197- Courage to Leap & Lead with Lisa Lutoff-Perlo and Sarah McArthur, part 1

You've got courage to leap, courage to lead. Be brave and be bold. Whoa, let it roar. Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast, where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courage-consulting.com. Where you can find all the episodes and other excellent resources, all at courage-consulting.com. Now here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman.

Hello, ladies and gentlemen. This is CB, Courage to Leap and Lead. I'm so glad you can join us today for another— I'm going to stop saying special guest because All of my guests are so special, but today I have 2 power-packed, kick-ass women on. And I just love it when I have these guests on because many of us just don't realize how powerful women are. And we are. So watch out. So today I have 2 co-authors of an amazing book called Making Waves. So I want them to introduce themselves. First, I'm going to ask Sarah to introduce herself because I've known Sarah the longest. Sarah, please tell us about you and who you are.

Well, so great to be here, CB and Lisa. It's so good to be doing this with you and to have— one of the things I do is I write with people and to have supported you in writing your story. It's so inspirational and for so many people. So, so pleased to be able to do that. I'm also executive producer of a documentary about another great leader who happens to be a woman, Frances Hesselbein, and then a thought partner and advisor to lots of different leaders Alan Mulally being one, CEO of— former CEO of Boeing and Ford. And the last thing I do, which is always fun and which is how I got to meet you, CB, is I was the COO of— CEO, whatever we want to call me— of Marshall Goldsmith Inc. So executive coach extraordinaire. So got to work with him for a number of years. So, so happy to be here.

Well, I think you underplayed your role there. You were the powerhouse behind all of it, and we all knew it, and we all celebrated you.

Oh, thank you.

And Lisa, tell us about you.

Thank you, CB. It's such a pleasure to be with you today, and Sarah, such an honor to be doing this with you. I had the good fortune of meeting Sarah through my publisher, Matt Holt, and I had been for many years looking for someone that I could write this book with who got me, who knew how to tell my story, who cared about me and my story. And that was the wonderful Sarah MacArthur. So it has been such a joy working with her and a joy being with— for both of us to be with you today, CB. I spent nearly 40 years in the hospitality industry, the cruise industry, the Royal Caribbean Group. Almost 10 of those years was as president and CEO of Celebrity Cruises. I started at the very bottom. I always say sales rep to CEO. It was a 30-year journey. And, you know, the book really talks about the lessons I learned along my way and how I rose to the top using smarts, heart, and courage, which I know is something near and dear to your heart, CB. And it's a pleasure to be with you here today. I left the company, oh, I think 3 weeks ago, and I've started yet another adventure that I'm sure we'll talk about during our conversation today.

I love it. I love it. Okay. So the one question I was gonna start with was, how did you meet? But you met through a publisher, which is pretty exciting.

Yes.

So, okay, let's start from the very beginning with you, Lisa. Tell us, first of all, how did you get interested in the hospitality industry? What's your background? How were you raised? Tell us about your parents.

I was born and raised in a very small fishing town in Massachusetts, Gloucester, Massachusetts, home of The Perfect Storm, home of CODA, wonderful movie. I hope you all get to see it. Sweet movie, all filmed in my hometown. So I grew up on the ocean, on the water. Most people in my town were Italian or Portuguese, and they were all fishermen. Dads, uncles, fathers, grandfathers, everybody made their living on the water fishing except my family. We weren't Italian or Portuguese, but my parents owned coffee shops and restaurants. So I was in the hospitality business starting at 6 years old. And it's so serendipitous that I ended up in an industry providing hospitality on the ocean. So I think it was meant to be, but it was never a plan and it was never intentional. But my life just— Sort of ended, sort of ended up that way. And my parents always owned restaurants when I was growing up. So, um, it seems like I really loved hospitality, engaging with people, making people happy, creating memories. And I got to make a 40-year living out of that.

Amazing. I was just gonna say, it's, it's sort of like a perfect storm for you, right?

Yeah, I guess all of these things converged. It happened. Yeah, in a good way. It was a perfect storm in a good way.

Absolutely. Now, Sarah, I— as long as I've known you, I don't know anything about you. How did you get into writing? Tell us about your family background.

Um, family background. So, uh, born and raised sort of in San Diego, California, um, but really raised more in a Volkswagen van traveling around the world for quite a long time. And so—

Wait, you were a hippie?

