Challenges of the C-Suite with Mitali Chopra, Episode 7

Hello, Mitali, how are you?

Hi, CB, so good to be on CB Live.

Thank you. So let me say hello to all everyone who's out there. This is CB Bowman Live and welcome to our show. Tuesdays we do Challenges of the C-Suite and I am so fortunate to have my very good friend and business colleague and MG100 colleague. We're just all over it. It's the power of women, right? Internationally.

Yeah.

So let me introduce Mitali Chopra. She is a kick-ass dynamo woman, so you're going to want to stay tuned for this one. Mitali, first let me say to the audience, disclosure, that you are on the board for Workplace Racial Equality. And as I said, a dear friend from MG100. Thank you to our friend Marshall Goldsmith for making sure that we all meet all these power players, right?

Absolutely. Thanks to Marshall. Absolutely. Yes.

So, uh, and, and I also want to say before you introduce yourself, on Thursdays Mitali, I, and Red Power and Andrew Novak. It's the dream team. We do volunteer work, uh, for new executive coaches on Zoom. And so if you don't know about it, please reach out to us on LinkedIn. It's called the Coach Connection. And we send out amazing information to support the younger coaches coming up in the world. So my partner in crime, Mitali, tell us about yourself.

Thank you, CB. It's such a pleasure to be on your show. I mean, really, really privileged. As always, in different forums we are working together. So this almost feels like we are having our regular chat. But thank you so much. You know, it's, it's nice to be here.

Just a Brief background.

I'm born and brought up in India, living in London right now. And yeah, I mean, I am an engineer and MBA by education. Started my career with PricewaterhouseCoopers as an IT consultant, went to GE and learned a lot about operational excellence and process excellence at GE. From there, I moved to Microsoft, again leadership roles, learned a lot about technology. With Microsoft. After Microsoft, I moved to GoDaddy in India and we set up their first international business in India. We grew the team from 12 people to 540 people in 2 and a half years, and I learned a lot about people. So post which, you know, we moved to London, set up the whole EMEA practice and the EMEA business. We were supporting 15 languages, 17 markets. Again, a very different exposure exposure and experience for me overall. But I knew business and I knew people, so that's where— that had been my corporate journey. And during my tenure with Microsoft and as well as GoDaddy, I was working with a lot of SMBs, and I realized that while they're very good technically at their business, one thing that they lack is the knowledge to scale their business. Everyone reaches a ceiling, and then after that, they just kind of, you know, struggle to find the next level. And that's where I come in with my business coaching practice. So I'm a franchisee partner with Action Coach based in London. And now I work with various kinds of businesses and help them scale their business as well as develop their leadership.

So, Mitali, of course, Mitali asked me what we were going to talk about today. I said to her, do your homework. And she said, I did. So she's just as smart as I am. You know, we're both at it. So Um, and so she said, but what specifically? I want to be prepared. And I said, oh no, I'm not telling you that.

And now we are live, so I'm like, okay, that's easy. Anytime. Go on, CB.

Well, the purpose of this is to have fun and to impart knowledge like we're just sitting in the living room chatting. So those of you that are out there and you have a question, um, please send it in by the chat. And, uh, if you miss any part of this, you can go on YouTube at CB Bowman Live. You can go on Apple Podcasts now and listen to it, and you can go on Facebook. So there are so many ways that you can catch this show. But of course, there's nothing like being here live. Mitali, you help people scale their business. So the question I always ask are, what are the 3 challenges that you feel the C-suite faces? And now, because you've told us that you help people scale their business, let's relate it to that. What are the challenges that people have regardless of the size in scaling their business up?

Um, so since you've asked a specific question, I think I can bucket it in 3 areas where, as per my experience, where I see the challenges for the founders, the C-suite, when they start scaling up their business. One is definitely, you know, besides the tactical goals and the targets for the years, enabling a long-term vision like Making sure that what is the purpose of this company, which the entire team is driven and rallying behind the leadership team. So that is definitely at the top, and you know, figuring out how to set up a very meaningful vision at the top. The other thing I would say is decision making. Decision making is a very, very challenging task because no matter how much facts and figures you have around you, finally it is a best guesstimate with an honest intention is what I feel. And before waiting for all the clarity to emerge, having all the answers, the leaders at the top have to take decisions, uh, because speed and time is of essence as well, right? So that's the second. The third, I would say, is empowering their teams. I mean, when we work together, somewhere at the top there is this Superman syndrome, you know, I know it all. I will let everyone know how to do it. But the thing is, that itself— so most of the time at the top, they are, they come. I think that's a very big blocker. And leaders who are more aware and start seeing teams being responsible, not responsible for the task, but responsible for the teams who are responsible for the task, are the key differentiators. So empowering and truly, truly genuinely empowering teams Is the third biggest thing I would categorize.

So, God, there's so many questions that I'm going to ask you now. Now let me get you in trouble.

When I, when I decided to come to your show, I knew I was in trouble.

