Challenges of the C-Suite: Courage to Lead with Brenda Bence, Episode 78

Hello everybody, guess what? It's CB Bowman Day. I'm proclaiming the whole day, right? Not that I'm comparing myself to MLK, but you know, we women, we've got to step up. So I'm so happy to be with you again today. Hey, my hair looks a little yucky today, so forgive me, um, but I've got the rocking earrings on. I love it. And we have a guest today that's gonna knock it out of the ballpark. Hey, guess what? Secret, it's 3 o'clock in the morning. 3 o'clock in the morning where you are?

Yes.

Oh my God, do we love her for getting up at the crack of dawn to be with us today to talk about courage and leadership? I'm so happy to bring her on board. Hey, guess what? I just found out, and I, I don't know the exact title. Thank you, darling. My husband just bought me some mints. Isn't he a good man?

Oh, very nice.

He spoils me, as he should. Okay, now I just found out that Brenda and I, true disclosure, are on the same list. Brenda, I don't know if you saw it. It came out. We made the top 200 leaders to watch in 2022 by LeaderHome. Congratulations, my friend.

Lovely. Thanks for sharing that.

Yeah, it's great to be on the same list with you.

Absolutely.

And I also have to tell you that Brenda is my sister. OMG 100. So we go back a little bit, but we— oh, um, so somebody just wrote me in a foreign language and I don't know how to pronounce their name or what they said, but I'm hoping that they will, uh, send me— it looks like they're recording us. Well, okay. It may be great. So I have a little cough today because, you know, the allergies here in Colorado, it's a little dry. You can toast bread in the air. That's how dry it is. Um, and so let's talk to Brenda. Brenda, welcome.

Thank you, CB. You are such a joy always to connect with. I remember when we first met in London. I don't know if you remember that.

I do.

And I do— you struck me then, and you struck me— you continue to strike me. You're such a lovely And a bundle of joy. So thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Well, you know what, we have in common, we are both no bullshit, go-getter type women, right?

My first 2 initials are BS.

That's right. It's great to be in the club, right? We make things happen, right? So, um, I was— oh guys, before I forget, do Don't forget to follow my newsletter on LinkedIn. The first one was about our dear friend and colleague Marshall Goldsmith, and I'm not telling you who the second one is, but it'll be out the first week in February. So go to my, um, profile and subscribe so you don't miss it, because it's gonna be another— you know my phrase— kick-ass one. So, Brenda, back to you now. Tell us, who are you? Why are you on my show at 3 o'clock in the morning?

Well, you talk about courage. My theme of life is never say never. You know, I grew up in a small town in the Midwest of the United States, and I was never going to live in big cities. I went on to live in Paris, New York, Boston, Warsaw, Taiwan, Shanghai, Bangkok, and now I live in Singapore. I was never going to go into business, CB. And then I went on to get my MBA from Harvard and went on to work as a senior executive in Fortune 100 companies. So I would never—

you motivate yourself, you say never, and then you go and do it.

I end up pretty much doing it. I was never going to be an entrepreneur, and I left my big corporate job and started running my own executive coaching and speaking business. In fact, this year is 20 years that I've done this. I know, just—

Congratulations.

And I never thought I would be a coach. I never thought I would be a speaker. I never thought I'd be a writer. I've done all those things. So I think the theme in life that I look at is never say never, because you just never know what's gonna come. And it makes life fun. So I do all those things.

My expression is never say never, baby.

I've combined my passions. This is what I love so much. I've combined my passions of leadership and branding and just helping leaders figure out how to change the way people perceive, think, and feel about them. And that is really my sweet spot. I love working in that area.

Yeah. So there are a lot of people working in that area. Tell us, why are you different? What's your secret sauce?

So what I do is I kept— so I spent 20 years working in big corporations, leading big brands like some of the most well-known name brands you can— you will know. I actually led those brands like globally or in China or wherever. And so I actually understood what it takes to build a great brand. Like, what does it take to build a great brand? And I know there's these core elements that go into that. And so when I was thinking about developing my coaching practice, I'm like, well, how do I make this different? And I thought, aha, I'll take those same elements that apply to every big big brand in the world, and I'll apply them to people. And I've spent the last 20 years doing that.

I love that because you and I actually have a similar background. I come out of General Foods.

Yeah, we talked about that when we first met.

Yeah, and then went on to be Kraft Foods. And, you know, so I've worked for the Fortune 500, and that's actually why I started the Association of Corporate Executive coaches is I found that many of the coaches out there who were coaching or attempting to coach leaders did not have a strong business background. I'll tell you, you say hello to you and you know you've been there, you've done that just from hello.

Well, it's the same with you. I think you know when people can come at it from that perspective, when leaders know you've been in their seats. The reason I got into coaching, there are many reasons, but one of them is You know the old adage, it's lonely at the top?

Oh, yes.

It's true. There's a reason for that. Who do you turn to when you're at the senior levels of organizations? You can't talk to your direct reports. You really shouldn't talk to your board. You shouldn't probably talk to your peers. Who do you talk to? That old adage really holds true and it continues to hold true.

Let's get down to nitty-gritty. Where's my pen here? All right, tell us, so what industry do you work in the most? Do you have a specific industry?

I, I have worked across 70 industries, so I really am very broad, um, but I do a lot in finance, I do a lot of insurance, I do a lot in pharmaceuticals. But honestly, I really do love— I love the enjoyment of working across a lot of industries. Yeah.

Do you see any commonalities Across the industries?

Right now, you mean, or in general?

Let's take in general, and then let's talk about in this COVID world we're living in.

Well, I think there's generalities. I mean, I think leadership is leadership. Leadership is a challenge. Leadership has beauty with it, and it has its challenges. And that's true whether you're working in telecom or finance, whatever. I don't see a lot of difference in that regard. Most of the leaders I work with, face the same challenge, similar challenges. They may take on different kind of looks, look and feel, but they're generally similar types of things.

