Challenges of the C-Suite with Saray Khumalo, Episode16w

Hello everyone, welcome to CB Bowman Live. And you know, today we talk about the workplace and social justice, and we have a special guest. You know, all my guests are special, right? Uh, and her name is Sarah and she's from Africa, and it's so great to be able to talk about the differences of social justice in other countries. So we have a chance to learn what's going on. And you notice I have no hair today. I'm rocking a new look. I'm winking at you, but next week it'll be back. I tell you all my secrets and I really shouldn't. So I have to think of a really good secret for today. Well, it's not so much of a secret, but you see it scrolling across The bottom of the screen, the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches, ACEC, is having its annual conference. And you know, if you use the code SCC before next week, you get in at the lowest price, the insider's price. That is kind of a secret. It is only for listeners on LinkedIn that listen to CB Bowman, right? So with that said— oh, and don't forget to watch me on the other LinkedIn Live show. And I have a new LinkedIn Live show coming up right after this. We're going to start to meet social influencers and find out how they work their game.

Mm-hmm.

And you want to be connected to these people. And by the way, I'm on Clubhouse. Ring me up on Clubhouse. Okay, so now all the advertising is gone and we're gonna talk to Sarah. Sarah, I'm so happy you're with us today. And we met, we think, on Clubhouse, right? Or LinkedIn?

Yeah, we met, we met on Clubhouse actually. Yeah, we're in the same room.

Oh my God, you see what can happen on Clubhouse? you've got to follow myself and Sarah. So Sarah, tell us, where are you from? Tell us all about you, and let me interrupt you and ask you 20 million questions.

Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Sarah, uh, Kumalo, born in Lusaka, Zambia. I am now based in Johannesburg, South Africa. Um, I am the first Black African woman to summit Mount Everest. I'm an executive coach, um, and I really love inspiring people because I believe that are all uniquely extraordinary, and being ordinary is a choice. And every now and again, we just need a reminder.

And I love that expression. Sarah and I were talking, um, before the show, and we were saying, you know, for me, uh, I hear the best proverbs or expressions come out of Africa, right? And so I want to repeat what she said and write it down. It says, we are all uniquely extraordinary, and being ordinary is a choice.

Yeah.

And I know that anyone listening to this show is extraordinary. So let's rock this out. Sarah, first, tell us about climbing Mount Everest.

My mother thought so. Um, no, you know, I, I really— I started climbing as— I always say I'm an accidental mountaineer— as, as a bucket list, you know.

I don't think you're accidental anymore.

Yeah, so I, I started climbing with Kilimanjaro, which was a bucket list item, and I did so with a group of other people. There was 5 of us. And while we were preparing, I said, you know, why don't we use it to raise money for a home that we used to look after? So there's a home which is still in Johannesburg that looks after street kids. They at any point had between 180 to 200 street kids. And every month, once a month, we'll take them for a hike, We'll take them to the zoo, do something with them just to help them integrate at some point. After 18, the government doesn't support them, so we just wanted to help them in that way. And every month we would go around the office and ask for contributions in order for us to be able to do this. And I said to the guys, why don't we use the climb to raise money for the home so that we can do something impactful? And we did that, you know. The summit happened on Kilimanjaro, which is the highest peak in Africa. But the real shift happened for me when we were giving away the outdoor gym that we built for the home, and we also converted a room into a library because one of the kids in the home came to me and said, do you really come from the township? You know. And the township is the area that Black people during apartheid were allocated, and mostly that's where they stayed. So I said to her, yes, initially I thought it's like a joke because we have jokes where we say Black people don't swim. I just thought she was making fun of me, you know, and she said no, because people like us don't do things like this.

That's true.

And that bothered me, you know, I realized that she was serious. She had a sense of self-disbelief, which I probably had as well growing up and watching Wonder Woman and Superman, the cartoons, and thinking they're amazing, they're epic, they're saving the world, but they're flying around. Nobody around me flies. They don't talk like me. They don't look like me, you know. And I tell you, I came home and it just really bothered me, you know, as a mother of 2, and I wondered if I was doing enough to show my 2 boys that help comes from within before they looked elsewhere, to show them that it doesn't matter what they look like, where they come from, they too can step on top of the world, you know. Um, and, and that's where my climbing journey started.

I want to ask you something important here.

Yeah.

So you're teaching your children that, but who taught you that there's no boundaries?

