CB LIVE! Courage to Leap & Lead with Guest Gina London, Episode 98

Hello everybody, it's Tuesday. You know, I've been off for a little bit and I missed you guys so much. I have been doing a fabulous thing. My husband and I went to Banff, Canada, and we attended Renaissance Weekend where I presented as a panelist, as a workshop person— workshop leader, And as a host, and I met the most amazing people. So it didn't make up for my missing you, but gosh, it was incredible. Now back to you guys. I have a great guest today, Gina London. Gina is my first journalist to Did you know that? And I actually am going to have another journalist coming on, so watch me on LinkedIn. This other journalist, she's another one. You know, I'm meeting all these very powerful women. What's up with that? I love it. I love it. So Gina is also a speaker, and she wrote about me in her column. I was so grateful. And she lives in Ireland. Hey, do you know that the show Shazam is, uh, produced in— I think it's Australia? So everything is international now. I could talk to Gina in Ireland and you can listen in and it's all good. Fantastic. Gina, welcome to Courage to Leap and Lead.

Thank you.

And I know that you have some phenomenal stories as a female Well, thank you, CB.

My career with CNN— and when I started out as a newspaper journalist, and then my career with CNN was for almost over 10, almost just about 10 years in Washington, D.C. as a White House correspondent. I lived in it and worked in Atlanta as an anchor. I covered environment in Colorado. And then my last port of call until 2003 was with CNN in New York with the coverage of the 9/11 and the post-terrorism, War on Terrorism as they called it. But I've had the fortune of covering politics, of breaking news, of weather, of human interest stories, of sports. And what always captivated me and what got me into journalism in the first place was the ability to help people tell their stories. And so that's really what drove me as a girl from small town in Indiana to ultimately being in that White House press briefing room in Washington, D.C., and getting up the courage to raise my hand and ask a president a question. So it's been a journey, and I'm very passionate now about stories, storytelling, helping other people then be able to tell their story with the same sorts of confidence and comfort that I learned along the way through the rigors of 24-hour news.

You know, there's so many directions I could take this interview. I'm not sure which one I'm going to take first. First, I think let's talk about storytelling as it relates to women. You know, when storytelling became big as a name, right, and used in counseling and coaching, I was stunned. And I thought, what is this nonsense? You're going to sit down and read, uh, you know, Alice in Wonderland to CEOs. And then I finally realized that storytelling is just a name that's thrown at something we've done for years, which is telling our information to somebody else. It's sharing information. So when you say your passion is storytelling, what does it mean to you and how has it— Come about? How has it displayed itself?

Yeah, well, I think for me, stories— well, like any of— if you're, if you're a child back before you were looking at things on your, on your phone and looking at YouTube Reels and TikToks, and you would, you would, you would read.

God, what a concept!

Extraordinary thing called reading. And so I, I got really into the classics. I love to read the Jane Austen and the Brontë sisters. And, and I liked the transporting of myself to a different time and a different place and another woman's experiences through the things that I, that I read, or any individual. Then I also supplemented that with reading newspapers. I read voraciously to learn about places in far-flung towns and countries like Paris and, and Jerusalem and, and Rome. And, and these headlines from other places really captivated me about the broader world. So that's The power of reading, the power of making then a story, the information with that in that book or that news article, making it compelling is distilling it to those personal shared common fears or aspirations or elements that connect us as people. And so that's where I thought I really like the power of words. I like the power of construct, how we can take even, I don't know, an economic story, but then personalize it and make it be more interesting for a subject matter that might seem dry to many, can make it come alive with putting names and faces to it. So that's where I got captivated on the idea of storytelling and then learning the craft of it. And in some ways, a little bit of the oversimplification of it that happens in television news in particular, but that requires you to get to the essence. of stories. It requires you to come up with some of these tactics like hooks and interest and making those names and making the things come alive in a short amount of time. Because one thing we've learned throughout since I started reading is that people's attention spans are really becoming more reduced. So how do we keep them hooked? How do we keep them captivated? And then after my career with CNN, then—

Hold it one second. That's knowledge.

Sorry.

So I'm going to talk a little bit about that hook, right? Yeah, because let's, let's get into the details of this storytelling, the art of storytelling. Yes, because you know, there are a lot of times when you hear people and they're talking about themselves or situations and man, you want to fall asleep. It's so non-compelling. It's not pulling you in. So what are the secrets to to finding that hook to get people ready to listen. And also, I want to talk to you about books I've been reading. I have found them to be incredibly boring. I don't think I've read an exciting book since I've read the Harry Potter series, to be quite frank.

Well, you know, I was talking to a nonfiction editor as I'm working on my first nonfiction book or my first book. business-style book in what I do now in corporate coaching and training.

Well, and here it is, though.

No, no, go ahead.

I am working on my book also, and what I found in books that I read, the first chapter is repeated over and over again, just turned and twisted a little bit so that you don't think it's the same thing being repeated. And I find that really annoying. What I found intriguing about Harry Potter books is—

Mm-hmm.

