CB LIVE! Courage to Leap and Lead with Raj Bandyopadhyay, Episode 93

Hello everybody, this is part 2 of CB Live with my very special guest Raj. Raj just finished telling us about his extraordinary leap from being in computer science to photography, and so if you missed that part, it's on LinkedIn Live. Now we're going to dive into about Raj and his courageous life as a human being, and you're gonna love it. And we're also going to talk a little bit about his work. So Raj, welcome again.

Hi, it's nice to be back.

Raj, now we know that you are a photographer, an extraordinary photographer.

Thank you.

You started to talk about how you got into the field. My question to you is, how did you find the niche? There are zillions of photographers out there that photograph people, but when you look at your work, it's exceptional. It's, it's like the person is sitting right next to you. You really get who they are. How did you How did you come up with that method or that creativity?

That's a really good question. And I think in order to answer that, I'm gonna go back again to that time when I was frustrated with my tech career and looking for alternatives. One of the things I did then was— so there are a couple of things that happened at that time. Around 2017. So I was married, I'm still married to the same person. But that person who was then my wife in 2017 came out as transgender and started transitioning to becoming my husband. So transitioning from male to female. As you can imagine, that's a, that's a pretty big deal in any relationship. Right. And so That was— but what I also saw in that process was how much being in his body or in his— what he felt was his true body and true identity was so powerful for him. And it was very, very inspiring to watch that process happen close up. And for me, that was originally one of the things also that came together in my journey to spark that idea of what do I need to change in my life? So around that time, as I was kind of— photography was already a hobby, but also because of my partner's transition, we had to go through a lot to navigate that relationship. And one of the things I did to navigate that relationship was see a lot of— do work with a relationship coach. And that was very intense and very interesting on its own. And then at the end of that, I was like, okay, maybe I wanna do relationship coaching as a profession because a lot of people need that in all kinds of relationships. And so I trained to become a relationship coach. In fact, I trained to become not just a relationship coach, but a sex and relationship coach, because those two are very tied together. Now, at the end of that, I realized that what I— I didn't actually want to be a coach. It didn't fit my personality or my kind of the way I wanted to work. But I was also passionate about photography. So I wanted to combine the 2 things somehow. It's like, can I combine sex and relationship coaching with photography? And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna do boudoir photography, because that's an obvious kind of thing where you do more photography of people, mostly women in more, in more kind of sexy or flirty poses and things like that. So I did a lot of studying on that and looked at all the standards and looked at what all the other photographers are doing, and learned enough technical skills to start doing that. And I was bringing some of my sex and relationship coaching kind of skill into it. But I was still doing what all other photographers, most of the photographers is doing. I was kind of imitating what was standard. Did that for a year or so. And then COVID happened, which meant that all indoor shoots were shut down for a bit. I just couldn't do anything indoors. And this is a kind of photography that does have to happen indoors. But that also gave me a time to reflect a little bit on what I was doing. And I realized that that kind of photography didn't fundamentally feel right to me. There was something about it that was off, and I couldn't put 100% of myself into it. And I realized what was feeling off about it was this idea that for a person, and especially a woman, but anybody, to look sexy meant that they have to wear certain kinds of clothes, or like lingerie, or lack thereof, or— or pose in certain ways. Like, there's this very fixed idea of what sexy looks like. And that wasn't very satisfying to me. Because when you actually talk to real people and try to get what sexy or desirable or what looks truly looks like for them, it's very different. Every individual has their own way of doing it. And most people like, you know, very unique ways of doing it, the clothes that they feel good in their body, the way they express themselves physically, what wear they are, what actions they're doing, they're all different for all of us. So why don't we capture that? And then as I started reflecting on that, I realized that's true for almost every genre of photography. So take professional photography, for instance. When, you know, everybody wants to, for example, in a professional shot, whether it's branding or a corporate headshot, look, everyone wants to look confident. That's one of the biggest requests I get. But what confidence looks for you, CB, is very different for what looks like me, right? Your confidence comes when you're wearing your beautiful eyeglasses and, you know, like showing up on your podcast in a certain way, right? That's confidence. That's what brings out your inner confidence. What brings out my confidence is something different. And same for everybody. For some one person, confidence might be like sitting in a boardroom and wearing a suit. For someone else, confidence might be like walking in a park in a beautiful dress and feeling the breeze.

Yeah.