Wow. I was raised by 2 amazing women. My mother, who only went up to Standard 9, but could sell ice to an Eskimo, really. She was just— actually, she's alive. She is amazing. And she had 7 girls. She grew up in an era where women were not allowed to own property. So I remember my mother buying property and asking the brothers and asking friends, male friends, to actually have it in their names with the hope that they won't keep the properties. And she had 7 girls because the environment around her said, Ellen, you need to try because the boy will give you the security. And she tried 6 times. 2 of my sisters are twins, and she decided it was enough. And with that, she always came to us and said, you can be anything. Don't let anybody tell you that you can't. And she took all of us to the right side of town in terms of education. So she gave us all the best education she could, and I absolutely applaud her for that. And she would always emphasize whenever she came home and she said, the sky's the limit, used to be her thing. And I know that somebody reminded her that, Ellen, you don't have a boy, you know. So my mother is my superhero, really. And my grandmother— so my grandparents were missionaries and they just— she had a big field that she made us all during the holidays cultivate, look after what she was growing in there. And every time she harvested, because she was a pastor's wife, she would go around and give food parcels or whatever she would have harvested. to people in the church that needed it. So she had a social conscience. And one of the things that her and my grandfather used to say, and when I was young I didn't understand it, they always used to say, if you don't live a life of service, that is a life wasted.

Wow.

And those 2 women really showed me what was possible. You know, with my mother, the sky is the limit. I've debunked that because when I got onto Everest, I found that the clouds were beneath me. So the sky isn't the limit because we can go above the clouds and we need to teach our children that we can do more. We need to aim higher, you know? Yeah.

Okay. Now, I still want to go even back further. How did your mom accumulate the money to buy property?

Like I said, she, she could sell ice to an Eskimo. So every time there was— there was— she had shops. She initially was a secretary, I believe. And she quit. She started doing quilts and sewing and selling. Then she had shops in the marketplace. The one thing that I learned from her is she believed in property as an investment and not cars. And so she had our house and she bought a house, a few houses, you know, close to us. Put people to rent in there and the rental money used to buy another. She probably— she has about 13 houses and 2 shops and a school in the township. Her strategy though, I don't agree with. She made sure it was in the same location where she was so that she could see where everything is.

I agree with that. I agree with that. You know what, Sarah? Can I get your mom to come on my show? As we say here, your mom is a kick-ass woman. Wow. Yeah.

But she— yeah. And the one thing, though, that my sisters and I didn't really like about her is she would take us to the most expensive schools. We never— we were never called out of class because fees were not paid. Fees were always paid. never give you money for tuck shop. She's like, there's bread in the house, there's peanut butter and jam, take that. And she's unapologetic about that.

I love her. I love her.

Yeah, so that's my mom. Yeah.

I am serious. I would love to interview her for this show because she— you know, we have to go back. We have to go back and look at how we developed our values and beliefs. And I don't think that we do that enough. Whether they're good or bad, we need to examine them and see if we will pick them up and embrace them, or whether we're going to throw them away.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

So I just must meet your mom. I— oh my gosh. Okay. So you decided to do this. You— how are you teaching your children? Are they having peanut butter and bread too?

Unfortunately not. I'm like, I can do better. But I don't know if now that as I'm growing older and I'm looking at them, I'm thinking maybe my mother's way was the right way, you know. But the one thing that's been consistent is my mother always used to say nothing replaces hard work. You know, be diligent, work hard, and you will get there. And if it doesn't work out, figure out why it didn't and learn from it and keep going. And the power of resilience has served me well. You know, I came to Johannesburg really Um, with that, you know, social conscious, and, and, and also the knowledge that what I put in, I definitely will get out of whatever it is that I'm doing. If I don't get it today, I'll get it tomorrow. If I don't get it today, it's not, uh, it's not a failure unless if I fail to learn from it, because it's always a success.

Again, a perfect, perfect proverb. You know, I see so often, even in my own house, where failure becomes— takes over and doesn't allow you to see what you learned. And one of the things that you said, it's the way you said it. It's the power behind your words, not just the words. It's, you know, I will succeed. Don't, don't get me wrong. Or as we say in America, the Black people say, don't get it twisted, sister. I will get this right. I will do it.

Absolutely.

Yeah. You take anything that's thrown at you and you come at it like, oh, no, no, no, this means success for me.

Absolutely.

It's clear in talking to you.

