CB LIVE! Courage to Leap & Lead with Derek & Laura Cadrera - part 1, Episode 115

You've got courage to leap, courage to lead. Be brave and be bold.

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.

Let it roar. Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast, where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courageconsulting.com where you can find all of the episodes and lots of other excellent resources. That's courageconsulting.com. Now here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman.

Hello everybody, it's CB again. How are you? I am so excited to be here with you today. excited about this season of giving. Now, you'll probably see this show after the holidays, but the spirit will still be with us, right?

That's right.

The important spirit is recognizing your accomplishments. We often forget to do that during the holidays, and recognizing your courage. And those— the same thing applies to those people who are around you. So with that said, I have a guest that I had before, but now I have his wife. So we're gonna get the real scoop. We had an amazing conversation about this theory, shall I call it a theory of called systems thinking.

Yep.

And when I was introduced to Derrick and Laura, I thought, how does that relate to the work that I'm doing on courage? Is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? Will it help? Won't it help? And I came to this conclusion that systems thinking may help us be more courageous than what we've been in the past. And, and again, I want to be sure to define what I'm talking about in terms of courageous. I am talking about microcourage, and it's a new term. It's my term. And what it means is the courage that we have every day to reach our goals. It's not running into the building to save the child. That is Macro courage. But micro courage is even some days when you're not feeling well with a migraine or COVID and you have to get to a meeting by Zoom or in person. Well, if you have COVID, it's by Zoom.

Mm-hmm.

To get up and to have the strength to do that meeting because you know the importance of that meeting, that is courage. And we do not applaud ourselves enough for these acts of courage. And during these pandemics, plural, that we are experiencing, we need to do that because that's giving us the strength to keep going. So with that, I'm going to turn to Laura and Derrick, and I'm going to be very devilish. So you guys, how long have you been married?

So, uh, 24, 20-something years.

Long time.

27. I like how the man knows the answer to that question.

He's very good at these things. He's very—

Yeah, it used to be the woman's responsibility to be all the romantic person and to know these dates, but, um, Seeing a shift in society. That's good. And so tell us about the field that you— so you both are not only married, but you're business partners. Is that correct?

Yeah. Yep. And we're both faculty at Cornell.

Wow.

We teach together as well, which is somewhat rare.

Yeah, we co-teach our courses.

My God, I'd like to be a fly at that dinner conversation.

Conversations are fascinating. and they're deep.

Yeah.

And they're courageous about the day-to-day, what we've accomplished each day, all of us and our children. And, you know, it works well. I mean, people ask us all the time, how do you do it? Don't you get tired of each other? And, you know, the answer is it's just, it's effortless in a weird way. I think we really met, our origin story was sort of, in, you know, the academic intellectual connection around the kinds of things that he was working on and things I was working on, the connection between them. And it just— I don't know, it works.

Did you both meet at a university?

We met at Cornell. Yeah, we met as a result of a National Science Foundation grant.

Yes. I wonder how many people have met their partners at university? They're long, long-term partners at university?

Probably a fair amount.

Fair amount, I would bet. But as, as students or, or something like that. Yeah.

Colleagues. Yeah.

Okay. So your field of study is systems thinking. Yep. Tell us, what the heck does that mean?

Well, systems thinking, you know, in a nutshell, is just learning, learning a few tricks of thinking to try to make your thinking more like reality, right? So reality can be very complex, and we can miss a lot of things, and systems thinking kind of helps us capture the real situation better, whether it be, you know, working with your kids or working with your loved ones or working in a complex business environment or trying to solve a problem or trying to build a better product or service. Whatever it is, the thing you're dealing with is a system, and it's, it's by definition going to be relatively complex because we're human. Human relationships are complex. you know, buying patterns are complex. All the things we deal with on a daily basis are complex. So the question is, how do we get our thinking more in alignment with all that complexity that we live inside of, right?

The way I would sort of say it is, you're dealing with all kinds of systems in your daily life. And you are, as you're interacting with them, you're building meaning of things, you're interpreting events, And what he says, when Derek says get in line with reality, it's like see things as they are, understand the system as it is, and use that understanding of the system to better inform your decisions and understand how you're going to think something through for a better result. And that's what systems thinking really does.

