Challenges of the C-Suite with Johannes Coloma-Flecker, Episode 28

Hello everyone, welcome to CB Bowman Live Challenges of the C-Suite. Hey, listen, I have to brag a little bit. Don't you love my earrings and my new pendant? My hubby gave it to me for our first year anniversary, right? He's a keeper. Okay, so enough bragging, but I just had to share with you. So it's so good to see you this week. Hey, you're gonna have to forgive me. I have to have mints and Ricola. My throat's killing me. I've been coughing out of control. And I believe it's— it's not COVID, don't worry. It's the Sahara dust winds that are coming across the United States that are just causing us havoc with our lungs and coughing. So Not to worry, it's air pollution, and we're not used to that here in Colorado. We're used to pristine air and beautiful views. So hey, you know, it is what it is. But forgive me, you know, I bring it to you real. So here are my Lifesavers and my Ricola and I have my liquid refreshment, my juice and tangerine water mixture. So I am ready. And we have a great guest here. Oh my gosh, this man is— I don't even know how to describe it, but I will tell you, for my wedding, he picked Well, I picked the best, my favorite song, which is a Tina Turner song, and he rearranged it, or I don't know how you call it, but he sang it, and it brought the house down. I owe him so much. I will just never forget what he did for me. But it's just an inkling into his—

Yes.

Many talents. He is a master at helping people get in touch with their reality, their authentic self, even though I hate the word authentic self because the words— it's been so overused. So let's just say helping people get in touch with who they are and showcase it to the best of their ability through music. So he takes his brilliance in music and allows people to heal and showcase. What an exciting show we have, and he's going to share with us his personal journey. And you know, I was talking to a good friend of mine yesterday, Tasha Ehrlich, about how people are not willing to share their personal journey. And it's kind of selfish because other people may be going through the same adventures in life and not know how to survive or get through it like the person who is going through— has gone through it and has been resilient. And I just find if we talk a little bit about our experiences— I mean, you hear me talking about my experience.

Yes.

All the time, not to overdo it, but to let you know if you're going through the same thing, you're not alone. And so we're so fortunate because Johannes is going to share a bit about his story. So without further ado, may I introduce my dear friend Johannes. Johannes, welcome.

Thank you so much, CB, for having me today. Thank you so much for your kind words. I mean, it means a lot to me, and our friendship and professional, you know, being professional colleagues and friends really means the world to me, and sharing music with you as well.

Well, I didn't tell people, full disclosure, Johannes is part of MG100, Marshall's group, and that's how we met each other. So we both have the honor to be part of that group. Johannes, tell us a little bit about what you do before we go backwards to how you got to what you do, what you're doing.

That's a, that's a great question, and, uh, you kind of compressed it in such a beautiful way, much better than I actually could. So, uh, I, I need to write this down, what you just said. Um, what I basically try to do and, and, and doing my work is helping living— helping people live a better life by actually understanding who they are and bringing them back to their innate musicality that all of us have. This innate musicality that is often buried in us, when we, like, when we express it, when we free it, when we express it in its manifold ways from speaking to sharing our stories, to coming up with great ideas, to being less fearful and just, you know, being on stage and saying what we have to say. When we are enabled and when we allow ourselves, when we give ourselves the permission to be our full, wonderful musical selves, then we can live better personal lives and live better professional lives. And In the work I do, I aim to help people like uncover that and grow with their innate musicality.

You're saying that everybody has innate musicality, which I've not heard that term before. It's a lovely term. People used to assume that I was— had innate musicality because I was Black. Right. Meantime, I could not keep a beat to save my life. So I would argue that I don't have that. I'm sure others would argue the same. So how do you discover something that you don't really believe you have? And proof of the pudding was I couldn't clap to music. I had to watch other people be able to clap. How do you prove it?

Yeah, well, it's proof of the pudding is that you were sharing yourself, your emotions, your ideas, your happiness about the earrings, that you shared your story about your health and your voice and how you introduce other people, how you introduced me to the world. You shared this with the most beautiful instrument that you have, your voice.

Ah.

Who cares if it's a melody? Who cares if it's a specific rhythm? Who cares about A-flat minor? We share our stories all day long, when we get up to when we go to bed, and we use our most beautiful instrument. Like, I think no one would argue that our voice is— voice has the biggest range of emotions for anyone. I mean, we listen to singers all the time. And every one of us can express this through our speaking voice. We have perfect control over our pitch, over our tone, happiness, sadness, about the rate how we speak, about the excitement we produce, about the volume how we share our stories. We have perfect, perfect pitch when it comes to this topic of musicality. And that's about it. And starting there, like opens up a whole new universe, at least universe of awareness that we have this musicality.

Well, that's interesting because I never realized that my voice tone indicated my mood until I got married. You know, when you're married, you really have to pay attention to your spouse if you're going to have a long and happy marriage. And I noticed that when I get mad at my husband, my voice definitely changes. I am not raising my voice, but in fact, I'm doing the opposite. I'm lowering my voice.

Mm-hmm.

And to the point of not speaking to him, right? Because he's very, um, in tune with me, right? And so I have found that if I raise my voice, it doesn't work. It just doesn't work with him. He's just like, yeah, okay, you can't do it as well as I can. I'm Italian, right? The opposite, though, has a big effect on him. If I get to the point where I'm just not talking to him, it drives him up a tree, right?

Of course.

So I think I see what you're saying here, how we do use our voice. But what say you about people who can't speak, who can't use their voice? How do they express this musicality then?

Of course. Of course. That's— and that's a very important question because not all of us can actually physically express ourselves. I think the— I give one analogy of one of the greatest musicians in history who had a real, like, real disability when it comes to speaking or to listening. Ludwig van Beethoven composed his works deaf, completely deaf.

Yes.

