CB LIVE! Courage to Leap & Lead with Magdalena Mook - part 1, episode 119

You've got courage to leap, courage to lead.

Be brave and be bold. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Let it roar.

Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast, where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courageconsulting.com where you can find all of the episodes and lots of other excellent resources. That's courageconsulting.com. Now, here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman.

Hello everybody. Guess what? No, it's Tuesday. And so, CB is here to rock it out with you and talk about courage. And notice my new look, the braid and the big gobbly earrings. I'm just having fun in this holiday season. So how are you guys doing? And you'll probably see this after the holidays, and so I'm hoping you had a wonderful holiday filled with just remembering how courageous you've been during the year and what your plans are for next year. To continue your courage. And to that aspect, I have an amazing guest. You know, all of my guests are amazing. You're probably tired of me saying that. But I'm sorry, I just know amazing people, you know. So I have this lady on who I have to tell you, she, she's just wonderful. She's just wonderful. And I have so much respect for her for several reasons. One is she is so politically savvy that few women have this kind of expertise. And with that, she is a straight shooter. She speaks from her heart. Now, that's a hard combo to come into. But she owns the space. And she's been so incredibly successful in her work as CEO of ICF. Wow. What an organization, right? So I want to talk to her about— not about stuff with ICF. Gosh, you can read that forever and ever. They are just massive. But she's so kind. She doesn't tell me how teeny we are. So let's start with talking to her about how she started. Because I'll tell you, women this powerful, they don't happen overnight. We know that. So let's find out some inside secrets. to her power. With that, Magda, welcome.

Thank you so much, CB, for inviting me, and my gosh, I'm just taken by your introduction. Thank you. I'm gonna listen to it a couple of times, you know.

Magda, tell us about your childhood. How did you grow up? Where did you grow up? We hear the accent. So we know it wasn't deep Chicago, right?

Or Eastern Kentucky for that matter, right? Yeah, I was born and raised in Poland. Um, I, uh, most of my life I spent in Warsaw, which is a capital, capital city for Poland. This is where I went to middle school, high school, college, uh, and, uh, I only left Poland when I was already an adult. So my upbringing and my formative years, I'll say, happened in Poland, which was a very, very interesting time in history. Nothing that I had to do with that, but that was exactly the time when Poland became a country outside of the former Soviet block, where the Berlin Wall came down, and when Poland adopted a different system, economical and political system, from where I was growing up. So especially being a college student studying economics, mind you, was absolutely phenomenal because we've been seeing So I want to just ask you a little bit about that.

So how did you get to study economics? This may be a completely stupid question, but I'm not afraid of stupid questions. How did you get to study economics in a communist country?

Well, it's, it's a good question, and funny you should ask, because just the other day I was having this conversation with a friend of mine, because Because as you know, we all have our dreams, right? When we're growing up, being an economist was not one of the dreams, mind you. So my dream was to be archaeologist.

Oh my God, so was mine. I'm not kidding. We had something in common.

So my dream came through, I think, a fairly explainable way because my very best friend in high school, her parents were archaeologists. So throughout high school I was going— and college— I was going to digs every year, every summer. And as you can imagine, I was just so enamored with, with this. And then the father of my friend said—

Did you find anything?

Yeah, I couldn't keep it.

I think you're so interested.

Yeah, so we were doing the dig of a middle century, um, uh, great, um, city on the top of a big mountain in front of a lake. So I was, I was finding a lot of rings and weapons and things like that. So it was, it was actually really quite fascinating and seriously taught me a lot about paying attention to patterns, paying attention to signs, paying attention to why certain things are found in certain places. Did they belong there, or they were moved by nature or otherwise? So that was really fascinating. Um, but when I— when there was a decision to apply for college, the father of my friend sat me down saying like, seriously, you really want to be an archaeologist? And I was like, no. So then, then, then there was a minute of a tantrum about what I'm gonna do when I grow up. And honestly, it was my dad who said, listen, undergraduate studies, that's something that should prepare you for your, um, graduate degree. And if you study economics, you're prepared for anything and everything.