Absolutely. I mean, the testament is my Everest journey. I'm not sure if you're aware that I actually summited on my 4th attempt. I went, I went the first time in 2014, and I think on the 3rd or 4th day there was a big serac that fell and an avalanche that killed 16 shepherds, and the mountain was closed, and we were all told to go home. And I remember I just believed strongly that that was my year. I was meant to be there, you know. And to see this, I had read about people dying on Everest, about bodies. We all have read this. We've seen documentary. But to actually see the bodies being fished out of the Khumbu Icefall, that freaked me out. And somebody sent me a message to say, Figure out what you are meant to learn from it, and that will inform how you need to move forward. And that has been a blessing for me because I sat down and reflected. The people that died, it was their time. They were a lot more experienced than I was. They probably were a lot more deserving to be on the mountain than I was because I was an inexperienced climber, first time on the mountain. But their time had come. So it just reminded me of the agency of what I needed to do to leave my impact on it, to make— to ensure that I give that service that my grandfather always used to talk about and make a difference. And so I came back home and I started this ritual, which I now do every time I do a project or things don't work out the way I'd planned. I write down what did I learn from it, what was successful in that expedition and what didn't work out. So I didn't summit and people died unfortunately, but I learned my own strength in a way, what I needed to improve to climb better. I got more experience than before I attempted it and I realized that I was doing a lot of gym work in terms of preparing for Everest that year. And people that were runners and cyclists that were doing a lot more cardio were stronger at high altitude, in high climbing, in climbing. And I came back and I did exactly that. And the next year I went back stronger. I went back different, a lot more wiser. I had climbed in the Himalayas after that incident happened. And I got there and I thought, this is my year. And unfortunately, in 2015, you probably know this, there was an earthquake in Nepal that killed almost 9,000 people. And I was in the Western Khumbu, so between Camp 1 and 2. And again, the mountain was closed. I mean, we lost probably about 22 people at Everest Base Camp. And I came home. But you must understand I came back to people that thought I shouldn't be on the mountain, this is not our thing, you know. And that also, in realizing that 16 people died, they say, oh, this, this, you don't have to, you tried it, you don't have to do it again, you know. So you lose more and more people, the smaller circle of people that are thinking what you're doing is great, go ahead, and encouraging you, you're losing those. As, as you become unsuccessful. You can either choose to let that bring you down, and, or you choose to learn from it, use it as a stepping stone that it is in order to move forward stronger and better so that you don't only survive, you actually thrive in what it is that you're doing. The other thing that's, that's just important, and you know, if you can see that banner behind me, it says Summits with a Purpose. Is that since I started climbing from Kili to now, everything I do, I use it to raise money and awareness, you know, for education, educating the African child, because I believe that education is the equalizer. So I build digital libraries and physical libraries. I've built more than 10 libraries because when When you look at it, there's actually a quote that I saw, I think it's from an unknown, which says, if you are planning for a year, plant rice. If you're planning for 10 years, plant trees. But if you are planning for 100 years, invest in the children's education. I think if 100 years from now my great-grandchildren are still having the same complaints that I have today, then I would have failed. So this is my small way of giving that gift to the next generation and ensuring that as the world continues to become a global village— I'm talking to you because of Clubhouse. My kids are studying from home. They are no longer competing with the child next door. They're competing with your grandchildren, with your children out there. How am I making sure that my child is not a second-class citizen? citizen in this global village. It's through representation. It's through making sure that they're educated, giving them a fighting chance. I can go on about education. I'm very passionate about it. That is one of the other reasons why I kept going. I think it's just important for you to know why you're doing what you're doing. What is the purpose? Because if you know why, it's easy to know how to navigate it. It's easy to get up and say, it didn't work out, I'm going back. And I did exactly that. I went back in 2017. And for the first time, I was able to see the summit, but I didn't summit. I was 99 meters from the top. And the winds were bad. We didn't choose the right weather window. And my Sherpa and I decided, let's go back to Camp 4. This is in the death zone. You look very scared. Are you all right?

I'm scared listening to you.

Oh my God. Yes, our Sherpa and I are coming down to Camp 4. This is in the death zone. So that's between Camp 4 and the summit. What we didn't realize is that—

what does Camp 4 mean? And somebody, um, Anna Poole, who's a friend of mine, a member of the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches, is listening in. Hi, Anna. Uh, if you know why, it's easy to know how. So true. Yes.

Thank you.

I'm listening to this, it's like listening to a Robert Ludlum novel, and I'm trying to make notes, but I, you know, okay, I'm gonna have to play this back because I, I wanna— you said if you, if you plan for a year, you plant rice. If you plan for something, you plant trees. And if you plant for— If you plan for 3 years—

no, if you plan for a year, rice. Plan for 10 years, trees. Plan for 100 years, invest in the children's education.

Invest in children's education. Okay, I got it.

That's my 100-year investment, because when you educate one, the chances and probability of them educating their children is much higher than if they didn't have education themselves. It has an impact on poverty, it has an impact on crime. It's really— there are many things that we could do, but that's my thing. That's, that's what I believe very strongly is the one investment that my mother put in me that's enabled me to see the world the way I see it. It's enabled me to create the impact that I'm creating because she invested in my education, and, and I want to give that back.