On these 3 challenges, are any of them areas that you see women excelling in more than men?

Hmm, yeah, I coach both men and women. I personally don't look at that gender divide because, you know, that's a personal side. Although I'm not naive to believe that there is no difference, of course, you know, we are very wired differently and that's why the thinking process is also different. In business term, it just doesn't matter till the time you are Totally focused on what the outcome is. I think women are more— I have seen from my experience, again, this is purely my point of view— they, out of the 3 I listed, empowering teams, they are slightly better than men.

Yeah. Why?

I don't know, maybe a motherly instinct, you know, because they are so used to raising kids and then making their kids independent. And again, that's what— so raising them from they're young to teenagers to making them and making them independent, they have something innate to be able to let go and make people independent at their tasks. So maybe that's why. I keep thinking how and why, but of course there's some natural reasons and the others are, again, you know, they develop along the course.

You know, I want to More, more emotional questions overall. Yeah, I like what you said because I asked a man that question, and the way that I, I said it was, it's interesting because men are raised to play in teams, right? Women are raised to talk to each other one-on-one. They're more solo. But yet, when it comes to empowering the team, women seem to excel more than men. And so the question is, why is that when men are raised to be part of a team? And I think you just hit on something, which is we are raised to raise others and let go, let them fly, you know.

Yeah.

Get them out of the coop, so to speak. And that is actually an interesting parallel to empowering teams.

Yeah, I mean, I keep— while again, it's that gender divide, they can be— it might be the way we, the human, you know, how we evolving as to kind of, you know, gender human beings. So yeah, That could be, and that's what my take is on it.

Yeah. So how can we help men become better at empowering teams, especially since we seem to take a backseat in corporate America? Now that's a tough question.

CB, again, you know, for me personally, that's I don't see them as men and women in, in the workplace. It's— it is entirely dependent on a person's emotional question about it, and both are equally capable of raising that question and being more self-aware. One might be naturally like, you know, like 2 sports persons. Some have a natural talent, and then they— but talent can supersede the hard work, right? Like, hard work can supersede the talent. So yes, maybe women are naturally wired and they can be— doesn't mean that they're always the best leaders. Similarly, men might not be naturally talented, but the hard work can make them the best leaders out there. So yeah, as long as the individual is aware that this is something which will make business more successful, happy people, happy employees, more empowered employees, more innovation, more culturally connected people will also result into great business benefit and far-reaching impact to the customers, then it makes sense to do that, right? So I think we need to logically explain the way— again, we need to logically explain to people who get it logically, and we need to emotionally explain to people who get it emotionally. And once they, they understand that this is a driver of success, I think high potential, high performers kind kind of people I work with, they get it. And then they know in their own style, they start enabling that thought. Important thing is self-awareness, just understanding that this is important.

So, Mitali, you don't play fair because I wanted to see if you— that's why you're such a good coach.

I'm just being honest in what I really believe.

Seriously, there's nothing So let's take it out of the gender.

Yeah.

And let's deal with how do we get both men and women or men or women to empower teams better? What is it that we need to do? How do we know when we're not doing a good job?

Yeah. Oh, well, that's easy. You would know. You would hear it from left, right, center that you're not doing a good job. And vice versa is also So you would know, you might choose to ignore it. But a self-aware leader would know whether he or she is doing the right things and whether his or her teams are empowered. Teams will tell you in different ways and forms. They might not directly tell you, but their behaviors, their success rates, their numbers, everything will— if your, if your antennas are right and you're catching the right signals, you will know whether they are empowered.

That's important what you just said, that Even if you choose to ignore it, the signs are there. So tell us more about the signs again.

So I mean, the commitment to work, the success rate, how they're coming together, the kind of trust that team has, and how they're feeling about it. Whether you're getting simple things like how many sick leaves are you getting, or how many avoidance of work you're getting, how many excuses are you hearing in the team. will tell you if they're really happy in the team or not, right, overall. So there are a lot of signals. They might be really small signals, but you need to have that sensitivity to understand that the signals are there and what can I do. Coming to your question of how you can empower, I personally feel that all managers and leaders, as they progress from being an individual contributor to being team leaders and, and then, you know, senior team leaders, they need to become coaches. I don't think so. We need managers to develop teams who are competent and productive. Yes, you need that management, but you need leadership to get teams more passionate and focused. Like, that's the difference, and it's a delicate balance that one has to make. But to empower, you need to focus on both the management part and the leadership part. And if one can become a coach instead of being that boss, I think it gets far more easy. How do you get out of the way and help them be really, really successful?

So for you, the difference is there's a big difference between managing and leadership.

Yeah. Yeah.

Talk to us more about that.

So, I mean, we use this framework in, in my coaching practice. It's Management is all about creating competent and productive workforce, measuring their KPIs, numbers, making sure that the targets are met. Leadership is all about creating passionate and focused team, and there is a difference. So that's touching the emotional chord, and here it's touching the logical and the task part of it. So, so yeah, that's, that's the core difference.