So we gotta capture what it means for individuals. And again, you know, but what we end up doing is we just put everybody, you know, we just stuff everyone into a gray suit and put them in a power pose and be like, this is what confidence should look like for you. And we're gonna take a picture. And that too wasn't satisfying for me. So I started doing branding as a way so I could do shoots outdoors during COVID And as I started doing that, I realized how much I enjoyed capturing that true kind of confidence and the true expression of whatever values that my client wanted to express, you know, in whatever shape or form that it took genuinely for them. And I think it goes back to this whole idea of what started my journey with my partner's gender transition and then my transition. It's about finding both of us, for both me and my my partner, it's about finding our more authentic selves. And we've been both through that journey, like in this house, all of ours. And I want to bring that to like every client I work with, that help them find that authentic self, that authentic confidence that they have inside them, and that authentic expression of whatever values that they hold dear to them.

Wow. Okay. How do I unpack everything that you just said? I know my audience is not used to me being quiet for that long, but I was afraid to interrupt you. Okay. Let's go back and forgive me if I ask stupid questions or ignorant questions.

Please, please. Very— I'm very open about this stuff. So please.

So my first question is, I don't— I honestly don't know where to start. But okay, let's start with your definition of love.

Hmm.

Because it is intrinsically tied to courage, which I have not thought about courage in that particular way. So How did you know that you were going to be courageous enough or love enough to support your partner? And by the way, why do you say partner instead of husband?

They're both fine. I, I use them interchangeably.

Okay. So how did you— first of all, how did the conversation come about? And were you upset? Were you shocked? What were you feeling? And then where did the courage come from to acknowledge the depth of your love?

Yeah, so that's a— those are really good questions. So it wasn't a complete surprise. Uh, we'd been married at that point, we've been together for almost, what, 9 years at that time, and, uh, married for about 7. And when we got together, we just looked like any other, you know, typical heterosexual couple, except that he is, you know, today a white man from Texas, then a white woman from Texas, and— or at least perceived that way. And but other than that, we look like a typical heterosexual couple. But sometime in the— in a couple of years before that, He was— he started experimenting more with gender and started feeling, expressing a lot of dissatisfaction about his body, more so than the typical, you know, most people express. It's about really feeling like he's in the wrong body and all of that kind of feeling, that what's called gender dysphoria, which a lot of transgender people experience at different— and that can come about at many different ages. So—

What does that mean exactly?

Obviously, I'm not a trans person, so I can't— I don't have that experience. But from the way I understand it, it's a deep feeling of being in the wrong body. It's like, I am not in the right body and experiencing almost like phantom body parts or lack thereof. Like you have a different body inside you. And I've heard like similar things talk, you know, I don't know. I mean, it's hard to compare or like explain it when you don't have that experience, but that's the best I can explain it for someone, for someone else.

So I guess I liken it to men who are, whose wives are pregnant, and they start feeling the pregnancy pains You know, and so it's, it's, it's like a pseudo pregnancy. Yeah, yeah, they go through the same experiences as their wife— morning sicknesses, pain like that.

Possibly. I think that could be a good analogy. At least it's, it's an analogy in the sense that it, it's possible to experience your body differently from what it physically is.

Yeah.

And I think we normally don't think about that because for most of us, it doesn't happen. We have our body and we feel like, oh, that's the body I'm in. But for some people, I mean, yeah, phantom limbs are a good example of, you know, that are a good analogy for that too, where people lose a limb and they really feel like they have that limb back. So that's one. So that's an example or an analogy that can be compared to. I've heard from people who are trying to lose or gain weight on sometimes that, or like change their body shape where they feel like there's a different person inside of them. Their body shape doesn't align with their internal view of their body.

I totally get that. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's a very strong feeling for some people. Like, most of us want to look fitter than we are. I mean, that's just normal. There's a normal range for that. And for some people, it's like really extreme. Where it's like, no, that is not my body. Like, I, like, you know, I'm really a different person inside. So it's a very— again, that's an analogy. I think we can— the best we can do without actually experiencing that gender dysphoria is to make analogies like this.

Yes, yes.

Yeah. So it's a feeling. So he had expressed that a few times and started experimenting with clothing, like wearing only men's clothes, very masculine clothing, stuff like that. And so when—

how did you feel at that time?

