Challenges of the C-Suite: The Courage to Lead with Patty Marbury, Episode 79

Hello everybody, this is CB Bowman Live. You know that. Well, you know, we're not supposed to be on today, but I have a special for you. We are now switching to being on only on Tuesdays. So you know that expression, if you snooze you lose? You don't want to be snoozing because I have some Powerful, inspirational, amazing guests on. You know that all the time. So we're probably going to replay this on Tuesday later in the year in case you missed it, because we are moving to Tuesdays. So how you all doing? Hey, I fixed up my hair for you today. Don't you love it? And I've got the glossy lipstick working. I'm telling you, you know, you guys have nothing on me. Right? So I have a new friend. Her name is Polly— Patty. Oh my God, Jesus.

I've been called worse.

Patty Marbury. I actually met her husband first, I think. No, or did I meet you first?

You met my husband Tony first.

I met You know what, I just realized that both of our husbands have the same name.

I think we talked about that.

Yeah, oh my God, okay. And here's what's funny, here's the secret, my husband is white, her husband is Black.

What?

Both Tonys, right?

That's funny.

Oh, I love it. Hey, let's get started. Patti Mulberry has a lot to talk to us about. us about. And you know, our focus this year is on courage, and my gosh, this woman exemplifies the word courage. You know, I want to try to have really powerful— sorry, men— really powerful women on the show because I don't think that we have really shown the world our courage and our talents. And So I'm looking for those kind of women, and boy, did I find it in Patty. So Patty, tell us about yourself.

Okay, well, that's quite an introduction. I never have thought of myself as really being courageous, but I do appreciate you saying that. Um, I think there's a lot more women who have a lot more courage than I do, but— and I look up to those kinds of folks. So, tell you a little bit about myself.

Wait, before you do that, I'm going to address what you just said, because I think this is a thing that we women do, which is we don't acknowledge the courage we have. And men do this. And the, and the spirit of, I didn't do anything grandiose, but you know, sometimes it takes just courage just getting out of bed. It takes courage. So my definition of courage is to act or to decide not to act. I think that many of us don't realize how courageous we are because we think of it as in terms of generals and, you know, presidents and all of this stuff. But it's not. It's people that make a difference in their lives and people that make a difference in the lives of others. And, Patti, you are a firm example as a woman who has courage.

Thank you. I'll remember that the next time I think that I don't. I'll remember what you just said. I really liked what you said. And we'll— I know we'll talk more about this in a bit, but I really like what you just said about It takes courage to act. It doesn't, you know, it— and the only time I think about, you know, courage not to act is if you're trying to restrain yourself from, from acting. But so in maybe perhaps a negative way. So I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about that later. Yes.

Tell us about you. Yes.

So I, I am a training— I am the training director for finance at UVA, University of Virginia. And I've been there for 20 years. And my entire background, working career background, has been in the area of training and development. So from the time I got into my— not necessarily my first job, but my first career job out of grad school, I sort of fell into the area of training and development. And just went on from there. Came to the University of Virginia in 2000 to work on an implementation of enterprise resource planning system, which is like the administrative system for any business. Oracle is one, Workday is another. We were implementing Oracle at the time, and so I was brought in to To be a trainer in that environment. Um, you know, I have to say that took courage because I feel like it didn't— it was not an area that I was comfortable with. I was not a technical person. I was not, um, I still am not. That's a secret. Um, um, and, um, but I, I had to get into an entirely new environment in a new organization with new people in a new town because we had just recently moved to Charlottesville from the DC area. And so that was 20 years ago. And so my career has developed at the University of Virginia since then. And other things in my life that I think are helpful to know is that I have 2 adult children, 2 adult daughters. My husband, Tony, is— was a military— he was in the military when we first, um, got married. We dated after high school, but we went to high school together. Um, so we've known each other for a very, very long time. I won't, I won't give away that.

