Challenges of the C-Suite with Chris Coffey, Episode 21

Hello, Chris. How are you today?

I'm wonderful, CB.

Great, great. So audience, uh, you know, I gotta tell you, technology is a whole nother thing, uh, especially when you're from another generation. Everybody, welcome, welcome to CB Bowman Live. Today is Challenges of the C-Suite, and we are so fortunate to have Chris Coffey come and talk to us. And you probably recognize the name. He's famous. Oh yes, he is. He is one of Marshall Goldsmith's BFFs, and you all know what that means, right? He and Frank Wagner go back a long way with Marshall. And so what better expert do we have to talk about the challenges that are faced in the C-suite? Chris, welcome. Stop playing with your camera now because we're live.

I'm trying to focus on the camera so that I'm looking at you.

Okay, look at me, beautiful me. Yeah, right. Okay, so let's focus on me. And, um, first, why don't you tell the audience a little bit about yourself?

Uh, well, that's a big question. How far back do you want me to go?

Uh, let's go back to the days you met Marshall.

Oh, okay. Um, I actually met Marshall and Frank at the same time, and they were both working for Paul Hersey at the Center for Leadership Studies. And Paul Hersey, for those of you that may not know, he and Ken Blanchard created Situational Leadership. And Frank and Marshall had started working for Paul, I believe, around 1979. And At the time, they were teaching situational leadership, and simultaneously Paul was creating a videotape program of situational leadership. Now you got to project back, this is 40 years ago. It was being put on 3/4-inch videotape, which, depending on how old you are, you probably have never seen one.

No.

This was certainly before Betamax. Or VHS or any of that stuff.

I was going to say, most of our audience won't even know what that is.

Well, you know, 1980 was 1980, before fax machines, you know, before any of this stuff, the tools that we have today, which we just experienced the challenges those of our generation have. Yeah. So anyway, I'm—

No, no, no, wait, Chris. Speak for yourself now.

So, um, they, they, they brought me in. Now, it's interesting, uh, you know, a little bit that maybe the audience would like to know is, you know, how do you get into this business and what have you? For me, it was, was, was totally circumstance, uh, uh, that presented it. Uh, I had, I had come out from New York City And I was under contract for 20th Century Fox. I was an actor, and I came out to do a movie with John Ritter. And, you know, I'd been in and out of law school, the Navy, ski bum. A lot of that stuff was in my past. So I was in my early 30s at that time, and they actually brought me in to facilitate the taped version of Paul Hersey teaching situational leadership. So that's what I came in at the center to do. And that was in the early '80s. And I loved it. I mean, and, you know, I was pretty much the lost soul of the '60s, not knowing what to do. Everybody thought I was always going to be an attorney. I thought I'd be an attorney. And I just didn't really want to do that. But you have to do something. And then this opportunity presented itself and I said, wow, I like being in front of the audience and teaching. And it was good. And so Paul took me under his wing.

I'm sure that many people want to know, how did you get from being a ski guy? How did you pass the interview? When you had no experience in it? And also explain to our listeners what situational leadership is.

Well, situational leadership is probably the most taught model in corporate America. It really is based on, you know, matching your style, your behavior as a leader with the readiness level Or development level, if you will, of another individual based upon the specific task. And we all have different readiness levels, and readiness is a component of ability and willingness. Ability— do you have the experience? Do you have the education? Do you have the training? And willingness— do you have the confidence? Do you have the desire? Do you have the incentive? So I could judge my Readiness level from a technical point of view is pretty much an R1 or an R2. I pretty much don't have a lot of ability, and I don't have a whole bunch of desire or confidence. So I need somebody to walk me through step by step what, where, when, and how when I'm working with a computer. If you're gonna ask me about something else, skiing or golf, which I'm quite proficient at, I don't need a lot of instruction what, where, when, or how, or, you know, on other things. So we all have different readiness levels based upon our experience, our education, our talent. And so good leaders adjust their leadership style to the readiness level of the people that are leading. So that's situational leadership in a nutshell. And I love teaching it. And I weave that quite extensively into all of my coaching, all of my coaching.

So before we get to that, tell us how you got that job. That's what I want to know.

Well, you know, it was— Let's see. You know, a little context. You know, my mother was one of 17 children.

Whoa.

17. Yeah. I have 68 first cousins on my mother's side alone. And I was always sort of somebody that everybody said had tremendous potential, but was the class clown and, you know, screwed around. I wasn't a very particularly good student. I was a good athlete, but not a particularly good student. Uh, you know, I got out of high school, went to college, you know, I was in the Navy during Vietnam, uh, you know, got out, went to law school, didn't like it, ski bummed for a couple of years, and, uh, decided to start law school again. And, you know, actually met some people in the film business in California. I just was here. I never, never dreamed of being an actor or anything. And, you know, I went to a couple of classes with somebody and I just said, you know, I could do it. How hard is this? I mean, you know, I can do this. And, you know, so, you know, I quit law school again and I moved to New York. I was going to be a serious artist. And, you know, I did a lot of theater in New York and soap operas and commercials and stuff. And I got cast in a film to come out here, you know, with John Ritter, Three's Company, if you I don't remember. He's dead now.