So pre-COVID now.

Yeah.

What did you see that required the most courage for your clients to do pre-COVID?

Well, I think pre-COVID it was all about how do I become a great inspiring leader? And, you know, It comes down to the foundations, right? Am I spending time focusing on business or people? Am I spending time focusing on telling or asking? Am I spending time focusing on tasks or relationships? Am I listening? That's one of the biggest challenges of leaders, right? Am I listening enough? So there were some of these foundational, but then also, how do I make sure I'm getting my word across? How do I manage so many different stakeholders? At the higher end of organizations, there's so many stakeholders that you have to think about. Going all the way to government and press and media, and as well as the people that you lead. And so all of that was, I think, pretty normal pre-COVID. A lot of people experienced those types of challenges. Yeah.

So now I'm curious to know, what do you see after COVID?

Yeah. Right now it's around the great resignation wave. How do we retain people? How do we make sure that we hold on to, attract, and retain great talent? How do we make sure that we can deliver collaboration and a culture, build a culture of collaboration in the midst of working remotely? Supply chain challenges are causing a lot of client issues. Not just— and here's the interesting thing, CB. It's not just client issues. In terms of, you know, they can't— customers can't get what they need. It's causing operational risks. It's costing compliance risk. It's causing risks that I don't think people anticipated. So it's real. And it's also hurting the brand because customers are getting frustrated with— they can't get what they want, so they'll just go find it somewhere else. So they're actually losing brand loyalty too. So all these really juicy, meaty challenges are coming up.

I love what you're saying because, um, you know, um, my fans, my listeners, my friends out there know I'm a huge, huge Costco fan.

I mean— Costco glasses.

Middle of my name, Costco, right? And so everything that you're talking about It's hit my Costco. And, you know, there were companies out there that you thought never, never be touched by anything. Icons: Apple, Costco, right?

Yep.

What the heck can we say to leaders now? What do you say to leaders that that helps them have the courage to make decisions in these various areas? Let's start with the Great Resignation.

Yeah. Well, so the Great Resignation, I mean, look, why are people leaving? A couple of things. Number one, motivators have changed, CB.

Oh yeah.

Our values have changed. What used to be important before COVID it's not that important anymore. People are saying, you know what, my personal life, my work-life balance, my relationship with my family, I suddenly realize how really important that is. And my values have changed. My motivators have changed. But the company is not changing the response to those motivators. And so if people aren't getting what they want, well, they're just, hey, look, there's a lot of opportunity out there. I'll just go somewhere else. Another thing—

Let's stay with that for a while. The motivators have changed because I love it. I've seen it and I'm seeing it. It's interesting how most of my life I've seen this is an employer's world. It has now become the employee's world. Are we ready for the responsibility?

It's a seller's market if you think of real estate. It's a seller's market out there. People can sell their— they can go anywhere they want. And what's happening is you've got to understand what people want, what they want. We aren't asking employees enough what they want. And the other thing that's interesting, what's going to make you stay? What would make— what kind of a workplace do you want? And even when people are saying, this is what I want, and they're not getting responded to, they're out of here.

Well—

I told you what I wanted. I'm not getting it. So I'm out of here.

I have a really interesting story to tell. This happened actually yesterday. A leader that I'm working with left their position. I'm trying to not make this generic because I don't want to reveal. They left because they got a better offer. The better offer included stipulations.

Okay.

And so the person was able to resign from the other position and just needed the paperwork. The paperwork came in and it didn't have the stipulations in it.

Hmm.

They tried to work with human resources, and human resources claimed innocence. And it started to snowball. So my client called me up and said, I've got a problem. And I said, that's why I'm here. And they told me the situation. And I said, mm-hmm, what do you think you're going to do about that? And they said, ironically, I have another offer coming in.

Ah.

And I'm not sure this company Represents my values. How about that?

It's all about values. And here's what's interesting, and I love that, your example, because this goes with what I was going to say too, CB. Leadership is becoming very personal.

Oh, I love that. Yes.

I call it micro leadership. I think we have to get— leadership is very personal. So these big corporations who want to say, okay, we're going to give you this and this and this, And people say, but I don't want that. What I want is X, right? You're trying to give me Y. And somehow these big organizations have got to figure out a way to, to make it personal. How do you do that when you have 10,000, 100,000 people working for you? But that's the challenge of today. It's that micro leadership. It's getting really down to that nitty-gritty level of individuals.

I'm not going to go with micro leadership because that has bad connotations from somebody micromanaging. Right. I am going to go with intentional leadership.

I like personal leadership too.

I like personal leadership too. Well, both will work for me. And here's the other thing. You can't— and this is a perfect situation where I just said you've got to watch the delegation now. Because that delegation doesn't allow for what you just said, that personal leadership.

Well, I think personal leadership is what do you want? Personal leadership is actually asking those questions. What do you want? What do you need? What would make your job more motivating? What's the kind of experience?

The follow-through has been delegated traditionally.

Here's what's interesting though, CB, is what I'm seeing is people are starting to start People are starting to explore the idea of paying for projects instead of paying salaries.

Really?

Yes. This is a potentially new way. What's going to happen is, here's what you need to achieve in the next 3 months on your job. Do you have the resources you need to make it happen? Do you have the right environment, the right context, whatever? What do you need from us to make that happen? Okay, we're here for you. Go. Let us know if you need us. That's what I'm seeing. I mean, it's really shifting the way we're looking at compensation now, even. So, you know, maybe salaries will become a thing of the past. Maybe it will become something like you get paid for project work, and then it doesn't matter if you do it at 2 in the morning or whether you do it at 5 in the afternoon. You do it, you get it done, because that's your job, is to get it done. Now, obviously that works if you're an individual and you're delivering individual work. If you're working with a team, like a relay race or something, then that That wouldn't work as well.

