Challenges of the C-Suite with Bonita and Mark Thompson

Stand closer to you, I guess.

Uh-oh. That's nice.

Hello, everybody. I am so sorry. Welcome to the world of technology. We are running 5 minutes late, but we're going to make up the time by having 2 exceptional guests. So you are now on CB Bowman Live, and today's topic is Challenges of the C-Suite. Welcome, everybody. And I'm just laughing hysterically at how things could go wrong with technology.

I'm so thrilled that things are going so right, CB. We're all here right now. So we are so delighted that you're doing this program, and we so appreciate the thought leadership that you show. So we're happy to be here and support your amazing community.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Well, I don't want to make you nervous, but this could reach over 7,000 people on LinkedIn.

Wonderful.

Wonderful. We enjoy having them in the conversation.

We'd love to talk to each and every one of them, and we'd be supremely disappointed it if it were fewer, actually. So we're on— we're all on Zoom calls and StreamYard every day. And what a great way to connect with people you'd never necessarily get to meet in person.

Absolutely. I think it's much stronger than standing on a stage and talking to zillions of people. You know, you don't get to really see what they're about, see their face expressions, see where they live, and really understand them. So listen, everyone, I just want to welcome again Bonita and Mark Thompson. They are extraordinary people. I am actually, because their resumes, their bios are so rich, I'm going to ask them to introduce each other. So thank you.

I'll introduce Mark first.

That sounds like a plan.

Mark has been given the title of the number one, the world's number one CEO coach. He coaches CEOs and C-suite professionals all around the world, and recently 24/7 with COVID because it's just been so much demand for C-suite coaching due to the pressures that people are under. Marc has also been a part of the Stanford— Stanford— what is the name of the institute?

What?

Well, it's a university. It's a little thing across the bay.

I went to Berkeley.

She went to Berkeley, and there's kind of a thing between the 2 universities. What's that little school across the bay? And I get that. I know you're huge. And she studied under Janet Yellen, the Federal Reserve Chairman, at Berkeley, University of California, Berkeley. So she's She's hot stuff and I'm from the farm across the street. So, uh, I love it. Venture Lab.

Venture Lab. Thank you. I couldn't think of the name of it.

We do ventures in Silicon Valley too. That happens here.

Benita and I are going to stick together because I'm going to be speaking at the alumni annual conference for Berkeley.

So—

Oh, wonderful.

Wonderful. It's 2 against 1, Mark.

Well, it's more than that. You guys are so many orders of magnitude. They have parking spaces around University of California back when we used to convene at actual locations, you know, back in those days. Back in the day. And they have what, it was like NL?

NL, which stands for Nobel laureate. And you can only park in that parking place if you have a Nobel, if you're a Nobel laureate.

Are you serious?

Yeah, no, no, they have so many Nobel laureates and that's one of the perks of getting that award is that you get parking. It's parking.

Yeah.

We don't pay them, but we can give them parking.

you created world peace, you get a parking space. Yeah, that's really— that's a great cop.

I'm gonna work on that. Okay, Mark, you get to— oh wait, you didn't tell, uh, Bonita, you didn't tell us about his past. How did he get to where he is?

How did he get to where he is? Well, he has a background in journalism, and he has spent an entire career helping corporations get the word out to their investors regarding why their company is so powerful. And he has spent the last 20 years coaching CEOs on multiples of issues, not just investor relations, but also in human resources and in staffing and multiple issues. So it was a natural transition to go from looking at investor relations into coaching CEOs and C-suite professionals.

So, you know, we have to teach our friend— we have to not teach, we have to tease our friend Marshall Goldsmith. Because are you encroaching on Marshall's space coaching all these C-suite people, Mark?

Well, Marshall Actually, when I was in the C-suite myself, which is actually also part of my past, which was I was most recently the Chief Customer Experience Officer and then head of schwab.com, which was really the first financial services online site that really took— really got steam in the '90s and now has $3 trillion in customer assets. So I got to know Marshall during that time. when he was helping us at Schwab. And he introduced me to this idea that I could really have impact as a C-suite coach. And in fact, that's how we started working together, was that I'm not infringing on the space, but in fact collaborating, which is going to be the theme of our conversation today, where there were 2 executives at Walgreens, the $130 billion retail company, that needed to be groomed in a sense towards the CEO's job. They were in competition with each other for that job. That often happens at companies. coach for both. So Marshall and I kept on meeting each other in the C-suite where we were helping sometimes opposing executives into the corner office. And then we started calling each other and said, well, we did this at Walgreens, we could do this at Pfizer, and we could do this— it's all these amazing, amazing companies. And so then Marshall is the one who anointed me number one CEO coach in the world. And as a colleague, we call each other every day. We have the daily question process that we hold each other accountable for. So he's been a mentor, a friend, a coach. We cohabit with each other. The 2 families actually have a place together in New York City where we share our love for Broadway and for coaching and having impact on the C-suite. So I will be talking to Marshall a little later today, and, and he's such a great spiritual, I think, also leader for all of us in the MG100, which is how you and I met, right? This is how we all met as a part of this great community. Bonita, it comes to all this work, she was just rated the number 5 top educator in the world by the Global Gurus. She is in the doctoral program at the University of Pennsylvania right now where she's helping influence what we've learned now from her academic chair right now. She's developing research around a whole new construct in research in leadership for the first time ever.

