Challenges of the C-Suite with Bonnie Hagemann, Episode 33

Hello everyone. Guess what? I'm back. This is CB Bowman live with Challenges of the C-Suite. You know, it is Tuesday. Hey, what do you think about my new lipstick color? Hmm. I don't know. I think it makes me look older and I need everything I can do to make me look younger these days. And notice the new hair. This is gonna change back. I— yeah, uh, I'm not rocking this one. But you know, you have to test things. You have to keep it fresh, right? So along with keeping it fresh, do I have a fresh guest today. I am so glad you tuned in because you are going to meet Bonnie. Bonnie is a kick-ass woman. Of the truest definition. And you know, that's my favorite phrase because that's the only kind of women that I know, right? We get out there and we hit the ground running and we move things so that we can benefit and other women can benefit. And Bonnie has written a phenomenal book about us as women sitting on boards You know, that's my passion is to get women on boards. And I didn't even know this until about 15 minutes ago. I mean, what— how could CB Bowman not know this? And what's worse, my organization, the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches, gave her a Thought Leader Award this year. Where am I? This is pretty pathetic. I'll tell you where I am. I'm making broadcasts for you all and bringing the best of the best and working on my diversity and equity work that, you know, I do and very excited about it. But I'm going back now to my coaching space and welcoming Bonnie. Wait till you hear the book she has written. Bonnie, welcome.

Thank you so much for having me, CB. And if I could weigh in, I do like your lipstick color. Thank you. Oh, you do?

My husband likes me in bright red, and I just got tired of it, and I thought, I'm gonna order this on Amazon and see how it works.

Looks great.

Thank you, thank you. It's a good fall color, right?

It is.

So, Bonnie, thank you for weighing in. And tell us first, let's start at the beginning. Tell us about you as a little person, as when you first came on board and hit the ground running.

Well, I don't know how far back you want me to go. I can give you just the highlights. I grew up on a farm in western Oklahoma. And I went in, I initially thought I was going to teach at a university. And so I started going down the teaching path, taught high high school English for 3 years, hated it with, uh, an immense passion. And so I went back, got a master's degree in counseling psychology. Then I started working with business and industry in a technology center that served juniors, seniors, adults, and business and industry. And when I— as soon as I did, I— we worked with a company called Ditch Witch. That was my first company to work with. And I was doing some career coaching for mid-level managers at Ditch Witch. And what all of a sudden I was like, oh, this is where I fit. I fit in corporate because, you know, growing up on a farm, I was raised exactly like a western Oklahoma boy. Like, I was in the fields, I was in the tractors. And so it was all about results and production. And, and public education isn't really like that. So when I made it to corporate, especially at a company like Ditch Witch, you know, where I was doing this work, I was like, this is it, I fit here. So I've been in corporate ever since. I did some management work. I worked for CPP, the publisher of the Myers-Briggs and other great assessments like the CPI. And then I went and started running my own firms in 2001, acquired EDA in 2007, and we are building technology.

What's EDA? And what do you mean you acquired it? And before you answer that, I have a message from a I think her name— well, I'm just going to go with the last name because I don't want to butcher the first name. Miss Carter, she says, I'm in for 30 minutes. I abbreviated one of my meetings because I really wanted to join today. Well, Miss Carter, welcome, and please send us your questions. Okay, now, EDA.

So EDA is a company that has been in business since 1982. It was founded by Jim Bolt. And so all— many of your listeners I know will know Marshall Goldsmith. Well, Marshall and Jim Bolt are very good friends. In fact, Marshall will tell you that Jim had a major impact on his career, and Marshall married Jim and one of his ex-wives. And so—

Okay.

So, but they're— everything's still good. They're still very close. Not Marshall— I mean, yes, Marshall and Jim, but also Jim and the ex-wife. But, uh, they, uh— but that whole group is, um, you know, the list of Marshall Goldsmith, Jim Bolt, Ken Blanchard, Bev Kaye, you know, all these, uh, amazing, uh, thought leaders. Um, or, you know, I got to know them through Jim and through acquiring EDAs, the consulting side of the business.

Was Howard Morgan part of that group?

I think so.

Yeah. He's such a good man. Yeah.

Build bridges. So this is a funny story if I could tell it really quick. So here's what, here's what Jim Bolt did to me. So we're going through this process. He stayed with me for a year and a half to teach me because we had leadership development and coaching. We did things like career and assessment centers and all that in my company before. But Jim had founded EDA, um, to be— to do strategic executive development. So top 5% of the companies designing things from anything from a 2-day program to a 2-year program or a corporate university, you know, doing the whole architecture, design, running it if necessary, and, um, and working with the large companies, Fortune 500s, at the top of the house. And so he mentored me for a year and a half to sort of get that up to the top. And so one of the first things he did— and I remember going through the acquisition where Jim Boldt and Mike Dolworth, who runs Executive Networks, which used to be together with EDA— Mike Dolworth, we're sitting there at the table, and Jim said Or Mike may have said it, you should take her to the Learning Network. And I see them sort of exchange glances and it's like wink wink. And so, um, I'm thinking, yes, I should go to the Learning Network. Good idea. So Jim takes me and I'm— at the time we were, we were, had just either, I think just completed the acquisition. So now I'm like really trying to get these 2 businesses together. I'm working like 100-hour weeks. I'm a, I'm a young mother. And on top of it, and Jim said, so we go to San Diego, we're going to go to the Learning Network. And I'm thinking, really asking myself, why am I here? Because I'm exhausted. And now I'm going to a meeting and Jim has told me, ah, it's just a bunch of consultants. And I'm thinking, why am I going to meet a bunch of consultants? And so anyway, we walk in the next day and the first person I see is Bill Bridges. who wrote Transitions. And then I see Bev Kaye, and then I see, uh, Ken Blanchard and Jim Kouzes and, you know, Marshall. And, you know, it goes on and on. And so, um, I, I was like, you could have told me. So I could have been— read their books. I could have been ready for this. So anyway, it was, it was interesting.

