192- Courage to Leap & Lead with John Saintignon, part 1

You've got courage to leap, courage to lead.

Be brave and be bold. Whoa, let it roar.

Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast, where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courage-consulting.com Where you can find all the episodes and other excellent resources, all at courage-consulting.com. Now here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman.

Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Tuesday show of Courage to Leap and Lead. And today I have a And you're probably saying to yourself, CB, you know nothing about sports. Why do you have a sports person on your show? Well, that is because he's had an amazing, courageous background. And we are here to discuss that today. And by the way, never underestimate CB because she will always surprise you. So let's go, John. Welcome.

Well, thank you. Thank you to everybody. And I'm going to call you Miss Bowman. There's many— you know, I was raised a certain way, so it's gonna be a little hard for me to call you by your first name.

Well, you know what? I was raised very similar to you, as you could see from— wait, it's here— military hat. Uh, my dad was in the military and My mom was even stricter than my dad, so I get it.

Yes.

But—

Same household. I understand.

But you have permission to call me CB anytime you're comfortable with it.

Okay.

So let's rock this out. Sean, tell me, tell me, let's start from the beginning. Tell us about your childhood, your parents. We wanna know it all. We want the inside scoop before we get to your amazing success story.

Well, I was adopted, and and I was given up for adoption. So I was born in Nuevo Casas Grandes in in Chihuahua, Mexico, and my my I was given up for adoption. I was essentially you know someone was looking for me. So it was my parents back in Arizona. They had wanted to adopt a child, and, uh, they've contacted someone back there. And when it came time for me to be adopted, I mean, I was— it was right away. They went and they picked me up. So I was raised in Tucson, Arizona.

And how old were you when you adopted?

4 days.

Oh, whoa, whoa. You know, I, I have to interrupt you here because I've heard so many adoption stories and it seems to me that adopted folks are the most successful in business. It's just, it's something I've been observing. It's like you guys have a special fire in your belly to succeed and it's so impressive.

You know, there's a there's there's a lot of theories behind being an adopted child right now that you'll you'll you could talk to any walks of life of two varying opinions on this. Some are very disappointed by how they were given up for adoption, and they suffer from that. Others, like myself, were a beneficiary of it. I was I got an education and was provided something that was. I mean, just put yourself in a position of thinking about like I have to give up somebody for adoption. You know, it's it's not some easy easy task here. Give whatever circumstances the circumstances were. It's not simple. And there are theories about what's called the adopted self. How how does that child? They feel like they have to prove themselves worthy. So maybe that has a lot to do with it. Um, by proving that they belong. Hmm.

So did you ever meet your birth parents?

Yeah, yeah. So, uh, about 8 years ago. So all through my, all through my journey, right, I, I wanted to— in my 20s, you know, I was wondering like, how come I'm, you know, somebody doesn't know who I am. I, I was told I was given up for adoption when I was— that I was adopted when I was around 10. And so you don't have any idea, at least I didn't.

Wait, you were adopted twice?

No, no, no, no. I was, I was told I was adopted when I was 10.

Oh, oh, okay.

I didn't know any— no one knew. There's no, no, no adopted children in my neighborhood. Nobody knew what this was. So So as as I grow older, I start to think like you know well you know why why wouldn't somebody want to aren't they curious you know to know who I am and it's a little bit just naive a little bit ego driven perhaps because here I am somewhat successful as a as an athlete and no one's coming to see who I. And so I was naive. And then, uh, then in my 30s, you start to think about like, I'm gonna go look. But now your life gets a little bit more complicated, you know. Now you're, now you're into child-rearing days. And then my 40s came, and I'm only thinking, okay, but now other life experiences are happening, and you just don't get the time. When I turned 50, I decided I'm going to take a DNA exam. I'm fascinated by this.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a little—

It's amazing stuff.

John, we— you're going in and out, and we're missing a good part of your story.

Okay.

So let's try it again. When you reached your 50s, Yes.