Yes.

And, uh, I got a big play to come back to California. Went back to New York, packed up my wife, and we drove cross-country. And when we got here, we found out she was pregnant. And then I was told by my mother that I had to go to a wedding of a cousin of mine in Pasadena. And I said, oh, Mom, well, you know, come on, I don't even know them. They don't know me. You know, she's just one— he's just one of your 17 brothers, 11 brothers. And, you know, I mean, why do I have to go? And she said, Christopher, you are going because I'm asking you to.

Well, okay.

So I went. And at that wedding, I met a cousin of mine who was the managing partner at the Center for Leadership Studies with Paul Hersey and Frank and Marshall. You know, and he was an adult and I was trying to become an adult. And now that I was going to have a child and And everything else, trying to figure out, you know, how to be an adult. And so he invited me down to sit through a class Paul Hersey was teaching. There were probably 30 people there, you know, college professors and everybody else. And at the end, I had been brought down that maybe I could facilitate these um, 3/4-inch videotapes. You know, everybody didn't go get their PhD to put on videotapes of Paul Hersey, because everybody that worked there was a former college professor and had their PhD. I certainly didn't. And, uh, Hersey was interviewing me. You know, he had his gold chains on and he drove his Ferrari and he had his Rolex and, you know, all of that. I didn't know him, and I go in and he interviews me. He says, well, you know, Joe tells me you might want to do this. You have no background. You know, how can you possibly teach this to corporate executives? I said, I don't know. You know, I mean, Joe kind of thought that I could do this. And, you know, my background. And he said, okay. He said, well, what if you're in front of a class and you— somebody asks you a question and then you don't know the answer? What would you do? Well, I'd probably turn it around and, you know, ask the class and get them discussing it, whatever. He said, okay, that's a good technique. But what if then they said, well, what do you think? And I, you know, I was a poor kid growing up and I grew up in a, you know, in a government project. And, you know, I was, you know, I Didn't take the authority terribly well. And, and I said to him, well, I said, then I'd call a break and I'd call you because you know everything and you'd give me the answer and I'd go back in. I'd tell him the answer.

I love this.

And I just, I had enough of this. And, you know, the whole meeting lasted 10 minutes. And when I went, I got a certification, they spelled my name wrong. You know, I was done with this. You know, I thought, this is just foolish. And I drive home and the next day my cousin calls me and he says, Hersey wants to hire you. And I said, really?

Yeah.

Now, what I found out, there were 3 other college professors that were in this class that wanted that part-time job. So, you know, they gave me the— so, you know, several months later I was sitting on Paul's boat with him. And, uh, I said to him—

What?

Yeah, well, they had a big boat in San Diego, and, you know, we're sitting there having a glass of cognac or whatever we're having, and, and Paul, Paul liked me. He liked me. And, uh, and he— and I said to him, why me? And he said, well, you know, he said, a lot of people get in front of corporate executives And, you know, they pontificate and, you know, they talk down to them. And so many of them are college professors that are used to having 20-year-olds in front of them. And, you know, and that 20-year-old's hanging on every word. Well, business executives, you know, middle managers or whatever, that doesn't impress them a whole bunch. And he said, so somebody has to be able to get up there and teach this stuff and be entertaining. and, uh, you know, have the skill up front to do this. And I just thought that you would have that. And I said, well, thank you. And that was it. And, uh, you know, I love being in front of an audience and, and teaching. And, uh, I became a sponge though. I really became a sponge. Paul, uh, Marshall, Frank, Tim Bloom, John Green, all of these people that were there just started to give me books to read and things to do. And I really became a sponge for the first time in my academic career and started to learn everything. And then other consulting firms brought me in to teach strategic selling, negotiation. They taught me the concepts and I loved it. And I was learning all along the way. So for the better part of 20 years, I was a stand-up trainer. And I got to teach at UCLA. Frank Wagner got me into UCLA in their prestigious technical manager program where I taught Sit Lead, Excellent Manager, DNA of Teams, Influence Without Authority, Strategic Planning. And these are all things over 20 years at UCLA from probably 1990 to 2010. It was great. Twice a year, In this very prestigious UCLA program. And I loved it. So that's pretty much been my career. And then around 2000, Marshall, Frank, and I reconnected when we really got into coaching. And so what I feel fortunate is to be able to take all of the stuff that I've taught for 20 years and really incorporate it into my coaching. And that's really rewarding. You know, so often at the end of a training program, you have people fill out the smile sheets and they rate the professor and they rate, were you entertaining and was it useful and were the chairs comfortable and all of that stuff. But you never really found out, did anybody ever really take this stuff and do anything with it?

Mm-hmm.

And so that was It was always rewarding to get the reviews. Uh, you know, I mean, one of the ways I referred to it was the consultant beauty contest, you know, and, you know, and I did well in those, uh, being entertaining and, you know, and doing all of that and teaching it. The coaching really— I love it. It's, you know, I'm a teacher at heart, uh, I guess. In fact, now when I put down on applications for things, people say your occupation. I don't put down executive coach or consultant. I put down teacher. That's what I am.

So, I love the story. So, right place, right time, and thank you to mom.