So would you say that it sounds like everything that we do during the course of a day involves systems thinking or should involve systems thinking?

Yes, absolutely. It involves systems and it should involve systems thinking.

So what, what is a systems— what system is it? System or systems?

Well, system is fine, or we might be involved in lots of different systems, but no matter what you're dealing with, whether you're dealing with your— again, you— it might be in a parenting situation where you're dealing with your kids, or in your relationship with, with your husband or wife or whatever, or it could be in your job, or it could be that you're literally trying to solve a big problem or develop a new product or service. All of those things are systems. Systems is kind of a general term for a bunch of interrelated parts.

Yeah.

Okay. Okay.

Anything really is a, is a system, you know, being able to you know, make this jacket. You have to think systemically about what you're trying to build and how are you going to put all the pieces together and make them work so that people will want to buy it, or, you know, something like that.

Um, when you're thinking systemically, are you thinking about, um— I think we've come to think of it because of COVID as a disease. Uh, that we're looking at the interrelationship of those, I, I guess, viruses or, um, bacteria.

Yes.

But if we take it out now, so let's take, for example, going to pick up your mail.

Yes.

So the system would be My getting the key.

Yes, ma'am.

My opening the door and walking through it, walking to the mailbox, putting my key in the lock, turning it, opening the door, taking out the mail.

Yes.

Closing the door, turning my key to lock it, walking back home, opening the door, And hanging up the key.

Sure. Yeah, those are parts of the process, which is a process system. Yeah.

So what's the difference between a process and a system?

Oh, a process is just a system that's happening over time, right? In sequence.

In steps.

Okay. So that, for example, is a system. Now, in, in that going to the mailbox, Yep. Um, I'm thinking about the mail I'm going to get.

Yes.

Is that part of the system also?

Yeah, it could be. I mean, if there's something, for example, um, important, if there was some important thing, or if there was some problem you were having, like if people were stealing your mail or something like that. Uh, in, in our area, we don't have locks on our Mailboxes, and our mailbox is 600 feet down the driveway. So because we live more in the country, so sometimes people actually come and steal your mail, right? And if it's like a box or something, and you know, so you might want to solve that problem. So you have to think of it like a system in order to solve.

Okay, okay. I was gonna say, people are welcome to take my bills if they— if that's right.

Okay.

So suppose, for example, you have to have the courage to go for a colonoscopy like I just had to.

Yes.

What's the systems? What's— how do I think about that systemically, if I'm using the right words?

Yeah.

So that I have the courage to That's a great question.

So one of the things that we know from research and systems thinking is humans generally are not very good at the concept, the reality of delay. So we're really good when things are right in front of our face, right? And part of the reason folks don't go to colonoscopy is because it's proactive.

Yeah.

It's, you're dealing with a delay, you're dealing with some problem that will occur in the far future.

Yeah.

And if you don't deal with it proactively now by getting a checkup, then you might have a problem in the long-term future. So a lot of people don't do them. Same with breast checkups or, you know, for cancer checkups, things like that. So as a result, people tend not to do them. If you can think to yourself, well, I actually am not very good at delay, If I can compress that delay and say to myself, you know, because I'm not good at delay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna really focus here and make sure that I go to, you know, because guys typically won't go, for example, for anything, for anything to a doctor, even if they're, even if they're actually sick, right? Which is one of my problems.

Almost. Don't take it on yourself. It's all men.

The thing about it also is the way that you're thinking about the colonoscopy matters, right? What we say is you have a mental model of what that experience is going to be. Somebody who is careful to understand the system, meaning that it's preventive, that you're going to have anesthesia, so you're not going to feel pain. If you understand the reality of what the colonoscopy is, then you can think more accurately about it and not be afraid and have more courage.

Or people are going to judge you, or you're going to have your butt hanging out, you know, through the gown or whatever, you know, whatever it is that you build as a mental model that inhibits you from going. Right? There's all kinds of, there's all kinds of very, sometimes very small reasons why you don't go.

So that's interesting because, all right, so let's keep on this subject because this is a perfect example. When I had my colonoscopy last It was in New Jersey, and I had a horrific experience.

Yeah.