And it didn't occur to me until I finished the first book, that she's actually writing 2 books in one book. She's weaving it together. One book she's writing is for adults because it talks about abuse, child abuse. It talks about drugs. It talks about, you know, persuading people in a way that's not good for them. And then there is the story, the children's version. Same words, same thing. It sort of reminds me of when I was at the New School for Social Research, where we were taught to read. Now people ask, what do you mean you were taught to read in college? Yeah, I was taught to read in college because we learned how to read what was not written and how to massage the data of what was written. That to me is a good writer, not what we're seeing now. So how does storytelling fit into this?

Well, yeah, interesting threads that you've just raised there too. A couple of things that I'll pick up on is one, the idea that what— how do people stay with it if you don't have— if you have more than a minute 30 like what I would be doing in a CNN report, but you're wanting someone to read, what's that story? How are you compelling them to continue? Maybe you've got these dual angles like you were talking about with J.K. Rowling. Maybe you've got people that are becoming more interested and critical thinkers as they're reading. But what I was going to say is I'm finding from now the research that I'm doing around what, what books are being published and how readers are digesting them, that the editor I was speaking to says, let's face it, people only read the first 3 chapters of any book.

Oh my God, I thought I was the only one.

So you're not. So what does that say? That's a real, that's a real challenge, isn't it? It's like, well, I better make something more interesting. Or I better put all the information in the front because they're not gonna read for— so what I try to do from a speaking perspective with the clients that I work with, and I hope I can do it in the book too, is to add those levels of story that isn't just pedantic instructional. You do this and then you do this like a cooking show description, but you build in some stories about intrigue and what was gonna happen and make people wonder more about the shared experience and have them feel like, oh, I can relate to this. That's That's the whole idea about stories is that if it's just information, only one little part of our brain is lighting up. If you start to talk about colors and scents and seasons and temperatures and things that we have a shared human experience around, then that lights up more parts of our brain. And that makes us stay with you as a speaker, hopefully as a reader, and want to turn pages and want to keep going. So it's important, I think, to Keep that focus when you're speaking at a story. Have it be interesting. Have it be colorful. Have there be a friction. Have there be some tension. Have there be a resolution. Have it have common human characteristics of triumph or of disappointment or of vulnerability or of failure. But if it's just do it my way or do this and it's one of those sorts of instructional manuals, I think people will tune out.

Yeah. Yeah, well, let's go back to the word you just mentioned, tension. How do you create tension in what you're writing?

Well, I think one thing, again, first of all, know your audience. Find out or try to consider what it is that they're hoping for. However, if you're going to be— if you're writing fiction, I, I'm not a fiction writer, I really can't be speaking too much about—

yes.

Involves story plot, it involves subplots.

Easy then.

And there'd probably be a whole other discussion about a mystery and how you unfold and how you tease them to read the next chapter. But I think some of the same, same approaches and the same application should, should be relevant. So if you're going to be exciting people about what your book is going to say or what your presentation is going to say, Keep being aware that this person or people that are reading it are reading you for the first time. So make sure that you keep them with you on the story. If there's a result that's going to happen, maybe you don't give it away at the beginning. Maybe you tease it a little bit so that they want to see what happens next. Maybe you dangle it at the end of chapter 1 and pick it up as a reward if they finish chapter 2. I don't know all the different devices, but I think— Keeping aware that people don't necessarily want to read you. So what are you going to do to entice them? And then think of the variations of emotion that you can bring them along with you. And what are those devices that you're going to do? Not just the information, but the story that's going to support and enliven what you're going to do.

Yeah, I love that. It's, it's not— so many books are a mind dump and it's just you get to the point where you go, enough. I know what they're going to say. I know it's just not intriguing anymore. Now here's one. Um, yesterday, yeah, yesterday I met with our Authors Writing Club in the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches. So it's a few of us who want to get a book out this year, right?

Right.

And, uh, one of the members who has written I think it's 3 books now. He's on his 4th book. He said he's been doing some research on what CEOs read. Now this will, this will freak you out. And he said CEOs don't like to read how-to books. They like fables. And I said, wait, drop the mic. What are you talking about, a fable?

Robin Sharma.

What was that?

Robin Sharma. He's the, the The, the, um, 5 O'Clock Club, for example. It's a whole book that's essentially— the information is the how-to is you're more effective when you wake up at 5 AM. But the way he writes it is there's a lady and there's another guy and they go to this presentation, and then there's a guru and he takes them on a helicopter and he takes them to this beautiful island, and the island is all descriptive about how sandy, and here's his morning routine. And I mean, and I'm not trying to downplay Robin Sharma because of course he's amazing, and he, he talks about, uh, what's his other famous book about the The Buddhist and the Motorcycle or something like that. You're going to get— you guys who are fans of Robin Sharma are going to come at me, but he's made, in essence, his coaching style, his personal development approach, all of his books, or the books I've read anyway, are wrapped around a fable. And that's his technique, or that's his device. And so if that's what CEOs are reading, well, Robin Sharma has tapped into that.

Interesting. I had not heard this before, and I forget what book they mentioned, um, the principles of something that was written in that way, and I thought, okay, so this is definitely Harry Potter style.

That's it.