So when I reached my 50s, I decided I would take a DNA exam, and I became fascinated by that. Uh, I was so curious as to how this DNA results could, could say where I'm from, where to almost pinpoint exactly my heritage and where my biological parents were from. It was remarkable to me. So I became more and more curious, and then I decided I was going to go on a quest to go find them. But at the same time, I have no name. I have no photograph. I don't even know in the net now, like, where am I going to begin? So I recall some thoughts that my mom had said, like where, how this adoption began. And I recall her saying it was one of her employers that she had worked with for a long time. I took a random chance and contacted this individual. Now, there is a solid chance he was dead. There's no, no question. But lo and behold, he was still alive and, and offered me all the, the background story, which I had heard all my life, but He was from a colony in Nuevo Casas Grandes where Mormon colonies thrived. There are two in particular, and so my moms had said, "You know, hey, I want to adopt a child." He reached back to his community, and that's where they found an adopted kid. Well, I do speak to him over and over again, and essentially he just tells me, he's like, you just have to go. You're not going to understand anything until you're there. And so one day I was scouting a basketball game in Arizona, and I decided, what am I doing here scouting this game? I'm going to go retrace the steps of my of my parents who went to go get me. And I didn't know anybody, but that's one of the things I, I do. I don't, I don't know people. I, I make friends immediately. I reached out, and the, the welcoming, uh, people that were there that were so, so curious that somebody wanted to come back and look for their, their birth parent was remarkable. So I was welcomed with open arms. And met some incredible people. But at the same time, I'm not auditioning for a parent, but yet I don't have any name or or a photograph. So I am essentially hoping that maybe it's someone's gonna come out of the woodwork. And I come to realize, you know, that that could be someone's secret. Someone else has a different life now, or again being naive. How's somebody gonna just come out of nowhere just because I'm there? You know, it was it was beyond. So I left with the first time going thinking, okay, well at least I know maybe the hospital where I was born. It's a small community. I'll know maybe. The storyline of how a child, uh, came about. You know what it was, generally speaking, a young mother, uh, out of wedlock. Uh, Catholicism was strong, no abortion is gonna happen. Generally a girl maybe 14, 16 years of age gave it— gave a child and was given up for adoption immediately. And, uh, okay, so I kind of got the background story. And and a general understanding of the people and and the land, and I left it at that. And but meanwhile, went on radio, television, speaking engagements, trying to to talk to every and anyone who would have an idea that hey, there's this guy that was born on May sixth that. Is looking. Uh, nothing came about that first time. I took a DNA exam, a second one, got more information a different way, and— but no one was coming out on DNA exams. You get, you get a list of all the people who have taken the exam that are your relatives, and they're all 3rd, 4th, 5th cousin type thing. And so not nothing concrete. So I, I reach out to many people. The, the Mormon faith, uh, I reach out to their headquarters, and because they, they have tremendous history, plus they were— the Mormon colonies were there. But at the same time, I still don't have a name or anything to go by, so I end up Having this wonderful conversation, a senator comes to see me and is curious beyond belief. Wants to, wants to fascinated by the storyline, and he takes me kind of door to door, and it's a little awkward because here I am feeling like a like a an animal in a zoo essentially. Look at this guy. Do you think anybody? Do you know anyone who who you know might be his mother kind of thing? It was awkward, you know, and and I I kind of had to tell him. I was like, "This is gonna not prove any anything." First of all, they're scared of you, and I'm a stranger. This isn't gonna provide anything. So let me let me just get some more as best background I can get. And so we we went to talk to one of the doctors. There were only three in the time in the city, and one of them, his son was there and spoke to his son. And his son is a doctor as well. And he said, "Yeah, it's quite a tremendous possibility that that my dad delivered you, but I don't have any information on that." Ah, so okay. So here I have this DNA evidence of things, but not. Nothing concrete. But here's the best part. He proceeds to tell me a story. He says, 30 years ago, there was this gentleman that came, didn't speak any Spanish, and was looking for his mother, and had a little photograph, and went door to door, and stayed here for about 3 or 4 weeks, and found her. And I was like, God, what an amazing story. I don't have 3 to 4 weeks, but I can't do that, you know, kind of thing. But one more thing. Yeah. And so I leave with this understanding, like, maybe this isn't just gonna happen. I'm content. I know what I came for. I know exactly where I'm from. I got great friendships in the area, so it's okay. Well, I had, I had taken a third DNA exam, and in this third DNA exam, this, this results come back and it now has 2 ladies on there that say they're my first cousin nieces. Now, a niece is a child of a brother or a sister. So now I carefully manuscript an email to them, uh, telling them who I am, what I'm trying to do, would it be possible to have a phone conversation with them. They both graciously accept and allow me to have a phone conversation with them. They're hesitant, and they both say, you know, maybe you should speak to my dad.