We'll get to that if you—

Um, ages, almost half a century. Um, so, um, we got married, and then he was in the military. So after I graduated from college, we moved around a bit. And I went to the University of Maryland. And we moved around a little bit too. We moved to Hawaii, then we moved to Maine, and then we got stationed back in Andrews. And that was when we had our first daughter, Emily. And then 3 years later, we had our second daughter, Natalie. And so we have 2 daughters. Around the time that they were, uh, Emily was getting ready to enter school, we decided that— and Tony had then by then gotten out of the, um, Air Force, but he was in the reserves— we, but we decided to move to Charlottesville. Our family had bought property here many, many years ago. And, um, so I was familiar with this area. I'd come here frequently as a child. Um, I lived in Charlottesville when I was a baby for just a brief period of time. But our family knew this area and we had some property nearby, and so we decided to move here and raise our kids here. And so that's where I've been since. And they have since— now Emily is in the Army. She's a helicopter pilot. So talk about courage. There is sometimes— I think both of my daughters, like CB, I think that they— you should interview them sometime.

I will.

Yeah, I know you will. Um, Emily is, um, um, she's an Apache pilot, so she's getting ready to graduate from flight school, and, um, she is also getting ready to get married. Um, her fiancée Rebecca is in the Air Force, and so they both are badass women, um, who have tons and tons of courage. And then they're going to be stationed in Washington, um, the Washington State. So, um, they're, they're moving on in their careers. And then my daughter Natalie, also an extremely courageous person, lives in Utah right now. Um, but she, she moved out to Utah with her boyfriend last year, right after they graduated, or soon after they graduated from college. She went to Virginia Tech and graduated in 2020. So she had no graduation because of COVID But she and her friends went out and hiked the Pacific Crest Trail for a couple of months. And then she is a wildlife conservationist. She majored in wildlife conservation. And so to talk about both of them and the courage that it takes to do the work that they do, Natalie had to work on 2 different projects this past summer with people she didn't know. She had to live by herself in a FEMA trailer to do one of her jobs, one of the work—

Projects.

project she was working on. And, um, just, you know, I just think that it's amazing what, what, what people are doing, and I'm so proud of them. I know you asked about my background, but I feel like—

Wait a second, wait, you have to throw all that out and we're gonna skip.

So I, I feel like that's so much a part of who I am, so yeah, really important to share that.

I, I am so glad that you did because I mean, I thought I was going to interview you about your work that you're doing.

I, I want to get to that.

But, but, but I am so tongue-tied about your amazing daughters. I'm like, okay, where do I go from here? And rarely do I get stumped because I want to know how you raised such amazing daughters. What What, what did you feed them?

I, I think, well, first of all, you mentioned this earlier, my husband's Black, I'm white, so they're biracial. They went to a school that is probably 95% white, and I just think their upbringing, their, the environment that they were in took Took some courage. We're talking about courage. It took courage to do that. Um, they learned to be who they are from an early age, you know, that they, um, you know, had to be themselves. Of course, they had the issues that people have in middle school and high school, and, um, and they're, you know, they both have really great groups of friends. And so I think that, you know, from that perspective, they didn't experience what some of— some people do in that period of time. But I also just think, you know, I— and I give a lot— I, I do think that both my husband and I, um, have done, you know, we've— I think my daughters would say that we've been great parents. But I, I also have to give my husband a lot of credit for that, for being an extremely involved parent. Well, we both are, but He was their coaches when they were young, going through all the different sports that they did. We let them experience all these different experiences, not traveling and things like that. We didn't do a whole lot of that, but everything they wanted to do, we did. We let them do as far as sports go and music lessons and things like that. So we let them try different things and figure out what they liked and what they didn't like. We just were, I think, extremely supportive in who they were as people. And so I think that's what kind of set them on their path to doing things that are amazing.

So if you don't mind, I mean, we might have to just have you come back to talk about your work because I think there are so many people that are parenting, and I'm new to parenting, right? I'm only married a year July 4th, and I am the bonus mom for 2 children and 2 grandchildren, and I'm like, how did parents do this? Oh my God, it's the scariest thing in the world. Um, let's talk about Natalie first.

Okay.

How did you feel about her going off to some godforsaken place in the universe and living by herself with a— how old is she?

She is 20— oh gosh, 23 now. She— so she was 20, um, 21, 22 when she did this? 21, 21 when she graduated from college.

How?

I guess she was just turning 22.

How do you have the courage as parents to let your child go and live in the wilderness by herself, not knowing anyone? I mean, we put on the news now and everything is so scary.

Yeah.

Uh, what— how do you have the courage to do that?