Oh, I love that story. And so how did you acquire them? I mean, tell me about the finances and all that stuff.

Well, what happened was, um, I, you know, about every 7 years or so I need to grow, keep growing, you know. Like, if I do the same thing for a while, I just have to keep growing. And so, um, I had ran my company before, after I left CBP, from 2001 to 2007. And I just, we'd grown nicely, but I either wanted to get acquired or do an acquisition. So that was my next growth because I didn't want to have a practice. I wanted to have a business and so, and be a leader. So, um, so that was what I, I hired 2 different business coaches at different times to teach me how to be a business person because I didn't really want to go back and get an MBA. I just wanted to learn while I was doing it.

I love this.

And so, um, so one of them was working with me at the time. He's Scott— his name's Scott Kozlowski. He has built multiple tech companies and sold them, and he also, um, is a well-known technology futurist speaker. But he was my coach at the time, and my business coach, and he was teaching me how to do acquisitions and all of this. So he helped me to, to, you know, through our connections and everything here about this particular one. And I was also in conversations with a company that was trying to acquire us at the same time. So it came down to within 2 days where we've had the offer on the table to get acquired, and we, and we had this opportunity to acquire EDA. And so what happened with EDA was, um, it used to be both, uh, this top-of-the-house consulting, you know, executive development and networks. So like HR networks and leadership development networks. And so Mike Dulworth had acquired the majority of the business when, when I bought it from Jim. And Mike wanted the networks, but he didn't want to keep the consulting. And so he spun that out. We got the brand and everything with it. And then he changed to Executive Networks. And we're friends today.

We're—

Mike's a great person. He runs great networks. And he's got some books out as well.

So when you say we acquired, who's we?

Well, it was— I mean, I'm majority owner, but, you know, my company is what I meant. We had a company.

I love this. The only thing I don't like about your story is you said we instead of I.

Typical, right?

We'll start to have a whole conversation about how women speak.

We should. I know. And so that's another thing we are— we were talking about before the show about how women, um, you know, need to help each other and everything. Well, in this network, which I'm sure we'll talk about in a minute, um, that I'm in, I did notice— and these are extremely high-level women— and I noticed that to a person They undersell themselves.

Yes, we all do. And I, I don't— I mean, I'm gonna say this lightly. I don't understand the psychology, but I understand the psychology. What I don't understand is how long is it going to take for us to get rid of that? Because I don't know, dragging around 32-ton weight tied to our bodies And we just need to stop it. And so I hope you don't mind that I just had to say something.

I don't mind.

You're a powerhouse.

Thank you for the feedback. Right.

I wanted listeners to be clear that it was you.

Thank you.

And not some guy— my husband will kill me— but not some guy pushing you along, you know?

Oh, no. I definitely didn't have someone pushing me. I might have had someone trying to hold me back a little bit.

But there you go. That's the flip side. Right.

But you know what, that gives us strength. Yeah, I was talking to another woman, um, recently, a good friend of mine, and her partner, you know, is not the best at supporting. And, you know, that's what I said to her, is it's making you stronger because, you know, resistance makes us stronger.

Yeah. And hopefully And it sounds like she has, because she knows you, she has a counterbalance to that.

Yes.

Because sometimes with women we have this, and I'm going to just call it out, weakness, right? And this is not in your case, clearly. Um, and we don't have a counterbalance, right? And we don't have the strength to move where we need to move to play chess, right? But, you know, that's okay if you don't have the wherewithal to play chess, but you do need a counterbalance at all times. And so—

I agree completely. And I just, you know, I just want to tell you, if you're a woman and you're out there and you're listening and you don't, you don't have the partner that supports you, I want you to know we're out here cheering you on. You've got energy and support coming to you from other women who are out here in the game, in the arena. You know, one of my favorite quotes is the Roosevelt man in the arena. Oh, you could change it to woman, but it's great just like it is. And so, um, you know, if you're out there in the arena and you're feeling beat up, just know we're cheering you on.

With this caveat, don't come to us to whine.

Don't come to us how?

To whine.

To whine, exactly.

Because I know for myself, I will support any woman who wants to move up in business, but if you want to whine, I am not your person.

I agree. In fact, when I, when I did my counseling psychology degree, I fell in love with reality therapy. Oh, which is like basically snap out of it. Like, we're not, we're not going to look backwards.

Oh, I love it.

We're going to go forward.

That's my philosophy. I have said to many people, my philosophy is to jump first, then figure out where I'm gonna land.

And if that is what I do all the time, and I consistently bite off more than I can chew.

Yeah, well, I'm not gonna admit to that. I will say I have hit some boulders doing it that way. But you know what, I always figure get up, dust yourself off, and go for the jump again, right?

Absolutely, absolutely. And, and we get more done because we jumped in in the middle of it, and you have to figure it out because you're there.