Do you—

can you believe— and she'll talk about this— it's the first time there'll be any research on collaboration in the leadership literature? It exists in sales and other fields, as she'll talk about. It's never been done before. Adding to the body of knowledge. And she was perfectly equipped to do this because her resume includes helping transform human resources departments since we met each other, what, 40 years ago. She has been able to contribute to the transformation at Bank of America. She was one of the first people to lead off a new industry with biotechnology and starting Genentech, hiring the first 200 bioscientists. She had the opportunity to transform the way we think about serving our employee workforces through the very first intranet that she was project leading at Levi Strauss. So you go through this incredible 30 years of experience transforming human resources, you were either excited or terrified to see her come because she meant that they were going to engage in change. And that's where our 2 careers collided. I had the opportunity to graduate from communication and marketing and into the role of being an operating executive, running operations, getting to know boards of directors and high-powered investors. And she had 30 years in human resources. So we wrote what became a New York Times bestselling book together for the first time 12 years ago called Admired, talking about how you can really be admired, respected, and valued for the work that you do. And CB, you're one of those people we admire most. And she's one of those people we admire most.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. You know, I have to tell you, I, I'm tearing up because— and you know, I'm supposed to be a real hard woman— I have never heard— and I'm gonna go there— a man talk about his wife's work with such clarity and love. I am just— I'm tearing up because It's so needed and so appreciated. And so I'm gonna vote you Second Husband of the Year. Mine is the first.

Yay!

Boy, was that the right answer.

Great job, CB, good job. Yeah, you went from being so generous to us and made a great segue there. So I think that was double.

I did say.

Yeah, you may not be a hard woman, but you are a badass. So great job in stepping up in all the places The relationships that you have on the platform. I'm so— I am so proud of Bonita's work, and I think this is— it is a time now to really be celebrating collaboration. And one of the reasons why we show up today this way is the same reason we showed up together at the Conference Board earlier this year. And we've been showing up all over the world, from Abu Dhabi to Singapore. We've been doing co-presentations Because we think it's supremely ironic to talk about working together and collaborating and helping people learn to become better teams in the C-suite and then showing up there waving our own flag as individuals.

Well, I have to say, when I first reached out to you, Mark, to do this program, I was kind of nervous. I said, you know, he's, he's a big shot. He might say no. Just ready yourself for this. And your response was, only if Bonita can join me. And I thought, oh my God, what a fabulous answer. Um, I wasn't planning it that way. I was actually planning on having her separately, but this could be very cool. So let's go, let's go.

Let's do this. Let's do this.

Let's talk about collaboration together.

Yeah, what does that actually look like? Yeah.

So listen, here's my standard question, and I want to do that, but I really want to spend time talking about Bonita's work because I think it's so important in many facets. So let's start with what do you both see as the 3 highest challenges that people in the C-suite have?

Why don't you kick that off?

She's going to let me kick that off. Thanks, thanks for the encouragement and the permission at the same time. I am— I see our work in our collaboration together as being a person who goes deep with the research, and that collaboration really extends to her helping to think about the new frameworks in which we can help the C-suite perform at its highest level. And so in a sense, I'm like the clinical doctor and she's the research physician who's really finding out the new breakthroughs in neuropsychology. She'll talk about some of that neuroscience today. And I'm every day applying it with the relationships that I have with boards and the C-suite. And I'd say the 3 difficult, most difficult things are something that we talked about just even before this session, which is we've been dealing with, depending on how you want to count it, what do we have, 2, 3, 5, 12 different pandemics? 5.

I'm going with 5, but I think I'm almost up to 6.

Yeah, I was gonna say, so that's a lot of change for the world to absorb. Now, not that change was already a stranger to the C-suite. You either— I'm constantly reminded about how Gandhi said we have to be the change we wish to see.

Mm-hmm.

A lot of wonderful philosophical conversation about how change is the only ever-present status that we have to deal with in our lives and in our work. And that happens really in an extreme way in the C-suite, because what it means is that her or his job in the C-suite— let's say the chief executive— her days are numbered and his days are numbered. And I think we do forget.

We think we're talking to power there, but we're actually talking to a person in a footrace to manage and embrace, at best, And as we talked about at the Conference Board in New York, that person, the CEO, is the only person who has 12 bosses. So you don't have just one boss. If you thought it was hard to manage one boss, imagine having 12. So to a large extent, it's like running for a political office because you have to lobby and find out where the strengths of each of your board members are and find out the strengths of your staff. And so you're the bottleneck of the funnel. Yeah.

