Challenges of the C-Suite with Susan MacKenty Brady, Episode 22

Hello everybody. This is CB Bowman live. And you have to forgive me today because my good camera is not working. So I'm using my good camera from the Apple. Maybe I shouldn't tell you, but it's an Apple, a new one. And it's pretty good except that the color is a little bit off. And so you have to swing with that today.

Hi, CB.

So how are you today? Uh, we have another fabulous guest, and you know, this is CB Bowman Live Challenges of the C-Suite because it is Tuesday, and on Thursdays we do workplace equity and equality. So today we have the infamous Susan on, and Susan is going to tell us all about how life in a fantastic school. So let's introduce her and find out exactly what she does, and we're going to talk about her book that came out in 2018 because I think it's, it's got an important message. And you know how we like to do this. We like to pretend we're in the living room, glass of wine, laughing, smiling, and learning. So with that— I'm introducing Susan. Susan, tell us about yourself.

Hi, CB, thanks for having me today. Um, hi everybody, my name is Susan McIntee Brady. I, uh, pretty much go by Susan Brady, but there's a lot of us out there, Susan Bradys, uh, so I use my maiden name lovingly. Um, and I am so pleased to be here. I am outside of the Boston area and I currently serve as the first Chief Executive Officer of the Simmons University Institute for Inclusive Leadership and also hold the Deloitte Ellen Gabriel Chair for Women in Leadership at Simmons University. I'm delighted to be here.

Thank you so much. Susan and I are colleagues in MG100. That's how we first met. And, you know, I mean, come on, there's so many amazing people that we got to talk to and experience. We are really lucky. I want to focus first— let's see, what should I do first? Let's focus first on the university.

Okay.

So here's my question. We see so much negative things so many negative things about students and young children today. And I don't mean infants. I'm talking about, you know, in their 20s and, you know, teens. And we as adults are concerned about what's going to happen with leadership.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm sure every generation faced the same question. What does Simmons do to prepare First of all, tell us about the culture at Simmons. What do you— what happens to prepare students for leadership?

Yes. So, you know, the first thing I want to share is that I'm relatively new to Simmons University, and I'm new to the academic world. You know, my background is very much in coaching and consulting and also working with leadership development firms. I spent several years, 7, as a matter of fact, almost 8 with a spinoff of the Harvard Negotiation Project, and then worked for several organizations where I served as leader in different leadership roles or executive roles. And I joined Simmons almost 2 years ago in April. Simmons University is in the city of Boston proper. We're actually, for those listeners who have familiarity with Simmons, we're right behind Fenway Park and what's called the, the Emerald Necklace of beautiful downtown Boston. So lots of greenery around us. Simmons was founded, CB, over 100 years ago by a gentleman named John Simmons who bequeathed his estate to create a college for one reason: to create independent livelihood for women. That was a very forward-thinking dream on his part and very visionary at the time. because women need not apply. I mean, gosh, women couldn't— we couldn't own land, we couldn't open a bank account, we couldn't drive cars, we couldn't vote. I mean, just to get yourself in the context of the day, to be educated was just, you know, a phenomenal vision. And have since enjoyed a history of welcoming new eras. So when those of the Jewish faith were not welcome elsewhere in higher education, Simmons University welcomed. When those who were born African American were not welcomed elsewhere, we welcomed them. I have to say I'm very proud also that our undergraduate population is still a women-centered population, but they define their gender. So we happen to have a very open mind as to, as to who is here with us and ensuring that they can be who they are, that they are, that their full identity can show up. With that as backdrop, we do have a big and growing graduate population, closer to 8,000 to 10,000 students all over the country. And we're a, you know, like private liberal arts undergraduate institution, relatively small. In terms of your question of leadership, I'm so excited about what the future holds because, you know, what we know about women, which has been my expertise, what we know about women is we are less likely to identify as a leader in our life, mainly because our, the precedent and those who hold leadership positions has predominantly been imprinted for us as a male construct. And just yesterday, CB, I was reading, finishing a great bestselling business book in its 3rd edition. And there were lots of quotes in it throughout the book. And I ended up going back and counting 144 quotes on leadership, 14 of them were from women, female leaders. The rest of them were from male leaders. We're still operating in a world where the access to leadership and identity of leadership isn't equitable. What I feel really excited about is there's a new level of awareness and consciousness about a cry for leadership, about a need for leadership. We're seeing the democratization of leadership happening younger and younger. So at Simmons, we have all sorts of ways we develop leaders. And that's inside the classroom, outside of the classroom. And then the work that I do at the Institute is actually focusing on professionals further down in their lifetime, where they have since graduated from Simmons or other places and they're in the workplace. And we work with some of the best companies in the world to help all people continue on their journey of leadership development. I can say more, but let me pause there.

How do you specifically help women? Can you give us some examples or some real-life examples other than it's learning?

Right. Yeah. Look, We have a new president who is Simmons's 9th president, Dr. Lynn Perry Wooten. Prior to joining Simmons as our president, she was with Cornell for a while and before that, the Ross School at University of Michigan. Dr. Wooten has coined the phrase everyday leadership. What we want to instill and what we work on is showing up fully and leading in our everyday life so that we can speak up in ways that, that can be heard. We focus on opportunities.

What does that mean, showing up fully? Sorry.

Yeah, yeah, so I can be myself. I don't have to cover. I don't have to hide. I don't have to be small. I don't have to, I don't have to worry what other people will think. There's, there's safety in being able to show up.

