Challenges of the C-Suite with Dr. Jonathan Kirschner, Episode 25

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of CB Bowman Live Challenges of the C-Suite. I'm so happy you're here today. I'm so happy I'm here today. And you know, we have as always a special guest. So, but let me tell you a secret about this special guest. You're gonna laugh. We have known each other for— oh, I can't— you know, I'm dyslexic, I can't do the math, but I think it's 2013.

That sounds about right.

Yeah. And we have never met. Thank you. And we run in the same circles.

What?

I mean, you know, well, you know, that happens all the time. But thanks to Zoom, now we can actually see and talk to people that we've previously only spoken to on the phone. So today, I'm really, really honored to have my friend Jonathan on the show. And so listen, this is what Jonathan does. He is The CEO of AIR Consulting. Now, I don't know if anybody out there doesn't know AIR. I mean, come on, it's like not knowing CB Bowman, right? So, AIR Consulting is a phenomenal company for Executive Coaches, and they do all kinds of specialist things. They you know they have a great assessment. They have incredible staff, and I'll just mention that several of their members are members of the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches. So you know those are the really Special coaches, right? Because, you know, in order to become a member, you have to be a master-level coach. So his company is no joke. So we are really excited to have him on. And I just found out today, this man has 4 children in this day and age, and a new one was just born.

That's right.

What? And he is a hockey player. I mean, where do we hear that in the coaching field? So, oh my God, he's a power pack, right? So with that, I am going to introduce Jonathan. Dr. Jonathan, how are you?

Um, that was, that was the best introduction I've ever had, CB. Thank you. I'm, I'm, um, I'm doing well, and, um, in the last, uh, 3 minutes and 9 seconds, I've had a hockey stick, um, you know, in terms of, uh, from well to just really, really excited and happy to be here on your show. And, uh, thank you for having me.

Oh, it's my pleasure. Hey, Tell the audience a little bit about yourself, you know, your background, and before you even opened air.

Sure. Well, where do we start?

Audience, look at that. Well.

Yeah, I'll start with, there's 2 things that really activate me as an individual. Well, I should say 3 things. One is just my love of people and really helping others. Secondarily, I really like problem solving, and I've known that about myself from a young age, and I'm a very integrative thinker and like to solve problems using that. capacity. And, you know, the third thing about me is I really like to innovate and think outside of the box. So, you know, maybe that's the oppositional side of me. But if you say, go that way, I'm going to be the one that says, hmm, you sure about that? Maybe there's a different way, or maybe we go a little bit that way, but then this way. So, you know, when those 3 things converge, executive coaching is really like the sweet spot of convergence of my penchant for problem solving, my strong passion for people and helping others. And also, you know, my— I get very energized by exercising my creativity and innovation. And, and so the journey really began when I decided I wanted to be a clinical psychologist, which also hits on, on those areas as well. Though what I'm doing right now, I mean, I'm, I'm truly in the sweet spot. But at that time, really gravitated towards clinical psychology and studied psychology in undergrad and came out to Philadelphia from NYU, where I studied to pursue my doctorate at Widener University and learned all the orientations and just loved everything from the early psychoanalytic to modern psychodynamic to CBT to behavioral psychotherapy. Every flavor, right? There were 31 flavors.

As a clinical psych in the coaching field, were you part of Division 13?

I was part of Division 13. I have been less active, let's say. I'm sorry, I'm confusing. Division 39 is the— it's Division 13 for sure. Yeah, the Society of Consulting Psychology. I'm still, still very active in that.

Did you know Dr. Bob Lee?

Um, I did for, for, yeah, a brief period, about 2 years, um, before he, he passed. Yeah.

He was my mentor.

Wow. Yeah, he's a tremendous, a tremendous person.

A real— Hey, you know, the audience knows that what happens— this is a real live broadcast— what happens is I get calls during the broadcast. So they just bear with me. And I try to hide my phone, but it doesn't really work even when I turn it off because this iPhone 12S is smarter than me. So no worries. And when I hide it, it comes through on my computer anyway.

But no worries at all. No worries. So anyway, just take a call, CB.

Yeah, so you didn't know Bob Lee before he passed?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was. And he was a, you know, real pioneer in consulting psychology, obviously, and a very prominent member in the Division 13 Society of Consulting Psychology. So yeah.

Well, I have a fun story to share with you about him. So I met him, oh gosh, I was a kid just starting out in the coaching space and I met him at some conference and I had heard his name and I said, I walked over to him and I said, Mr. Lee, I'd like to get to know you. I'm new. And it took all the guts that I had to walk up to him.

Mm-hmm.

And he looked at me and he said, well, just put something on my calendar. Like, and I'm like, oh, okay, okay. So then I had a meeting on his calendar. We went out to dinner and I thought, here I am, this young hot woman going out with this older man. And I thought, I don't know if this is kosher, right? During dinner, we're talking and he looks at me, he says, what do you want to do with your life? I'm like, um, uh, what do you mean? You know? And he said, what do you want to do? And I said, I want to be rich. I want to be successful. And I want to own a house. And he looked at me and he said, well, that'll never happen. Now, the audience will have to—

Wow.