Well, um, when she did the hiking, she was with a friend and her boyfriend was with them too. So there were 3 of them, which made me feel a little bit better. This may be sexist to say, but it made me feel better that there was a guy with them. But not, not so much that he'd be the protector and all that stuff, but that, that he— that, that the perception of other people wouldn't be that, oh, there's these 2 women by themselves, you know. So it was more about— no offense to him, he's a wonderful guy and I'm sure would do everything he could to protect people— but, um, but it wasn't about that so much as it was about the perception of other people.

Sure.

Feel better. So, um, um, so the, the hiking in that part, I was very nervous. I mean, and at first, um, she and her friend did this thing called, um, it's called WWOOFing. It stands for Worldwide Organic Something Farming. It's like, um, sustainable farms. And it's— I think of it as like an Airbnb type thing. You go and you work on this farm for free. They don't pay you, but they give you experience and they give you, um, room and board. And so they—

Continue to live off the land?

Yeah, not so much live off the land, but help with sustainable farming. So for example, the person that they went to live with was doing a community garden in one area of Colorado and a hemp farm in another area of Colorado. And so, but you, you get involved in this organization and you get to pick where you want to go, and then they get to pick you and that kind of thing. The reason I say it's like Airbnb is that you can give reviews of your of your, like, sponsor. And if they're terrible, then nobody's going to want to go work for them. Um, if you're terrible, nobody's going to want you to come work for them. So, so I think that in that sense, it's like Airbnb. Um, it's not like staying in an Airbnb. So they basically lived at this guy's farm. Um, they were allowed to live in his house, but they chose to instead, like, stay in their tent. And, um, they worked on this farm for 3 weeks, and you, you enter a contract— into a contract with the person and all this stuff. And so, um, so it's legitimate. But that part I was terrified of because she's, you know, stay— she, she was, um, went to school at Virginia Tech, 2 hours away from us. We got to see her enough. She lived in a house with 4— 3 other girls. Um, and, um, that— but then when she told us she was going to do that, I was very nervous. Um, my husband and I like Googled the guy that was— that she was going to stay with because we got his name. Um, just, you know, we did all this like research on him.

Yeah.

Um, there were, there were some things of concern, but not of great concern. Um, And so we, I guess, you know, we felt like we had no choice. By that time, she'd been sort of living on her own in college, but it's still living away from us. And for us to come back and say, no, you can't do this, or no, you can't do that, I think would have been not the right thing to do. So we just Kind of let her, let her go, um, with equipped, I should say. My husband bought her a taser and a stun gun.

I love it. Did you take karate lessons before?

Yeah, I, I put my foot down on the gun itself, but, um, but he bought her a taser and a stun gun and taught her to use them. Um, I think she still has them, so I hope she does.

Good for him.

So that, um, once she was gone there, and I have more stories about that, but like just being worried, like if she went camping for a period of 3 days and I couldn't get in touch with her, and I made up in my mind that she was, she was gone, she disappeared.

Yes. You know, like— Can't help it today with today's news.

Yeah. Oh, I know. I contacted the other Girl, her friend's mom, and she was like, "No, I haven't heard from them either." I contacted her friends. Have you heard from them? You know, I was convinced that they had been kidnapped. And yes, and so finally, after three days, she was like, "We were just camping and I didn't have any cell service." And so, so the more chill out, mom. So, so that that we just had no choice. I feel like I mean we did. did our best to do to equip them to be safe. And, you know, um, and so it, it definitely was not an easy thing, but, um—

So incredibly hard. You just, as a parent, you're torn between yes and no like never before.

Yeah. And then after she did that, um, she went out to Park City, Utah to live for a few months and work at Park City Mountain Resort. And then she's working there again this, this winter. But then during the summer, she did these wildlife internships. And I think by then she had been kind of on her own and doing her own thing that you just, you just kind of build up a trust that they're capable and that they You know, we'll use good judgment. And, um, you know, I can't say that I don't worry every single day. And whenever I get a phone call and I see that it's one of my daughters, I always hold my breath, um, to like, is everything okay kind of thing. And usually, I mean, almost always it is, but, um, but it's always a feeling I get. My husband says the same thing. So— Wow.

Men go through this too. Interesting.

Yeah, he does. I don't know that, that all men do, but he definitely does. Um, and then Emily, um, she went to Virginia Military Institute. And, um, I don't know how much you know about Virginia Military Institute, VMI as we call it, um, or your listeners or viewers, um, but it's a very harsh environment, um, and great education. This is a college, a Um, military college.

