CB LIVE! Courage to Leap & Lead with Guest Chris Drury, Episode 97

Hello everybody, it's Tuesday, so it's your favorite— I'm gonna call myself a personality— it's your favorite personality, CB Bowman. And you know I love to have fun and learn, so today I have an extremely special person on. To talk to you. I'm making her turn red. Good, because she has done that back to me. And yes, a Black woman can turn red. No. So today it's CB Live, and it is the courage to leap and lead. And so I just have to tell you about this woman. I met Chris through somebody else, another woman when I was looking for people to sit on my board for workplace racial equality and equity. Okay, and so this woman bounces into my life, and I thought, okay, she's funny, she's smart, okay, what can she bring, right? Well, she brought it. All right, she is like one of the greatest quick thinkers I've ever met, right? She's like a walking encyclopedia of trigger questions to make you think about what you said, what you think you're gonna say, and what you might have said, if that makes sense, right? So I thought, who is this woman who challenges me like this? Let me think about this. Do I like it? Yeah, I'm not so sure. Let me see what else she's got. And she is able to back it up. And you know what I mean? There's some people that just want to challenge you just for the sake of challenging you, to try to kind of make you feel stupid. Not this woman. She challenges you to make you be on your A-game. So recently— so I'm gonna share this story— I contacted her and I said, Chris, I don't— I mean, I've done like 90-something podcasts and I don't see my audience increasing like some other people. And she said, have you listened to what other people are doing? Shut me down. I said no. And she said, well, that might be a good idea to look at your competition. And I thought, what? How did I miss that one? I'm a marketing person. I love analyzing my competition. But you know, every once in a while you get to be a smarty pants and you think you know it all. And she called me on my game. So I have to now listen to other podcasts, but that'll be after I complete my book, which by the way is 3/4 of the way done. How about that? Drop the mic. So without further ado, I want to introduce my dear friend who is an amazing volunteer person. And when she— by the way, when she volunteers, she's all in. It's no dilly-dallying. I'll miss this meeting. Oh, I have that meeting. I can't attend this. She is all in and really attentive to where you're going. And I'll tell you one other thing about this woman. She's one of the few women that I've met that has the soul of others. What do I mean by that? She really cares About people in general, she cares about life and how life is treating people, and that is so rare to see. She is the epitome of what Dr. Mangesi taught us: umbuto. When people greet each other, they say, "I see." You, meaning she doesn't see the outside, she sees the inside out. So when Chris talks to you, he is seeing the true you and your goals and where you want to go and how can you get there, right, that you haven't even thought about. This is Chris Dory.

Chris, hello. So much for makeup this morning.

Well, I had to get you back.

Thank you. Those were the sweetest things. Thank you so much for saying that.

All true. All very true. You know, nice people.

That's so kind, thank you.

Chris, tell us about how you started in the world.

I started in the world?

Let's start with your parents, tell us about them.

So, um, my mom raised me, um, she's from Germany, so almost all of my family live in Germany.

Ah, the tip stuck, okay, we got it now. Get it done. Just do it. Okay.

Yeah, I, you know, I'm not punctual, but I am very, very like— I am a project manager at heart. That's how I run my life, basically. Drives my husband crazy, um, because I look at where I'm going and how we're gonna get there, and he just looks at the most immediate thing. Um, so that's how I've run my life. I had, I had 2 brothers. One of the most profound moments of my life was when my youngest brother committed suicide in high school. So it's, you know, a lot of the things that are happening to teenagers today about mental health and wellness and isolation is very dear to my heart. And the impact of social media on that is very, very important to me. And I've been volunteering with teenagers for, you know, decades. So his, his existence in my life and nonexistence in my life is very profound in all of my decision-making.

Do you know why he just took that decision?

You know, I think, you know, it's what's really truly sad is And this might be triggering for some people, is that teenagers in particular, you know, they lack impulse control in some ways. And what seems, you know, what is possibly a momentary blip seems catastrophic. And the— and not being able to see the 360 of any decisions you make. is, you know, part of what being a teenager is. That's how you grow. And I think that there's also obviously social isolation, which existed long before COVID and bullying and mental health challenges. Those are all things that contributed to, I'm sure. But, you know, it's one of those things where you'll never know, really. And I've always said that, you know, in some ways I felt that suicide was a— his suicide was a a terminal illness that at some point it was going to get him. It just got him earlier than I wanted or hoped it would. But I think now there's so much investment, not enough financially in our, in our healthcare system, but there's so much more investment in supporting people who are struggling. So I have a lot of empathy for, for for teenagers who are going through a really difficult time right now, and anyone who's going through a difficult time. And I recognize and respect the frustrations that family members feel.

