198- Courage to Leap & Lead with Lisa Lutoff-Perlo and Sarah McArthur, part 2

You've got courage to leap, courage to lead.

Be brave and be bold. Whoa, let it roar.

Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast, where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courage-consulting.com. where you can find all the episodes and other excellent resources, all at courage-consulting.com. Now, here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman.

Sarah, what did you learn from this book?

I just, every time I listen to Lisa or get to work with Lisa or write with Lisa, or I spent I don't know how many Months in this room, over there in that chair, typing up the stories that Lisa had told me during our interviews, typing them up and massaging them. And, you know, so I could give them back to Lisa. And then the conversations that we'd have, and every Friday we did, um, we met and we'd either interview or we'd read back chapters. And so Lisa was The reader, she would read the chapter. So we got to hear it in her voice. And I learned so much about how to handle situations that come up, just like she was just explaining to us just now about how to navigate situations where I'm not getting what I want. Somebody's telling me no, I'm achieving a great success. I mean, that's also in the book, you know, all these Wonderful successes that you've had and how you've navigated those, or navigating personal issues that are happening at the same time as, you know, huge events at work. And I learned so much. And so sometimes, not very often, I did pretty good, but every once in a while, I mean, you have a leader like Lisa there answering interview questions. You gotta like ask her. So, so So if you were in this situation, how would you handle this? And she would tell me, um, how to rise above certain situations, or how to not let, um, emotions get in the way of asking for what I want, or trying to achieve what I want, or working with certain people, or navigating challenges. I mean, there's one chapter in the book About, you know, the greatest failure that Lisa ever faced and how she navigated that. And we spent a lot of time going through that. So I got to— I'm lucky. Peter Drucker says there's 3 ways to learn, right? You either learn by visual or you learn by maybe taking notes or you learn by auditory. I got Lisa all 3 ways.

Wow.

Wow.

I got to learn full immersion in, in great leadership. So I'm pretty fortunate in that, I would say.

Ladies, we're running out of time and I want to do part 2. So audience, stay tuned for part 2. Hello, ladies and gentlemen. It's CB with a rusty voice. We are going to do part 2 of an incredible interview with a new author, new author and an old author. And what do I mean by that? They co-authored. And the book is called Making Waves. And it is a riveting story about how a woman took a man's role and became CEO of a cruise line and president. Welcome back, Sarah and Lisa.

Thank you, CB.

Okay, so part 2, let's talk about your role as CEO of a cruise line. What the heck? First of all, can I ask you a stupid question? How did you learn how to drive a ship?

Yeah, no, I never did, CB.

Oh.

I left that to the experts. I learned early in my career, leave certain things to the experts. And you're not an expert in everything and you don't know everything. So that's one thing I never got to do. I got to go on the bridge. I got to blow the horn. I got to see all the technology and things that worked, which was really cool, but they never, they never put me behind the wheel.

So how do you be this— how do you become a CEO and you don't drive the ship? So how can you direct the captain to say, I think you're screwing up, or I'm very proud of what you've done?

Well, the good news is I didn't have direct oversight of the captains. They were very There were very accomplished men, actually, because it is a lot mostly men, who were leading the captains and telling them if they screwed up and being able to monitor the things that they did, again, through all the technology we had. And they would, you know, I knew the metrics. I knew what our key performance indicators are. We, you know, safety was at the forefront of everything we focused on every day. fuel consumption, on-time arrivals and departures, the logistics. And it's one thing I will say is the cruise industry is an incredibly complex industry that most people, even those who sail with us, don't understand what it takes to make it all happen. And I was fortunate enough to work with tens of thousands of people who were just really great at what they did.

So I just realized there was a question I didn't ask you as a follow-up to how you landed this position. What was the decision? What was the trigger, to quote Marshall, that finally made the offer to you real? of being president and CEO?

I don't know. I don't know what that one thing was. I don't. I think time was, was something that worked in my favor in terms of just continuing to lead a very large and complex operation. I think the performance and the results that I got when I was in that role I think some of the successes and failures and how I recovered from those played a key part in that, because I do believe that how anybody recovers from a failure, big or small, is a good indicator of what kind of a leader they will be and how they manage those types of situations. So I would say it was probably a myriad of things that one day convinced the person that was ultimately making the decision that I was ready and I would be really good in the role. And, and they did, you know, I think also in hindsight, as I look at it, I think they took their time making a decision on who was going to come in, which gave me an opportunity. And I think that they were very fair in that, in giving me the opportunity to again convince him that it was the right decision to give me one of these roles. They're very critical roles. There's a lot riding on these roles. And so I think that there were a myriad of things. I'm not sure if it was one thing, CB. It was probably a culmination of things.