But to take, you know, how to build a team and put it into a fable, that takes some Gifted writing.

I think so. And I think it takes— it takes the creativity and it takes a difference of approach. And it probably takes a lot of patience too, because whereas I might say after I put down Robin Sharma's book about The 5 O'Clock Club going, okay, what's my number one takeaway? Get up at 5 AM because you're going to be more productive. Great. That's one sentence. That's not a book.

Yes. Good point. Well, I'm going to have to look those 2 books up because I'm curious to see how he did it, what the specific style is, although my book is 3 quarters of the way done. So. Yeah, that's the thing.

And I did hear from another Dave Jennings, and again, I can't think of the name of his particular— many of the books he's written, but his, his word of advice for me and for others, yourself included, the book you publish is better than the book you don't. So don't scrap it.

Okay, I have it on the tape here, but it's the book.

Yeah, the book you publish is better than the book you don't, which is just a simple way of saying get her done. Don't overthink it because the first one can lead to the second one, which can help you. The second one can be your fable, CB. I mean, the idea, I think, for all of us who say we've got a book in us, or we say we want to contribute a book. And I had a hard time with this myself, and it's taken some, some, a lot of discussion and a little bit of reflection too. Discussion with other published authors, um, Roger Connors and, and Liz Wiseman, some of the other well-known—

Do you know Liz? I know Liz.

Well, I, I met Liz through, through, um, Dave Pilford, who's potentially going to help me with editing, editing, um, my book. And, and her— and I'll be very upfront because her sharing with me, because she's very academic and very well thought out and, and lots of footnotes. And it's really— I mean, she was— she showed me all of the, the notebooks and the, the Post-its that she goes into, the amount of research to make.

That's like reading a graph. Have you read her book? Reading a graph? Oh my God. It's called Seeing around corners. Okay, I think it's a mind blower.

Okay, you're gonna walk out paranoid. Yeah, well, and the takeaway from Liz though, which I found actually very difficult to, as a former journalist, to embrace, she said, what's your big idea? What's your big idea? Her seminal book that she wrote, Multipliers, that was her big idea that, that that leaders either multiply their teams or they diminish their teams. Again, oversimplifying here. I'll be real honest with you, CB, that when Liz said that to me, I had a real crumble of ego or self-confidence around that because I thought I don't have a big idea in the sense that— here's why. I think this can be a self-limiting thing for lots of people, so hear me out, folks. When I was challenged to have a big idea, don't forget I come from Like CNN or not like CNN, I come from a real journalistic background where I would interrogate every word I would say. I wouldn't say, for example, if someone was in a court, that they believed that something, or that they were angry. I would say they appeared angry because there's a nuance in that wording.

Yeah.

So that was very tough for me to go, oh, I have a big idea that's never been said before. Are you kidding?

Yeah.

And I would even push back on, on Liz, with all great respect, that the idea that there's a multiplier or diminisher is not hot off the press. But see, this is where I think now on this evolution of thought about it, is that if you think it's a big idea and you haven't heard it talked about a lot, and you can stand up for why your approach to this big idea is a big idea and it can cut through some of the other derivations of that big idea, by golly, you have a big idea. And I think that is important.

And I, I totally agree. And I went through exactly what you're going through. Did you?

Okay.

My mentor said the same thing to me. Exactly. And I just went through it again. So once you go through that and you start writing your book, you are going to go through it again and again and again. And it's really what we're talking about is what is your aha moment? Because what's an aha moment for you is going to be an aha moment for somebody else.

And that's it.

And I think that you're not reinventing the ball. It's how you see that ball bouncing. It's going to be different.

Yes. Okay. And that's where story comes into play. Because for me, the story of the impact I've made on the clients I've been privileged to coach with, The teams I've worked with, the college students I've been able to speak before, and then hearing what they say. Now, that is the— those are the stories that are unique to me and my experience with them. And I want to make sure that those stories are in there in a captivating way that others will connect with. And hopefully that, that will help them know they're not alone, help them know that the fears they have, others have. And here are some of the techniques and the strategies that can help them. Breakthrough.

So can you tell us your idea about your book without revealing too much?

Yeah, sure. The idea that I'm embracing, maybe to add to the conversation, but at any rate, that I am really fully embracing now is built from the work I've been doing around how do you have harmony with self-acceptance but also layer on self-development. And this to me is the crux of what I call the myth of authenticity. And I did speak on this in my first TED Talk a couple of months ago in the UK. And this notion— and actually Liz did share this with me. She says, Gina, I like this idea coming at a time when so many people are saying, take me as I am, this is who I am, take your whole self to work. You're encouraging people to take their best self to work.

Yeah.

And she said to me, that actually is a big idea at this point.

Absolutely.

Taking your best self to work doesn't mean that you have to get rid of every other part of you, but that you are developing your authenticity, becoming more mindful and purposeful about how you connect with others and yourself. That's the crux of what I'm working on right now.

I think even greater than that, if I may say, it's taking your whole self to work or to any place where you're going, But also allowing your whole self to be open to change and transition.

Lovely.

