Challenges of the C-Suite with Tricia Naddaff

Hi, Tricia, how are you?

I'm good, CB. It's, uh, it's raining here in Maine, um, but, uh, but it's a good day anyway. So yeah, I'm good, thanks. How are you?

Sounds like the name of a great book or a song.

You definitely don't want me to sing if you want to keep your viewers.

That makes two of us. Hey, Tricia, I'm so glad you joined us. Let me just welcome the audience. Hi, everybody. I'm so glad that you're joining us again this week. And if this is your first time, don't make it your last time. This is CB Bowman Live for Challenges of the C-Suite. And what we like to look at is what is going on in the minds and in the offices of the C-suite. So we're acting as voyeurs to see what's going on with some solutions. And today we are so honored to have Tricia Nadoff. Tricia is the president. I like to say CEO because she's a woman. Um, and, you know, it's an interactive term, you know. And, uh, she runs the whole thing, and she is so incredibly well respected by her staff that it's such a pleasure to know her and to call her a friend and a colleague. Management Research Group is up north in Massachusetts.

We're in Maine and Dublin, Ireland.

Maine and Dublin, Ireland. And they have incredible instruments if you are an executive coach to use in helping not just people in the C-suite, but other people understand more about how they show up in the universe. And I have been through a couple of her assessments, and I've been trained on a couple of them. And I like to say the last one she gave me resulted in my marriage.

I like to say that too.

Yeah, it was very eye-awakening. So I'm so glad to, uh, present Tricia. Tricia, tell us a little bit about yourself and your company, and let's rock.

Yes, let's rock. Thanks, Evie. Um, well, first, actually, uh, CB doesn't know I'm going to do this, but CB and I have been in each other's periphery for a long time, but we really started getting to know her. I started getting to know her, what, CB, 3, 4 years ago, really starting. And I have to tell you, if you've not had a chance to spend time with this woman, she is a woman you want to spend time with. But beware, she will convince you to do things you never ever thought you'd dare to do. And she'll just encourage you in a way that she just blasts people into the stratosphere. So Right back at you, CB. It is— we are on a journey together. And I am really grateful for it. So, yeah, so MRG, Management Research Group, I guess everybody does acronyms now. So MRG, we have been creators of assessments and doing research with that for almost 40 years. So a long time we've been in this work. And we live by a quote that's attributed to Aristotle: self-awareness is the beginning of all wisdom, right? So the idea that as one understands themselves better, we can make better decisions, we can participate in our lives and in our work in more constructive ways. So we have this idea of this opening up in the self-awareness space. We, we work in about 55 different countries now, so we get the benefit of all those different cultural lenses. Keeps us open-minded, keeps us asking questions, keeps us from getting too narrow-minded. Particularly in the space of leadership, there are so many mythologies about what a good leader is that when you're working with a diverse set of leaders, it keeps your mind open to the different pathways. It's good work intellectually, it's good work emotionally. I've been at MRG for 30 years. I am now, yes, CEO, president, but I'm also the majority owner at this point. So we have a great team. And we work, as you know, CB, with coaches and psychologists and development and selection practitioners in many different places. So it's good. It's a good time to come and have this conversation. So thank you for launching this conversation. It's important work to be contemplating what's happening in organizations and how do people at the most senior levels How do they think about what their role is and what their responsibility is? And how do they think about themselves as leaders and their own well-being? So it's a great time to be launching this. So thanks for the invitation.

So I have lots of questions. First of all, I am going to ask you our standard question, which is, what do you see as the top 3 challenges for people in the C-suite and what lessons are learned from that, but on a research basis. The other thing is, I remember in one of our marathon conversations, you mentioned to me that you were doing work in Africa.

Mm-hmm.

And I'd love to know more about that because I know you said all over the world, and I hate to say it, but a lot of times people don't think of Africa as being part of the, you know, of the world that we think of in terms of Europe, Latin America, and Australia and Africa are becoming more and more used in our vocabulary. So I'd love to know more about what's going on there.

