CB LIVE! Courage to Leap and Lead with Justine M’Poyo Kasa-Vubu, Episode 102

Good morning, everybody. Guess who it is? Oh, you know, it's CB Live. And I'm so excited today because I have a very special guest. You may remember that I interviewed her son some time ago, and I am now interviewing for the first time The mom of a guest. And the reason is because this woman, oh my gosh, she is a powerhouse. And I want to know all of her secrets. Because first of all, she raised an incredibly brilliant, successful son who's wise beyond his years. If you look at his website, it's just filled with wonderful quotes. As a matter of fact, one of his quotes, which I won't tell you, is in my new book that's coming out in November. It's called Courage to Leap and Lead. Of course, you would have guessed that from the name of the show, right? So without further ado, I'm going to introduce Justine. I'm going to ask her to pronounce her last name because, you know, I'm dyslexic and I'm terrible at pronunciation. So fortunately, she's given me permission to call her Justine, which I take with great honor. And then we're going to find out all about how she grew up, how she became such a wise mom, and how she became so popular in her country to win elections and to be focused— the world to focus on her. So let's rock this out. Ready?

Yes.

Let me introduce Justine. Justine, thank you so much for agreeing to be on the show today. How are you?

Yes, I'm fine. It's a great honor for me to join you, and, uh, well, I hope we can spend an hour with pleasure and maybe exchange, uh, all sorts of experiences. I'm very excited to I'm— yes, I'm very glad to be here.

Thank you, thank you. Now let's start. Justine, how do you pronounce your married— or your last name?

Well, uh, Justine Mpoio Kasavubu. Um, Mpoio, I am married to a man whose name is Elin Mpoio, and Kasavubu is my second— my name because my father's you know, was Joseph KasaVubu. So people know me as Mrs. Justine Poyo KasaVubu, but you can call me Justine, as you've put it just in the beginning of the show.

What I find is interesting in your country— tell the audience where you're from.

Well, I'm from the Democratic Republic of Congo, which was Belgian Congo under colonial rule, 60 and more years ago. Yeah, from DRC, as we say today.

Well, you know, you've just identified my age because I remember when it was called the Belgian Congo. What I think is interesting, in your country, you have your name, and then you have your married last name, And then your family name. In the United States, it's different. So mine would be CB Bowman, my family name, and then Ottomanelli, my married name.

Well, I wanted, uh, I wanted it to be so because, uh, you see, I come from a large family. So, um, uh, often when you put the, the name after your marriage, I mean, people, uh, most of the time forget about the second name.

Yeah.

So, you know, saying Kasavubu, everyone knows, you know, who Kasavubu is, but Mpoio, it wouldn't have been so sure. So I just wanted to make it clear that I am married to Mr. Mpoio. Also because in our country, you see, becoming, you know, a famous, you know, Well, when you are known, people just, you know, take the first shock, the first glimpse they get. So I just wanted to make sure that every single time they can see me, they don't, you know, forget that I am married. And also because, you see, the social cultural system of my country just didn't really manage, didn't handle correctly the fact that a woman can be also responsible, can become famed. And this was not values that were shared in the past. So being famed, I mean, it meant also for me that I needed my husband's help, which is very exceptional because in traditional society, The woman should be, you know, in the back, in the backyard, you see, and I instead was in the front yard. So I just wanted to make sure that, you know, my husband's name is in connection permanently with me. So this is— Mpoio becomes first and Kasavubu second.

So, so you actually have a choice in your—

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We don't have a— we don't have a law that really determined that how it should be, because you see, after independence, independence, we had 5 years of democracy, but after these 5 years, we had a coup, which, you know, deposed my father, and we had now military rule, dictatorship. And under this dictatorship of Mobutu, many things changed, and also the cultural basis of our country. So it was really a melting pot of all these changes, the names, no more Christian names, no more So everyone just managed to get another— to be baptized again after, you know, personal choices. So I think that it was just good for me to make it clear this way.

And so just tell us briefly, what does your husband do?