He had an incredible personality, right? So I looked at him and I thought, who the heck is this man telling me this? Right? So then we lost touch. And many years later, I was published in The Wall Street Journal and I was writing and I was doing this and that. And I get this card in the mail from him, and he just wrote, I'm watching you. I'm like, okay, what does that mean? So then I, I just continued, uh, on my little journey, um, purchased my first house, um, and He called me up, and at this point I think I had ACEC, and he said, so you've got this association, hmm? And I said, yes. He said, it's for coaches, huh? And I said, yeah. He said, all right, keep going. A couple of years later— this is about 2 years before he passed. Called me up and he said, I've decided to become a member of your association. And I like dropped the mic. I said, well, you'll have to pay, Bob.

You didn't give him the friends and family?

No, I didn't. I didn't. And he started laughing so hard and he said, I knew you were going to be a tough broad. I said, yeah, but you told me I wasn't gonna have any of this. He said, if I told you that you would, you wouldn't have worked as hard to get what you've got.

Wow.

And I said, okay, well, your bill is this. And do you know, he sent me a check. And within a year, he had passed. And he was just Amazing. Yeah, I would call him in between, you know, to ask him a question, um, as a mentor, and he was always there. Always.

It's a beautiful story, CB. I, you know, what occurs to me when you share that— I mean, there's a lot that occurs to me, but I remember, you know, when I was a rookie and the first conference I ever went to and looking up at, you know, the gods of our field.

Yes.

Saying, oh my God, like, if I approach him, what should I say and how should I say it? And oh my, you know, before I've— after I've, you know, spun out in my head, the person's already gone, right? And I'm already preparing for, you know, day 2. And, you know, all of that fear and hesitation. I find that you just got to blast through that and go straight to it. Because as you experienced with, with Bob Lee, he's like, sure, like, let's connect. Let's go out to dinner.

Yes.

You know, I had, I had a similar instance going back to when I— so back when I decided I wanted to pursue clinical psychology, At Widener University, it's a PsyD program. So PsyD programs are more clinically oriented than research oriented. So you get started either after your first year or in the case of Widener, on day one, you're out there seeing patients. And I, you know, I didn't have a clue what I was doing. I mean, I loved the field and I, and I thought it was the perfect fit. So I thought, here, here, this is what I should do. I should really experience what it's like, at the very least, to be a patient.

And no, no.

So I, so I got in touch with Irving Yalom, who is, you know, the real pioneer in existential psychology and group therapy. And, you know, I had all of his books. I was just totally into this guy. And I said, hey, I've— I'm going to grad school. I've got no money, but I really want to experience what it's like to be a patient. I'm sure I've got some issues. My wife and I are coming to San Francisco for— we were going for our honeymoon to do the West Coast, and he agreed to see me at a discounted rate. And we got into it. But, you know, it took— and I'm so, you know, I'm very, you know, in retrospect, very proud of myself that I mustered up the courage to call the, like, you know, I mean, in my opinion, the best psychotherapist you know, in the US at least, to get it, to get a session. And what I learned from that session, I wrote down every word afterwards. But, you know, I would encourage any— when I mentor, you know, people and I network with early career psychologists or even folks who are still in grad school, my advice is like, you know, go big or go home. Like, that's right, you've got nothing to lose. And by the way, you know, people like CB, you know, myself maybe, you know, people that, that you might perceive as being hard to access, um, we love it. Like, we, we want to support and help and guide and mentor.

Yeah.

And so, um, I love that story. And, and of course, Bob Lee is, you know, he's a legend.

I miss him so much. And, but, you know, it doesn't always work out. I remember there's somebody that we both know, I won't name, who I approached when I was a rookie, and I said, would you mentor me? And his answer was, no, I don't have the time. And then 2019, I was in London with Marshall Goldsmith, Uh, to accept his, uh, Top 50 Leading Coaches Award.

Congratulations.

Thank you. And he was there also accepting an award.

I love that. Hey, what's up? How you doing? I got one of these too.

That's great. There was a cocktail party after and, um, He walked over to me and he said— and my, my, we weren't married then, my soon-to-be husband was with me— and he said to me, hey, I've heard wonderful things about your conference. Some of my coaches have been there. Um, I hear you're doing incredible work. I would love to come to one of your conferences. And I looked at him and I said, do you remember when I called you to mentor me, to be, uh, to help me get started. He said, uh, not exactly. My husband-to-be said, clearly she didn't need you. And I thought, that's the man I'm marrying.

Nice. Now there's got to be a special rate for that person. You know, CB, I mean, it's, it's interesting, like there's You know, I have the same experience. I've had, you know, you make yourself vulnerable.

Yes.

And, you know, hopefully 51% or more of the time, you know, you get a favorable answer, but sometimes you don't, right? And it stings. And sometimes that just inhibits somebody forever, by the way. Like, okay, that was a mistake. I'm never gonna do that again. Like, let me take take small risk, not big risk. And, um, but what I've, what I've found in my own personal experience is that when that kind of stuff happens to me, after I get over the initial, you know, sting, yes, it's like, okay, now I know what I don't want to be like.

Yes. And, you know, it also, I think for you, as I, I know it's for me, it becomes a driver. It's like, oh yeah, you said no to me? Okay, watch me.

Yeah.