Okay.

No problem. Time goes by, one day I get this phone call and it's their father. His name is David and David calls me and says immediately, he goes, I think I'm your brother.

Okay.

Again, I'm not auditioning for parents or anything so I say, tell me why. And he proceeds to tell me, he says, you know, about 30 years ago I crossed the border. I didn't speak any English. I went door to door. And I'm, I'm just letting him have this conversation, and, and, and, but in my mind I'm like, you're the guy. You're the guy that I heard this story about. So he proceeds to continue to go on. He goes, yeah, I found our mother. And after I found our mother, I asked, do I have any brothers and sisters? And he said— she said, yes, you have a sister located over here. Uh, she was given up for adoption, but she's here locally in Mexico. Uh, you have a sister and a brother here, right here with me. So he met them. And then she said, you have one brother born May 6th In the United States, but I don't know if he's in Las Vegas, Phoenix, or Tucson, Arizona. Now, now I'm flabbergasted. And so he proceeds to tell me that he gathers up his siblings, crosses the border, and goes searching for me with all of them. Now, I don't know Had they been able to find me again, here I am in my 20s. It's it's naive of me to say like if they had said something to me that I would have been welcoming and and and wanting that. You know, you're ego driven in your 20s and so on. And here I am, this athlete. It just wouldn't have. It wouldn't have probably been any good. But once I heard all that information, I told him, "You're you're the guy in the story. This is remarkable. I heard all about it." And yeah, he knew he knew who that doctor was. And so so now I planned a reunion, and I went back and I met them all. I My mother and father had passed away already, but my birth mother's sister was still alive. And I met her and listened to her tell me of how her— of how it was, you know. They were very poor. They were on a ranch type of a situation. Their father was barely able to make any ends meet. Another baby being born here. Wow. Would have been possibly not fed well enough to survive. And so adoption was what he told her to do. And, uh, so, but it was, it was, it was wonderful to hear. And, and then to hear how they met. And, uh, then I met my father's nephew and To hear him's his side and telling the story, you know that that my father was in the rodeo and died an early death. A horse landed on him, and but nevertheless, to see these photos, to see things, you know it's it was almost like an Oprah Winfrey show at one point. You know, it was like now all of a sudden here I have five brothers and sisters, twenty nieces and nephews. They're all together. They're— we have this hotel that I'm staying at. The whole town knows why I'm in town. The general manager of the hotel says the lobby is all yours. Shut the doors, I'm out. No one's going to be in here. This is all yours to have a conversation. I mean, remarkable stuff. And, uh, so that's That's the the journey I took by just not knowing, you know. But I it's taking a chance, you know. It's what I've done my whole life, you know. Does it take courage to do that? Yeah, you bet. Because they have to think about like what if what if they don't want to meet you? Okay. Now I was comfortable in my own skin, but you don't have to know me. I I just wanted to know where I was from. But, but what if, you know? And they were thinking the same thing. What if I don't want to? They had survivor guilt, of all things. They were so, so emotional that I was given away. And, and here I am telling them, I'm the beneficiary of this. Trust me. I mean, I know as a parent today, I know, like, Man, that decision to give up a child is a serious one, man. I don't, I don't know how they—I don't know how to do that. But I'm, I'm the beneficiary of this. I got an education. I got to do other things. I got to because if you look back at what possibly could have been the life, it would have been totally different. No, no, no doubt about it. You know, so, so that's uh. That's in a nutshell. You know, there's a whole lot more detail on that, but it is something that was just totally remarkable. You know, so I've given many, many talks on that, and even in airplanes, you know, just to just to share stories with different people, you know, and get their emotions on it. You know, because it's it's quite remarkable after all that time to find somebody.

Well, John, it's rare that I'm speechless, and it's rare that I'm quiet this long, but that is one heck of a journey.