So, um, you know, you bring up really difficult and challenging points. I had a cousin who committed suicide when he went to college, and he was from a very intense, intensely productive professionally family. I mean, each of the children were incredibly accomplished doctors, lawyers, you name it. And I also worked with a group when I lived in New York, an association that specialized in Teen Suicide, and I was on the board. And when you said it like you did, it actually became much clearer to me that your teenage years of going through learning decision-making, learning that there is a next step, is just not emphasized enough.

Mm-hmm.

And it only takes It only takes a second in time for those who will survive and those who won't.

Mm-hmm.

And it, you know, with somebody like that, the suicide could have failed and he could have gone on. Same time, there are people who think about it, and they have something in their life that triggers them to say, not me, not now. And I so wish that we could discover what that is, because so many lives can be saved.

Yeah, um, I think, I think that it's really hard to know what, what what happens in that moment. But I do think that, um, especially if you're a teenager, uh, it just does— it does— every— everything seems so much more—

Bigger than it is. Overwhelming.

Which college you go to, are you going to the prom, do you have a girlfriend, and do you have a boyfriend? You know, those things are just so monumentally important. And, you know, the reality is, when I look back on high school, I don't even think about any of those things today, but they were really important to me then. So I imagine that if you are vulnerable, and I think this is true for both, for everyone who's a teenager, is that it is easy to feel isolated regardless of how popular you are or how smart you are or how good your family is. And in some ways, how good your family is in terms of supporting you and their success makes it— may even make it worse, and that you feel like you're letting them down.

And that's a good point.

I think, yeah. And I think that it is an epidemic. It truly is. I think we're in a great place today because now we talk about this. Decades ago, it was a secret that you didn't talk about. And today we, we do talk about it. And, you know, there's a lot of discussion about, is the fact that we talk about these mental health issues and the mortality rate— that actually the number one cause of death among teenagers and people in the US is suicide by gun— is, does it actually make it worse? I don't know.

Yeah. I know what you're saying. Is it talking about it make it seem like it's okay?

Yeah. Is it giving the permission for that?

Yeah. Um, versus— I think that I'm not a parent by birth, but it occurs to me that talking about it in a way that says it's not really talking about suicide, but it's talking having the relationship with your child that allows for deep, deep discussion, and so that perhaps a parent can see where you're disturbed, you know.

Yeah.

And I think that the concept of— and this is not tooting my own horn now about courage, but I think Really, courage should be taught in school.

Yeah, I think that— I think I take it a step further. I agree with you. I think that it's not even about parents. It's about a community as a whole. Your friends, your family, your coworkers, your colleagues, your teachers, anybody who's in your life should have— should view the world from a point of empathy. And I think that's very much foundational to who I am, is that I try and look at things from other people's perspective. And perhaps I'm too far on the empathy scale, but— No, we need it. But I do think that we need to develop these skills because the whole notion of courage and empathy go together because you have to be willing to be vulnerable for other people. And I think that's the greatest gift that you can give is your generosity of feeling and time. And it's easy to be overwhelmed by everything that's happening in the world and miss cues that people are really struggling.

Yeah, that's, that's, those are the operative words, which is What are the clues? We don't know how to recognize them. The other thing I think we're missing, in my opinion, is tough love. Because it seems like there are so many people, so many parents, and I'm talking about parents now, that just pour on the money, pour on the yes, you can, pour this and that. And tough love for me is part of courage, right? And I'm not talking about macro courage, I'm talking about micro courage, um, to know when to say, listen, you've got this. I'll be here if you fall, but you've got this. I remember a funny that when I was growing up, there was a play on Broadway about teenage— about adults returning home to their parents. And it was very in vogue then. So I called my mom up and I said, hey, Mom, it's really in vogue for children to move back home, adult children. And my mom listened carefully and she said to me, don't even think about it. And I said, But, but you tell me I'd always have a place to call home. She said, in emergency. Drop the mic. My mom, my mom. Whoa, let's get it clear now. We're always here for you in emergency.

Yeah, I think, yeah, I mean, there's a whole lot to be said there about parenting. I am not a parent. But I do know that it's hard when you are in it to be able to see clearly, to be able to say, oh, my child has a substance abuse problem, I can fix it. That's very hard. And or that my child is depressed, like you think that they can just snap out of it.

Yeah.