And so I want to go back to something you said. God, everything you're saying is so powerful. Um, the ritual that you do, I want to write— I wrote down, um, so you look at what you are meant to learn from failure. What was successful and what did you learn? And you do that every day.

Is there anything else you do? So if it's like every day, like in the morning, I obviously pray, but I do a lot of affirmations, you know, just to pump myself up. And I exercise every morning, either I do a run or Or I have a personal trainer that I do via Zoom now with all the lockdowns, um, that I do religiously. Um, and, um, and I drink— yeah, I don't know if this is relevant— I drink, um, a glass of warm water with, um, garlic, ginger, and turmeric. I heard something about this.

This is good for your heart and your weight, something I heard.

Well, it was introduced to me by my mother. I just like, she said I must do this, I must just do this. And this was after I had an accident which landed me in a coma and she came to look after me and she just started giving me this. After I recovered, I just continued doing that, you know.

Wait, let's go back here. You had an accident that put you in a coma and you still climbed Mount— this— to reach the summit?

Yeah, yeah.

So after the detail you left off, let's circle back here now. Yeah, what?

Yes, so I'll go back. So I attempted in 2014, then I attempted in 2015. One of the things that I probably didn't mention is, uh, most of the expeditions I was funding myself, so I made a decision that I wasn't going on holidays. I was buying less stuff that I really didn't need, and I was saving up because I probably wrote about over 200 proposals and I wasn't funded. Some people said, well, no Black woman had done this. Some, there's just no funding. It just, you know, there was a lot, you know, and I just, I think it made me resolute and just pushed me to show them that I shouldn't be judged because of what I look like or I don't have enough testosterone, but because of my ability to climb. Because people have looked at it and really said, maybe you can't. Not because of what I look like. And I made it my mission that I was going to do this so that the next young African girl that wants to do this is not told nobody has done it, is given the chance to actually fairly and squarely do what they love doing because they are not—

How much does it cost to do something like this? I mean, I am so naive. I just thought you just put on a pair of hiking boots and get some warm clothes and you go.

No, no, no, no. So Everest is not necessarily— it's not necessarily are really cheap, but I think the permit is about— it's now about $11,000. So yeah, so, um, it's, it's between $50,000 and $60,000. Some people pay more than that. Um, yeah.

Why?

Well, there's only one highest peak in the world, so they use it for tourism. It contributes to their GDP, um, you know, in terms of the permit fees. Um, but for the expedition, the logistics, um, you know, they, they prepare— you actually climb over 2 months, so that's 8 weeks. So it's all the food that they would have prepared, all the guide that would take you up, that's all included, uh, in there.

Wow. Okay, I am so naive. Okay, so what does it cost in total?

So between fifty to sixty thousand US dollars on average.

I'm speechless. Okay, this show is about learning. I just learned major. Okay. There.

So yeah.

How did you accumulate that just from saving?

Um, yes. So the the first expedition we I was partially funded. The first expedition. Then I Added my own funding. The next expedition, because the first one was closed, part of it was the permit fees were covered by what I had paid before. So I paid much less and I negotiated. My negotiation is part of my job. I negotiated because I went with the same outfit. The third expedition, I had to pay— oh, the third expedition, I used the same permit, but I added on to it because my original permit was $10,000. Subsequently, the permit became $11,000, so I had to add $1,000 and obviously pay for logistics, which was also substantial. It's the reason I went in 2014-2015. I couldn't go in 2016 because I didn't have enough funding. So I was saving up in 2016, which is the year that unfortunately I fell off my mountain bike and landed in a coma in 2016. Then 2017, I went back and I didn't summit. That's when I went all the way up to the South Summit, which is 99 meters. From the top. Makes sense? You look a bit confused.

I am not confused. I'm in awe. That's okay. Okay. No, I'm not confused. I am getting it. Wow. Okay. And so you're able— if the only thing I do wonder, if you don't make it to the top, then some of those fees can go to the next try?

No, no, no. So the reason 2014 they allowed us to They, they allowed us to use the same permit fees. It's because the Nepal government shut down the mountain.

Ah, okay.

So in 2015, there was an earthquake again. They shut down the mountain and they said you can use the same permit fees.

Okay.

But logistics and everything else— so of that amount, only 11,000 is, is saved. 2017, when I went and I couldn't summit because of the weather, I lost everything. So 2019, when I went back, I had to pay the full amount.

So if the government takes an action, you can negotiate, but if Mother Nature takes an action, nah, you're out of luck.

That's a risk that you took. Absolutely.

That is heavy-duty risk. Okay.

Yeah.

And you're being in a coma didn't affect Did it affect your subsequent attempts?