Absolutely, absolutely. And I want to talk about your book because this is so important. I have tried personally for years to get a board seat on a for-profit board. I've sat on non-for-profit boards. It is excruciatingly difficult.

It is.

And it shouldn't, because we have the wisdom. We have the wisdom for several reasons. One, just flat out being a woman. Two, because we have had to work our backsides off to be successful.

Right.

And company needs that kind of knowledge, that kind of wisdom, in order to keep and continue their success. We've had to fight much harder than men, and I'm not saying anything new. And so therefore, Company A, B, or Z, why not benefit from that knowledge? Instead of making us jump through hoops and hoops and hoops to share what we know. And you have written an amazing book. Can you hold it up?

I will. There it is. Comes out October 19th.

The Coaching: The Courage to Advance.

Yes.

And it takes women and men On a journey of understanding what 5 leaders needed to go through in order to reach that level. Hey, you know, and it's okay.

I am so sorry. I know what—

hey, the people that sign in for this show know life happens. My dog barks, my husband kisses me goodbye, the You know, the whole nine yards. Go answer your doorbell and come back.

Okay, I'm sorry, one second.

So isn't this exciting? We get to look at the real life of a successful woman, right? So exciting. You know, this happens because we do it all. We don't just stop and have time set aside just for business. We have to run a house, we have to take care of whatever is in the house. And we have to run a business. And so what better way to see how a power woman handles herself when the doorbell rings and she's in the middle of a call? It's great. Go for it.

Flexibility. That's another thing we should talk about.

Absolutely. So in your book, where you've examined women who have made it to the top, There are certain competencies that you recognize that they should have or we should have in striving for the top. Can you take us through those competencies without giving away too much of the book? Am I being—

Oh, yes. No, I'd love to. So I also want to say something about what you said a minute ago where you were talking about how we women, how we've had to work so hard to be where we are. You know, I read both Condoleezza Rice's books, several of her books, and then also Colin Powell's. And, um, one of the things that they both said is they grew up in the same neighborhood, and in their neighborhood there was a phrase that you have to be twice as good.

It's not only in the neighborhood, it's, it's the Black community.

Yes, exactly.

All people of color. Yeah.

Yes, I agree with that. And I think it's true for women in business.

Yes.

Oh, and so when you talked about how hard it is to get on a board, it's, it's true and it is hard. And what I'm seeing, you know, like I've had multiple people say to me that there are not enough qualified women. And I know, I know, makes me furious too. In fact, I went on a little rant about it when the whole SEC NASDAQ thing came out where the Republicans were trying to say— and I'm not anti-Republican, I'm center-right myself— I just was— they were saying that's not fair, there are not enough qualified women. I said that's not true because the women I know could run circles around the board members I know. And so, you know, you're right about that being really difficult. And we are— there are a lot of great women and they're ready. So here's what happened.

So wait a second. So I have to tell you, I'm so used to that phrase, it doesn't bother me in the way that it might shock people. Because people of color— Wells Fargo CEO, we can't find people of color for this level of leadership. You hear it We hear it over and over and over. What are you looking underneath, uh, you know, a book or something? You can't open the darn book.

No, it's, it's ridiculous. It's a cop-out. And that's what— so I was being interviewed by a reporter on the issue about the NASDAQ and, um, the Republican Party pushing back. And so the issue on the NASDAQ, for those of you who don't know, is that they have pushed that if you're going to be listed, you have to have a woman on your board, or you have to explain why you haven't. And also other diversity measures, not just women on boards. But, um, you— and so—

I'm sorry to interrupt. I get fired up. The problem is they pick one person and that every single NASDAQ company uses the same one person.

Yes. And they're all boarded up.

Yes.

So, um, So anyway, I was being interviewed, and when they, you know, brought up this whole issue about not enough qualified women, I— my first reaction was, that's a cop-out, which I asked them to not say. And then I was like, let's reword that. It's a misnomer, because, um, what they're saying is, I don't want to go look.

Yes.

Because they are out there. We have Amazing talent. And sometimes, you know, like, let's be creative. You know, let's say you're the CEO and you don't have a woman of color or a man of color that is next level ready to bump up. So go 2 levels down because they're probably there, you know, and pull them up. You know, there's— there have been companies who've gone 2 levels down and pulled up a CEO. So which was like, um, Legos did that at one point. Anyway, so, you know, we can, we can find high-level qualified people of diversity and get them to the top. And we really want to do that. We, you know, it's my personal mission to advance the state of women on boards and women in senior executive positions. I will do that for the rest of my life. I'm very passionate about it. And that's really where some of this book came from.

I am so your team. You know, I haven't taken the 2 programs that you talked about, but I want in on this. I'm making a public statement because I have been fighting this for years and years. And if it's not me, then I want another woman to take my place who may be younger, or I want to figure out how to seed talent. How to seed female talent for boards, period. Drop the mic.