Well, I was a little girl, and my mother was— I call— she was, I guess you would call her a hippie. And my, my stepfather was a traveler. He's, um, uh, as much like Marshall Goldsmith in traveling as anybody I've ever met. Just can travel anywhere, anytime.

Wow.

So yeah, raised, raised in a van traveling around the world. So when Frances Hesselbein asked that question, What do you see when you look out the window that's visible but not yet seen by others? I'm sitting in— I see myself sitting in a van looking out the window, watching, you know, countries go by. And got into writing. Just have always been a reader and a writer. And I'm always— I was talking with somebody the other day about how It's like the story is writing itself all around me all the time. It's, it's, as a writer, I don't write so much like think of something and start writing it. Something is happening and it's the story is writing itself. So to get to work with Lisa on writing her story, the story. It was writing itself as we were, as we were working on the project. For her to have me go on a cruise, you know, the story was writing itself. I was on the cruise and the story was her story. I could see it forming itself. And then we turned that into my experience in that and her experience into Making Waves.

Well, but okay, so what did you study in school?

So they asked when I got to University of Oregon— I'm a Duck— and when they, when they asked, uh, what would you like to major in, really I said, you know, I can read and I can write in English really well. I'll major in English and environmental studies because I love, I love that too. So I majored in English.

Well, you will love when We were just in Arizona and we went to see Frank Lloyd Wright's house. Environmental studies personified. It was just mind-boggling. Mind-boggling.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. House on a Rock. Have you been there in Wisconsin?

No, this is the first one I've been to of his work other than the Guggenheim, of course. And I was just blown away. I used to be an interior designer, so everything had a special meaning for me, and I could just feel his presence there. It was just— it was scary, actually, in a way. Yeah.

Yeah, where he just sort of turns the space into a— it's like a living space, but it's part of, you know, the land, the landscape.

Yeah, it's not so much a space as it is an environment. In my day, we would say it was a happening. Okay, so you guys decided to write a book together. Lisa, when you interviewed Sarah, what, what made you think she was the right person for you?

You know how you just know? You know, you know, you know when you know. If you know, you know. Isn't that the phrase now? If you know, you know. And it was, yeah, no, it was, it was the first conversation that I had with Sarah. I just knew that she was the person I was looking for. And I was so grateful to Matt. And when I met Matt, you know, I, I've always been the type of person that I didn't know if I would get a publisher, if someone would pick up the book or pick up my story. My agent worked for a while to try to make that happen for me. Not a lot of people knew about the cruise industry when I first started out, probably 6 years ago. I think it was from, from beginning to end was a 6-year journey. 2 years of it was COVID. And of course, the world shut down and we shut down and my— the idea of my book shut down. But when we finally came back and I got it into proposal stage through the help of somebody else, I was talking to Matt Holt at Bambella Books, who reached out to Jan Miller at Dupree Miller. And said, I'd like to talk to her. I think I'd like to tell her story, but I'd like to meet her. And so I did. And I had a great connection with Matt. He's a small publishing house, perfect for me. I didn't, you know, I didn't want to be some little tiny fish in a really, really big, big, big pond and just like this big publishing house. But he came from a big publishing house and he took a genuine interest in me and my story. And we had a great connection. So I think based on the fact that he knew me and he knew I was struggling to find someone that could help me write my story, He called me one day and said, I think I have someone for you. I want to introduce you to Sarah MacArthur. And he was right. And so just based on that brief interaction and encounter I had with Matt, he knew Sarah and I would be a perfect match. And from the moment I spoke with Sarah, I was really excited about working with her. And I was so grateful to her that she came on this journey of writing the book with me. And And I was— I wasn't wrong from the moment I met her and up until this day, and I'm sure for a long time in the future, I will just count her among the most extraordinary people I've ever met.

Well, we know Sarah's extraordinary, but I want to get to the bottom line because many of us want to write a book. I mean, I knew that I wanted— that was on my bucket list, and I thought I had written chapters in other books. And this one, I just wanted my name on it, right? Just to say I could do it.

Yeah.

And but I did think about getting a writing partner, and I know somebody who did get one, and it didn't turn out well. So did you ask Sarah any questions that led you to have the faith that you had in her?