So let me just ask you, when you say 5 bosses or 6 bosses, are you referring to people sitting on the board, or are you also referring to employees and colleagues, or how are you defining that?

Yes. So at a minimum, you have the people who are sitting around the boardroom table, and at a maximum, you have all the other stakeholders. That are essential for the success of this, this business. And this organization doesn't sustain unless it can somehow inspire and recruit people to make the voluntary choice of coming to work for you, coming to do business with you, and coming to be a governance or fiduciary role on the board of directors. What we were talking about at the Conference Board was you have to deal with these different stakeholders in very different sets of metrics. That are all with a very crude instrument of your success or failure. We can kind of promote and pay you, or we can fire you. There's not that much coaching that is involved, and there's not that much advisory that there can be involved. So when we do our work together in the C-suite, it comes at the opportunity of getting to know each and admiring and loving and respecting each of those stakeholders in the context of their contribution to the long-term growth and change of an organization.

So let me ask you, it occurs to me that— and I'm a little bit of a rebel rouser, so I'm going to start up something. It occurs to me that people in the C-suite did not recognize the bottom of the ladder as stakeholders previous to COVID-19. It seems like now they realize that without the general employees that hold up the organization or hold up the triangle, that there is no company. When we look at what happened in the meatpacking industry to those that were doing the slaughtering, packing, as they became sick with COVID the whole organization closed down. Do you think there's more realization? More alignment, more respect with this lower level or entry level?

I think that COVID was really an eye-opener for everybody. And to me, what we really learned from the COVID experience is that a company is not just its buildings, because we were able to dispose of the buildings, right? And it's not— we'll drive by and we'll say, oh, that's Apple, pointing at a building. But that's not Apple, right? And we can even look at the people and we can say that's Apple, but that's not just what it is. It's also this interconnective tissue that allows a company to operate. And that's what has been so hard for leaders to try and grapple with. We haven't really explored that interconnective tissue because it's not just one person sitting in a bedroom at home who becomes the company. But it's the collection and it's the partnership of everybody in that company that becomes the company. And so this thing that we can't see, we can't touch, we can't smell is really the essence of what the company is. And to me, I find it very interesting because that connective tissue are things like trust and respect and collaboration and cooperation and teamwork. That's the glue that keeps a company together. Can't see it, can't put it on a balance sheet. It has no monetary value, but it determines whether the company is profitable or not. Or even exists in COVID.

Yeah, and I would just add, I think that is what is driven by a strong central core purpose. And so the distinction that you're describing about that they didn't get it before COVID COVID came along and they get it now, I'd say is very much what happened is that COVID, as Benita said, provided a very, very profound and punishing shove in evolution and the culture of these organizations and would make painfully transparent where there isn't that sense of shared common purpose that requires the integration and engagement of the frontline workers with the administration and with the customers. In other words, there wasn't a unified voice in the example that you're sharing, and it was a problem before, and there has been— it's been exposed in the past, but it's never been so universally profound. I'd say there are many businesses that got that memo earlier and many businesses that operate different. You know, our colleague Gary Ridge from WD-40, here he is just in You know, the oil business, he gets the highest engagement scores from those very same employees, and he's selling oil. Why is that? Because he's really been very much engaged all along in realizing he doesn't have a business if it weren't for exactly those people you're talking about who are serving customers and delivering a quality product. And that's where, you know, you didn't see about him in the headlines in a negative way, because this is a— I guess we'd say crises really create the test. And transparency. You know, there's no place to hide, and that's, that's not a bad thing, actually.

So here's the question. If a company— we won't say which company, but let's say, and we're comparing large and small companies— if you haven't created this interconnective, interconnective tissue, yeah, And you haven't been able to engage previously. Is there any hope in making a change now? I mean, have people just totally lost trust in organizations?

Not even close.

I would think that there could be more trust now. We are finding that this face-to-face interaction that we're having, the opportunity to be asynchronous in our work, is allowing us to partner all around the world, not just with the people who are sitting right next to us. And that has its own challenges, as you know, CB.

Yes, yes.

Because finding a way to partner with somebody who's from a completely different culture is—

It's already difficult.

It's already difficult, but now we have to do it through the computer. We can find that trust through our respect of other cultures. We can find that trust by learning a lot about the people who we work with and finding out what their motivations are and what they value and how they feel about things. And we just need to take the time to do that.