Thank you, mom. Thank you, mom. I mean, you think about moments in your life that, you know, the road less traveled. You can go down this path or that path. And what path do you take? I mean, I remember my mother, you know, didn't have a lot of education, but, you know, one of the things she always said, Chris, there's always 2 choices. There's always at least 2 choices, and you can take this road or that road. And thinking through, you know, what's the choice you want to make?

Mm-hmm.

And then, you know, and another seminal moment was, you know, when I got out of grammar school. I was raised Irish Catholic and I went to a little Catholic grammar school. And the principal came to my parents and said, look, if he goes to the public high school, you got a good chance of having him a juvenile delinquent. I mean, he gets in trouble. No big trouble, just a class clown and doing things that, you know, I was a class president, but I was also the class clown. And so, he really suggested that they get me down to the Jesuit prep school, which was 30 miles from my hometown in Connecticut. And I didn't particularly want to go, but I got in. And I spent 4 years with the Jesuits. And in fact, my homeroom teacher senior year in prep school was a guy named John McLaughlin. who had the McLaughlin Group on TV for years. Yeah. And it was interesting. He challenged me to get on the debating team and this and that. And, you know, I think of seminal moments, you know, that just changed my life.

Yes.

He said to me, you're going to be a teacher. And I thought he meant teaching 4th grade English or something. I said, I'm not going to be a teacher. I'm going to go to law school. And, you know, here I am a teacher. So—

That's funny. So I want to go back to the leadership. So you spoke about situational leadership. What other leadership styles are there, Chris?

Well, look, I mean, in situational leadership, they talk about directing, coaching, participating, and delegating. You know, directing, you know, providing what, where, when, and how. You know, so if you have somebody who's, you know, and again, my computer guy is very Style 1 with me. Do this, Chris, go there. In fact, you know, let me get on your screen and do it for you because it'll just be quicker. And that's fine with me because I know I'll never be good at it. I don't have a lot of desire to be good at it. Coaching. Coaching is more, okay, you got somebody who has the desire, they want to learn. But they need coaching. It's like teaching a young kid how to ski or play golf or read, finding out what they like to do, what interests them, and giving them the opportunity with structure how to get better. Repeated, purposeful, focused attention. I tell people, golf and skiing are my 2 passions athletically. And it's just as hard to break a good habit as it is a bad habit. Most people plateau, whether it's golf or skiing. They get to the level where they can take their God-given potential and work it. And one of my questions to people, like the guy, I'll give you an example. One of the guys I play golf with about a year ago said to me, you know, you really over the last year have improved your game.

Yeah.

Anybody that understands golf, I've gone from shooting in the 90s to shooting in the 70s. And I shot my age actually a couple weeks ago. But be that as it may, he said to me, you really have improved. And I said, well, I put effort into it. I take lessons and I work it and I hit balls and I work on things. And he said to me, well, he said, I want to get better. And I smiled and I said, well, You just don't want it enough.

Haha.

And I said, well, look, I'd like to dance better, I'd like to sing better, I'd like to speak 3 languages. I mean, there's a whole bunch of things I would like if I could wave a magic wand to be better at. But the question is, how good do you want to be? And how much effort— I don't even say work— effort, time, Do you want to put in? And if that's the case, get good instruction.

Mm-hmm.

Get good instruction and learn how to do it. And most people from skiing and golf, I mean, I grew up doing both but never had instruction. We never had any money for instruction. So, I plateaued at both until I said, Probably about 10, 12 years ago, I'm going to get instruction on both. And I said, I want to see how good I can become at both. And I put the effort in, I spent some money, and, uh, I'm good at both.

Okay.

How good do you want? And again, I, I want to be, I want to be careful here. If somebody is happy going around, just walking around a golf course, and that's all they really care about, or skiing green runs or whatever, God bless them. I do not judge that. And in fact, even in my coaching, I've had people say, and I'll ask the question right at the beginning, how good do you want to be at this particular skill that you're picking to work on? I can't answer that for you. I can help you get there, but you've got to want to get there.

Okay, Chris, let me get in a word edgewise here. All right, so you've got under 2 forms of leadership underneath the situational. You're talking about coaching, directive, what else?

Coaching, well, you got style 1, which is directive. Style 2 is coaching. Style 3 is participating or supporting. And that segues over into— it becomes more the person you're leading's decision on how to make, how to move forward. It's not all the structure coming from the leader. So for instance, you may have somebody that something's rather new to them. they have ideas. So if they come in and they're looking for— maybe they just want to bounce their ideas off of you. You got to be careful of saying, no, no, no, no, here's what you need to do. How do you help somebody think it through? And I would say the thing that I teach leaders that's the most effective now is the whole skill of what I call— what we call argumentation or debate. And I wrote a book. I wrote a book called The New IQ, which is Innovative questions. IQ stands for innovative questions. What, you know, to quote the great philosopher Spinoza, I judge a person more by the questions they ask than the answers they give. So to be a good facilitator, you know, I'll often say to a leader, go into a discussion with the intention of proving yourself to be incorrect.

Not right.

How do you get— so Style 3 is more, okay, what do you see as the upside of this?

