CB Bowman LIVE! Challenges of the C-Suite: Guest Jeffrey Hull, Episode 29

Hey, welcome to CB Bowman Live, Challenges of the C-Suite. Oh, I'm rocking my other glasses today. These are turquoise and my hair is kind of straight. So, you know, it's been an exciting week. Last week we launched the beginning of the semiannual conference for the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches. Coaches, and it was kick-ass. I am telling you that attendees wrote in and said this was better than a live conference. Can you believe we knocked it out of the ballpark? And you still have a chance to come if you go to the acec-conference.org website because we have 3 more days coming up. And if you sign up for the full conference, you'll get a recording of the entire conference, even if you missed a day. I mean, we have people like Dori Clark, who was electrifying. Michael Koenig. Oh, did he tell us secrets about strategizing for your own company? We had Elena Love, who talked about a new passion profile. Oh my God, we had an illusionist. Can you believe? There was such great conversation. So I hope you take advantage and go to the website. Meantime, today we have Jeffrey Hall-Ard, who's written an amazing book called Flex. So he is the perfect person to talk about leadership challenges in our new normal. So we are— you know, I hate this phrase— we're gonna pick his brain, but that's what we're gonna do today. So now, this Thursday we won't be on, and next Thursday we won't be on because of the conference, which is next Thursday. That's part 2 that's coming up of a 4-part conference. So I know you're gonna miss us, and I'm gonna miss you, but we'll be back. So watch for announcements. Meantime, here's Jeffrey. Jeffrey, welcome!

Thank you, nice to be here.

Thank you. So we're gonna start with you telling us all about yourself, at least the parts that you can tell us about. Now, Jeff, what's going on for you?

What would you like to know?

You know, that's like a typical interview question. When you go in and they say, tell me about yourself, and everybody starts instead of saying, now that's a great question, but I've had such a rich business career, what parts would you love to know about first? So because you—

Well, I'm a coach, so I always ask questions.

Oh my God, am I gonna be put on the spot?

You never know.

All right, this is a challenge. Okay, but you know, audience, you know I love to ask questions, so no issues here. First, tell us, you said you're a coach. What do you coach? What do you coach?

Um, I do mostly senior executives in all different kinds of companies, everything from startup to Fortune 50, everything from pharmaceuticals to software to healthcare, physicians, surgeons, anesthesiologists, clinical folks, all over the map, finance.

Wow. Okay. Have you always been a coach?

No, I was, uh, earlier in my career I was the director of HR for Booz Allen and Hamilton. And, uh, transitioned to leadership development consulting and then eventually became an executive coach after getting my PhD in clinical psychology and have been coaching and consulting ever since. So that's 20 years.

Oh, we won't tell. Now, why did you feel that you needed a PhD in clinical Why did you decide to coach with your background, which is clearly heavy duty?

I'm not sure that I needed it, but I had— there's probably 2 things. One, I had always thought that life is a journey of education and that I should try, you know, to go as far as I can in what's possible to learn. PhD is the highest level you can get in the US, so I had aspired to do that ever since I was a kid. It took me a long time, by the way. I was not a youngster when I finally completed my PhD.

You look like a youngster now, so we don't care.

Oh, well, you're kind. But yeah, so it was partly personal ambition and aspiration. Then the other really important reason is that I tried my hand at coaching earlier in my career. And it's safe to say I wasn't very good at it.

Oh, now, now you have to tell us. Um, wait, people are writing in already. Barbara Phillips, I saw that.

Ah, Barbara, my dear friend.

Okay, okay. And she goes, hi, MM. And then she said, I saw that. Now, they're not— that must be a secret message between the two of you.

It is. It's a Special, yes, nickname.

We're gonna have to find out about that. All right, you know, so when you first graduated from college, did you go straight to Booz Allen?

Uh, no, there were a few stops along the way, but they were pretty short, and I ended up at Booz Allen for a fairly lengthy time and ultimately left there as the director of HR for their technology division. And that's when I started the—

The trajectory up.

Well, the trajectory to becoming a consultant and then a coach and a psychologist and all of that stuff. But it was actually because of my— I wouldn't call it a failure, but I would call it a setback from trying to coach partners at Booz Allen. And I was not particularly well adept at it that I realized that although I had always loved psychology and taken psychology classes, um, that it really would be helpful for me to have some deeper psychological underpinnings to what I was trying to do as a coach. So that's why I ultimately felt that it was really powerfully supportive to have the graduate education in psychology.

Well, okay, you have opened a whole lot of conversation here. Okay, first you've got to tell us, what did you do before you went to Booz Allen in the workforce?