How does a leader create passion and focus when they're supposed to be these really tough, non-feeling, indifferent people? That is, especially before COVID-19. Now COVID-19 says that the new leader is focused on caring, on values, on—

Compassion.

commitment of employees? How do you, how do you make that shift so fast as a leader?

I might tend to, because it is CB Live, I might tend to digress a bit. You know, I, it's my personal belief. I think these are all, it's a, the word digress, it's okay. Yeah, it's a human drama is how I see it. So there are a lot of these self-labels and society-driven labels that, you know, oh, I'm this, This person who is who doesn't care about emotions as human beings, as individuals, all of us are emotional during the journey of our growth. And you know this whole time that has elapsed, we might not, we might not show it enough, or you know might not admit it enough. But everyone, men, women, anyone, child, adult, super everyone is emotional.

Okay, yeah.

And, and I— it's the layers on top of it that tends to come in between of acting in a particular way. Heart of heart, everyone is very, very high on empathy. Everyone. And you can see that difference. It's the same person, if they see somebody, you know, some— something tragic happens or a road accident happens, they will go and help. That's empathy, that's helpfulness, right? So it's not that, and it might be a CEO of a company who seems to be. So I think it's it's more perception than reality that people are very you know uptight and all of that. They are. They might not choose to play on that emotion more, and they might choose to do more of an authoritative style of leadership, right? So when it is inherently there, what you're choosing matters. So in our coaching sessions, when we are working with the leaders, one of the things is like, so what are you choosing? And why are you choosing that? Most of the time, they're choosing what they're choosing is because what got them here. They have been a performer because that particular style helped. And most of the time, as an individual contributor, you need to be like, you know, you're in a race. So you have to showcase, you have to be out of it. But what they forget somewhere, and they feel that is the success criteria. And that's the success mantra. But as a leader, it's somewhere they have to take a complete U-turn and be the facilitator of that, you know, people and teams, and not be participative in that race. But, you know, maybe it's just that somebody needs to remind them, and kind of it's a habit which has already been formed over years, which is a habit based on success, so it's far more difficult to break that habit, right? But once they realize they are on a self-auto mode to get it corrected. Nobody, nobody really needs to come and fix people. No, no need. They all have it. It's inherent. You just have to remove a few layers. You have to just show them sometimes the mirror and, and the magic starts to happen.

You know, I love what you're saying because, you know, our friend Marsha wrote the book What Got You Here Won't Get You There.

Yeah.

And that's exactly what we're saying. And also there was a book written called The First 90 Days. Which is saying that the success values, maybe, but the success behavior for sure that got you to a point of leadership may not work as a leader. I had to learn that lesson myself. One of the things that goes with that is as a leader, when you speak, you can say the same sentence as a manager, You make the same sentence as a leader, and the leader's sentence, the sentence from the leader is going to come across much more powerful. And as you cannot veer outside these lines than as a manager.

Yeah, yeah, that's the reality. That's the reality. And one needs to understand how the— what is the rule of the game. Like Marshall always says, and I learned this from him, he says When you are the leader, your suggestions become your orders, whether you like it, you don't like it, whether it's fortunate or whether it's unfortunate. Even when you say, guys, I think this could be a great idea or this is how you can try it, the team starts doing it as if it was an order, right? So yeah.

And it takes a lot of hard work. I've seen that in my own business to have your top team Recognize that when you're saying, this is just something I am playing with in my mind, I really value your opinion, please speak up. They won't for quite some time until they get really get used to your style. And really, you have proven— it's up to you to prove it— that you have proven that you are welcoming their feedback and listening to the feedback.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you might not agree, but there is a way of saying, I respect your feedback, and here's what I'm thinking. What do you think about this additional information? Right?

Yeah.

So, okay, so now let's talk about, um, decision-making. That is so hard to do because you really don't want to be wrong regardless of what you do. How does a leader set it up so that— here's a weird question— how do they set it up so that they can be wrong?

I think you, you do the old pros and cons of a decision, just kind of, you know, plan for the worst and hope for the best. And once you have weighed that, oh, if it is wrong, what are the repercussions? Like, if once you have laid that down, sometimes we are more fearful about it than the actual things. But I, and I always advise them to write it down. Just writing it on a piece of paper, the pros and the cons, suddenly visually when you look at the length of what are the pros of taking this decision and what are the cons of taking this decision, visually if these are 2 or 3 line items and these are like 5 or 6, you know that the weight is on taking that, right? And after that, of course, you know, there would not be— if it was a perfect world where you exactly knew it is going to be right, you don't need a leader, you need a robo.

That's a good one.