And so many of us are afraid of that, including myself, because it doesn't mean that you're afraid all the time. It means it's specific-driven. Yes. And each time you run into a situation, it's not going to be the same as before. So you have to open yourself to say, how am I going to handle this situation? What can I learn from it? What could I add to it? What's the value that I can bring?

That's great. That idea, what value I can bring and how can I be open, yeah, is something different than how can I change myself just to be manipulative or exploitative to achieve my goal. No, but how can I be adding value and genuinely care?

A lot of people struggle with that, especially I think people of color, because the concept is if you change, you're not your true self.

Yes.

If you change how you look for work, that's not the true you. And you see it now, even people who are of color and who are not of color. Let me wear the earrings in my ear that are tin earrings, you know, on my nose and my forehead or my eyebrows. Because the environment or the culture that you work in does not represent that same look. It doesn't mean if you take them out to go to work and put them in the minute you leave, doesn't diminish from who you are. You're a person. That's just accessories. I choose to change my glasses for a different podcast. That's an accessory. I'm not changing who I am, I'm just changing the glasses, right? We have to recognize that. We need to accept that instead of fighting the changes that can really make us more whole.

Right. And stories like that and stories like the others that you were just talking about, if we can build those stories in to help people see themselves in them and see that, oh, you mean I can still do this and this? It's not an either/or, right? Then that could be an exciting way. And that's where stories again are so powerful to underpin anything so that we can find more of the ways that we can connect and not more the ways that we are different and can be divided.

Yeah, here's where I stumble, you know, after— so my book is, as I said, 3/4 of the way done. And when I went to Renaissance Weekend—

CB, what's the big idea on your book?

Courage.

Oh, right, of course. Yes, that makes sense.

But, you know, Brené Brown has written about courage, so people said, oh, like Brené Brown? I said, no, not like Brené Brown, like CB Bowman.

Yes.

And so it's looking at courage from a different perspective.

That's it.

Than the other great viewers of courage, because we've examined courage throughout the decades, but somehow we have been lost in the word as meaning some macro thing that you have to do instead of looking at the micro things that you do that relate to courage.

Yes.

And so when I went to Renaissance weekend, and I met these extraordinary people. Extraordinary. And, and I'll give you a great example. I met an astronaut there, and he was talking about walking on the moon and what it took to prepare and everything. And after I spoke to him, I said, gosh, that would be exciting, but I'm dyslexic. I could never do something like that, the learning and everything. And he said, see, CB, I'm highly dyslexic. He said, what, what are you talking about? I said, there's no way you could pass all those exams. He said, when you really want to do something, you figure out a way to do it. And I thought to myself, how did I get through grad school being dyslexic? I figured out a way. Now that's courage.

Yes.

Those kinds of acts of courage we need to applaud and recognize that we do every single day.

Yeah, that's true, because it gives those little— those little micro courages will give you more courage for the other ones as they go on, won't they?

Exactly. But here's what happened. I met all these people and I thought— I said to my mentor, I have to stop, I need these stories in my book. And he said, no, don't stop.

The book is never gonna end. And maybe adding one too.

So then you have the courage not to fall into the imposter syndrome and get your book out. That's it.

That's it. Because the book's never— it's like, it's like if you keep waiting for the book to be perfect, you'll never finish it. And back to that comment, the book that's published is better than the one that isn't. So that's—

Exactly. I love that. I love that phrase. I'm going to pin that on my wall. So now tell me about your rise to being with CNN. That is an amazing feat. And also, I want to know, as a woman, how did you feel with that track of being in that company? How were you treated? Did you have to use a lot of courage? What— tell us.

You know what, actually, this is of course pre-Harvey Weinstein time, so #MeToo wasn't, wasn't a thing when I started. in TV news. And quick background, when I mentioned I was from a small town in Indiana, one of the first areas of development I had to work on was I had a really, really strong country accent. So from all my friends and peers and just growing up in rural America, I spoke— for example, the nation's capital that I reported from, the way we'd say it with the dialect in my town of Farmland, Indiana— is the name of the town, not just the descriptor. It was Washington. So Washington, W-O-R-S-H-I-N-T. We do that, we put the washing in the washing machine. I mean, that's, that's— and I'm not making fun.

Yes.

That is the dialect. And yet one of the first things I had to do as I went into college and majored in political science and journalism, as I did, is I worked on neutralizing my accent because I thought, I'm not going to— I'm still me, I still have some of the great values I learned from growing up in small town America, and those are with me to this day. But I did have to—

That's what we were just talking about. Right.