Well, we were living in San Francisco in a very open, you know, supportive community around queer and gender expression. So it wasn't like very difficult or very hard. I did feel a little bit of disappointment. And because I was like, you know, there are all these scripts about, you know, we experience about what a relationship should look like, what a marriage should look like, and what— and I, you know, there are gender roles that are prescribed to us by society about what a man should look like, what a woman should look like. And so obviously we were not fitting into that, and there was definitely some disappointment about that, but also recognizing that we actually overall had a very strong and supportive relationship, which I valued a lot at that time. And then when he actually came out as transgender and expressed a desire to try to start the gender transition process, That was obviously not, as I said, not a complete shock because he had been going down that journey, but I'd hoped it wouldn't go so that far because that would make my life easier, but it happened. And so then I did have to spend a lot of time reflecting and processing and getting support from coaches and people and talking to a lot of friends. And what I realized was that I was in my mid-30s or late 30s, It was the time— it's the time in many people's lives. Most of my friends were, you know, male friends were in also in that around that same age range where they were in their late 30s to early 40s. And it's also the time when a lot of people get divorced in their lives. A lot of their— the late 30s to early 40s is when most divorces, at least, you know, happen. Many divorces happen. So I was talking to a lot of friends who were in the process of getting divorced or just had a divorce or were thinking about it. and were unhappy in their marriages. Then when I had those conversations, I realized that most— for most people who are married, creating a long-term supportive relationship that is— that has a lot of trust and 100% support and all of that built in is extremely hard. That is very, very hard for most people. And that's why And that can adapt with time, because it takes a lot of work over time. We fall in love, we, you know, the first couple of years are fine. And then we start coasting. And then, you know, at some point, we— people realize that they have just become different people and gone on different paths. And then they can't reconnect anymore. It becomes hard. You have kids, you have life, careers, and you're kind of going in parallel or diverging. And then you're like, oh, shit, we don't We, we don't know who we are anymore, or each other, we don't know each other anymore. So that's what happens to a lot of people. It takes work to constantly maintain that connection and support. And the nature of that changes, right? The first couple of years, it's very sexual, it's very intense, it's very romantic. And then it might become more like a partnership of different— or companionship, like things change all the time, and you have to adapt. And my husband and I, we His name is Andy. So Andy and I had done a lot of that work over the years because of like, because of we had, we were navigating this unconventional relationship, which is already unconventional in some ways because of his gender exploration and various other things. So we put in a lot of that work. And so we were relationship-wise, we were in a very, very solid place.

Mm-hmm.

And we were, we, we basically had redefined our marriage in a way That, you know, to us marriage is about helping each other. Again, going back to that theme of authenticity, helping each other to be who we want to be. To us, that's what marriage means. And we're just a team that— and we are helping each other be who we want to be. And so we had done this lot of work, and that, when I talked to my friends, felt harder to achieve. That was the thing that's hard for most people, like achieving that trust, that connection, that that support. So to throw it all away for one reason, which is change of gender, didn't feel like worth it. It's like, why would you throw away everything good that you've built because one thing isn't working? I mean, no marriage is perfect. And we have the thing that's actually hard already created. So why throw, throw away the whole thing?

Right.

And so that was a big reason for me to decide to continue. And it's worked out really well because the way we've done this is like, I have 100% stood behind him in this journey of finding his true body and identity. And he's 100% stood behind me in making this whole like career change, which required a lot of sacrifice, you know, financial and otherwise on both our parts. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Wow. My gosh. Okay. What gave him the courage to talk to you about this? Was he not afraid that you would leave?

Oh, he was. He was very afraid. I mean, but you know, it's also part of having a good relationship is being honest, right, about stuff like this.

Yeah.

Wow.

Okay, I don't even know what question to ask you other than— because it is so, so special. It's so— it's stupid to say it's so adult, right? That's a stupid comment. But I can't think of what else to say. Because I, I'm a newlywed. I'll be married 2 years in July. And I always thought that marriage was this glamorous thing. And, you know, fantasyland, you know?

Yeah.

And then once I got married, I thought, damn, this is a lot of work. So I understand really what you're saying. And, and then, and then there's the piece about love. Right? And so love stands right in the middle. And then you have all this stuff all around trying to push love smaller and smaller, right? But you guys had all this stuff around, and your love actually got bigger and bigger and bigger.

Mm.

And so it's a book in itself, let's put it that way. Because There's so much learning in what you said that I almost want to say it's, it's a shame that you're no longer a sex therapist because the— there's so few people that you can go to, to have these kind of deep, honest conversations as a guide. And it's really hard for— in a relationship to have 2 people That want to go for help in order to stay together. You know, most of the time I think it's one person in the relationship that really presses the other person to go, but it's not a 2-person deal, right?