Maybe you remember better than me, Sarah. I think what I, what I tried to do is just tell a little bit of my story and who I am and what I was trying to accomplish with the book. And—

And what did you say you were trying to accomplish?

I, you know, it was never on my bucket list, unlike you, CB, to write a book. I never thought I would be a published author. It was the furthest thing from my mind, just like I never thought I'd be president and CEO of Celebrity Cruises. It was the furthest thing from my mind. But my life just sort of happened, and I did things, and it took me in a direction. And people kept telling me, you really needed to write a book. And when we were talking about why, it I wanted to share my journey and the lessons I learned because so many people are going through the same thing. They're trying to think about what is important in leadership. How do you align people around a common vision? You know, how did you make it in a male-dominated industry? How did you go from selling to CEO? I wanted young women to learn from it. I wanted men to learn from it. And I wanted I wanted people to know that it's messy, it's hard, it takes time, it takes commitment. It doesn't just, you know, I'm president and CEO of Celebrity. Isn't that wonderful? Well, yeah, it is. But, you know, these are all the things I had to do to get there. It didn't just happen. I didn't start close to the top and rise to the top. I, I did it the hard way. And I wanted people to understand that and that if I could do it, you could do it. And that's You know, that's what I wanted to get across in my book, and that's what I explained to Sarah. And, um, you know, she and I had a really nice conversation about that.

Sarah, why did you accept Lisa as a client? I mean, let's face it— I'm sorry, my voice is going in and out with allergies. Sarah, you know some really high-level people, not counting Lisa. Because that's a separate story.

You'll need to unlock your iPhone first.

But Sarah, my cell phone thought I said, sorry, Sarah.

I know. I talk. I say my name is Sarah, and Siri will sometimes start talking on my phone.

So you've known CEOs of major companies and leaders in the leadership space, management space. What made you say yes to this woman you probably had never heard of before, in a space you've never— probably never explored before? And what in the world gave you the confidence?

Yeah.

That you can do great with Lisa?

Yeah, I know exactly how it happened. Matt Holt, I've known for a good 20 or 25 years. He used to work at Josie Bass/Wiley. So some of the first books that I got to participate in, edit in the leadership area, were with Josie Bass, and Matt was, was part of that. And over the years, we've kept in touch and, you know, we've worked on different projects. Closely or not so closely, but in the same, you know, knowing each other, were close by. And I went to meet, um, went to Nashville and had lunch with him and, you know, catching up. And, and he said, um, do you write books with people? And I said, sure.

Wait a second, where are you living now?

I'm in Easton, Pennsylvania.

So you just up and went to Nashville?

I up and went to Nashville for a 100 Coaches event, a Marshall Goldsmith 100 Coaches event. And it was a 2-day event. And it was my first event as a participant after, you know, a long time of, um, being the, uh, person coordinating all of these events. And so I spent a lot of time while I was there really helping coordinate the events. I wasn't participating that much. And so I was tired. And so I called Matt up and asked him if he would go to lunch. And he said yes. And so we went to lunch, great lunch in Nashville. And he, you know, asked me what I was doing, asked him what he was doing. And he said, do you write books with people? And I said, sure. And he said, well, I have someone Who you might want to meet. And then he told me a little bit about Lisa. One, I know Matt. Matt's fabulous. Matt Holt is amazing. I love him. He's he's he knows what he's doing. He's so straightforward, great heart, and so real. He doesn't sugarcoat, but he doesn't. He's also he tells the truth with love, which I really appreciate. And so then Lisa and I connected. On the phone, and for me, I I have worked with a number of of really wonderful leaders, and Lisa is one. And so what I've come to is that I work with those who are. going towards a bright future. So working together towards a bright future. And I do my best, and I really don't— I have not, but I've not had to work with anybody who's not in that arena in a very long time, who's not working together towards a bright future. So I talked with Lisa for I don't know how long, maybe 15 minutes or so that first time. And I could feel who she was by what she said, that, okay, this is good. I want to do this if we can do this. And I didn't necessarily have the confidence. And that's the thing about Lisa.

Why didn't you have the confidence? I mean, you've done this so many times and you're incredibly successful.