Yeah. So one, I had to make the choice to begin to craft my voice, which is work that I do now with second language English speakers all over the world in high-level positions, with people who are not accustomed to the sound of their voice projecting. I do a lot of voice work with my, with my coaching clients. I work on the strategy, the structure, and the delivery components a lot is what I do now in corporate land. But as I was starting out in journalism land, my dad died when I was a kid. My mom was a university instructor. I didn't have a journalism path through relations. And so I graduated with my degree. I moved to Washington, DC. That was the nation's capital, which for me was the pinnacle of all news reporting. I liked politics and I wanted to be where the action was and local news was national news. And anyway, but it was a time where women were '90s, so we're kind of cookie-cutter look, the, the big shoulder-padded jackets. That's the '90s. But yet there was also— but there was also a bit of— most of the women who were reporters were attractive, were, um, there was a lot of competition And I will say that the first time I got a job at a television station, and through various reasons, I was the news director's assistant. So, you know, you take the first job you can get, right? Yeah. And so, or I'm ordering pens and reporters' notebooks and I'm— Yeah, you know, you start. Yes. Well, at one point, the female news director who had hired me, who was terrific, she was moved from the local Washington affiliate to the Fox News Network. It was when Fox News was launching, and this was a Fox O&O where I started— owned and operated— where I started. The new guy who came in, CB, from— I forget what his background was, but I was the news director's assistant. I wanted to be— oh no, I had started writing at that point overnights, and I still wanted to get known as someone who'd wanted to aspire to be a reporter. So here's the story. I made a little reporter's reel, pretend stories, but I actually wrote them, and then I go through photographer, videographer, and shoot stand up so you could hear my voice and all this kind of thing, because I was determined to not have to go to a small, small market and work my way back up to the Washington market if I could. So I thought, I'm going to be a very grown-up girl. I'm like 23, 24 years old, and I'm going to have— make an appointment with the new secretary to the news director, and I'm going to go to lunch and hand over my, my, my tape. It was beta tapes at this point. We're not doing digital. And I'm at lunch, and he agreed to have the lunch. We're at a regular restaurant. And CB, I put that— that I'll never forget. I had the cassette like this to slide over across the table. He put his hand on my hand, and I said, I really want to be a reporter. Put his hand on my hand. He says, you know I'm not faithful to my wife. That's exactly the word.

Get out.

Like that. What? And Well, you know what, it was— and I didn't know what to do. I didn't know how to process. You're questioning your ears. Are you hearing that properly? What is he indicating? My hand's still under his hand. What am I gonna do? And just as it happened, the waitress came over and wanted to take our order, so the hands went away, and it was like as if the incident never happened. And then you start to question yourself. Did I hear that? Did that really happen? What was— what was So long story short, in CNN I never had any kind of sexual harassment at that station owned and operated by Rupert Murdoch. And ultimately he— ultimately this guy got fired because he did this type of thing to many of the other up-and-coming young women who aspired. Wasn't a Matt Lauer type of situation, but it was definitely a situation where he was targeting the young 20-something women who were hoping to do something different besides the current role they were in. And then a friend of Rupert Murdoch came in, and this guy was just appalling, and he ultimately got fired as well. And at one point, I had the— I had the female head anchor had seen some of the things that this other guy had— he had treated me in particular because he, he called me into the editorial room where they were having the newsroom meeting about what was going to be on for the day, and Had me and brought me in, and in his Australian accent, because he was Australian, he said— I can't do it— but he said, Gina, get up on that table and show them your gam. She's got a great pair of legs, guys. I mean, just, just weird stuff. And just—

What did you do with that one?

Just on the cusp of being a joke where you don't know what to do. Nobody said anything. It was very uncomfortable. Nobody admonished him because we're still in those early pre- Harvey Weinstein days where people know it's not right, but they don't know what to say. They don't want to make an issue of it. I just walked out of there again. And then I had the, the female anchor I mentioned, her attorney called me and said, Gina, there's been enough stories. If you wanted, we could sue him. You could get a settlement. You will never work in news. Be aware of that. But we could do it. What do you want to do? And I'm like, I, I, I'm 23 or 22 years old. I haven't even started. So I stayed. Luckily, he was such a jerk that he made similar comments to the general manager of the New York station, who, by the way, was a woman, and she had the clout to say, uh-uh. And he was shipped back to Australia in no time flat. So there were definitely little similar stories, other stories like that, but it was a tough time. When I was finally made freelance writer and then a reporter with CNN, there were some inconsistencies in, and it was certainly very competitive market where you really didn't complain because if you were gonna complain about anything, long hours, no vacation time, things that we talk about corporate culture in our world of coaching and things today that I'm really proud of and, and diversity, equity, inclusion, and women in leadership and these types of things that I'm really passionate about now. I'd never heard about those things in TV land. And if you even complained about no holiday, they'd say— not gender-specific, they'd say to anybody, they're like, look, there's a line of people who's around the block that would do what you're doing for less.

Right.

So that's the competitive environment that was there. And there was only one time at CNN where I was being moved, because you could— they could move your contract. I was moved, being moved from Atlanta to DC or to Denver. And I didn't really want to go to Denver, but it's in my contract that they can move you wherever they want. And we're gonna do this new environmental opening and okay, fine. And I had another colleague who was male who was also being moved to start up the Seattle bureau at that point.

Mm-hmm.