It's a great question. I don't claim to be an expert on Africa or to speak from the African perspective. But the work that we're doing that is beginning to have us learn more is, as you know, we do a lot of work in the humanitarian sector. And in big humanitarian organizations, they are working hard to take care of people who are displaced and are living the life of the refugee. They are working in places of armed conflict, and they are trying to support the humanitarian needs of food and shelter and medication and and watching out for areas of abuse and violence. And so that's happening in many places in the world. And I will tell you, traditionally, leadership in those places, in those organizations, have come from a Western framework, right? So North America, Australia, Western Europe. But what those organizations are really evolving to understand is It's so important to cultivate leadership in a much more comprehensive way. More leaders from the Middle East, more leaders from South America, more leaders from Asian countries, more leaders from African countries. The idea of really understanding the culture that these people are in and/or the culture that they've come from, around things like spiritual practices, the role of the family, the role of gender, all those influences. Specifically, as I have coached some leaders from African countries, it's that one of the things that really strikes you is the responsibility of family and what extended family, not just as we often think about in the Western world, nuclear family, but the responsibility for family. So when I think of family responsibility and I come from that philosophy, by the way, we also see— I've also seen this in the Middle East as well. It's aunts, uncles, cousins, second cousins, and the level of responsibility for care. You think about it, particularly in the humanitarian sector, becomes hugely significant in terms of that felt sense of responsibility. I think there's a lot for us to learn in that space. As you know, developing coaches in places in the world where it's not as common is important so that we can help leaders grow in a way that's very respectful of their culture, but also maybe can teach some aspects of leadership that are developed in other places that may have resonance for those places. But still, right, a lot, a lot to learn, a lot to learn.

So what I'm hearing and I'm beginning to see is, yes, in Africa and Australia and other countries that we don't think of top of mind, their leadership models have come from the Western side. But it sounds like, especially in this new world, That there's an opportunity for us to learn from them a lot.

Absolutely.

Caring for the nuclear family, looking at employees as a quote-unquote nuclear family, we can learn a lot about the care and support that we can give employees as well as family from them.

Absolutely. Well, CB, let's face it. As we look at leadership in the Western world, both organizationally and politically, there's room for improvement.

Oh, yes.

Just leave it at that.

Let's go there.

We don't have the cornerstone on just totally effective leadership. So yes. Yeah.

What do you think is probably the biggest learn that we can obtain from these sectors of the world?

You know, I'm going to speak— share something that a coach that you and I know from Zambia shared with me. She shared with me as we were talking about— so I'm like you, I'm in the United States, and we happen to be at a point in time in our country where there's a great deal of division. She shared when the new president a long time, a while ago came on, he understood that there were at the time 72 separate tribes.

Wait, which new president? The United States?

In Zambia. In Zambia. I won't remember his name. She said at the time he realized the challenge was There were 72 separate tribes at the time, and each tribe had its own leader. And how was he going to create unity in that space? And so she said what he did was he established this framework of we are human beings first. So the universal uniting of us, we are human beings first. We are Zambians second, and we belong to our tribe third. And she said, of course, she said it was a way of creating a unifying framework from a leadership perspective. I thought that was extraordinarily powerful to really— and to speak that over and over again so that it gets into the psyche of the population, right? And then to live by that, right? To demonstrate we are humans first, we are Zambians second, we belong to our tribes third. So, and I imagine you could go further, right? Then we are a part of our family, then I am an individual, right? How we architect that, our identity within the context of that system. I thought that was extremely powerful.

Yeah. And you know what? It's interesting because I think that leaders, as we have known them in the past— and this is a combination of ego, fear, and the law, I'm going to identify those areas— have been afraid to show that kind of compassion and recognition for the level that the person is within their entire space.

Yeah.

You know, so understanding that it's family first, um, it could be, or self first, family first, and then working for the company. A lot have flipped that to it's the company first. And I think as a result of COVID and I don't know if it's a result of COVID or where we are in this new normal, or if it's just the growth of Gen X. We're seeing a shift in that order of things.

Yes, yes. Well, you know, it's an interesting thing because you, you and I are old enough to remember—

I am not.

When you couldn't bring your whole self to work, right?

Yes.

Talk about, you know, your private life, you know, whatever was happening there was happening there. You walked in the door and you were the work person, right? And that's changed over time, certainly with COVID Now we're all in each other's homes and in a very personal way.

Absolutely.

So I think that shift has been important, right, that we realize we are full human beings coming into the workspace. It makes it more complicated at one level, but it's more— I think you get more of the whole person and you get more of the whole brain, which is is actually critical. And then I think that we also are much more attentive to— some people call it self-care, some people call it centering practices. The more we know about neuroscience, the more we understand how we can attend to our own well-being and how that benefits not only us, but the systems we live in, our relationship systems, our family systems, our work systems, our societal systems. So, I think that self-identity focus evolution is important. But of course, now we're evolving much more too on the organizational side, right? Organizational culture. Over the last 10 years, the conversation about culture and purpose and who are we collectively as a citizen in the communities we find ourselves. So in one way, I feel like both the thinking about the individual and the thinking about the organization has really evolved, I think, which is very important because the world has become more complex. And we were in artificially simplistic models of people and organizations following rigid rules controlled by a Kind of a singular lens of how we viewed people and organizations.