It's so bizarre. But, you know, uh, I feel bad, and I don't know psychologically, uh, the people that get stopped by the nose and the people that are driven by the nose. It's what makes them that way. And I'm sure, you know, so this is called Challenges of the C-Suite. I'm sure that the clients that you've coached, there's been a fair number of CEOs who have had the response of no. What gets them through that is the question. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I think the easy answer would be, you know, resilience, right? Somehow the, uh, the individuals who are able to persist in the face of no and, and constant no and, and constant rejection, um, somehow they've, they've mustered the resilience to, to persevere until they get to a yes.

Right.

But I think, you know, sheer resilience alone is— I mean, you could have a lot of resilience and just keep going straight at a wall and then back up once you've, you know, healed and then go straight into the wall again. So, you know, there's definitely an element of strategic thinking that needs to be coupled with with that resilience. And strategic thinking absolutely requires a learning mindset. So, you know, if you're not learning from the failures and the mistakes, and oftentimes, and it's always in retrospect because in the moment the mistakes feel terrible.

Yes.

But, you know, oftentimes those mistakes and those failures are the most important experiences because inherent in those mistakes are learnings that can be extracted. And those learnings are then used as information when you go to strategize, right?

Yeah.

So, you know, I think the bottom line, it's really that strategic thinking with the resilience that with an underlying learning mindset that really separates the successful CEOs and C-suite leaders from those that flame out.

I want to examine this word resilience because we're hearing it ad nauseam. Do we really know what it means? You're a great person to ask the question because you work Your whole body of work is the C-suite, but more so, you have 4 children. How are you teaching them to be resilient? What does that really mean? Because that information helps coaches teach this to see other CEOs and to employees that need To survive the CEO, which may not be particularly user-friendly. Yeah. So what does it mean? Let's start with it. And then how do you teach it?

I mean, resilience is— it is somewhat of a broad word, right? And it— if the strength of my arm lies in the the fitness of my bicep, and exercising that bicep makes my arm stronger, then, you know, resilience represents the muscle of the whole, you know, human. And, you know, this is all my opinion, right?

Mm-hmm.

It describes the fitness of, of the human, you know, main not exclusively physically, but certainly a strong component would be physical, but especially psychological, right, and mindset. So, you know, if resilience represents the sort of total muscle of a person, Mm-hmm. I think it is a combination of things that I would consider as core. So there's like core resilience, and then there's like the more periphery, also very important, um, the, the shell or the outer layer of resilience that we're exercising on a day-to-day basis. So at the core level, I'm glad— I mean, you mentioned my, my children. I mean, that— because that's where the core gets built, right?

Yeah.

Right. And if you had a bad childhood, you could always, you know, I was gonna say patch it up. It's more than patch it up because there's structural— you got to get in there. It's the core, right? But you can, you know, people— I'm a firm believer that people, people can change. People can change for the better, right? No matter how old you are. And that's a phenomenon that we know with neuroscience, with plasticity, you know, neuroplasticity. The brain is designed to, in many cases, recover and to adapt. But at that core level, right, that's about the quality of relationships and what does a relationship mean. And going back to the attachment theorists in psychology and the literature, you know, how— at a fundamental level, can I trust somebody? Can I rely on somebody? Um, and my relationship and orientation to people, um, would reside at that, at that core, um, as would be like principles, you know, morals, principles. Um, these are the kinds of things that when life gets messy, you can fall back and think, all right, what did I learn? What are the principles that can help kind guide the decision point that I'm gonna make. And that stuff gets learned early at an early age. And so as a parent, right, if I'm always, you know, I mean, one of the, you know, I guess tragedies of modern-day parenting is, you know, arguably, and I don't mean to generalize, but a lot of parents don't— enable the conditions for their children to develop critical thinking. To develop critical thinking, you've got to be able to have a conversation and discuss the options and retrospect on things and to learn, um, even though it takes time and even though it can be frustrating and And even though those conversations can be uncomfortable, because the easy thing would be just to say, this is what you need to do, right? But, you know, to the extent that a child can learn to, to make decisions based on their own thinking, that's going to be tremendous for them as they grow. And by the way, as coaches, CB, you know, that, that's why— that's the power of asking questions and creating the container that we create. We're exercising that critical thinking. We're helping somebody develop and exercise— it's like going to the gym— their capacity to think about their options and their decisions and their choices.

So as a parent, how do you, how do you help a child become resilient? How do you help a child, uh, in making choices? Um, and then how does that translate as an adult in the C-suite office? So what I'm getting at is take a look at Let's go back to the Tyco's and Enron's, right?

Mm-hmm.

You've got the C-suite office, and these people are clearly making wrong decisions or not making any decisions, which no decision becomes a wrong decision, right? What separates them from the Alan Mulallys of the world that really go in, clean up a company and make it run like clockwork.

Yeah, I mean, I mean, in the case of the Tykos and Enrons, you know, there's a variable that makes it tough to, to do an apples-to-apples comparison because they're really like— there's a moral vacuum there, right? So Now, you know, if you extract that, um, you know, the moral and ethical lapse, there's, there's certainly a leadership style that I'm sure, you know, became pervasive that probably, you know, discouraged asking questions, you know, probably reinforced a psychologically unsafe environment for people, probably rewarded the wrong behaviors and punished the right behaviors. So, you know, that's where bad leadership probably takes hold in those In those instances. But I think, you know, as far as like if there's a parallel between, you know, say great parenting, which by the way is leadership, right?