Sarah, in your— sorry, audience, I have a lozenge here. In your role as communicating this wonderful story, What failure of Lisa's stood out in your mind and why?

You know, there's a chapter in the book about Lisa's greatest failure, biggest failure.

And we called it the epic fail, remember? Yeah, that's how we described it. That's how we described it.

Epic.

And what she did is she—

What was the failure first?

Go ahead, Lisa.

It's a good one. Yeah, it was. We were starting up a new brand and everything that could go wrong did go wrong. And, you know, we were redoing the ship, renovating it. It wasn't ready. Ovens didn't work. The crew wasn't ready. The rooms weren't set up, supplies hadn't arrived. Oh my God, the technology on the pier didn't work, and so we couldn't check people in. I mean, CB, it's like, I hope everyone reads the book because it was an epic fail. And it, it was an epic fail on every level. Like, there, there wasn't one thing I could point to and say, oh, that was a real success. Everything, everything that went wrong, that could go wrong, did go wrong. And then I was the only one, like, I was left kind of holding the bag. And, and I did not abandon ship. I stayed. And how long after you had been made CEO did this happen? No, it wasn't when I was CEO. This was a previous— what, it was my first foray into operations at Celebrity. It was 2008. And what I learned, I mean, and I'm gonna let Sarah relate her understanding and view of it because she was just sort of a listener and could think about it and process it all and what her reaction was to it. But I was new in my role and what I didn't know, I didn't know what I didn't know. And I didn't know the right questions to ask. And I had a really weak team around me that didn't care. And, and I learned a lot about teams, alignment, vision, caring about each other, being mutually invested in each other's success. That epic fail taught me a lot about those, those things that I didn't know. I, I asked some questions. Everybody told me that everything, they knew what they were doing and everything was gonna be fine. I trusted when I shouldn't have, and pretty much everybody let me down. And that was, that was why it was an epic fail.

And was it for this? Was it for Celebrity or Royal Caribbean or what was it?

No, it was, it was for a different brand that I don't name in the book. But yeah, it was, yeah, it was a startup brand that those of us on Celebrity were tasked with starting up.

Okay. So it was in the same industry, but— Okay.

It was in our company. Yeah, it was in our company. It wasn't Royal Caribbean. It wasn't Celebrity. It was a, it was a different brand we were starting up. Yeah.

Okay. Sarah.

So did you hear how she explained the epic fail? It starts with everything went wrong. New position. Everything's going, everything's going wrong. Ovens, you know, people aren't showing, people aren't showing up to do their jobs. Everything is going wrong. Everything. Did you hear how she turned that into, and I learned this, and I learned that, and I learned this, and I learned that? Isn't that just— I mean, that is leadership. That is positive leadership. And that's why I love working with Lisa so much, is she's Real. There, there are real things that happen, and they're really bad, really epic fails. And then I learned— she says, I learned this, and I learned that. And she takes all those learnings to whatever she's doing next, and it's so much better. And the other thing about what Lisa does that I got to learn because I got to go on a cruise, which was very exciting. And so I'd never done that. So I got to learn what cruises are about and how there's the land side and there's the seaside. And there is so much happening on one ship to get all of us passengers onto the ship where we're going to have food for the whole time we're there. We're going to be entertained. There's all these restaurants. There's so much happening. And so Lisa, in that position, was in charge of both, you know, or she was overseeing both the land side and the seaside. And she learned so much. She turned that into that epic fail. She turned that into a learning experience, a positive learning experience that she took into the the next, you know, the next adventure she was going to have. That's what I love about, um, working with Lisa, is learning how she, how she turns what's negative into positive. So when you asked about failure, I wasn't really able to come up with one because we always end on a good note.

Um, you mentioned something, Lisa. You said You trusted when you shouldn't have.

Yeah.

Tell me.

So, yeah, you know, listen, I— because I'm a relentless optimist, I always think everyone's well-intentioned and that what people tell me is the truth and that, you know, I should— I always believe. I'm not a— you know, there's like somebody in our company used to sign their emails with trust but verify. And I, and I, I more lean on the trust side. I just trust you. If I ask you a question and you give me an answer, I trust that it's the truth. I trust you mean what you say. And what I learned is that sometimes you just have to ask a few more questions because everything isn't as simple as it is on the surface. But what you also need to know is the questions to ask. And if you don't know the questions to ask, you take people at face value. And you believe that they are— that this is going to work because they know what they need to do. And oh, by the way, they probably did know what they needed to do, but they didn't do it. And one of the things that I also did in that situation was I stood— I was the only shoreside leader that stayed. And I—

What does shoreside leader mean? Shoreside?