And I think that that is the the hard part is that, you know, there's a reason why they call it codependency is that, you know, parents think, family members and friends think, well, I can fix this by, you know, pushing them harder or giving them money or paying their rent. Like, there's all kinds of things that we do to not do the hard work. And, and it's, in some cases, it's easier to write a check than to confront the underlying issues of why people are struggling, which could be any number of things that, you know, a parent may or may not be aware of, or may or may not have any responsibility for. So, you know, I think it's, it's, it's very tough. It's a very nuanced problem. And I am not a psychotherapist. I do not have experience. So I just— I am just speaking as a family member who has seen the impact of it and what that has had on my life. It is both the worst thing that's ever happened to me and the best thing that's ever happened to me because him dying at 17 made me feel like I had to live both my life and his life and make it as full as possible.

Yeah.

So I think that like that was a huge counterpoint to how, you know, I looked at the rest of my life and I was pretty young when he passed. So it, you know, this is— I empathize with other people who go through this and I certainly, you know, feel for you as well and that it's an epidemic and it's a problem that we need to really think about and the repercussions are seen in me and you and anybody else and how it changes their lives. And it's not trivial, um, and it's always a hole, but I, you know, I tried to make the best out of it for me. So—

Have you seen the new commercial that addresses this?

I don't think so.

It is very powerful. Um, it's, it's advertising a new service online which is for people to get help. And the reason why I made the face is I'm not quite sure whether it does— it makes it kind of light, or if it makes it light enough for somebody to want to take an action. That's a very thin line, right? And it talks— it shows the first clip is it shows a man lying in a gym lifting weights and, you know, lying on your back lifting weights, and a guy is standing there and says, do you want help? And the guy says, no, I've got this. And it's a series of clips like that. And at the end, you realize that they're talking about the ability to get help for depression and upset through this new service.

Mm-hmm.

And I, you know, The best thing it does is it stops and make you, make you want to hear and listen to what they have to say. And I think it's great that it's on TV now. I think it's great that more people are talking about it now. And I only wish there was more solutions.

I know, so do I.

Excuse me for coughing. The, uh, my allergies are having fun today, so I'm gonna take No worries, no worries at all.

I have a lot of allergies, so, um, it's too dry and hot here for me to feel any effects of them.

Yeah, so then tell me then, what did your mom do as a single mom?

Yeah, she really, you know, she worked really, really, really hard, really hard to support us and keep us you know, a roof over our head. And it was hard, very, very, very hard. But I think that it sort of made me feel like I had to support myself. So part of that is there's 2 sides of that coin. One is I had always wanted to be a foreign correspondent. I wanted to be the next Christiane Amanpour.

Yeah.

So I studied journalism. And then I— and part of journalism is obviously, in my case, is shining a light on things that nobody sees. So it's like the investigation part, the giving voice to the unheard. And like, that is definitely part of my story as a result of my brother's death, but also like in me now. And so I thought, I'm gonna be a foreign correspondent, I'm gonna be a journalist. And then I realized that it's very hard to pay your rent. in New York City when you make like $14,000 a year, and it's, it's very hard to plan your retirement. So eventually I had to pivot into something that was a little bit more stable, and it ended up being that I landed into digital media. And there weren't a whole lot of women in digital media at the time. There still aren't. There aren't enough of them. let alone people of color. So, I mean, we're way behind where we should be, but I started working through media and started working on more and more complex technology and just ended up ultimately moving into commerce and payments. And I have to say—

Wait, stop there.

Yeah.

Because you just hit something really important. You basically changed careers.

Um, yes.

How did you worm your way into a new career without the specific knowledge required for technology, or did you have—

Yeah, so, so I had been working, um, for a bunch of media companies in New York, and as a journalist Well, they started as a newspaper and then they started at big media conglomerates that owned like television networks and studios and magazines and newspapers and digital properties. So I moved from like a newspaper to big media conglomerates. And when I moved to these big media conglomerates, I started diversifying my portfolio of journalism and editor to more technology-related things and marketing-related things and digital marketing things. And I think there are two—

How did you do that? Did you just snoop into what others were doing?

No, it was, it was literally— I wish I could say it was purposeful. It was, it was essentially, we don't have anybody to do this. Do you know how to do this? Can you take this on? And gradually, of course, I would take on more than I was supposed to do. And then before you knew it, I had a huge portfolio. And what I was finding is that I was leaving jobs and being replaced by 3 people.

Oh, yes. Okay.

Again and again and again. So I decided that I wanted to do bigger tech, more complex technology, and the skills that it takes to be a journalist are skills that come in handy when it comes to operations as well. And the skills that come in handy are asking questions and thinking about where the story is. And like in the case of one of the companies I worked for, the story was moving off of one technology solution into another and trying to figure out why we needed to move at all and what's involved in that. And and just like the investigation part. So like that, I really love the investigation and the research and the details. And this week is the 50th anniversary of the Watergate—

Yes.