He heard it inside. He heard it inside of himself, and he did not keep his gift with the world by himself. He had the ability. He understood how to write and how to create melodies and how to create beautiful harmonies and make the oboe sound beautiful when it plays together with the violins. So that's obviously a huge part. His education was education for him that he was able to express it. But he chose in the face of the greatest adversity you can imagine, not being able to hear your own composition, he chose to continue and compose it and share it in the way he could. He wasn't able to hear it, and he wasn't able to— I mean, I have never heard that he was actually a singer or like expressed it much through his voice. He was able to write it. He used his hands. His hands were his way of actually sharing what goes on in his heart. His hands by writing down the symphony. I mean, the ninth symphony. Dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun. He did not hear a single, a single word of it. He actually drove his neighbors crazy because he lived in Vienna and he had so many apartments, and they kind of kicked him out of all his apartments because what did he do? He wasn't able to listen to his music, so he actually. stomped so much the rhythm on the floor, and with his hands he knocked on the walls to get the rhythm and to, to actually feel the rhythm. And that's how he was able to feel, to feel his music without ever actually listening to it. So when we actually, like, when people cannot speak or don't have the ability to express, to express it in with their words, let's see what other opportunities you have to express your musicality, maybe through words, through a beautiful poem, or through actually dancing through the rhythm that you hear without using your words. So we have so many ways to express musicality. Our voice is just one. Our ears internalizing the beauty of music and of rhythm and what other people say. Our hands to create something new, to write something new. Our senses to touch something. So a lot of— there are actually drummers who are completely deaf. They feel the rhythm and get rhythm by placing their hands and fingers to the loudspeakers to actually— to understand the rhythm. Or we can actually dance. So, so many ways of expressing it, not just limited to—

So when I have heard of people who have the unique ability, as you mentioned, to feel music through like the floor and dancing, you know, why is it that we can't all feel that? Why can't— why can't we all learn rhythm through touch or our other senses?

I think it has to do with— a lot has to do with exposure and actually having it as a given that we have the perception, the belief, and the internal knowledge that we're able to do it if we want to. And I think that also like goes like hand in hand to what you mentioned before. You do not think of yourself as a musician. You do not think of yourself as being musical. So you block everything. You block this idea of yourself. Like, and it's not even reality for you. First of all, we need to believe and understand and know that we are musical before we can actually create a single note. It's the same as with singing. When a singer produces a tone, a note, and releases it, where is the sound? Where does the sound— where's the sound created? The sound is not created in the sound waves. The sound is created way ahead by the thought.

No way.

We first need to think of the thought before we can actually project it. So that's what, like, every great— every voice teacher I ever had, every violin teacher I ever had, they taught me, Johannes, don't just play. Don't just sing. Don't just release a note just because you want to. Think of it first. Think of, with this next song, you want to reach the person who sits in the last row. So you need to think of projecting your voice in a way that goes there. And this goes such a long way of actually producing the sound, the emotion, and the rhythm and the music that we want. So knowing first that we're able to do it is, you know, as we say in the German language, half of the rent.

So Johannes, can you give us a sample of the difference if you were singing to somebody right in front of you versus singing to somebody way in the back of the audience?

Mm-hmm, of course. So I mean, there are a few, there are a few elements that we can always manipulate, each one of us, no matter if I'm singing or speaking. It's the pitch, it's the, the volume, it's the rate. So how, how quick am I? How, how fast am I actually singing anything or saying something? And it's also the tone of, am I singing it happy or sad? So if you're in front of me—

Wait, what's the difference between a pitch and a tone? Aren't they the same?

The pitch— okay, sorry. The pitch is actually the how high or low am I singing it? Oh, so that's the pitch. Which kind of tone do I want to produce? Which one is— first of all, what is my personal pitch? And this is another topic that we could cover. What is my authentic base level pitch? What is my, my, my own natural voice? So that's the pitch. And the tone of it is Am I singing— let's think of it like a rainbow, a rainbow emotion, or a rain cloud emotion? That's the tone that I can produce. So it's actually in music like major and minor, happy and sad, rainbow, rain cloud, or any other analogy that you want. So what is the emotion that I want to produce with, with what I'm singing? So when I sing to someone at the very end of of the, let's say, a big concert hall, there's much more emphasis on projection, on like having strong volume, of having strong breath, of using my full lungs, full capacity to not strain my vocal cords, to not strain myself when I sing. Think of the person that I want to reach, sing higher so I actually, my voice actually can go a longer way. and use these, you know, manipulate these elements. When I sing just in front of you virtually or hopefully soon again in person, then I know volume. How do I want to manipulate this? Louder? I don't necessarily need to. You will understand me well. Lower? Hmm, maybe lower volume might actually have a better effect because the lower volume Often when we lower our volume when we sing, when we sing, you know, quieter, there is more tension. There is more anticipation. There is a stronger dramatic, stronger drama in it. When I sing something very quiet and take a break and let it linger, Low rate. If this is the situation I want to create, whether I sing or whether I speak in a— for a presentation, not necessarily singing, then these are the elements that we can all influence. The pitch, how high or low. The rate, how quick, how slow. The tone, how rainbowy, how raincloudy. And the volume— how loud, how quiet do I want to transport my message? Because this will tell, as you just shared, when your husband is angry at you, when you're angry at him, this gives a completely different experience of our lives. I mean, I had this at one point. I wanted to make like dessert at home and ask my spouse, okay, do you want a favorite dessert?

Sure.

This was like in a— this was like— this was a moment when we had like some kind of argument before, but usually it's kind of, sure, higher, a little bit more excitement in it, right? So you can try that. Sure, sure, sure, question mark. So small little elements, we use it all day long. Most— mostly we use it in an unconscious way. Being aware of it when you speak in front of important audience, which we always speak in front of an important audience, that can go a long way.

Wow. I remember that you taught for the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches, which I'm the CEO of. We asked you to come in and do a presentation and you taught us how to write a song. I'll never forget that. Um, can you, can you share with the audience a little bit about how you did that?

Sure. It was, it was so much fun. I remember this very fondly. Um, in the middle, well, at the beginning of the pandemic and, and when we were all new to the situation of working from home and, and through Zoom, uh, what we did is actually that I think nobody really in the group has written a song before. It's hard to remember.

No, we were all executive coaches.

Yes.

We were all— you asked us to think of something important to our problem we wanted to solve. And everybody thought, why is— first of all, the coaches who are all master-level coaches couldn't see the connection between music and coaching.

Mm-hmm.

And so you said, okay, think of a problem that you want to solve or an event you want to solve, and we're going to put it to music. And I could see, because we did it on Zoom, everybody was thinking, okay, CB is out of her mind for bringing this guy in, and what the hell is he talking about? But then when you taught us, we were like, Can he come back again?

Yes. Well, welcome to my life.

Yes. So take us through the exercise you put us through.