No, it didn't. You know, I, yeah, it didn't. Thank God it didn't. I remember when I woke up from the coma, it was really about— I didn't think about climbing. I just wanted to walk, quite honestly. I had quite very bad head injuries. I mean, I had my helmet. I think God saved me, but my helmet was cracked badly. And I started walking. The only thing the doctors said is don't get back onto the bike because if you have another impact, it may be problematic. I always make a joke to say they said, you know, they won't be able to put Humpty Dumpty together again. You know, and so I came out. I got injured on the 8th of August 2016, was in hospital, I mean, coma, then ICU for a week. And end of August, I came out of hospital and I came home and I started walking. And October, I started running. And November, I was able to run a full marathon. So when I did, this was— it's called the Soweto Marathon. And I went back to my doctor to say, if I could run 42 kilometers and finish, surely I can still climb. I think the poor man just thought, you know, he's not going to argue with me. He says, like, you know what, 3 weeks before you leave, come and see me and let's see what we can do. And I went to see him 3 weeks before I left and I went back to attempt in 2017. You know, look, I could have broken my legs and I could still walk, I could still run. So I just thought that, you know, I still had a chance.

You know, it's not often that I'm speechless, but let me tell you, Sarah. Okay, so we're getting in comments like crazy here. Anna says— and Anna is a tough lady, I love her— she says, Sarah, you are truly, you are a A truly extraordinary woman. I can see how you would be an amazing executive coach. It would be hard for your clients to make excuses not to reach their own potential once they know your story. Oh my God, Anna, that is so funny. I love that. And Lenny, who I met on Clubhouse— Lenny, hi! It's Lenny. Says, um, he was on Clubhouse with me last night. He says, as a nature-based leadership coach— because he does climbing also— I love Sarah's story. Can she tell us how her mountaineering experience has impacted her coaching? That's the question.

Yeah, I, I think, you know, climbing in general, not just for my coaching, for my life, is— it's, it's given me a new perspective and a new way of doing things. It's allowed me to appreciate the right partnerships. If you look at Everest, you have a certain type of Sherpa or guide that takes you up to Everest Base Camp. If you want to go further, that may not be the right guide for you. you. You need to actually get the right partnerships to get to the top of the world if that's where you're going. It's allowed me to appreciate leadership, whether it's servant leadership, you know. It's allowed me to appreciate successes in what the world may see as failures. Winston Churchill says, never let a good crisis go to waste. Like, he is so right if you really analyze that statement. It's allowed me to appreciate my strength and the fact that giving up is never an option. Really, that I say with such conviction because had I given up, whether it's at the first attempt, second, or third, I wouldn't have been able to make history. I wouldn't have been able to show a young girl like me that it doesn't matter where they are today, they too can step on top of the world. I'm grateful and humbled that they will be able to take that extra step because I dared to do that. It's also allowed me to say no to things that are not serving me. You know?

Yeah, yeah.

And I think it's realizing that if the summit is that important to you, what are the things in your life that you need to let go of? Life is about choices, you know. It's, it's, is this serving me? Is this allowing me to actually achieve my purpose? Is this allowing me to achieve my summit? whatever that is. And it's made me appreciate more and more what we were initially talking about before we went live, the spirit of Ubuntu, I am because we are. Appreciate the fact that nobody gets to the top on their own. Teamwork makes the dream work, they say, and that is so true in climbing. You see our pictures on the summit, selfies on our own, But not too many people get up there on their own. There are so many. There's a whole group of people that ensure your success. Just make sure you have the right people, and more importantly, make sure you are the right person to ensure other people's success. You know, we always—we all want to be in an A team, but are you an A team player? Because the A team. is not made in a vacuum. So I always try and show up. And I know somebody told me recently something which I've adopted and that I'm like really helping my clients with. It's about being VIPs and appreciating that we need to be visible, intentional, and present at all times. You know, are you visible? Are you intentional? And are you present. Because in business, you may lose money. On the mountain, it will cost you your life. It will cost somebody else that is in your team their life. And I think that is such a blessing, you know. And more importantly, this is going to be probably one of the last words that I'll give you, is it's allowed me to appreciate God more. Because if you sit up there and you see all that, how can you say there is no God? It's not a concrete jungle, it's just natural. It's beautiful. Nights, stars are like little fruits in trees up there in the darkness. You feel like you can just walk in and grab something. The sun comes up, it's just amazing. It's been a humbling experience for me. me. So that's a beautiful question. I don't know who asked.