Stories and In the Washington Post, which was my favorite movie growing up. And, you know, if you read the book and you read all of their books, they go so deep in the details to understand the big picture. And I think that that is also what I brought to operations. And so over time, it was just a natural pivot into operations. I think the other thing was, and this is really critical, it doesn't seem like it at the time, but I hate being cold. I do not like to be cold. And I could not take the weather in New York anymore.

Yeah.

And I always, always, always wanted to live in California. And I had— I was working in corporate innovation. And so I had the privilege of working with Clayton Christensen's team on developing an innovation lab. And one day I said to my boss, you know, we should really have an office in California. We should, we should have an office in California.

Yeah.

And I'll volunteer to open it.

Okay, I like your guts. Okay, otherwise—

So I moved to California and, um, really started focusing on, uh, Silicon Valley and technology and, um, and taking risks in terms of like what kinds of companies I wanted to work for, what kind of people I wanted to learn from. And moving out here was like one of the single best things I ever did in my life. Um, I of course miss my friends and family back east, uh, but I also— uh, it also opened a lot of doors for me in terms of like the types of projects I could work on. And though I had worked in payments in, um, New York, I could really lean into it here in a way that I couldn't There. And now that's obviously changed quite a bit, but I'm not moving back to snow. Sorry, New Yorkers.

Hey, Chris, I want to ask you an off-the-beat question. LinkedIn. Yes, it is incredibly hard to keep up with LinkedIn. They move at warp speed.

Yeah.

Is there a group that you can join that talks about what's going on in LinkedIn and how to keep up with it and all the new algorithms that they put out?

Huh, that's an interesting question. You know, with the way some people use Facebook is how I use LinkedIn. And so I'm on it all the time. I have hundreds of alerts set up and I read it.

What does that mean?

Um, it tells me when there's a story that's been posted about, um, I don't know, like, um, currency exchanges or crypto, and it Pulls that story up for me and shares it with me in my feed.

Um, how does— so you have that set up in LinkedIn?

Yeah.

Okay, tell us how you do that.

Oh God, I set it up so long ago, I'd have to actually, actually like look and see how I did it. I think it was a follow, like I follow crypto and I follow, um, currency, and then whenever something comes up that has those hashtags, it gets surfaced to me. And also, I, you know, I have a lot of— I follow, I follow a lot of people who are not in my network. And, and by virtue of the fact that I follow them, anything that they're interested in also surfaces for me as well. So yeah, I think You know, I have friends who work at LinkedIn and, um, hey Randy, and, um, up to you. And, um, and it's a great, it's a critical tool. Like, I, I look at it multiple times a day and I do not look at other social media nearly as much as I look at this. And I think that's good because I don't have the same addiction triggers on LinkedIn that I would if I were on like Facebook or Instagram or Twitter. Not that there's anything wrong with any of those platforms. There's lots wrong. There's lots of good things too.

Well, I think that's the thing. You kind of have to find out what is your trigger in terms of which social media platform works best for you and people who you want to stay connected to.

Yeah.

And, um, I have a friend, Anna Malikian. I think you know her.

Yeah, she's awesome.

Oh my gosh, she's all about LinkedIn. And I say to her, how do you keep up? Keep up? And she goes, oh, you know, just people I follow. And I'm like, who is it that you follow? I want the details. I'm tired of being behind the game.

Well, you were ahead of the game. You were on Clubhouse early.

That wasn't through LinkedIn though. That was through MG100. But yeah, I want to know how, because I'm now a creator on LinkedIn. Yeah.

And, you know, I, it's like, there's like, there's a lot that goes into using all of these platforms that is both good and bad. And a year ago, I published um, a post about, um, I think it was email and how email is really not super useful. And I put just the right tags in, and there was no deliberate— there was no, there was no machinations in there. I just was like, these are the things that are in this post, and it had 123,000 views within like a few days. And, and I realized that I was like getting something out of seeing how many people were looking at this post and liking it and commenting on it. And I both liked it and I didn't like it because that sort of that serotonin boost kept pushing me back to the site to just keep looking at it. And I don't, I don't wanna be that way.

Yeah.

But I also, I've also found like incredible things that I never would have in a million years imagined. Like yesterday, Wieden and Kennedy, which is this really renowned marketing and advertising agency, they have been working with Nike for decades, I think. And they posted an ad on LinkedIn about Juneteenth. And I thought this, this was an ad that they probably did pro bono that I wouldn't have seen anywhere except I saw it on LinkedIn. And it was really getting to the heart of what people are already thinking about Juneteenth that isn't being articulated. Like, why do we need this holiday? And who cares if we celebrate Juneteenth? I'm not Black. Why do I need to do this? And And what it was really getting to is it's the start of a conversation that is long overdue and that we all need to recognize that this moment is really about like starting a renewal in some ways or a recalibration. And it was so perfectly done. I would never have seen that on television, probably, 'cause it wouldn't have been served to me or— your Twitter or Instagram. So I thought like that's one of the amazing things about LinkedIn is that brands put their product out there because they want you to engage with it in a different way. So that's one of the many reasons why I like it.