I think it might work. I love this. Now let me just ask you, and where you're seeing this, first of all, is it outside of the United States or inside the United States?

Oh no, all around the world, actually.

All around the world. Are these employees on payroll handling it?

They are now. Yeah. And they still will be on payroll. It's just that the way they'll get paid is different. It's based on delivery. As opposed to, you know, well, you show up on Monday to Friday, you'll get paid. It's really interesting.

I love it. We just— Allison just wrote in. Hi, Allison. I love this concept of work. Me too. I wish it was around for me because people like me just go get it done.

Exactly. And think about the 4-day workweek, which is becoming really popular right now too. People are talking more and more of let's go to a 4-day workweek, right? Well, look, Who cares how many days a week if you get your project work done?

Love it.

Right?

I love it. Yeah. Especially if there's a bonus if I beat the time clock.

That's it. Give me an incentive to do better than that and I'll make sure I do. And I'm going to make sure I really focus. Now, obviously that works when you're delivering your part of the bargain. When you've got other people, if you're working, think of a relay race, right? You're doing it and you pass it on to someone else before the project gets done. done and that person doesn't get it done on time, now you've got a challenge. But ultimately, I think it's a really new way of thinking about work. So I'm curious to see—

You could very much, if it's a relay race, if you get to that mark on time, that part of the baby is yours. You could.

But if you're trying to drive a culture of collaboration, you may have to— because one of the things that's breaking— well, Some companies are worried about is breaking down the collaboration right now. There's some concern around that.

What's the solution to the collaboration part?

Well, I think again, you have to decide what level of collaboration is critical for what you're doing. Are you an individual who's delivering your specific task and it doesn't relate to anybody else's? Okay, fine. Are you part of a relay race where you have to pass it on to someone else and they have to do something and pass it on? Or are you doing something in a project where everyone has to work together? Think synchronized swimming. You've all got to be there in the same room delivering against the same objective. I think it works for certain types. I think you have to think through whether as a leader, whether it's going to work for your particular parts of the projects or the work that you're doing.

Does this leadership require courage? If so, What kind of courage? What do they have to do to manifest courage?

Courage is a fascinating idea, and I'm glad we're talking about it. When you think about courage, what do most people think about courage? Even if you look at the definition of courage, what do people say courage is? It's like the ability to do something that frightens you, right? Or it's having strength in the face of pain and grief, right? That's what That's what courage is typically described as. And if you think about any situation from that lens, CB, that it frightens you or it's potential pain and grief, you've got fear underneath it.

Yes.

But I guess what I'm encouraging leaders to look at and say, what if you didn't see it that way?

Where are the benefits?

Right. And say, yeah, what's the potentiality here? What's the possibility that could come from this? How might it change the way we work in the future in a way that's going to save us money, that's going to make us more effective? Looking at it through the lens of what I call the joy of possibility versus that lens of fear.

I love it. You and I are on the same exact page. How does one coach for that joy of possibility?

Well, first of all, you have to help leaders recognize it. The way I look at it, CB, there's only 2 foundational thought systems, just 2. And if you start to watch, I don't need to prove it with science or any of that. If you start to watch, you'll realize it's one or the other. Fear, angst, frustration, irritation, disgust, jealousy, blame, grief, guilt, whatever. Okay. It's a whole— there's a whole menu of options around fear and what I call the joy of possibility, potentiality. What could be? How could we see this? in a new light. And if you start to look at, there's really those 2. And so the first step with any leader is to say, okay, we need to get clear. There are only 2. And I take them through exercises to help them understand, ah, oh, I am in fear. I thought it was anger, but it actually is fear. Oh, I thought that was disgust. It is fear. Oh, that blame was fear. So you have to help them understand that there really are these only 2. And by the way, they don't interlink. They're separate. They're completely separate. You're in one or the other. You can switch back and forth quickly, but you're either in one or the other. So the first step is to get there, and then you have to have— okay, is this fear, is it serving you? Is it helping you? Is it getting you where you want to be? And of course, 99.999% of the time, no, it's not, because fear only ever drives more fear. And if you run on fear long enough, you're going to burn out. You're not going to be living a happy life. You know, Whatever. So it's really about helping them realize what it would look like to shift over into that space of possibility, potentiality. What might that look like? And it really helps them envision about what the future might be. And you start to see the sparks because you start to see the excitement behind it. Even just talking about what we just talked about, about how do you look at things from different— like this first project payment instead of salaries.

Hmm.

Right.

So this would be a really good time to show your books that you've written.

Oh, okay. Well, I happen to have some. Okay. I've always— this is my latest, actually. This is the one, um, The Forgotten Choice.

Oops.

Shift your inner mindset, shape your outer world.

Love it.

This is the one that talks about joy and, uh, joy, possibility, and fear.

Okay.

Okay. Inside Job of Leadership. Right. Inside Job of Leadership. That's really foundational.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's the key one. I've written 11, but—

Okay. Bring them. Bring it.

Oh, I don't have all 11, but I can show you some of them. This is like one of my favorite titles. Would You Want to Work for You?

Oh, of course I would.

That's what most leaders say until they read the book.

That's driving me crazy. But yes.

Yeah, maybe not. But what this is, is the top 15— sorry, the top 15 mistakes that I regularly see executives making when it comes to leading others.

I love it. Okay.

And then this is the one leading you, which is the top 15 self-leadership mistakes that I regularly see executives making. Yeah. So just a few. I see.

I'm going to be enhancing my library of Brenda's books.

I'm sure you have a lot of them in your library, but—

How do you, how do you have the courage to write so fiercely, so prolifically? When do you do it?

Well, okay, sleep is highly overrated, obviously.

Oh my God, I so agree.