But why did she decide to go to a military college?

She got a soccer scholarship. So she, she was a goalie, which, you know, is also a brave thing. And as a mom, it's very hard to be the parent of a goalie. Your kid is like putting them, their bodies in front of a kicking foot, like on a daily basis.

And yeah.

Um, so that's terrifying. But she got a soccer scholarship. It's a Division 1 school, so she got an athletic scholarship. And she went there. And, you know, to me, that was inspiring just to see her kind of go into that environment. And then from there, she went to grad school, got her master's in clinical psychology. And then decided she wanted to join the Army. So, um, so it's, it's now, you know, now she's an Apache pilot. So, so, uh, she's done a lot of things. I mean, she's 26 years old and already has her master's degree and, um, is well on her— she's a first lieutenant in the Army and just doing amazing things. So.

Okay, now, so, and she is part of the LGBTQ community?

Yep.

And how did you feel about that?

Um, um, I'm fine. Uh, you mean like when we first told us, or when she first—

Yeah, I mean, did you feel that that took courageousness on her behalf?

Oh, absolutely. I, I think Um, I'm sure she was worried, but I don't— I'd have to ask her. I— and I think we have had a conversation before about how she felt about telling us. Um, I don't think she was super worried about telling us because we've always, always been very supportive. I wasn't surprised really, you know, like I, I, um, but—

What do you mean you weren't surprised?

I just, I just, it's not that I— she, as far as I know, she didn't have other relationships with women, um, during high school or anything like that. She went to prom with guys, you know, like, just, um, um, so it wasn't that so much. It was just, I don't know, it's just one of those things that you like think about, um, or some parents may think about it, and it's just something that you're like, oh yeah, it doesn't really surprise me. I can't really put my finger on it. Um, she was a tomboy when she was little, but that's not really something that's— to me, that's not an indication of something, anything, you know, as far as that goes. But, um, but I, um, but I, I— so I just wasn't— I can't really explain. I just wasn't really surprised. Um, but also just not Shocked by it. And, and even if I was, I think one of the best pieces of parenting advice I could ever give anybody, and that is that I actually read it in a book, was, um, is not to be— not overreact to anything that you're being told. So anything from when they're little to when they're, you know, adult, adult children, adult kids or whatever. Um, don't— even if you are surprised, don't let them know it. So like, take everything with— like, they're not going to tell you things if every time they tell you something you act shocked or dismayed or upset or anything. And so you just kind of Learn to accept things and, and learn the things that you're going— they're going to say, um, and just handle them in a calm way. And, and I think that's the best advice I ever got from a book, um, was like, don't let you— don't let things your kids tell you shock you, um, or don't let them know that you are surprised by it. So I think that was one thing, um, that when she told me, I, I was like, Mm-hmm. Um, uh, she told me first. She didn't tell my husband and I together. Um, and—

I was gonna ask you that.

Yeah. And, um, she— and I said— I don't remember exactly what I said. I, I know that our conversation was like, okay, you know, like, that doesn't change the way I feel about you. You know, I love you more than anything in the world. You know, like Just, I'm glad you told me. You know, just I know that our conversation was like that. It was not a tragedy or anything that you know, like we had to talk to her about. You know, feel like we just I just we just wanted to know that she we were on her team. That um. And no matter what. So that was— and that there was nothing wrong with it. Like, that's— we are accepting of that, and we've always been. I remember one time my husband was just— we were at the dinner table and he was like, um, and they were little, they were probably in elementary school at this time, but my husband was like something about when you bring a guy home, or a girl, you know, like, so—

I love it.

They were young then, you know, so he was always just like making it seem like it's just everything, you know, like it doesn't matter.

And, and did she leave it up to you to tell your husband, or did she tell him?

I think she asked me to tell him, um, but it wasn't because she was scared of his reaction. I think she just didn't— she's, she's sort of a reserved person, and I think she didn't really want him to, to ask too many questions. Yeah. Or, yeah, like, I think she just felt like, oh, I, I did it once today already.

I—

you can, you can always—

you can.

Um, and she wasn't in a relationship at that time, so it was, it was kind of like, you know, she wasn't.

So what do you think prompted her to tell you?

Um, I think she wanted to pursue a relationship. She didn't have anybody in mind. She just wanted to. And I think she wanted— she just didn't want to be secretive about it.