Absolutely. Yes, we need the pipeline. I'm also on the business council for exponent.org, which is an organization that came out of a 20% project at Google. Rebecca Dopp is a high-level leader at Google, and she, in her 20% time, came up with Exponent, which is to exponentially advance the state for women across the globe in every area. But in business, really to feed that pipeline of women for senior executive positions and board seats. And so that's another way that we get to help as well. But to give you a little background on the book, you'd ask about the 5 competencies. So this is my 3rd book. The other 2— everything I do is about leadership. And in 2016, I was coaching CEOs in publicly traded companies. And I decided I really wanted to sit on the other side of the table. I wanted to sit on the corporate board and for one board. I don't want lots of boards. I want one corporate board. And so in the same day, I had 2 people send me this advertisement from Harvard Business School on this Women on Boards program. It's Succeeding as a Corporate Director. Women on Boards Succeeding as a Corporate Director. That's the name of it. And so, uh, it was their first class. They'd never had it before, uh, championed by Boris Groysberg and, um, I think Lynn Payne and some other professors at Harvard. And so they— this program was designed to help women, and I ended up getting accepted. You have to go through this qualification process, and that would say that you're qualified to be on a corporate board. And then there were 67 women from 17 countries, and I had never in my life been in a class of all women. Never. So it was, it was, it was awkward for me because I just, you know, it was just so different. But, you know, we had this small group. Well, in my small group were just amazing high-level women, you know, like a woman, her name's Muna. She's like one of the most powerful Saudi Arabians. And, uh, you know, not, not women total. And so there was her, there was the CEO of Cable One, there were, you know, the head of women's equality at UNESCO. I mean, these— the women in the small group even were incredible. And so I went through that class, then we tried to stay together. My, uh, friend and now co-author Lisa Pent tried to keep us together. She was on Wall Street And she was just having some phone calls every 2 weeks to help us to continue to educate ourselves, try to help each other. And after a year and a half, another class had gone through, and now I had this, this long list of women who were from these 2 classes. And I sat down and I made a sortable database in Excel, and because I wanted to go see people and I wanted all of us to be able to see each other when we were in different cities. So I could just sort. I'm going to DC. Who's in DC? Let's have a dinner. And when I finished that list, I thought, you know, if we tried, we could change the world because of the powerful positions that these women were in, the network that they likely had. And so I asked Lisa if she wanted to do a formal network, and she did. And we We did, and now we have 195 members from 23 countries. And we have this amazing culture of helping each other, which I'll be glad to talk about. But when I, when I was talking just before COVID-19 hit, I was talking to my publisher about a couple of book ideas. And one of them was to do a book about the women in this network because I said, you know, their stories are incredible. They're tough. They're gritty. They're beautiful. They're mothers. They've lost people. They've had children, all during their careers while we're trying to keep it together in front of everybody else. So I wanted to write a story about that. And so the book ended up— the book Courage to Advance, that's the one they wanted. And so we wrote that. There are 36 women from the network in the book. We also have a lot more on podcast, my Real Life Real Leaders podcast, which— I've invited you to be I can't wait to hear your story.

Thank you. I can't wait. I made a mistake. I said 5 women. It's 36 women.

There are 36 women. There are 5 competencies. I think you said it right. But the competencies are hard-to-teach competencies that are— they almost have to be caught. We are teaching them through storytelling. In the book, we cover courage, resiliency, adaptability, vulnerability, and sense-making. Like stopping, deep thinking about what just happened and trying to make sense of it and doing that with other people. That's how the stories are sorted. We do a little teaching at the beginning of each section, then we have the stories, and then we also have a book guide for anyone who has book club so that they can work through these competencies themselves. Then we have a really cool thing which our Chief Operations Officer, came up with. Her name is Kelly Adams, and she said, what if we put a place in the back of the book for women to write their stories in the back of the book guide? And so that's what we did, and we're hoping that people will send in their stories.

Well, I can't wait for you to speak to my Women's Power Pack group.

Oh, I look forward to that.

There are women in that— I will just tell you about I shouldn't brag about just one woman, but let me give you, because of time, one example of a woman who works with war victims.

Oh.

And she came out of war herself. She escaped twice, 2 different wars.

Wow.

And she works with people who are suffering as a result of being war trauma victims.

Right.

She also has her own podcast, and I am telling you, this woman is a powerhouse. You know, I'm using that term often, but I have to tell you, I'm so impressed by the women that I'm meeting. I really am, because, you know, I am older than all of you, and I never thought I'd see this, because in my generation, all I saw was women not Not— I'm going to emphasize that— not supporting other women.

That's right. I've seen a lot of that myself.

It was a catcall. And I'm so proud of how women have advanced, not only in their relationship to each other, but in moving up the ladder. And I, I get all choked up about it. So I put together a group of women who are just underneath the board level to support each other, but have made incredible contributions to the workspace. And another one is Janice Perkins, who manages, for the most part, an organization called Methods of Leaders. I was just interviewed for that. some really powerful interviews, including Marshall Goldsmith, as we talked about, and some of the other people. But this is just so— I'm going to tear up. I'm so proud of you and the book you've put together.

Thank you.

I can't wait for you to present the 5 competencies to my group because I know they all have it, But it's nice to read about it and to get a perspective from a researcher and from somebody who— people who have been through this.

Right, exactly. I, you know, that's the thing. There were some of the stories that, you know, I would do an interview, I would record it, and then I would go back and I would write the story. And there were times, there were at least 2 times for sure, maybe 3, where I can't remember if I On the third one, but there were two at the end when I finished writing. I just cried and cried, you know. It was like, how did they get through this? So, so difficult. And so the stories are told— I mean, they do tell how they get through it, but, you know, it's just like, I don't know if I could have, to be honest.

Yes.

You know, some of those stories were so painful, but some of them— I mean, they're all beautiful stories, Because these, these women have been extremely successful, but what they've been through on the way— and this is the, this is the point I wanted to say with the book— is, you know, if you're a leader, you're going through some crap behind the scenes, and you're not showing that usually to everyone else, but it's going on. And so what I don't want is for leaders to think that they're looking at other leaders thinking everybody's got it together but me.