Uh, well, I was always in HR right out of college, um, and I worked initially for a company called Sheraton Hotels, um, which you've probably heard of, uh, and then I worked for a software company called EDS, Electronic Data Systems.

Sure.

And then went to Booz Allen.

Wow.

Moved around a little, you know, early in your career, it's not unusual, I think, to move around a little bit till you find—

Can I tell you something? Oh, we don't even have time. Um, okay, now I want to get into— Barbara is going LOL. She obviously knows you well. Okay, and you're turning red. Alrighty now.

Oh, I'm blushing. She's got me blushing. That's always good. Yeah.

Now, who is Barbara?

Barbara's a good friend of mine. Very good friend. Yeah.

Is she a coach?

She is. Yes, she is.

Fantastic. Okay, now you said early in your career you had some interesting blushes with coaching that you would have, I guess, liked to have seen gone a different way. Tell us, can you tell us about a couple of those, or is it top secret?

No, I can tell you a story about one of them. But, you know, without any identifying information, obviously. Okay. No, I just, I had, I think we've all had the experience of having a very difficult boss. And I would say I had a particularly challenging partner that I worked with, a partner at Booz Allen who was not easy. In retrospect, pretty toxic. And the bottom line is that I thought I could coach him. I thought I was going to change him. And I learned subsequently that you don't change other people; they change themselves. That's a good point. Yeah, that was actually a foray into coaching long before I was really skilled at it. But it was a great learning experience because I had the best intentions, but it ultimately did not succeed. I don't know where that particular individual is today, but he never became the good boss that I had always wanted him to be.

You know, I'm actually glad that you mentioned that. Because there are so many— I don't know that there's anybody out there that has escaped having a boss that was just, shall we say, not a good fit.

Yeah. Oh, they're out there.

Oh my, can we talk?

Well, it keeps us coaches busy, right?

Yeah, yeah. And, and, and the rest of us that don't know about coaching, because I remember this before I found out, and I think it's what pushed me into coaching too. I had a couple of really horrific bosses. And I also had a couple of really good mentors. And I remember going to one of my mentors saying, I just can't take this. I have tried everything. And of course, the first thing you try is being super nice, and then that kind of like opens the door for all kinds of hell. And my mentor wisely said to me, you learn more from a bad boss than you do from a good boss.

True.

You learn what not—

Not to do.

What you don't want to be. And I thought, okay, well, that sounds good on paper, but We're talking about real life here. And I'm just going home with migraines every single day. And, you know, I just need another way out. And I think many people, first, they think it's about them when it's not.

Of course.

And number 2, and I'm not saying the case— this is the case with you— is because they're not realizing the other person has issues, they stay when dessert is no longer being served in the company. Yeah. And I think both of us did the, I think I could help the other person kind of thing.

And yeah, well, I think what I had in that case, I had witnessed some behavior that was really just not acceptable. And just to give you an example, I mean, this person had the habit of seeing if he could reduce someone to tears. That was one of his goals. And that when he did that, he would turn to me and he would say, well, you're the director of HR, fix it. And I would say, you have got to be kidding me. Who do you want me to fix? The woman who's now in tears, or the person who's now in tears, or you? And I said you a few too many times. Um, yeah, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's as I said, I had the best intentions. I really believed that I could do something to support this person's change. But at the end of the day, if they don't want to change, they're not going to change. And that was the great learning for me.

Yeah.

I still use it every day in my coaching, which is before I start any engagement No matter what the boss says or the sponsor or whoever's paying for the coaching, I always start with, what do you hope to get out of this experience of coaching? Because—

Yeah, yeah, but go ahead, go ahead. I'm going to ask you a question.

Yeah, no, it's just because from a— from the standpoint of intrinsic motivation, your client, no matter how much someone else might want them to change— the boss, the sponsor, the company, the team, whatever— You know, they really have to look within themselves and decide whether they want to grow, expand, do something different, be— take a chance. That has to be internally motivated. There's no coach that can make that happen for another person.

So my question to you is around this: having taken your higher degree learning Looking back on the situation, is there anything you think with your new learning that you could have done differently? Not should have done differently, could have done differently.

Oh yeah, I would have first of all had, uh, start— my starting point would have come from a different place. My starting point was from judgment and criticism. You're not behaving properly, you should change.

I don't see anything wrong with that.

Well, except that that didn't work. It's all— it's that old adage, how's it working for you?

Yeah, right. Yes.

So, and instead, I would probably start with empathy and compassion. Like, you know, this person is exhibiting behavior that's potentially hurtful to others, but very likely it's a projection of their own pain. So, you know, I would want to be more curious and more of a detective to explore. So what is it that motivates someone to behave like that? You know? And also I would have asked questions about what he aspired to be as a leader. I never took the time. to ask him, what kind of leader do you want to be? How do you want to be remembered in this job? I never took the time. I stepped immediately right into, you need to change, which didn't work.

