Challenges of the C-Suite with John Baldoni

How are you?

I'm fine, CB, and how are you today?

I'm great, and I think we missed the introduction, but we'll forget that. So welcome everybody, this is CB Live, and you are invited to hear John Baldoni, who is an extraordinary person, a voracious reader, and has a photographic memory for whatever he reads. But first, let me tell you that this is being brought to you by the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches and of which John is a member. And not only is he a member, he's certified through us as a Master Corporate Executive Coach. So we are so delighted to have him represent ACEC and to talk to us about all the amazing things he's done and to answer the question of what are the challenges he's seeing out there for those in the C-suite. So, John, welcome.

Oh, thank you, CB. It's a pleasure to be on the show, and I'm honored by the invitation.

So thank you. And, and I must confess, in transparency, John is one of my biggest supporters.

So, well, I'll just be straight up. I mean, I say this all the time. Um, CB always likes to say you have a marketing background. Well, and I've said this before, Your background is front and center because you're such a creative person. And I was reinventing my business proposition when COVID struck. And so we moved everything to virtual. And CB said, let me see your website. So we went on there and she goes, just what are you selling? And I told her and she goes, well, that's not what your website says. So I made some adjustments. and did them pretty quickly. And it's been onward and upward. So I love her energy and your ability to cut to the quick. You ask good questions, and you, you get to the heart of the matter very in short order. So that's a valuable—

Thank you, John. So, okay, now that you've caused me to blush, I love it.

You can send the check afterwards. I take credit card too.

So you got it, my dear. So, John, tell us a little bit about yourself. Why are you uniquely qualified to answer the questions I'm going to ask you?

Well, because I've spent a lot of time in the C-suite, actually in 2 different iterations. I began my career not dissimilar to you, CB, because I was in marketing communications and I did the big shows and meetings and things that corporate events that clients do. And through that, I became a corporate speaker. Speechwriter, and I worked for people at the very top of the house. So I was in the C-suite well before I ever deserved to be there. And so, but what it was great training because I got to see leadership up close, and I got to see what worked and what didn't work. And I was encouraged to write or asked to write speeches on leadership. And I would write these things and I go, you know, I'd rather be saying them myself. So I went back to school, I got a master's in consulting and became— and then eventually started writing and continuing. And then was invited by all people, as our friend Marshall Goldsmith, to become a coach. And I did become a coach and went through all kinds of training programs and things. And so I— so actually, I've been in the C-suite twice, if you will.

So So not only that, you have produced— written 17 books?

Oh, actually 14 books. And I don't know, 800 columns for Harvard Business Review, Forbes, places like that. I also do a video series. And then my new exciting venture is a LinkedIn Live show, which you're going to be on very shortly.

So, you know, I was going to try to Weave that in, but you jumped in. Well, we can say it twice. So tell us about your LinkedIn Live show.

It's called Grace Under Pressure, which if you look at it from a marketing standpoint, and I wonder who gave me that name, Grace Under Pressure, that we were talking about grace because my last book is called Grace: A Leader's Guide to a Better Us. And the book came out last year and we were talking about how applicable grace is to our times of crisis and our times of discord. So we were talking and I said, I need some kind of muscle behind this in a way, a kind of a hook. And you said, Grace Under Pressure, and bingo. So I labeled my site that. I've been doing a series of videos, very just selfie videos about issues that leaders need to address or things on their mind like dislocation, fear, connection, inspiration, compassion, a lot of host of issues like that. And then writing articles for Forbes, and Smart Brief on the organizational impact of our crisis and what we need to do. The LinkedIn Live show is an extension of that. I'm talking to thought leaders and doers who are making a difference by challenging us to think and applying their practices to helping leaders get through this crisis.

And we have interesting conversations about what leaders need to do and how we can come together more connectedly and more compassionately for So I'm gonna put you on the spot, and I didn't tell you I was gonna do this, so hold on to your seat. So recently I was in a group meeting of advertising and marketing folks, and for 2 weeks we discussed the whole Black Lives Matter issue. And the name of the program is Action chat, and so the discussion was pretty raw, pretty intense about what people could do, how they were feeling in the marketing and advertising space. The following week, which was three weeks three weeks later, you introduced in your book about grace. There was some unrest. amongst those that were Black about what was the subtle message. Is he trying to tell us that our fight for equality should be more graceful? And so I'd like for you to address, how do you tie grace into a fight, long-term, hundreds of years struggle for equality?