Yep. You know, it's going to be interesting to see what effects it has on the law, because I think that the legal system has contributed to that single lens view of employee. I mean, you can't ask— you know, it's interesting because, well, if we're ill, We want people to care.

Mm-hmm.

And yet now the law basically says you can't ask details.

Mm-hmm.

If somebody takes the day off. So it's almost— I remember having this conversation with the manager of Costco in New Jersey, and one of their employees had been out for some time. And I mean, I was in Costco every single week. It was within walking distance, maybe more than that, I won't admit to. But let's just say when I left New Jersey Costco, they gave me a gift certificate to use in my new Costco in Colorado, right? But going back to point, I said to this person, how is that? How's your employee doing? Because I knew both of them. And he said, you know, CB, I'd love to know, but I can't ask. And I said, what do you mean you can't ask? And he said, well, one, she's a woman. And two, I can't pry into personal issues. Now along comes COVID-19, and you have many places that have said, have you had a fever? Have you been with anybody who's been with yada yada? Or need to take your temperature? This is your space now. Yes, they must ask these questions. Legally, determine whether or not you should enter the premise. That's one thing. Second thing, you've got Zoom.

Mm-hmm.

And Zoom in the home. So you see a guitar in the background, you see a 4-legged creature running by, you see a husband in their shorts, and you— where do you go from that? You can't say anything. I was at the beautician a couple of weeks ago, and I got a call after saying, one of our clients was tested positive on the day you were there for COVID-19. I was freaked out.

Mm-hmm.

And I said, who, what, where, what time were they there? And they said, we can't tell you anything. And I said, hold it. What do you mean you can't tell me? I have a, I have a dentist appointment coming up. They're going to ask me the standard COVID-19 questions. I won't be able to answer them. And they said, we can't, HIPAA laws. And I'm like, this is a total clash. Left hand, right hand, right?

Yeah.

And so finally, my solution was, here's my doctor's telephone number. I don't need to know anything. Call and let them know if— ask them if I could come in under the circumstance. And then they came back to me and they said the person came in after you left.

But it is, it's, you know, that this whole, uh, you know, at a bigger level, it is, you know, the rights of the individual, the rights of other individuals, the rights of the system. You know, this is— it's a constant, right? There's no easy answer, right, as we look at it. And again, the world just keeps getting more complex. So I don't think the answers are going to get any easier.

No, especially since this is the first time we've not only experienced one pandemic, but as you and I know, in the business world, we're talking about 5 pandemics that have happened at once in the United States.

Yes.

And so we don't know which way to turn. Yes.

Yes.

Okay. So now that that's out of us, people are going to say, who are watching, when is she going to get to the point? What are the challenges? Well, we're here now. Tricia, what do you see are the top 3 challenges that those who are in the C-suite face? Now, and do you have any thoughts about solutions?

Yes, thank you. That's a good— it's a good question. And of course, I've been pondering this, right, about what we know from our research and what we know from experience and what we know about the evolution of this level of the organization over 4 decades, right? It hasn't been the same. So what I would say, there are 3 things that I would— I guess I'm going to start from a little bit from a solution perspective first and then tell you why I think it's important. I think the first thing that's absolutely critical now is that leaders at the C-suite really need to work to increase their insight. And I'm going to split that into 2. They really need to increase their self-insight, right? So that's the first kind of insight. And they need to understand Who am I? What do I believe in? Why do I do the things that I do? Why do I react to the world the way I react to the world? That inner knowing. The second part of self-insight is, how am I perceived? We need C-suite leaders to have a level of courage. We used to call it the emperor without any clothes. Now we talk about it from the other perspective. Do you have the ability to speak truth to power? But we need C-suite leaders, right? That self-awareness is, how am I perceived? The second big category under that increased insight is, though, insight into others. You know, CB, that we do a lot of work in the leadership space. And one of the things we help organizations do is look at their leadership culture. And we do that through an assessment process. But then we look at what's the perception of leadership culture in different parts of the organization. And I can tell you almost always, the C-suite is the outlier in terms of their view of the leadership culture within their own organization. They see it in a way that the rest of the organization doesn't see it. Well, why is that? Well, for one reason, their vantage point, right? They're at the top of the organization and they see things from that vantage point. They often can see more broadly what's happening in the context of the organization. But they also can see, often have a vantage point outside outside the organization. So their view is different. They also, though, have more power and therefore more agency. So they see the organizational culture through the lens of their own power and agency position versus if you're at lower levels of the organization, you don't have the same vantage point and you don't have the same power. So the C-suite has the responsibility to see the organization from other perspectives, and particularly from perspectives lower than they are in the organization. So that's the first, right? You have to increase—

I just want to challenge one thing. Did I hear you say that the C-suite can see things from the vantage point of lower in the organization?