There are 2 stories that come to mind. One is I have a colleague who's written a book about the workplace warrior. And Jordan Goldrich. And his philosophy is that organizations need warriors, and these aggressive, obnoxious people might otherwise be defined as workplace warriors. I have a hard time with it. I see where he's going. He does a lot of work for the Honor Foundation. But having been a person that's been in the midst of a leader gone awry, I'm not so sure that that works for me, right? The other thing that another colleague of mine, Elena Love, has created something called Passion Profile. And it is marvelous. It looks at the archetypes that we exist in and how can we respect each other's archetype, because it's related to passion. It's called The Passion Profile.

Interesting.

Oh, she's amazing. I've interviewed her. If you have a chance, if you'd like for me to introduce you, anyone who's listening, please let me know. But she told the story and was in Smart Brief about a man that she was brought in to coach who was hard as nails about being an aggressive, abusive leader. And she did take the opportunity to dive into what was the trigger points. And found out that he had been abused Well, that's what I meant by compassion. Yeah.

And empathy, starting from what, what is the source that has led this person to fundamentally be very hurt or angry and then lashing out?

Yeah. And that's— it looks like Jeff's computer is going down, but wrapping back up. That's what made me think of it. Because once that came out, The question for him was, do you want to be remembered as you were treated as a child, or do you want to be remembered for what you can do now?

That's powerful.

Pivotal, powerful points, right? Change. So yeah, okay, so now I want to talk about your book. Flex. Can you tell us a little bit about it? And what made— first, what made you write it? No, I guess it's the reverse. Tell us about the book and then what made you write it.

Well, the book is basically taking a look at, uh, the fundamental change that I had started to see over a period of years in my coaching practice and the types of leaders that I was coaching and the types of leadership styles that I was seeing broadening and deepening and greater variety. And—

That's Elena. Hold on one second.

So she's calling you?

Yeah. Okay. Let me just tell— and this is typical of our show. Hey, Elena. I'm great. I'm actually doing LinkedIn Live and we were just talking about you with Jeff Hall. So, so I have to hang up and then you can watch the show. Okay. All right. Okay. Drive safe. Bye. She was on the line to get gas because there's a gas shortage in the East because of a pipeline break.

Oh, there is a pipeline. Yeah, I, I haven't noticed it myself, but yeah.

Yeah. So now going back to the book, it's like, this is like chatting in your living room. Coffee.

Coffee with CB.

That's what I should change it to. And we have somebody Who wrote in, um, hello from New York. Barbara writes in, LOL again. Another person writes in, at which point do we hold accountable the pain that these hurt people inflict on others? I sympathize with people who are abused, but they don't have the right to go around hurting everyone else. Whoa, powerful statement.

Yeah, I would tend to agree. I mean, good news, we're talking in sharing my story, it's quite a few years ago, and I think that that behavior would no longer be tolerated. I would, I would assume that that person would be extricated from their job.

So, well, we would hope, but there are a lot of companies, if that person is a high producer That close their eyes.

That's true. Yeah, no, you're right. There's still some of that.

Yeah.

But the good news is that in my practice, getting back to the original question, I mean, part of the reason I wanted to write my book was because I had in the last few years started to see a very big change in the demographics of the people that I was coaching, in the styles of the leaders I was coaching, the environments in which people were operating. And I wanted— and then I started doing research with my colleagues at the Institute of Coaching to find out whether I was just the one-off or whether this was a trend. And it ultimately led me to create a framework and a set of tools and basically a guidebook for what I would call the next generation of leaders or coaches that are working with up-and-coming leaders to— or even CEOs that are looking at their environments, their teams, and thinking, oh, especially in light of the pandemic, like, how do I get the best out of my people? And to really accelerate this diversifying, this expansion of what I call the portfolio of leadership capabilities. You know, becoming more agile, hence the title of my book, becoming ultimately more flexible. And as a leader, to show up differently with creative approaches to the context in which you find yourself. And my book came out just before the pandemic, and it turned out to be pretty like a silver lining for me because it was fortuitous that, you know, all of these disruptions that we've experienced have kind of forced many leaders to step back and think about how to operate with greater flexibility, how to engage a team through Zoom or through virtual formats, how to keep— how to focus on the well-being and the emotional sustenance, the emotional health of their teams when people are feeling highly anxious or stressed. You know, all of that was relevant before, but it's certainly become very acute during the pandemic. So those are the kinds of things that I was actually focused on in the book, was looking at a whole range of leadership styles that are moving beyond what I call the traditional— and we've already talked about it— but the traditional alpha, you know, the autocratic, directive, top-down, command-and-control which is great if you're going under the knife in surgery. You definitely want someone who knows what they're doing, who can command and control. But if you want to have an innovative team, if you want to have a high-performing organization that's being creative and getting the best out of everyone, then that style, that more hierarchical approach, is really no longer It really no longer serves today's world. So that's what I really wanted to focus on in the book.