Well, grace is that gift that is given to us that we give back.

Okay.

Grace is— we often think of it rooted to faith-based traditions, and actually it's inherent in every faith. But you've heard me speak this before. It's inherent in our DNA. Grace is our generosity, our respect, and our compassion. Respect is the lever in social injustice because minorities, Blacks, have not been treated respectfully. And they— and so they have been ostracized or marginalized or whatever, held apart from the mainstream, opportunities withheld. There's nothing graceful in that. People who have perpetrated that marginalization are acting without grace. So often, and this is definitely from a faith-based tradition, certainly in the African-American church, there has been great grace shown toward violence perpetrated to them. I think that maybe has led to, well, the victim has to say, I'm sorry first. And what world are we living in? There's a room— there is a— I'm sorry. There is certainly a place for righteous anger, which is due to being mistreated. It's what you do with that anger that matters. And that's why someone like John Lewis, whom we just lost a couple of weeks ago, was such a powerful example. Because he was beaten more than once and always acted in a true spirit of healing. The other example like that is Nelson Mandela. What people don't understand so much about Mandela, because he's been deified, is that Mandela was, in his tribe, was a chief. He had a sense of presence and he was a natural Quote, natural-born leader, if we want to say that. So when he was in the ANC, African National Congress, fighting for racial justice, and then he was imprisoned on Robben Island for 27 years, something happened in prison. And he was on a slow-release program. So he was let out by the apartheid government and then had a little house. And in this little house, he was able to— literally invite people to visit him, and often it was his nominal oppressors. In there, he always insisted on serving them tea. That was a way of him being in charge. The thing about Mandela that is often sublimated is that he was— rightly so— felt so wronged. 27 years have been taken from his life, and he was very bitter about it, but he found a way to act for the greater good. How he did it, he acted with grace. That's what he did. So it wasn't that he didn't— he sublimated his anger and turned it into, you know, a righteous cause. That's up to individuals how they process it. I don't think grace should never be an excuse for rolling over and playing being a patsy. That's not what grace is. Because as I look at grace too, and I talk about it being action and energy, people are motivated to make righteous change. Mandela would fall into that. John Lewis certainly would. But inherent in grace are the 2 attributes that are sometimes in short supply in our culture, and that's mercy and forgiveness. You know, we're kind of in a gotcha culture. When people screw up, we want to pile on. And where's the mercy there? And where is the forgiveness? And what we know from forgiveness is that forgiveness begins within ourselves when we have that capacity, but it's an unburdening of ourselves, and so that we free up. And I can't talk about this on big serious issues. I mean, but, you know, when we, we feel wronged by a colleague or, you know, mistreated or something, if we don't forgive that person in our own mind, we're just carrying that animus around with it, and it weighs us down and eats up our energy. You know, if we act with grace, if we act with forgiveness, we'll just say, okay, it doesn't necessarily mean you forget, and you may not want to do business with that person again. But you free yourself to show grace on yourself, if you will.

So, it's a complicated position, let's say, because on one hand you're saying, from what I understand, is that by showing grace, we could almost be energized. Yes.

I don't know, energized, freed up. We unburden ourselves.

Mm-hmm. But on the other hand, I would dare say that it's, you know, asking Black people to forgive white people for their sins and injustices is not asking Black people to forgive themselves. is a whole lot to ask. Then you have to ask yourself, if the situation were reversed, what would be the reaction?

Oh, I'm not asking Black people to forgive white people. No, not at all. I'm talking about it in— and then I just said there's a reason for righteous anger because without righteous action and motivation, which is heated at times, there would be no change. The civil rights movement of the '50s while it was, you know, we thought we frame it through the nonviolent protests and it was, though that came out of 3 centuries of degradation and mistreatment and rage and pain and suffering, which we as a white person, I have no idea. Cognitively, I can say I can describe it, but I have no idea what it means to be marginalized.

None.

So, but, and so no, I'm not asking anybody to roll over. Grace would give one that ability to do so, but that's a personal choice. And to do so doesn't mean that you lay down the cause and say, well, you just do whatever you want and we'll take what we get. And that's not what Martin Luther King preached. I mean, you know, and because, you know, he was preserved, he was possessed of a righteous indignation that he channeled into his actions, but he wasn't a pushover. I mean, and ultimately he gave his life. I mean, what, what greater sacrifice could there possibly have been?