Yeah.

It's definitionally leadership. And say being a CEO, I think it comes down to appreciating the delicate balance between 2 polarities. So you have to be, as we just talked about, like as coaches, we create that container, that safe space to explore, to engage in inquiry. That's super important. But there's also times as a parent, and by the way, as a coach, Mm-hmm. Much more so as a CEO, where you got to be directive, where you got to actually say, this is the principle and this is the direction we're going to be going in. Right. And I say the delicate balance because they— I think that you can't have just one or the other. You know, the more— the older I get, the more I am able to appreciate the complexity of polarities and how you can't just be focused on execution, but you also got to be focused on strategy. You can't just be focused on great relationships you've got to be focused on driving results and performance. As a coach, you can't just be focused, you can't be 100% exclusively, how does that make you feel? How does that make you feel? What do you think about that? Those questions are great and they can unearth a lot. But there's also the importance, again, this is my opinion, of a coach being able to bring their expertise and be somewhat directive at times as well. Right. And I think that's A lot. I mean, that's if I think about your organization, well, the surface-level value prop is that you got coaches who've got tremendous business background. Why is that important? Well, there's a lot of reasons why that's important from a credibility standpoint and this and that. But it's also important because they've been there, done that, and they have what to offer.

Yes.

Not at the expense of somebody's free will and their own critical thinking, but, um, there's a tremendous— they can be a tremendous resource, and to not share that would be withholding, right?

Absolutely.

And so I think that, you know, going back to, um, I'm sure you've gotten a sense of me now. I can, I can talk your ear off, CB.

I love it.

I'm sorry, you said, you said living room chat.

Yeah.

But, you know, if I'm to bottom line it, I think great leaders are able to balance the dynamic tension between polarities. And there's a number of them. There's a number of contradictions. And not great leaders tend to go— they swing to one side. or the other, and then they live in the extremity of one side or the other, and it can be at the expense of their leadership. And I think the same applies to parenting as well.

Yeah, I think what we're talking about is courage, right? As a coach, and I don't think we think enough about courage as it applies to coaching. We take the road more traveled, which is to say, ask questions. Your role as a coach is not to solve, but to show the coachee how to solve through asking questions. I've always said, if you come, if you apply to ACEC with that methodology, you will not get in. Because the same manner, if you go to a CEO and you sit in his office and you say, so what's the problem? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And what do you think? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And what's, what's your solution? You will probably be shown the door in a second and a half, or as like we used to say, a New York minute. You know, you've got to bring it.

Yeah.

Looking for not only questions but direction. And you have to be able to balance it, and you have to have the courage to go toe-to-toe with your client to challenge? Because in many of the cases, the CEO gets there and there is no one to challenge until it's too late.

Yeah, I, I, I drink my own Kool-Aid. I have a coach, and even if she's wrong in the— with the challenge, I appreciate so much the challenge.

That is not an unexpected comment from you, Jonathan.

And you know what, CB, sometimes, you know, when, when she's off, that's actually— I'm like, you're off and here's why. And then somehow in the here's why part, that unearths or, you know, illuminates an insight that I didn't have, right?

Yeah.

And And so the challenge is huge. And I think our job, half the battle, of course, is designing the, the rapport and the coaching relationship so that there is the sufficient trust in place to be able to challenge. Right.

Yes.

So all those things that you think, oh my God, I just want to go straight for the jugular. No, you've got to go through this, through those important crucial stages of contracting and, and really, uh—

I, I think, uh, our coaching field has been given a disservice to say the way to coach is only by asking questions.

Well, that's the safe play, right? That's playing it safe. That's not— that's your point around courage, right?

That directive part, being able to say to somebody, no, however you want to say it, whether you want to say maybe you want to consider or just no, that's not it. You have to have that courage to be directive. to say, this is the way that would support you best.

Yeah.

Right? This is the way that you need to visit this. This is— and in some cases, as I've said to clients, no, this is just not going to work. Right? And that takes a lot of moxie. I mean, you have to pay your dues. But I do think it's sad that we educate coaches not to be able to do that, right?

Yeah.

And so that's why it was important to me when I designed ACEC to look for those kind of coaches. And I'll tell you what, here's the funny part. I don't have a coach. But every single member of ACEC, oh man, I step out of line, I am told—

God, be careful.

Be careful what you ask for in life, right?

That's great.

I remember them telling me, CB, you're getting in the way of the success of ACEC. Step away. What? Wait, who do you think you're talking to? to. They knew exactly who they were talking to. And you know what? They were so right. I have to admit it. Hey, Holly Tesca, who is a member of ACEC, um, and she was with Wright Management for quite some while, and she's written in 2 comments. She says, oh boy, CB, I have one up on you. I met Jonathan at executive coaching conference Hosted by the Conference Board. Oh, Holly! Okay, Holly and I love chatting, chiding each other. We are, you know, sisters at the at the mind. She is Holly Teska. She is quite brilliant, a brilliant coach, right? And strong and toughest nails. I mean, she gets it. She gets it, right? Then she comments, I love the discussion about the nos, how some people are shut down by them versus those who push through to a yes. And yes, those nos have also made me think carefully about saying no to someone.