Mm-hmm.

What do you see as the downside of this? What would happen if— help the person think it through. That's what they're coming in for because they do have some expertise. Maybe it's relatively new. Maybe this is a little different. And then delegate is when somebody's able, willing, and confident and they know more about it than you do. Then you turn it over to them. A lot of leadership says, well, in order to be successful, you got to delegate, delegate, delegate. Well, you got to delegate appropriately. If you delegate to somebody who doesn't know, you get bad decisions quickly. So the ability to be flexible as a leader and ask good questions, not with the intention of proving yourself to be right, but to help somebody else really think it through. And do a cost-benefit analysis. What's the upside? What's the downside? What could go wrong? You know, that's huge.

Okay, we got 3. What's the 4th?

Delegate. The 4th would be delegate. You know, turn over responsibility for the decisions and the implementation to somebody that knows how to do it. They know how to do it.

Why are leaders afraid to delegate?

I think it starts early on when they first become a first-line manager. Very often that first-line manager was the expert at what they did. They promoted this person to supervisor or manager. Quite frankly, they're the best at doing everything that they're responsible to do. And it's also, you know, I want to show that I'm good. I want to show that this wasn't a mistake putting me here. Uh, and so they get overworked and they tend to do everything. And, uh, they, they never develop the people below them. And, and so I think a lot of it is, I don't—

I—

if I got to push this upstairs to my boss, it needs to be Correct. And too often correct means being done the way I would do it.

I was just going to ask you, how does ego fit into this?

Well, ego's huge. I mean, you know, and, you know, and to me, I want people that have a good, healthy ego. They're self-confident. But the other side of that is being arrogant. You know, self-confidence. I mean, somebody who's truly confident is very capable of saying, I was wrong. That was a mistake. I know more now than I knew last month. So let's change tack. People that are insecure need to be pompous and blowhards and never admit mistakes.

Yes.

And, you know, always telling people what to do. So, you know, I love telling people, look, I'm wrong a lot. I make a lot of decisions quickly. Without all the information, somebody presents new information, you know what? That's new information. That's new information.

That's my 4-legged agreeing with you. So the benefits and the downside of being locked in with COVID Yes, yes. Chris, that's 4. Is there a 5th one?

I think you could have subsets of them, I suppose. But direct, coach, participate, delegate to me are really— I think too often we consultants and coaches want to get into the minutiae and too many of the absolute finite this and that. It's got to be done this way. To me, there's multiple ways to get to something. And one of the things I think we don't do that I often teach in my coaching is right up front I'll say, What do you see as the ideal final result of this? If you could wave a magic wand and make it perfect, what would it look like? Knowing that perfect only exists in the dictionary. Okay, so what would the ideal final result be? And then backtrack. As Stephen Covey said, begin with the end in mind. Get clear on what it is we want.

Okay, Chris, let's take this into challenges.

Okay.

Which of either the leadership styles, or what do you see is not happening right? What's not correct in leaders today?

You mentioned egos. I think too often leaders rely— well, to quote Marshall's book, what got you here won't get you there. You know, very often—

Hold on one second, Chris. Um, London, come here. Come here. He sees the UPS guy. So it's time for me to get him a treat because we're under siege here. This is the— this is life of living with a Karen-terrier. Okay, hold on. Do you want to meet everybody, London? Okay, wait a second. Oh, all right, this is the little momster. Everybody meet Sir London Slate Bowman.

Well, hello, London.

I think you met him in California.

I did, I did.

So to answer your— to answer my question, What do you see as the problem today in today's leadership? And you can go with more than one answer.

Well, I think to a large extent, it's again, to quote Martin, what got you here won't get you there. So often you get to that VP level, senior VP level, you know, what is it going to take to get to the next level? That pyramid gets smaller and smaller. And, and, you know, I think for leaders, you know, having a generous mindset— one of the things Jack Welch did tremendously well at GE was building bench strength. So, you know, division leaders and managers all the way down, one of the key criteria was developing the talent underneath you. Not every company talks about it. But the whole idea of how do we develop the talent underneath us?

Mm-hmm.

And I think to a large extent, a lot of times, not just leaders in companies, how do we create a mindset of continuous learning? You know, my sign-off on my email says, learn as if you're going to live forever, live as if you're going to die tomorrow, and be happy now. And that's really my philosophy of life for me personally. And I can, I can go into length on what each one of those mean.

Yeah.

Learn as if you're gonna live forever. You know, how do you, as you move up in organizations, what is it that I— and I think a good question to ask your manager is, if this position opened up, Could I get your highest possible recommendation for that position? What do you see as my strengths for that position? And what are areas that from your point of view I need to work on to be ready for that position when it opens up? I don't think enough people ask that of their manager. If I'm coaching somebody, I say to their boss, do you know where he wants to be? Or she wants to be. What do you see as their strengths? What do you see as areas for them to improve? And very often the number one reason people get passed over is there's no ready replacement for somebody for their job. So often in my coaching, I'll say, look, you know, be irreplaceable in this position. And you may see that as a Strengths. But let's be clear. If you want to get to there, who's going to replace you? Well, there isn't anybody qualified to replace me. Well, what are you doing about that? What are you doing about that if you want to move forward?