I mean, let's be real clear, okay? It's 3 in the morning as I speak to you, so sleep is highly overrated. Um, but no, I'm kidding. But no, I, I'm actually not getting much. You run a full-time business, I run a full-time business. Um, it's evenings, it's weekends, it's holidays, you know, you, you work on books. But I always say it's— writing is a calling. It's, to me, it's just a calling. It's, it's like I'm, I'm not going to leave this planet with those books stuck inside of me. It's not going to happen. They've got to come out. So, you know.

Well, do you have any advice for writers out there like me?

Yeah, you got your new book coming out, right?

Are you working on it? Yeah, I just found out I have to have a, a proofreader, an editor. I'm like, can't I just put it out?

No, it doesn't work like that.

Yeah.

Oh, I could write— I could do a whole hour on book, book writing. But, you know, look, a few tips and tools. How do you go about writing, CB? How do you go about doing it?

I kind of— it's like the urge comes and then I write. But, you know, I will confess to you and everybody listening, I get writer's block. I'm like, I have all this stuff in my head and then I sit down to write it and I'm like, okay.

So, CB, that writer's block, fear or joy of possibility?

You said I can't have both at the same time, right? Joy of possibility.

Does it feel elation when you are having writer's block? Does it feel great?

Oh no, but once I start writing, it feels great. It's like, wow, I didn't realize I had that much to say.

Here's, here's what I, what I do. I take So every room in my office, every room in my home, every, every drawer in a desk, every purse that I own has a Post-it pad in it. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And every time— actually, usually the big ones— ideas will hit me at the craziest times— day and morning, night. I don't know about you, but when they hit me, I will stop everything I'm doing and grab the nearest Post-it pad and jot it down.

Okay.

Because I think that that is a gift. That's a gift that's come through, and I don't know what it's going to— where it's going to be used or what the idea, but I know that idea is going to be used. What I do is I go around once a month, I grab all those Post-it pads and pull off all the pieces of paper that have been written on, and I come back to my book. Because now the way I start a book is I'll take a folder and I'll put plastic sheaths inside of it, and I think there's kind of general chapters And I look at that idea and I say, oh yeah, okay, that would be chapter 4. That's going to be— I put it in that little sheet. By the time I'm done, I've got all these Post-it notes inside of all these plastic sheets. I sit down, type it all up. I suddenly have an outline of everything. I have some key ideas, and then it just starts to flow and flow. The most important thing I think for any book: outline, outline, outline. Don't try to write it from start to finish.

Do a—

do an incredible outline, so clear That, that outline, just looking at the bullet points and the outlines, you get the idea. Then all you have to do is fill it in with the wonderful words that make it flow.

So these Post-its you use as an outline too? Yep.

Yeah, it helps a lot. Yeah, an outline and the main and core ideas, big ideas that come through.

Yeah. I'm going to tell you about synchronicity.

Oh, I love synchronicity.

Yesterday, my husband was cleaning out the basement because he wants to make it his man cave. And I'm a very smart wife. I gave him a wine cooler for Christmas. And I said, you get to keep your present if you clean out the basement and make it your man cave.

Seems like a fair choice.

I think so, because he wants his man cave. And I'm like, okay, fine, we have the space, just you gotta clean it out. So yesterday he came upstairs and he said, you have thousands of Post-it pads.

CB, it was meant to be.

Synchronicity.

I want to see one in every one of those shelves behind you, every desk, every drawer, everywhere you turn. Every purse.

Going down the gauntlet. And, and, and I had the nerve to say to Marshall, Marshall, will you write my foreword? And he said, of course, daughter, I will. And he said, send me the galley. And I had to quickly look up what does galley mean? And I'm like, oh my God, that means the whole book. What the heck did I do?

Yes, the galley. Galley sounds like a fun word. It's not. It means you've got the whole thing's pretty much done. And you've got to send it around to people for testimonials, for forewords, etc. Yeah.

Yeah. And I'm like, oh dear, I better get busy.

OK, it's going to be a little while before he gets the galley, but that's OK. Just tell him you still have a commitment from him. That's the key.

Yes, yes, yes. OK, so let's go back to talking about some of the things that we were talking about in terms of COVID Right now we have basically 5 pandemics. Let me see if I can remember them all. We've got COVID, we've got mental health, we've got economics, we have social justice, and we have environment. Are you seeing that people at the top of the organization are reacting differently to each one of these separately, together, and what's happening?

Well, Well, it's a perfect storm, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely.

It's a perfect storm. And what I always say is when the world outside, whether it's one pandemic, 2, 5, whatever, when the world outside is in a complete state of chaos, when a complete state of disruption, the most critical thing we can do, CB, is disrupt the one thing inside of us that can handle all of it. And that's the way we think.

Ah.

Again, we got to come at it from a watch those thoughts. Are you falling into a space of fear? Are you falling— are you allowing yourself to get into that place of possibility, potentiality? You know, everyone's saying COVID is, is, is, is horrible, and I get that. And I— and everyone's saying, you know, what's happening in the climate is horrible, but because of that, we're more aware of it. We can do something about it. It's become a global problem, so we can all— all countries can work together to resolve this. We got people working, got countries working together that haven't worked together in decades. There's some positive things going on, right?

You know, you and Dr. Tim Clark, who I had on the show, um, have a very similar philosophy. The way that he phrases it is that COVID is the great was or is the great liquefier, which we have the opportunity to flow together to solve the issues. For me, I hate to be Debbie Downer, I'm not seeing it happen.

Oh, I—

I saw it happen for a minute, a New York minute, when we had to get those shots together. But now, you know, that, that structure to be the first to the finish line has come back and started to haunt us. That, that sense that we have in us, especially women— will we forget the pain of childbirth? We're forgetting the pain. And we're going back and trying to fit things like they were before. So now we're going through a different type of pain to say, well, wait a second, we can't get the baby back in the womb. So now it's more painful because we're trying to do this. What the heck are we doing?