Okay, now, without revealing any secrets, what we want everybody to get the book, and it's available obviously on Amazon, right?

Right.

Okay. Let's talk about some of the high points, the demographics, the styles, and the environment of what you see or what you saw is happening. So when you talk about demographics, what's— what are you talking about?

I'm talking about that when I first started in my corporate career, leadership was something that would probably be 5, 10, 15 years in the future, whereas today with the millennials and Gen Zs You know, the level— the expectation to take on leadership roles is much higher, that they want to get involved in leading projects earlier in their careers. They don't want to be held back by seniority issues. And so the demographic shifts that have taken place have also just accelerated the opportunity for leaders to step up earlier in their careers. And then if you add on to that the technologies are creating flatter, more networked, interconnected organizations, you know, the distance between the people in the know and the people on the floor has gotten much closer. And the good news about that is that it's the people closest to the customer, it's the people closest to the projects that are actually developing products or developing services, they're often the ones that have the best solutions. And if you give them an opportunity to step into leadership roles earlier, they can be surprisingly effective. They don't have to necessarily wait, you know, 10 years to learn the ropes and work their way up the ladder that doesn't exist anymore. So that's what I'm talking about in terms of demographic change. And then there's cultural change and genders. More and more women in leadership roles, more and more people of color, more and more people with a whole different range of cultural and national backgrounds. And this is something that we need to leverage in our organizations because it's talent, it's creativity, it's different perspectives, it's curiosity. So we need to get beyond sort of the one-stop shop, one-trick pony approach and really create environments that leverage the best out of everyone.

I love what you're saying because it's, it's saying that, you know, leadership is in the here and now. It's not a question of waiting until the tea is brewed, like watching water boil. Okay, you qualify to be a leader when you reach 49 and 3/4 and you have been in this role and that role and in that role in an organization. And so you have a feeling for all the departments. Now we're seeing, you know, I'm going to call it the specialized leader. So if somebody comes in and says, I know how to take this particular area to zenith, which will positively affect the ROI of a company, let's go with that. Because if you wait, technology— that idea may have— may fall behind someone else in your competitive company coming up with the same idea because of how fast things move.

Right. So yeah, in fact, I I laughed when I saw the title of your LinkedIn Live, Lessons from the C-Suite, because to be honest with you, CB, I don't believe in the C-suite anymore.

Yeah.

I think that we should dismantle the C-suite, and I like to call it the We-Suite.

Ooh, ooh, ooh, okay.

And then not to denigrate your title, of course, this is a great title, but The point is that one of the themes of my book is that we need to reframe what it means to aspire to leadership. It's not climbing a ladder. It's not a slice off the top of an organization. It's not the days when I graduated from college, people, when I was in HR, we would talk about the high potentials as if there were people that had no potential that we hired.

Yes, I remember that. And so many books on working with your high pros.

Yeah, so that— but that means that the other 80% of the people you hired suck.

That's exactly how they operated.

It's ridiculous. Everyone has high potential. Everyone in the world has the potential to be a leader. So, you know, it's a complete reframing. There's no such thing as low potential and high potential. There's just leveraging human potential. potential.

Yeah.

And leadership is not something for some special people at the top of the ladder. Leadership is something that emanates from within every human being. And we need to find ways to leverage, nurture, honor, embrace, and expand those capabilities right from the very beginning. I mean, I have a client, a startup that I'm working with, and they just reached 100 employees and they're growing very fast. And the CEO, who's a typical boomer, as you'd expect, he said to me, we need to work on the culture, Jeff. And I said, you're right. You need to start to think about getting to understand the culture, but it's already started. He said, what do you mean it's already started? I said, you have 100 people. You already have a culture. He said, well, how do I leverage that? And I said, well, why don't you put together some cross-functional groups and have them dialogue? What is it like to work here? What do we love about this place? What are the stories we tell each other? And he said, well, I don't have time to run that. That takes too much time. I said, well, why don't you go down into your organization and pick out a bunch of great folks at all different levels and ask them if they're interested in running those dialogue sessions? And we called it engagement discussions. And at one point, there was a 24-year-old woman from Venezuela This is a true story. And she's amazing. And she raised her hand in one of his opening discussions, you know, a town hall. And she said, I want to run one of those groups. And the CEO then came to me and he said, she's only 24. She can't run a group. And I said, why not?