They don't. I'm saying they don't. That's the insight they have to improve, right? They have to have— and now let's Be clear, you and I know, right? Some do it very well. They have lunchtime conversations. They go on the floor and talk to people. And they do it in a way where they really encourage openness and transparency versus some others who go do the process of lunch and learn or, you know, and all of their language, both verbal and nonverbal, is I don't really want to hear that.

Yes.

So the courage to actually go down and see through the eyes of people who are at other levels of the organization. What does it feel like to be here? What are you inspired to do, not do? What do the limitations feel like? It's really interesting. We worked with an organization, 18,000 employees, And when we looked at the motivational patterns of the C-suite, they were creative and they didn't need a lot of stability. They didn't need a lot of structure. And this organization was in a sector where there was a lot of change. And so, this C-suite group pushed change down the organization at a rapid pace. When you look at the motivational profile of leaders at other levels of the organization, they needed a lot more stability, they needed a lot more structure, they were less motivated by change and creativity. And so it landed on rock, right? So, so you need to be able to get down there, and you need to understand, and you need to be open-minded, and you need to be able to hold the complexity of that. So that's one, that whole insight piece.

Oh, I had that as 2 already.

Insight in 2 places.

All right. Yeah, know self and see through the eyes of others.

All right. So then the third thing I would say is, we've been studying leadership over 4 decades now. And it has gotten increasingly complex, what we expect of leaders, right? It used to be just make these direct reports get their work done. Now, global and digital and flexibility and agility and It's become too broad a role for one individual to master. And so we really have to dismantle this myth of the heroic leader, that there's one person who can have mastery across this. And not only does common sense tell us that this is true, but neuroscience also tells us it's true, that there are different parts of the brain that influence different aspects of leadership. And we all have biases where one part— we have preferences for one part of that equation versus another. So, C-suite leaders really need to start, model, and promote the notion of shared leadership, right? The idea from a very basic level of just having thinking partners to distributing leadership across a group of people based on talent and capability and motivation. We have to stop thinking that a single individual can master across all the things we ask of leaders now. So the idea of these very senior leaders really modeling but also sharing the expectations across the organization that this is how we do leadership here. We do shared leadership. I'm going to say one more thing, CB. For all of us in leadership roles, it was complex before everybody got sent back home in March. And now this pandemic has just ratcheted the complication up. But there's a great 5,000-year-old saying, you can't serve from an empty vessel.

Right.

Right. And so, the thing that I think that all leaders need to do, but the more complexity you have in your life and in the leadership role, the more critical it is, is that leaders need to be really focused on centering and grounding practices for themselves. Right? The more grounded they are, the more effective they can be. The more off-center they are, the more havoc they're going to create. And there are so many different kinds of grounding and centering practices. We're hearing a lot about meditation. Some people use prayer. Some people use journaling or some form of writing. For some people, it's being in nature. For some people, it's exercise. It is the thing that clears your mind and brings you back to your centered place. That needs to be practiced. And quite frankly, all the evidence would say it needs to be practiced on a daily basis. for it to really matter. You know, one of the unique things about the C-level as a level of leadership is the domino effect. You know, if you've got a first-line leader who is not centered, who's not grounded, who's kind of all over the place, that's not great for that leader's peers and that leader's direct reports. But it's more isolated. Right? If you've got somebody at the C-level who's not grounded, who is not centered, and who is causing havoc, the domino effect of that is significant.

Right?

It's also modeling that that's an okay way to lead.

Right?

And not focused, not in control of emotions, not able to see things from other people's perspectives. Those are all hallmarks of a leader who's not grounded and centered. So what happens if that's what we see at the top? We become protective of ourselves. And it also sends either consciously or unconsciously the signal that that's okay.

But Patricia, isn't that asking us to be superhumans? I mean, to say that, you know, if something happens to you within your space, that you can't show any emotions because you need to be grounded and centered to lead an organization. That— I mean, I mean, it almost says to me, this is why, because they're mostly men leaders at the top, why we— they end up having more heart attacks.

Yeah. Yeah.

All of this inside. And yeah, this exercise and praying and journaling or whatever your choice is. I know for myself, As a leader, if I stop— and this is really bad, so please, audience, do not do what I do.

Here it comes.

But if I stop to breathe, to exercise, it's like, oh my God, I've wasted time. I've got to get this done. And the pressure builds more.

But CB, there is a difference between being frustrated And saying, you know, I'm really frustrated we haven't made progress on this, and ripping somebody's head off, right? Or throwing something, right? So it's not don't show anything, but how do you be authentic and share what's going on, but in a way that respects the people around you? And absolutely, you know, CB, we're all gonna mess up. But another thing about eventually coming back to center is, oh my gosh, I have to apologize.