You know, I'm glad that you explained that because I think that many people listening would have taken it the other way, and so I wanted you to have this opportunity to further express the multi-dimensions of grace. In fact, one could consider it in all the dialogue that's going on, one could consider it as another methodology in dialogue.

Showing grace? Oh yeah, because grace is what facilitates kindness towards others. Grace, I think, at its core is about connection. It's about reaching out to others and connecting them. Here's the interesting point, and this is what I learned from Father Boyle, Father Greg Boyle, who runs the Homeboy Industries in Los Angeles. It's connecting with people in a way that they want to be connected to. If I go into a disadvantaged community and start preaching about you people need to do this and you people need to do that, there might be some sound advice on that. But I'm not connecting with anybody. I'm lecturing. Beginning, you have to just sit or occupy space with someone and understand them. It's what Stephen Covey used to say, seek to understand before you are understood. Often in our world, we are so much in a hurry, and I raise my hand, That we don't have, quote, time to understand. We think we do. I think I understand you, CB, but let me tell you how it is.

Yes, have I heard that a lot. Yeah, yeah, right. And it's off in another plane.

Well, what we— yes, and what happens is that's a missed opportunity. There is no connection. And it happens too to well-intended people. You know, it's not that we go into, you know, try to, you know, we expect someone of good intention expends good effort, but they're just— it's like 2 ships passing in the night, and that's a lost opportunity. And so that's why we all need reeducation, if you will. We all need— and part of it just comes down to patience. And listening, you know, and 2 of the hardest things that for me, I can listen pretty well, but I'm not the most patient person.

Well, you know, it's interesting that the story— I mean, it's sort of taken us a little bit off our goal for today, but it's an interesting discussion because I remember in the same group when we first broke up, you weren't part of the group at that point. We first started discussing Black Lives Matter. And we were broken up into small pods to discuss it. And I was in with, I think it was 4 or 5 white men. And the first thing they said to me, oh, CB, I feel so bad for what you've gone through. I'm just— I am besieged with upset. I didn't see it coming. I didn't know these things were happening. And I— timeout. You don't know what I've gone through.

Wow.

You know, I appreciate The concern, but first you need to ask what I've experienced so that it becomes a real connection for us and a real starting point. I know their hearts were in the right place, but the message— start first from ground zero and then build up towards solution actions. I know exactly what you're saying. Let's just take a moment and listen first. John, good book. You have written some amazing books and always on target and on point. Thank you for that. I see you have a sign in the back of you. What is that about?

That's from one of my first books, 180 Ways to Walk the Leadership Talk. It's a little book and it's just a collection of positive behaviors that leaders can express to others. I did it through a publishing company which is still around, called Walk the Talk. And I think that book has sold, I don't know, 80,000 copies or something. It's certainly my mega seller. Wow.

So could you give us a couple of examples?

I knew— I was hoping you would. I tell you what I did do is I did turn LEAD into an acronym, and it was Learn, Energize, Act, Demonstrate, I think another E, Engage, and I think R was Respect. So all the behaviors were grouped under those, those type things, just grabbing the 181 little— 180 little to-do things.

Well, okay, so that leads us into our conversation today is, and that is, what do you see are the top 3 challenges that people in the C-suite face? Are they behavioral-based or Other-based?

Well, I think it's a good question. And let's put a caveat on it. I think let's put aside the financial challenges, okay? Because that's always— if you're going to run your business, that's paramount. And or if you're in an organization, your viability has to be there. So aside from financial challenges, either growing business or lean business or whatever's happening, or you're a social service agency and you're faced with budget challenges and resources and all that. Aside from that, I think there's 3 things: challenge about trust, challenge about developing your people, and how do you deal with the unknown? Those are 3 challenges that I see or I perceive that folks need to deal with.

Let's take one at a time. You know what? If we run out of time, Let's come back because I want to really dive into this. First one, trust. Trust. We hear that all the time, and yet we don't hear it enough.

No. I'm a big believer in Stephen M.R. Covey's book, The Speed of Trust. I have used that book as a reference, and what I love about it is there are 11 chapters in there about action behaviors to do. So I'm going to say that is a great resource. But what the first thing you do, and Stephen, Stephen M.R. does this the same way, is focus on behaviors. Are you walking the talk, which is the title of that book, 180 Ways to Walk the Talk?