And how old is he?

Probably 50. I don't know.

What was the punchline?

The punchline is I said, that's an old paradigm narrative you have. Why don't you give her a shot? Ask her to see what she's up to. See what she'll create. Well, here we are almost a year later, and this woman runs their engagement department now. I mean, she's just extraordinary. And she has an amazing story. She's from Venezuela. And she came to America and she's brilliant and just talented. And so all of these stories that we have, you know, that certain people should wait their turn or, you know, whatever. I'm just, um, I'm a big believer in nurturing the leadership in everyone. That's what I wanted to write about.

You know, what you said reminds me of a story, and I'm not going to get the whole thing Right, but— and I can't remember who told me, it might have been somebody I interviewed on the show recently— of a company that was going through downsizing, right? And so what they wanted to do, what the idea was, to interview people that— and select people that would remain, right?

Okay.

See who had potential. And one person who was supposed to remain was an administrative assistant. And they interviewed her. They did this test, and it she tested very high for technology. And they said to her, "We're going to give you an opportunity to be in the technology department." She said, "No, not me. I'm just an administrative assistant who happens to be a single mom." They encouraged her to. She did it. She took the company to major dollars as head of— reached head of technology.

Wow.

So you don't know those hidden gems. Sometimes people themselves don't know it. And if—

Yeah, I have a, I have a little story about that I could share. Yeah, yeah, because you're reminding me of something that was very profound early in my career. that I actually have never— I haven't thought about for a long time. I might— maybe I should write about it. But there's— there was a time when I was the director of HR and someone was talking to me about recruitment and how difficult it is to recruit students. And we hired a lot of MBAs and they would come in through— I remember it was at 101 Park Avenue and they would come in on the 19th floor.

Wait a second, I worked in that building.

Yeah, big tall black building on 41st and Park.

Yeah, that's right.

We probably walked by each other.

Yes.

Anyway, I remember someone, one of my colleagues saying to me, Jeff, what is the secret to your finding all these, picking out the great candidates? And I remember thinking just off the top of my head, well, one of my secrets is our receptionist. And they said to me, what do you mean one of your secrets is the receptionist? And I said, the receptionist, who is this amazing woman, was, you know, very young woman, but she was so astute and intuitive and empathic. And she was sitting behind the desk and she would welcome the candidates when they came in. And then she would come running back to me and she would say, don't hire that one. And I would say, she would say, that one's really good. And I And I finally, at first I was kind of not taking it seriously, but then I started to really listen to her and she was always right. Yeah, I remember. And I remember asking her later, what is it about your— why are you so good at telling the talent like that it's gonna be the right person to hire? And she said, when they come in and they take off their coat and they come up to me, the way they treat me as a receptionist, That's right. Is the way they will treat everyone for the rest of their time here at this company. And I can tell within 5 minutes whether they're going to do well because they're friendly, they're respectful, and they treat me like a human being. Others come in, toss the coat, ignore me, act arrogant. And it was so important for me that I ultimately made her part of our recruiting team. And it was, the reason I thought of the story is because it's like you said, she did not think of herself as having that skillset. She said, oh, I'm just a receptionist. And I don't remember her name, but I remember saying, you are so much more than a receptionist because you are incredibly good at assessing people.

Empathic, intuitive.

It was, it was such a great learning for me early in my career. And it's still very alive today.

I totally remember, maybe it was your company. I remember the story when I used to have a coach, career coach, and they said, first thing you do, the receptionist is the key person that you're going to meet, you know, and it may have come from your office, who knows. We've got some more comments here. I'm not sure I'm going to pronounce your name right. Prashant said, well put, Jeff. Human potential is what we need to be nurturing. Then he also writes a question. When CEOs don't align to the change agenda, how does one drive that concern away?

Hmm.

And then we have another person who writes in, I agree, everyone has potential. I love the idea of engagement discussions. So you're gathering quite a bit of comments.

Great.

Keep them coming in. Can you answer Prashant's question? When CEOs don't align to the change agenda, how does one drive that concern away?

I'm not quite sure what he means by the change agenda. Um, do you think he means not getting on board with all the changes that are taking place in the world?

Oh, I think so. Um, because he would be the one— he or she would be the one that asked for change. So I suspect it's when the universe around that person changes and they sort of ignore it. So, Prashant, uh, send in a clarification if you can. Yeah, I'm gonna ask you, style. You mentioned style. Can you define style for us?