You're gonna have to tag me on that article and tag me on the one that you did on email. And here's, here's a mind blower for some people— not, not a mind blower A mind processing trigger. Um, my husband loves to watch Fox. It's not Fox News, it's something— it's all the political channel for Fox News.

Yeah.

Okay, so yesterday— I'm not a news junkie by any stretch of the imagination. I would go crazy trying to keep up. But I had it on because I was doing something else. Oh, I was getting ready to turn off the TV. It was late night, and there was a Black guy that was being interviewed by a white guy, and it was late. It was probably around 10 o'clock Mountain Time, and the white guy asked him, what does— and I'm giving colors so that the perspective is understood— what does he think of Juneteenth, and he said, it's sad, it's misunderstood. And I thought, what is he gonna say? It intrigued me. He said, it's really a celebration for the killing of Floyd. It's not a celebration for the end of slavery.

What?

He said because this happened because of the killing of Floyd, it was brought to our attention.

Wow, that's a very misguided person. That's a very misguided person.

He had a lot of evidence to back it up, and he went back and he talked about the days of slavery and what happened and how it Should be celebrated on its own for its own merit. I agree with that. That's just basically what he was saying, not connected with the killing of Floyd. It was because of the killing of Floyd that the end of slavery, uh, was called to our attention by a day, by allocating a day celebration for it. But why couldn't we have had the celebration separate? from such a tragedy, and because it's 2 different tragedies, it's 2 different things, right?

Yeah.

He had very interesting points of view that really gave me pause to think about it, right? And which is what you love about this country, you can so firmly believe in one thing and then somebody else comes along and says boom, and you go whoa, whoa. I never thought about that, right?

Yeah.

I'm glad that he had the courage to speak out and speak up about that perspective because I could understand it. I'm not sure where I am in it, but I can understand it.

Yeah.

So now— yes, please go, go, go.

I was just going to say that I think that that's the other aspect of my journalism desires earlier in my career is the information, the need for more information, which is why I'm also an information junkie. Like, I have— I read probably 20, 25 books a year. I follow many, many news sites. I read tons of, you know, posts on the web. I've, you know, I have like lots of like blogs that I follow. Um, so yeah, it's just a lot of information that I take in all the time. So—

Well, that doesn't even count your podcast that you wrote me you would listen to 5 before noon. I'm like, does this woman have a life? What the heck?

Yeah, I'm a multitasker.

I would say more like a triple tasker.

Okay, yes, yes.

Okay, so Chris, so you went into the media space. I want to talk about, in, in your world of volunteerism, in your world of media, in the fintech space, just your life in general, have you ever had the courage to look at something and realize that you're in the wrong path? break it down and say, hey, this is just not me and start over?

Yeah, I think there's a couple of things. There's the macro view and then there's the micro view. Essentially what operations people do is they look at the entire chain of activities. And they look at where they want to go. And I mountain bike and I ski. So the tenets of mountain biking and skiing are when you're riding your bike, you look at where you want the front of the bike to go. If you're next to a cliff and you're looking at the cliff, you're going to go down the cliff. The same is true with skiing. If you want to go around a rock, you don't look at the rock. You look where you want to go. And that's the same thing with operations. And the reality is that you're constantly looking at making sure that the path that you're taking to get to the end is the right path. But sometimes along the way you realize that's the wrong end. That's not the right direction. And so you have to pivot. I think that that's the sort of the day-to-day of operations leadership is like looking at where you want to go and how you get there. From a macro level, I think that 2019, 2020 for me was really a pivotal time. It was a pivotal time for a lot of people. And I recognized that I am a values-driven person and that I gravitate towards organizations where values are more about a community and a world rather than insular and about other things that are important than what's important to me. And I had worked at a company where the values were very, very misaligned with my own. And it was only when I was inside the company that I realized, wow, these, these values don't match mine at all. And I must be crazy to think that I don't belong here. But I really feel intrinsically that like, this is not the right place for me. It was very difficult to come to that realization because it's sort of recognizing and feeling like the external pressure of like failure, not being in the cool group, you know, all of those things that you think about from high school that are still resonant with you. Like, you want to be in the cool group. You, you know, you want to be part of like where all the the best stuff is happening. But I could see that the way the company's culture was designed was not right for me. And it took a lot for me to say, this is a bad fit and I have to leave. And I sort of felt like I did leave, but I also felt like I had to do— this is sort of latent Catholicism— is I felt like I had to do penance for, for having made this wrong choice by giving back to the community. And so I really did some work on myself to figure out, like, what was it that drove me to make a decision that was so at opposed to the way I really live my life? And how do I not make those decisions again? And, you know, it's like, it's at first I was embarrassed that I had made the decision. And then I felt a lot of pride that I actually had the courage to say, like, this is not a fit. I got to go and I'm leaving and I'm going to go do something else for my community instead. And I'm going to get the reward from seeing others succeed and enabling that. So, you know, that was, that was hard. And even my family was like, how could you quit that job? That was an amazing job. And I was like, the values were wrong. They didn't match mine, and I didn't feel good about myself.