Yes.

It's very powerful when a senior leader says, you know what? I blew it. I tried to do the work to hold myself accountable, not to put you at risk or put you in a dangerous situation or make you feel like you can't say what you want to say or not make room for other people's mistakes. And I blew it yesterday at that meeting. I'm going to hold myself more accountable. So you're right. We're human. And there's enough pressure on leaders to not have the be perfect pressure. But there is responsibility that comes with the privilege of power. And that is to do the psychological work So that you can express your emotions and your thoughts in a way that doesn't shut things down, that doesn't brutalize somebody else, right?

Yeah, yeah, I do hear what you're saying. And boy, you know what, the chat's blowing up over this conversation. So I want to say something, and then I want to read some of the comments. You know, it's almost counter intelligent, because women are raised to express emotion.

Mm-hmm.

Men are not. So men have the heart attacks, but then we are considered less of a person. Now what we're seeing is that we're encouraging men to forget this persona that they were raised with and start to express emotion. But then where's the cutoff point between expressing that emotion and upsetting people around you?

Yes.

And it's very hard in the moment. I mean, I think about people that— and this actually happened to a man who was going through a divorce, and he was so torn up about it that he could not function, and he had no one to express it to because he's not supposed to express it. Um, so Dorothy is saying effective leadership is grounded in emotional intelligence. I love it. Thank you, Dorothy. Uh, Priscilla is saying we work with so many people from different cultures. I personally have lived, worked, or played in over 65 countries. Well, Priscilla is a member of the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches, and it's kind of like, where in the world is Priscilla when you're talking to her? He says, we don't lean on each other and ask for support of others who have so much to offer. Together our world can prosper. It doesn't have to be competitive all the time. Good point. Um, no, no grounding does not mean emotionally disconnected. It means they are integrated into mind, heart, and soul. That's from Dorothy. Some really great points there.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And CB, I would just also say a couple of things relative to your gender observation. One, idiot, that's cultural. I'm half Lebanese. So I would say that my father's family was Lebanese and there was more emotional expression in that family. But my mom, was, is what we would call in the Northeast, right, a Yankee family, right? And she, you know, their family came over, I think we tracked it back to like 1563, more reserved. So there are cultural differences.

Ah, yes.

In how gender plays out in terms of emotion. The other thing I would say is, there are, there's also, if you look at the broader population, not every individual, but a broader population, there are a suite of emotions that women are socialized to express. Anger is not one of them.

Yes, that's a good point.

And there are a suite of emotions that men are entitled to express. Anger is one of them, right? So this is, you know, I'd love— there's a great book by Mark Brackett called Permission to Feel. It's a phenomenal book. And was it Dorothy who mentioned the emotional intelligence? It's the best for me of what I've read in the emotional intelligence space. It's the best book that really gets at what— where does this permission to feel come from and how do we learn to work with it? Not only our emotions, but the emotions of others.

What was the author again?

Mark Brackett. He is the head of the Emotional Intelligence Center at Yale University. Great book.

And we have a comment from a gentleman, Mark Friedman. Men who have a higher emotional intelligence can express their feelings without necessarily acting out on them. Gosh, I wish Mark was part of this conversation because I'd love to know what he's thinking with that. Sounds fabulous. And so, Mark, if you have a chance, send us a little bit more on what you're thinking there. Um, meantime, I want to go back to a discussion about seeing through the eyes of others. Now, of course, the easiest way to do this is to have a coach give a person an MRG assessment, because then that tells you how you are presenting yourself. But for lack of having that ability to have a coach such as myself be certified and can deliver that information, how can people in general and executives see through the eyes of others what is— how they show up?

You know, it's interesting, CB. One of the greatest challenges I see across organizations is not having a culture of courageous and compassionate feedback.

Hmm.

I either witness cultures where there's compassion without courage and we become overly polite and overly nice. And we don't actually say, hey, that's not helpful when you do that. I need to ask for something different. Or we have cultures that have courage without compassion. And traveling very far down that road ends up in meanness or aggression or hostility. So to develop a practice of courageous and compassionate feedback and to ask for courageous and compassionate feedback. When we learn about that, and a couple of ways to do that are One of the best ways is what we all know of as feedforward, right? What would you like me to do differently moving forward? So we don't have to unpack. He said, she said, I thought, you did, why not? You know, I'm asking forward. So, you know, CB, what, what can I— what would you like me to keep doing? And what could I do differently that would help you be more successful and would help in keep growing our relationship?

Right.