Mm-hmm.

So I think one of the challenges is how do you create a learning mindset, continuously saying, If I want to get to that C-suite, what are my strengths? What are the areas I need to improve? And asking people. When I start a coaching engagement, I'll interview a dozen people around this person and say, what do you see as this person's strengths as a leader and a manager? What are areas you feel that they need to improve, they could become more effective? I don't say get better, could be more effective at and be recognized and acknowledged as more effective at. The perception key to this. What do you think the most important thing for them to focus on? And what suggestions would you give them?

Chris, let me ask you a different kind of question, but sort of the same. You've worked with so many C-suite people at the very top of the organization. What do you hear is the number one and number two complaint from the board of directors about leaders in the organization?

I can't really talk from the board of directors' point of view with a lot of expertise. But I can talk about working with division presidents in Fortune 100 companies, the senior VPs, the chief financial officers. A lot of the focus becomes, if you're successful, maintaining the status quo. And how do you— you know, when I've taught strategy, you know, it's think strategically, focus sharply, move quickly. Think strategically, getting people to think about future factors, you know, address assumptions, anticipate the future, and identify strategic issues that are right in front of you. And if you look at what's going on today, and instead of what they tell me, it's just, to me, it's clear on its face. I mean, a new acronym that's come into our lexicon in the last year is DEI, diversity, inclusion, equality. Is that a trend or is it a fad? I mean, I ask a lot of questions of people without saying, I can tell you how to run this oil company. And I think looking at trends, what's going on when you get up to that C-suite, it's just not in your organization.

Let me add one, a trend. What I think added to that mix that you just gave is a reality, a necessity of life that's been ignored. So it's not a trend or a fad. It's a reality.

Okay. And if it's a reality, one of my questions to people often is, well, is that your opinion?

Or do you—

is that your— is that a fact? Or is that your opinion? And I think a lot of people today look at things that they say are facts that are their opinion. So let me go to, let me go to argumentation.

What got me to that statement is, if you look at D&I, that is not a fact or a trend. So where are we going to place that?

Well, say more. I mean, it's 4 words. It's 3 words that have come into—

The acronym itself. But what the acronym stands for is not a trend or fad. It's talking about social justice. And we would hope it's not a fad or a trend. Right?

Absolutely.

So yeah, so I just want to recognize that there is a 3rd level of exploring, questioning, and responding to.

So one of my expressions I use often when people say, you know, I say words have meanings. Words have meanings. So let's define what we mean by whatever the word is. We need to be successful. I agree. Let's define success.

I agree.

What would it look like? What would it look like? And it's interesting how people have difficulty laying out what would that look like. Come up with in California? Well, diversity here in corporations are we have to have a certain mix of different groups of people on the board of directors. Well, that is a clear definition. That is a clear definition. Universities for a long time said affirmative action. Well, we need A set number. Okay. How do we get to that number? Again, it's easy to come up with a conclusion. Then how do you get there?

Oh, absolutely.

One of my questions often is, what do we need? What is today?

What needs to be done?

Exactly. So one of my— absolutely. Absolutely. How does it get done? It's easy to come up with a measurement. You know, XYZ group is X percent of the population, and there should be that many people represented. I mean, you can come up with those numbers. And then, okay, is that fair? I don't know. I mean, you got to come up with it. Do we create a meritocracy? What does that mean? How do you get there? And so I think often challenges for the C-suite and everything else is to come up with how do we define it? And so one of my questions, and I've gone through this with a number of clients, and I see the pluses and I see the minuses and I see the challenges. And I see what's tending to happen in some big companies. And I can share a couple of those stories that are real stories. Now, I also do believe that—

Oh no, go back and share some of those stories, Chris.

Well, okay, I will. But a lot of senior people will share things with an external coach. just to debate and discuss and to talk about that they would never share inside.

Absolutely.

And there's a lot of people afraid to express their opinions today because there are consequences. I mean, we're going— I mean, as you look at trends in the media—

The entire cancel culture.

Right. I mean, it's So is that a trend or is that a— will that go away? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, you can look at— and again, one of the things I pride myself on when I teach argumentation, let me give you the 4 components of argumentation. Somebody makes—

Please do.

Somebody makes a claim. Man is responsible primarily for global warming. Well, that's a claim. It's a claim somebody's making.

Okay.

We are a racist country. That's a claim somebody's making.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, then underneath claim, what's the evidence you have to support your claim?

Mm-hmm.

Types of evidence: examples, statistics, tangible objects, eyewitness, social consensus, common knowledge, Shared values, shared historical understanding, precedent. They're all the buckets into which you can put evidence.

Mm-hmm.

And then after evidence, you got a fancy word, you know, inference, which is really nothing more than what's, you know, connecting the evidence to the claim.

Mm-hmm.

You know, what's the proof line? You've, you've made a claim. You've taken this evidence and you're connecting that evidence to the claim. And it's easy to cherry-pick, cherry-pick the evidence you want to use.

Mm-hmm.

And then warrant. Warrant is the last component. What gives you the right from a subject matter expertise point of view to make the claim in the first place?

Mm-hmm.