I always go into Situations, new situations with new people. I don't know. I'm uncertain. I don't know that it's going to work out necessarily, but I'm going to try it. And so far, so good. It's been, it's been great. The things that have worked out have been amazing, and the things that have not worked out, for the best that they did not. And so I talked with Lisa, and I just knew that this she was someone who I really wanted to help share her story because she is one of those people and one of those leaders who is leading us in this positive direction, in a positive way, of course, with love, courage, heart, and smarts. But she's also— she's leading us in a positive direction, she's bringing all of us with her. She's inclusive. She leads from the heart. She— I have never, I don't think in my life, maybe Ala Molali, worked with someone who is so such a hard worker. I mean, they work as hard as anybody on their team, and they're, they're really in they're really working hard. And so, um, when she says, you know, she got to that, um, you know, uh, sales to CEO— when she got to CEO, it wasn't like, okay, now I'm at CEO, this is great, look at, look at them all doing their thing. When Lisa got to CEO, she continued to work as hard and probably harder than she ever had Before that. So to support, um, her story and sharing it with as many people as possible is just, um, exactly what I want to be doing with my life.

Is this the first woman that you've worked with?

Oh no, no, no, no, no. Frances Hesselbein.

Oh yes.

I, I worked, um, I'm editor-in-chief of Leader to Leader Journal. And so, um, and also worked with Francis quite a bit before we, um, became co-editors of the journal together in— I think that was in 2021 or so.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So have definitely worked with lots of women, lots of men, and some are just extraordinary, uh, leaders who, to me, what— I mean, there's a lot of things that can make an extraordinary leader. There's a lot of qualities that make extraordinary leaders. And what I love about Lisa, besides everything else, Lisa, is that Lisa lifts everyone with her. Just that's who she is. So as she's changing and growing and, you know, things, things are happening in her life around her. She includes everyone who's around her, and we're all lifted with her. It's just an amazing, um, you know, the opposite of scarcity.

Mm-hmm.

Outlook and way of leading that I just, I want to support as much as I possibly can.

Sarah, do you think that women lead differently than men?

I think different people are different. I think that every difference makes a difference. I don't think I know enough. I don't think I have enough research in my, in my pocketbook to, to say. I know great leaders who are men. I know great leaders who are women. Um, I just take it on the individual more than I do on the genders.

Lisa, you said you started in sales?

Yes.

How in the world did you go from sales to CEO in a male-dominated industry? Yeah, first of all, First question, how did you survive?

Well, it's interesting because, you know, having had so many different positions in the company and having advocates— Wait, wait, wait.

Do you have brothers?

I do not.

Oh, this is really good then. No men around you other than your dad to influence you. And you as a woman took it all on and said, let's go.

Well, it's interesting because I think my mom is really the one who influenced me most because she was— she was, and to this day, God bless her, at 87, is still not a typical mom. You know, she was— you know, I was born in 1957. My age is public record. So it's like I'm not giving any secrets away. And I had a mom who just was not that typical mom. And she always showed me a different way for women and probably taught me from the day I was born that girls can do anything. And because she wasn't a typical mom and I was the first of 3 daughters, I sort of took on that role, you know, that leadership. People say, when did you know you were a leader? And I say, when I was age 2 and my first sister was born, because it's honest to God the truth. I thought I was the boss and I was in charge and I was going to take care of her every day. And, and then my next sister was born when I was 14 and I did the same thing. And both those sisters— I lost one during COVID as it's in the book, and worst tragedy of my life. But, um, she, you know, my sisters resented probably every minute of that because I was always bossing them around and telling them what to do. But, um, and then my dad had 5 sisters. 2 wives and 4 daughters, you know. Oh my God. And yet he was— God bless him and God rest his soul— he was probably the worst girl dad, like, ever, because, you know, again, back in 1957. So he's not like a modern-day girl dad, you know, hashtag girl dad. So, um, yeah, so it was really my mom who, um, told us we could do anything. And so I probably always thought that. And, and, and if I didn't think it, because I'm probably— I don't have that big of an ego, um, at least I was willing to try. And And I think for me, that really sums up my career. And I have to give a lot of men credit for my career because there were no women in those roles where they were sponsoring and advocating for me. So my first foray into something different than sales was kind of forced upon me by the gentleman who was leading sales and marketing, who saw more potential in me than I probably saw in myself and moved me into marketing.