Uh, that's Lenny Knowles. Uh, I think that's how you pronounce his last name. Um, he's been following me in Clubhouse, and he is just remarkable in his contributions to sharing knowledge in both of my Clubhouse groups. So thank you for that question, Lenny. You know, I swear, listening to you, I am so humbled. You know, I, I'm joking, but I'm quite serious that I'm learning so much listening from you. I feel like I'm before a Buddhist.

No.

Buddhist is the right term for a woman who has such sage knowledge.

Thank you.

And you have it. Oh my God, just thank you, Clubhouse. Um, how, Sarah, how do you, how do you handle a leader who is resistant to success but once says that they want the success? How do you coach them?

So resistant to success, but they say they want success.

Yes. I, I always, I always go back to the behavior that they display does not allow them to be successful. It doesn't allow for trust. It doesn't allow interest. But they keep working at it, but they're— they just don't— they It's sort of like a conflict. You're working at it, but you're not working in the right way.

And getting in their own way.

Yes, exactly. Exactly. So how do you work with leaders that display that?

I think the most important thing is to go back to the definition of success. What is success for them? You know, like we were talking about Proverbs, and a lot of leaders that are mostly like that, it's either my way or the highway. If it's not done by me, you know.

Yes.

It's appreciating the fact that if you wanna go fast, you go alone, and if you wanna go further, you go with other people.

Yes.

It's maybe going back to why they're in that position. Many times I've found that something must have happened that let them down and now they need to control everything. As a result, success that they so much want, that they deserve, that they can potentially get 10 times over is slow to come because they're not being open to the support around them. I touched on the point that nobody gets to the top of the world alone. There's a lot of other people that would have supported them. It's just going back to why they are where they are and helping them to obviously look at what they could do differently and how it would affect their outcome. Many times I start with strengths. What are their strengths? I did mention to you that I'm a strength coach. I think many times when we lean into our strengths and partner with other people whose strengths are what we're not necessarily great at, we are able to achieve more. Because if we do— if what we do naturally, we focus more on that, the success that we are going to be able to achieve is insurmountable. If you alert the person to the fact that they have strengths and other people in their team also have strengths, so instead of worrying about spending 100 hours so that they can be perfect at what they're weak at, they could just trust somebody and there's a collective, they'll be able to go further. But it is definitely a process, but it starts with what are you great at? Can we focus on your top 10 strengths? And let's look at what are other people in your team's strengths? What are they strong at? And how can we actually harness their strengths in order to achieve the success that you've defined? And I find that a lot of leaders in that respect, they respect the team's strengths and it improved relationships as well. Because they're able to trust that in terms of strategy, I'll trust that person to be able to do that, you know. And, and in terms of, um, futuristic— so I can show you, these are my top 5 strengths. I don't know if you— oh, can you see that? Uh, futurist, uh, responsibility, achiever, strategic, and learner. I know that there are people in— developer is like number 10. If there's somebody in my team whose developer is number 1 and the project that we're working on requires somebody that has got developer, I'll work on the strategy and lean on them to actually work on developer. We're able to achieve what we need. a lot more quicker. There are certain clients that are set in their ways. They've done that for a longer period of time. Sometimes you start on smaller projects. Can we do this? Can we try this on a smaller project? Once you achieve success in a smaller project, they get the confidence to actually move forward to bigger projects until they realize that You know, um, together we can go further and trust in the team. Because if you don't trust the team, why did you hire them? You know, it's as simple as that.

You know, originally, uh, this interview was going to be talking about workplace equity and equality. You've shifted to the challenges of leadership, and I love it. But I do want to ask you Because you have such wonderful wisdom. What do you see as a solution for what we're experiencing? And this is a big question of what we're experiencing here in America with the inequality in the workforce.