And so what people like Coach really like, I say, you can take any point, any claim you want and take either side of it, and I'll take the other side.

Mm-hmm.

Or what I pride myself on is often they'll bring things up and I'll say, you tell me, you pick something. I don't care what it is. You tell me the side you want to take and I'll take the other side and we'll have a little fun with it. And they'll prepare because that's the debate. I love debating the opposite side of what I believe to be true.

Why?

Well, because the more I dig into the other side that I disagree with, it challenges my own beliefs. Hmm.

Okay.

Most of us, most of us want to live in a world where, you know, we surround ourselves with people that think alike.

It's easier.

I mean, you know, who wants, you know, and to me, so often argumentation has a pejorative connotation. Don't argue with your brother. Don't argue with me. And I think to a very large extent, people have lost the skill of debating. Yeah, I've got a point of view, you've got a point of view. You know, we can have a beer, a glass of wine, and let's argue our point of view.

You know, it almost goes from a claim to the cancel culture.

Absolutely.

Instantly.

Instantly. Now, who do I blame for that? Our education system. I spent eight years with the Jesuits, prep school and college. If there was anything I learned, was how to express my point of view and build a case. I was a philosophy minor in college. No, no, you know. So, you know.

There you have it.

Well. you know, I always felt if I could fill blue books with a lot of drivel, they wouldn't read it all. At least they'd pass me. So, you know, because in so much of that, you know, it's, you know, I can go Aristotle, you know, John Locke, Voltaire, Rousseau. I mean, I know all these. I mean, I— so I like big ideas. I like big ideas. And I like to be able to debate different ideas. But I think it's a skill that's been lost. I mean, just look at college campuses, you got safe zones, and you got— if somebody's offended on any level, it's, you know, I mean, it's just to me, that's dangerous. It's dangerous. That's a direction that I, I just, I, I can't go there.

Okay, but Chris, we've got 15 minutes left. Let's take this ability to debate, to argue, to converse— what we just used to say, converse. You know, I'm from the era that you went to Greenwich Village in the coffee houses Right. And you sat there and you debated your thumbnail for 2 hours, and you walked away feeling rejuvenated and, you know, pumped. Okay, we've lost that. How does somebody in the C-suite bring that kind of energy back into the corporate space? Because that's where creativity comes from, is my belief. I'm also a graduate of the New School for Social Research. We learned how to argue. We learned how to debate. But how do we bring that into the corporate or organizational environment without punitive results?

Okay, I'm going to tell you a couple little stories. I was working with the division president. And I interviewed, you know, the C-suite around him. And it came back that people really liked him. He was a Brit, very erudite, had gone to Oxford or Cambridge or something, I don't remember. And the feedback back to him was they were a bit intimidated by him. And, you know, and they complained about not really having the opportunity in their staff meetings to debate things. And so people didn't speak up. So when I'm debriefing this with the president, you know, he gets a little huffy. And he said, damn it, we're all big boys and girls here. We're getting paid a lot of money. You know, we really need to mix it up and this and that, you know, in these and challenge each other's point of view. And I said, I agree. I can't disagree with that. And he said, you know, I mean, you're just whining. And I said, well, okay, that's a point of view. I said, you were on the debating team at Oxford, weren't you? He said, I was. Now, I learned that from somebody that I interviewed who said to me, you know, It's not a level playing field in there. He knows more about these things than we do. And he's— and so I said to him, you went to— you were on the debating team at Oxford. And he said, yes, I was. And I said, well, this may come as news to you. None of them were. I said, you know, I said, you're pretty good at undressing somebody in a meeting, aren't you? You're good at it. I'm good at it. I can do that at a cocktail party if I choose to. With the questions I ask, I can take somebody right down a path and then make them look like a fool. And I said, you're good at this. They're not going to challenge your thinking in a meeting. And then he said to me, well, you know what, one other young— the youngest guy in the C-suite, Might have been the chief legal counsel. He does. And I said, yeah, he was on the debating team at Dartmouth. And I said, and you know, you've kind of taken him under your wing, as you know, I mean, and you two debate each other and everybody else watches theater. That's what they watch. You two go at it. But the rest of them aren't going to do that because it's not a level playing field. So we talked about it and he went in the meeting. He said, I got my 360. Here's what you said I'm good at. Here's some areas I need to work on. I know a lot of you have been recipients of some humiliating behavior from me. I apologize. I apologize. We do need to debate in here. We need to mix up ideas. I'm going to do a much better job of listening, looking for what I agree with before what I tell you I don't quite see the same way. We need to do that. Now, a couple of people called me and said, well, let's see who does that first. And my coaching to this person was, look, you have to— I want— I said to him, I want you— here's a little task for next time. I want you to count how many times in your hour staff meeting you choose to not comment or speak on what somebody says. And I asked him, I said, of the hour staff meeting, what percentage of time do you think you speak versus others? He said, I probably speak 30%, 40% of the time. I said, I want you to eyeball it next time. Just, you know, kind of keep track of, you know, in the hour, how much time are you talking versus others? Because I don't know. He said 30%, 40%.