Well, so a couple things. Number one, I see it slightly different, but it could be because of where I'm living. And, you know, I do see countries working together. I do see people connecting in a way that they haven't connected before. And this—

is this related strictly to COVID?

Yeah, I think a lot of— I think COVID has been the, the, the catalyst for it.

But are you seeing it in the other pandemics that are out there?

I have some of them. Some of them, yes. I think mental health, we're seeing some real attention on that, which is something that's needed needed attention for a long time. Climate, people are talking about it and doing things more about it than I've seen in a while. I mean, so I think again, it's getting movement, it's making things happen. But I guess, and I'm going to— you talk about being Pollyanna, but I firmly believe, this is my foundational belief, everything is always working out for our greater good, for our greatest good.

Right.

We may not be able to see it. Just like my never say never. I could never really— when you're living life, it feels like you're going all over the map and it's chaotic, and then you look back and realize it was a perfectly straight line. I suspect that's how we're going to look back at this time right now.

Yeah, I, you know, not, not to be Debbie Downer, I am seeing change, but I think I personally, I'm restless. I want to see it faster. Stronger. I sound like the beginning of Superman movie, you know, um, tall buildings. Yes, yes, leaping tall buildings. Um, because I am seeing, for example, and maybe it is that companies are not sure which to place first, because when we were dealing with COVID it was clear it was a straight road to let's get this COVID under control.

Right.

Then you put in social justice and it was, oh, wait a second, we may have COVID under control, let's switch to social justice. Environment has always been here, economics has always been here. Then all of a sudden we're seeing the repercussions of social justice plus COVID and we've got mental health. Let's switch to mental health. I'm not seeing the fierceness that I saw as each one started and was identified in coming to joint solution. I want to see that fierceness come back.

The focus. Well, it's hard to focus when you've got 5 things, right?

Exactly.

That's why I say in many ways where we need to focus, where leaders need to focus today, is get clear insight first. what's going on, then make decisions outside. I call it, um, being vertically aligned. So I talk about leadership branding from the inside out, CB. Inside out meaning the way you think, what you believe, and how you feel. That's all on the inside. Nobody sees that, right? It's all on the inside. But it's a little bit like— do you remember when we were kids and we had Mr. Potato Head? Do you remember Mr. Potato Head? So you had like— there there was like the body and the head, and right, and they weren't always connected, and you always wanted to lock them loaded. And this is the same with us. When what we think and what we feel and what we believe is on the inside, nobody can see that. We don't know what's going on. But if we act, react, look, sound, speak, talk, and it's completely different, you're not vertically aligned. And I think that's what's happening a lot in society today. We have beliefs and we have thoughts and feelings, but they're not consistent with the way we're acting, reacting, and Yeah. Until we lock and load and connect that and get vertically aligned, we're going to continue to have these problems. And that's why I say you, you've got to— it's when the world outside is in a complete state of chaos, we're trying to desperately trying to solve all these problems. We got to solve the inner problem first. We've got to get clear. We have to get— that's why I think mental health to me is just so foundational, because once you solve the The mental health challenge, the socioeconomic challenges get solved, the racial challenges. Once you get aligned internally and understand what makes you really tick and figuring that out, the rest will come is my thinking.

I like that thinking. I'm on board with that thinking. What are we doing to help our leaders have the same thinking?

Well, I think as coaches, we need to help them to recognize their own inner game first and then start, okay, now let's seek others that are in the same situation. Let's try to find some allies and some similar type of thought patterns to create this movement.

You said in the beginning, being a leader, it's lonely at the top. Isn't that we need to have more collaboration with leaders across industries Where they can talk in a noncompetitive way and come to solutions easier. And in those solutions, not just external solutions, have the ability to take a deep breath, do some yoga, and see what's inside, what's their true beliefs, so that they understand the energy that they're putting out there.

100%. 100%. And, you know, I think doing masterminds at the C-suite level is really critical. Not just for business, but to help them understand that the people that they're most connected with are probably not going to be the best solution providers. It's actually the best solution providers come from people who are actually your least connected people because they're going to come at it from such a different perspective. And that's why the beauty of bringing leaders together from different, different functions, different industries, different parts of the world can be so powerful. The other thing is, and again, you talk about energy, one of the things that I, I never was into this, and now I've really changed my tune, was meditation.

Really?

Yes, I'm really working with senior leaders right now on it. It's making huge difference in a lot of people. And I'll tell you why. I never really liked it. I, I never got it. I always felt like it was a fraternity or sorority I wasn't asked to join. Like, I could never figure it out, you know? Like, I'm not good at this. And then I started realizing, actually, what happens when you meditate, CB? What happens when you meditate is you choose to focus on one thing and you give complete focus to one thing, whether it's, uh, your breathing, whether it's white noise. I use white noise where you just turn on white noise and you focus on that, or whether it's a candle, whatever. When you give your complete attention to one thing What happens is your attention focuses and all that angst, anxiety, fear releases itself. And you can get back to this kind of natural, normal self of the way you think and believe. And getting leaders to embrace this has been— it's really been interesting. It's been a new thing that I've done in the last year, year and a half or so.

So give me a picture of how you're running this. Are you running it as a group? Or you go into somebody's office and you say, let's meditate?

No, they come to my office and I'll walk them through the process. We'll do it together for 5, 10 minutes and they get the idea and then they have their marching orders to go off and try to do it, you know, do it every day and report back on how it's going.

And do they, before they leave, do they select the one thing they're going to focus on?

It's up to them. I mean, often they'll say they want to try a few different things. Because some— I know I did. I tried for a while. I tried the breathing, that didn't work. I tried other things, but for me it's white noise. So you turn on YouTube, find a white noise on YouTube. I'm listening to like a fan or listening to, uh, sounds like the inside of a plane, which I haven't been on for so long. It's kind of nice to hear it. Yeah, but it's been interesting to watch the outcomes. It's really made differences.