Yeah. I think like doing relationship maintenance by going to a therapist or a coach, regardless, it doesn't matter. There are many, many people who do those kinds of practices and they all come at it from different ways. is one of the best things you can do for maintenance. It's just like, make it a commitment. It's like, you, you know, that you're, you know, we need to get out of the fairy tale we have in our heads that every marriage is going to look like, you know, live happily ever after because the prince and princess have found each other. Like, we need to throw that fairy tale out because that is a fairy tale.

Yes.

They never— the fairy tales do not talk about what happens after they get married. That is not—

you may live happily ever after, but man, it's work. Yeah.

So, uh, so it's, it's almost like maintenance. You gotta do the maintenance. You gotta, like, you know, like any fine-tuned, like, like machine. It's, it's, it— because humans, we change with time, and we're not the people we, we were when we got married to this person.

You know, it's, it's funny you use the word maintenance because I just had my hair done yesterday.

So yeah.

I have to maintain it, you know. It's right, not unsimilar. If I want to look good, I better continue to put those oils on my face and get my hair done and all that stuff, right?

Yeah. So you maintain your house, you maintain your car, why not maintain your—

Exactly, exactly. Love it. Yeah, I think my chapter is going to be The Courage to Maintain.

I mean, in the context of relationships, it's true because most people don't do it, or they— there is shame around having to do it.

Yes, it's true. It's true.

Yeah, it's an idea that, you know, if you're— if you have true love, then things will just magically, I don't know, work itself out, or whatever we say.

You know what's interesting is when you have— when you select friends, you know, I learned a long time ago That true friendship is not people who talk about how great they have it. It's also not about people who tell you a sob story.

Yeah.

But people who tell you about life in the real zone.

Beautiful.

That's what you're talking about.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I want to ask you now a couple of pointed questions And you've had such a rich background, you're going to probably have— you're going to— my English today— you will probably have several answers. Through all of your courage journeys, what do you point to as being the greatest lesson learned?

Yeah. So I think— what's the word? How do I answer? There's so many answers, you're right. But overall, I think the greatest lesson learned is one of the oldest lessons that philosophers and sages have talked about for thousands of years, which is know thyself. And we think we know— that's not easy, knowing yourself, knowing who you are. But it's the first step, almost like when you know yourself, or you start knowing yourself, you, you get to figure out how do you build your life around that, around who you are. So let's make— give an example. So when I started building this photography business, this one person, I'd never built a business before. 5 years ago, if you had asked me, I wouldn't even— I would laugh at the idea that I would build a business of my own, and especially one that's not in tech. Because the most I would think of is like, oh, maybe I'll like try to do a startup or something someday. But the idea that I would just completely leave and go into this completely different field and build a business, that would just be unimaginable. So I had no experience. So at the beginning, I did what most solo entrepreneurs do. I worked with a lot of coaches, read a lot of business books, and tried to do a lot of the sort sales and marketing kind of frameworks and tactics and strategies that are said in those books. And I flailed around for a while, nothing really worked. And then I had this friend I had a conversation with, I remember in late 2020, I was very frustrated. This friend of mine is a close friend who's a therapist, and has an extremely successful practice. And she just stopped me, I remember in the middle of the conversation and was like, Raj, What if you decided to build a business in accordance with your personality, like just around who you are, instead of trying to do all these sales and marketing things that make you do things that are not aligned with who you are? Like you're trying to be an extrovert in sales when you're actually an introvert. You're trying to do this marketing thing, this particular tactic, like, you know, like this kind of hard sell or marketing tactic that you basically, you know, it makes you want to puke, but you're doing it because you're supposed to do it. And nothing wrong with the tactic itself, it's just that it didn't align with who I am. So I was doing all these things because I'm supposed to. And then listening to that line by her, like, stopped me in my tracks. And I just stopped, remember, like, I stopped doing all sales and marketing for a couple of months. So I could just go back inward and reflect who I truly am and who I wanna show up as, and then rebuild my marketing and sales. Like, how do I want to do it? what work feels good for me? How does it feel good for me to connect with potential clients? How does it feel good for me to like, what kind of conversations do I want to have when I'm talking on a sales call even? Right? There's so many ways to have a sales call, what feels right for me? And so really kind of focusing on understanding myself and aligning everything in my life around that, I find that the more I align all aspects of my life around who I am, the better and happier I am. And the more successful my work tends to be. So I think that's probably the biggest lesson I would draw from this.