Oh God, no.

Oh, no, no, not everyone has big challenges. And so I wanted to share some of those and how we got through them. And then at the end, we have this advice directly from each woman to the reader. And so, so it's pretty cool.

I can't wait for you to talk. Hey, Bonnie, while we have you, can you tell us about your other books that you've written?

I can, of course. So I have another one called Leading with Vision. And so our, all of our stuff really comes out of our Trends in Executive Development research that we do every 2 to 3 years since the early '80s. This was an EDA research practice that we continued, and we rely on it. So we go out to leading organizations and we survey them and we get their input verbally, and then we come back and we pull all of that information together from hundreds, thousands of companies. And we say, OK, here's a benchmark report of, you know, like best practices in executive development. But also, we make sense of the trends. And we say, here's what's happening. Here's what we see of that. And I pull together people like Jim Kouzes, I mean, people on my advisory board, who— and Jim Boldt, you know, lots of others who can weigh in and say, yeah— David Peterson, for example, was Google. You know, these are people who weigh in and they say, you know, here's what I see. And then we all talk about what does that mean. And then we write about that and share that with whoever gets the research. And so, so in 2009, the research said we do not have leaders, enough leaders who can create a compelling vision and engage other people around it. And we also don't have enough hypos, that the hypos don't have it either.

Yeah.

So, so that's where the book came from. We were— we went and said, okay, well, who's doing visionary leadership really well? And we could not find any how-to training on how to do visionary leadership. And so we wrote a book, we built a class, you know, we, we put it together so that people can learn the how-to do visionary leadership. And then before that, my first book was Decades of Differences, which I co-authored with—

Your 2 guys, Jim and Uh, David and, uh, Jim have both been speakers at my ACEC conference.

Oh, wonderful. Yeah, they're both— I love them both. They're both very valuable members of my advisor— advisory board because they, uh, you know, they really give thought and insight and, you know, they're not casual about it. They, they really think and, and try to help the people out there.

And Jim is so kind. He really is so kind. He said to me after the conference, he said, this has been the best conference I've ever been to. And I said, why, Jim? And he said, people were not afraid to ask me questions and challenge me.

That's great.

What humility this man carries. Awesome.

He's great.

Hey, I want to ask you a question before you talk about your other books, and we'll, we'll have the time. You said that you do surveys, you go into companies and you get responses from them. How do you get a company to pay attention to your survey? How do you get them to answer? How do you get in the door?

Well, for one thing, you know, I really can't take a ton of credit for it because honestly, Jim Bolt had built a great brand and we are continuing the great brand. And so, you know, we EDA is known really across the world as this boutique that really is high-end, that has great research, great services for the top of the house. And so it's continuing that brand. And the— so people participate because it is a go-to. Like, I don't know of anyone else who does trends in executive development, just that top 5%, right? There's lots of leadership development, lots of the middle stuff, But for what we do, I don't know of anyone else who does a report like we do. And so we get companies who watch for it. In fact, I have companies reach out to us, when's the next one?

Hmm.

So we're able to get them to participate.

I love it. I love it. Because I often wonder that when I see— of course, I get research questionnaires from the Center for Creative Leadership. It's executive. And I thought, At one point, now everybody's doing a survey. I mean, you buy a dress at Macy's and they're sending you a survey. Please, you know, what's my reward for completing this, for taking the time? Zero.

Right.

Because most of the time they're not read because you don't see a change, right? So I wondered, how is it that you're able to get in and get responses from These companies. Yeah.

So that, that's how we do it. And we just, you know, we have a database. And of course, if they've participated before, they're more likely to participate again because as soon as they— we charge $150 for the research, it's on Amazon. But anyone who participates obviously gets the report for no charge. And we'll also be happy to have a call with them to talk about their own executive development and their own benchmarks.

Love it. I love it. Hey, uh, Miss Carter wrote in and she said, how does a woman speak up for herself to gain traction in her career when she's constantly being looked over?

Yeah, that's a great question. So, um, you know, there's multiple tactics. You know, it might help to know a little bit more about, you know, how you're being looked over. But, you know, one thing that helps is to network your way to a champion that will help, because it really does help. And, and this is one of the things I found about the book, because it's not just women that can help you, you know, other men can help you, and men do help you. So in the book, I would say every single woman, not only in the book, in the whole network that we have, has been discriminated against by men. And almost every single one of them have been championed by men.

Men.

And so men play such a great role.

So I have to give you applause for that. And in my race, we do that by going like this.

Yes, absolutely. I'm with you.

Yes, absolutely. Truest statement never made. Love it.

Yes. So, and that's one of the reasons, like, well, this book is about women, but I say right on there, this is for men too, because you can see, you know, um, you can, you can choose, you know, which one are you going to be? Are you going to be the champion that, that these women are looking up to and appreciating, or are you going to be the one that they say, that they're telling stories about saying, guess what this guy did to me, right?

You know, I, I'm going to tell you a story, and I hope that Miss Carter is still listening. Recently I was interviewed by Methods of Leaders, and I was going to send the interview to a potential client. I said, let me listen to it first. Didn't have a time. I didn't have time to do it. And it aired. And I sat here and I prayed. And I looked at it. And I, and I made my husband sit right next to me and listen to it also. And I shouldn't say made, I asked him.