It's truly so. Yeah. So for our audience today, it's truly about if your story were a song, how would it sound? How would the lyrics be? What would the story be? Imagine, like, really, we always ask the question, if you need to, if you could compress your biggest story that you have today, this year in your life, at home, with your coworkers, with your startup, with your coachees, if it were a song, can you compress it in a 2-minute, in a 3-minute song with just a few lyrics? What would be the song title? What would be the first verse be about? What's the chorus about? What is the highlight, the climax of the song? What is the melody of your song, of your story? Is it a happy, is it a sad song? Why? Why not? When does it change? When will it get happy? What is a different perspective? Who is telling the story? Is it you? Is it your clients? Is it your spouse, your significant other? What is their experience of your story? So there are so many elements that we can bring together in our biggest story and try to make sense of it by compressing it in a very short, in a very concise way. And with writing songs about it, the beauty of it is that we can all connect to it. That's number one, whether we have done this ever before or not, doesn't really matter. We all know what it— how a song looks like and how it should sound like and what a good song is about. And then we can actually go through this, go through this process of, okay, I have my first verse. I'm going to maybe start with, where am I right now? What is the situation I am at? But I don't have that much space for it. I just have 4 lines. First line, second line, a few words, third line, maybe a rhyme, fourth line to highlight it. I have 4 lines to bring it all together in a way that is memorable and in a way that I don't use my business language and profit and loss and revenue and like adversity. Adversity, this word doesn't exist in a song. I need to come up with metaphors. How do I feel? How does the problem look like? How does it sound like? How does it smell like? Where do I want to be in this situation? And the true missing link for me is between normal storytelling and creating a business presentation and a slide and whatever and creating a song is I make sure to have both topics, uh, or like parts of it that I can see, let's say external characteristics. So I, I include this, for example, today is Tuesday, I, I'm right now I'm at my office and I work on this, on this topic, and this is all external so I can see it even I don't need to explain With the song, we go one step ahead and further and also include the topic of internal characteristics into it. That means, how do I feel about this, that I'm right now in this situation, that I go to this whatever event is I'm talking about in my story, and I make sure I have space, dedicated space to share how do I feel about it. What does this do to me? What does it do with me? Where am I going from there? So we share the outside world, the inside world, the intellect, the heart, the feelings, the emotions with the story development, with music, with rhymes, with verses in a very short amount of time with very little words. It's difficult. It's a difficult thing to do.

Yeah.

And on the other hand, it's also very rewarding because it helps us really understand where we are better and feel our story better.

Well, I never told you this, but the exercise that we did, I used it to create my wedding vows. So you were all around and involved in my wedding, from the song to the wedding vows.

I remember that.

And it really— it allowed me to look inside. And I'll tell you, when I was younger, I used to write poetry, but it was a very different experience working with you, Johannes, to— I don't know, it was like magical in how you taught us to express what we were feeling, and then you took it and you added the music to it. And what I found happened is that what I was writing, when it came out in music through your sound, it sounded different than what it was in my head, but it was right on point.

Mm-hmm.

And I thought, wow, that's, that's an incredible gift that you have. So, so this program is Challenges of the C-Suite, and I know that you work with the C-suite to help them understand themselves and how they present themselves to the— to employ— to their staff and to the world.

Mm-hmm.

Can you Without disclosing the name, give us an example of something that somebody in the C-suite went through and was able to work it out through music.

A good example is, is a, is a program where I was hired actually to do executive coaching for actually the, the team and the C-suite. for, to actually help them go through an agile change process, from coming from an organization that was actually very, that was very much in a legacy mindset, basically. They're very, very hierarchical, very much on structure, very much on— they had all these boxes checked with strategy and so on and so forth. But they were not really able to actually connect to their peers and to their employees and to their colleagues. This did not really happen. Through the work that I was doing with them, actually one part was actually setting up an agile strategy with them, and the other part was actually helping them as well expressing their stories through music.

Please tell the audience what an agile strategy is.

An agile mindset and setting up an agile methodology is actually thinking not in a long term, not setting up a long-term strategy and then creating goals to reach that strategy, but having small little milestones to move forward basically step by step. So what you can think about is you always do little sprints to move where you actually— to move closer to where you want to be and have like short results in a very short amount of time. So where you don't think, oh, in 2 years we need to reach this and that that specific goal and to fulfill our strategy. But our new methodology is actually, let's think about what can we change today with the resources we have today and do this continuously. So this actually creates like a different perspective because all of a sudden our corporate development and the departmental development is not just, you know, we don't rely only on the leadership. and they know what the big strategy is. No, we break it down. We break down our progress into smaller steps, and everybody needs to be involved. So it creates much more autonomy, lower dependency on headquarters. It creates more, you know, like I need more responsibility for everyone in this team. And this, for this specific organization that I was working with, with on the East Coast, this was a huge challenge because everybody was in the team and their employees, they were basically following kind of orders that they got. But there was no initiative coming from the employees. There was a lot of struggle when it came to that. Many employees—

It sounds like there was no motivation reward. Yeah, because the jumps were too big.

It was fine. Everybody was doing fine and everybody was working there for a long time. So there was a low fluctuation rate, which was actually a challenge because it was like, like safe haven. And okay, leadership will tell us what to do and we just sit there, kind of. I mean, they were very much like, they were very, you know, eager, but no motivation came from the people themselves.

Yeah.

So we needed to shake this up. And, um, through, through like creating like an agile change methodology, part of it was music. actually to achieve that. And part of it was, and that was for the first time I think ever this has been done for a global event, we did with a team of 90 from the C-suite and leadership and employees from all over the world. And over a 3-day program, we actually, part of it was creating a song about this change together. with everybody, and nobody had a clue what, what, what was going on. But we did. We created a song about this new mindset, this agile methodology. We use this as the content that we were working on for 6, 7, 8 months. We brought— we broke this down and wrote our first verse about this. Okay, what— how do you want to work differently? One verse was actually about, okay, if we screw it up, this will not be a problem anymore because this is part of the process. And they wrote this in a song together, all the 90. And we had then— it was just an amazing, like, part of this kind of new mindset that we created together in these 3 days. Like, in addition to, you know, to all the the other topics that we're talking about, creating the song together. And this was unforgettable, performing it together after 3 days with— I produced the background track overnight in a hotel room and with a big speaker system. We had a beautiful upright piano there, and we had the lyrics as a karaoke version on the video screen. And then all the 90 people were standing there and were actually with one rehearsal doing very well of performing this together. And the essence of it is that while we were creating this change, we were actually also seeing and experiencing this change on a different, on a very emotional and heartfelt level. It was interesting because I spoke to one of my colleagues who I was working on this project with, like, this was a few weeks ago. And I wrote an email to him, like, about something completely different. And he told me, Johannes, I was just talking with this client a week ago, and we were just talking about this song which stuck in their mind so strongly.