Yeah, I mean, of course, if it is so mathematical, you take this decision and this will happen, why do we need a human leader? Because a robot can take that decision and a computer can make that decision, right? So decision-making, where it takes— where somebody has to take a risk, weigh the pluses and the minuses of the situation, take everything into consideration, and then with the best guesstimate and an honest intention, go ahead with it. I mean, we do that in our everyday life. We take decisions if If our child is not well, we do take decisions where to go, what to do. What we— we again, like I would say, we underestimate this complex machinery that the divine has given us. We are very, very capable as human beings, and we do the same things in our life, not realizing. But when we come to workplace, it feels like, you know, it's going to be some rocket science, which it is not, right? And the moment you start relating it into your day-to-day life You feel like I am capable of taking decisions. The worst case is it will go wrong. Yes, I am— the ownership of a lot of people is on me if this goes wrong. But what is— there are a couple of options, right? You take that decision, you don't take that decision. So either go for it or you don't go for it or do nothing. And for all these 3 things, you can always weigh the final outcome or the possible outcomes and then And then go with it. I mean, somewhere we need to trust something— our gut, our feeling, something you need to have that trust in— and then go for it. That's what leaders are for. It's a— it's— it— so it's just not the designations, right? The C-suites. It comes with a lot of responsibility.

And, and, um, what do you think about the idea that when leaders have a tough decision to make, that they not only look at the pros and cons themselves, but they bring in their advisors, their trusted advisors, their team, And not just sort of painted in a rose color, but have your team, your trusted advisors really look at the pros and cons with you.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. There is, there is no— unless and until it is something which only one person can make a decision on. And but if it involves a lot of people, if the impact of the decision would be on people, the more you include, the more the brains, the better the discussion can be. Your final decision would be, but having all the facts and figures and thoughts from multiple sources would only enrich the decision-making process, and which is valuable.

Why do you think we, not only leaders, but we as people— and I'm not talking about the difference between an introvert and extrovert— why do you think We— I guess it's fear hearing an opposite point of view or a different point of view than what we have. What causes that fear? Hmm.

Speculate here. It might be fear that, you know, there is something different. I personally feel every point of view is a gift in that decision-making process. Because every little point of view can help you make the right decisions. So getting different, divergent, opposite views will enrich the process of distilling it out. So yeah, leaders should not be— I think more than fear, I personally think it's ego. Like involving everyone, that comes in the way sometimes of not getting that view or not liking that view. It's They're not scared of it. It's just like maybe the ego.

Interesting. As I listen to you, I think back on paths, decisions that I had to make which would lead me down different paths. And I got different suggestions. And sometimes I felt like these, these suggestions are just going to delay me. And I never thought about it in terms of ego. So I might have to go back and revisit my reactions to suggestions.

I think this micro judgment of feedback comes in between really listening to it. So just like you said, as an example, just let— it's not that you have to make a decision people are giving you and being open about their opinions, views, and thought process, and each one of them are valuable gifts. I mean, again, what we learned from Marshall— feedback is a gift, and when you receive a gift, you say thank you, and that's it. Don't judge nothing. You can then analyze the entire set of opinions and then make your own decisions. You might still choose to, and it is absolutely fine, because that is what leadership is all about— what you pick and what you leave. But if you close the gate early enough, you might miss on very, very important things, because You know, it's just you, whereas a combination of multiple people and advisors can bring in very different perspectives, and that can again be very valuable to your decision-making.

But, Mitali, how did you learn this? Because I think what— you're laughing at me, but a very powerful statement: feedback is a gift. And I think that for me, feedback gets confused with criticism. So how did you learn to separate out the two?

I think it's so because I don't judge.

I have—

I, after a very long time, and I was not like that, I was like one of the top talents in every company and exactly the same thing. But when I learned more about people and things that drive them. I think just acceptance itself is a great thing. So it is not what they are telling you, it is what you are perceiving it to be. If you perceive it as a gift, you will receive it as a gift. If you perceive it as a criticism, your mind will— your defenses will go up because now you're handling a criticism, right? So our mind is very powerful to have the reaction to whatever action is happening to us. So the moment mind sees or believes it's criticism, the defense has to go up. You were not even able to get through it because now the defenses are up. Whereas if your mind feels, oh, this is— oh my God, so many gifts coming my way, you will really soak them in. You still might choose to throw away all of them, you know, you don't— you accept the gift, you say thank you, but some of them are recycled. even bend. So, but you don't tell the person who is giving you the gift that this is not a good gift. You always say thank you and take it. And it's important, like, you know, of course, jokes apart, it is very important to hear out the group of people who you have placed your trust in or who are part of your team and hear them out. Just hear them out, right? So I think it's, it's just like anything else. It's It's the practice. You have to build, practice it, and build that muscle, and then it becomes easier and becomes a natural way of handling things. So it requires practice. All I can say is just like, you know, when you started driving the car, everything was like, oh, am I going this way or that way? And then once you practice it enough, you can listen to podcasts, you can listen to music, and you can keep driving wherever you want to.

So Carla says, How inspiring. Thank you, Mitali. I agree, very inspiring. Okay, so you say it requires practice. Are there exercises that we can do? Practice.