And I learned from him, here's what your relocation package looks like. My relocation package was nothing like his. So I said to my agent, hey, I know that. Joe was getting this, this, and this. And he says, really? Do you want me to take that up with him? Said, yeah, I just leased a car because my former car had been stolen from the parking lot at CNN. That's another story. But so if you're gonna let Joe be able to have his car shipped and not eat up the miles, I want the same thing. Anyway, long story short, on all these sort of, you know, disparities. I did get my car shipped along with everything else, and I was also labeled a big troublemaker for a nicer version of what I was called. So it's, it was, you know, it's tough. And I think so the responsibility on leaders to be coaching leaders and be encouraging leaders and to help people have a vision for where they can take their, their careers in an encouraging way, in an aspirational way, it means a lot to me. Because there were those that afforded it for me and encouraged me, and there were plenty of those who set up barriers and were snarky and were darn right not okay. And I think that's the type of legacy in the people that I work with now are those who have a heart. What do they have in common? They want to be purposeful, positive leaders who are role modeling the behavior that's to encourage and support others.

You know what occurs to me as I listen to you is the Black Lives struggle.

Mm-hmm.

You know, we, as a person of color, we tend to think about the discrimination, the negative treatments, the difficulty in rising to the top. as being focused on the color of your skin, number one, your religion, your sexual orientation. But the crossover— I should say not but— and the crossover between all of the peoples that have gone through what you've just described, whether it be a person of color, religion, etc. It's all the same.

Yeah, not respecting other people.

It's more than not respecting other people.

And belittling.

Not recognizing that people are people. And it occurs to me that we— each group fight the battle as a group, and what would it look like if we fought this battle as one?

Yeah, well, that's—

I mean, yeah, I agree, because human things that you experienced coming up in the news world, I experienced as a Black woman. Not the woman part, but being Black. But I was treated Exactly the same.

You know, I hear you, CB, and you've told me some of the stories of that you went through. And, you know, it— I hope— I mean, I know there's some tendencies for nationalism, some tendencies for the other and pitting people against each other, not just in the United States but around the world where I'm— a lot of the client work that I do now and being based in Ireland, it's— there's no utopia. But I do find that in some corporations, there at least is appearing, in my experience anyway, more of a commitment to true corporate social responsibility, to true diversity, equity, inclusion programs, not just to tick boxes, but to really begin to change the way that companies are interacting and that leaders are being required to be more transparent, Not just with how they perform, but also how they contribute, the donations, the fundraisers, the disparity between their income and the new hires' incomes.

And I hope—

I think we saw a lot of that come through in the caring that was provided for employees during lockdown and work from home and the mental health that was required to provide for them and the self-care and support. And Elon Musk's comment a few weeks ago where he said, well, everybody's going to come back in the office now, or you— I could take this as your termination. I think that that might have been expressed, and other CEOs might have thought the same thing but were afraid to say it, in a minority. Now, I, I think, at least what I'm seeing, that appears that there are more and more leaders of conscience, leaders of, of corporate care And maybe that's because only the companies that are hiring me are actually putting that forward. And we still— I'm sure we still have a long way to go, but I hope that the conversations are better. I hope that the changes like the MeToo— I hope that the awful overruling by the Supreme Court on Roe v. Wade shows us just how far things can go if we don't guard things. I hope that— that I really do hope that somehow that Sadly, 3 weeks now of that decision being made, that the chaos that, that is ensuing gets enough people rallied together regardless of where they might be on other issues to come together and say we need to have more conversations, not fewer, that unite us.

Like you were saying, I so agree with you. I mean, that Roe versus Wade thing, I think it just slipped under the rocks. Nobody saw it coming, right? Or few saw it coming. And then all of a sudden it was there and we thought, what happened? How did we go backwards? It's done that to me.

Well, it was the fear every time that former President Trump put in another one of those justices. And yet the actual imagination of that precedent after 50 years being overturned Versus, oh my gosh, here's a leaked, a leaked opinion in May, and now it's at the end of June and it's real.

Exactly, exactly.

That I think was a— that's a clarion call. And all the different ripple effects now that's coming out.

Unbelievable. I mean, but the other thing I wanted to say to you is I'm not sure that I agree with you that there has been organizational change with the pandemics, plural, that we have gone through. And I'm not just talking about COVID I'm talking about social justice, mental health, etc.

Okay.

I think that there is— there has been an increase in awareness, in execution, not so much.

Okay.

I also think that the awareness— and it's a horrible thing that I'm going to say, but it's like a woman being pregnant. You forget the pain after the birth. And I think that that is exactly what we're seeing. It's scary. I've seen— I've been around long enough to see it before. Everybody rallies to Cause while it's on the front page, but once it moves to the back page or off, yeah, it's gone. It's gone.

Well, that's the concern. Look, I mean, I hear you. I remember, gosh, May or June of 2020 when it was really the height, first lockdown, and I interviewed Alan Murray, the CEO of the Fortune magazine group, because he had written in his weekly newsletter, which I subscribed to, about how In his words, companies— and he had the statistics that backed it up— were putting more resources toward the support and the care and the home offices and the big multinationals in general. But his caution— and maybe this is where you're picking up, and, and I tend to be sure that I share the concern, of course— his caution or his concern was, is this a PR move? How lasting will it be when things begin to go back to something normal, which we've adjusted, and now we're in this hybrid or whatever we're in. And then you hear what, 3, 4 weeks ago when Elon Musk said everybody's back in the office, blah, blah, and the torrent that that drew. Is that, to your point, what others are wanting and are saying? And is it going to quietly slip back into that realm tacitly? I hope not. I mean, I just had a great wrap-up session with a group of women I was working with around the world for the Women's Health Organization, Organon. They started this virtual women's leadership series back in 2020. Now they're still going strong with new cohorts. They haven't pulled the investment commitment on it yet, but hopefully some companies are. But you're right, it doesn't mean we should be complacent and expect that it's going to be continuing.