And then I want to stop you here because a lot of young women don't realize what we went through as women. During our time, women didn't support each other as much as they do today. We didn't have a choice but to rely on men to support us and push us forward. And I know that's shocking to a lot of young female listeners. And I don't think enough credit is given to men of our generation.

Well, it's true. So you either had women who might not have been supporting other women, or there just were no women. Yeah, right. So if I was going to get—

Oh, wait, and there's also the group that said, just me.

Right. And that's so not me because it's, you know, a lot of people, it is just about them, men and women. But with women, when it's just about them, it's worse because there aren't enough of us and we need other women lifting other women up and giving women opportunities, which is what I really worked to do when I was, especially when I was president and CEO throughout my entire career. But influence and power is really important. so that when you are the decision maker that can actually make things happen. And so when I became president and CEO as the first woman, that was the 3rd position in my company that I held that I was the first woman to do it. And it was the one, of course, that was the highest level. And I said to myself that this is a big responsibility, obligation, and honor to be able to now help other women accomplish their dreams as well, because I had accomplished mine. And I worked really hard to improve gender balance in our brand and in our company as soon as I assumed that role. But I mean, back to how I did it, I, I had men who believed in me in positions where they could help me achieve different things. And I learned every aspect of our business. I moved around the company a lot. I held 3 positions no other woman had held. And I never felt that gender was a problem in getting those opportunities. But once I did get those opportunities, I did find that my gender created a lot of skepticism with all of the men I was leading or working beside. I was the only woman there. I was a woman—

Okay, okay, okay, hold on. You're going too fast for us. First of all, did you have to deal with any sexual harassment?

No. I did not.

Why?

I don't know, but I did not. And I, um, I did not. Um, you know, every once in a while you get some knucklehead that says something stupid, then you just shut them down immediately. You know, they say something inappropriate and you're just like, not around me, buddy. Don't say that. Not good. Not okay. And it never happened again. Um, and I did not, um, I did not— I, I, I suffered skepticism for the roles I was given And it was, it, you know, it could have been based on my gender. It could have been based on the fact that I was never in those, in those areas of the business before. So people didn't think I was— I deserved the role I was given. And so I—

So how did you deal with that? Stop going so fast.

We want details. I'm sorry, CB. I'm going to slow down. How did I deal with that? When I was put into positions where people would look at me and a lot of other men were in these areas of the company and more than likely believed that if those positions were available, they should have gotten them because they were subject matter experts, right? Those— they were functional experts. They were in that space. And so some of it was overcoming that, people feeling that they should have gotten the role versus me. And some of it was—

And what did you do to, to help them overcome it?

Well, I did the same thing For the next example that I'm gonna give, which is people were like, well, you never did this, so why are you my boss? You never drove a ship. And here's what I, what I did every time I encountered that. I had— I told them they were right. I didn't know as much as they did about certain things. I told them I never drove a ship. I've never fixed an engine. I've never run one of the ships. I've never been a hotel director. But And I respect what you know and what you've done and how valuable that knowledge is and that experience is. Now, maybe you could cut me a little slack and realize that there's got to be some reason I'm here, and that maybe I, I know things and can do things that you can't. And so can't we just develop a relationship of mutual respect and help support each other? And let's, let's be really successful together. Most— in 90% of the instances that worked. And where it didn't work, then those people chose to leave, or I chose for them to leave. And I built a team that would support me and did acknowledge that there's got to be some reason I'm here, folks, and, um, and let's get on with it. And so I, you know, I, I just tried to create an environment of mutual respect.

I love that. I absolutely— that is Amazing advice.

Thank you.

Yeah, so yeah, I don't know if you realize how powerful that advice was because you had the courage to say, yeah, you're right, I don't know.

Yeah.

And this is what I do now. That is so powerful. Okay, so you started out in one position and then men mentored you and, uh, helped move you up the line, were you scared?

Yeah, sometimes. But courage isn't the absence of fear. Courage is suppressing it and succeeding in spite of it. And, and don't think that every position— and, and my, one of my chapters is Be Careful What You Wish For, CB. And, and I remember when I finally, 30 years later, after asking 3 times for my president and CEO role, And I finally got it. And I remember it was December 6th, 2014. I walked into that corner office and I, and I stood behind the desk and I looked around and I'm like, holy crap, what do I do now? And I, and I remember thinking, okay, you're the first woman. You can't be the last. Don't screw this up. Right.