Gotcha.

After it was over, I said, what do you think? And he said— and it was about diversity and inclusion, and he's this white Italian guy, and he said, darling, this is just so good. I'm so proud of you. And I looked at him and I said, yeah, I'm glad you're proud of me, darling, but I'm even prouder of myself. It's really good.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's, that's what we have to do. And we have to find the people that support us like that. But we put ourselves first. So yeah.

And go to the— yeah, one more thing I want to say about, you know, getting, getting attention, getting promoted is, so one, look for a champion that will help you. Um, 2, just try to get to the, the one next step up you know, just keep going up. Next level, next level. No matter how far you get, even if you get on the board, do not settle for that. Get in the chair positions. Chair a committee, chair the whole board. You know, don't stop. Get the power positions. And if you can't get it where you are, I recommend you leave and go to another company. And, you know, boomerangs are a thing, so you can sometimes go to another company and come back in at a higher level.

I was waiting for you to finish to add that in. 2 minds alike. Absolutely do not, especially now with the shortage, the war on talent.

Right. Great time to do it.

I'm absolutely the time to—

And sometimes it's not even intentional. Sometimes, you know, if you grow up in a company, they see you, it's sort of like your children. It's hard to see your children the way other people see them because first of all, they don't act the same with you, right? But it is hard to see them. And so if you're in a company and they're seeing you as a certain level and they can't see you in another way, if you go to another company, they won't have that unconscious bias.

It's the 2 analogies. If you have a photograph on your desk, of your child or family member that you love, you'll see it when you first put it there. Eventually you don't see that photograph. It's still there, right?

Right.

And so you stir up the waters, move the photograph around so that you continue to see it. You absolutely have to do that. You have to be— you know, here's the thing, you have to be your own champion first. Don't be afraid to brag. Don't become braggadocious, but don't be afraid to brag. And sometimes we just get so shy, especially women, about talking about our successes that we feed the line of, well, I don't even see that person. So go where you can be seen. seen and heard and make your mark. And then if you want to go back, that's fine, at a higher level, or continue your pattern of growth. Don't let not being seen hold you back, ever.

Absolutely. You know, you're reminding me of a story, a quick story. So we were in a group, my network members, we were in this group in Boston, and we had one of the top board recruiters in the country in the room, and he was the only person in the room who wasn't one of us. And so we, uh, we were pitching to each other, you know, like, I want to hear everybody's pitches so that I can tell my friends and they can tell their friend— they can tell their friends about me, I can tell my friends about them. We can really roll out our Rolodexes and help each other. And so we finished, you know, and then this person stood up and said, you know, I still don't know what most of you do. And he said, for example, and he calls out one of our members, and he said, you said you founded an asset management business and then you've been in other countries and now it's very successful. And he goes, how big is it? How much under assets under management did you have and how many countries? And she says, well, we're like $16 billion in 36 countries, or, you know, something like that. And he says, okay, start with that and I'll follow you out of the elevator. So, you know, it's like we're just not that good at telling— bragging on ourselves.

You know, one of my favorite shows on TV, Shark Tank.

Yes.

Because you learn to speak Up for yourself and for your company in a way that will attract attention.

Yes, that's true.

One of the things, it's something as simple as having a tagline. When you ask women particularly, what do you stand for? It's very hard for them to answer. Yes. And that's because we don't accept in ourselves the greatness that we stand for.

You're right. You're very— it's very true. And women have a really hard time bragging on themselves. Even, you know, even as a coach, you know, even where I've been telling people for 25 years, you know, here's how you do it. It's still hard for me. It's much easier for me to talk about you, CB, and how great you are than it is for me to talk about myself.

I can do that campaign.

Yeah, no, it's just, it's just easier. And that's, that is one way we can help each other as women. We can be really good at promoting other women and, you know, helping each other. That was something I felt was extremely important that we build into the culture of our network, is that we are 100% Committed to each other's success, and the really great thing is that we have become that. And you know, I hear women say how surprised and almost shocked and a little overwhelmed they are with the support from the other women. And and what's great about when you're in a group like this? So get first of all get in one, whether you're a man or a woman, get in a group that you have support because. It does a couple of things. One is, of course, we open our Rolodexes. That's big. But we also get on the phone with each other and just encourage each other sometimes. And even when we're not on the phone, it's knowing that I have this group behind me makes it somehow makes you be able to do more, just knowing they're there. And so, you know, it's, it's great to have a group like that.

But I want to follow up with something here. Sorry, guys. My allergies are off the charts. Today my eyes are itching, my nose is running. Be careful with the group you're in. Don't make assumptions that everybody's there to support you and this is the best group for you. Be willing to leave the group if it's not serving your need. This is really important for women to know. I know I was in a group of 5 men. The only woman, the only Black person. And I was getting ready to open, open my new company, and they said to me— so we each had to make a presentation, we each had to tell our story.

Mm-hmm.

And they said to me after, well, it's not clear Why you have this expertise.

How—

it's not clear what you would say to a reporter to attract their attention. And I said— and they said, and you need a business plan. We're not clear that you would be successful. These are all hidden bias statements. And you need to recognize it. And if you're brave enough, you need to call it out. Because sometimes people are not aware because this is hidden bias or unconscious bias. And sometimes they are. But you have to be strong enough to say, this is not the right group for me.