I didn't work on the ship. I worked in the office, in the home office. I was not a shipboard employee. I was a, you know, I was an employee that worked on land. And I told them I wasn't leaving until we were—

it was—

we were stable and it was fixed and that I was going to be with them every step of the way. And whether I was responsible for what happened or not, I took full responsibility and I told them I needed their help to recover.

Wow, that's powerful.

And, and they rallied. They rallied around me in a way that was unbelievable. And And those, those people I was working with decades later, we were all— and we all had that memory and we all got through it together. And they remembered I didn't leave. And I probably gained more respect during that terrible situation than any of the other situations I've ever been in as a leader. And yeah, it was all for one and one for all. And then, you know, I also learned that the best in people comes out in the worst of times. And the worst in people comes out in the worst of times. And I was fortunate that I was left on the ship with all of those people where the best in them came out during that time. And, um, and yeah, we all helped each other fix it.

Did you feel when you said to people, we all need to be in this together, I need your help, What gave you the strength to say that, realizing that they could have said no, or they could have said, she's a weak leader? What gave you that courage to say that?

I don't think it ever occurred to me that they would look at me and say, oh, she's a weak leader. I think I felt like they knew. I was only, I was only telling them what they already knew, that we were in a mess. And listen, I was the highest-ranking official. Whose fault was it? Is it? If it's not mine. And, and I think that they, even if they might have, before I said it, thought, you know, look at her, she, this is a mess, it's all because of her. If they were thinking that, and I don't know if they were, I completely changed their mind because I was willing to accept responsibility. I was willing to stay for 7 weeks. 7 weeks I didn't leave that ship. I stayed with them. I was making beds. I was, I was doing anything that we needed to do to help.

Yeah.

I was helping them go buy their uniforms because the uniforms didn't show up. I mean, it was It was like it was epic. I was like, it's it's not an exaggeration how I described it. And then you know how can people not rally around you when they see that? I mean, it's um I took that chance and said I'm just gonna put it all out there, and I'm gonna hope that these are an amazing group of people, and they're gonna rally around me, and I'm gonna rally around them. Just like I proved the skeptics wrong, you know find a common ground. and be willing to be part of the solution and be honest with people. I learned, you know, it's— people aren't looking for bravado in leaders. They're looking for courage. They're looking for decisions. They're looking for drive. They're looking for vision. They're looking for heart. They're looking for empathy. But they're not looking for like, you know, oh, look at me, pound my chest, I'm so great.

I'm making a mark because that was such a powerful statement. I want to be able to quote it. Um, did you ever feel or identify anyone who was sabotaging you?

Yes.

Oh, I was expecting you to say no to that.

No. Oh, yes.

What did you do?

Um, I figured out how to not let them win. Yeah.

In a really positive way.

In a really positive way. Thank you, Sarah. Listen, I've had a couple— I, I can think, and I, I'm— I, I don't want to share because it's, um, too specific, but I've— I will— what I will share is that 2 times in my career I have had Really bad situations in that regard. And I honestly didn't know throughout the course of events of all those things that happened if they were going to win or I was going to win. Or, I mean, I don't know if it's the right phraseology, but at the end of the day, if people are trying to sabotage you, either they win or you win, right? And they didn't. So I did my best to find allies that could help me, to find people who saw what I saw in what was happening and kept doing what I do in the way that I do it. And it's like, I don't know, maybe I'm of the age where I think back to the black cowboy hat and the white cowboy hat. And I always believe, because I'm a relentless optimist, that the good guy wins and that justice will prevail. And so I— that's just what I kept in the back of my mind and how I tried to resolve those situations and get through them because they were real and they weren't good.

Women often face sabotage on their way up the ladder. Without revealing what you're not comfortable revealing, what specific advice can you give them? Can you give them— can you give them a roadmap?

Every situation is so different. Every company is so different. Every culture is so different. And I think, you know, honestly, sometimes it's just outsmarting them, you know, beat them at their own game.

Smart, smart, and courage.

Smart, smart, and courage. I mean, you really have to think about it. Now, it takes, it takes you having to focus on negative things, which I didn't like. I mean, honestly, it's not comfortable for me. I don't like it. I don't like that environment. I don't like those situations. But at the end of the day, If you have to decide if you're going to win or they're going to win and you want it to be you, you have to outsmart people and you have to think, you know, you have to— it's like a game of chess, you know, figure out your move, figure out your next move. How are you going to, you know, succeed in spite of them? But one of the things that I realized in one of the situations of sabotage is that I needed to have a really strong team. Because those people weren't on my team, the ones that were trying to sabotage me.