Yeah.

I could be a blocker to their future. future success. You know, I love that. That's the other side of the picture is learning when to say no.

Mm-hmm.

And when to cut the bullshit, let's face it, and say, okay, no. So now, Jonathan, what do you consider after this pandemic to be the most important change that you've seen Yeah, it's a great question, Stevie.

I think, like, the current state right now, from what I'm seeing, you know, with our clients and experiencing as a CEO myself, is And people are exhausted. People are super tired. And, you know, we talked about Zoom fatigue and then like straight up fatigue. And then I see this new word languishing that's coming. And, you know, I think people are just tired, right? And, um, and that makes sense, right? Because the world is just getting whiplashed. We're just getting whiplashed.

Yes.

In every direction, everywhere, everywhere you— in every dimension of existence right now in sort of modern society, from political to education, social. There's just so much whiplash, and I think people are tired. And in organizational life right now, You know, the big thing, of course, is, all right, well, we just went through a year, about a year and a half of collective trauma, and we've had to learn all new ways of working.

And now, now what?

Now what? Do we radically change how we work? Do we go back? to the way things were in 2019? Do we try to establish some kind of new way of working that retains some of the key learns that we've experienced over the year and a half and integrates it with what we know worked, you know, pre-COVID? And so leaders right now in the C-suite exhausted, and they're also very preoccupied with how do I author the new way of working for my organization, right? Now, sort of the, you know, I'm speaking very much to the, you know, the US audience on this call because there's parts of the world where, you know, it's far less fortunate, you know, as far as vaccine rates and and, and the, uh, the numbers. But, you know, for the most part, it seems like we're, we're out of the woods, or at least the really, you know, challenging woods in the US. And so, um, you know, if you think about Maslow's triangle, we're going up the triangle now to be able to think about, you know, our identity, our purpose. purpose and how we work. And so leaders are very much preoccupied with what that all means, both conceptually and very concretely, right? Does that mean 2 days a week at work and the other days at home? If 2 days, is it Monday, Friday, or do we eliminate that? Because then people are always going to want to take the long weekend or— yeah, it's all of these things are what C-suite leaders are preoccupied with. And then there's also a— there's a sort of a third variable here, which is enough. Like, we need to cut through all the noise. and get back to work and get focused, right? We need to focus on our business. And so what I'm recommending to leaders right now is get your ass on a vacation. If you haven't taken vacation, you need to. A lot of leaders are operating on empty right now. Yeah, just on, on fumes. And so we need to get restored, and then we need to get focused, and then we need to— what is leadership? It's, it's setting a vision, being very clear about that and communicating it, and then mobilizing others towards that. That's leadership, right? So we need to be bold in setting that vision and and moving people towards that. And to do that right now, because it's so noisy and there's so much variance, not everybody's gonna be on board with the vision. And this is where it's gonna take a lot of strength, especially for leaders who are, you know, who want everybody to love them and, you know, see leadership as a popularity contest. You're not gonna win any popularity contests here. 'Cause the decision you make, return to work, is gonna get some very excited and others are gonna be really upset. And if you said hybrid, same thing. And if you said virtual, same thing. So it's sort of a no-win situation for leaders and they have to be bold and strong. But to do that, take vacation. Get restored.

I like that point. But here's what I'm seeing. But first, I want to— Mary said, she's another member of ACEC, uh, I love the discussion about critical thinking and decision-making. Good insights from Jonathan. Well, okay, you're— popularity. Um, so Jonathan, here's what I'm seeing. I am seeing leaders are making some serious mistakes. And I— it's this— so we just came through not one pandemic, but 5 pandemics, and we're not through them all. So we had, first of all, the COVID Mm-hmm. We have mental health as a result of that. of that. We have the economy, we have the environment, and we have social justice. All of which have hit together. And right now what I see leaders doing is focusing on whether or not to bring people back into the office.

Mm-hmm.

That's not the focus area. What you're doing is you're ignoring what we just came through, thinking it's over. It's not. It's not over, and it will happen again. And you haven't prepared your employees to deal with these things because you're now setting it aside and say, okay, it's time to get back to work and produce.

Mm-hmm.

The flip side that I'm hearing from some really senior employees is, I don't know if this company is where I want to be because Let's just take the diversity issue.

Yeah.

Social justice. I don't like how they responded to the killing of Floyd. And now they're saying, come back to work, let's forget that, let's focus on producing. No, I'm looking at the moral compass of this company, this company that ignored people people dying from a disease. This company didn't say, let me get enough shots for my employees to protect them. They didn't do that. So then you sit and you question this company didn't have my back. They don't have the same beliefs that I have. Why do I want to go back to the same thing, whether it's at home or by Zoom or a combination? Employees have now had a chance to look under the blankets. They've had time to peacefully, quietly look under the blanket and examine the virtues of the company that they're working for. Look, I have a client who said to me, CB, I don't think I want to work at this company. This is a top tech company and he had a top position. And I said, why? And he said, I don't like how they're handling social justice. Hmm. I said, well, what is it that you think you could do differently? And he said, well, I'm very much involved with my synagogue and we are doing work to support the underserved. And I feel if I leave my job, I can do more work to support the underserved population. And I said, okay, let's examine this. Do you have enough money to support your family? His answer was yes. I said, okay, do you feel if leaving this company Yeah. Will affect their beliefs in how they handle social justice? Or do you feel if you stayed and made a difference, that you could affect the social justice and have money to support your cause and have time to support your cause? And he said, I never thought about it like that. I said, oh, well, let's examine that. One of the things that you have a concern is that their hiring records for people of color is dismal.