The invitation, right? The invitation and the receptivity to the feedback. CB says, Tricia, you could talk a little bit less and listen a little bit more and interrupt me a little bit less. And even if I don't love hearing that, I breathe through it. I breathe through it, right? So that again, if I want— if you're my direct report or you're my direct report's direct reports, or you're sitting on the floor of the manufacturing facility and I'm the head of manufacturing, It's on me, CB, to make it safe for you to give me feedback. It's— we say, say truth to power, but power has the power, right? So it's actually, I think, the responsibility of the more senior person to ask for the feedback and to be gracious in receiving it. And then to eventually— not even, you know, you can say thank you in the moment, But it's very helpful to circle back and say, I've really thought about that and I want to thank you again. And I'm taking these 2 actions as a result of that. So I appreciate that. Maybe you don't take the whole thing in. But it builds this culture and this expectation. So it's not an easy thing to do. We're all vulnerable. And I can tell you in coaching, leaders at the C-suite, there's plenty of vulnerability at that level. Imposter syndrome, am I good enough? Oh, this is really complicated. Can I really be effective? Will we meet our goals? There's a lot of vulnerability at that space. It's why a lot of leaders—

I also want to— I see, sorry, Mark responded. I also want to invite people to take a risk. I knew somebody, and this is recent, as recent as yesterday, who I didn't feel like I was being received well by that person. And I picked up the phone and said, you know, I would like to optimize our relationship. Now, I know it's hard to believe that anybody would not receive me well.

Yeah, they were having a bad day, CB.

Several bad days. But I think that sometimes it requires that kind of forward thinking, that kind of courage to say to somebody, you know, let's develop a better relationship. What is it that you'd like to see from me that I could do to optimize our relationship? And Be prepared— this part I wasn't prepared for, I didn't have you coach me— for the answer to be, what do you mean? What have I done that led you to believe that?

Well, interesting.

And I thought, well, now I had to think quick, um, because I could have sent out a list of things.

Yeah.

And then I thought, then the conversation would have not gone anyplace. Other than defensive.

Yeah.

And so instead, I said, you know, it's really basically a feeling that I have. And so I want to talk to you about that. I want to see where you're coming from, and maybe talk about where I'm coming from. And, and the person's response was, well, you know what, I actually don't know anything about you.

Very interesting. Yes.

And I said, Let me correct that now. As you see that military hat above my head. Yeah. But it— but the bottom line is it started to develop into a very interesting conversation. And I was glad that I made the call.

Yes.

And I was glad for 2 reasons. One, to let the person know that I have an interest in developing a stronger relationship, and also to let the person know how I'm perceiving them.

Yeah, yeah.

Because I had heard that there were other people that perceived this person the same way. So there was a disconnect between this person's presence and how this person was being perceived. And the person was trying to do a lot of good work, but with that disconnect It was falling shy of the mark. So I think that it is a two-way street in asking for feedback and being willing to give feedback, especially when you think that there are troubled waters.

Yeah. And, you know, and I think the thing that that also illustrates, CB, your example illustrates, is sooner rather than later, right? Because, man, we can work ourselves into quite a self-justifying frenzy if it goes too long. And then, the ask or the engagement doesn't actually match the impetus.

Yes.

Right? So, that's— and I tell people who are in more senior positions all the time, you have to understand how the brain interprets power, right? The brain, as we know, right? Because neuroscience has become mainstream, thank goodness. And we're getting a little bit more insight. is that our brains are very threat sensitive. And when we are in the presence of somebody who has more power than we have, automatically the brain becomes even more threat sensitive.

Mm-hmm.

So we need to understand that that is the dynamic. And the more overwhelmed, the more complex, the more stressed, the more busy people are, the more automatic that threat sensitivity is. So here is somebody who is the VP of whatever thinking, I'm just Jane, right? I'm just Jane and I have, I don't really have a lot of power. I'm just me. But you have to think about it from the other person's perspective. You have to really understand that. So I think that doing it early, understanding that if you're talking to somebody who has less power than you have, they are going to be sensitive to threats. And that you have to be thoughtful and careful in the way that you invite the conversation.

Thank you. I want to go— Mark has given us some more information. If we remember, his last comment said men who have a higher emotional intelligence can express their feelings without— whoops, it just jumped— without necessarily acting out on them. And then he comes back and he says, Simply, when a person, man or woman, is in touch with their feelings, sensitive to what they are experiencing, they can articulate that feeling without acting out on it. That's interesting. That is, if they are angry, they can acknowledge their anger without yelling and screaming and putting others down. That is so true. And then to the more recent comment, he says, right, but did It in any way, but you, but you did, but you did it in a way that accepted responsibility for your own feelings without saying to the person, you made me feel this way. So you didn't raise their defensiveness and the conversation could proceed and get richer. Thank you, Mark. I appreciate that.

Mark's giving us a primer on emotional intelligence, right?