Well, my husband is a civil servant of administration. I mean, this was his appointment before all these years of dictatorship. He used to work in our administration. He was working working also in the presidential cabinet, but of course, under dictatorship, it wasn't really easy for him to continue because, of course, Mobutu's system didn't allow him to continue. So we just moved outside and went in exile. So now he is— he has a degree in economics, and he works with me along, and— Yeah, that's, uh, he's economics, chief economics in some private sector, uh, like our foundation, Joseph Kassavubu Foundation. This is his main, uh, you know, uh, in— he focuses on, uh, our association.

Okay, so there's so many things that you just said, I'm gonna— you're gonna take me off my track here. Because I'm fascinated. So before I go off my track, please tell us about you. What was life like as a young person? Tell me about your parents, because I'm very curious to know how you got from A to X here.

Well, as you maybe pointed it, I was born in Leopoldville, the capital. under Belgian Congo, and Leopoldville became Kinshasa. And I grew up in Leopoldville, but being a child in a very large family, I had the opportunity to go to the school just after the colonial reform of, you know, banning segregation. So I went to school with the whites. children as well. So this was my first experience. So I didn't get the chance to, you know, to go to the school only with Blacks. My first experience of education was immediately related with white children. So this was also the first time I met white people and the teachers, etc. So, uh, I mean, my reference is a universal, I mean, system of education.

So I want to interrupt you a few times because, you know, you're saying things that are very fascinating to me. Um, what was it like to see a white person for the first time? How many children in your family? How were you treated in school? I mean, so many questions come up. So, yes.

By the time I— yeah, when I was born, we were a family of 5. In fact, I became the 4th because one of my brothers died at a very early age. So, but later on, we became a family of 9 children. Yes, 9 children, because this was the honorable, you know, I mean, to be respected in Africa, a woman should be, you know, a mother of a very large family. This was, yeah, this was, you know, the quota to be appreciated as, you know, a good mother, etc. But having a father who studied in the seminary and who also worked in the administration, we had the privilege, I mean, to have a very good education. exactly the same as the whites. So asking me, uh, what was it to, to, to meet white children, I mean, yeah, it wasn't a very big surprise. The only difference was, you know, to see girls, for instance, with pigtails, and this would be, you know, the, the first thing we should touch when you, you have a problem. So, because on the other side, they also would, you know, look at us very curiously, uh, how our, you know, hair looks like. So yeah, it was—

Yeah, the white people want to touch our hair. Just why, why is it all curly?

Yeah, exactly, because it was so weird to them, as well as their, you know, hair looked, you know, so strange for us. But so easily to be combed, etc., instead of us, because, you know, it needed more effort to get it clean. So all these kind of, you know, little details, you know, gave me the impression that anyway, it was only appearance. But, you know, at the end, you could only see that we were all children, and, you know, playing together and smiling together, sometimes also crying, sharing some good moments. So there was no difference to me in the very beginning. I think that getting older, then you, you are more aware of how society is going, and then having also a father who was fighting for independence, for more democracy, for more justice, then you get, you know, you keep in touch with what makes society go well and what doesn't. So, I mean, I was very, very much— I had a big impact of my father's fight for decolonization and for our independence. But on the whole, I can think that I didn't really face racism in terms of getting, you know, being expelled from the school. No, it was, you know, handled with some care. Outside, then you can face racism, but at school it was a little bit more good handled by teachers.

More civilized.

Yeah, civilized. Yes, exactly. But also we made efforts. to, you know, to reach the standards, you know, expected by the whites. So this also made it— the equation a little bit more, you know, acceptable to them. So that is— so when the independence fight got closer, of course, it was more and more difficult for my father to keep, you know, looking after a so large family. Mm-hmm. And then politically, they just got some victories. We got elections that brought my father to responsibility. He became a mayor of one of our area communes in Léopoldville. So it gave him a predominant position to negotiate with the Belgian governments. And also he was cheered up by many, many, many people. which of course gave him credibility to become the first president, because he was the first who really put the political issue on the table and claimed it outside everywhere. So he gave the example, and all others followed after that. So my father became first president, but of course the challenge was very huge because, you know, we were Behind the scenes, Congo was exposed to the fight between West— East and West, and this wasn't very easy for a young country like ours with all this wealth, with all these challenges, and well, it was a very difficult experience. That's why my father, after escaping from many ambushes on the school road, He just decided to, you know, to put us outside the country. So he sent me abroad to continue my education because it was not more— it wasn't, you know, possible for him to follow every child. So he thought that the best for him to do was to get us out of the country. To give us a chance to get a good education without too much turmoil and in peace and just looking for the future and not, you know, being disturbed by political issues that happened in Congo. Because as you know, Congo was exposed. The United Nations came in our country. There were so many secessions, you know, that burst everywhere in the country. my father had a very hard task to keep, and it was his destiny.