And I—

and so I said, call me after. He called and he said, you know, it's interesting. I was very cognizant of that. And he said, I still— I'm sure I still spoke over 50% of the time. I said, what'd you learn from that? He said, I just love to hear myself talk.

That's great.

That's huge. That's huge. So I said, here's what I want you to do the next one. I want you to count how many times you choose not to comment. If 2 people are going at it a little bit, why interject yourself? Let them go. Because everybody's waiting for you to say, well, okay, here's what I've decided. And what you find out from that is who really thinks in here, who's coming up with new ideas. You can't mandate have new ideas. Right. How do you change what you do to encourage more discussion? In daily sheets that I have executives put out, I'll say, how many did you defer to somebody else's point of view today? Did you build off of somebody else's idea today? Did you admit that you We're wrong about anything. And it's fascinating, the epiphanies people have. I mean, the whole concept of the daily sheet is really starting to monitor your own behavior. If you interrupt somebody, apologize.

I'm sorry. Boy, I feel like I've been in class because, you know, it's, it's— I'm not gonna tie myself to running my company.

I, I have, I have so many stories of, of, of, of people who, you know, one of the things I pride myself on is at the end of a coaching engagement when people say to me, you know, I know we've, we've, we've worked on my behavior and things that I'm doing and the action plan. But you really have me thinking differently. I think differently now. Instead of listening with, what do I disagree with, I start to listen for what I agree with. Hmm. And I start with what I agree with before what I disagree with. That's huge. So, you know, and I think the C-suite really needs to take a look at what direction are we going. Again, I've asked people to say, well, diversity, inclusion, and equality. Okay, I agree with all of those words. They're important. What do you need to do as a company to be more diverse? What do you need to do more of? Less of, start doing, and stop doing that you're not doing now in order to be diverse? I haven't had one person come up with specific things. One person said, well, we just need to be more cognizant and aware of what we're doing. What does that mean? What does that— yeah, okay, I can agree with that. Well, what are you going to— but if you look at the company today in terms of diversity, are you promoting the most qualified person into that position? Or are you saying, we need to have more of this particular group being represented. And what's the cost of that if you start losing? And another quick story I'll tell you is a woman that I was working with at a Fortune 100 company was being put on the— this is a year ago, maybe 2 years ago— on the diversity committee. And at the end of our coach, you know, our little time together on the phone, she said, I'm being put on that. And she said, I'd really like to get your thoughts on that. You know, I really— she said, she was a VP. And she said, I will probably be the lowest-ranking person in this group. It's all senior people. And she said, I really love the way you ask questions and do this. So, and I said, look, I'm no expert on diversity. I don't know any more about it than the average civilian, probably. I mean, I, you know, but I can help you think things through. And she said to me, well, okay. And I said, so for instance, when you say diversity, are we talking diversity of thought or diversity of Gender, race, ethnicity? I mean, what is— when you say diversity, I'm all for diversity of thought. You surround yourself with people that all think like you, what diversity are you going to get? Who's a wild duck that you can put in there and say, what about this? And listen to them. And she said, well, I think most of our diversity is around You know, people, you know, not that— I said, well, okay. I said, what if you were to ask the group to define diversity? I said, now, I'm going to throw some stuff out that you have to think about your career here. You know, I mean, how uncomfortable do you want to make this group? You know, I mean, because— I can give you that. But, you know, I said, let's, let's, you know, you know, like, you know, when people talk about people not speaking up at work, I said, look, it's easy for me to speak up because my life isn't dependent on that out there. But if, if you're a schoolteacher or you're working in a company, you know, you got a couple of kids and a wife and a mortgage and college tuition, you got to say, you know, I'd like to open my mouth a little bit more, but, you know, that'd be career limiting.

Yeah.

So how does that ceaselessly encourage people? To speak up. I don't know.

No, I don't know. Chris, one thing, we've got 2 minutes. What is a daily sheet for people who are listening in?

A daily sheet, I mean, if I think even if, you know, if somebody wants examples of one, I mean, I, you know, if somebody were to email me, I mean, I could, I could send them to a link here or there, you know, and, or send them a couple that are mine. But Marshall, in his book Triggers, in his book Triggers, lays out about 20 or 30 items. I mean, how many glasses of water did you drink? Did you write today? I mean, he does a whole number. For me, I like people to really have no more than 6 or 8 specific things. And in our coaching, remember, people pick a goal, they have to share that goal With the stakeholders and their action plan. What specifically are they going to do? Because to me, the best teaching model is tell people what you're going to do, then do it, and then say, did I do what I said I was going to do? It's easy to say, well, I'm going to do this. But building that with the stakeholders— and so you take the action plan. And one of the things that I do for somebody is I really make them behavioral. So a daily sheet would incorporate little things like, did I defer to somebody's point of view today? Did I consciously build off of somebody else's ideas today? Did I look people in the eye when I was speaking with them and not multitask? It's really things that are personal to you that you want to do a better job of.

Yeah.

Did I work out today? You know, I mean, if you want to get into a personal deal, you know, it's like losing weight. You're counting calories. I mean, all of these 12-step programs, what are you going to do today? And it's the same thing. It's not rocket science. You don't need a big form. You know, did I say something nice to my spouse today?