Yeah, so I've never worked in the US, and this will probably be from what I've read, from what I've seen and, you know, probably some assumptions based on what I've seen. But the one thing that maybe I can tell you from a South African perspective that when I visited the US, I didn't kind of see is we freely talk about black and white issues. And it doesn't matter where you are. And I believe that stems from the truth and reconciliation that happened Because we were able to— did we solve it? I don't think so. Maybe not completely. But there was almost permission to talk about it openly. Like this happened. Like this is racist. Has it eradicated racism? There is still systemic racism. But are we comfortable to call it out? Very much so. And it doesn't matter. I'm not calling it out only when We've got black friends. I'm calling it out irrespective of where I am, you know, and it's comfortable. It's comfortable to have the uncomfortable conversations, you know, and I think it's the way that we continue to move forward, which I found not necessarily the American way of doing things. They were like, oh, but we don't talk about that. But it's there, you know. I was following the George Floyd incident and now it just blew up and I just thought, okay, wow, you know, it's really— it's open out there and everybody's talking about it. People are taking a stand. And it wasn't just people of one color, it was diverse groups of people. That was exciting. And I think that's what the world should be like. We all should call out wrongs. Irrespective of where it's coming from, whether it's coming from black, yellow, or red people. And it's when we are united that you actually shame the bad apples within us. You know, the one thing that is very clear, I don't know if you follow the South African history, is that we still have a lot of wealth and a lot of the big companies and a lot of people with positions are still people that are white. And, you know, how are we making sure despite the government coming up with ways where we are ensuring diversity through EE and through other plans where they're saying we need to have so many women, you know, so that there's like redressing the past, that we still have a long way to go. And I have a responsibility when I'm given that position to show up, not because of the color of my skin, to show up and show that they can trust people like me to get the job done. And I think many times we don't all take that responsibility. I just want the position and the money. But what we don't realize is how that is affecting the people that are coming after After us, because I was able to summit Everest. Somebody like me, when they are looked at on the slopes of Everest, they would be given the benefit of the doubt. So what is it that I'm doing in my position that will ensure that somebody like me is trusted with that position? And and and sometimes we just sit and blame one group. I think we also need to take responsibility.

I totally agree with you, and I love what you said because I noticed, you know, in my company workplace equity and equality, you know, the way that we train is through a no blame, no shame, let's open the dialogue.

Yes.

And I'm finding here through the horrors of the murder of Floyd, the phoenix that's arising is the ability to have conversation. And yet there are still people who I love who say to me, CB, should I say Black, African American, people of color? I'm not quite sure. And I, I say that with all love, that these are people that I love and just are so highly concerned that they say the right thing now.

Yeah.

Because they don't want to offend, they want to embrace, but because we haven't spoken about it for centuries in an open way that allows for everyone to contribute to the conversation, there's still that question of About how do I say, or how do I ask a question? And that's what my company is trying to eradicate.

Yeah.

Any way that you can say it in a way that's non-insulting is important that we hear it. It's important that we're able to discuss it.

Yeah, absolutely.

How else can we learn? And I always say my goal is not to get you to change your mind. My goal is to provide you with information for you to decide wisely. And, and so I say to people who are white— now we can say white, we couldn't say that before, we had to say Caucasian— my Caucasian friends, the term is Black, the term is white. It's white and black. And soon we're going to get to gray. And soon we're going to get to lighter gray. And soon we're going to get to— I don't see the color. It's not going to happen in my lifetime. But I certainly want to be part of the oncoming lifetime so that people will get there as well. Absolutely.

You want to be the catalyst.

Oh, I'm definitely a catalyst. And I love being brave enough to be a catalyst, right? Because that just takes a lot, a lot out of you to do that. And so I'm now saying to my white friends, it's okay to say Black in the United States. It is the correct term. And we don't use African American now because we're not from Africa. And we have Blacks from all over the world. So let's just say Black and white, and we're getting towards uniformity. So I love it. And oh my gosh, we're almost out of time. time, and I really want to talk to you so much more. Tell us, um, tell us what you're doing in your coaching in terms of who are you coaching, who should reach out to you, uh, and what else are you doing in your life. And you have like 5 minutes to tell us.

That's absolutely no problem. So I'm an executive coach, um, so I do help, um, you know, executives that want to move to the next C-suite. I help young executives be VIPs, be visible, be intentional, and be present, and be very clear in terms of what it is that they would like. I'm a strength coach, so I also help— I try and focus on women because I understand it so well. I've been there, you know, to just appreciate their strengths and their space and lean into it in order to manage their weaknesses. I also go for small businesses as well. The other thing that I do, I'm a motivational speaker, so I do a lot of speaking engagements where I inspire people to reach for their Everest. Mount Everest itself is not for everybody, but we all have our own Everest and reminding them that they are amazing and extraordinary. The other thing that I would love to do with you, I guide with a colleague or business partner of mine. She's the first South African woman to summit Mount Manaslu, one of the big mountains in the world. We guide women up Kilimanjaro, Everest Base Camp. The trails have given me so much and I want to share with other people. So we walk through your training, uh, we then walk with you to the top of Africa, and it's a life-changing experience.

Wow, I'm afraid of a little hill.

You know, Mandela says that, you know, it always seems impossible until it's not. So never say never.

Okay, okay. I, I think the gauntlet has been thrown at me. So I love this. Are you going to start a company that— or do you have a company that trains women to climb?

See, yes. So, so we do have a company, uh, we just haven't been functional because of COVID but I'm actually going with some ladies. We have mountains here called the Drakensberg, so we're doing, um, a, a hike up the Drakensberg in June, um, because traveling locally is, is opened up. We're hoping to go to Everest Base Camp, uh, with a group of women in, um, in, in September. And I have a group of women from the US that I'm also taking to Kilimanjaro in 2022.