Because I have a strange body and my colon is twisted, like, around my spine and everything. And so I had this mental picture of the pain that I was in when I had it in New Jersey. And also because of my system, I can't tolerate the prep.

Yeah.

So now how can I use systems thinking to get me to my next colonoscopy, which I wound up delaying an extra year?

Right. Well, the first thing is perhaps to consider the possibility that the, the next time might not be like the last time. So if you just open up that possibility, right, that, that the ne— it's not, it's not a foregone conclusion that the next time you go has to be exactly like the last time.

Right.

So, what can be done prior to going that can make the next time not be as negative of an experience, right? And so, maybe you could talk to your doctor and say, you know, because of my particular body or whatever, these kinds of fears, like I have the same thing. I have sensitive teeth and I'm absolutely terrified of dentists. So, I actually went To the dentist when I was finding a new dentist.

Yes.

And I said, look, I'm terrified of dentists. And so I made an appointment before the appointment, before they touched it. And I said, I just want you to know, like, I hate this. And I don't want to hate it, but I do. And she sort of walked me through it and said, okay, well, so everything's going to be within your control.

Yeah.

You can say stop at any time. We won't, you know, we'll check in, all this kind of stuff. So she kind of like walked me through how it could be. And just that conversation made that, made that more— it changed my mental model of dentistry.

Which means if you just, if you took a moment to get more information about, you know, for example, is that last experience just a single instantiation based on something that it doesn't necessarily have to repeat, right? And so you go and you get more information, You challenge your idea that it's going to be like that every time, and you get outside data like you did from the dentist who said, you know, it doesn't have to be like this. We can change the system by which I examine your teeth, clean your teeth based on what you experience. And it's the same thing for you. It's just, you know, getting into, getting into the reality of possibilities or alternatives, I guess.

So what made your going to the dentist a terrifying experience? What was the trigger? Well, looking at triggers is part of systems thinking.

Yeah, and that's the key is, is, you know, not to get too into my teeth, but, but like when I was a kid, I jumped off the diving board and I hit these 2 bottom teeth out. As a result, they ended up being very sensitive to hot and cold and different things. And so when, when they work on those 2 teeth in particular, it really gives me a negative experience, but all the other teeth are good. Well, you know, I just thought all dental experiences are going to be negative because I had had negative experiences. But as soon as I shared this, they said, well, there's things we can do around those 2 teeth. But it really required me to challenge my mental model of a not every experience has to be this way. And B, I can actively do something that can change the experience. So it, it was really challenging my mental model.

Yeah.

That my mental model was not replicating reality. My mental model was not representing the potential reality that could be in the future.

So you said you could change What, what does that entail? Trust to the trust of the new information that you get?

Yeah, but it also, it also entails the idea that, that you can stop it. You can sort of say, I'm going to be, I'm going to have agency, I'm going to be in control, because again, I don't want to go too far into all this.

It's a good example because it's— I mean, I hate going to the dentist too. So it's a really good example of using systems thinking.

Right. And so like, I actually went to another dentist before this, the dentist I have now, and he was really rough. And he just kind of didn't— and I literally got up in the middle of an appointment and I said, I don't want to do this. Because I changed my mental model instead of All dentistry appointments are going to be negative. I said, I can make the next dentistry appointment be different. And so in the middle of that, I said, this isn't working for me. I'm, I'm, I think there's a different kind of dentistry that I can find. Yeah. And so when I changed that mental model, that gave me the agency and the, I guess, micro courage to sort of say—

To find an answer.

You know, I can find an answer to this. I don't have to just let my teeth go. I can find an answer where there is— there exists in the world a dental procedure that isn't painful.

I love that because my experience was very much the same. Yeah, my last colonoscopy, I didn't know what went wrong. I mean, I had had them before. They weren't pleasant. Yadda yadda. But when I went to see this doctor, this gastroenterologist, I told him what happened. I said, I woke up, I was in horrible, horrible pain. I said, I didn't know what happened. I was screaming. I said, I'm sure they heard me throughout the entire hospital. And he looked at me. He said, that's because they use gas. We use water. And I thought, what the heck does that mean? What kind of diff— and then I thought about the pains you get from having gas.

Yeah.

I thought, there's gotta be some reality in that.

Yeah.

But still, and he was older and he just had a very kind persona.