Mm-hmm.

You're in a position to hire people of color. You're in a position of making a difference. Is your decision to leave the right one? It becomes a challenging statement, but a statement that represents where this country is. People are saying, why do I need to work for this company? And because of how unemployment insurance is working right now, I go into Costco and I say, why don't you have the normal products on the shelf? And they're now saying it's a labor shortage, Mark.

Yep.

So we think of people at the top making these kinds of decisions. But what's happening is people at the bottom are making these kinds of decisions. And companies are suffering radically. When Costco says to me there's going to be a food shortage, it's time for me to pay attention. Okay. You know, why? Labor. I said, is it because of the pandemic? They said, which pandemic? See, Costco keeps their eyes on the public, on the consumer, and they see what's coming, whereas the companies that are supplying Costco are not seeing what's coming. They haven't addressed the 5 pandemics. They're worried about whether or not they're going to be liked if they pull people back in or let them work by Zoom or combination. That's not where the problem is.

Yeah.

That's my thinking as I examine what's going on.

Yeah, I think the— I work with a CEO right now who navigated the pandemic beautifully. He's an old—

Which pandemic?

The health crisis.

Okay.

Not the mental health, but, you know, the coronavirus. And, you know, they were extremely generous and conscientious and handled, did everything, everything right. Um, but he said, you know, and his greatest concern is it's the transitions that kill us, right? That's what breaks us. And so, you know, to your point, CB, we're going from the pandemic or the 5 pandemics. Um, and there's, you know, so that say that's like where we were, or arguably, you know, where we still are, to this new place. And there's the transition. And I think what I'm hearing from you is you can't just force it. You can't just say, get back to work and start producing, you know, September 15th is the date.

Yep.

You know, you're here, you're out, right? And, and I think there's a lot of wisdom, um, in, in what you've shared there because What we know about trauma is it needs— you need to process it and make meaning of it.

Yeah.

And just pretending like it doesn't exist or flicking the switch, that's not— that's not making meaning. That's repressing.

Because when it happens again, and it will, I'm going along with Billy Gates there. You know, we're on a 5-year spread. No, you've lost all the trust that you've tried to recuperate. And it's going to be worse.

Yeah.

We're not out of the woods. We're, we're a different society. We're in a society where disease and politics and famine and social justice make us so much closer that there is no escape. There is only a solution that we need to find.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, not to be Debbie Downer here, but there's— I'm only saying this because there is an opportunity for solution. I'm not saying there's no opportunity.

Yeah, well, I think it's a really important point. And I think if you— it ties into the work we do, whether it's individually in one-to-one executive coaching, yes, at the team level with team coaching, or more systemically, you know, some sort of like culture initiative.

Yes.

But, you know, ultimately we live in systems that are nested, you know, from organization to team, a team of teams, team, individual. And each aspect of those nested systems is experiencing the transition from point A to point B. And therefore, each requires a mechanism for making meaning in order to get to the other side successfully.

Yes, I agree.

That's where I think, you know, executive coaching has been a lifeline for so many people. Yeah, it's always been that way, but, but particularly right now. And—

It's interesting that you said that. Sorry to interrupt, because at ACEC we had all kinds of special meetings, and during the pandemic we had Saturday morning fireside chat. Now I can't get anybody to come to anything because all of the members are totally booked out with clients. I'm so proud of them. I'm so happy because—

You two.

Yeah, about that, you are going to be so needed because there's so much you're going to have to do after this pandemic. You need to position yourself so that you can respond to the call of action. And I think 90% 90% of our members did that. And now it's like trying to get an appointment with a specialist. You can't get in to see them.

That's right. Listen, it speaks to the demand and it speaks to the real need right now. And, and by the way, team coaching and teams coming back together, processing everything that's happened, refining our identity and purpose, that's huge. Huge right now. That's something I would— it's my number one recommendation to leaders right now is you got to do something for the team.

Yeah. Dr. Kathryn Carr, who wrote one of the gospel books on team coaching, is a member of ACEC. I can't even get a call into her these days. It's insane. But hey, I want to talk about First of all, Mary says, thank you, CB and Jonathan. I have to transition to another call. I'll continue to reflect on the 5 pandemics and the bottom-up decisions that are in motion. Okay. I want to talk to you about an instrument that your company designed that Robin mentioned to me that you're using with executive coaches, with clients.

Yeah.

Tell us about it.

Yeah, well, we have, we actually have 3 instruments. We have a 360 tool that measures all the things that a regular 360 would measure, but also the dynamic nature of the leader and their ability to, how effective they are at managing the polarities that that are inherent in leadership. We have a Team Effectiveness Survey, which is a tool that is a diagnostic for teams. Very popular right now because teams want to get a baseline of where they're at and very useful when it comes to team coaching. Then the tool that Robin might be— is likely referring to is the Coaching Mindset Index or CMI. And the Coaching Mindset Index is an assessment tool that can be used to learn what your coaching style is as a coach. But it doesn't have to be Coach with a capital C. It also could be as a manager coach. And so, you know, am I overly directive, overly inquisitive? Am I managing both of those well? There's a push-pull, overarching push-pull framework and different strategies that fall along those 2 dimensions of push and pull. And a coach who takes this will be able to see, you know, what their style is, what their preferred strategies are, all in pursuit of becoming, you know, the type of coach that they want to be.