Um, I mean, I think what I'm looking for there is, is patterns of behavior. You know, there are, you know, in my book I define sort of 6 domains in which leadership behavior shows up: decision-making, communication, emotional expression, authenticity, collaboration, and engagement. And there are different styles or different ways that leaders behave in those contexts. And everything from, as I said earlier, from being very directive and authoritative and delegating and all of that to being much more curious, collaborative, consensus-oriented, empathic. And I have a whole section of the book around somatic engagement, where they're actually being more focused on their physicality and their energy. They're creating the space that's psychologically safe for people, which is more than just words. It's also presence. It's also mindfulness. So those are all, when they show up as a pattern or a habit, then that lends itself to a style. It basically comes down to what your comfort zone is. We all have those areas where we sort of naturally fall into particular ways of operating or behaviors. And if we want to grow as a leader or even as a coach, You probably can relate to this. I know I can as a coach. You want to grow your style. You want to grow and expand your repertoire. And, but in order to do that, you have to have a sense of what you do naturally, what you do well, because it's only by having the self-awareness that you can say, oh, I see. That's what, that's what the feedback of a coach is, is so helpful. Uh, 360 feedback or feedback from stakeholders. So you actually get a sense of what you do naturally, what your style is. But then you can make the conscious choice to expand and grow. And so I have in my book what I call the Alpha style, which we just talked about. And then there's the Beta style, which is really more of an inclusive leader, more of someone who leads by consciously nurturing It could be nurturing the other folks. It could be, at times, even leading by following, leading by partnering. It's more of what I would call the we-based leader rather than the I-based leader.

You gave 6. Let's go over those for the audience because I missed 2. Decision maker.

Right. Decision making. Communication, emotional expression or emotional intelligence, authenticity, collaboration, and engagement.

All right, what happens when the styles conflict with each other?

Within one person or in a group? Within yourself?

Let's take it all. I'll give you an example. I'm highly introverted. So after these shows, I just—

That's hard to believe.

And you know, I have to tell you something. I've taken the MBTI like 5 times, and I keep trying to cheat it so I can be extroverted. It doesn't work. So I'm disappointed. And I'm— it's not that I'm on the cusp of introverted versus extroverted. I'm off the charts introverted. So I remember when I first started working at General Foods, I got a really bad reputation that fortunately somebody clued me in. And they said, oh, she's so unfriendly. And I said, what? What is that? Me? And so I finally kept asking, kept asking. And I said, why do people say that about me? And they said, Because when they see you in the halls in the morning and they say good morning, you just look at them and you don't engage in conversation when they say, how was your weekend? Or how was your day? And I looked at them and I said, because that's a stupid question.

You didn't have any patience for social graces.

have better things to talk about. But here's the funny part. I moved to Colorado. What's the favorite expressions? How's your day? Do you have plans for the day? Is everything going well for you today? And it drove me crazy for the first 2 years. I'm thinking, why do they care how my day is going? Why do they need to know what my plans are? And so It's not that I wouldn't have a discussion. It's just that I didn't understand all of that as an introvert. My mind is already inside thinking about what I need to accomplish for the day. How am I going to accomplish it? What speed am I going to cut?

You know?

Yeah. So, but does it mean that I'm not authentic or I'm not, uh, embracive or inclusive? It just means I don't need to have this chitchat to get there. So it took me a long time to understand it wasn't that I disliked people, I just couldn't quite grasp what all this conversation was about.

Well, that may not be just about introversion. I would say that's also about your, um, You know, you're more introspection. You're— it sounds like you're, you're self-reflective and introspective as opposed to externalizing.

Yes, I am.

You know, I'm actually not a big fan of this introvert-extrovert thing, to be honest.

Oh, oh, you're throwing down the gauntlet for Myers-Briggs.

Oh yeah, I'm not a big fan. Carl Jung would turn over in his grave if he knew that they took his work and turned it into Myers-Briggs. Because that's the source material for Myers-Briggs, is Carl Jung's 4 quadrants of wholeness. And he never meant it to be used that way. It was never supposed to be putting people into personality categories. It was not.

You know, we have a little bit of time left. Tell us, tell us. You know, you're gonna leave on a very controversial note here.

That's okay.

I love it. Yes, tell us.

Well, I guess the bottom line is that I'm a much bigger fan of— we coaches, we use assessments, and I am a much bigger fan of what I call developmental assessments than I am personality assessments. And the challenge in today's world with the science that we now have is that personality tends— assessments tend to put people in categories. They tend to put you in a box. You know, you're either red, yellow, blue, green, or you're an MB— you're an STJP or whatever it is. ENF— I'm an ENFJ. You know, and I just don't find that helpful because as a coach, at the end of the day, what we're really committed to is helping our clients grow and expand and change and develop. So what I much prefer is an assessment that starts at one point and a year later shows up very differently because it shows growth, it shows expansion. You know, there are the EQI 2.0, for example, the emotional intelligence assessment. I've taken that assessment and each time I do it, I get I get better scores in certain domain dimensions because I've been paying attention to learning those and practicing those behaviors. And I think that's much more useful. And I'm not trying to do a promo for that particular assessment, but just to keep in mind as coaches, personality is not a fixed thing.