Yep.

And he understood my fear. And I kept saying, I don't want to do this. I don't. He said, well, CB, think about it. You don't have to do many more of them. Because in Colorado, they look at healthcare very differently. And I said, okay. And I made 2 appointments and canceled them.

Mm-hmm.

Finally, I wasn't feeling that great. And I said, you know what? I think this is mental. Yeah, you're pushing yourself to think you're not feeling good because you know you have to do this. And then you had the Awareness Month, right? Is the universe telling me something? And so finally, I had another appointment and I said, okay, you're really causing yourself to be paranoid and you don't deal with paranoia very well. So get this over with. And how can you write a book on courage if you're not gonna have the courage to do this? This is sad.

Yeah.

So I had to sit myself down and have a real talk. And then he canceled the next appointment.

That's funny.

Something happened and he had to reschedule all of his appointments. And I'm going, and I'm going, no, no, I had already psyched myself up. So finally came the day. And it's funny how the calendar starts moving real fast when you have things set up. And, and, and I I remember going into the operating room and I was watching him. He was sitting in the corner and he was playing computer games while they were preparing me. Then he puts it down. He comes up and he goes, so are you okay about this? I said, no, I'm a wreck. He said, okay, you got 2 seconds to be a wreck because you're going to be out and it's going to be over.

Yeah.

Okay. Sure enough, it was over. No pain, nothing. Everything, even the preparation, was sailed through it.

Yeah.

Holy cow. One thing I had not considered was new procedures had developed during the time that I had my last one, which was 3 years earlier, and I'm in a different state and different doctors. I walked out saying, I would do this again. To my surprise. So what part of all of that was the whole process systems thinking?

Well, it's, it's interesting because the process is system. It's a system, right? And, and systems thinking is thinking about those systems or thinking about how you're thinking about them. And so when you sort of said you psyched yourself up, that's you sort of being more systemic in the way you're thinking about it. and challenging the way you were thinking about it, the mental model you had with the new information and the possible alternatives. So, I mean, definitely, definitely, it's all about systems.

Yeah, the real crux of, of, of all of these different stories is being aware of the mental model that you're building that may or may not be a good reflection of reality.

Yes.

And so a lot of folks go through life assuming that they just are experiencing reality directly, experiencing the situation as it is. Just the question mark of, am I experiencing this the way it really is? Is there— am I missing something? Is there something else? That's the beginning of systems thinking.

Exactly.

And there's a big word for it in science called metacognition. And the research on metacognition, which just means being aware of your own thinking.

Knowing how you're thinking.

Knowing how you're thinking about something. The research shows that metacognition can increase all the things that we care about. You know, being more emotionally intelligent, being more— having more microcourage, having all these kinds of things that are part of your show and part of the kinds of things that humans care about. increasing your metacognition or your awareness of how you think is sort of part and parcel of, of that, of those benefits.

I love that. I'm gonna see if I can add that part to my book. Metacognition. Oh gosh, I'm in love with that word.

Yeah, it's a cool word.

Well, so I'm in love with the concept of microcourage, and I actually was thinking about it after your last talk, you know, If systems thinking is about challenging your mental models and bringing your understanding of reality, you know, into align— bringing your thinking into align with reality, that takes a lot of courage. Self-awareness takes courage, micro courage in the moment to challenge an assumption, to see your own bias, to, you know, just recognize these places.

That you might not be right.

Yeah. You know, I mean, That is exactly how they connect.

And in fact, you know, the point made earlier about micro versus macro, there's actually a real interesting parallel to the science of systems. There's a whole field of systems called complex adaptive systems, which isn't important that you know, but just so you know that I'm, I'm making a connection to that between what you said. And one of the things we talk about a lot is, is this, this kind of saying, which is the micro makes the macro.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

And that's true of very, very complex systems and science. And it's also true of courage, that those macro examples of courage, those are built in micro examples of courage. Because another saying that I love is the way we do everything, The way we do anything is the way we do everything.

Oh, oh my gosh. I love this.

And that's really connected to micro makes macro. So the macro actually comes out of all the little instantiations of the micro. That's how systems actually work.

I love that because then that puts a reality into this, this whole theory of systems thinking.

Exactly.