We just talked to a chief executive who said that she now is able to parachute into the kitchenettes and basements and back rooms of people's home. And I had another chief executive who's leading the transformation of a technology company who said, you know, I didn't before always feel like I had permission to get personal. And now I'm saying, is that— whose guitar is that? And whose bicycle? Oh, and then the little one comes in and jumps on your lap. And rather than being stuck in the back of a factory waving as the entourage of the chief executive passes, or be stuck at a microphone in the back of a big ballroom, all of a sudden, like what we used to call Hollywood squares, you know, where there used to be a picture of all the celebrities, you're now side by side, just as we are on this call. side by side with power and heard by that power and inescapable. And they're going to take a screenshot and say, hey, I was just on with CB and I'm speaking to power here and I'm getting a chance to air my views. I'm not pre-curated either. It wasn't like who could step up to the platform or to the microphone. You're on Zoom. You're here, right? You're right there. So I'm not saying it's a replacement for the personal contact, but I will say that I will give a big shout out for the executives who are willing to engage. They're able to do it with greater frequency and in fact, maybe even some greater intimacy because we're— it's very equalizing. And the other thing is, as a coach, I spend a lot of time trying to get people not to talk over each other. And on Zoom, you can't have more than one conversation going at the same time, which means it really sucks for a social context.

You get—

Now you can have these little rooms and so forth. And yet, isn't it nice to have what the Native Americans used to call like the talking stick? And I'm going to hand that to you. The Aboriginals would say like, okay, it's your turn. No, no, no, no, no, no, Benita's talking now, Mark. She's still got the stick.

Yeah.

And so I think that is maybe one of the unintended powers of this capacity to digitize. That means that you could be in Mumbai Today, I was in, I was in Dubai this morning. I went to Karachi after that, then I went to New York City, and here we are in Silicon Valley now convening in the same room.

And with somebody from Pakistan on the call.

Sorry?

Somebody from Pakistan is on the call, is on the—

Okay, so welcome. We spent time in Karachi with Engro Corporation, which is probably the biggest and probably best, best-known company in Pakistan. And they have a fund that they've been using to help people get through COVID. Pakistan has actually come brilliantly through COVID in a very interesting way.

You know, it's interesting. I'm going to go back to executives feeling like they can't infringe on the person that they're talking to and really getting to know them from the inside out. And how Zoom has allowed this connectiveness.

Yes.

Well, you know, I have a little 4-legged who's probably with his dad right now, a Cairn Terrier, a redheaded Cairn Terrier, and he lets you know too. And what's happened is that our laws started to prevent us from really connecting with people because we couldn't get too personal with people. Now we've got Zoom that's doing the flip. And so you can make comments about the environment that you see people in because it's a natural part of the conversation versus in the office you couldn't because it's too personal.

Right, right. You're right there. It's a front row seat in that. Wow, is that a Star Wars helmet? Where was that? A home project or are you a hobbyist?

And we're even seeing companies do things like ship a box of food to each of the people and then have a chef teach them how to cook. And so they have events.

We send bottles of wine. We've been doing that with some of our clients, saying we're going to have wine time on Thursday at 5:00 PM. Please join us. And then one of those clients happened to be Gallo, and they sent their best wine to each of the people. she would open it. She's one of the rare female, uh, vintner, uh, winemakers, and she's talking about how she came into this world of— that was dominated by old men, and how she came and showed up with this whole new methodology for, for the wine. And tell me what you think because I'm now online with you. We can, we can clink glasses against the screen. And, uh, I say that this is a great—

Wait, we have to get Mike My husband involved. He used to distribute wine.

Okay, there you go.

Oh yeah, put this guy to work as your teammate on this and it makes it even more personal. Also, the thing I liked about this was that there is almost always a narrative or a backstory around— I mean, there's a ritual to opening a bottle of wine saying, you know, this is a celebration. I'm spending time with CB and it's not just another call. Let's have a drink together. And you actually, you don't have to drink the wine if you don't drink wine, and a lot of people don't. But the narrative and the backstory and the tradition of saying, I'm going to open this bottle in your honor so that we can share that moment together. Another great example from a chief executive who's such an awakened leader is Margo Georgiades, who's also part of our Goldsmith 100. She has started— she's now running— she's CEO of Ancestry.com. She's former president of revenues at Google, so she had a huge, you know, extraordinarily big job and where she had to have diverse communities of people that she was advertising to and with. And then she went to Mattel, and then she was recruited for the turnaround of Ancestry.com. She just sold the company for $4.6 billion, and she created this enormous value out of 2 things: out of the community of knowing what your ancestry was and how you're connected to everyone else on Earth, to someplace in Africa, the Olduvai Gorge, and how we could also maybe learn from our DNA to protect ourselves from viruses and from disease and all the rest. And when you go on a call with her, she has a tradition— I, I meet with her every weekend and 50 other chief executives. I spend 7 hours Hanging out with these 50 chief executives every single weekend. And when you see her every single time, she has a different virtual background behind her. So she started this tradition of saying when she meets with her team, A, she— the first thing she does is express gratitude for whatever they're doing. It has to be real, as Bonita will talk also about around collaboration. You can't fake this stuff. It has to be Gratefulness for something tangible that you've done for the purpose of this organization, not just for me. I'm not your favorite student or employee. I'm doing this because I believe in the vision of this organization and we have shared values. So I'm grateful to you for your contribution this week to that. I'm glad I could be meeting with you today. And the picture I have in the background that you see of this, of these toys on the beach, is where I grew up, you know, on Lake Erie, she'd say. And this is what my home and environment looked at the time. And what do you— what's in your background? So once we got through with parachuting into the kitchenette or the basement or the bedroom, she says, no, bring some memory and make it your virtual background. And that's how we're going to start a personal conversation. Because not because it matters to me, but because it matters to you.