That's amazing.

And yeah, easy to say. And if you ask any leader, CB, are you walking the talk? You would say, I would, might even be taken aback. Why? How could you ask me that? You know, but are we? Are we? It's a challenge.

It's a challenge every day. It's not that easy.

And if you know, and as you well know, because you run an organization and you coach leaders and you shepherd all us coaches, it starts with accountability. If you don't hold yourself accountable, there ain't going to be no trust, no way, no how. And that's why we see in organizations such a bifurcation between frontline management or management employees and senior levels. Because guess who gets the big package and guess who doesn't? Curiously, in our time of pandemic, at least initially, there have been higher levels of trust. People are looking to their leaders and executives and they are believing them. And so there are higher levels of trust. So leaders are doing something right. Okay. So the challenge is to keep that going. All right. But it starts with accountability.

Okay, let's break it down.

Yeah.

Higher levels of trust, meaning that they're trusting their leaders more. If they are, why? And so what's making the shift?

I think they see that their leaders are doing the best for them to keep the organization going. I think that when it's a higher level of trust, they're seeing their leaders They're more visible because they're using technology. What I advise leaders to do, and whether they do it or not, is to connect informally. So, and you talk about the business, but stay in touch with your people. And also, here's the thing. Listen for what you're not hearing. If someone who's generally Upbeat and all of a sudden is showing lack of energy or enthusiasm, and it's not just one day, check in on that person. Is he or she having a problem with a child, or is there an elder care situation, or is that person isolated due to COVID and can't connect with anybody physically? All of those things. That's a challenge right there.

But John, you know, here's a reality check. I totally agree with you. But if you're talking to the CEO of Ford, how do you get in touch? And how do you stay in touch? And how do you reach?

Well, you do— that's a very appropriate question. And you do it within your appropriate level. I'm not asking the CEO of a manufacturing company to text frontline workers. But the challenge is that every level of management stays in touch with his or her workers. That's what I'm saying.

Setting the example.

Setting the example. And that's what, you know, I remember writing about a head of a healthcare system who said she had an open-door policy. She had thousands of workers, employees, and she had an open-door policy. Literally anybody could go in and talk to her. And she was— Nancy made herself accessible. And I said, how's that working out? And she goes, it works very well. But what she meant was, if Nancy's doing it, then Bill, the CFO, and Charlie, the controller, and Jennifer, the head of HR, are doing the same thing. Why? It's expected. It's example. Nancy's holding herself accountable. Why aren't the others? So setting the table for others to do the same.

Let's talk about this word accountable. What does that mean for you?

It means do what you say you're going to do and follow through. And here's the big thing about it. We are frail creatures. We make mistakes. We screw up. Admit them. And not just— and apologize when appropriate, but make amends. And so, if I'm your boss, CB, and I cut you off in a meeting or I'm not acting, you know, and I'm just sort of nasty to you or whatever, A, I should apologize. And then my amends are going to be, at minimum, I'm going to say at our next meeting, you know, I was I took it out on CB the other day, and I was out of line. And leave it at that, you know, making amends. If you've done something wrong, then right the wrong, whatever that means, you know.

You know, one of our colleagues in ACEC just put out a great book related to this called Saving Face.

Oh, Maya Houshant.

Yes, yes. And My question for her, and she gave a great answer, is why are so many leaders afraid to do this? Why are they so afraid that being accountable means showing weakness?

It's just the opposite. It's just the opposite.

But why do they think that way?

Protection, because they don't have a deep enough understanding of what leadership means. And in a management culture, and we all need strong management cultures because the management culture is the administration of things and that's how things get done. There's not a lot of forgiveness. The forgiveness comes from the leadership quotient. Also, part of it is a male thing. Men are taught, I think it's changed, but men are less emotional than women. And so if you show emotion, if you show vulnerability, um, that is therefore a kind of weakness, when in reality it's actually a sign of strength. Why? Because you have the courage to say what you've done. You have the courage to be humble. Now, accountability or humility doesn't have to come out of Of wrong, or I may end up making a mistake. Humility is— I like to say it's an active thing. I don't have all the answers, you know, and I'm gonna hire really smart people, and I don't care if they're smarter than I am. I'm the boss, and I'm their leader, and my job is to put them in a position where they can put their smarts to good use. Now, if they're always acting too smart or smartass, that I'm going to have a coaching conversation with them.