Wow.

One very beautiful and memorable, like, experience where we saw we can actually really— when we go through a change, when we go through a situation that really shakes up the whole team, the whole department, the whole organization, music, musical expression, the permission to do this, the permission to to also feel our story can actually make a huge difference. And this is what this was all about.

You know, it's an amazing methodology that you use because when you think about it, music is such a release for us, a release of emotion, tensions, what have you. And, and you have created a way where you've taken a tense experience in the workplace and made it memorable in such a way that it gives people a feeling of accomplishment and reward.

Mm-hmm.

That is so unique because in, in many situations when we're trying to solve a problem, we're happy that the problem was solved, but there's no— I don't know how to explain— there's no release mechanism, right? And you've created a way that, that, that release mechanism results in a sense of reward and accomplishment.

Mm-hmm.

That's masterful. So I think that you need to put a stamp on this and sell it somehow to many people because— and the other thing is that people at the top of the organization, they take the situation, whatever that situation is, and they take it very seriously. And there's always this pressure to resolve.

Mm-hmm.

There's no pressure to rejoice in the solution.

Yep. Or to have also fun in the process.

Exactly.

Not necessarily for the fun, for the sake of fun, but for actually like having, opening up this tense situation.

Yes.

Because we can, we have a similar language. We can all talk about this. We all understand music and we can come together through this. If there is an otherwise tense situation, Just talk about a song with no need to do much more. And you can— you have a similar, you know, also, you know, understanding of and permission to talk about this somehow.

Yeah. And this idea of rejoicing, I don't think that that's a term we use a lot. And maybe we should explore it more because now I'm listening to you and I'm thinking about various cultures in the world.

Mm-hmm.

And how do they celebrate? How do they experience this joy through the result of a happy event or a sad event? You know, you think about religious celebrations. are steeped in music. Oh, you think about culture being steeped in music. You think about— and I would go so far as to say those cultures at the time that they experience the most difficulties is when music comes out more.

Right? Yes, of course. It's never the rich, successful people Who create the most thought-provoking, innovative, powerful music. It's so often the oppressed, so often the people who also do not care about material gain.

Yeah.

Like, through— throughout history, I, I don't— you think Mozart created music because he wanted to get rich? Obviously he needed means to, to survive, and, and if, if there's income, obviously that's necessary. But like any, any great— Janis Joplin, did she do it because she wanted to make a quick buck through— no, this is like, it's an intrinsic like need for us to express ourselves. And, um, yeah.

And so bringing this into the workplace is pure genius. Pure genius. Thank goodness that you're doing that.

Thank you. Thank you. Um, I was actually like, for— there, there are such simple ways to actually implement this without— with— you don't— nobody needs music degree or background. Next time in, in a meeting when you talk about a specific topic, or for example, how can we solve a problem better? How can we think about like this challenge better? Play a song. That talks about these struggles. Play a song to the team while you take a quick break. Don't think about this, like, this challenge right now. Listen to the song, listen to the lyrics, um, and what can you take out of it? And have this mindset when you, when you now then work on the challenge. I did— I do this a lot actually when I work with, with teams on, on action, agile, agile change-making sprint workshops. And creating new ideas and creating new solutions. In a quick break, I play them a song from West Side Story, Something's Coming. Something's coming, I don't know what it is, but it is gonna be great.

I love it.

Even that by itself, you don't need to do much more. Listen to the lyrics and have this mindset. Or there's a wonderful song that I use all All the time. It's from an obscure musical called Anyone Can Whistle, and the song is called Everybody Says Don't. Everybody says don't. Everybody says don't walk on the grass. Don't disturb the peace. Don't skate on the ice. But I say do walk on the grass, the field, and so on and so forth. It's such a great song of challenging the status quo. Use this to have this audio, this different, this different input part of your work, because we always otherwise look at Excel sheets and at Zoom. Have audio, let it, let it work on you. It touches you directly, and then do something with it or don't do anything with it and just have this fill up your, your daily work.

Well, I, as I'm listening to you, I am Going back to my wedding day when you recreated Tina Turner's Simply the Best for my husband.

Wow.

I will never, ever forget that. And everyone is still talking about it.

Oh.

Johannes, tell us about your story now. How did you get to the point of being able to help people. Um, you know, I find that the people I've met in my life that are able to help people are people who've been through something themselves.

Mm-hmm.

I was asked just yesterday, was I always able to see the pain in other people and help them through it? it. And without even thinking twice, I said yes. And they said to me, how were you able to do that? And I said, I, I don't know, I've never been asked that question. But I think the answer is, in the pain that I've been through, I can take that and look at it for what was the lessons learned and how can I see that in other people and support those who want to— the operative words— change.

Mm-hmm.

So, Johannes, what you're doing in the business world is exceptional, extraordinary. It's a methodology that has not been used before in the way that you're using it.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, I remember years ago where people had an offsite and you had an orchestra leader come in and work with the audience on showing— playing a tune. What you're doing is not that. It's actually taking the subject and talking through solution through music. Right? Through creating words to the songs. What in your background allows you to be able to do that? Tell us your story.

Yeah, that's such a good question. And usually I'm not really asked this question a lot. I don't get this question a lot. So—

I'm nosy.

Take me a moment. It might take me a moment. I kind of always knew I never went with the group, I think. And I was never— and it always feels so— it always felt normal to me to be kind of an outsider. Is a very negative word. I never experienced that. But somehow never being in the group so much and needing to go with the flow. I think that—

because I think the word outsider is a beautiful word.

It is.

Because it allows us to see what the world can't see. We have the ability to look at things from a 360 perspective and like a bomber jet. Become laser-focused on creating solution out of this wide view that we see. This bird's-eye view allows us to go right for the target. Yeah, we can only do that by being an outsider.

Yeah. And I think I always— yeah, that's such a good, such a good way of thinking. And I love that you put this positive spin to the word outsider. So also fully agree with you that it's, it's, we, we, we all are kind of outsiders in some way.