Now, this is a very interesting subject because I have tried meditation and it didn't work for me because my mind is racing, which is the point of doing meditation. How do you get to the point where you focus on one thing? That's kind of scary to me.

Here's the thing. So do it for 15. Part of it is to say, oh, I must do it for an hour and I must sit like a yogi. And no, no, no, no, no. I do it first thing when I wake up in the morning. I don't even get out of bed. I just stay flat on my back and meditate. But do it for 15 minutes. And you know what? There may be 14 minutes of my mind racing and 1 minute of me being focused, and that's okay.

Ah, this is the difference.

We have such a belief, I must do it for 15 straight minutes or I'm a failure. Well, where is that coming from? That's fear. If I'm judging myself while I'm doing it, that's not going to work. If I can get 30 seconds out of a 15-minute, I'll be happy. And eventually, as you just keep doing it more and more, you get better and better and better and better.

Yeah.

And anyway, it's been fun for me to watch this because I never was into this. And I have so many leaders that were having anxiety issues, that were having mental health issues. And I said, let's, let's, let's give this a shot. And it's been really extraordinary to watch the outcome.

Do you have your Post-its by your side when you're doing it?

No, um, no, here's the thing. So I, I hear what you're saying because those ideas that fly in, okay, those gifts, um, I— well, I shouldn't say I don't have them. I have a Post-it everywhere, CB. So, but I will—

I—

if there's something that's really hitting me in the middle of a meditation, I will stop and write it down and go back because the truth is I don't want to lose it if it's a great idea. But for the most part, I really do clear my mind. Yeah.

You've given such pearls of wisdom today. I hate to start winding down, but let's keep going. Any other new things that you're seeing out there that leaders are doing that you feel are requiring courage? Again, let's go back to our definition of courage. It's the small things. I define courage as Choosing to act or choosing not to act.

Okay, okay.

And it, it could be I've chosen to move the pencil from the pad to my Post-it notes. That's going to require courage for me.

Okay, and I, and I, I like that a lot. I like that a lot. I want to— it takes confidence too. And one of the things that I've noticed a lot in the last 2 years is confidence and what's happening to the levels of confidence as everything again on the outside is disruptive. How do you maintain a level of confidence in yourself, in your organization, in your people? And what I've done is talk to people about how do you define confidence?

I was just going to say that to you.

Yeah. How do you define it?

Tell me.

And here's how I've come to define it. CB, I think confidence is a strong knowing that no matter what happens, I'm going to be okay.

I like that because the way that I define life is I'm going to leap first and then figure out where I'm going to land.

Wow.

Because I always know I'm gonna get up, take what I've learned, put it in my pocket, and continue.

And keep— and brush yourself off and keep going. Yeah, so I think this concept of no matter what happens, I'm going to be okay, and just even asking coaching clients, okay, scale of 1 to 10, 10 is yes, I believe that 100%, and 1 is are you kidding me, I'm not even close to that. Um, it's interesting to watch people's numbers raise over time. They may start out very low and say, no, I don't believe that. But then over time, as they start to build up their confidence, they realize, yeah, I am going to be okay. I am going to be okay. This is going to turn out all right. We're going to be okay.

Let me ask you this question, which may get you in a little bit of trouble, but that's why we're here. I run a group called Women's Power Pack. Small groups at a time. And you can't talk about family, can't talk about friends, can't talk about illness except during the first minute. You can do it laser in the first minute. After that, it's pure business discussions.

Okay.

There's some amazing things that are coming out of this group. And you have to be at a certain level in business to get into the group.

Makes sense.

Do you feel that men have more confidence than women?

You know, I think there's a— okay, I know that there's a belief that that's the case.

Um, anyway, let me let you off the hook. Or is it just very different?

It's okay. Um, here's the thing. I coach— I coach— my coaching balance on average is about 57% men and 43% women. So it's close to 50/50. I think men have just as many confidence issues as women.

Yeah.

And they don't show it, and they're certainly not going to show it to their team, to their organization, to their bosses, to the But they will eventually share it to a coach if they feel they have that sense of safety, that psychological safety, and that sense of rapport and comfort. That's why I say I see just as many confidence issues in men than women, because men are willing to talk about it with a coach.

Yes, I have to agree with you there. I also think it's displayed differently.

Oh yeah, well, externally, yeah, absolutely. But with a coach, you'd be— I mean, I don't know about you, but it's, it's pretty raw at times.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's okay. It's a safe place to talk about it.

Absolutely. And I think I'm gonna go so far as a healthy relationship between men and women is women allowing men to show that Vulnerability, and men allowing women to show that confidence.

And men feeling comfortable to show their own vulnerability.

Yeah, that's right, their own vulnerability, and supporting women in showing their confidence. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, like your husband, my husband, they're strong men, right?

I'm married to an Italian. Does that, you know, drop the mic there?

I mean, being married to us would be challenging. It'd be a good, good, good challenge, right? So yeah, strong women.

I mean, I, I listen when we have our meetings at MG100, and normally I'm tossed into a group with a bunch of men, and they start talking about what they're worried about, what they're concerned about. And when it first happened, I thought Are you kidding me? And then I realized, no, this is, this is interesting stuff.

Hmm.

Because what it's saying is they're willing to self-disclose more, but among men, their peers, than women. And I thought that men were not capable of disclosing it amongst themselves men.

Well, the other thing is, I think the MG100 are a pretty special group, you know. I mean, they're, they're really— let's be honest, they're enlightened. They're, they're chosen for a reason. So maybe there's something to— I don't know, maybe there's something to that. I'm not sure.

But that's true.

No, and I've seen in CEO masterminds too where they're willing to open up to others if they feel there's, there's a comfort level there.

Let's talk about the CEO masterminds. How do you— obviously you run a few of them— how do you get immediate bonding, or how long does it take to bond?