What pressure. What pressure! Holy cow, right? I know. Yeah. Okay, so wait a second. You decided that you wanted to be CEO and president, and you just let it slip that you kept asking. Who were you asking? How did you ask? And how did it finally happen?

Oh goodness. So, um, I asked the guy that was the ultimate decision maker, the chairman and CEO. But here's the other interesting part of the story. The first time I asked—

Wait, how many times?

Yeah.

Okay. You're going to answer that. How many times did you ask? 3. 3.

Okay. Okay. So the first time I asked, it was after the gentleman who was my boss, who was the president and CEO of Celebrity, was leaving the company to go work, be the CEO someplace else. He recommended me for the job to the chairman and CEO. He said, you need to give Lisa this job. She's ready. She loves this brand. She helped build this brand. You need to give her the job. And he didn't. So he gave me a position that was a really big position. It was a bigger position than I had, and he felt it was a great consolation prize. It was a promotion, more responsibility, but it wasn't president and CEO. So I did what I always do. I let him know how I felt.

What did you say? What did you say?

I'm disappointed, but I'm not going to give up and I'm going to take this new challenge and I am going to show you what I'm capable of. And the silver lining in the— in that story is that I then started being able to work with him much more closely. He then became a mentor to me and took much more interest in me than he had previously. So that was the good thing, except 2 years later, the gentleman that was then my new boss, who was the president and CEO of that brand, was going into a different position in the company, and he recommended me for the job and said, you got to give Lisa that She's ready. She's been, you know, built this brand for 20-something years.

So you didn't hold any resentment to the guy who got the job over you?

You supported him? No, sure. I worked alongside this guy for decades. I, you know, it was— I had no resentment at all. I was happy for him, but I just wanted more for myself. I mean, there's a difference in that, right? And I think that that's an important distinction, and I'm glad you mentioned it. So after— so, so the second president and CEO came in and said, okay, I just recommended you for the job. Now, now go see, go see him.

Hold on, guys. Let me just turn this off. Okay. Yes.

Okay. So I go in, I sit down, I say, okay, you know, now's, now's my chance. And he looked at me and said, I just don't see it. Oh, and I'm like, I said, this is the second time the 2 men that have vacated these positions recommended me for this job. He's like, I know, I just don't think you're ready.

And he had been grooming you and working with you.

I know.

So what did he feel that he failed at doing?

I—

well, so he said, maybe I'm the idiot. I said, I'm glad you said that.

Exactly.

I didn't— so I didn't have to. And I told him I was frustrated, I didn't understand, and he couldn't really give me an answer. And that was the other thing. So, um, I just, you know, I just picked myself up by my bootstraps and went back. And, and I did, you know, there's another chapter in my book called Watch Me Prove You Wrong. And I just went about my business and continued to do the best I could.

And again, without resentment, without anger?

No, no, no, no. I would not say without resentment. But listen, I channeled that resentment and used it for motivation. So I, I took a negative feeling about it and I channeled it in a positive way because I've been described as a relentless optimist. And I try to come at everything. Okay, now stop.

How do you do that? You're in the midst of angst and upset and anger and frustration, and you just want to like, uh, and you then stop and say, okay, channel this to do something good. I don't believe you, Lisa.

How in the world can you do that? Because I knew it wouldn't serve me well. Listen, I'm not saying I didn't have those feelings, but I put them to one side and I didn't let anyone see them.

Yeah, but how do you do that? How? Tell us the secret.

So Francis Hesselbein said—

Thank you, Sarah. Go ahead. You're welcome. Thank you.

And Marshall just put it on a post the other day. If I, as a leader, if I can't control myself, how could I be expected to control others? And that's what Lisa's getting at here, is she was controlling herself and her emotions and channeling what could be negative, those negative feelings, into motivating herself. Watch me prove you wrong. I'm gonna— watch me prove you wrong. I am great for this position of CEO. And she did prove whoever that was wrong.

Yeah, yeah.

Got to, you know, over some time, got to that position.

Okay, so to dive a little bit more into controlling yourself. How the hell do you do that? I mean, like, I really want to know the finite details of what is it you say to yourself? Do you go jogging someplace? Or how can you manage that emotion?