I like that. Yeah, I think, um, you know, this lack of saving face— I agree with you— shows such great weaknesses, and it shows a lack of inner strength. If you're that afraid of appearing to be weak Then your inner strength is weak.

I wouldn't— yes, I would say that. But I'd like to say I want to give them the benefit of reeducation. I want to give them the ability to be coached. I want to give them— because they may not know any better. And that's if you grew up in a punitive management culture. And when I started in my career, That was—I mean, I'm old enough to remember the dinosaur managers, and you know if bad news was good, no news was good news. Yes, everything you heard was bad news. If you grew up in that kind of system, and they still exist, and a lot of them are called family-owned businesses. So I give them a chance to re to be reeducated, to be coached, and to say, "Hey, it's okay." You know, and to be that. And if they don't respond from there, well, that's another issue.

So, and so you really think they're coachable on a long-term—

That kind of person? Yeah, because I've worked with them. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

So what are some coaching tips for that type of person?

Well, I think you make it— you show them examples of what it means. And part of it is Taking the burden off your own shoulders. It's like people who feel that way feel they have to do everything. Yes, they delegate and all that, but they think every— the buck stops with them, and it does. But they get in, they get wrapped around their own axle, and they're so wrapped around their axle, their first pushback is, you don't understand what it's like. Well, no, I don't know what it's like to run your company, but I talk to more people in your position than you have. And, and, you know, I can give you good examples of people who do that. A, our friend Alan Mulally, for one. But show them, make it safe for them. Also show it as an opportunity for them to get better at what they do, get better results, get more out of their people, and have a better life. You know, 120 hours, working 120 hours a week is not really healthy for anybody.

I like what you just said, make it safe for them. Because you definitely don't think of an aggressive, driving boss as someone who needs a safety zone.

Well, part of that aggression and drive comes from their upbringing. And so they think that's the only way. And so that way, when you challenge that, you show them, hey, there's a better way. They're always going to be driven. They're always going to be pushing hard. They're going to tend to be aggressive. But they're going to learn you catch more bees with honey than you do with vinegar. Because then you start showing them statistics. OK, what's your turnover rate among direct reports? Show me the engagement figures for your company. How does that compare to your competitors? And, you know, what do people say about you? You know, and I can tell them what they say about you. You know, they respect you because you're the boss, but they think you're a jerk.

And, you know, it also goes back to in this day and age, People don't feel compelled to stay in an environment where they're being abused.

Bingo! That's the big thing. It's a talent— you're driving your best people away. The people that stay are the deadwood.

So yeah, yeah, I mean, there is an absolute war on talent, and people think, oh, come on, it's hard to find a job. Well, it may be difficult, especially given COVID, but is it— how hard is it to find really good talent? That's a whole different vocabulary, right? It's hard.

It's hard to find. It's harder to find good talent than it is for good talent to find a job.

I love that. I love that. So now, okay, let's talk about fear of the unknown.

Well, I think you and I have had this conversation before. What keeps CEOs up at night is what It's not what they know; it's what they don't know. Am I prepared? Are my people trained? Am I prepared for my competitors doing this? Now in crisis, now in COVID, we've had three things: we've had COVID, economic collapse, and social unrest—all three in three months. That's talk about black swan. I mean, this is the. Pretty amazing. Yeah. And but here's the, here's the outro of this. I, I always go back to my, one of my favorite, um, historical figures, which is Winston Churchill. And the great thing about Churchill was that it said that he mobilized the British people, which he did do, because through his oratory he made them feel that they were part of the war effort. He mobilized them. He, and he said, I gave the lion the roar, but the roar came from the people. It said This, for a leader, you're not going to face any other crisis like this in your life. Make this your finest hour. So how do you deal with the unknown? Well, you don't. You accept it. And then what I like to say, and I've written about this before, it's ambiguity. Nobody likes ambiguity. And I want you to tell me, CB, I have my job for as long as I want it. Well, I'd like to hear that, but you can't tell me that. And you're the boss and you're feeling stressed on that. What you can do is say, I will tell you what I know as soon as I can. I will keep you in the loop. Further on that is you square the circle. What is it we can do? Can we cure the pandemic? No, but we can all wear masks. We can socially— we can physically distance. We can work virtually. We can find a way to connect. We will do what we will do in the best way possible. Will we make mistakes? Oh yeah, we will. But we'll figure it out. And you know what? We're going to do it together. And that's part of it. So, there's always going to be a curve in there. There's always going to be something that changes. And the smart leaders are those who are prepared not for the event itself, but prepared for the crisis. Because A, they have a crisis plan. But they have, in a way, maybe a crisis mentality in the sense that they know how to cope with this. They haven't seen this event, but they've seen other events, and we trust them, and they bring people together.