Yeah.

They weren't on my team. They were colleagues in other areas, but they weren't on my team. So part of people's ability to be successful when they're trying to sabotage you is if you don't have really strong people on your team that have your back and that are helping you be successful while they're trying to sabotage you. And during my epic fail, That was a, that was a double negative situation that I turned into a positive, right? They say a double negative equals a positive. But, you know, when you have somebody that's not necessarily interested in you doing well and then you have, you know, this team of people that are on your team that are, you know, not looking out for you either, that's a, that's a bad situation.

Yeah.

So maybe the one thing I could say is make sure you have a strong team and make sure you have a team that's going to help you win so that you, your chess move is better than the other person's chess move who's trying to sabotage you. Sabotage you because I think that many people encounter it. I know it's real, but there are you know got outsmart outsmart the people that trying to do you harm.

How do you recognize when people are trying to sabotage you versus being paranoid? I mean, how do you know when it's real?

Yeah, that's a good question. I'm not a paranoid person, so I don't really think like that. And you know, listen, situations like my epic fail were pretty real. That didn't take. I didn't have to be a brain surgeon. to figure that out. And, um, and, you know, the other thing is, is that if you come from a place of genuine goodness, there are people that are gonna be your ally, even if you don't know who they are or you don't know they're your ally.

That's a great point.

And in my other situation, I had people that were watching out for me that I didn't even know about that shared things with me. And so Again, one of the chapters in my book, chapter 8, is the boomerang, because I believe that you get back exactly what you put out there in the universe. So in some cases, I had people watching out for me and who had my back that I didn't even know. And, you know, that's the best thing you can hope for.

That's right. That's right. Yeah. And doesn't it make you feel great that those people You've earned, you've earned their faith, you've earned their trust, you've earned the fact that they have said, oh no, not her.

Right, right. She's got the white hat on. This other person has the black hat on. I'm not going to help the person with the black hat. I'm going to help the good guy win. And, um, and that's, that's what life is all about, honestly, and, and business sometimes. It's a tough world. You know, it's tough. And that's what I wanted my book to convey. This isn't beautiful and rosy and, oh, look at me. This was hard. I had to overcome a lot to get what I, you know, to achieve what I achieved.

Sarah, what do you think was the hardest thing from your perspective that Lisa had to overcome?

So in our beginning of working together, I don't know if it was the hardest to overcome, but I know it was the most challenging, the most— the hardest situation. So we were just starting to work together, and Lisa had written chapter 1, which is About a wonderful moment for Celebrity and also a very difficult moment for Lisa where she, her sister, her beloved sister passed away. And I remember we, as we did, you know, work on a chapter and then Lisa would read the chapter. And each time, so this first time she's reading, well, first I read it myself. And there's only been 2 times in my work in, you know, leadership writing and everything where, um, a leadership thought leader has made me cry. The first was Frances Hesselbein, and that was maybe, I don't know, 20 years ago or so. I asked her to contribute an article to one of the books I was editing, and she did. And the article was about respect for all people. And the way she wrote it, I just, I was bawling while I was reading it. And the second time was reading chapter 1 of Making Waves. And I read Lisa's telling of her story of that. And I was in just in tears. So when— Then this is like how to have feelings. and work, do my job at the same time. So we're— Lisa's reading chapter 1, and it's, it's emotional. So she— we get about halfway through, and then she starts crying. So then I start— I pick it up and I start reading it. I start crying. Was— it's the most beautiful, um, it's the most beautiful story of how we All of us work, and, you know, work is love made visible. It's how we are human beings contributing, um, you know, contributing our energy and our time and our talent. And we also have a life that's going on which people may or may not see. And we show, like Lisa, in that chapter and in life shows up for us, no matter what's going on in, in her life. Like, it's not like she hides it, but there are things that go on in her life, just like you, CB. I'm sure you do the same thing. You show up for us, right? We show up. And, um, how, how important that is to You know, moving forward in a positive direction that we, we create an environment. Lisa, as the leader, creating an environment and a culture where we can have things happening in our lives, and we can show up and do our jobs. And we're not going to be, you know, pushed away or told to go home or, you know, in trouble for Having, you know, being a little bit less in energy than we were, you know, when, when we were working on the book. Frances Hesselbein was, was, was passing away. And so I was working on I don't know how many different, different, like 3 services, world, world global leader. So when she passed away, I had a lot of things going on. And Lisa didn't say, oh, Sarah, you know, we got to finish this chapter, chapter 8, we're not done. She She was so respectful and kind about what I was, my own, what was going on in my life, that it made it so I was able to take care of the things that I needed to take care of. And, you know, and also continue working with her on waves. So it was just, just a great, a great experience to work with. A human leader, you know, a person who, who leads with, with love and humanity and really also so talented.