Hmm.

I'm not so sure I agreed with him then, you know.

But I liked his assumption that you were going to go to graduate school.

Yes, it was an assumption I'm gonna go to grad school.

Yeah. Okay.

So economics it was, and then straight from grad school I did get my master's degree in international relations.

Okay, how did you get from economics to international relations?

A lot of what I was studying, um, was exactly the comparison of the still very present communist system or socialist system of economics and the capitalist system. And naturally, the capitalist was nowhere to be found close of the borders of then Poland. So all the examples, all the case studies were coming from countries other than the former Soviet bloc, which sparked my interest. And in fact, my master's thesis were about banking systems in America.

Holy cow.

So it was just, I think, a genuine interest. I had always interest in international law, and then it was an interest in how things are happening in a different way in different countries. I also had a huge privilege of studying in Denmark for a while in the Copenhagen Business School, and I was a part of a cohort of students from 12 different countries, and this is where I got the huge, huge appetite for cultures. Understanding different cultures, exploring different cultures, and also finding your own space, right, in that. Because everything is great, everything is to be respected, and yet you also come from certain culture that needs to be equally respected and, and endured.

You know, it's interesting that you said that because for some reason my mind clicked back to my days in art school.

Oh.

And so I studied painting at Pratt, and I studied interior design at Parsons, and I studied this and that. And I must say to you, there was a yin and there was a yang to it. The wonderful thing is regardless of your faith, your culture, your sexual orientation, we were one. We all wanted to improve the world from an artistic perspective. The bad part is when I graduated, I then went to the New School.

Mm.

And the New School was probably the best education I've ever had in my life. And it was sort of more of the same, but it was then getting closer to reality. I don't think that I would have had the same respect for different cultures if I didn't have that experience. And it's a shame that everybody's not exposed to that.

Yeah.

Because you look through the eyes of a different pair of glasses. You look for the beauty first, and then what are the issues that need to be solved? So I could— I can thoroughly understand what you're talking about. What was your experience specifically in learning about culture differences? What surprised you the most?

Hmm, you know, the greatest surprise, I think, and that was not the immediate realization, it's more, you know, hindsight 20/20, is that we're more alike than we're different. As you said, our aspirations, our values are often seriously very, very aligned.

Mm-hmm.

It's more about the way we talk about it. It's the language we use. It's the deeper understanding of where it's coming from and how it's exemplified. Equally deep on what, you know, what may be my value, my belief, my stance, and how do I react to people who don't share it?

Yeah.

So, so I remember vividly from, from that, um, from that time when I was studying in, in Denmark. Soon after, I spent some time in Kuwait, another very interesting cultural experience. And it was, yeah, um, so it was like, okay, so I was invited by some of our Iranian friends for dinner. I didn't know, I was not exposed to Iranian food Much in Poland, and I didn't know if I'm gonna like it or not. I loved it, by the way. But but it was it was a little bit well you talking about courage. It was courage to show up and say like no matter what I'm gonna eat it and I'm gonna I'm gonna like it. It's gonna be great. And it was. But but it was like courage for of them to invite. Many of us, very international group of people, to say we want you to experience our culture through food. So many cultures, including my own Polish, breaking bread is sacred.

Yes.

So right. So so so they young. We were geez, we were in our early twenties even. So first it was them saying we open our house. Invite you, and all of us are like, oh God, let's go to McDonald's first so we're not hungry, um, or Pizza Hut, whatever it was. And, and, and having great time because they also told us the stories behind these dishes and, and the pride of bringing some spices with them from their home country. It was lovely. And it was one of those like, yeah, you need to be open to it. Because otherwise you're missing out so much.

Absolutely. And I love what you said about breaking bread because I, I think we have lost that. My husband is Italian and food is the most important thing to him, right? Like, oh my God, I have never been with anybody who wakes up in the morning and says, okay, what are we having for dinner? What are we having for lunch? And I'm like, Right. Just so different, right?