And because it strengthens that connective tissue, that glue that holds us together even in the midst of a pandemic.

Now, how would you like to work for that person in a crisis? When you're isolated, when you're going through COVID, when there's so much fear in the world right now, what do you need from a C-suite? You need empowerment and confidence and trust.

Warmth.

Warmth.

Yes. Humanity. Yes.

I made notes. I made notes so I could do the same thing. Hey, listen, I want to talk now. Okay, so we talked about change and connectedness, and we're going to go back to that. Tell me 2 other things that you see are strong concerns in the C-suite.

Well, I'd say building a bench. So the primary job of a leader is to recruit and develop other leaders. Her job is to find people who will want to own the vision and the purpose in their own unique way as much or more than she does. That the leader's job is to find a place where he can rally a team around outcomes, because if you get big, and the only way to get big is through and with the work of other people. Benita and I are very much interested in collaboration and teamwork. You should talk a little bit about how nobody does anything worthwhile alone.

Wait, wait, wait. I'm going to save that. We have one more challenge, and then we're going to go to Benita.

Okay.

Okay.

So this idea of building that bench with a shared vision, and some people call it succession planning. I call it building a bench because it really is about having people who share a vision but own it and frankly are better at it than you are. And I'd say that the other thing that is the biggest challenge right now is balancing regulatory requirements. You hinted at it earlier, you know, how personal can I really be with you? and still not cross the line in terms of being too personal or referring to the wrong set of personal traits that become very much a part of your DNA or a part of the way you culturally roll. That our job is not to recruit and develop people who look or sound like me. The job is— because then why do I need other people on the team, actually?

Yeah.

What I need is a choir of voices. It was my birthday yesterday, and a year ago—

Happy birthday! Thank you.

2 years ago on my birthday, Benita and I were presenting at Harvard with Carol Kaufman at her Institute of Coaching. And she brought in an extraordinary author and thought leader. His books are a must-read. And both of them work together. It's a husband-wife team as well. She knows with depth, he knows how to present with character. He's conductor of the Boston Philharmonic.

His name is Benjamin Zander.

And Benjamin Zander was there, actually they were there as a team, and he was explaining to the group how to sing Happy Birthday to somebody that you care about and that you want to energize. And he had everybody sing it the normal way first, and then after talking about what a conductor does, Which is really tap into the fact that the conductor isn't the expert in each instrument that's played in the orchestra. That each person—

In fact, he might not even know how to play—

That instrument.

The instruments in the orchestra.

In other words, a conductor doesn't play the tuba in most cases. A conductor, you know, she plays the piano really well, is great at composition, knows the role and the impact of every instrument, and wants to draw the best in his or her work in every context in the orchestra and isn't making all the decisions because it really can be up to the, maybe the first chair in the violin section, and she's making a decision about what expressive needs in that particular sonata.

Mm-hmm.

So you're looking for the, this full-out creative input, everybody playing full out around a common purpose. In this case, is to express Beethoven, let's say, and to do that with great emotion or artistry. And she or he, the conductor, is trying to pull it all together and herd these cats who are performing at such a high level. That's the role of the chief executive. And that's what I mean when I say diverse points of view, because the oboe doesn't sound like the trumpet, and it's not supposed to.

Yeah.

Yeah, it sounded like the trumpet, the whole thing would be—

That we wouldn't need the orchestra.

Yeah, exactly. You know, we forget, we forget the components of music. Yes, that make us all relaxed and happy, but we forget that it's based upon different things coming together.

Collaboration of experts coming together to create this extraordinary sound, which is greater and more profound than any of the individuals.

Absolutely. That is a perfect lead-in to Bonita's work on collaboration. How do you like that setup, Bonita?

I love that setup because the orchestra is a great analogy of what we're striving for, is bringing out the best in every single person on the team, and that every person on the team benefits from a great performance.

That's a great point.

That's a main feature in trying to find collaborative leadership.

It's not a zero-sum game. It's not, we do it at your expense. It's not because I get to do this shot and you can't do a shot.

Right.