Yeah, it was, it was. And still to this day, I mean, I'm in contact with them. I met them all. I made sure I went to their respective homes when I was with them and gave them all my love. I mean, I wasn't there long, you know, 2, 3 3, 4 days max is all I could— that all I could do, mainly because of the, of the emotional circus, you know. Like, I'm meeting people and I don't know who they are, you know. So it takes a while for me to calculate, like, who, who are you? I mean, because I need to know, I need to categorize in my own brain first, uh, an immediate family member, you know, so that I can digest this information.

And, you know, that's something that people don't think about. They think, uh, you know, you hear these stories on TV how people are reunited and you think, oh, wonderful, it's good to see you and everything. But they don't think of the mental agility that you go through in saying, wait, this is a blood relative and What role did they play in their lives? And what role will they play in my life now? And, you know, all of this stuff goes on. I don't get how you were able to process all of this.

As I told you, in my earlier years, I was not able to. I don't— but in my 50s, when I turned 50, I was ready for this adventure. I literally went unseen, met people that I had never met before in my life, go to a city I've never been to, and and to top it off, I drove because I wanted to reenact the same same method that my own mom dad did. And and it's a small it's a small town rural you know kind of thing. And but but boy, the people I met. You know, I was given like a key to the city. I was given just tremendous— a basketball tournament was named after me, you know, all because I'm this guy that was from there who came back. I gave a talk on my book while I was there, and I mean, 50, 75 people showed up and And, uh, but they're all curious, you know, as to why I'm there. You know, they, they had— they want to know this story, you know. And, uh, and, and at the same time, I talked to some older people there, and I asked them, I was like, you know, I was kind of shocked that no one came to see me. And this one gentleman put it in, in fantastic perspective for me. How are they— how is anyone supposed to reach You know, there was there was no means of that kind of communication, and and see you. I mean, this was poverty. How are they going to do that? But mean, and and it was it was unique perspective. You're absolutely right. How are they going to find me?

So your adoptive parents, were they from the same area as your birth parent?

No, no, not at all. I mean, it was just because of my, my birth— or my adopted mother working with that gentleman that that connection came.

Wow, unbelievable. And, and do you have children?

Yeah, I have 2 sons. Yeah.

Now, how, how did you explain— so did you— my questions in my head, I've got to get them straight. Yeah. When you went on this journey, how old were your children?

Uh, let's see, they're 25 now, so, uh, they're still in high school, maybe. Probably, probably before high school. That was 8 years ago, so, uh, yeah, they were, they were still in their teens.

What did they think about you doing this? And first of all, did you ever tell them that you were adopted?

Oh yeah, yeah. I don't, I don't never hide the fact that I was adopted. I mean, that was something I carried with me the entire time.

And what did they think about the fact that their dad was adopted? Did that make a difference in their life? Did it make them stronger, curious? What?

Not, you know, I think you'd probably have to venture having that conversation with them exactly, as they're now 25 and 21 years old. They're probably more mature to be able to explain that.

Mm-hmm.

I, I did. I personally didn't see anything different other than they knew that I didn't carry that as, as something negative. I carried as a badge of honor that, that I, I constantly told them, you know, that I was adopted, and because that's what I was, um, I didn't hide it from them. So, uh, and when they knew that I was doing this Hey, they, they know that it's a heck of a journey, a risk that you're doing. Yeah. And I told them, I was like, there are— there's a 100% chance I'm not gonna know anything, but at the very least, I'll know where I'm from. I'll, I'll know exactly.

So for them, this was also a journey because now they'll get to know about their birth grandparents.

No question, they'll know a lot of things. They— it was a bit overwhelming, you know. I can tell because what you know as your own family member, you know, now has now come with more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I told him, I was like, nothing's— nothing substantially is going to For the moment, it seems like it's overwhelming. You're going to get a lot of attention because they now have a new nephew, you know. They, they're going to give it to you for a while. But the fact still remains, there's been over 50 years of this, you know. We haven't seen each other. That was my first time meeting them.

Did your, did your children go with you?

No. This was just me, me alone, just, uh, on my solo quest, just to, just to discover and look for this on my own. It was to this day the most I've ever done, you know. I mean, it was— it's— I had— I went with no name and no photograph.

Now, you— your adoptive parents, are they from the same race and same ethnic background, or are they different?