So, um, she's got guts. I love her.

Yeah. Oh, I do too. And you will love meeting her. Hopefully you'll be— you'll get to meet her.

I would love to interview her. I mean, what a story. Yeah. Oh my God. From soccer to, um, a clinical side to The, the Air Force. I'm like, wow.

Yeah, Army. She wouldn't let you— she won't—

Oh, Army.

Yeah, she wouldn't want you to say Air Force, although her, uh, fiancé is Air Force, so, so they give each other a hard time about that all the time.

So I can see the football fights. That's right. Yeah, well, I'm Army too, so—

Well, my husband's Air Force, so—

Yeah, okay.

Well, if anything, that was the hardest thing for him to accept, was that she was going into the Army.

I love it. Okay, um, clearly you are parents with courage and conviction. Conviction and, um, just a true dedication to loving your children and—

Yeah.

Bringing up 2 strong women we so need in this day and age. Um, And I, you know, I appreciate your sharing your secrets with us because there are many out there that say, how do we, how do we support our children? Because the choices are scary out there.

Mm-hmm.

This young woman who was killed working in the furniture store, which was— she was filling in for a friend. How do you, with all that kind of thing going on, how do you have the courage to let go of your children and let them fly?

Right. It's hard. It's definitely hard. The good thing is that they— and I remember when they were little, I couldn't even imagine. And so I have friends that have little children and they say, how do you even let them go drive? And I was like, well, because the good thing is that There's a long period of growing between the time that you are thinking about that and then it's actually happening. So of course you can't imagine them going off to college when they're still so little, and you can't imagine being able to let them go. But by the time you get to that point, they've already been through high school and there's, you know, they spend less and less time at home. They've already, you know, been away on— You know, overnight field trips or camp or whatever. So you get these little— you get practice. You get practice.

Yeah. You know, I think that, well, maybe because I'm a new parent, the hardest part for me is figuring out when do you say, this is right for you. Come on, you know, pay attention. Or they say— so I'll give you a really good example. I was invited to Renaissance Weekend. And of course, you can bring family members. And I said to my husband, we need to invite your daughter because she's a lawyer. And her reaction was, no, I usually go out with my friends. And I'm like, what? What are you talking about? And I had to like—

Yeah.

Okay. That's how you see your career progressing. That's okay with me. Right. But meantime, you want to say, what the heck? Yeah. No.

Well, I tell you that the thing that takes the most courage as a parent is not being a parent of little kids and them going off to kindergarten or even college, but it's when they make big life decisions. And you may know that it's not right, but you can't tell them not to, because if it's wrong for them, they have to learn that. And that's the hardest thing. Yeah, so hard.

And I— for me, walking in the door with adult children— oh yeah, I agree with you. Because when, when she said no to this, I'm thinking, how in the world?

How?

Is it possible to just flip it off? I don't get it.

Yeah, well, you didn't— like I said, you know, I wasn't through the growing stages, right? You didn't get that practice. Like I said, you know, you got thrown into it, you know, fully expecting, you know, the experience right away.

So, so yeah, I mean So I think that's a book in the making for you.

It might be. It might be. Yeah, if I just had the time to make it.

So let's talk about— we have a good half an hour left. I want to talk about your work.

Yes.

You walked into, as you started to tell us, a financial kind of environment role.

Yeah.

And ended up really making radical change, I want to say, in your organization.

Yeah.

I like that. Yeah.