I say all kinds of different things to myself. And, and I— and what, you know, you know those comics that you see where the bubble is in their head? But what they—

Yes, yes. That's what I want to know.

What is that bubble?

Okay, the bubble. I don't, I don't know if this— what, how, what rated show you have, CB, but the bubble—

Fully rated okay.

Bubble is like, I want to scream and strangle you. And the outwardness is like, okay. Um, and I— and, and what's really interesting is what he said in an interview, maybe a couple years later, when he was being interviewed about that situation where he finally said yes. And I remember him saying, she let me know exactly how she felt. So I don't want, I don't want to mislead people and think that I didn't say what was on my mind, but that I did it in a way that was not what was really going on in my head, what I wanted to say, but what I felt was appropriate to say.

Can you give us an example?

Yeah, sure. I told him that I didn't understand. I told him I was frustrated. I told him I didn't get it, how he could say that to me after 2 men had put their support behind me. And they were men that held the position and knew anybody else that could be in contention, in contention for this position, and still put me at the top of the list. And why he didn't agree with them was frustrating to me. And, and but yet, there was nothing I was going to do in that particular moment that was going to change his mind. I knew I had to leave that room and figure out if there was a way for him to for me to change his mind. And if not, I had to think about, you know, what was the right option for me for my own future. And—

What was the transition? You know, I'm really diving into this. What was the transition phrase that you used that allowed you to say, end of meeting, I'm going back to work?

I don't know if I remember exactly how the— the words that were used, but I think we both agreed that he wasn't ready to give me this position. I think I knew, and he told me that we were going to search because that's what we do. We're a publicly traded company. It's a— it's our protocol to search. I think he at that point led me to believe, let's see how this search goes and just go back and do what you've done. And let's see if You know, you convinced me otherwise, something like that. And I said, fine. And I got up and left. And I can't say when I got up and left, we hugged or it was like lovely. But, you know, I said what I had to say. He, you know, said as much as he wanted to say. And I just got up and went back to do my thing and my job and thought to myself, okay, obviously there's nobody that he's putting in this role. So let's see if he change— if I can change his mind and prove him wrong. And that's what I spent the next 8 months doing. It was between— that was the amount of time he sort of ran the brand while the other president and CEO moved over to that other role.

So you didn't ask him— sorry to interrupt, but this is fascinating. You didn't ask him what exactly you needed to do to change his mind?

I did, but he couldn't answer me.

I did.

I said, what is it going to take? What did— what do you need? to see? What have I not done? Because I'm very straightforward. I'm fine having an open, honest conversation, whether I like what I'm going to hear or not. It's part of the game. But he couldn't answer me. He just didn't know. He couldn't put it into words. I don't know if that's a man-woman thing. I don't know if women are better at that or men are better than that. I kind of go with Sarah. I don't apply it to gender, but it made it a little more frustrating to me. But what was interesting is when he was asked about that, or maybe not even asked about that, but he chose to share it in this conversation he was having where he was interviewed about me. He said the way I handled that was one of the reasons why he ultimately did put me in the role.

Yeah, I could see that.

He said, she let me know exactly how she felt, but she did it in a professional way. She did it in a positive way. And, you know, she went back and didn't hold it against him. You know, I didn't agree with him, but I respected that it was his decision. And I knew that unless and until he changed his mind, it wasn't going to happen. And I, again, I approach everything through positivity. And then 8 months later, when I asked it again, he, you know, one day he called me. I asked, I probably asked again, and he said no, he wasn't ready to make the decision. But then one day he called me and said, I've made my decision, you know, blah, blah, blah. I needed to pick the best person for the job. And he ended up giving me the president and CEO role of Celebrity, even though I was with Royal Caribbean at the time. And he moved the person from Celebrity who had a couple of years under his belt of being president and CEO over to the bigger brands. And, you know, the moral of that story is that Celebrity was where I was meant to be, and I loved that brand, and I transformed that brand, and I lived in it. I left an amazing legacy with that brand, and so it all worked out in the end. But it wasn't again, you know, the moral of the story and what I say in the book is when you really want something, you you know you you figure out how to get it, and you don't, and you refuse to say take no for an answer, and you work hard to prove people wrong and the naysayers wrong. So. That's, that's my story.