You're going to make me tear up as I think about—

I was tearing up recounting the story.

It was, you know, I was writing my book while my husband was receiving chemo. And so, yeah, the things that we need to do.

Um, yeah. And we, and we try to carry on.

Yeah.

And it's not easy.

No. And because you openly share what's happening in your life for that, you know, Lisa, for that, um, for that chapter. you ingratiate all of us who are reading that. Oh, oh, so she has things going on in her life too.

Oh yeah, you know, it just brings awful things. Awful, awful.

It brings, it brings, um, humanity to what we're trying to do, what we're, what we're, what we're all in this together. And so, you know, somebody's having a harder time. Oh, and I know about it. Okay, so let me try and help out a bit here. And I know your team did that for you. I mean, that, you know, I just— there's just nothing like it. There's just nothing like it. We are all in this together.

We could have a whole different podcast on that subject alone. Yeah, yeah.

How we support each other or don't. Yeah, not with this group.

Not with this group.

Okay, Sarah, I have to come back to—

While we wrap this up, CB, right? On that note, let's try to wrap this up, ladies. Yeah. Thanks, Sarah. Let's bring us all back.

We might ask you an intense question again.

Or do it at the beginning, not at the end.

Okay, um, Lisa, what are you up to now?

Okay, well, um, I left the company after 39 years and I thought I was going to kick back and take it easy a little bit, um, but then as the universe has, uh, had so many different and new and exciting things in store for me, I have now been announced as the CEO of the FIFA 2026 Miami World Cup host committee, and I will be, I will be running the 7 men's matches in the great city of Miami in the summer of 2026.

Wow.

Okay.

Again with the men. Okay.

Oh my God, it's all men. I was like, it's so funny you say that. The executive committee, all men.

The men's—

World Cup. I'm on these calls, all men. And it's just so funny because I'm like, okay, LLP, which everyone calls me, how did you get into this situation again? But I must like it because here I am and I'm excited. I know I get it. Once again, I don't know what the heck I'm doing, but I'll surround myself with really smart people that will help me be successful and in turn I will do the same for them.

Well, I wouldn't be doing my job, as a friend says, if I didn't ask, why did you leave the cruise line?

Um, you know, I'm, uh, I told you I was born in 1957, so, you know, it's like I'm thinking 39 years, publicly traded company. I got through COVID, I got through my sister's death. There were so many times during those couple of years I thought maybe it's time to just stop this craziness and focus on different things in my life. But what I will say, CB, is, um, I had to rewrite chapter 10 with Sarah.

Mm-hmm.

Because when I was writing chapter 10, I didn't, I didn't make the decision to leave. But when I was finally finished with chapter 10, after so many years of should I, shouldn't I, I finally decided I would have the courage to step away. It's probably the thing that's required the most courage because I had been doing something for 39 years. I was part of a company for 39 years. As you know, you start becoming intermingled with what you do and you can't separate the two. And I thought, what am I if I'm not this? You know, what am I if I'm not CEO of Celebrity? And I realized there's life beyond this and I've got to make the most of whatever time I have left. And I decided to get out of this, you know, crazy corporate world with this really intense pressure job after 3 years of unbelievable stress and pressure and again losing my sister, tragedy and sadness. And I thought, you know, let's see what life has in store. Let's see what else is out there after having an amazing career. And I loved my job. I loved everything about it. But it was time. And when it's time, it's time. And when you know, you know. And, uh, but you have to have the courage when you know to finally take that step and that leap, and I did. I don't know how the hell I got myself involved in now what I'm gonna do. Okay, you know, I thought I'd leave that to the next book, but that's the real question, CB. I need to, I need to go see a therapist or something. What am I doing?

Well, ladies, um, this has been an Amazing interview, and I cannot thank you enough. I am just— I can't wait for it to air. I, I think that— I know that you gave so many women hope and courage and the ability to lead with heart and not be afraid that'll weaken our power. And that's an incredible legacy to leave. And I just want to say thank you.

Well, the gratitude is all mine. It's been an honor getting to know you and having this conversation with you. And I cannot thank you enough that I am able to have spent this last hour or so with you and Sarah, one of my favorite people on the planet. Sarah, I love you, my friend. And This has been an honor and a pleasure. Thank you. That's been absolutely fabulous.

Thank you for introducing me to Lisa. You are the lubricant in our bodies and our minds.

So that's right. It's all about love.

Yeah.

Thank you.

So great to be here, CB. Thank you so much.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Until next week, this is CB And courage to leap and lead.