When somebody— when you're getting into the exercises, get into a team meeting and ask for feedback, and then believe and tell your mind, wow, so many gifts. How many gifts did I receive today? 24 gifts. Wow.

So, so say to yourself, this is Christmas. It's gift opening time.

Yeah. And, you know, it might initially when you do it, of course, there's reluctance. Of course, it sounds funny. Of course, I'm like, this is not— I don't have time for all this, right? But you have a choice. You can keep finding criticism, you can keep missing out on things and Be where you are. That's fine. You can live that way. Or you can try a different way and say, okay, let me start treating my team, people who matter to me, their feedback, their opinions, their views as a gift, and then internalize it and then come up with a suggestion or a decision post, post I've heard them out.

Boy, a lot of work to do, a lot of exercise to do. I'm scared now.

I'm so tempted for a coaching moment because I would love to coach you in that. Like, what's driving you to believe? Because there must be something, and it's all deep-rooted, quite deep-rooted, because our guards go up because of our previous experiences that this must— this person, this person's view is a criticism, whereas she or he is my friend, so their gift is a good gift, and this has something else is not. And that's what our mind is trying to, you know, kind of filter out. And that's how labeling it and doing a lot of complex stuff to— for you overall.

But— Well, you know, I think— and I don't know if this is an excuse or not, but I think it seems to me that certain cultures tend to read it either as feedback or criticism because of their exposure in the world. And also because of their exposure in being raised from a child, right? If you are from a culture, and I think this is particularly true of my race, where we've had to fight so much to get our piece of life, that we see more criticism than we see feedback that's trying to support. Especially in scenarios where somebody just comes at you with feedback and doesn't ask for permission to give you the feedback, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And this can be true. Absolutely. I had a scenario where we were discussing this and says, no, this used to happen in my childhood. And I was always told, can't. And I said, are we in 1984? And the person had no answer. We are not. I mean, yes, we can go back and say because it was so in 1984 and that's why I'm like this in 2020. It's your choice.

I agree with you, except that I think America is still in 1984, to use your parallel. So we still have to watch. And I think many of us want to be able to accept feedback because we see it's of value to other people and perhaps other races. But boy, moving from that needle is a challenge, especially when you have the other coming at you constantly, you know, to keep that negative criticism in its box to allow for the positive feedback to override it.

Yeah, I mean, again, we can, we can discuss a lot about it. My, again, my experience, personal experience, I have friends from, very good friends from 56 countries now, and that's the benefit of living in London with such a multicultural and multinational, um, you know, people that you meet and work with. And one thing I've realized is that at a grassroots level and at a core level, everyone is same. Their experiences could have been different while growing up, right? So definitely, and that shapes them, and that shapes their— but at the core, everyone's same. So if everyone, and at least, you know, you can't change the world. So if you start with yourself and start removing that layer of judging people by, and just leave that judgment aside for some time, it makes things simple. And you tend to figure out what is happening because you are absolutely right that there is differences and our bringing up shapes us. But I think as individuals and human beings, it is our— it is a need of an hour to go internal and, you know, kind of go through a rinsing process and start looking at world with a new lens, maybe. And that might just change because how you look at things itself might change your internal world overall. You, as in all of us.

Yeah, I agree with you. And, you know, this is not Workplace Racial Equality Thursday, but I want to tell you that you have a really good point because I was talking to a member of the WRE faculty who is Black and Cuban, and her relatives are white supremacists. And she said she went and spent some time with them. And I thought— the first thing I thought was, didn't you fear for your life? And, you know, and she said no, because they were relatives. But what she realized in listening to them was it was really about they felt marginalized because they were no longer being heard. And I thought, what? And so it just, it just shows you what you're saying about there's some fundamental things that tie us together, whether we want to believe it or not. Yeah. Yeah.

Fundamentally, the core beliefs and the core needs of human beings are very similar. And there is good and bad, CB, I feel, in In any way you cut the human beings—gender, race, culture, boundaries—you know, just the geography, nations, or religion. Any way you cut us, there'll be good and bad in everything. It's your choice. I tend to focus on the good and ignore the bad. Life is too short.

Oh, I agree with you on that as we were talking before the call started. So okay, decision making—we touched on that. Long-term from the top of the organization, uh, tell us about that. What are you saying there?

Sorry, I didn't get your question.

Long-term looking at an organization, uh, leaders looking at the, the region or the direction of the organization is a challenge.