I, I'd love to talk to you about that because I think oftentimes we second-guess our values, and we take the heat ourselves for second-guessing our values. So we say, what the hell? What? Why did I do that? And I shouldn't have done that. And Et cetera, et cetera. And my teachings is, wait, let's dissect the information that you were given that led you to believe that this was aligned with your values. So there's 2 parts. There's what were you given, and then what did you interpret?

Yeah.

And most people start at and end at, what did I interpret? And don't look at what was the data that was given to you.

Yeah, that's, that's a hun— that's 100% true. And that's exactly what I did. Like, I actually did a lot of self-reflection thinking, how did I get here? What were the forces that made me make this decision. And some of the forces were external.

Mm-hmm.

And then some of them were willful denial, I would say. Like, you want to assume the best, and you're flattered that you're part of— you're being offered this opportunity. But at the same time, there's something deep and intrinsic inside of you that doesn't feel right. And like that sixth sense is, is something telling you this is a bad fit. Um, and like, I ignored that.

Um, well, again, I have to go back to— we have to examine, did we ignore it completely, or was the story we were told— was that so good that it blindsided us, right?

Yeah, I didn't— I actually didn't feel blindsided by the story I was being told. I felt blindsided by my inability to look critically at the data that I was being given. Instead, just taking it and thinking, I can work with that.

That's easy.

You know, I can fix that. Yeah, this is what I do. I can fix that. As opposed to actually taking the data in and seeing it for what it was worth.

Yeah.

And like, that was the critical learning for me, is that you got this data and you just thought that all the reasons they wanted you to join their team were because of this innate skill that you have. But the reality is they don't want you to actually do that because they are in denial about what their own challenges were anyway. It was a very It was a very like, I got the data, but I thought the data was actually— I lied to myself a bit about what the data was telling me. And after that, every time somebody tells me something now, I'm very critical as a result.

Well, there's going into the other extreme too. But also values-based people, tend to be fixers.

Yes.

I can fix this and I could fix that. And that's part of our charm, and that's part of why people— I'm taking the leap to say our, um, um, but that's also the reason why people want to hang out around us, right? We can solve it. Well, in fact, And, and in fact, I think we become too critical of ourselves if we can't solve it, right? And I've had to learn— I've had to have the courage to learn that not all situations want to be solved.

That is 100% true.

Yeah, so you've got to figure that out first before you use your value time.

Yeah, is this a problem you really want to solve? Are you just looking for somebody to come in and pay lip service to the problem?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is it that you want to do? I remember when I was much younger, um, there was an administrative assistant who I thought was brilliant and could do a job that was more in the executive— at the executive level, and I kept pushing. And finally she came over to me and she said, I'm happy doing what I'm doing, would you just stop? And I thought, what a waste of talent. And it was not until many years later that I realized that wasn't a waste of talent. She was happy.

Yes.

What she was doing, and therefore she did it extraordinarily well. So butt out, CB. And I've learned to now ask What's your goal? Yeah, you want to go— what's— what problem do you want to solve and why?

Yes.

Simon Sinek, why is it that you want to solve this problem now? Um, so it's, you know, somebody contacted me the other day and said, I'd like to talk to one of my colleagues in the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches about how to position my new company in terms of reaching clients. And a couple of names had been given to her, and I said, the first thing to do is to figure out what's the culture of your new company. Because—

I always said that.

Yeah. Do you want to get advice on how to market your new company from people who see from different cultural eyes that are not a good fit. Yeah, we're not talking about race or religion here. We're talking about the culture of the company.

Yeah.

Um, that's going to be your true north and how you want to be represented.

This is— this could not be more true. Yeah, this is like— this is— this is probably the thing that is over the last several years which has created the most challenge inside companies is what their culture is, what they want it to be, and what it actually is. And how it manifests itself inside the values, how they manifest themselves inside of the company's culture. Like, that is probably the single thing that is really bumping up against a lot of growth inside. Like, if you look at a company like Airbnb, Brian Chesky has created a unique culture. And it is a really generous and empathetic culture. They work very hard, but he cares about the people in his company. Whereas other cultures at other companies, it's sort of like a meat grinder. Like, the turnover rate is every 18 months. Like, a certain percentage of the company leaves, and that's okay for them. But I think that I really truly believe that a company is its culture. Absolutely.