Well, I would— I don't— I'm not trying to be super modest about it or underestimate or anything like that, but it wasn't me alone. So let me just Describe to you the situation that's happening. So I'm a training director. I'm still a training director. We're implementing a new project now. So twenty years after I started, we're doing the same thing again. So I'm still working in that environment and doing doing that too. But a couple of I want to say two years ago, three years ago. This year it'll be three years ago. So it was twenty. the university started an initiative called Inclusive Excellence where— and this is not just the University of Virginia, but it's organizations across the country and not just higher ed either, other organizations are doing it too. But there's these dimensions of inclusive excellence that we want to work toward. When we say inclusive excellence, we're really basically talking about diversity, equity and inclusion. Across the university, there were lots of different people that were asked to do this for their particular unit and be the point of contact on this larger initiative. I was asked to do that for my group at UVA. in my division, that's finance. And at the time, there was more— there were more than 200 people in our division. And, um, so I gladly accepted. I was excited about it. Um, you know, a little naive maybe about what I was getting into. Um, and, and certainly, um, naive because at that time, this is pre-George Floyd. When we first got into it, we looked at climate survey results and things like that. Within our unit, the climate was, oh yeah, it's fine. Everybody's happy. We got really good results from the survey across— people were to identify themselves and according to their race. And so the only thing that was a little bit off was that our Black colleagues said that we didn't have a mentoring program that was there for them and things like that. And so I was like, okay, well, we need a mentoring program and we need a couple of other things. So we had like 3 different things we were going to work on. Nothing major. And for the most part, we're doing a really good job. And so that happened. And then, so that started. And then in 2020, 2020 happened. So, so the pandemic happened and then George Floyd happened and that changed everything for us at that time. And so we decided to expand our group. beginning, we— it was me and like 3 other people. But we expanded our group to include about 11 people who were really interested in helping us. We immediately began having some discussions around race, which had never been done before in our environment. So people don't talk about those things at work. And so it was kind of like, people didn't pay any attention to it. It would too often get political, and so we didn't want to talk about politics at work and things like that. But we started having these biweekly discussions that were very pointed and honest, open dialogue about race and racial issues in the world, not, or, you know, in the country, in our workplace, and in, you know, just our communities.

Excuse me.

And we, we talked about just general topics or topics of interest, and we're now going into— so this started in June of 2020, so this year it'll be 2 years that we've been doing these. And with the exception of a couple times where we only had one a month, like December, because people were leaving for holidays and things like that, we've done these discussions every other week. And they're usually about an hour and a half long. We get anywhere from— on the small end, it might be 9 people to 50 people on these Zoom calls.

Wow.

And we have regulars, you know, that are there every time, um, and just have really good conversations about things. And it lets people vent and share stories and experiences. It helps a lot of people learn about things that they've never been able to, um, or never talked about before in their lives. Um, and I think it's great for everybody that has been participating. That's one thing we did.

Well, one second, Patty. In these conversations, I noticed that you mentioned you talk about things in the world. Are you also talking about things that are going on in the university, in various departments, or is it still out in the world?

We talk about some things that are happening at the university. But it's usually current event kinds of things. And so we would talk about critical race theory and what that really is different than what people are told that it is. That we've talked about police brutality. We've talked about— we've done— we did an entire 3-month, every other week discussion about the book Caste. which I know when we were preparing for this session, one of the things that your assistant asked me was what would be a book I would recommend. And that book I would recommend to anybody who is interested in learning about, about race in America and not just systemic racism, but just experiences and how people— what it has been really like for people throughout the history of our country. And so I recommend that book highly. I highly recommend that book.

Thank you.

Caste by Isabel Wilkerson. And so we did a 3-month discussion of that book. We did a discussion about the 1619 podcast. Sometimes we have fun discussions. We had a discussion one time about the show Lovecraft Country. And so it was— they're always— they're often emotional. And— but I've made like really wonderful friends and colleagues, um, and gotten to know people throughout these discussions really well. So I've moderated every one of those discussions, um, and, um, it's similar to this, CB. It's like we get on— we don't record them, but we get on, um, call and people will share their experiences and, um, talk about things for a couple hours.

So, um, And have you found people have gotten closer together?

I think the people that participate in those have gotten closer together. So in fact, like when we came back from the pandemic or when we started going back into the office more, you'd see people that you'd been on these calls with and be like, can we hug each other? You know, because, you know, like, because we've just developed these really close connections with folks. But so that's one thing we did. Other things we did as a group were we developed what we called an inclusive excellence plan, which was putting into place for our division. So this is just within finance at UVA, which is again about— it's not 200 people now because we've had some changes in organizational structure, but it's about 150 people. This plan outlines 33 action items that we are putting in place to promote or to strategies around diversity and equity inclusion that we're putting in place over the next 3 years or we're working toward. over the next 3 years. Things from as simple as putting information, resources, and tools on our website to doing salary equity studies, to increasing our recruitment and retention of Black and brown colleagues. To all of that, like big things and small things.

You know, here's what I find. Sorry to interrupt you. I find this is really pivotal, pivotal, pivotal in the fact that when you first asked the group what they felt was missing, there was very little that they felt was missing. And now that you've had these, I'm going to call them earnest Discussions, you now have 33 action items.