There's so many disparate groups that nothing is moving. I applaud this group that you spoke to. But here, here's what's happening.

Yeah.

It's the chain that has too many broken links. And let me give you a really good example. Right after the killing of Floyd— well, not right after, what, maybe a year or so— we have the Super Bowl.

Yeah.

And on the Super Bowl was the Jeep commercial. The Jeep commercial that I just gagged when I saw it. What it was is they had Bruce Springsteen talking about the coming together of America, and they showed farmland, you know, the cowboys, the this, the that, the great cars. There was not one person of color.

Are you serious? See, I, I didn't watch the Super Bowl that year. I was in— I was in— I didn't— I wouldn't I was unaware of the Super Bowl. That's awful.

Okay, so we're talking about— I'm sure if you go to the CEO of GE, oh yeah, we're definitely for DEI, etc., etc. When it got to your ad age, had we missed advertising agency? Not so much. And who was the keeper of that?

Well, that's it, the consistency of the care. And okay, here's a question for you then, because Let's— that happened. What was the response when it was pointed out? How did, how did the CEO of Jeep— because I don't know, I don't know this story, I confess.

Pointed out. However, however, they pulled the commercial. The reason that they gave pulling the commercial, if I remember correctly, was Bruce Springsteen was caught drunk driving, so we can't have him Representing Jeep commercials.

Oh, so there was no— it was noted about the lack of diversity on that?

No.

Well, look, no question we have not arrived for women, people of color, for, for the LGBTQ+ community. I mean, we have not arrived. And that's why, you know, and that's why conversations like this— what I love about Virtual connections and technology, as it is helping us stay connected. We're hearing stories from people from other parts of the world that we wouldn't hear otherwise. News is traveling faster, or, or citizen journalism is traveling faster. And, and I, I think, I think the conversations are continuing. I have great hope for my, my daughter who's 14, her generation. I'm no, I'm no utopia Pollyanna, as I mentioned. But I do think that incrementally things are changing. Now, do we have a long way to go?

Yes.

But how— and are we taking backward steps like with Roe v. Wade and the Supreme Court's decision on guns and climate in the last month? Yes. But gosh, I do think that people like you, hopefully like me, we're still out there trying to do the ripple effect. Trying to keep that, that power for good, trying to keep having conversations and stories and coaching around be courageous and, and lean into being a positive force for change. I hope.

Hope springs eternal. We just need to make sure that it's more in the now than Oh, it's about, it's about progression, not perfection. I will say that the awareness factor, especially with social media, has extended the memory. And, uh, my hope is that the memory does not have a broken link in it, right? So that we can continue to keep these important subjects in communication. Yeah. And reaching towards solution. So the great news is we have social media on our side now. The bad news is we have social media on our side now.

I know. And that's— and you know, that's, that's something because One of the— one of a friend of mine was disparaging social media and how much negativity and trolling and all the different things and misinformation and disinformation that's out there. And I said, yes, and I can also reach out to CB through LinkedIn that I never would have been able to have even had an opportunity to meet otherwise.

Exactly.

You never know. You can still plant seeds of positivity. It takes effort, but boy, it's sure a lot better to be planting a seed with you than being out on my own. Looking around and not having that connection.

Hey, Gina, we've got about 10 minutes left. Tell us what you're up to now. 2 things. Tell us— well, no, I'm not going to ask you that. I think we answered it. I was going to say to you, what was the most courageous thing that you've ever done? And I think it's staying in the journalism field.

Okay, so it's funny. Yeah, well, I mean, like, I think the most courageous thing that I've done is what I'm doing now, which is I, I don't live in the United States full-time anymore. I mean, I didn't make that decision specifically because of, of Trump being elected. It just happened to be in 2015. But I moved to Ireland full-time, and I did launch and register and have my own company now that I do write a column, as you mentioned, in the business section of the largest circulated newspaper where I had the privilege of writing about you and, and others. But I have my own company now that I use as my umbrella to coach, speak, and train under. And, you know, that has— as yourself, female entrepreneurship in another country, in Europe, is— I look behind my shoulder and go, oh wow, we're doing it! That's exciting. And we're serving people and helping people, and we're making a go of it. And I'm a single mom raising my daughter here in Ireland, and I, I think for me what I'm excited about is I love through virtual the ability to connect with people. Today I spoke with a client in Singapore, another client in, in Philadelphia, team of women from Latin America and Mexico, Puerto Rico and Brazil and the US, and, and it's incredible when you get to bring people from all over the world together who do share a purpose about wanting to be positive communicators. And so that has been something that continues to fulfill me and keep me with that sense of purpose about helping others feel more confident and comfortable about how they connect.