Yeah.

Really, you know, the ability to recognize your own emotions, to be able to appropriately regulate and appropriately express, to be able to read somebody else's emotions, and to be able to appropriately respond, right? So it's a— and it's a lot easier to do if you're centered. You know, it's, you know, I just share this with the audience because this is such a great course. I'm taking a positive neuroplasticity course with Rick Hanson. He wrote Buddha's Brain. He wrote Hardwiring Happiness. It's a phenomenal course. And he was talking about how stress really, how it influences our brain in many ways. And relative to this conversation, We all know about the stress hormone cortisol, right? It's, again, it's in our regular nomenclature now. So he was saying stress, the cortisol hormone increases the sensitivity of the amygdala. So that's primarily the emotional center of the brain. So it makes us more emotional, right? Cortisol increases whether it's anger or fear or anxiety or irritation or It increases that, what the kind of the amygdala impact. The other thing that it does though is it inhibits what another part of the brain called the hippocampus. Well, what does the hippocampus do? Well, one of the things it does is it helps us keep things in perspective.

Hmm.

So here, stress, cortisol, increasing the sensitivity of the amygdala, decreasing the sensitivity of the part of the brain that goes, wait a minute, Is this really that big a deal? Are we really keeping things in perspective? Are we really processing this in a way that's helpful? Yeah, that brain is, you know, that part of it. So it's just this cycle of how stressful situations, being overwhelmed, being uncertain, being in a pandemic, being in an election cycle, you know, having a deadline due and you're behind. things just create this cycle. And it, again, if I have a centering practice, I can reset my brain. If I don't, I'm off on this cortisol-hijacked brain environment. And if I have power, which the C-suite does, the domino effect that my unregulated brain can cause is really serious, right? You can't serve from an empty vessel. You gotta start from that space, right?

I love it. I love it. So I also want to go back. Let's see how much more time we have left. We have about 15, 16 minutes left. Don't, don't take that to the bank because as you can see, my dyslexia is acting up today when I couldn't read Mark's statements.

But it's one of the things that makes you so creative, CB. So thank you. Let's bless it.

Yeah. Okay. I wish I was a little bit less creative at times. I want to go back to something you said about the hero leader and how we need to move from that to share responsibilities, share leadership. It's a bit confusing because you think as a leader, as a CEO, you have the CFO, you have the Chief Human Resource Officer, now you have the Chief Technology Officer and everything under the sun. Isn't that shared leadership, or do you mean another version of shared leadership on top of that?

That's a great Great question, CB. So there's certainly functional shared leadership, right? You own this function, you own this function, you own this function. But then there are the aspects of leadership— well, we just were talking about it, right? You happen to be very creative, right? So you can have a CEO who's very creative, and that's in her wheelhouse. And she—

I like how you just said her wheelhouse.

OK. Well, here we are. Might as well take advantage of it, right? And she is, she's creative, she's visionary, she's very persuasive. So she can get people on side. But she has a tendency to have shiny object syndrome. And she doesn't, you know, she gets attracted to this and attracted to that and attracted to this. She doesn't stay as focused as would be helpful for the organization. She sometimes talks too much. She sometimes doesn't— isn't structured enough in building the plan, right? So we see that she brings a lot to the table and a lot that happens to be a good match for the CEO. But we also see shadow sides. We also see things that she has or doesn't have that can make it more challenging for the C-suite team to be effective, make it even more challenging for the organization to be effective. So what does she do? Well, in the idea of the, the heroine as leader, we leave her to her own devices. I guess this is just the way it's going to be. In the framework of shared leadership, she recognizes, I need thinking partners. I need a respected Thinking Partner who is more organized than I am, who requires more stability than I do, who can be the truth teller of, you know, CEO, the organization can't take another project until we finish a couple more, right? We have— there's another Thinking Partner who would say, Let me— you're going to review my speech before I go and do it because I get all excited about the next new thing and I can convince you to do anything. And they're like, but you're not addressing their fears. But you're not, you know. So we recognize that in terms of the leader's own thinking. Then we could also recognize, well, listen, in the state of the state, it's not just the CEO who's going to speak. Maybe we let the CFO speak and the CHRO speak because they come from a different voice and we model we're leading together. So there's also that piece. So there's all different ways to think about what do I bring to the leadership role. And I tell people all the time, think about leadership as all of the things that need to happen in order for an organization, a department, a team to be successful? And then think of the leader separately, right? What aspect does this leader contribute to all of those things that need to happen in the leadership realm? And how do we then— and then what else needs to get covered and who can do that? And when we think about that, we also start to dismantle this emperor without any clothes, right? Because that whole structure is we have to pretend that somebody is perfect.