Yeah, I think that you have a good point because I think the successful leaders that have come out of this, they have set up a culture of we're in this together. Whatever happens, we're in this together. It doesn't even have to be a crisis. It could be a competitor. But we're going to figure it out together.

And here's the other thing. I don't know what the new norm— you know, our colleague Rhett Power and I do a series called What's Next: Previews, Predictions, Prognostications. And it's about the thinkers and doers who are shaping our new normal. And we're not at our new normal. But I— and can you— can I tell you what our new normal is? No. But I will tell you one thing. I'm confident that those strong organizations, the values that they held in January 2020 will be the values they hold when they come on the other side and they will shape their new normal. So again, some— it's a cliché, but you've heard, you've heard it before, but it works. When in crisis, go to your values, your trust, integrity, belief in others, love, compassion, all of those things. Those are human values. They don't change in time of crisis. As a matter of fact, they become paramount in time of crisis.

Yeah, I think we tend to mix those up with mission and strategy and goals. And 3 different things. There's— all those things can go away. They can all change.

Yep. We tie it back as mission is our vision, is our becoming. Mission is our doing. And that's where our strategies come from. But values, it's what is our belonging. That's what holds us together. And that's where grace comes in. Purpose is our why, which is our vision and mission. But grace becomes our how. So, in other words, I can achieve a vision and a mission. I can do it in spite of people. But how much better is it if I bring all my colleagues along, all my team along with me? That's where grace comes in.

So yeah, I think that there's so much confusion. I remember when I was working for, let's just say, an insurance company.

An unknown, unnamed.

Unknown agency. And I remember the CEO would march the halls. He was an ex-military guy. And, you know, it would be, hmm, hmm, and you can't do this. And he would send the, the, the minions in to say, you can't do this, you can't do that. And you couldn't put up a picture on the wall unless it was approved, you know. You couldn't put a picture on your desk unless it was approved. You couldn't eat popcorn because of the smell. And yet every year there was this company picnic where you're all supposed to come together based on common values.

What was the common value? Oppression?

You know, and everybody was, you know, bow down, bow down, you know. Yes, you know, and I thought I used to sit at these company picnics dreading them, dreading them, saying to myself, oh God, the mixed messages, the mixed metaphors, get some consistency here.

Right.

And there was no such animal. And, you know, that's not the only organization that does that. They think that Thanksgiving turkey, that company picnic, the Christmas party represents the whole dynamic of the organization.

That's sad.

And it's so popular, so, so prevalent in corporate America.

I think we're gonna— I think one thing that all the I think the backswing of our new normal will be more connected. After all, we've seen our CEO, we've probably seen our CEO in his bathrobe. If not, we've seen his wife in a bathrobe. So, but seriously, we've had, we've seen kids running, we've seen dogs, all that kind of stuff. So that makes us more human. And I think it leads to greater connections. And I think humility will be a little bit easier. So, well, I hope so.

So it reminds me of a meeting I was on, and this person was sitting at his desk with a typical, you know, polo Lacoste shirt on and perfect desk and perfect bookshelves. And he went to get up to get something that I think the housekeeper or the wife or somebody brought in, and you see that he was in his undershorts. Well, that's the common denominator.

That will, that will cut your image down to size. And so it's how you react to that.

Well, at least they're nicely designed. Yeah. Now talk to me about the 3rd area of developing people.