Yeah, that's a great point. And, you know, I've left a group that was that I actually enjoyed and was really supportive also, but it wasn't the right group for the right time. So there's 2 things. You do have to be in the right one for the support and recognize when there's bias. But also you could be in a really great group and just not be the right one for now. And we only have so much time.

I totally agree. I was in another group and it was a wonderful group of people, but their focus was not on what I needed it to be on. I needed to be purely focused on business. Yes, theirs was a combination of business and other, and I thought, I can't, I just can't, right?

Yeah.

But so you have to learn the art of exiting gracefully, the same as—

That's right, just like when you leave a company.

Yes, exactly. So I want to mention that to to our listeners, because oftentimes we get stuck and we think— and then we stop contributing, and then we go to the negative zone. And that's the worst thing that you could do for relationship building, right? Because even if this group is not the right group for you, they may know somebody who can support you. So be careful about that. Isabella writes in— I love it when you write in. She says, I missed the very beginning of the interview. You can see it on YouTube, LinkedIn Live. Just follow me on LinkedIn Live and you'll see it. You'll also be able to listen to it on iHeartRadio, Amazon, and Apple. So we've got you covered. Um, would you please discuss the notion about joining a not-for-profit board And how to be invited to join your first board and how to prepare.

Absolutely love that. So, you know, just as a stepping stone, nonprofit boards and corporate boards are different because a lot of nonprofit boards, you know, they're asking you to put in money, that's volunteer, but it still gives you some board experience. So I do recommend getting on a nonprofit board just for some board experience. And then taking programs like CB and I have both been members of National Association of Corporate Directors. We've both taken other board classes, like I took the one at Harvard, and I know you took another one as well. And so, you know, educate yourself. That's important. But it really is going to be about your network. And that's— this is the one thing that we're 100% sure of. You can talk to every recruiter, you can go through every class, but someone has to say, Hey, we should consider CB for this board, right? Or Bonnie, or, or whomever it is. Is it— did you say Isabella? What was her name?

Isabella Lundberg.

Isabella. So they might say, we need Isabella to be on our board, and here's why. We need— because here's what my work with boards is. I coach CEOs in the past. Uh, here's what happens. So we— the board says, hey, we have a seat coming up in May. that's going to open. Who knows someone who would be good for that board? And then they throw out some names, and then they say, okay, so-and-so, go to lunch with them, see if they might have an interest, and then, then we'll send them to the recruiter. That's how it works. So we need to be the one in the lunch conversation, not the one in the recruiter database. I mean, we need to be both, but, um, so you have to work your network. I say to, you know, once you get all your basics done, your education, your board bio, all of that. Start telling every single person that you know that you're interested in being on a board and make sure that you're board ready. Read your books, you know, be ready so that you know good governance.

And reading your books.

Yes, read the books. Absolutely.

Yes, for sure.

Definitely read the books. Yes. And so, you know, you're a book bunny. Yeah, this one. Read this book. And there's, um, there's another one, Finding Your Seat at the Boardroom Table. Um, that's a good one. And there are lots of other really great ones. But, you know, getting on that paid first paid corporate board seat is difficult. I've— I'm on my own private boards, but I've not yet joined these other corporate boards because I was so busy building the network and doing the book. I'm just really getting started myself on heavily pursuing that. And so now it's just, you know, it's sort of a numbers game. And I'll tell you something one of the women in our network did, which was great, and she got very disciplined. She said, I'm going to do 125 contacts in 125 days. And she did. And one of those ended up in being a board seat. It wasn't their board, but they referred her to a board, you know, so it eventually paid It actually paid off to a board seat.

Wow. Wow. That is amazing. You know what? How different is that than really trying to land a top position in a company? You really have to rely on your network, even a lower position these days.

That's right. Yeah, it's the same. I mean, I mean, you're applying for a position, a very important position, You have to have all the fruit on the tree, which I trust that you do. Then you have to use your network to get there. If there's anything that I've been surprised at, it's how difficult it is. Even still, even with all the push for women, still. Then we have people pushing back, which makes me furious. Like in California where they finally passed a policy, which I agree with, even though I'm center-right, I completely agree that we need policy, government policy around women on boards because it's not happening fast enough. And we still have people saying it's limiting, which is not true. And there's a lawsuit out of California by, by some men, um, that run a company out there that, um, is going probably all the way to Supreme Court over this.

It's so wrong that in so many cases— I'm not just talking about this case— where people who are not suffering from the effects take the position of suing? A legal decision to help mediate the issues. Well, it's ridiculous.

I mean, why? Why? Just add— if you don't want to get rid of somebody who's on your board, add. All you have to do is change the bylaws. You know, this is not some massive reconstruction of your whole company. We're just talking change your bylaws, add 2 people.

We're just saying add value. Come on.

It's, it's ridiculous. And, and value— and, and not just put people on there, value the contribution and the difference of views that they bring, because that's what makes us more diverse. There's plenty of statistics out there, there's plenty of research out there that it helps companies to have a more diverse board. And so, you know, there's, there's no excuse. And we're not stopping at 20%. We're going for 50%. And so— and we're not letting up.

And who's to say— this is terrible. This is the dark side. Because you're admitting women, who's to say that the people that are— the men that are sitting on your board won't resign because you're admitting women? And there you have your extra seats.

If you choose to leave because you've got an intelligent group of women joining the board, then Please do. I mean, I would say that would be a good thing for the company then.