Well, what I love is the fact that I met you on LinkedIn. We've never met in person. You've interviewed me. You've connected me to an amazing person, Rahul. And, you know, I've connected you to people. So this connection that we've never met, and yet we're introducing and doing business with people that we've connected to each other. So this ability to connect is beyond parallel.

Yeah.

You know, you, you have a system that allows you to understand what's going on in other parts of the world other people that you would have never met before. You don't live on my block, across the street, not even in the state.

I used to live in Colorado, but I don't anymore. I mean, that's it exactly. And you can find connections through story, the common bonds of the work that you do or the journeys that lead you to where you are today and the stories of your personal life and the stories of your childhood or the stories of your— how you got your name, or I mean, it— those types of things stay with us more than just CV or resume information. And it's the same type of thing about—

Oh my God, I love those days.

You know, how can we— how do we keep together? It's the power of story, and connections are made based on our stories that we tell to each other that make people feel compassionate or warm or caring about us.

Well, Gina, I want to be part of your launch team. I want you to be part of my launch team. And tell us quickly, we've got a few minutes left, what is it that you want our listeners to know?

Okay, I want everybody out there to know that no matter where you come from, what part of the world— I've lived in farmland Indiana where I grew up, I've been working Nigeria and, and, and all over Europe and down to South Africa and over to Costa Rica. Wherever you're from, if you build your network, tell your story about your dream, get mentors, get sponsors, I really do believe that that power of connection, that power of relationship, communicating about your story and dream, that you can get there so much faster than if you're just going to keep it to yourself and hope that someone's going to discover you. So don't hide your light under a bushel. Know that you're not alone. Know that other people are there caring for you and can help give you the tools, the skills, the capabilities around communicating your story to others to achieve your dream.

I love that message, and I will add to that, learn to say thank you.

Yeah.

Because even those people who are mentoring you, supporting you, you think of them as higher than you. We thrive on appreciation, and it just helps us pass that along to other people. Now, Gina, you, you have interviewed me. What are— who are the types of people you like to interview and how do they reach you?

Oh, fantastic. I love— really, I, gosh, I've interviewed, I don't know, the, the head of DE&I for Sanofi, the French-based big multinational pharma company.

Why?

Because he had a great story. He started out as— he was raised in, in Zaire, ended up going over to South Africa and was a police officer, moved to London, was a police officer for 20 years.

Get out.

Built the, the African, the, or the, the Black Association of Police Officers in, in the UK decided he's going to take that to DE&I in Sanofi. I, I've interviewed, gosh, people who have a story of impact.

I want to meet him. I want to interview him. That's a great current story.

Fantastic person. I would happily connect you. With him. But that's it. I would— I love to interview people who have learned a lesson along the way, want to share it with others. The story— the column is called The Communicator, but it really is about anyone who's overcome an obstacle. There's so many lessons you can take from your own life and apply it in a business setting again, because what do they all have in common? It's people. How to be encouraging, how to be more confident, how to have courage. How to do the right thing when others aren't, how your journey will help someone else. It's, it's as simple as that. I've been writing a column now for 4 years. The tyranny of the column.

So how can people subscribe to your column?

You can, you can— great question. You can find the column simply on the Sunday Independent website, which is the, the newspaper here in Ireland. Like I said, it's the largest circulated newspaper in Ireland. Back to our original opening conversation, people still read in Ireland digitally and online. The circulation is almost a million for a country that has 5 million. That's 1 in 5 people buying that paper or finding that online. And, and then you can find me on Instagram, you can find me on, on LinkedIn like you and I found each other. And really my hope is just to help any human being feel more confident and more comfortable about how they connect with others and themselves. Because the first person we talk to in the morning and the last person we talk to at night is ourselves. And our self-talk can be more managed, more positive. And a lot of people forget we need to start there.

Oh yeah, absolutely. And so I will say Gina has a pat Schedule. So don't expect for her to return your calls right away, but I will tell you from experience, she does return the calls, and you're so— you, you're just so lucky that she does. Well, you're like—

you're very kind. I have a lovely, lovely assistant, so you can find her at julia@ginalondon.com, and, and my chief of staff will help coordinate my schedule.

Good, good. Well, I'm glad that we know how to reach you. And by the way, I have to go through the same mechanism to reach her. It's— she's just busy. She's busy helping the world, which is good stuff, right? Tina, we got you to blush.

True.

Thank you so much for coming on the show. I, I do want to have you back. I want to talk about some of the people that you're interviewing They sound phenomenal. Introduce me to everybody who you think has a great courage story, because as you know, my book is about courage.

Fantastic. I look forward to reading it and being a part of that launch.

Absolutely. Hey guys, listen, next week we also have an amazing guest. You know what, I'm going to start telling you, maybe starting next week, who our guests are for the next week. So you can prepare your questions and send them in. And by the way, I just found out that this streaming, which we also take the same show and we put it on your favorite podcast, is in the top 10% of the world for podcasts. So yay! Congratulations to you all. Keep it coming, and I'll miss you till next time. Bye. Week. Bye now.