No, no, no, no, everybody can come into our club. Hell no.

Club of outsiders. Love that. Yeah. And, and I think it requires that, yeah, just not, not, not going with, with, with the, with the, with, with the groupthink. And to some of us, it's forced by external influences. To me, it was forced upon that I always, I always knew it was different somehow. I always created my own worlds when I was, when I was a little boy. My mom always told me I sang on my way home, and I was jumping, and I was singing and full of joy. And I built my own worlds drawing and with music. And I always had like, I think it was very, uh, I had big imagination as a child. Growing up though, I always felt I was really different and I didn't really have any role model. Like, I mean, I'm now happily and proudly married to my wonderful husband. Never in a million years could I have imagined this growing up. Growing up in a loving environment and also like embedded in a culture where this was not, not at all a possibility. So for me, this traditional way—

What country were you living in?

Austria. Austria. Yes, yes. So growing up, it was always, you know, you need to follow this, this, this, this path, and, and then boyfriends, girlfriend, and you, you, for marriage there's a path, and you get pat on the shoulder, and then this and this and this. Because, and for me, nothing of that happened. I didn't have any role models.

Yes.

So what is the usual way of growing up, like, being gay? Uh, there was nothing. There was, there was just no way. So I needed to create my own way. And like, through traveling a lot, um, through always doing something a little bit different, through my, my, my love for, for music and for the arts, for then choosing to live in different countries and like having more empathy with, with other people. And very often I think this comes naturally when, when you're not like majority, majority all the time, to actually like think in other people, in other people's shoes. I think that's how you say it. Yeah, think like other people and what they go through, and that many people are suffering silently and not sharing it. And for me, such a moment was when this was in my local like, uh, branch of the bank where I grew up, and I was, I don't know, 20 years or something, and I went to the, to the booth, and I knew that the person who was on the other side of the booth, he was also gay. I, it was— I, I knew it.

First of all, let's go back a little bit. How old were you when you realized that you were gay?

I kind of always knew that. I always knew that. And then there was a lot of time, a long time when this was buried. Um, and kind of, you know, self-rejection and, you know, not sharing it and then kind of, kind of trying to forget it.

So when you say you always knew, were you like the age of 2, 3, 5, 10?

Uh, I mean, kind of already 7, 8 or so, and then kind of forgetting, and then, you know, as a teenager, and then Kind of knowing, always knowing.

So what made you realize at that particular age? What were the clues that you personally had?

Well, the attraction, the attraction and the lack of attraction, you know, and then thinking, well, maybe it comes, changes with time or so on. And, um, but it never did. So I thought, well, there must be more to it. And, uh, yeah, but not having really role models, or this was nothing in the public view, or it was always— it was not really a topic in the public view. So it was very difficult for me to, to, you know, really make peace with it or— and living it. Not at all. I mean, yeah, until much later in life.

It's interesting that you say that because my experience of the gay world was, uh— so my first career was in the art world. I was an interior designer. So I went to school at Parsons School of Design. And in the— I think in the arts, it's a totally different experience because you don't— you— I was just going to say something that would not work. I was going to say you don't see gayism. But the actual— but the reality, that sounds like people who say you don't see color. You do see it.

Mm-hmm.

The difference is that the respect is different. It's, um, it's— I don't know how to describe it because you almost are in the world and you're in the gay world and you go to parties, you go to sleepovers, and it's it's all okay, right?

Mm-hmm.

And I was thinking about that in terms of being Black, you know, where white people would come over, go to parties, have sleepovers, and it's all okay, right? So I think that, you know, there's an interesting similarity in the concept of exposure, right? If you're exposed to a different culture, a different way of living, it becomes part of your life in the sense that it's okay, right? I don't know if I'm describing it right.

Of course, of course. Yeah, it's, it's so much the surrounding and Again, the power of voice and of the stories we hear and the stories that are embedded in our mind. And I, I know a few of those remarks, like towards gay people when I grew up, and I heard them and I thought they— I, I still can, I can still, you know, could repeat them right now, the specific sentence, because it made such— it was imprinted in my head.

Yeah.

So let's not underestimate the power of words and what this can do to, to fragile, fragile people, or to people who are unsure, unsafe which way they should go. Would it be a good idea for this person to be open about their experience in this?

That's an interesting comment, because the question is, aren't we all fragile in a certain point of our lives? Yep, we want to blend in. And what people become embedded in our history.

Of course.

You know, um, and, and that's the point where I think parents have to take on a responsibility to expose children to different cultures, different lifestyles, in discussion And acceptance, not to make judgment.

Yeah, but that's— this is like, this can be achieved like even in a minor way. That's a massive progress that, that we have if we like reduce judgment of, of other people and their decisions if they don't hurt anyone. Um, This is a major achievement that we can create. And I think, I think we as a society, I mean, I can only speak about the countries I know in Central Europe, in Austria, and then lived in Switzerland, in the United States. I think the conversation that we had like 20 years ago when I was a little boy, 30 years ago, and that we're having now, I think despite all setbacks, it's a positive, it's a positive direction in general. So slow with setbacks, that's at least my personal experience.

So let's go back to the bank story because I cut you off and that sounds like an interesting part of your journey.

Yeah, well, this was one of the first times when I, without being out, and, uh, but I kind of, I knew the person, the bank teller, that he was gay. And he was around my age, was very friendly. And then a month later or so, I heard that he committed suicide because of the fear that he would be rejected by his friends. And this was for me such a— I didn't even know this person, but it It really hit a nerve and it was soul-crushing to think about— you take your life because you are afraid to share who you are. And I didn't really do anything about it. I still didn't speak out, but I felt such a disconnect between what I need to say, that it's not them, there's someone gay. No. There's so many, like 7, 5, 6, 7% of people, I don't know. What is— should we be silent? Should we stay silent? What? So this was very, a very—

What did you know when you met him?

Hmm, it's difficult. It's difficult to say. Um, I think it was maybe it Some intuition, like maybe some awareness, you know, when you're already— I think once you grow up with music and with listening to people and empathy and already knowing that you feel different, it's a little easier to understand other people and to— To kind of know where they're coming from, if it makes sense.

I agree with you, and I asked that question because I think based upon my experience in the art world, um, I have that same ability to recognize, right? And people will say to me, how do you know? I mean, you're, you're not gay. And I'm like, um, and I think about it and I can't answer the question. I cannot answer the question. But spending a good pair— a good amount of my time, my formative years in the arts, you, as you're saying, you develop this sort of abilities to really pay attention. I think that's what it's about. It's really paying attention.