And I'm—

and I look at companies like Adobe or Airbnb or Guild Education, what their values are and how they manifest themselves within within the company speaks a lot to the leadership because they hire leaders that manifest those values.

But here's, here's an interesting question. And I just, when I was just reading Rita McGrath's book on Seeing Around Corners, she talks about Adobe and, and their star internal culture. As a consumer, I don't feel it. I don't feel that Adobe gives a damn about me as a consumer. So it's interesting.

But you're not their customer. You might not be their customer.

I thought I was in buying their products.

You, you are a customer, but not the customer. Potentially their customers might be you know, designers who want products, want to design things that are gorgeous works of art. Those may be the types of customers that they— that are like in the spectrum of customers that they are going after. Those may be the ones that they focus on. You may be, you know, the small business owner who is just a different segment of their customer.

Right.

So it's very hard to connect? Like, I think that's a challenge with a lot of companies connecting with small businesses and, and making those small businesses— certainly Facebook has that challenge as well, or Meta has that challenge as well— is that how do you make those small businesses feel valued when you have millions of them potentially?

Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. I hadn't thought about it. Really good point. I mean, when I walk into Costco, everybody listens to the show is probably sick of me hearing talking about Costco. I feel like I am their absolute target customer.

Mm-hmm.

Treated like royalty.

Yeah.

Right. Um, certainly they have customers who buy a hell of a lot more than me. They buy for a store. But myself as this little person coming in, I'm treated like a star, right? And I guess I align that to like Adobe, Apple. But you're right, I'm not Adobe's main target market.

You know who talks a lot about this is Seth Godin. And I, I had a conversation with him a couple years ago about like who, how to find your customer. And I really started to think that, yeah, he's right. Like, who's actually buying this product? Like, yes. And like, how do I, like, how much energy do I spend on acquiring a customer for this product? And what's the value to me and them?

Here's a challenge though. I may not be Adobe's customer, but my customers may be.

That's right.

And so if I am not speaking highly of Adobe, my customers are hearing that, who may be their customers. So how do you fret this? How do you figure this all out? Right?

Yeah, I think like for companies like Adobe, You know, I don't know that much about how they market to small businesses or how they think about small businesses, but I think that my guess is that they segment a lot of their small businesses in some way and that they have an understanding of how those small businesses scale out to larger businesses. I mean, this is a hugely successful company that has been around for decades and they are masterful at understanding segmentation. So my guess is that they have some understanding of which segment you're in, but misunderstanding of the reach of your business opportunity.

That's a great point. I love that. You see, audience, This is what I mean about this woman. Okay, need to— oh my God, we only have 5 minutes left. Okay, I want to ask you now about a time that you had courage to speak about an unresolved problem that was holding your work back and preventing you from being successful. I think we just answered that question.

Yeah, I think that's part of my job. Not everybody loves it though. Yeah.

Okay. And I think we also answered the— asked the last question, which is talk about a time when you had to start over using the skills that you learned from the errors that you made.

Lots of those.

You know, myself included. I, um, I suddenly, you know, so it's really interesting how When you really try to take an examination of your life and really listen to what people are saying and what people are not saying. And one of the things that I realized for me is I have to be careful of who I'm connecting with whom. That's a really good example.

Your brand.

Yeah, because I'm considered one of the connectors now. And I realized I have to be really careful about saying no to people or zipping it when I want to just reach out and help people and say, hey, I know somebody who could help you. And that, that's hard. I find that extremely hard to do.

Yeah.

Because as when I was interviewing Rita, one of the things we discussed is People who would like to get ahead and how they're stopped because they don't have the right connections. And I think about myself when I was younger. I did not know the right people to help me move forward. And so I feel like I want to right that wrong for others.

Mm-hmm.

And yet there's such a learning. I was talking to a colleague of mine and yours, and I said— and we were dissecting people that we knew together in a very polite way because we were determining where we were going to go in relationships. And one of the people that we mentioned, uh, and how we were going to help the people in our relationships, those same people.

Mm-hmm.

And so we were looking at it from the perspective of who needs help, but how can we help them? And we were saying that this particular person has come a long way, but one of the things that he needs to learn is the art of connecting.

Yeah, it's an art. It's— I mean, there's connecting, which is, you know, networking, and then there's connecting emotionally to people.

True.