Yeah.

But, and, and I remember when I was at, um, Parsons School of Design, I had a good, good friend of mine. This was, this was eye-opening, who, uh, went to class with me, and it We, we stayed out all night and got drunk, right? One of 2 times in my life.

Maybe.

And so I didn't want to go home, which was all the way to the Bronx. And she said, well, sleep over. And I said, okay. So I wake up in the morning and I smell bacon cooking. And I said, hold it, you're from Israel, what are you doing with bacon? And she said, We don't care about that stuff in Israel. Like, what? So it's so different from being in the country to being with people who left the country and are here, and we automatically assume the things that we read in a book are what happens every day, all the time.

Yeah.

And that was so shocking to me because I thought I was being a really good friend and acknowledging That she shouldn't have bacon. 2 heads.

Yeah.

So it is really good. But I want to ask you, so you went through school and you took subjects that were mostly directed towards men.

You know, in Poland, the system— I don't even know what it looks like these days. But when, when I was still in school, starting high school, you could Pick a specialty. So, and it was between history and literature, chemistry and biology, or math and physics. I took math and physics.

I'm not surprised somehow. Were you good?

Believe me, I— that was at times it was a little hard. It was a little hard because I was good, but at first I wasn't great. I had to catch up a little bit. And I had colleagues in my class that were really good. So—

What gave you the courage to do that?

Well, you know how it is with courage. Sometimes it is like, I'm going to show you. So my brother, my 3 years older brother, was in math and physics. In the same school, I'm like, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be stepping in his footsteps, and I'm gonna go to math and physics. Biology and chemistry. Biology, yes, I always love biology. Chemistry, don't talk to me about chemistry. No, no, no, no, no. And literature and, and history. I grew up with history and literature. My parents, you know, when we were teeny tiny, they were reading us historical books to put us to sleep. So, so that was something very natural to me. So I, I guess again, hindsight 20/20, it was a little bit of a counterbalance because I was already very, very involved in history and, and literature. I just balanced it with math and physics.

So it's very clear starting young You love the challenge of life.

Ask my mother, she's gonna tell you.

Okay, so you survived going through, uh, what we typically refer to as subjects for men, right? Okay, what happened next?

So next I go to study economics.

Well, yeah, after that, what God, what happened?

So studying economics and then, and then of course international relations. So again, you know, so many things are being a bit of a serendipity, what, what meets us when we're there. And then, uh, that time, uh, I mentioned very briefly that I studied in, in Copenhagen Business School. I came back to Poland, I finished my master's degree. And, uh, that was the time that, again, the political systems and economic systems in Central and Eastern Europe were changing pretty dramatically and pretty rapidly. And that was also the time when the, um, especially U.S. Agency for International Development, USAID, was pouring quite a lot of money Into Central and Eastern Europe. It was called the technical assistance programs. So still being in college, technically finishing my degree, my master's degree, I got hired by U.S. Department of Agriculture, United States Department of Agriculture Economic Research Service.

Wow, wow.

So, so still working in Poland, uh, oh my gosh, CB. So studying in, in international—

Weren't you afraid? You were working for the U.S., you were in Poland, and forgive my telephone just went off, and in that time there was uprisings.

That was already after uprisings were a little bit earlier. That was already after that time. Um, but, but it was still interesting to, to work, you know, um, to, to work for basically the foreign government in my own country. I, I was never felt, um, afraid for my safety that way, although I was challenged. Um, sometimes.

Like what happened?