We all benefit from you being the best tuba player and me being the best oboe player. That's when the entire team succeeds. And that mutual beneficial awareness that a leader can create among the people rather than a competition, but more of a, this is How we all benefit from the goal being successful is really a key component. And I'm very interested in how the leaders can establish that.

And draw it out in people.

And draw it out in people. That's what brings out the best in each individual because they know exactly their role, when they need to come in, when they need to depart. Like the poor guy who plays the timpani, right?

That boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

He only gets a few parts in the whole evening. But boy, if he comes in, it can really make that dramatic piece. But he has to remain silent the rest of the time. That's the sort of collaboration that we need in organizations as well.

And it's a brilliant subtlety that Bonita is pointing out here, because I think there's a lot of confusion between competition on the one hand, having the edge to get stuff done, but that's zero-sum with sharp elbows, which doesn't really have a place on it within a team, on a C-suite anymore. It's more like an orchestra on the one hand. The other hand being collaboration, what gets to be sometimes seen as being compromised. I don't want to water it down.

You said that. Yeah, because I think that that's— that is a big concern of leaders. Yeah, they will be seen as weak.

Yes, exactly.

In fact, you're seen as strong when you know how to collaborate.

Exactly. This is something that Benita is now really exploring with her research in the leadership literature. And what it means is the guy on the timpani, the guy who's playing that very unique percussion instrument, what is not obvious perhaps to the audience is that he or she is having to count measures until their role drops them in. They have a critical role.

It could be a very long time.

But it could be minutes. or it could be 45 minutes, but if they aren't ready at that moment to be the singular voice or an additive voice at that time, they have to pay attention. They have to be bought in. They have to believe in the concerto and their role in it.

Right.

And so our roles are different, but they're not the same, is I guess what I'm saying, is that it's not a zero-sum game, nor is it a a lack of edge because you still have to be at that moment ready to play full out and have your voice heard.

So, Vanina, tell us about your work specifically. What are you finding out? Why don't people collaborate other than what we talked about? And is there a certain gene that allows people to collaborate? You know, and then— wait, wait, more, more, more. How can, how can we use it in building workplace equality? Because it seems like it's a big missing piece. So I'm throwing all that at you at once.

Yeah, we're, we're still learning a lot about how to best collaborate in an organization. And specifically, I'm looking at the leadership perspective of that. What can a leader do to create a collaborative environment that's filled with trust and respect, and bringing out the best of each person on the team? And how can we do that through systems as well? How can we better, build a better channel that people can communicate with one another for better collaboration, so that you clearly know what your role is and that you know what the role of others are, and you can bring in the best of yourself as well as bring out the best in others. So that is a skill. But what we've— what I've recently been reading about is the work that's being done in neuroscience looking at how there are certain people who, because they are always thinking about that mutual beneficial solution or always thinking about the other person, it actually changes the neurons in our brain. And there are regions in our brain where we are much more likely, when the neurons fire in that area, we're much more likely to seek a mutually beneficial solution. And it's very closely related to the emotional centers of the brain.

Mm-hmm.

And so to be able to see on an MRI whether somebody is going to seek a mutually beneficial situation or something that they're just trying to win, that is phenomenal to me because it means that those neurons that play together or fire together play together more often. We can practice. Collaboration is a practice like yoga or piano. You have to sit down and practice collaboration. You can't just take a 3-hour training course and assume that the person, oh yes, I have that and I know how to calculate this.

Check.

Check. It is something that we have to practice and we have to bring other people in. We have to seek mutually beneficial solutions. And we have to communicate that there's a mutually beneficial beneficial solution. And we have a lot of goals now that are aligned with that. Racial injustice is just one of them, that once we can bring out the best in everybody, once we can seek mutually beneficial solutions, we're not trying to win over the other people, we're going to have much better racial justice. COVID-19, if one person is left on the planet with COVID-19, we are all at risk. And so that is a collaborative problem that requires collaborative solutions. We have to come together. We have to seek the benefit of everyone on planet Earth. Climate change is another one. We will experience more and more severe weather if we don't come together and seek collaboration and seek a mutually beneficial solution for everybody. So I think we have a lot of situations that are coming our way. Many of the crises that we're dealing with right now are because we have not perfected the skill of being collaborative. And I think the first step in being collaborative is understanding that we are not all the same, that we are very different from one another. We have very different experiences. We have different interpretations of those experiences. And so understanding that, you know, I may really like skydiving and you prefer piano playing, it doesn't make either one of us right or wrong. It just means that we have preferences, that we have values that are different, and that we can use that to come up with a comprehensive total solution rather than a fragmented solution where, no, you have to do it my way. That's just seeing it from one perspective. We want to see from all the perspectives. So that's what we're striving for in collaborative leadership, is bringing out the best in each person. One of Marc's favorite shows is Star Trek, and it's his favorite show because he says When somebody goes berserk for some reason, you know, they've been taken over by an alien species or whatever, people don't stop and go, he's weird, label, and then discount him. Instead, they say, why is he behaving this way? He's never behaved this way in the past. And they try to find solutions and work with the person. I think that's what we're striving for. I think when One of the huge problems that comes from racial inequality is that we label people. Oh, this person is white or Black or Native American, and so they behave this way. And those labels don't always fit individuals. But when we start to see that everybody is an individual with unique experiences and unique ways of perceiving those experiences, then we can start to respect them and bring out the best and harvest the best and, and work in a collaborative way.