So when you say that you were exiled, is that when your father sent you abroad?

Yes, he sent us abroad, and by the way, for me the choice was Switzerland. So I grew up in Switzerland, because you see, the challenge was where can I send my children to be sure that they can be in peace. He couldn't do it in Belgium because Belgium has colonial rule, previous colonial rule. It was not easy. So they were sometimes behind the scenes, you know, holding puppets, and it wasn't really easy to send us in Belgium. It was even dangerous, I can say. So what else could he do? Send us in a French-speaking country? Canada, it was too far. So France, he wasn't sure because other, you know, countries who— that were colonized by France in Africa didn't have also good experiences. So the only choice for a French-speaking country, at least a country where you can speak also French, it was Switzerland. And as a neutral country, he thought that this place could be the one that will give us the guarantee to have a good education in peace and far from all these disturbances that Congo was exposed to. So I grew up in Switzerland.

So all of the children went to Switzerland?

No, my children, no. I grew up in Switzerland those years and Also during some years of Mobutu dictatorship, but when I had my degree—

No, no, no, your brothers and sisters, they all went to Switzerland?

Oh yeah, the first year we were 3, 3 of us, we went in 1962, and the year after the younger ones came along, and we all grew up in Switzerland except for my oldest brother who went to Canada. And one of my sisters, my older sister, she went to France. But we all began in Switzerland, and I had the privilege to remain in Switzerland all those years, and I didn't move. By the day I got in Switzerland, I just studied there, I stayed there, I grew up there. I changed schools, of course, several times, but I always remained in Switzerland. That's where I keep my, my reference as education.

And how old were you?

Well, I was just about 11 when I moved, when I left Congo. Yes, I was very, very young. It was just after independence, so I mean, it was very hard to face this experience, but we had no choice because, you see, being President of the Republic and having also all these tensions, as you know, Patrice Lumumba was the Prime Minister And it wasn't very easy for my father. This duality caused many disturbances in the country. So it was also— it became dangerous for us also in the school because you had the Congo split into different factions in the early '60s. So you had on one side Kasavubu partisans and other side you had Lumumba partisans and others also around all those two. So it was very, very difficult to keep your children safe in this— in that time.

But Justine, what I want to ask you, were you sent there by yourselves? I mean, did your mom go with you? How did that work?

No, no, no, they didn't come along. No, it was just a decision taken by my father, and my mother didn't have the choice. She had to accept either to keep the children in the Congo And then you expose them to all these disturbances, and even escaped to be killed once in 1960. So it was quite clear that the best thing for them was to accept that we could go abroad. But my mom didn't come along, and either my father.

So so who escorted you? You're eleven years old.

No no no. C'est-à-dire excuse me. Our education we had educators who just you know were took us you. you know, under their responsibility. We had families, we were great, you know, we lived with families who accepted us and who cared about us, and they just were substitutes of our parents during all these years.

Mm-hmm.

That's why it was possible, you see. It was just like going to a camp where you have educators who look after the children, but in this case, it was more families who accepted us. Just like you can adopt a child.

So I'm gonna— you must have been scared.

Yeah, scared, uh, sad most. No, no, I think I was more sad than scared. Scared, no, because, uh, I was full of confidence. I, I, I knew that it was for my, you know, for, for the best. And also Switzerland just gave me the opportunity to feel— maybe, yes, I had homesick, but anyway, I was feeling like at home a little bit. And it's a very peaceful country, and all the educators were so devoted. So I took it as a privilege, really a privilege. I wasn't scared, no. I had peace. Maybe the, the best years of my life, uh, facing, you know, experiencing, uh, peace was when I was growing up in Switzerland. It really brought me some strength and also, um, faith also, because when you don't know your educators, you don't know the family that adopt you, you know, there is an apprenticeship. You, you have to get used to those people, you know, it's just getting along. You, you have to devote yourself also to, to love them, to accept them as they accept you. So I think that in this balance, you, you get your own way, and as long as you are respectful, things go good.