Yeah, so I mean, I work with a lot of fast-paced growth companies who are, you know, right now who have grown from, from a startup to mid-sized companies, and then they are finding their longer connections and visions. And that is somewhere where the leader, you know, is like so focused on the immediate goals, like to be the number one in next 2 years, 3 years, double the business, which are good goals to have, of course. But that doesn't always drive the entire team towards it. And that is when, as leaders, they need to have that purpose behind and, you know, kind of formulate a vision and a purpose, whatever the purpose and value, so that they can get the entire team to focus on it as overall purpose of being in that company. And sometimes it's difficult because nobody has trained them to, you know, kind of build visions. And vision is not a statement which can be put on the wall and that's about it, work done, checkbox. It is to be demonstrated, lived through, breathe, whatever. Like, the leaders have to absolutely embrace it for it to really become a culture in the company. So that's something which I find, especially high-growth environments, where they find it challenging. Me being an engineer and very logical mindset and very number-driven, I used to find it all fluff. initially, you know, like, okay, that's just like talk, right? So you just—

Yes, yes.

More about preaching things and it doesn't relate to you. And I work with a lot of, again, you know, very technical— because of my background, I attract clients who are more in technology background. So engineers and, you know, technical people. And this all to me also, but the more I have been associated with it and I've seen the graphs of the companies or where they were and where they're going with it, I realize it is There is a meaning, and it has a connection to business results as well. If you have a goal, you go and make it happen, and everything is very tactical. When everything is very tactical, there's a strain on people, and you would see burnouts, and you will see— because it's all tactical, it's all task-driven. Whereas people don't shy away from hard work if there is a bigger purpose to it. If they feel that I can contribute to this bigger cause, then the same task become part of the journey and the journey is more enjoyable, right? And that's how the results also can differ overall. So when there's productivity strain, there is results not coming and people burnt out and high attrition, all of that. And when we start looking at it, there is a deeper connection to because, and not because I'm saying that, we've interviewed team members and they have said like, you know, I don't know what's the purpose? End of the day, I take my salary and go, and, you know, yes, I have to do manage these projects, and I— that's it. Like, I'm not happy, or I'm not enjoying it. And when we go and dig deeper, like, what are they not enjoying? Like, when will they feel that work is— when it lacks purpose. Like, I do not know what am I contributing to. I'm contributing to more in the profit and loss account of the company, but that's money for the founders, right? So what am I doing? Whereas when you give that linkage to that, you are actually contributing to this project which will impact millions of people once this is done, that your stamp is on this particular product which will come out of it, and then they start connect the dots overall that why am I here and why am I working for it. So there is a connection. It might not be a direct connection, but there is an indirect strong connection of having a powerful vision to get not only to get your team going, but also to attract talent. Like, you know, people want to be associated for bigger, better, stronger causes than just like the number one companies.

You know, Mitali, I hear what you're saying, and I'm a little surprised that mid-sized companies are faced with this issue because it probably has to do with my lack of exposure. I came out of the big companies, you know, the Fortune 500. And it seemed like the purpose was always frivolous with that size company. It was some unknown person that we could read on the annual report their name, who made these purpose-driven statements. And me being in the middle of the triangle, I had no connection with it. And then the other thing was that they were constantly changing the purpose. But with smaller companies, it seems like you can have more of a unified purpose.

Yeah. See, initially you can definitely— it's a focus about it because the focus is all on growing the company and numbers and everything. And that's why it's not there yet. Once a company reaches around 250, 300 people kind of a company, when, when people are looking for it, 10, 20 people, 30 people, 50 people will rally around what's happening. There's so much to do. In that environment. But as the team size grows, there is a point when powerful vision has, has a start point. So all these large companies also, at some point in time, they started believing in it. Of course, you know, they still have that challenges in terms of making it a reality versus a statement on the wall. Or, but, but even in the mid-sized companies, they are now kind of getting used to believing in it Then implementing it and then living and breathing it over a period of time.

That's interesting because, you know, as I watch Shark Tank, it seems that the companies that are coming on now all try to connect themselves with a purpose versus the money. And then, of course, the people on— the investors on Shark Tank are looking for the money, right?

So like in large companies, it's on the walls. With the startups, it's on the pitches. Right? It doesn't become a reality. It is on the pitch to kind of believe it. But when that statement becomes a reality in the, in the teams is when it becomes meaningful, right? So they might still have a statement on a pitch deck, but might not be still living it.

How does a company get their employees to believe in a purpose? I think that's what it comes down to.

Yeah, whatever size it is, just one, having one strong, meaningful purpose, and then building a culture that everyone believes in it and then works towards it.

How do you build this culture so that everybody believes in it?

Yeah, so again, you know, that's, that's a step-by-step process where first having it, then defining what are the demonstrable behaviors which will really make— so if you say teamwork, what are the behaviors that will ensure that you're, yes, you're living that value or that culture? And then how do you reward? And what is also defining what it is not, not just what it is, but what it is not. So defining both sides is very important, and then percolating that across the teams and catching people doing the right things and also catching them not doing the right things, and then kind of, and simple things, like in terms of just a spot recognition. I have a client who would just, the leader would just go and go to the seat of the person and says, great work, you really stepped up and helped your team member. I really, really value that. Just that. He would walk from his office, come to his desk and say that in front of a lot of people. And that was the highest. And bonuses and salaries, yes, they're important, But that recognition on a particular value that the person lived through, and somebody coming off of the leadership team coming and acknowledging it, kind of, you know, just makes it really take over and makes it real for them that yes, they, when they say it, they believe in it. Because that's how they have appreciated it as well. And that's when it starts to become real. You have to demonstrate it.