So, wow. Okay. I'm not even sure where I'm going to start because it's so rich. But here's where I want to start, is that you said it takes practice. Are there exercises that we could do to increase our ability to collaborate? And can you share some?

Yeah. That's a great question. I think first of all, understanding that everybody is different and trying to find out what other people value without judgment. I know, CB, you're in my Life Process Review Club. And every week we get on the phone and we talk about what we want to achieve and how well we've— what actions we've taken to achieve that. And in that process, we learn a lot about other individuals and what they value. And there's no judgment about the goals that they're trying to achieve. There's only support. And I think that sort of work environment where I understand that you want to write a book and you want to spend more time with family or whatever the goal is that that person has set, we don't judge it. We just say, oh, I think I have these tools in order to help it. So, Understanding that other people have different values, taking the time to sit down with them and find out what those values are, try to find out what goals they're working on and how you can be supportive to them. These are all exercises in practice and collaboration.

It's easier to focus more on difference than it is to go deep on appreciating and knowing why that oboe player is so gifted. and why that violinist has such a remarkable way of interpreting this piece of music. And Benita's work is inspiring to me in that regard, because once again, it's not a zero-sum. The work that we've done in Silicon Valley for our entire lives, they call us disruptors. And it's not because we want to be disruptors, although Benita has also been called a badass. She's been called a badass by Jim Kim of the World Bank as well. We have that on tape when she was accepted.

I love that.

I love that.

Right.

And the reason is because it's not disruption for its own sake. It's to say we all have very deeply embedded preconceived notions about ourselves and others. We have all this hidden bias. And that the innovator's dilemma— because I can't speak to racial issues at all, but I can speak to the innovator's dilemma— the problem with change is that we've not had a habit of realizing that is something worth doing, that it's always a problem to protect ourselves from, to brace for change rather than embrace our differences, to drive that change rather than be run over it. And so when we're trying to have a diverse workforce and include all these different voices, that that's the power. That's what Marshall Goldsmith— I held— Benita and I held this CEO summit 2 years ago in 2018 out here at Stanford. And we called it How to Silicon Valley. And the thing about it was that really struck people was how many diverse voices there were. Oh my goodness, I hadn't thought about—

We have people from all over the world who come here to invent and to find other people who want to invent.

80 different languages represented. And the diversity of those voices is the power of it. And it's not about being comfortable. It's about going deep and learning. about the power of the differences. It's about aligning them towards common objectives, not deciding that one way is right, but that we all need to be a choir to have that outcome. That we want to be the best orchestra in the world. That we're going to be— I think you were saying earlier, you're going to be the best life process review group in the world. I expect nothing less of you and Benita working together that way. For those of you who have not experienced this, what we're talking about, LPR, Life Process Review. Alan Mulally, who turned around Ford and Boeing, came up with— taught us all about business process reviews, where we have a whole bunch of metrics attached to goals, and then we come together as a group, as a management team, and share how we're doing. And red meant we really need help, and green means we're on our way, yellow means we're struggling but we got this. And that was a place to be fully transparent about our struggle to innovate and our struggle to make change happen. And he said, wow, you know, what if we applied that to a different customer? Why don't we apply that to ourselves? And that's where Marshall said, as his coach, it's like we're actually doing the same thing except the customer is different. The customer is how can we get over ourselves enough and open our heart to the unconscious sort of routines that we have? Cultural and otherwise, not because they're wrong, but because they can be so enriched by mixing the cuisines and by mixing the, the music that comes together that's greater than just what I have to offer as an individual. And so what's so beautiful about Benita's work is about, you know, it's not about suppressing or compromising in collaboration. It's about how to get the volume right and aligning the way we all contribute to the overall outcome.

I think these innovators are frequently spoken of as being humble, ambitious people.

Yeah.

And it's because they will ask thousands of people, you know, what do you think of my business plan? How do you think we could improve it? What's your perspective? I remember we were interviewing Michael Dell of Dell Computers, and at the time I was very pregnant. And he came up to me and his first question to me was, how can we use human resources to bring better computing to an organization? And he wanted to know everything from an HR perspective because he didn't have somebody right then who could answer that from that perspective at the time. And I think that that is what we're striving for. We're striving for that humility in the sense that we're always looking for your perspective, your way of seeing it. We still set a vision and we still find a mutual beneficial goal. But, and so in that sense, it's not compromise, but some can see trying to see the other person's perspective. We're all walking around with a different set of glasses on. And if we try to see the other person's through the other person's glasses, then we are going to find the best possible solution. And that's what's, I think, different from compromise versus collaboration. We do need to see it.