Yep, yep. Yep.

And picking up on— and, you know, once somebody said to me, um, I, I couldn't quite figure out where I was in the universe in terms of, um, the experiences I was receiving as a Black person. And somebody said to me, you know, CB, you're really brilliant, but the problem is you deny your gut Mm-hmm. And I'm like, whoa, what the heck is that about, right? And I really thought about it for a long time and started to understand what it meant. And so I think that one of the things that you do through your music is allow people to pay attention to their gut feeling. And then understand how to use that knowledge in a favorable way.

Mm-hmm.

I think that all of us need to figure out how to pay attention to our gut, because paying attention to our gut sometimes means not paying attention to what people are saying. But paying attention to how are they delivering the message and what's behind the message, what are their intrinsic motivators.

Mm-hmm.

Really listening. And, you know, when I was at the New School for social research, I'll never forget— and people in the audience have heard me talk about this— the assignments that we got Taught us to think. Now, when I say that to the average person, they're going, "See, what what the hell are you talking about? Taught you to think." But it did. It taught us to think in a non-biased way. Doesn't mean I have don't have my biases. Not saying that. Can't stand peas, right?

But.

It taught us to listen in, in a different dimension than just using your ears. And you're teaching people to speak at a different dimension than just the spoken word, right?

It's— yeah, that's a beautiful way of phrasing it too. It's, it's It's really more than listening to the words or writing down words. It's about the intention that I have when I create it, the thought that goes into it. How much of my inner world am I allowing to share with others? Because this says a lot about also the trust that I have into others of not being judged or being fine with being judged if not everybody loves what I have to say. How much am I willing to share? And, you know, those songwriters are often people who have a lot of this capacity to share their innermost world, and that's why it connects so well with everybody, because we understand. As listeners, we understand. And it's not just superficial, superficial love song or like biographical details or boasting. It's about really the deepest scars and the deepest fears, um, that we have. And that makes it, that makes it so, so deep and so, um, engaging. And for myself, it helped me also find finally at one point in my life making peace with, um, with, with the fact how I felt and who I was and sharing this with the world. Because I was already speaking on stage and, and talking about authenticity and how to share your stories authentically. And I remember I was invited to a speaking engagement. It was with the entrepreneurs organization about resilience. I spoke about resilience and I taught people how to write a song about resilience with 60 entrepreneurs. And preparing this, I thought, I'm not living my own authenticity if I don't share what I have to say. And this was a moment when I was on stage And said for the first time publicly that I was gay. This was big for me.

How old were you then?

I was 30-something, 34.

Wow. Wow.

And from this moment on, I kind of knew— I mean, it sounds kitschy, a little cliché— I kind of knew I was free, kind of. I can do whatever I want. I don't need to fear those uncomfortable discussions. Oh, where's your girlfriend? And so on. I am free. And this was a major breakthrough, um, to me, for me personally. But because, you know, that was my own aha moment, my own, my own like revelation through music. Johannes, you write songs, you tell other people to open up, you need to open up yourself.

And what happened in the audience?

I mean, very kind and very encouraging, like, uh, like reactions and, and applause. And it was beautiful. And some, some people wrote me after that, actually, um, and that was very, very heartwarming that they, they— I remember that when I got this email to say that this, um, uh, was impactful would be an understatement. Because we, like people shared, wrote a song about resilience and then they came on stage just reciting their text, their lyrics. And I had a beautiful— we had a beautiful grand piano there. So I accompanied them on grand piano while they sang their song about resilience, about personal struggles with those 60 strangers in front of them. Unforgettable. I'll never forget this event. Wow.

Wow.

I got so much more out of it than they would ever know.

I would say that it probably allowed them such freedom to be able to talk to things that were in them that they have never shared.

Someone shared about— it was about resilience. And I thought, well, they will probably share something about, you know, how to overcome professional struggles and how to bounce back. And then someone went on stage and sang his song about that he neglected his family, that he doesn't even speak to his daughter, that he doesn't even know his daughter well, and that he needs to change that. Everybody was crying. It was— that was for me a moment when I thought, it's worth it. It's worth doing that. Because this was cathartic. It was cathartic. I also didn't expect that people would open up that much. But there is, you know, this different setting, this different structure. All of a sudden you have the melody and it allows you and it gives you the courage maybe to share things that are very personal. You know, if I say something, if I say something very emotional to the audience, it might come off weird, but I can sing about it. I can sing a love song and it's not weird, and I can look at the people in their eye and it's fine. And it just gives us some crutch, if you will, whatever helps to open up.

Whatever gets you through the day, right?

Yes.

You know, I had an experience where— I'm not sure the audience knows, but I think they do— when I discovered that I was dyslexic. And my, my upset with it— this is gonna sound really weird— is when I say to people I'm dyslexic, they like to say, I am too.

Right.

Um, no, you're not. You can't play in my playground. I've been clinically diagnosed as dyslexic. Have you? Uh, no, but I spell things wrong. And so it's kind of fun. Everybody wants to join the club, right?

Yeah, of course. Oh, me too, me too. I'm gay. I'm me too. All of a sudden, why?

And I'm like, wait a second, you don't understand what it's like to go through school and the world for years thinking you were not bright.

Yeah.

And then all of a sudden to find out that your intellect surpasses most people that you're going to meet on the street, but because you have a disorder, Mm-hmm. you— and that you didn't know how to work around it, it held you back. But I'm telling you, Johannes, when I found out I had it and I was able to talk about it It freed me so much. And the only time I get upset now is when people say, I can cure you. I want to take them and go, do you not get it? I don't need you to cure me. Yeah, I'm good.

Yeah. You know, so helpful. Everybody's too— sometimes too helpful people. Yeah, that's—

yes. Yeah.

I mean, well, and then leave it, leave it alone. Leave it alone. I'm fine.

I'm fine. Yes, exactly. And so I think I'm going to send them to you now to write a song.

Yes. Write a song about it. Solves everything.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's, it's amazing. You know, I was talking to somebody the other day who was saying how upset that they got over the phrase of People who say, I don't see color. And I said, why are you getting upset? Well, how could we— we all see color. How could they not see? I said, no, no, that's not what they're saying to you.