Mm-hmm.

It can be interesting, just like astrology is very interesting. But I think if you really want to be motivated to, you know, to change and grow, you want to focus on developmental opportunities, not, you know, hardcore personality limits. I just— that's my soapbox about it.

We need to have you come back and debate this out.

Oh, great. Yeah, I'd love to do that. I mean, not saying that they're not valuable. But it can potentially be limiting. Um, a lot of it— and a lot of it has to do with how the coach uses it, translates it, and how the person receiving the information uses it. Right, right.

Um, in my case, it was great information because I just thought I was crazy or the rest of the world was crazy.

So that was helpful.

Yeah, right, it was very helpful.

But I'll give you an example. I've worked in another organization where someone said to me, don't hire any more ISTJs, we have too many of those.

Okay.

And that to me is not helpful.

Yeah.

You know, that individual, when they were doing recruitment, was very quick. Give them all a Myers-Briggs, and if they have an IS— if they come out ISTJ, we don't want them. Was there a why attached to Because she's an ISTJ and she didn't want any competition.

I love that. Yeah, I can see where that could be real harmful right there. Hey, let's see if Prashant— Prashant brought back in, uh, change to focus on talent as a holistic agenda. CEOs trend— tend to operate on a basis that aids their thinking and can often not be as per what the organization seeks. How does one tackle that? Ah, okay. So he's talking about CEOs who are very myopic and don't see the entire organization in a holistic way. How do you work with a CEO who's very myopic and is not necessarily leading to the best of the organization, but leading to the best of self?

Yeah, that's a powerful question and a very challenging dynamic because, of course, if the person is the CEO, then they hold a lot of the power. And so coaching that individual can be— could be potentially very challenging. But I would ask them to reflect on their identity as a leader. How do they define themselves? What do they care about? I think when you have someone that is— that has some reluctance to see the bigger picture or is kind of stuck in their story, I will often ask them to explore their deepest values.

Hmm.

What do they most care about? What do they want their legacy to be? Especially a CEO, it's great to ask them about their legacy. How do you want to be remembered in the role that growing this company from X million to another 100 million? What's most important to you? Or if it all ended tomorrow, what would you want to be remembered for?

Yeah.

And I think the thing that's wonderful about coaching is that CEOs He has a really valid question because they are so busy and they're so focused and they have so much pressure and so much stress that it is very easy to get myopic and to think, you know what? I've got to make those numbers or my board is going to kick me out. And so, we've got to do my agenda, M-Y, my, not our, not we, but my. And so, the coach opportunity is so powerful Because it's the one chance, even if it's maybe just 10 or 15 minutes, to grab them and say, do you got a minute to think about what's most important to you? And what I find is that when the CEO takes time, and I'm sure you've experienced this, CB, as a coach, when they take that time, even if it's brief, to reflect on what they care about, they will then think, and and say, you know, I really care about my people. Or I really care about the sustainability of this organization. Or I really want to leave something valuable to my kids. Or I really want to live up to the expectations that my parents, my dad, who started this company. You know, those things that are very heartfelt and deep and maybe even emotional or vulnerable. And when they do that, even if it's a slight opening, I'll usually say something like, wow, that is so moving. You can be so connected to what is really important to you. Do you share that with your people?

That's very powerful in response. And, and I also would like to add to that, in many cases As the employee, we don't realize that the CEO is trying to do the best. And sometimes the yes people are the people that do the most damage.

Oh, so true.

So it's giving the CEO a little slack, which we don't do in this cancel culture, especially. And CEOs need to realize that they need to create an opportunity to hear from all levels in the organization, not just the appointed few.

I totally agree.

And that would make for so much more wealth, energy, and creativity within a company.

I personally think it's going to be one of the silver linings of this pandemic, which is—

Yes.

That some of the hierarchy and the scaffolding that existed in these office towers and the big offices that are separate from the employees have all kind of tumbled down. And I'm hoping, I really hold the intention that they do not rebuild them. You know, I have recently been working with a major car manufacturing company that shall remain nameless, where they asked me to do a webinar on productivity and well-being during the pandemic. And because I was interviewed similar to this, and then they said, oh, that's really interesting leadership, blah blah blah. And I said, sure, I'll be happy to come and do that. As long as your C-suite is participating and it's not just for the employees. And so we had a webinar and they had their top 100 leaders and they had the executives. And what was wonderful about it is that I did a short talk and then we had a lot of dialogue. And they were all in their little boxes in the screen. And they're all over the world. They're in Germany. They're in Mexico. They do manufacturing in Mexico. Mexico. You know, it's a car company, so you can imagine. And, you know, at one point I said to them, you know, this is so wonderful because you guys are not in a pyramid. You're in a mosaic. I'd love to take a picture because you all look equal.