Tell, tell, do you have a website for this?

I think if you contact me on my website, www.saraykhumalo.com, and I'm able to give you all that information.

Yeah, okay. Can you put it in the chat for people?

Absolutely. I'm not sure if you can see it there.

Um, but I think people that are watching can see it. And Anna Poole says Emmanuel Acheo's book Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man is excellent on this topic as well. So yes, recommending a resource for us. Thank you, Anna. Um, so I don't know if they can see it, but, uh, Anna, can you tell me if you see Sarah's website in the chat so that we know. If not, please reach out to me and I can connect you with Sarah. You can connect with me on LinkedIn or send me an email, and it's real simple. It's cb@cbbowman.com. So So I really want to support this because I think that she said she doesn't see it. So, okay. So everyone reach out to me and let's see if I can put my email address in here. It's cb@cbbowman.com. Anna, can you see that?

Yes.

See yours. Okay, so, um, we— I will make sure to send that information out to you if you get it, because I would just love to see— even though I'm a chicken, um, I would love to see a bunch of women go up the mountain with Sarah. That would be so exciting.

Yes.

And what would happen if they were all coaches?

That would be amazing. I would love to learn from them.

Oh my gosh, would that be exciting! Oh, I'll see if also if I could sponsor a little bit of that. That would be amazing. Okay, we've got about, um, 3 minutes left. Yes. What would you like to tell us that we don't know about you? And Anna says let's Let's get a group together, CB. Okay. Yay! Anna's doing some amazing work. Anna, what's the name of the country that you're doing some work in that's struggling greatly right now with social unrest? She's doing some amazing work to help people in this particular country, and I hope that she puts it up so I can see it.

Yeah.

Tell us any last-minute words about coaching, about climbing, about the work you do in other fields. Your— have you done a TED Talk yet so that we could— okay, she just put it in, and I'm not sure I'm going to pronounce it right. Myanmar.

Myanmar.

Okay, I'm sorry. Myanmar. Myanmar. She's doing some work to help a lot of people that are suffering there right now. So if you're interested, reach out to Anna. I'm sure that she could use your help.

So, so the last words— I think I've said a lot— is, uh, just, um, you know, the work that I'm doing.

You haven't said enough.

I haven't said enough in terms of these summits with a purpose where I would I would absolutely love to build at least one library, digital library, in every country on the continent. And that is Summits with a Purpose, because I do believe in education and I know I cannot do it on my own. If there's anyone out there that's interested in educating the next generation of Africans, please join me. Let's do this.

Absolutely. And are you also going to do it across other countries? Because I know somebody that's doing that for young children in India. Her name is Ali.

Absolutely. I think if we— if there's somebody that is actually doing it outside of the continent, I would love to collaborate because I'd love to learn from them. I used to— I built 5 Mandela Libraries, which were physical libraries. but now I'm building digital libraries with iSchool Africa. And really this— I mean, that's where we are with the lockdowns. Children are going to be left behind. It gives them the digital literacy which makes them work ready for the future, and it also allows them to, you know, to see the world differently and educate them in the process. So, yeah. What—

And we're over time, but what— guys, stay with me a second. What does a digital library look like?

So the digital libraries that we're building, the NPO that I'm working with is iSchool Africa, www.ischoolafrica.com. And what we do is we get these iPads and then these apps, digital apps that we put onto the iPads. Comes with the earphones, and it's managed centrally where we make sure that the teachers are trained, the devices are serviced for as long as they're kept at the school, and we continuously add new tools and apps for the kids. And we are starting with early childhood development, so primary school. from about grade 1 to grade 7. So teaching them numeracy and literacy especially. And we are looking at doing that also in Liberia. We found somebody that we are working with that is in Liberia. Hopefully we'll be able to expand out there.

I have the friend that I spoke to who's doing work in India. Her son has developed this amazing app that teaches, uh, early childhood children— I think it starts at age 5— how to open their own business.

Oh wow, that is amazing.

Amazing. And I, I'm going to put you in touch with her. But you know what, I got so caught up in this I forgot to end the show. Sarah, it is— it has been Such a pleasure. Such a pleasure to have you on the show. I see you, my friend. So good morning. And so, um, audience guys, I don't even have a secret to tell you other than get in touch with Sarah. Find out about what she's doing for the children of our world. And hopefully you'll be able to add something to it. In the meantime, this is CB Bowman Live, and I'll see you in a few minutes for my next new show. Bye now. See you next week, also on Tuesday. Thank you so much, my friend, my new friend. I love you. Thank you. Uh, let me just see how to end this.