I think when you're in the C-suite, I mean, basically, certainly The job of a CEO is to ensure proper succession. I mean, obviously keep the organization going. But the second thing is to— who's in line, not simply for my job. Marshall talks— Marshall Goldsmith talks about this a lot, about not, you know, succession planning, as he says, is putting people in boxes. What you need is flexible things of who has the competencies to do these. Different things in multiple different areas. That's a development exercise. And so often, what coaching to the CEO becomes coaching him or her to develop his or her team, not simply the successor. But challenge those— the CFO, the CMO, whatever their titles are. What are you doing for your people? How are you developing them? What opportunities are you providing them? We call those stretch goals, job responsibilities. That's a little bit lower down. But what are you doing further down the ladder? Are you keeping your eye on talent? And now I'm really passionate about this. I believe that crisis provokes opportunity. We've heard that a thousand times. But also, just as cream rises to the top in hot coffee, So does talent. And so, you got to be watching for that talent. Who is coming? Who is making a name for himself or herself? Who's making that positive difference? Who's coming up with new ideas? Who's thinking out of the box? Who can think critically? And here's the other thing, CB. This is really important. Keep your eye out for introverts, a competent introvert. Because yes, so, so often, it's the introverts that— I mean, how many times, how many senior leaders have you coached who are introverts? I've coached a heck of a lot of them, which are always against type, because we always think, well, they're, you know, outgoing and all that. They may have learned to do that. But their energy— And so at a junior, at a more junior level, they haven't yet learned how to project, but they have great minds. And the great thing about— I love about introverts is they don't have to be on stage. They're comfortable watching, listening, observing. And if they're smart, they're always processing. So, what's going on in that brain?

I'm so glad you mentioned this. Having— since I'm an introvert, Yeah.

Somehow I'm not sure.

Oh, I am. And I am a high-level introvert too. So not just, you know, not just—

You don't come across that way because you have been in a senior leadership position and you are leading an organization yourself. And you need— you have learned how to project, how to adopt that role. My wife is the same way. My wife, if you met my wife, you would not know she's an introvert, but she is. And she needs downtime to process, but she's a great listener. She's a great observer. Um, you know, and, um, so we need them. So what I'm saying, keep an eye on them, is because when there's a lot of kerfuffle going around, They'll be lost in the shadows.

So look for that. So yeah, it's really a good point. Did you know I was— when I was studying MBTI, I found that it was in one of their books that the greatest, the largest— no, wait, how am I going to say this? CEOs in the United States, the greatest number are introverts.

Wow, that's good to know.

Yeah, and it's because we're so brilliant.

We are. Now, this doesn't say every introvert is a genius or every extrovert is an idiot. Somewhere in between, there's such a thing as omniverts. People can go back and forth. So, and that's actually when you learn a behavior, that's really what you're doing.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And so I always have fun with it because people say to me, as you just said, No, no. Yes, yes. I— that's why I had to change the appointments for the— these interviews, because people were booking them at 3 o'clock or 4 o'clock. I said, no, gotta stop.

You know, and that's the other point to this, CB. I'm glad you mentioned that, because what you— what you just gave me, gave us, gave our listeners, um, is a lesson in self-management. Know what you can do and what you cannot do. And managing yourself gets back to self-care. Managing yourself is the habits that you do in a day, but also it's the self-care. Are you eating right, getting enough sleep, exercise? All of those kinds of things too. That's critically important. So anyway, 2 cents for that.

So, you know, I, I know that we're running out of time, but You brought up something that I think is interesting because yesterday I had a conversation with a woman who— a Black woman who's just put out a book about leadership, purposeful leadership, and it's addressed to Black women. And her point is that Black women are not trained to move up in the organization, either through their own learning or through support that they would get in an organization. And I thought about it for a long time, and I think, you know, what you're saying now in terms of training gets me thinking, because I think a lot of what you've said relates to not people of color because there has been no conversation, nothing written, no dialogue about what people of color, be it brown, Black, or whatever, what do they need that's different in an organization to rise to the top? I think that that's the dynamic that we haven't looked at before that's important to this workplace equality.

Oh, absolutely. And I mean, we all need guides. There's a certain— there's much value to be provided with a roadmap. But more than that, it's we need mentors and somebody to show us the ropes, I suppose. I mean, yes, it helps if that mentor, that coach is of the same color, but it It need not be, you know. So it's whoever is willing— if you are in a mentorship, whoever is willing to share and there's a match there, learn what you can from that person. And having a mentor, you're not— it's not like being married. You can have more than one mentor.

So yeah, I think what you said, the reason why I shook my head is this is a very tough conversation, whether or not somebody who coaches you or mentors you should be the same color. I like your add-on where you said you can have more than one, because I think it's important to have a mentor from 360. If you're a woman, have a white male mentor. If you're a Black woman, have a white and Black male mentor and a white and Black female mentor so that you can get total perspective from various situations in terms of moving forward. Because having a mentor of your same race or even religion may give you a narrower framework to work in.