Yes.

And the CEO, to his credit, German, traditional, he said, you know, Jeff, it's actually really great because This has been such an opportunity for me to listen to my staff at another level that I don't usually get. And I said, you know, it's so wonderful, and I hope you will keep it going after the pandemic. So we'll see. But exactly to your point, they got to get out of the office.

How powerful is that? And I hate to say, and that to advertise, but our conference was just like that day one. And we—

that's great—

is that all the attendees had the chance to be equal and embrace each other. And, and the speakers became part of the audience, right? Because they were throwing questions at the speakers, and the speakers were laughing and having fun and and challenging the audience, and the audience would challenge the speaker right back. I mean—

I love it.

And that's the way our company should operate. Hey, we only have 5 more minutes, and I want to get to the last point, which is environment, the last bullet. So define environment in terms of the new leader. What are you— are you talking about the 5 pandemics that are happening all at once, or what?

Well, what I wrote about, which was just before the pandemic, but I think it's still absolutely relevant now, is about the environment in terms of the energy that you create as a leader in your space. That you, that you're really intentional about creating a space that nurtures the creativity in everyone. And that is more than just content. That's more than just verbal communication. It also has to do with your energetic presence as a human being. And it has to do with the space. We just talked a little bit about that in terms of whether you're doing it in virtual space or in the real world, you know, to move away from the boardroom and the power chair and all of that kind of thing and to be very intentional about creating a space, an energy that is welcoming, inclusive, curious, and that is truly committed to listening— keyword listening— into the creativity of all of your people. And that means the diversity of your people, you know, really tapping in at a different energetic level than may have been in our norms in the past. We have no more excuses. And we all have to be on a learning journey, I think, in terms of leveraging the talent that we have that comes in all variations, as you know.

Jeff, one last major question. Why do you think it's so hard for leaders to listen?

Well, I think it gets back to what our friend Marshall Goldsmith, who made us part of his 100 Coaches group. And it's an honor, right, to be with you in that group. But I think it's what gets back to what he always says, which is what got you here won't get you there. You know, that's one of his books has that focus and the theme, which is that what it takes to succeed is often a sense of very different Definitive confidence, competence, knowing the answer, being right. So if all of those are the things that get you to the top, unfortunately, they also get you stuck at the top.

And start sliding down.

Exactly. So yeah, I think it's a paradox, you know, what that level of competency and stoicism is great and strength, but it's your humanity, it's your vulnerability, it's your openness to learning that ultimately helps you grow. And that is the paradigm shift that we're all hopefully experiencing coming out of the pandemic. And that, you know, those— the next generation and the current generation are really beginning to get it. And so this is a— this is a good thing. I'm, I'm cautiously optimistic.

Well, Jeff, it's been great having you. Such knowledge. I hope you had fun.

Yeah, it's great talking to you. Thank you for having me.

Oh, it's been awesome. Hey, audience, you know I always tell a secret, right? So the secret for today is if you missed any of this or any of my shows that take place 3 times a week starting in June, the end of June, you can catch them all on YouTube. So LinkedIn is gonna toss me off, but I want to be sure that you hear the rich content from our speakers and the fun that we have, the learning that we have, the sharing that we have. So don't worry if you— but, you know, come to this show too and put comments. You can also catch it on Facebook, but I want to build up the audience on YouTube, so please jump on there and leave some questions and comments. And also, if you're driving in a car, secret, we're on iHeartRadio and Apple Podcasts, so we got you covered.

Great. I thought you, I thought you were going to say if you're driving, you can use your— just put your phone on the steering wheel.

You want to get me in big trouble, Jeff. No, I want to keep the audience.

Me too. I'm glad you didn't. It's cool.

You know, while you're cleaning up in the house, while you're cycling, uh, whatever exercise, you know, just tune into iHeartRadio or Apple Podcasts. And you can expand your knowledge and be with us in those ways. So with that, I'm going to say goodbye, and I will see you probably in 2 weeks on Tuesday. But just follow me, you'll see, you'll see, you'll catch me, right? And by the way, I'm on Clubhouse, so join me. And you know, Clubhouse just went Android. That's a big secret to tell you. No longer just for iPhone. You can catch me on the Executive Coaching Club and on Leadership Challenges. So I've got your back. Listen in and have a great successful week. See you soon. Bye now.