How do I— I'm going to ask you to give us an example. A purpose and then not living to that purpose. But I'll give you a few minutes to think about that. How do— let's see how we're doing on time. Good. How do values and purpose link together for an organization, or don't they?

They— I mean, of course they do. So when you say purpose and values, I mean, I call it vision and values. And they are absolutely intertwined. So purpose is why we are here, and value is like what will we do or behave like our doings and the way we are doing which will help us achieve that. Like you can go to the same destination through different routes, right? But this is our core values. This is how we'll go and make this happen. So if we are about innovation, there has to be a lot of innovation. If we are about teamwork. Work, teamwork has to be really lived through. If we are about customer delightment, then it has to be demonstrated in everything that we are doing. So values are your— just like, you know, as human beings you have your core values, believe in integrity, honesty. Usually the core values of the founders in the companies, you know, like small to mid-sized companies, naturally translate into the values of the company because that's what they're bringing to the table. But then there are always times when you have to reevaluate, and It's also very important when you hire people to see if there is a match of that value.

I was just gonna ask you that. You read my mind.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Attracting, because that's how you build. Like, organization is actually a living being. Actually, it's a living being if you start looking at the way it, it has its own. And that's why it needs to have its core and the values as well, to say this is what we are. Not only because as an individual or as that organization, how are we differentiating in the the marketplace, if you start making connections with your life in the workplace, it's very, very similar. So your value, what drives you overall, or what drives this company overall, is very, very important to attract, retain, and nurture talent. Like, you know, it's like people get attracted to work there. And every company, I mean, if you look at large companies or small companies, they're known for something, whether through marketing or For, or through just word of mouth, people would know, you know, that company we would love to work with because they are such a family-like, like small companies, you would see a lot of family-like environments that people go and work for. Large companies, you would know for the cutting-edge technology innovation, just to be part of that big brand which is known for this, or which is bringing this huge impact in the world. I would love to, like, you know, Microsoft was my dream company to work with. finally managed to work with them. It's a talent breeding ground. They kind of nurture talent like how and invest heavily into their people, and that spreads around, right? So a lot of people would want to work and get associated with companies and brands like that. So that's how values— of course, you know, people keep refreshing, companies keep refreshing that. It's an important part overall. It's quite funny, all this discussion that we're doing, 10 years ago, I would have found this like, I don't have time for all of this. What sales targets, what profitability and everything. So I think, yeah, as an individual, as a leader, as a coach, I'm growing too. And I'm finding a place of all these things in the business. I'm still driven by results. And I'm still driven by what's the outcome. But I have figured out that there is a place, it's not fluff. It is a strong connection. It has a strong connection with the business results. And sometimes that might be your weakest link in the business to get the results, because the rest of the things are quite logical and can be catered to by a lot of people.

So, Mitali, give us an example of— excuse me— give us an example of a company that has a strong purpose. But does not in their behavior live up to that purpose? So we can get a visual in our mind.

On a public forum? Yes. I think every company, if they are living their purpose 100%, then they haven't— they have to rethink the whole thing because it's always about continuous evolution. So a lot of companies have their purpose. And there is always a ground to cover in living it. It's always good to have it written down, but everyone has room for improvement. So nobody is living it perfect. Whether they are absolutely not living it, that would be a big— like, you know, if you're not congruent to your own purpose, they will— I mean, I'm sure that will show in their balance sheets, or that will show in their business results. That will definitely hit their KPIs if there's so much of dissonance in what the leaders think as purpose and not living it, and that's why the teams are not aligned. Now I can say with confidence that you can see a direct correlation with your business dashboard on purpose and vision and values and not living through it. You would see that. There are many— I mean, honestly, I would refrain from taking names of the companies where I felt, because that might be a very, very personal opinion about it. But, you know, everyone is on a journey to bridge that gap and kind of live through that purpose. I always feel the intentions are right. Leaders do want to have a strong purpose, have values. Where it breaks is intention and execution. So the execution of living it breaks down, and every leader including myself, has made mistakes of not living what was intended to be a value sometimes. And it's important to do that self-reflection and stay true to it because without you being realizing it, it's always— the teams are always watching you. Like we said initially, they're always watching you. They will not believe what you tell them is a value and a vision they will believe what you're doing as a vision and a value. And so the intention and the execution congruence is very, very important if you really want to get it right. Otherwise, it will, like we said, remain in nice fancy presentations, some annual reports, and on the walls of the companies.

I think that's absolutely true. I recently had an experience with a grocery store chain, which I won't name, I'll be polite like you. And, you know, they've, they've been bought out by a big, big mega company, but they were known for the quality of foods and quality of service. And I received from, as a wedding gift, a gift certificate, and I had forgotten it at home. And I went through the store and I was shopping and didn't realize I had forgotten it. Had my grocery cart filled, and then I realized I didn't have it with me when I got to the register.