But don't you feel that that required a great deal of courage? I mean, I know that, you know, it was for your for your best and your family was protecting you. But at 11 years old, that, that was still incredibly courageous.

Yeah, maybe, but circumstances also bring courage. I think that, uh, you don't choose circumstances. You don't choose, uh, the choice of your, your parents. You, you just experience what is decided for you at a certain stage. Maybe later on you can make your own way, But in the very beginning, you have faith in your parents, you have faith in the educators, and sometimes if you are granted with a good character, you make it also easy for them. So all things put together, I mean, courage comes along, but it's more a matter of circumstances that really reveals the character and also values that you carry on. during your education. Values of honesty, you know, determination, and having a vision, and knowing what you are doing, and understanding why you are there, what for, and is it useful for you to be there, and is this experience worth being lived. So all these things together you know, helps someone to, to be courageous, I think. Yes, yes. And you, and you grow up with this.

You know, Christine, you say these things like it's— excuse me— it's to be expected, it's part of life, you know. But I will share with you There are so— maybe it's the American way, maybe it's the family way, but I've seen and heard so many situations where a child is uprooted and it doesn't go well. You had the wisdom to realize it was for your best. You had the wisdom to know that your parents were doing the best for your safety. You had the wisdom to know that this was an incredible opportunity. You had the wisdom to know to love and respect your— we'll call them stepparents.

Mm-hmm.

This is not something that we— This is something that's very deep that your parents instilled in you. I don't know how. It'd be great to know that secret recipe because we could spread it throughout the world, right? But the truth is, when you look at so many people that go the wrong way, they point back to their parents, you know, not being there. So I think it's admirable to hear this. I think our listeners would want to know, and perhaps you can't answer this, what gave you such an incredible belief system?

Well, I think Let me just point out that I'm a Christian. I grew up as Christian, and I think that, you know, so many things have been said about Christianity, but I can assure you that in my experience, all the values that really they gave me, all my education gave me, it was based on a Christianity, I mean, mentality also, because keeping faith. And I mean, sharing so good moments and being considered, also being respected. I mean, it's just incredible as an opportunity, as you said. And I think that my faith And my belief in God, you know, I don't hesitate to say it, helped me a lot because I really had the feeling that every single time my parents were going through difficulties, because, you know, I told you my father was president, it lasted only 5 years, and after that Mobutu made his coup. So all this experience, I didn't live it on the spot. I was, you know, I was abroad. So how can you handle such a situation? Because you— it's like a nightmare sometimes. You see, oh, my father did good for me, but now what happens in my country? What would become of my mother and my father? Is the dictator going to kill them? All these ideas, you know, they come just like a mixture in your mind. So you need faith to go through, and you need also confidence. you know, to, to remain strength, you know, strong, and to keep going, because there is something more— I mean, important beyond all these experiences. Because you, you look also after your own life. Will they be happy to see me completely collapsed and sad all the time, or Can I bring them some happiness if they know that I'm just strong and I'm still, you know, standing and trying to move forward? So I was always— it was always a dilemma for me. What would my parents like me to do? And would they appreciate my attitude or not? So this was the kind of balance of thinking. through my mind all these years. So, uh, um, yeah, it took me— it wasn't always easy. But also what helped me the most was the fact that I was the older, uh, for my younger ones, all my younger brothers and sisters, and I became like a second mother for them. So, uh, bearing this, uh, responsibility gave me also the, the, you know, the, the strength to, you know, to stand still and to give them the example on the other side, you see. So I was sometimes a sister, but sometimes also a mother, taking care of them because they were so much younger than me. But we were all abroad because of the political situation of the parents, so I had to face this responsibility. long ago, before being a mother and a, a wife myself, you see. So this also gave me the opportunity. So I would say it in 2 words: faith and also my values in Christianity. This helped me a lot. Yeah, yeah.