Yeah.

What do you account for that?

Learning and knowledge and people being more open to sharing. I think initially the question is like, what do you need? Is it— how is everything? Oh, everything's fine. People feeling like Yeah, I'm ignored all the time at meetings, but that's just not a big deal. It's whatever. It's fine. Now saying it's not right that I'm ignored at meetings. It makes me feel bad. It makes me want to quit. It makes me want to leave and go somewhere where I'm valued. So I think that's part of it. It's just an awareness.

Yeah. Because it's that old saying that You don't want to— you don't know what you don't know until you find out what you don't know.

Yeah, I almost said that. I almost said, well, they didn't know what they didn't know.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, and things were kept so confidential. There was something I read recently, I'll give you an example, and I can't— I don't know if I read it or my husband tell me about it, that there is some new law that says when jobs are posted, they have to post the salary.

Mm-hmm.

In my day, you were considered a rat, you were considered uncouth if you dared to discuss salary.

Mm-hmm.

And that was the way that they separated different groups.

Yeah.

Because you did not know that you were making the very low end of the totem pole, Where others out there were like sky high.

Yeah.

That if you looked at that low end of the totem pole, you're probably going to see people of color.

Yeah. Well, along those same lines, I think companies are getting away from and should get away from asking when they're recruiting a new person, asking for their salary requirements. Because that is another place that's been inequitable for a very long period of time. And so if you ask a Black person what their salary requirement is, they probably will, will say it's something lower than what a white person would say for the same job.

Beyond a shadow of a doubt.

And it's— so it's unfair. It's really an unfair Or even to ask what your current salary is so that they can try to lowball you for a particular job.

Because you know that the history of the person is going to be in the lowest salary range.

Right. And so it's just another one of those things that maybe people don't really think about. But when you start to think about the impact that that has, that having that low salary, lower than average salary or lower than your white colleague salary. I'm not saying it always is this case, of course it's not. But when historically it is, then— but it's something you don't really think about, but it still impacts what you're currently going to get. That is Is something I think companies are starting to, or at least they were starting to get away from doing. Um, another thing is actually posting the salary range on jobs is another that, you know, I think is something that companies should do so that people know, um, when they're going into what the expected salary range is so that they can't lowball you.

You know, I'm surprised it's taken that long because government jobs, Must post the salary category.

Yeah.

I'll tell you another one that's really kind of interesting and sad. I've recently had a couple of private clients who were people of color who had gone in for interviews, quite a few, and have accepted a job based upon the interviews and, you know, the offer discussion, et cetera, et cetera. When they get the actual offer from HR, completely different than the discussion.

Yeah.

And I don't know if this is happening with white people that are out there, but I'm talking about fairly senior people who are having this problem, and I'm like, This is interesting as I'm starting to watch this trend. It's— so here's where it could be going, is that companies are feeling pressured to bring in people of color, so they're willing to give the house.

Mm-hmm.

But that discussion is not communicated— benefit of the doubt— through HR who says it's a standard.

Mm-hmm.

And then the person of color says, well, I don't know how to respond to this.

Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm.

Um, was this sleight of hand? Was it intentional or not intentional? Should I be— it's that old mindset— should I just be glad I have an offer? Which is higher than where I am now.

Right.

It's this whole psychological discourse that's going on.

Oh, sure. The people— white people don't have that discourse in there. I mean, women might. Some women might.

Yeah.

But so white women might. But I don't think white men have that discourse in their heads.

This is scary.

Yes.

Scary. You know, it's almost like, um, you figure out one way to close the door on discrimination, equity, inequality, and somehow another door opens.

Yeah.

And then it just sort of cracks, and then it's, oh well, that works, let's just do more of that.

Yeah. Well, well, I'll tell you what, um, is is happening and is frightening is this whole backlash. So I was listening to a podcast, This American Life, and it's the, the podcast I was listening to is actually what we're going to be talking about at our, our call, our discussion today, later today. And the podcast is called Talking While Black, and basically a story they're, they're covering 2 different stories of from 2020 to when George Floyd happened and there was all that Black Lives Matter and companies and people were posting on Facebook about how they support Black people and all this stuff, to 2021 when legislatures are putting in laws that ban books, um, that are written by Black authors. that if they even mention the fact that they're— that, that it's about a Black person or whatever, then obviously they're talking about critical race theory, or so it's not going to be allowed in the school or whatever. So in a period of a year, we've gone from one extreme to now another, and this whole idea of backlash Is, is it's, it's almost like whiplash, actually.