And we hadn't even gotten to that part of emotional Connecting can feel transactional, and when it feels transactional, it's inauthentic, and it feels like I'm just— I'm really only reaching out to you because I want you to introduce me to this guy who's going to give me—

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And versus like, hey, I have this great idea, I'd love to get your thoughts on this, do you know of anyone who might be able to give me some input, you know, and yeah, develop a relationship as opposed to you give me something And I think that that is like where networking breaks down. And I am just like you. I love it when people ask me for help. And my biggest weakness is to help everybody who reaches out to me. So I will do it. But, you know, one of the learnings for me is help the people who, you know, the investment will go far.

That's a great statement. And I want to end the show on that. But I also want to tell the story of a new group that I belong to. And not knowing the people in the group, I happened to mention why I was in the group. And I said one of the reasons is that I wanted to get my book done, or fairly on the way by the time that I go at speak at Renaissance Weekend. And so this person said to me, well, what is that? And I explained that it was, you know, America's great think tank, um, including North America, South America, etc. And he said, oh, that sounds great. How can I get in? Will you get me in? And I thought, this is my first phone call with you. I don't even know your last name. You're asking me. And so I've had to have the courage to learn to say I can't or no. And so that falls into a whole different area.

Yeah.

Which we'll have to continue our conversation.

100%.

You and I can give some advice on that.

Yes, for sure.

Chris, I'm so excited. Tell us where your next step is going to be. What are you going to do next?

Well, I'm passionate about fintech. So, you know, I've been, I've been really thinking about how payments can help a broader segment of the community and the world. So I continue to be really involved in fintech. And, you know, that foundation of working at Visa and e-commerce really Help me look at like, how do we provide financial solutions to people who need them, especially now? So I think now is the moment I'm really investing in fintech and really like personally and intellectually, and I'm just really excited about this moment.

So for people who don't know what financial technology is, fintech, can you explain?

You know, I talk about this from the perspective of like how my mother would understand it. So I don't want this to sound insulting.

Your mom was a pretty smart woman, so maybe you want to break it down a little bit.

Yeah. So, you know, historically the industry has revolved around big banks and big institutions, and those big institutions are— they move slowly. And they're highly regulated, which is necessary. And they don't really prove— and they look at all of us as ones and zeros. So they don't differentiate between me and you. They just differentiate between your zip code and my zip code, your tax return and my tax return, which eliminates the possibility that somebody who lives in a different zip code with a different tax return is there because they don't have a credit history. And you want to allow flexibility so that more people have access to the same financial tools that are, are available at the larger institutions, but faster. And so I think of fintech as leveraging technology to provide faster financial solutions to a broader cross-section of the community. So, you know, where it might have taken you months to start up a— or a year to get a, like, a business banking account. It might take weeks with you if you work with a fintech. And, you know, it encompasses a lot of things like crypto, and like, we go on and on.

Loans. Our next show, Finance 101 in 2023.

Yes, that would be it.

Yeah, I would love that, you know. But it's interesting to end with that because I remember when I moved from New Jersey to Colorado and had to open a business account, uh, here in Colorado. It was a nightmare.

That's hard.

It was really a nightmare. And the, the— in the end, I interviewed so many banks and I wound up— the most progressive bank was Bank of America.

Wow, that's great.

It was like that, you know. Others, I had to get all this paperwork and then they questioned it and I said, what the hell? When I first opened an account in New Jersey for ACEC, there was no problem. But since all of the misuse in foreign governments of our money, um, I think that's the reason why the banks have gotten so much tighter. Not to say that Bank of America is a small potatoes, you know, yeah, bank, but somehow they have their fintech correctly aligned with— how about that?

Well done, well done.

I learned quickly.

Yes, you do. Thank you, CB.

Oh my God, it's been awesome, Chris. So out there, folks, if you know any exciting things happening in the fintech space, please reach out to Chris on LinkedIn. You know you can find her on LinkedIn, and she's brilliant, brilliant at her work. So with that, Chris, I really do— I say this to all my guests, I want you to come back, but I do want you to come back. About the financial side. So we have the 411 on cryptocurrency.

Oh God, I am not that person, but happy to talk about it.

We'll give you time to study up.

Cool. Thanks, CB.

Um, next week, I think it's the July 4th week, um, I will be in Canada Um, giving a major presentation on, uh, at Renaissance Weekend on courage, and I am super, super excited about it. The only sad point is I won't be with you, but we will be rerunning a past show, and I think it's the one where I interview Brigadier General Dr. Bernie Banks. And if you missed that one This is one kick-ass man, I am telling you. Well, I don't need to tell you that. You could tell from the title, right? So I hope you'll watch that and have a wonderful and safe— safe is the operative word— holiday weekend. It's CB. See you in 2. Bye-bye, Chris.