So what I find this very interesting because I'm an introvert.

Yeah.

And I hate selling. I hate it with a passion. So what do you do to let people know that you exist than having friends like me?

Let's say, okay, well, that's actually a big one, right? For me, like having, having the right, like, I think what's been working for me as a sales and marketing strategy the most, I post a lot on LinkedIn. I've just, to be honest, I've hired somebody on social media who'll do my social media for me. They post based on content I give them a couple of times a week. That's been working as a way, but I see it as a way to just kind of stay alive and keep a regular cadence of posting and build credibility. In terms of marketing, the best thing that has worked for me is to build relationships with people who are aligned with my values. Like find people who are more established than I am in complementary fields, like establish relationships with coaches and people who train public speakers or people who train executives or whoever my potential clients might be or stylists who are in complementary fields. And whose values— that's important, but not just anybody, like whose values are truly aligned with me. And take the time to do that. Like, it takes time, it's slower, but once you align with a person, then you wanna send them business and they wanna send you business. It just happens. It's a joy to do that. That's what I find. And so I've been doing a lot of that for my marketing. And then my website and other materials, I really put a lot of thought into into that to make sure that people get a clear sense of my work. Like my photography, I do it in a way that's a little different from other photographers. I focus a lot on authentic emotion, and I'm a big fan of not being perfect. Photography is one field where we become perfectionists, most of us. We wanna look perfect. We wanna hide our flaws and our wrinkles and scars and all of that. And we want our hair to look perfect. Like everyone wants that, like, you know, because it's the standard. Because, because we all— the way I like to say it is that we are afraid of not looking enough because we are afraid of not being enough. And right, so it brings out our perfectionist in us. And I'm a big fan of imperfection. I'm like, I don't care about whether every strand of your hair is in place. I don't care about whether some wrinkles are showing. I care about the emotion that you're bringing to the camera, because I believe that that's what people connect with. And that's not true for everybody, but my clients definitely work with me, they want that, they are aligned with me, and that's the reason. So I show a lot of my work on my website, I talk a lot about my process, and so what happens is that by the time somebody shows up on a sales call with me, they've already filtered themselves, they already self-selected. A lot of people are not showing up on my sales call because they want those, you know, perfect photos and You know, everything like, you know, retouched perfectly. And they look at my work and they're like, yeah, that's not, you know, that's not what I want. And they never talk to me, which is great.

Right. Self-select, right.

They self-select. So the people who show up on my calls, like, I find that 95% of the time they're already aligned with my values. They already kind of, they've seen my work. They already know that that's the kind of work they want. They like the process, or at least what they've read about it. And so at that point, there's no need to hard sell anymore. Like, it's a— it becomes a matter of, like, of connecting as humans and seeing if we align. Actually, there's actual chemistry. It's like, you know, seeing a profile on a dating app versus going on a date, right?

Yes.

You can, you can align perfectly on a dating app and, you know, messages, and then you, then you meet them in person, it's like, oh, there's no chemistry. Shit. That happens, right?

Yes.

Ultimately, there is, like— so basically We, when we have a sales call, it's almost about like, is there chemistry, professional chemistry, I guess? Is there like, are we gonna work together with each other? Is this a human I wanna work with from on both sides? And then is this the right time for me? Is the, you know, is this to invest in this? That becomes the conversation. There's no need to like, for me to convince them to buy anything. So it becomes a very human conversation, which as an introvert is very good for me. I don't— it doesn't— I don't feel the pressure to like, I need to like convince this person to like buy this thing. Yeah. It's like, here's my process, here's how it works. And if this is the right time for you, then we'll do it right now. Otherwise, I'm here, come back to me when it's— when you're ready.

You know, Raj, I hate to end this. So, but I have another meeting. But what I'm going to recommend, because I just love talking to you, is that we do another segment. So audience, stand by. We're going to do another segment. Yeah.

And I'd love to hear from the audience what they thought about it so far. And if they have any other questions, totally happy to answer those.

Perfect. Okay. Raj, stay on. We're going to talk some more. Audience, I hope you will join me next week. And we have another— of course, you know, I always have amazing guests, and I want to share their intelligence, their warmth, their spirit with you. So please tune in and don't tune out. How about that one? Pretty clever. See you next Tuesday. Thank you so much, Raj.

Thank you. It was lovely talking to you, CB, always.