I love it. And, and just for our listeners, I, uh, I think Marshall is calling this now a life planning review, an LPR. And, uh, it's a great process, especially if you have somebody that can, uh, go through it with you. So they have a life planning review, an LPR, you have one, maybe a third person, and you're accountable. To yourself as well as the group. So it's a wonderful supportive mechanism. Yes, Chris.

One thing I can say, I read an article a long time ago, I think it was an ASTD journal or whatever, and, you know, and it said if you set a goal, the likelihood of achieving it is about 25%. If you set a goal and build an action plan, 50%. If you set a goal, build a plan, and Wow. If you set a goal, build a plan, tell somebody, and build a mutual accountability, you're looking at 90% to 95%, especially with successful people. So the whole idea is tell people what you're going to do, tell them what you're going to do, and then say, hold me accountable to do these things. It's not rocket science.

It's hard. It's not rocket science, and it's difficult.

It's difficult.

Yeah.

No, often people say to me, well, you know, that's all nice to think differently and argue and debate and whatever, you know, how do I open up my mind? I have a simple formula: subscribe to a thoughtful publication. That infuriates you and read it. I mean, if you only watch Fox, you only get their point of view. If you only watch MSNBC or see, you get their point of view. If you only read the New York Times, you get the New York Times point of view. So if you want to open up, read things that you say, wow, and, and really read them with an open mind.

It reminds me of an exercise that I had at the New School, which was to take 3 newspapers, same subject matter, read the headlines, and read the slight twist in the same subject matter in terms of how they bring you over to your side. But those were the days of Marshall McCullin, so Enough said there, right?

Yeah. And we've lost so much of that.

We have. We have.

And it's sad. I mean, so back again to the C-suite, looking at trends, what's going on? How does this impact my company? I mean, think about it. If you're in the energy business, how is the decisions that the Biden administration is impacting our business? If you're in the healthcare business, are we going to go towards single payer? I mean, these are all big questions For the CEOs of these types of companies. Yeah, it's huge. Yeah. And without thinking— I mean, you can go down the list. How did Howard Johnson's disappear? And Macy's and Sears? And I mean, all of these people owned an industry.

Yeah.

But without forward thinking about where are we going, the internet has structurally changed the world.

Well, take a look at Good to Great. How many companies are still there that Jim talked about in that book?

Yeah. Go back to In Search of Excellence.

Another one.

I mean, you know, again, I mean, so nothing lasts forever, you know? And one of my existential questions is, is democracy sustainable long-term? Never has been. The Greeks only lasted 100 years from the Battle of Marathon until they put Socrates to death. The Roman Republic only lasted a couple hundred years. The Empire lasted a long time. The British Empire. I mean, we're 250 years old. We're right at the cusp of when it ends. When it ends.

I mean, And we're seeing signs of it breaking now. We're seeing signs of it breaking now. Cancel culture.

Yes. And, you know, uh, and, and, and too many of the young people don't get any competing point of view at college today.

They don't.

It's you either believe this, here's what Howard Zinn says about the United States, and that's it. And You know, you know, I mean, we can look at the warts that we have and how do we create a more perfect union and all of those things. But if, if as soon as you say something, you're dismissed. One of my questions to people is, if we have a different point of view, I'll say, you know, if new information were presented, are you open to changing your mind or is your mind already made up and nothing's going to change it? My mind's made up. I said, well, conversation over then. Why would I waste my breath? I mean, really, you know, I mean, why? Yeah, I'm not going to change their mind. Now, one of the things I do is if somebody, you know, and I can— without getting into specifics, I know somebody's wrong. I know it. I mean, I know the facts, and they say, and they say to me, I'm wrong. And I say, well, maybe I am wrong. I could be wrong. I don't have any crystal ball. But I said, if I'm not wrong, would you be willing to reconsider your point of view? Now, everybody says yes to that because it's generic.

Mm-hmm.

And then I just go and I Google and I come up with some information and a few links to back up my point of view. And I email them to them. And I say, after you peruse through these, you know, if you want to pick up our discussion, I'd love to have it. Zero people have ever called me back. Once people have made up their mind, once they've made up their mind, if they're not open to new information, it's shoveling against the tide. You're wasting your time.

Well, with that, Chris, I have to end. We're 7 minutes over, but I didn't want to stop the conversation because it was so rich.

Thank you.

And I hope our listeners, our new listeners, our existing listeners, are open for new information to open their mind. That's all I'm going to say. So if you are, Even if you're not, tune in again on Thursday where we talk about equity and quality in the workplace. And then next Tuesday, where we have another guest for Challenges of the C-Suite. Chris, thank you. Thank you.

Can you send me the YouTube link or whatever? Because I'll get it out to people to watch it.

Of course I will. This has been a great conversation. And I want you to send it to everybody you debate so they're prepared.

I'm always ready. And what I love to tell people, I'm open to changing my mind. Convince me. Build the case.

We'll end with that.

All right.

Adios. Chris, you stay there. Audience, have a successful week. Take this new information, try it out. Let me know how it works. This is exciting stuff. This is CB Bowman Live. We'll see you next week if we don't see you on Thursday.