I think— well, I've just learned a lot myself. In starting Workplace Racial Equality, I put together a really badass group of executives. You know, each— we meet every other week, and I say to myself, oh my God, I don't want to do this. My, my way of being is to jump first and then figure out where I'm gonna land, and they're going into process and procedure, and I'm thinking, why did I put together this group of people? But you're right, you have to stop and listen because it can take you to greater places.

Right.

But it is so hard because it's your own sense of timing that is thrown off. Your ego is attached to a lot of it.

You have to put that aside. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's, it's frankly hell. But at the same time, I have learned so much. I'm so grateful to these men and women who've taken time out from their insane schedules to support the goal of the organization.

Through that understanding details of the process, they're also defining roles. CB, you're going to do this. Benita, you're going to do that. Mark, you're going to do this. In that definition, we can all be better players because now I can find— I'm going to put full in on what my role is because I know CB is going to hold up her part, And I'm going to hold up mine. I'm not going to let the team down. That is where people can bring that ego back in, is really fulfilling their own role.

If we don't— I'm going to let you guys coach me.

Well, we've never done coaching before, so that'll be great. It'll be a great experience being able to learn from you.

Coach the coach.

Absolutely.

I love it. Now, you also said, Bonita, the ability to bring others in and how— oh God, we only have 2 more minutes. And this is so fascinating. So I guess you'll both just have to come back. I mean, right. Yeah. But I want to get in, bring others in. How do you do that? What do you mean by that?

Well, that's individual. Each individual you bring in in a different way, right? Because it's a process of finding out what they really care about, what really motivates them, what they value, how they feel. And then you can sell them on the mutual goal.

Hmm.

If you don't take the time, you know, if you have— we've all had that salesperson, they just talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. And they are the best thing since cream cheese and they can do anything anywhere, anytime. And you kind of walk away going, gotta go have another call. But if a salesperson comes up to you and says, I really want to know about your needs, what you are looking for, what you want to attain, then we can describe what it is and they can give us a specific solution to our problem, we're much more likely to go with that person. That's called collaborative selling. And that's the process through which the customer and the salesperson define and come up with a solution to the customer's problem. And it's not just, I am the best thing since cream cheese. It's, no, this is the problem we're trying to solve. And here's the different ways I think we can go about solving it, which would you prefer, getting input? And collaboration is a process. It's defined in the literature as a process, and it's an iterative process. So we start out thinking this is the goal, and then by working together and redefining roles, maybe we change the goal.

Yeah.

Maybe we change the roles. So we are able to adapt and we're flexible. And that's— it's just like a bridge. If you make a bridge very strong, it will break in the next windstorm. If you build flexibility into the bridge and the ability to adapt with the wind, that's when you have the bridge that lasts 500 years. So I think that's also true in leadership. We want to build those bridges because people change too. Particularly, we're seeing that through COVID. I think initially everybody was I'm going to save the day. I'm going to find a way to— and now people are starting to really find the stress of the monotony, and they're finding it difficult to build that connective tissue in organizations. So I think we all need to look right now and support one another and find the roles and define it and be more flexible.

And I— And I met Nelson Mandela on his last trip to Europe at the turn of the century. We were writing a book called Success Built to Last. It was the sequel to Built to Last about organizations, and we were taking a look at individual leadership. And I conducted interviews with, with world leaders and met Nelson Mandela. He should have been the most angry man in Africa. And yet, what did he do? He rallied white and Black young and old, rich and poor, around a bigger dream that we could all play a role in and needed to play a role in. And who but he could transcend all of the horrible years of humiliation and pain to show us the way and make examples of the people of every background to our unique role in the solution, just the way Benita was describing. And I think this is what we see in leaders who are built for crisis and built for change. And, and we're just so thrilled that you hosted us today with all these amazing change agents who are being broadcast in on livestream. We're so happy to be a part of your conversation with the world.

Well, I'm looking forward so much to bringing you back. And I just want to tell you that you received a wonderful compliment from Chris Simmons. And Chris says, I was skeptical, but they are really good. And Chris really tells it like it is. He is the former head of D&I for PwC and, um, thank you, his own consulting firm. And we've spoken together at a few conferences and he's an amazing person.

Well, we're honored. It means a lot coming from all of you.

Yes, yes. Um, thank you, audience. Thank you, Bonita and Mark, for such inspiring and heartfelt and fun interview. And I am so much looking forward to both of you coming back, and I look forward to building an even stronger relationship with both of you.

Thank you.

We look forward to that.

Thank you. And to the audience, this has been CB Bowman Live. We'll see you next week. Bye now.

Bye.

Thanks.