Mm-hmm.

So it's a great tool for self-awareness and taking a baseline. We use it a lot in leaders coach types of programs with organizations that are looking to instill coaching skills within their organization. A lot of coaches benefit from it as well.

I love it. Well, I want to talk to you about the team effectiveness right now because it seems like we've just had a great discussion about the pandemics. We are talking about teams coming together. What do you feel are the most important factors to allow teams to be successful? And does it differ by industry?

Yeah, that's a great question. So based on our research, there's 2 primary variables Oh, wait, hold on.

Robin says Leader as Coach is the one she's talking about.

OK. OK, so that's for the Coaching Mindset Index. Yes. OK. You know, as far as the, you know, team effectiveness survey that we, that we designed and train people on and sell commercially, there are 2 broad areas that we measure And one is what we call team culture, and the other is what we call team productivity. So team culture is how does it feel to be on this team, and how effectively are we engaging with each other and relating to each other? And there's 3 sub-dimensions to team culture: trust and safety, which is a lot like psychological safety; cohesion, right, how unified how much pride do we take in being a team? And dialogue, how effectively are we able to, you know, talk about things, not just easy things, but also difficult things, and manage conflict within the team? So those are the 3 sub-dimensions of team culture, or how it feels to be on the team. And then you have team productivity, which is how effectively and efficiently we're getting stuff done. And that's all about alignment. Alignment, how aligned are we in our, you know, from our purpose to our priorities to our goals and execution? How effectively are we executing and communicating with each other? And then learning and adapting, like, are we learning from our mistakes? That's something we talked about, you know, right off the bat in this conversation.

Mm-hmm.

Are we retrospecting and learning to continuously adapt? And so if you think about team culture and team productivity as dimensions with these sub-dimensions, that's what our assessment tool measures teams against. And when we then, you know, that gives you a baseline understanding of the health of the team against those dimensions. And then based on the topography of that report, we're able to focus our intervention if there is going to be a team coaching engagement, for example, alongside it, we're able to craft an intervention that closes the necessary gaps to get that team to high performance. The team doesn't necessarily need coaching that, you know, you can train a leader to be able to self-coach their own team. And we're seeing a lot of organizations also try to bring that in-house. So enabling their talent development partners or their HR business partners to be able to provide feedback on the team effectiveness survey and intervene as well. But that's in a nutshell how our tool works and how we view teams. And what we're seeing right now is teams actually really spiked in in productivity. So, you know, this is not new to anybody on this call. Like, everybody's been working, you know, more somehow, right? Because we're not commuting, we're not traveling, we're not going out to lunch, we're back to back to back to back. It's part of the reason why we're so tired, right? So that had a real lift for the productivity dimensions, but it came at a cost. And that's what we're seeing right now. And that cost is culture, right? So the two didn't necessarily go up in tandem. And so right now, you know, we've seen sort of a crash in culture. And so what we're doing with teams now, most teams we're working with, there's a disproportionate focus on culture dimensions relative to those productivity dimensions. All of it's important, but based on the dynamics of the 5 pandemics.

Jonathan, we're out of time, but I don't care. We have a few more minutes. I want to challenge a couple of things that you've said, or at least ask about it. Do you have a few more minutes?

I do.

Okay, good.

Yeah, we can go over.

All right, so my audience knows I'm crazy. What the heck? Okay, um, like a fox, right? Um, culture in an organization— how do you feel as being part— culture in a team— how do you feel as being part of the team? Okay, so my first My first question is, what dynamics are you looking at when you examine how do you feel to be part of a team? Are you looking at the diversity of religion? Are you looking at the diversity of color? Are you looking at the diversity of knowledge? You know, When coaches are coaching people that might fall into any of these areas, they're coaching them because they don't feel part of the team. And has your assessment looking at why and how to change that? That's one question all rolled up. The second question I had was, it interests me when you said there was a spike in productivity. And I wondered, before you said anything else, was that because of the change in technology more than in the change of behavior? What do I mean by that? When you're on Zoom, you're face to face.

Mm-hmm.

There's no looking at the total environment. There's no looking out the window. There's no, you know, looking at what you're wearing. Basically, it's like, in your face, let's solve this now and move on, right?

Mm-hmm.

So it's— I'd like to say it's more concentrated thinking, unless you're zoomed out, right? But on the other hand, you were saying if you are zoomed out and you have this exhaustion from being unzoomed then you might have a crash in productivity. But we're still seeing those numbers higher to the degree that some companies are saying, screw the office. I mean, I'm going to be doing this online. We don't need all this office space, right?

Yeah.