Well, so, so, uh, those, those technical assistance programs, they were, they were of course under the agreement between the Polish government and the government of the United States. They were supported by the, uh, European Union. Um, and, and yet occasionally I was, uh, I was challenged that why I am not serving my country, but the foreign country. And I said, well, actually, I am serving my country because that foreign country that I happen to work for is bringing phenomenal expertise that can be taught to the individuals in Poland, and it can sustain very significant economic development programs. in the country. So, so yeah, so that was, you know, that was fun. But the—

What challenged you? Was it your fellow students or—

Yeah, so, so my university, the Warsaw School of Economics, we were targeted in a, in a way for, for the recruitment because, because economics, international trade, good knowledge of language. So we were targeted in some way. And yeah, there were several of us who, who basically had an opportunity to apply for those open jobs, and I got one of them.

Yes, but, uh, when you say some people challenged your thinking in terms of why weren't you supporting your own country, was that challenge coming from fellow students or Government officials?

I think my students, we, we had a fairly similar mindset. We were like, rah-rah, we're this new generation, we're gonna change this country for the better. Uh, uh, pretty, you know, high, high-level thoughts and dreams, which was lovely. Um, but it— I would say there was more of people of that slightly older generation who just could not reconcile, um, how it works. And, and over the times they did, they did, they, they, I think, saw the wisdom of it. But at first it was like, aren't there enough good works, good jobs, you know?

So let me just go back a little bit. You were in Poland during the uprising. You were younger then. What was that like for you? Were you afraid?

Oh, funny you should ask that, because I had a long conversation with fellow colleague of ours, Carol Kaufman, doctor.

Oh, yes.

Carol Kaufman. We were at the big— well, not at the very beginning, but sometime in the midst of the pandemic. As you know, Carol did a lot of research on resilience. And she asked me, she said, you don't seem to be fazed by the pandemic. And I said, well, I'm fazed, all right. She says, not to the same level as I see many leaders. And she said that in her research, it was clear that previous life experiences are in fact preparing People for, for maybe being prepared for more.

Oh my gosh, of course! I have been singing that song forever.

Exactly. So she asked me, she asked me, she said, so what, what you can think of in your life that would prepare you for, for this? And I'm like, yeah, I was what, 13 when I woke up one day and there were tanks outside of my house. Literally from one night to another, there were tanks, there were soldiers with, with guns and, and sharpshooters and all this good stuff. And it was like, what? Uh, you will not believe how many young children got spanking from their parents because it happened to be Sunday. And typically on Sunday at this time in Poland, there was this program for children started at 9 o'clock in the morning. So parents would often be still sleeping and the kids would just turn the TV on and watch that program. Well, there was nothing on TV.

Wait, what program was it?

Oh, that was just a children's program.

Yeah, yeah, okay.

But, but that day there was nothing. TV was owned by the authorities. There was nothing. So many, many parents assumed that the kids just broke the TVs. You know, now we can laugh about it. But yeah, you know, for for many many months I was I was living with military on the streets, having a martial law, having having the limitations of where we could go, what we could do, who we could talk to. Even on the phone you would hear this. This call is being controlled or being monitored. So, so yeah, and and you know one may say, oh, you were only thirteen. What do you remember? Oh, I do remember. I I do. I do. And and I think that that's something that okay, if if if I went through that, if I survived that, I'm I'm good. I'm prepared for perhaps. Weathering something little different. When Carol asked me that question, you know, I was thinking about my staff, and part of my staff is young. They are wonderful, beautiful young people. They don't remember crisis. Even 9/11, they were very young. They don't remember. They never dealt with crisis.

Yes, good point. Yes.

And I was like, okay, I need to be a little bit more, um, accepting and embracing their trauma because they simply never gone through anything like that.

Yes. Yeah, no, you have— gosh, I don't know, I don't even know where I'm stumbling because You're saying exactly, exactly what I said during the crisis. I said, you know, I was in New York on 9/11. I was there when Martin Luther King was killed. Malcolm X was killed. I mean, I was there during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I was there in Cuba. And so And then growing up as a Black woman, the challenges that I faced were not very pleasant.

Oh.