Yeah.

And so I said to the manager, um, can I just bring the receipt back with the gift card and get a credit towards the gift card? Because it was a sizable gift card. And the response was, no, you have to bring all the groceries back and we have to refund them. and then apply it towards the gift card. And my head just spun like I was possessed or something. I'm like, there's meat here. I— you want me to keep the meat and then bring it back, and then you're gonna put— what, what are you talking about? And so I just vowed after I used up this gift card, not to shop in the store anymore. It was, you know, it's very simple. And today there are so many choices for where you could do anything. It's really easy to commit to. Okay, cross.

Yeah, I hope and I, I wish that one of the values— I hope their value is customer delight or happy customers. And clearly they're not living up to it if it is not, because if you, if you're saying grocery store, not having that as a value would be absolutely, you know, insane. And then not living it is, is atrocious. So yeah, that's a perfect example of somebody—

They used to have that as a value statement. And obviously, since they have been purchased by this mega company, They don't anymore. I mean, it used to be my go-to store along with Costco. I mean, I don't mind mentioning Costco because my middle name is Costco.

Oh, really?

As all my friends know, it's like, what have you done today to relax? Oh, don't tell us, you went to Costco. Yeah, I went to visit my friends at Costco, you know, and dropped a couple of hundred dollars while I was saying hi to people. But their customer service, man, you just cannot— you cannot walk out that store without whistling a happy tune.

That's— I think you've answered your own question. Perfect example of where somebody is not living the value and somebody is actually exceeding those values. Exactly. The difference— I'm sure there's a difference in how this is being handled. Yeah, always. It always starts at the top. Always.

Really does. And, you know, well, let's get off that. Are there any other challenges that you see? We have about 3 minutes left, so we could do another episode. So leave us with a cliffhanger. What other challenges do you see that are prevalent at the top of the organization? And I don't mean that they're not solvable. I just mean that you You see them a lot.

I think those were the key things because everything else is an offshoot of it overall. But one of the other things is on the service and the product side, like how well, which is again very tactical. So I'm not— it's more on strategic areas in terms of how are they innovating, because constant innovation, just doing what you've been doing. doesn't serve the purpose overall. So what is the focus on continuous improvement, continuous innovation is, is very important. But again, those are strategic business things which I can keep going on. But overall, I think those 3 were the top ones.

Well, but you know what, I think you've, you've raised something that's critically important that we need another show about, because I come from the era where research and design, R&D, was king in an organization. And then over the years, it just dissipated. And the result of COVID-19— wow, do we see a need for that to come back, because companies didn't and still don't know how to pivot because they have nothing in the pipeline, right? And that applies to products or services or anything else that's out there. We need to bring back R&D. We need to bring back the, the concept of having a pipeline of innovation and products.

Yeah. Again, you know, there's a— it's a mixed bag. There are companies who are doing really, really high-end R&D and spending huge budgets on that, and there are companies who are not. And again, it's, it's, it's a mix like always. So, but it's a very, very important factor, like you said.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I see it more in technology. In fact, I wish Apple would Stop because every time I open my computer, oh, software update. I'm like, yeah, new operating system, new plugin. I'm like, Apple, do you realize how expensive your products are? Could you just let them have a little longer lifespan?

So when you ask that question and me being completely, you know, from the technology, it's like, what are you saying? I see innovation all the time and I experience that, and that's what we thrive on. So, yeah, but there might be areas which— but it is an important area, and to what degree is also very important. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, definitely technology, anything that requires technology is on the cutting edge and moving forward. But, but I think I'm talking more about— in fact, I know I'm talking more about like consumer products that are not technology related, um, that we see Just not changing. I mean, think about something as simple as bread. Now, I've seen a lot of new breads out when I go to Costco, but I don't know, you know, I haven't taken a poll on how many have changed to match our current lifestyle, right? When we're told don't eat a lot of bread. Yeah, we do see a lot more bread with seeds in it, and that's good, but You know, how much can it change? We don't know. Maybe bread can become a pill that we pop and decide not to take it or to take it depending upon what we need it for. You know, I want to see some real technology move into— some real innovation move into all aspects of consumer products and services.

Very interesting thought. Yeah.

More insanity, right?

Yeah, but that's just the start of it, right? So you start.

Exactly. Well, Mitali, we're out of time. It's been so great talking to you. And I do want you to come back and talk more about strategies.

Right. Yeah, absolutely. When are we starting CB Live?

It's already on. You're on, my friend.

We already started.

It went live. You can now see it on LinkedIn. And we have to close. So stay on, and we'll talk. Audience, thank you so much for joining us this Tuesday on CB Bowman Live, Challenges of the C-Suite. Thank you, Mitali.

Thank you. Bye-bye.

Bye, everyone.