So they also saw an increase. Are you predicting that there'll be a crash in productivity? Are you seeing it already? Or are you predicting it? And how does the technology play a part? A whole bunch of questions.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I don't know if I'll be able to answer them all. And I'm— and, and by the way, you know, I'm also, you know, we're all going through this together. So I don't think anybody is the, you know, the owner, like, oh, I'll tell you how it all works. You know, it's like, You know, we're all faced with this. We're all experiencing this in real time, right?

Yeah, but this is Coffee Shop.

Yeah, I mean, so, you know, on the team culture side, and particularly as it pertains to diversity, I mean, you know, we know from just experientially, but also research, that diversity is actually Heavily associated with, you know, team performance. It can be harnessed effectively.

Yeah, it could be the demise of a team, or could be the excellence of a team. Correct.

It's actually a lot easier to have a homogeneous team. If everybody looks like me and talks like me and thinks like me, it's so much easier. Oh my God, it's so much easier. I think so. But we can go straight into a brick wall, right? 'Cause everybody is thinking the same, right? And so the real business benefit of a diverse team, there's a lot of benefits, but probably, I mean, in my opinion, the greatest benefit is you have differing perspectives on a singular topic. And through, you know, by harnessing those perspectives, we're going to arrive at a conclusion that we never— I never could have thought of on my own, right? But that doesn't just happen. There's a lot that has to be done to make it feel safe for somebody who feels so different to be able to open their mouth and take some risk.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

That's fundamentally the concept of psychological safety, or what we think of as trust and safety, because psychological safety is very important, as is concepts in trust and reliability of the people we're working with. That's the piece that really matters. You can't just have diversity. You have to have a psychologically safe environment so that that diversity is harnessed. And by the way, diversity, of course, you know, in terms of race and gender, which we hear about a lot. But I also think age diversity, huge, huge. Some of the biggest changes in my business has been when we, you know, when we brought in somebody who was like, you know, could be like the grandpa of some of the millennials in our business. And it's like, yeah, maybe he's not as quick on Slack, but wow, like the experiential knowledge and the wisdom and that in combination with some of the younger folks on the team has brought something about that not one or the other could do alone, right? And so age diversity, you know, gender, race, religion, ethnicity, it's all, um, it's, it's all so important.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, as far as, you know, productivity, um, you know, I think that, you know, productivity is, you know, for the companies, the that are coming back. I think productivity is getting a little bit dinged actually because we're in that transition in flux. But that's offset by, you know, I think spikes in culture and also a lot of creativity 'cause there's a lot of, you know, oh my, here, let me show you what I mean by that. Let me just draw this out on the marker before you know it. Stuff's on that marker board that we weren't even aiming to address, which Zoom, like you said, it's narrow, it's targeted, it's laser-focused on the topic at hand, right?

Mm-hmm.

But when we're in person, for some reason we're willing to, hey, can you come with me to just get a coffee? And all of a sudden we're talking about something else, and before you know it, something new has emerged in that conversation in such an organic way. Right, that wouldn't have happened in a 45-minute or 30-minute Zoom call with very specific agenda items. And I'm always looking straight at you, you're not walking together. And so I do think things will ultimately even out as we, you know, find some homeostasis, but we're, you know, we've certainly not found a homeostasis yet. an equilibrium yet, you know, or right in that transition.

So my prediction is Zoom is going to allow you soon to have those walks around the corner, those virtual teas, and those writing right on your screen. I interviewed Martin Lindstrom, Who's the branding guru. And I interviewed him and I had him at the ACEC conference. And he took out this marker and started writing so that people could see it on the screen.

That's so cool.

The attendees were like, whoa, stop.

That's really cool.

Okay.

Yeah, I think we're gonna see some really I think there's gonna be some really cool technological innovation because nothing really has been created to address hybrid, right? Meetings are still kind of weird when you got the TV there and some people in the room, and do I look at those people or do I look at the TV with the camera? So I think my sense is there'll be some really cool innovation on its way.

Yeah, coming out of this, I can't wait. It's been a pleasure. Is there anything that you'd like to tell us about your company before we ring off?

Thanks for offering that. Yeah, I mean, we're freaking passionate, CB, about our mission, which is to help leaders navigate change and shape a better future. And we take a lot of pride in our expertise. in helping leaders navigate change through executive coaching, team effectiveness, leadership development. But it's not just to stop there. It's not change for its own sake. It's really to help shape a better future. And that's where I get my energy. And being on this call was energizing because of you, but also because of everything you stand for. And so it's highly consistent with, you know, my purpose. And so I thank you very much for inviting me to be on your famous podcast. It is famous.

Thank you. Well, this is out on LinkedIn Live. It worked today. It went out on Facebook and it went out on YouTube. And later this week. It'll be on iHeartRadio and Apple Podcasts. So you are now considered famous. You can sign the autograph.

All right, thanks, CB. I really appreciate it. This was a lot of fun.

Thank you. Well, audience, you have now heard from the Jonathan, and, um, so I hope you reach out to him on LinkedIn. Of Of course, as well as the other media areas that we have at our fingertips, and find out more about his company and the incredible work that he's doing. And of course, ask for the coaches that are part of ACEC. I'm terrible, I know it.

I love it, I love it.

Jonathan, until we meet again, thank Thank you so much. And audience, I think we're on next Tuesday. Thursdays we're taking off until September, but look for me on Tuesday. Bye everybody. Thank you, Jonathan.

Thank you, CB. Bye everyone.