And so during COVID plus the fact I'm highly introverted, so it's like, fine, we have to stay isolated with that, you know. So the flip side is it was Challenging for me to see people experiencing trauma in the way that they were because of what was happening. And I thought, I'm not sure I understand this. And so it took a lot for me to be compassionate enough to understand what they were going through.

Yeah.

Because my background seemed quite challenging to COVID, right? I mean, so you stay home.

Yeah.

The part that I thought was traumatizing was the amount of deaths.

Yes, absolutely.

Um, but, but I— and at the same time, I remember going to countries like Cuba and experiencing— and it was shocking to me— no food on the shelves, nothing on the shelves, no pharmaceuticals. Being in Beirut during the war, where you see the trucks going down the street. So I had that experience. So it was quite challenging for me to See what was— I don't want to say breaking other people, but causing extreme pause.

Yeah. Yeah.

The thing that got me was walking into Costco and seeing nothing. That was like, now we've gone a little too far. This is my store, right?

Yeah.

But it— and when I talked to friends of mine who are principals at schools for young kids, and they were saying how traumatized they were, that I felt was very confusing to me. But I have to realize that my trauma must be equal to their trauma now. I mean, right, there's no norms for them.

Exactly. And it's important, I think, for a leader, it is important to recognize it rather than— because we, we can deal with it differently. And part of the reason, um, to recognize and, and appreciate that they never experienced anything like that before.

Yeah, exactly. So what, what was your— do you remember back then, what did you do as a youngster that you felt was courageous? Youngster meaning not that you're not young now, but I'm talking age 13.

Ah, so there were certain things that we would be doing. Uh, uh, one, one was that there was like a, you know, Secret code that you would put a little pin in your jacket or or in your coat, and there was just just a little electrical piece that that that is an resistance electric piece. I don't even know the name in English, but it was it was well known that you know if you wear one of those, it means that you're against the government and.

Yeah.

So yeah, we're proudly wearing those. However, I will mention one thing that was important. And I don't mean to make, you know, martyrdom here, but a colleague from my high school, he was actually in my brother's class. He was killed. He was killed by the police. Uh, uh, and it was, it was quite a well-known thing. He was, he was part of a resistance movement with his mom and, and, you know, the, the big group of people. There was already a solidarity movement, of course, and he was part of it. So he was killed, and, and there was a funeral, our school was told not to do anything, just pretend nothing ever happened. And still young at this point, so I was maybe, what, 15? I felt so proud of the leadership of the school because they said, nah-uh, whoever wants to go to the funeral will go to the funeral. They arranged for buses for us to go as a group. We were all dressed in, you know, um, gala, uh, white shirts, you know, black, uh, pants or skirts. We all had a little bouquet of flowers, and as one, we went to that funeral. And our leaders, the director and vice Director, vice principal of school said like, "We don't care. This is important. This is important." Nobody was forced to do that. Everybody showed up. And you know, was it courage on my side? Eh, I don't know what I would have done. I don't know seriously if the school did not say. We're gonna facilitate what's important, and it's frankly historically important. So, so to this day, I will not forget that, that day.

It's sad that such a sad experience is embedded in our memory, but, and at the same time, those experiences make us so much stronger.

And as you said, you know, this is about courage. I, I can only appreciate now that they probably were risking their jobs.

Yes, of course.

I'm pretty sure they were. Yes. And they said, uh-uh, this is too important. This is something what we have to do.

To their credit. So not fast-forwarding, but I want to find out now You have studied economics, you're working for the American government inside Poland. What next?

Right. So, so as I was working for USDA for quite a while, then there was a question about, do you want to come and, you know, work for headquarters for some time? Sure. As I said, you know, I, I— well, when you're 20-something, the world is your oyster. Yeah. So, and then, and then, and then it was just kind of cliché. I met my husband and the rest was history. And 27 years later, I'm still in the United States.

It's about— I don't know whether I want to break now because I think— oh yeah, I have to break now. Oh, don't go away. More about Miss Magda when we get back. See you in a few minutes, or see you next week. I'm not sure, but we'll see you.