You know, you're almost causing me to tear up because in my listening to you, I was thinking back to my childhood and what gave me strength and what made me the person I am today. And I wouldn't say that it was being a Christian because we were not at church every weekend. But at the same time, somehow I think the values seeped in. Right? So Christianity, you know, you started me thinking, what does that really mean? Does it mean that you're in church every week, or does it mean it's a values— a value set that you, that you can connect with and turn to in times of need? You know, my father was in the military, and I know what you're saying about worrying about them because I grew up in the time with you know, the Cuban Missile Crisis, I always thought my father's going to be killed today. Then the next day I'd wake up, he's going to be killed tomorrow. You know, so there's something in that worry and concern that you think about. And then you look at the things that turn— derail people today. And you say to yourself, My goodness, why don't they have the strength? What is going on? You know, not to put yourself so far above somebody else that you think, you know, you can't be affected, but I often think about what is the difference? You know, I went through incredible racism in corporate America and it made me stronger. But you see other people who face adversity and they just crack, right? So I, I don't know where it takes you, but if it was a formula we can bottle, we could make a lot of money.

Yes, exactly, exactly. But, uh, you know, uh, this money can't buy anyway.

Yes.

So, uh, I mean, um, yeah, what is, uh, how do you define the, the destiny? Uh, what goal are you looking for? And, uh, how useful do you want to be for your own society, for your family, and for your country?

So for yourself?

Yeah, it's just like President Kennedy said once, And he said, no, don't care about what your country can do for you. First, do what you can for your country.

Yes.

If I can remember. So it's exactly the same position I have, and I always had all these years. So I think that the values that you carry on of— maybe I won't be so pretentious, but I think that sometimes you have to take care about the image you bring with you. people see you and how they consider you. So you always have to take care about your behavior and also what you can bring also to others to bring peace around you.

You know, you remind me— I'm sorry to interrupt you, but you reminded me so much just now. My mother would always say, you're judged not by just yourself, but you're judged more by the company you keep.

Exactly, exactly. So, um, yeah, and, uh, also I must also be honest to say that anyway, I had also my, uh, sad periods, you see, because sometimes you, after homesick, uh, you keep thinking, oh, was I wrong here? Oh, was I right? And sometimes, you know, doubt also takes a place.

Yes. Absolutely.

And if you don't doubt, you, you can't move forward. So sometimes periods of doubt helped me also to—

That's interesting. Tell me more about that.

Yeah, because, uh, you see, once my father died, this also was another challenge coming up. Uh, he died in very difficult circumstances. Because, I mean, he was just like in prison, you see, in a remote area. He used to be president and he was no more president, and all belongings were just spoiled, etc. So, I mean, my father had this experience of facing adversity. I wouldn't say he wasn't Christ, but the example of Christ, you know, went through his life. Because accepting that all your belongings just disappear, accepting that you are no more important, accepting that, uh, I mean, you are just looking at the horizon just like somebody who is just approaching death. You see? So he had to remain an example for his country due to what he has done in the past, but also he had to accept it. He didn't want to tomorrow, you know, to go back to power because some military went to see him. Oh, Mr. President, now Mobutu has made his coup d'état, please come back, we need you. He said, no, no, no. If I come along with you, it will mean that people of Congo— there is going to be bloodshed everywhere, all over the place, and I don't want my people to suffer. Let me just take on me all what is happening, because I think that I've done what I could do, and the best is to come, but it belongs also to the next generation to accept that it will be their effort to do, to make, so to make it possible. But don't ask me to come and to take over Mobutu, who took over of me. No, this will bring bloodshed, and I don't want that. So he just took the example of Christ, but also it meant a lot of suffering for his own children because he didn't have the time to prepare anything. So we had to face the future without any consideration of Mobutu. And as you know, this regime lasted more than 30 years, which is 2 political generations in real. So for me, it was just another challenge to go through. Because after his death, we had to turn over the situation again. But how? Because we were supposed to get an inheritance, I mean, in all sense of the term, but it wasn't the case. So we had to move back and start again and just forget that we were children of a first president And just take part of the Congolese destiny to move forward. So this was my destiny, and this was also my choice, but I didn't have also another choice. So—

Okay, I want to stop, um, and I'm going to thank the audience because we only have 60 minutes to record. But I want to continue part 2. So I'm going to say thank you for this incredible interview. And I'm going to say to the audience, you must sign in for part 2 of my interview with Justine, because as you can see, this is a woman of great wisdom. So bye for now, and we'll see you for part 2. Thank you.