Exactly. Exactly. And what's so sad is many of these companies are selling products to women. So if we went on strike and said— now, you know, I'm a little instigator, but if you— if we went on strike and said we are not buying products or services from any company that has a board that does not have at least one woman on their board. Can you imagine what the power we could bring?

Okay, first of all, we should do that. I mean, come on, we should do that. That is a great idea. And, and while I'm saying all of this, first of all, we really should do that. We should vote with our pocketbooks. Let's do it. Second, I don't want to— I don't— I want to balance that. Um, you know, there are so many men out there that are helping, like, like, uh, Paul Polman, who used to be the CEO of Unilever. He changed his board and his executive team within 6 years of being the CEO. He had 50/50. Now that is one of the biggest companies in the world, and if he can do it there, we can do it anywhere. So the CEO has so much to say about this.

And I'm not even saying 50/50. I'm going with one woman on every public board.

I mean, that's absolutely—

What's our hashtag?

I don't know. I don't, I don't know. Good question. We need some creativity from our listeners. Okay, listen, women hashtag vote with your pocketbook. I don't know.

Yes. Okay, whoever's listening in, send Bonnie and I suggestions for our hashtag because we have to do this. Let's stop this fooling around.

Absolutely. I mean, really, so many of these companies that have all men on their boards, their customers are— the majority buyers are women. You know, years ago I heard Tom Peters giving a talk about women and he said, you know, American women are the number one buying power in the world, followed by Japanese men at the time. I don't know what it is today, but—

Still women at the top. I walked into a store yesterday to get a flannel t-shirt for my husband, and they had some women's things, and I tried them on and they were all too small. And I said, where's the full-figured ones? And they said, we have trouble getting in clothes for women because we are like a hunting shop. And I said, and who buys the clothes for the men? Do you see my husband standing here? It's me. And I'm looking to see what I can get for myself. And she said, you're so right. We've been fighting this. I'm like, why? Because even our buying power—

We are— we have the buying power. And we also are the influencers. So even if we're not the one pulling the trigger, we're the ones that are often the influence on which, which, what is bought.

I so agree. All right, Bonnie, let's take it on.

All right, let's do it.

Okay. All right. So we are a minute over time, and I really don't want this conversation to end because I'm fired up now.

Well, it won't end. We will continue because this is an important conversation that we're having. You know, we must advance. The State of Women on Boards and in Senior Executive Positions.

Bonnie, I did not let you speak about the other 2 books. We spoke about 2 of your books. Can you quickly tell us about the other 2? I want to get that in.

Well, there's, there's only 3. So there's the, the Leading with Vision, the, the new book that's coming out, Courage to Advance. Please buy that one. If you could buy it before October 19th, that helps us a little bit. Well, all the numbers come through at one time. And then, um, then my first book was Decades of Differences, which I co-wrote with Ken Gronbach, a demographer, which was— it was a fascinating book to write because we took his, uh, understanding of population and population growth and we compared that with leadership. And we showed how there's a big gap in leadership coming, which is now here because of when we wrote it, which is that there's just a smaller number of Gen X. So we have a leadership gap right now because of that. And, um, we have it— well, we have a whole talent war out there going on right now. It's totally— everything's shaken up. But there is also a lack of leadership just because there's just fewer Gen Xers than there were Boomers. So we talk about the demography and about how to work with all the different generations.

Great. I'm reading at the same time, and Isabella, she stepped up to the plate. She's got a name for us, #WomenBuyingPower. Oh, I like it. I wrote it down. Isabella, reach out to us. And she said, thank you for excellent conversation. Let's do it. I am—

I love that.

I love that one, #WomenBuyingPower. To the point.

So we need the list of companies that do not have at least one woman on their boards, so then we can, we can vote.

Get that. How do we get that?

How do we get— no, I don't know. We need it. We need somebody. We need whistle— we need whistleblower.

No, I think that's public information. Okay, yes. Okay, uh, anybody who's listening, if you know of a public company that I would say—

or private, these large private companies— if they—

if you know, send us and we'll start the spreadsheet. Okay, let's do it. Hey guys, I was just not expecting this one today. This was one of my best interviews Ever. I've interviewed some really amazing people, but you know, none of them allowed me to be a true rebel. So—

I love this. Yes, we're gonna start something here.

I love it. Hey, you, you have to come back because I want to discuss this more. Okay, audience, what could I say? Listen, follow me on LinkedIn. I'm not sure if I'm here next Tuesday. But I think after that, I know I keep promising you, we will start every Tuesday again. The summer will be over. My gardening will be finished. Hey, my, my secret for today, you know, I always have to give you a secret. My tomatoes are like this. They are gigantic. And they're so good. I grew 3 different types of tomatoes this year that I have never grown before. One is called a zebra stripe. And it is literally— it starts off as green striped on the outside, then it becomes yellow. There's no red. And then it becomes yellow and green striped, and when you open it up, it's lime green. It is amazing. And then I grew a purple beefsteak heirloom tomato, and then a regular tomato. And I grew 2 kinds of cucumbers, a white cucumber and a regular green cucumber. I had it covered. Now it's time for me to take it all apart and wait for next year. But that means I'm back on the air regularly, and I can't wait to see you again. And don't forget, sometimes on Thursdays we're on, so be sure to follow me on LinkedIn to know when I'm coming back to bring you more brilliant conversation like Bonnie. Have a great, successful week, and I'll miss you until I see you again. Thank you. Bye now. Thank you, Bonnie.

Thank you. Really enjoyed being on the program.