Yeah, they were different. My, my father was, was white and from Ohio and had moved to Arizona because of the weather, uh, asthma-related. And, uh, my mother was of Mexican-American descent from Arizona herself, and they, they met there and fell in love and got married and, and then discovered my mother couldn't have children, and that's when they began the adopted journey. They first adopted my sister, and, uh, she's 5 years older than me. And then it was my turn, and then that's, that's all it was, you know. It was just— that was— that made up our family.

And so you found out when you were 10 that you were adopted. Why did they decide to wait till you were 10? How— why was 10 the magical number?

I'm not sure. You know, I've been asked that a lot by a lot of parents. You know, I'm not— I don't know when the right time is. You know, I don't know if they even knew.

Mm-hmm.

It was just one day, uh, my mother just decided that it was something that she needed to say, you know, and, and whether or not I could digest that information. I mean, as great as she's explaining what adoption is, I literally went front with that information to the front of my house where I had a baseball and a glove. A neighbor comes out, we're gonna play catch, and I say to him, hey, I'm adopted. Okay, he doesn't know because what's that? And I explained it to him, but again, no one knows what that is. There's no one adopted in this neighborhood? You know, what does this mean? Now, where I find out is when I go to school. I tell one teacher, and one teacher is praising the fact that I'm adopted. That's fantastic, you have some loving parents, it's amazing. Tell another teacher, oh, I feel so sorry for you. Um, gosh, that's That's terrible. And that's where I start to find out, like, there are different perspectives on this, on this unique subject, but it's how do I take it?

Yes.

I'm the one that— again, all my parents wanted to do was make sure that I had a private education so that I would have choices in life. So they sacrificed everything they could. All the other kids go to public school, but I went to a private one. And it made all the difference. You know, it was, yes, I get this opportunity to play basketball in life, but not without doing my homework. Not without getting grades. You know, I couldn't play any of that without that.

I love how strict they were.

Yeah, no, my, uh, my, my mom and dad, uh, only had a 6th and 6th and 8th grade education. And so they valued that. And, uh, that's why I tell you, Miss Bowman, this is why I have to call you that, because this is how I was raised. You know, there, there is respect levels. You're never gonna cross it no matter how old they are. You treat everyone this way. But this, this adventure of my academia was— Every day when I would come home, my mom wanted to do homework with me. And it was so that she could be, hey, I need to get past, you know, 8th grade here. And living vicariously through what I was doing. The athletic side of things, yes, that's a go achieve, go find your dreams, go do this. But boy, she was really curious about— she missed out. On the academic, on the going to school. And, uh, so wonderful for that, you know, to, to be a part and let them be a part of the, of the— they're the ones that made the sacrifice, and they're the ones that changed the evolution of my life.

But so was your sister adopted from the same birth mother?

No, uh, totally different. But, um, but But she had an idea, uh, who her birth parent, birth mother was. Uh, I did, I did not. And, um, but she did.

What age was she told that she was adopted?

No, I don't know. A good question. I'm not sure. Probably around the same time, to be honest. Yeah, I, I don't know. I mean, I, I think it's, as a parent now, you, you You gauge how each child is going to take in certain information.

Are you, are you close to your sister?

Oh yeah, close. Yeah, yeah, 100%. She had a different view of this, you know, for— she didn't want anything to do with her birth parents at all. And, and, and when I wanted to go search for mine She was of the opinion, why? You know, like they didn't want you kind of thing, or or maybe they're going to hurt you by saying we want nothing to do with you. And again, I was of the opinion like I want to know where I'm from, and that's that.

What age was she adopted?

At birth as well, I believe.

So it's very interesting how 2 children from the same parents respond almost like the mirror image of each other, flip-flop.

Yes, it's each child's journey. Uh, again, on, on a number of subjects with, with adopted children, you know, you'll, you'll find that Many of them carry a certain way of being left, given up. Why?

Is your sister as successful as you are?

Oh yeah, probably more so. Yeah.

So, okay, that is one incredible story of courage, bravery, and I want to say forgiveness, but I want to say more respect. Absolutely. Um, respect for what your birth mom had to go through, the sacrifices she had to make in order to let you survive and flourish.

Yes.

So after you— well, your success started before you met your mom, your birth mom. Tell us about that.

Well, before I tell you about that, I need to take a break. So let me take a break and I'll come right back to you.

Okay, ladies and gentlemen, hold on for part 2. All right, hold on.