I think it depends on the nationalities. I know that shouldn't say that.

No, that's fabulous. I do.

I think it depends. I think there's certain nationalities where they're just going to open up and talk about it because that's what they're used to. I think there's other nationalities that were like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, we need to date here before we get married.

Nationalities do you feel open up the fastest?

I, you know, look, in general, I think you've got South American, they'll open up and talk. You've got America, actually, I think North America is open to that. Europe somewhat. Asian a little bit less. It depends on the— and by the way, I don't like the word Asian because it's like 40 different countries and they're all very different. So I don't like to group people like that. But so it depends on the, the, the individual country and, and where they're coming from, what their education is, where they were educated. So it's just, it's just, it's individual.

I agree. Yeah, I agree. Um, and somebody is writing in, in a different language. I'm I'm thinking this language may be Russian. I am not sure because I can't read the alphabet, but they may be agreeing or I'm not sure. So I wish I did know.

Pull out Google Translate.

Oh, that's a great idea, but I don't think we have time. I will screenshot and do it later. In Europe and in Asia where you are, I've come to learn when I talk to people like Ernest, who has written Inclusive Leadership, Global Impact, you find out that there is not the same concerns around social justice as there are here in the United States. What are you seeing in your part of the world? Is there a replacement? Is it more of a caste system? What happens out there?

I think it depends on country, but I also think to understand what's going on is why is all this happening? Why is all this raising up? I think so much of it is our foundations are being shaken right now. Yes, everything that we've come to be comfortable with is, is, is just like— it's like an earthquake happening all around the world. And so what happens when people feel uncomfortable in that level of, oh my gosh, all my foundations are being shaken, they look for something to hold on to. And I'll just try to hold on to my identity. I'll try to hold on to my, my stubborn beliefs. I'll try to just something to give me a sense of—

Terra firma.

Terra firma, normalcy. And that's what's going on. And that whether it's happening with social justice, whether it's happening with Or injustice, whether it's happening from a whole host of different reasons or a whole host of different viewpoints, it's really that. And once people realize that's what's going on, then it can actually bring some calmness and sense to it. But I think right now there's just so much that's shake— that's being shaken. Everything, right?

Everything.

It's like everyone just took everything and threw it up into the air and let's see what happens when it falls down. And that kind of uncertainty is just causing— like I said, when everything outside is in that complete state of chaos, we do everything we can to find some form of foundation, something we can hold on to.

That's a great point of view. I know that nations around the world are watching us. But at the same time, I feel we are watching them. That's a new thing too, because we always thought of ourselves as the leader, even though we're isolated. Well, guess what? We're finding out that we have a lot to learn from other parts of the world.

Well, I think that's it. And I think that's another one of the great things that's coming from COVID is you've got, you've got countries connecting and talking about things that they've never talked about before. And it's all happening on television because we can see it. They're all happening in social media because we can all see it. So we have the systems in place now to bring people together like we've never had before. And that's why I said we can look at this from a lens through fear, or we can look at it and say, ooh, there's some real possibility here. There's some real possibility.

So we only have a few minutes left. Now I'm going to ask you the big question, and you have to be very specific.

Oh, okay.

Think of a time where you had to muster the greatest courage of your life. What was it and what were the outcomes?

Do you want personal or professional? Because I have— they're both pretty tough.

Give us both.

Oh, really? Okay, should I start with personal or professional?

Uh, professional.

To leave the corporate world, 6-figure job, flying around on the corporate jet, um, had a I was running 50 countries, 4 continents. I was top 300 of a Fortune 100 company. And I just, I knew, I knew I, I couldn't do it anymore. I just couldn't do it anymore. I wasn't honoring myself. I wasn't, I wasn't the wife I wanted to be. I wasn't the person I wanted to be. I was exhausted. I was a harried, exhausted executive. And I just said, I can't do this anymore. And I left and I went and started my own business. And I remember sitting there in my second bedroom. I started, I started my business on April Fool's Day of 2002. And now here's why, you see, because I thought if, if it doesn't work out, I'm going to run back and say, kidding. I'm just kidding here. I, you know, in case it didn't work out. So literally the April 1st of this year will be 20 years that I've been doing this now. So that was terrifying. And I remember sitting in my second bedroom. I had put a desk in there with a laptop and it was Monday morning, April 1st. And I thought, what the hell have I done? What have I done? What have I done? Everything I was training for, I just walked away from. Right. And I remember I wanted to stand for branding. That's what I wanted to stand for. 'Cause that was my, that was what I did. And I hadn't integrated leadership back then yet. But I wanted to do branding, and I gave myself 6 months to find my first client because I didn't have a clue what— how long it was going to take. And so the phone rang on Wednesday, and someone says, hey, I heard you started a new business, and, and you're— we'd love to have you come and talk to us about, um, uh, sales. I'm like, sales? I'm branding, you know, I'm branding. So I, I remember thinking, I'm gonna have to— I'm gonna turn down this first first call. And I said, well, no, but I'm standing for branding. And if you know anybody who needs branding, let me know. And I hung up. I'm thinking, I just said no to my first potential client. Right? I mean, seriously, Thursday comes, phone rings again. Hi, we're having it. We'd love to have you come talk to us about human resources. I'm like, okay, seriously, universe, this is not funny. Okay. Because I'm like, no, I'm branding. So I hung up the phone. I'm like, this is crazy. This is madness. And the Friday phone rings and it was my former boss from my former company saying, we want to hire you to do a really big project for us because we really miss you and we want you. And so my first job was a very, very nice big one, but, and it was on branding. So if I had held out to stand what I stood for, so I tell you, there was moments. That was pretty scary. That was pretty scary.

I love that story because I have now to tell my own. Um, about a month ago, I got a call from one of the members of ACEC and said to me, CB, we'd love for you to be our keynote speaker in Spain. Yeah, I'm not traveling to Spain. Oh. You could do it by Zoom. I said, okay, what do you want me to talk about? Executive coaching? No. DEI?