Oh God, yes. Yeah.

So if we can dismantle that and, and not make it a big thing— if I say to you, CB, you know, I'm, I, I'm getting stuck in my own thinking, I need some of your creative energy because you think farther out of the box than I do. You know, co-think with me about this, CB. And it's not— I'm not embarrassed. I'm not ashamed. I'm not thinking I should be able to do this on my own, right? If I was really a good leader, I'd be able to do it on my own. No, I think that what, what is good is that I cultivate thinking partners and peer mentors, and I share leadership within my team. And I cultivate different aspects of leadership from my stakeholders, right? And then we get leadership covered, but I'm not pretending I'm covering it all myself.

That makes sense. It absolutely makes sense. And I, I've kind of practiced this since I was a kid, and I read this great book about— and I don't remember the title of it— developing your own personal board of directors.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, it's just keeping people around you that you trust that can guide you when you go off the tracks, and even helping you before you go off the tracks. And, and I want to say to— I see Mark has recommended a book, which let me come back to. I think that leaders, because they're concerned of being perceived and effectively can look at this 2 ways. You could have your own personal board within an organization, which is basically what you're talking about, and you can have your own personal board outside of the organization to sort of balance the 2, to help you be a more balanced person. But I do want to— I do want to talk to the audience about being careful of one thing, which is shutting down your personal board. And people do this without realizing it, and it destroys the intent of getting solid advice from people that you respect.

Wow.

And I recently had to coach somebody on this because they were constantly calling me and other people that I would introduce the person to, asking for the advice, and after the advice was given, would make a comment like, well, you know, I've spoken to 10 other people, and, you know, 7 of them disagree with you. That's a no-no. Please, audience, if you're seeking advice, don't do that. The response is, thank you so much. I appreciate your feedback. It's given me a wider perspective.

Yes, totally right. You know, CB, you could not be more accurate. We, we do peer mentoring circles when we do leadership development. And just because of that, so the person who's being mentored shares, here's my issue. Here is what I've done so far. And here's where I would like some help, right? And so they're in a circle. And then what we make that person do is turn their chair around.

No!

So the back is facing their advisory group. So they can't roll their eyes or click their tongue or interrupt. They're not allowed to say anything. You know, not, I've already tried that. They just are, they just can take notes. That's the only thing they can do. And then after the peer mentoring is over, they turn their chair around and the only thing they can say is, Thank you. That was really helpful.

You're totally right.

Right? You're totally right.

How can I get into that group? I want in.

I think there's a lot of tongue biting.

Right?

But it also, because they're taking notes and they're listening, then we tell people, you have to take some space to process what you heard, process your reaction. And process the thoughts that were stimulated from that. It can't be this react right away because it's your automatic part of your brain that is your biased part of your brain, your habitual thinking part of your brain that's actually reacting. Give the thoughtful part of your brain a chance to process. That's exactly— I totally agree with you.

You're so right. In all transparency to the listening, Audience, as Tricia sits on my board for my new company, Workplace Racial Equality. And we have been having meetings, and my normal way of doing business— Tricia knows this— is to jump first and figure out where I'm going to land as I'm falling down. The board has said to me, no, CB, you can't do this. You have to have this in place and that in place and process. And I'm like screaming internally. I want to just move forward.

Why did I ask you people?

I have learned to zip it and just process it for a week because within my disagreement, within the advice, there's always a diamond. Yes.

But, you know, I will say, CB, it works both ways, right? Because you are so bold. It's a great— I mean, this is great shared leadership. Right? You are bold. You leap. And so you, you're taking all of us with you on this leap. So it's this, right? We're doing this.

Yes.

The swing is eventually— your swing is eventually taking all of us farther. So yeah, it's, it's a great though model of shared leadership.

Yeah. The dye works very well on my hair. Hey, I want to mention the book that Marcus mentioned to us called The Flight of the Buffalo by Belasco and Stayer. That's B-E-L-A-S-C-O and Stayer, S-T-A-Y-E-R. Talks about shared leadership.

Oh, thank you, Mark. I appreciate that. I, I don't know that one, so Yeah.

Hey, we're running a minute over because this has been so great. I do want you to come back, but I think I need to wrap up before the audience kills me because I could go on for another 10 hours talking to you. So Tricia, thank you so much for coming. It's been incredibly valuable.

Totally my pleasure, you know.

Oh, I can't thank you enough. So everybody, this has been CB Bowman Live. And thank you so much for coming and meeting Tricia Nadolph. And please take a look at the instruments her company offers, especially if you're a coach or a leader who is looking for a coach, who is looking for this kind of support. Reach out and contact Tricia at Management Research Group. That's MRG. Until next week, stay safe, stay bold.

Bye now.