Yes.

And so I think that when we talked about courage, I think that it's going to take a lot of courage for people to keep going. And it's really, really hard to sometimes to keep, to want to keep going. I mean, I turn on the news and it just And my husband will tell you I'm a news junkie, so I watch news a lot. Um, and I was a government politics major, so I'm really, really interested in politics.

Um, I was gonna say very freshly, boy, you're screwed up.

I know, I know, I know, I know. It's, it's a sickness. It really is. But, um, but I— and I work as an election official, and so I'm really involved in the process and everything, but I— it's infuriating. And so it does take— it's going to take courage, I should say, because I haven't given up yet. But to keep going, to know that you're facing this, like, outrage from white people, you know, let's be honest, it's white for the most part. I mean, sure, there's some Black people that are hopping on that train too, but But this outrage over bringing up anything that might make them feel bad, it's insane.

Well, how about this? First of all, 2 things. First, there was the government ruling that came down during Trump's administration that You can't do any work as a DEI expert for a government organization.

Yeah. Right.

Then too, if you compare what's happening in the schools— this is going to be a wild connection— but children are being brought up that everything they do is perfect. Let's give you an award for this. Let's give me an award for that. You know, there's no, there's no leaving behind, you know. So the same thing is happening in our world today where, you know, everything that you do has to have an award shingle next to it.

Yeah.

And so that prevents you from really feeling and seeing what's going on because you can do no wrong.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

We are seeing that in this— in the whole social justice realm. One of the good things I have seen come out is that we are seeing and understanding more about racial issues worldwide. We always thought it was the same here, was the same as other places. And a place like Canada, we thought, oh, you're exempt from this. Yeah, but not so much, right? It may not be in the skin color, but it's there. And we have to learn as a leading nation, how to recognize it and communicate it in a more global sense.

Definitely.

Which is especially for organizations that are global and universities with global students so that they can have an appreciation between what's going on here and what goes on in their country. And I love— if you haven't seen my interview of Ernie and Cheryl, The book Inclusive Leadership, Global Impact.

Oh, I like that. Yeah.

Yeah. Where he talks about the differences in the nations and what's facing what and the relationship between them.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So we're almost out of time. And I want to say to you that while you won't accept the badge of courage for what you're doing at the university, I'm going to say, And you're not accepting it only because you're giving, as the children say, face time to your colleagues. There's always a leader. It may not be the official leader, or it may be the official leader.

Mm-hmm.

There's always somebody that is so heart-involved and mind-involved that leads the charge so that other people want to support that direction, and that is you.

Oh, thank you. Thank you.

So, like your children have accepted their power, I'm offering you the mantle to accept your power and your influence. Thank you.

My husband tells me that all the time too.

He's a big cheerleader.

Um, so it's great to get support from folks around you.

Absolutely. You know, and I'm all about supporting, uh, women in what they're doing. In fact, I have a group called the Women's Power Pack, and, um, I just launched it, and it's amazing. It's for women who— it's for successful women.

Mm-hmm.

And the rule is the first minute you could talk about personal life, other than that, zip it. About personal life and move on to business.

Oh, sorry, I broke your rule.

No, no, you didn't. I encourage you to break the rule. I'm talking about the WPP group, um, and I designed it that way because I think that we spend a lot of time in the caring about others and not enough time caring about us. In your case, you've done an amazing, amazing job in caring about Mm-hmm. And I just want to support you in caring about you and what you have done.

Thank you. I really appreciate that. Yeah.

So, audience, you know, I hate to say goodbye. Audience, colleagues, I'm seeing a lot of foreign language people who are writing in or filming from YouTube. And I hope that this has been of value to you and your country, um, to know what needs to be done in organizations and to just do it. So with that, I'm gonna say goodbye to Patty, and I'm hoping that you're gonna join me on Tuesday because again, we have a kick-ass guest, and you know that's my favorite phrase. Because it's the people that are having the courage to do something one way or the other. So see you next week. Hey, have a great weekend. Bye now. Patty, thank you so much.

Thank you.