No.

I said, well, what would you want me to talk about? And they said, courage.

Ooh.

And I said, courage? I don't know anything about courage. And they said— they started laughing. They said, CB, you're the most courageous person We've ever met.

Come on now. Who jumps off cliffs without realizing where they're going. Yes, yes.

And I gave my presentation. It was a hit. And I said— I called up my mentor and I said, this is what happened. And he said to me, I was wondering when you were going to get to that point and put out your stakes on that subject.

Oh, that's awesome.

What? So sometimes—

No one else was expecting it but you.

There you go. Yeah, exactly.

That's often the way it works. I love it.

Okay, tell us about the personal one.

Well, it's very personal, actually. Um, I was engaged to be— so I was working for Procter Gamble, and, uh, I was engaged to be married to a guy who also worked at Procter Gamble. We met there, and I was head over heels, um, truly, truly in love. And I was just— this was the person I was going to spend the rest of my life with, and I was so excited. And but he lost his job at P&G. It didn't turn out very well, so he moved to New York. I was in Cincinnati at the time. He moved to New York, so we were doing the whole long-distance thing, and it was just— it was quite difficult. So we decided, look, here's what we're going to do. Let's— we both wanted to go overseas, so let's both apply to our respective companies, and whoever gets the first job first overseas will be— the other person will follow them. Great. All right, fantastic. I put into my company saying I want to move overseas. I want to move overseas. I want to move overseas. I want to move overseas. Three months later, they said, "Okay, we got an opportunity for you." Like, oh my gosh! This is amazing, right? And it was going to be in in Prague, you know, in the Czech Republic. I mean, what an amazing place to be living, right? I was like so excited. I called up my fiancé. I'm like, "Oh my gosh! It's." You know, we're gonna do it. Dead silence. But I thought, okay, maybe just a little bit of shock at the beginning. All right, so anyway, long story short, they set me up. Long story short, they end up changing it to Warsaw, Poland a week later, which is fine. Okay, long story short, but it worked out well in the end. Warsaw, Poland. So I'm gonna go to Warsaw, Poland. I'm feeling this hesitancy, but I'm trying to ignore it, you know, from my fiancé. And finally, the night before we're leaving, we're supposed to meet in New York and fly on to Warsaw for a look-see visit to make sure it's a good fit and pick a place to live and all that. And he called me up at 11:30 at night and said, I won't follow my woman around the world.

What?

And I remember thinking, Okay, first of all, I just dodged a bullet because someone who would say that is not the person I can spend the rest of my life with. But in the meantime, I had to make a big decision. Am I going to live— am I going to move overseas into a country where I know no one? I don't know the language, I don't know the food, I don't know the culture, I don't know anything, by myself, when I was going to go as a, you know, Somewhat married person, and I did. And I went by myself, and I showed up in the dead of winter too. When it was like in in Warsaw, Poland, it doesn't snow like this; it snows like this. The wind is just so strong, and I was just like. I remember six months of thinking, what have again? What have I done? What have I done about? And it was just it was a painful process. But seventeen months. Into living there. I was in an event, I attended an event, and the first time people showed up and had to introduce themselves. So there was this young man that stood up in the back of the room and he said, my name is Daniel Jackman and I'm from— and he's from the same state I was from. And I started laughing out loud, like laughing out loud, because I'm like, that's hilarious, nobody's from that state, right? So anyway, we started talking after that, and, um, 3 years later he asked me to marry him and And we're married, and we've been married 24 years.

What a great story of courage and success. Oh, thank you for sharing.

It's, it, you know, but again, what, like I said, when you're living life, it often feels like you're in a chaotic, you know, mishmash or one of those crazy games at a ride, you know, in the fair. But then you look back and go, it was a perfect Absolutely. Perfectly straight.

Absolutely. Or if not perfectly straight, it was meant to be, and it was better than you thought it would be.

Everything is always working out for our greatest good.

Yes. Oh gosh, I hate— we are overtime.

We're here.

Listeners know I'm notorious about— but when I get into such a great conversation, I don't want it to end. And this has been been so special.

Oh, I've enjoyed it.

I am so glad to get to know you on a different level because when we first started working together, we were working on logos and it was like, you'll do this, you'll do that. And gosh, you're a special person.

Oh, CB, you are always such a ray of sunshine, so it was really fun to connect with you. I appreciate this.

Thank you so much. So hold up your latest book. We want to encourage people to read it.

The Forgotten Choice.

The Forgotten Choice. And the chapter that you're referring to is—

Um, you mean the chapter of Possibilities? Oh, well, the whole book is about possibilities.

Oh yeah, okay.

You can't miss it. People tell me it's a really fast read and they don't put it down from front to the end.

So yeah, great, great. Well, I have my homework. I'm getting out the Post-its.

Now you know where they are. They're from the basement. You got a lot of them.

Yes, they're up above here now, and I'm starting my meditation.

Excellent. You're on a roll. I should be doing— let's do some accountability partnership here. You should— I should check in with you.

Okay. Okay. You know those questions that Marshall gets asked every morning? All right.

That's right.

How many Post-its did I do during the day? Thank you so much for sharing. You know, all of you. Thank you for sharing.

That was good fun. Thank you.

Hey audience, uh, what can I say? Each week we get better and stronger and fly tall, leaping over tall buildings. So please join us next week. We have another special guest, and you know how you can find out? Sign up and subscribe to the newsletter. That's where I announce upcoming guests. But just, you know what, just announcing them does not Talk about the wealth of knowledge and sharing that they bring. I'm so grateful. I'm so lucky to know people like Brenda. I hope you'll pick up her books and drop her a note on LinkedIn. Why not, right? Expand the possibilities. This is CB, over and out. And Brenda, thank you.

Thank you again.