What are they saying?

They are saying to you that we Or I want to help you— not help you, we want to be part of whatever it takes, whatever you need to solve, but we have— we don't understand.

Mm-hmm.

So we need you to help us understand so we could be part of the solution. That's what they're really saying, but they don't know how to say it.

I think there's such a, such a great point you, you're making. That's also my—

in my—

so much of my impression that so for so many people, it's not part of the lived experience on a daily basis. There is no vocabulary. Yes, never been brought up to talk about it in a way that is fine. Especially if you grew up in a country— I mean, in the United States it's different. Growing up in Central Europe, in Austria, no one talks about— about— no one talked about these, these topics, how to have better conversation, because it's not the lived reality for the massive majority. So it doesn't exist. And they— and then you're afraid, and people are afraid and don't know what to say, and then they stay quiet.

Yes.

So actually sharing, raising this awareness that it's fine to talk—

Or they try to speak about it in a way that actually comes out disrespectful.

Yes, that's— I mean, yeah.

Yeah, I had a person say that to me just this past week, and I said— and he wasn't from the United States— and I said, I need you to understand by saying that, you're disrespecting the person you're speaking to. And he said, what are you talking about? I had terrible experiences being raised Irish. And so I understand. I said, no. I said, by saying that, you're saying you don't respect the trials and tribulations that the person went through because you don't want to recognize the difference. Well, you choose not to recognize the difference, or you don't know enough to recognize the difference, right? So if I say to somebody who's gay, I don't recognize you as being gay, what—

Conversation is kind of over. Yeah, there's no conversation.

Yes, exactly.

Because it builds, it builds the wall. It, it, it— this leads to this defensive mechanism that we need, because all of a sudden I need to defend. I'm not in an open conversation where we, you know, play balls in a friendly way. back and forth and try to heighten the game or our experience, our common shared experience. With this, if I block and I raise the wall, and that's, I think, so often problems in— not necessarily of not meaning well, problems of we do not learn how to communicate. We do not learn it in school. We often do not learn it from parents. If we do it, we're extremely lucky.

Right.

It needs to be part of the curriculum, how to ask questions when it comes, when the other person has the emotions, emotional baggage, or how do I ask the question when I have the emotional baggage? How do I ask the why questions? Why is it? How can I help? What is behind it? How to ask this and not just those yes and no questions where I kind of corner the other person.

Yeah, yeah.

And yeah, that's very, Big, big topic.

Yeah. Yeah, I was in a florist store about 2 weeks ago, and I saw a woman using walking sticks. And normally you would see that like if somebody's climbing a mountain, or in Colorado here, we see it a lot. But I was watching the woman who was with her daughter. And I could see that her daughter was embarrassed. that her mom was using these walking sticks in a florist store, a garden store, right? So I turned to the woman and I said, I see you're using walking sticks. My husband bought those for me a couple of Christmases ago. Do you— what's your experience of using them?

Mm-hmm.

And she said, aha, thank you for asking. She said, I was at in a— oh no, she said, I received a flu shot and it paralyzed me.

Oh no.

And so she said, she told the story how she was hospitalized for quite some time and they didn't think she would walk again, but she learned how to walk and the walking sticks helped her balance herself.

Mm-hmm.

And I said, can you show me how to use them? And so she said, I use them stick first and I steady myself and then I bring up the other stick. And I said, thank you so much. I have not used the ones that my husband bought me and I have a bad back and I did not know how to use them or really what they were for. And I like to get out and walk. I, at the corner of my eye, I was watching her daughter, and her body language shifted from being ashamed to being proud of her mom, which was my intent.

Wonderful, wonderful.

In addition to learning how to use them, because I put them away. I'm like, what the hell is this for, right?

Yeah.

I think that we need to pay attention and we need to figure out how to ask the questions that will enlighten us and ease the burden of other people. I don't know why this is not taught.

Yeah, but what you did is, it's beautiful what you did because you, you allowed her to share your— her story. Probably for the first time, probably for the first time to her daughter, who for whatever reason did not understand. You gave her the space to share her experience, and this, you know, releases so much of this tension and this misunderstanding of this, you know, antipathy that might, you know, arise over, over a long month, over a long period of time.

And I I only saw it as I learned how to use walking sticks, you know? I could be real Colorado now with my walking stick.

Very handy in Colorado, yes.

But I think my other reason was to relax her daughter, you know? Because it's a beautiful thing to see parents shopping with their children. I love seeing it. I didn't see that enough in New York. I love seeing fathers out with their children. And so that, that experience of them sharing shopping for flowers and plants could be a positive experience versus an embarrassing experience for a young teenage gal, right?

Yeah. It changes, it changes, it completely changes the dynamic if we see, like, there are some topics as well with medical, like, challenges that people have. And I know people who are a little bit, you know, forgetful when they get older. And then often the reaction in their environment is, oh my God, you're getting stupid, or you're getting silly, and why don't you remember that? Why don't you remember that? Because they don't even know that this is a diagnosis that this person has, that short-term memory, there are some challenges. But once you have this and you can switch this conversation, that is, okay, that is, I have challenges with this. I cannot change it. This is what I need. We need to accept. And this doesn't define me who I am. This doesn't mean there is anything stupid or silly or clumsy. or whatever other derogatory words there are for this. No, this is one little aspect that I'm not able to keep, have a good short-term memory. And that's part of it. And that's part of the story. But the bigger picture is that everything else is wonderful. So let us also be very mindful of which part of the story do we want to perpetuate and which parts of the story are not that important. Because this little, this little incident of this woman with the walking sticks. Oh, you can't walk. This defines you. No, all of us, this is not the story at all. So often we have wrong perceptions of what the actual story is, the actual achievements, the actual things we want to overcome. What is it what we want to emphasize? And that's far too often we emphasize the imperfect, And the, and the little imperfections and the, the negative sides, even though it's just a tiny little element. So what can we do with this? Do we want to make an elephant out of this, or do you want to minimize it? Do you want to accept it lovingly and say, this is part of the story, and there's so much more to this bigger picture? And what you've done was actually, with, with the lady in, in the, in the store, changing this narrative. To put this, you know, does she need the walking sticks, put it in the right perspective.