Yes, but there is— but well, you're better equipped than I am, but same race means the same experiences. And that's, that's why. But I take your point completely.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's why I'm saying it's good to have both sides so that you have somebody who's experienced what you experienced from the same race, but then you have somebody who can support you from a different race and give you a different lens.

Absolutely.

To see things through.

Yep.

So I think in developing employees, as one of the things that people in the C-suite need is that they need to think in terms of, especially now, developing employees from different cultures.

Yes, but the payoff, it's not diversity, it's inclusion.

Yes.

It's invite them, the quote them, invite people of difference, all of them, to the to the table so that you get input from different areas. Inclusion is the watchword and how do we do that? That's the challenge. But we'll work on it. That's why the social justice movement right now is so important because we're never going to change unless we become more inclusive. We have to work at it and all of us can play a role in it. in our roles and we do what we can. Everything we do from a leadership standpoint should be inclusion. That doesn't necessarily mean race, gender, and ethnicity inclusion, but inclusion in point of view.

That's what I'm saying. I like that. Now I'd like to roll back into the grace part because I think I think inclusion requires grace. Yeah. And grace includes inclusion. And I think that's why your book is so important.

Well, thank you. So, and I'll shout the book again. And it's— I can lunch on what Alan Mulally said, because he loved the subtitle. A Leader's Guide to a Better Us. And that's what we're striving for right now, a better us.

Yeah, I love it. I love it. Thank you so much for writing that book. And who knew it was going to be so important at this time? Because you know what, I love the various meanings of grace. And that's what I wanted to come out in this meeting because I think, as you said, people put it in a teeny framework when in fact it's an explosive word that can mean so much.

Well, there's another part of grace, which is centeredness, which comes from motion and beauty and art. That is an enriching experience that is holistic, and it simply gives us a wider lens to look at.

Tell me about that. Now you've opened up another discussion. Tell me.

No, no, I talk about— we talk about person and people who act with grace and from an arts or music standpoint. Grace— the arts transport us to another world. Think of ballet. That's the motion. And so we say that's graceful. A painting, the brushstrokes can be graceful. Or they evoke a mood which takes us to a state of grace, if you will. But then it comes back to it's an enrichment for us, it's a centering for us. And that's where really all grace comes from, from a centered self. If you're a— if you don't have a good sense of self, you need grace. Okay? And we all need grace because we're not all as centered as we think we are. But the more centered we are, the more we understand ourselves, strengths and shortcomings, we can give grace. From that, you initiated our friends Chester Elton and Adrian Gostyk talk about gratitude, leading with gratitude. Gratitude is definitely an attribute of grace. It's that giving back. But I say we can only give gratitude if we feel good about ourselves. And that's where we need that. And that's where grace comes into our own lives. So, yeah, I have something to give.

So well said. Thank you. And, you know, I have to say this one story. Now I'm feeling very guilty because yesterday our landscaper hired somebody to come in and spray pesticides in the back. And he's supposed to let me know that ahead of time so I don't let my dog London out, and he didn't.

Right.

And I literally had a cow. And he actually had the company that he used call me up, and the one thing they said to me which really set me over the top, our product is friendly to bees. I said, the last time I looked, as I watched him pee, he is not a bee.

Yeah, that's a good one.

And I was so angry. I couldn't fit in, Grace. I just thought, my poor little puppy.

The story is— a story is a quick reminder that we are fragile creatures, and that's what we need, Grace. to help us overcome that moment and not do it again.

Yeah, okay, I'm gonna keep that in mind, but I've got to tell you, it's not going to happen again because I said that's it, no more back pesticides. You could work on the front, you cannot touch the back anymore. This has been so Amazing, and I wanted to say educational, but that's not the right word. I want to say you've presented us with a different realm of possibilities and a way to look at things that may be more healthy to us internally. And the 3 areas that you talked about that CEOs are often concerned about— trust, developing people, and the unknown— are so real. And having that foundation together in an organization of values base, where we normally think about values in terms of ourselves or in terms of You know, for example, religion. We don't think of it in terms of organizations, and it's so important.

It is.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for this opportunity. It's been fun.

Thank you. So again, everyone, this has been brought to you by the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches. And gosh, you have seen an example of one of our members. So it is an amazing group of people. Thank you so much for joining us. This is CB Live.