And I think, Johannes, in listening to you, it's a two-way street, which never occurred to me before. And you're providing the tool for the other side of the street, which is to admit the difference that you have and allow people to talk about it, give them the space to talk about it.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, it seems to me, Johannes, the work that you do can play such a bigger role in creating that space so people feel free to talk about it. And then when they're free to talk about it, somehow it transcends to people being okay with talking to you about it.

Mm-hmm.

I've said to people in the work that I'm doing in the D&I space, it's okay to ask me about my hair. It's okay to ask me if I get sunburned. Whereas when I was younger, I thought, what an insane question. I just cleaned that up. But now that I'm older, I see that that's a conversation that should be okay to have.

Yeah, yeah.

Because how else is somebody going to learn? Like I asked a colleague of ours in MT100 who's from Canada when he said, well, we have racism here in Canada. And I said, what The country's all white. What are you talking about? And that's when I learned about the indigenous population. But I would not have learned if I didn't feel free to make a stupid comment that I made. And he didn't say, okay, CB, you are totally missing some intelligence quota. He explained to me how it works. in Canada. And now I can see it, understand it, understand what's in the news. So I don't know, it's, it's really hard. It's, it's a street that has to be— has to go two ways.

Absolutely. That's often what occurs to me when we talk about— since I'm following news like in Austria a lot, and also everything in German-speaking countries— when there is a conversation about United States. And racism in the United States.

What do they say?

Racism explodes in, in, in, in the United States. And, and I often think, wait a minute, there— the racism that is there in Europe is not— nothing is better, it's just less visible because the majority is white and the majority doesn't need to understand more because it's outside of their of their lived experience every day, as I mentioned before. So if you say racism is bigger, let's look at the numbers. Like, what is it? What is, you know, how many African Americans, how many Asian Americans, how many Indigenous people are in the United States? How many whites? How many Latinos? And like, let's compare this to Europe. And so this needs some, you know, also some you know, like good perspective because it's easy to talk about other countries' problems if you have— if you're a majority white country.

Yeah.

And if you do not face it at all and if you pretend you don't have a problem with it, with structural racism and with people who don't even acknowledge that there is racism.

Yeah.

So, and that's what's happening a lot in Europe with a little bit of a— there's a wonderful word, uh, in German, like Schadenfreude, like, uh, like if you're happy for other people's, like, problems. When people look to the United States and say, oh, they have all these problems, look at them, they're not that great. Look at, look at your own country. You don't even need to— you didn't even face anything.

Yeah, that's it. That's a great point. So, Johannes, um, we, uh— oh my goodness, have we run past our time? Oh my God, this has been such a great conversation.

I know, this is an open conversation today, right? Time flies when you're having fun.

I want to know, as, as a closing statement, um, is there a way that you could take your talents, your abilities, and Spread it wider than working with one company at a time? How can you— the work that you're doing is so genius. How can you get masses of people on board with what you're doing? How do we learn what you're doing? Do you have a train-the-trainers program? I just threw a whole bunch of questions at you.

Yeah. I think, like, it's— so number one is it's about the idea. That's what I like also, you know, like reckoning with, okay, it should— it's not about me being somewhere. That's, that's already the wrong approach. And I'm— but what is the idea that we want to, you know, transport? that we want to bring across. Because as one person, there's, you know, that's very, very, very limited. And making a change in one person at a time, that's great already. So I think when we talk about scaling this idea, it's not about Johannes or one person talking to a million people, but having a million people having the same idea and talking to one person. So if the And it is happening anyway because we have so many people who live through music, who listen wonderfully, who improvise all the time, who take risks, who practice with others, who collaborate with others, who create the original work, who compose, who play, who perform, who make others' lives better. That's all part of it. That is all part of the equation. So it's not like this is not happening at all. In the way that I'm trying, you know, not trying, the way that I'm doing it is just having people like have it very on top of their mind, being very aware of it. So that might be a difference. So yeah, train the trainers is a good idea. Like, I also have a lot of ideas to scale this idea through scalable songwriting services, for example, where people share their stories, and we actually, with an armada of songwriters, create it in a very quick way for people. So there are a lot of ideas out there that I have and that I follow up with. And, yeah, but in the end, it's not about me. At the end, it's not— it doesn't matter if I'm here or not. In the end, what is important, think creatively, think like a musician, be in touch with your soul, with your heart, and share what you have to share with your beautiful, unique voice, and share to make the life of others a little bit better during that day. And that's all we can do.

Johannes, yes, you're speaking like a true hero, but within that, and within that, I want you to recognize That the work that you're doing is very special and very unique to you. And I am hoping— my wish is that you are able to train others to do what you do with the love that you do it in. And when you say you're changing one person at a time and, and that is not, um, not as critical as many people taking this on and sharing it with other people. And I will push back and say, regardless of whether you share it with 1 person, 100 persons, or 1,000 people, each person that you share this technique with is receiving a gift to be able to share that with somebody else.

Yeah.

We may not be able to do it as good as you can, but the experience that you have given us is a gift that we can talk about and share with others. So thank you so much for doing the work that you're doing, and please Anyone who's listening, you see Johannes's name there. He's on LinkedIn. Reach out to him. This is amazing work. Amazing. It sets you free. It will set your company free to accomplish goals that you couldn't even imagine. Trust me, you all know me. I'm that tough broad that has that sensitive soul. So when I speak like this, I really mean it. Get in touch with Johannes. Make a difference in the work that you're doing. Johannes. Thank you.

Thank you so much.

So much.

Thank you so much, CB.

And leaders that are listening, CEOs, it's So important that you reach out to this man. Make a difference in your organization. Johannes, why don't you give us your way to reach you besides LinkedIn?

Sure. I mean, LinkedIn is a great, is a great way to connect. First of all, since we're all here already, um, you can like connect with me on through my, through my email, my first name Johannes, and then @johannesflecker.com. Johannes at johannesflecker.com, and I'll be happy to, to answer any questions or give any musical input or advice.

Great. Thank you so much for sharing your personal life, the techniques that you're using to improve the business world, the techniques that we can use to improve our lives and the lives of others. Thank you so much, Johannes, for being here.

Thank you so much, CB, for having me. Thank you so much for everything you do. It was such a pleasure to be here.

Thank you. Okay, everybody, you have your assignment. You know what to do. Get in touch with Johannes. That's my secret for today. And I will see you next week. We missed you last week. But you know what? Follow me and you'll know when to tune in. Take care, have a great day, and be successful and communicate out there with everyone. Bye now. Bye.