You know, I thought about being small.

Yeah, CB, I didn't go to an undergraduate institution that was one gender. I didn't, I didn't go to an all-women's institution. And frankly, I came to Simmons really excited about the reverence for the institution because we had the first MBA for women. We, I mean, we I feel like I'm sitting on the shoulders of giants in this women's leadership arena. The authors of one of the most seminal works on women's leadership called The Managerial Women, they started the School of Management at Simmons University. So there was a lot of firsts here at Simmons. And I think there's been— I think one of the things I'm discovering is that there is something special about going to an all to a women-centered undergraduate institution at that formidable age because there's not as much worry about speaking up. I think there's more— there's less— I don't know, I haven't spent as much time with the student population, but there is something magical. Now what Lynn is doing, and in part I'm—

I have to stop you because this is so fascinating. When I grew up, women Were the biggest enemy to other women.

Right.

Yeah. How do you get beyond that at Simmons?

So I have to just tell you, I miss, I miss working with men. I've never— this— we're highly indexed with women at Simmons at the staff level, at the faculty level, and of course at the student level. And I what I see is when there's a majority, a mass majority of one identity, there isn't the scarcity as much mentality among what is an underrepresented population in the rest of the world, right? So even though the world is— last time I checked it was like 49.9% of the world's population is born female. And, you know, we don't see women in leadership positions and organizational life represented in government life in any sector. And I think when I think about what it's like not to have to compete, a lot of that is about scarcity. So when I think about women and women not supporting each other, a lot of it is like this somehow stamped— I do think it's implicit, covert. I was never told this, but there is this notion like they only— they, They only can tolerate so many of us in leadership specifically. You don't see very many leadership teams that are actually gender balanced. You don't see many boards that are gender balanced.

That's for sure.

There is still like, oh, there's only one spot. But just even going back to this book that I read and thinking, oh my gosh, I've heard all these quotes and I'm working on my on my next book, I'm writing it with, with Dr. Wooten and with also with, um, with Chairman of the Board of Deloitte, Janet Foutty. And we're, we're, we're publishing with McGraw-Hill Publishing. And the premise, um, the premise of the work is about arriving and thriving in leadership. And so, you know, it's not just about getting there, it's about when we are there, how do we take care of ourselves and how do we actually thrive? Because, you know, I love it. One of my sheroes is the very wonderful Tiffany Dufu, who wrote the book Drop the Ball, which I just, I love. It's all about basically dropping the ball, saying no, saying, you know, saying some boundaries, not trying to be everything to everybody. But one of her greatest quotes is, if you are a woman in leadership and you took that elevator to the top, It is incumbent upon you to send it back down, to bring up others.

Hallelujah.

Hallelujah. And I think it's just learned, you know, very— I'd say 10 years ago, CB, I would meet women in business who would look at me in the eye and say, it is not my job to bring other women along.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I worked hard.

I didn't get this because I was a woman.

And you work hard to get there.

The phenomenal thing that's happened, I think, that I've seen in the last handful of years is that without an armor that is anti-men, I see more women being— feeling responsible for other women. And I see men being responsible. For bringing up women.

Yes.

It's like the Great Awakening, you know.

I, you know, I asked that question on purpose because my observation of this new work generation is that women have taken the position of we together, not we separately.

Yes.

And they are even at the lowest level They're starting to reach down and help not only bring people up to their level, but to push other women up that may be higher than them. And it's quite remarkable. And quite frankly, I wish I was born now because—

Oh yeah.

This concept of sisterhood has really embedded itself In action, not just words.

And now what I'm starting to see— and there's pockets, obviously, I think we're still on our journey of maturation— I'm seeing more diverse friendships. I'm seeing more, you know, white women bring women of color or Black women of color along, and vice versa, right? So I work for an African American woman, and I have to tell you, like, It is, it's really cool to be alongside Lynn at this moment in our journey where we get to sort of create a whole new, you know, with lots of other fabulous people at Simmons, create a whole new future for leadership. One thing I just want to return to before I forget is something's happening in higher education that I think is really important that isn't quite known about yet. And that is, you know, having in our pre-chat, we— you and I talked about how my daughter Caroline is applying to schools. She's a senior in high school. You know, as a shopping parent to a college or university in the United States, you don't know, although many claim, how and if a university or college really develops leadership. Well, And, and, you know, there are lots of other— there's, you know, the, the, there's, there's the, the, um, uh, I call them the Good Housekeeping stamp of approvals, the different kind of accolades that schools get around different programs. And what the Carnegie Foundation is doing in partnership with a mentor of mine, Tom Colditz, down at, uh, the Door Institute at Rice University and several schools, including Simmons, is creating a new classification, which will be an elective classification that schools can apply for. That essentially is saying we develop leaders, we do this with intention, we do this because it's our mission, because it shows up in our classroom, because it shows up in our extracurricular, because it shows up in how we develop the whole person during a 4-year undergraduate experience. And it'll be the elective classification for leadership development. And I'd say by the time my 15-year-old is applying for schools, this will— people will know that you can look for colleges or universities that are purposely setting out to develop leaders, and they will show you how. They'll explain. A lot of this is sort of implicit. We have a leadership program over here, we have a scholarship program over there, or we teach leadership studies in the class. classroom. But we're really talking business now. And because, because to your earliest point, the world needs more leaders. And I think it's incumbent on higher education to take this as maybe its highest calling.

Okay, I have to go there. How many people of color are part of designing this program?

It's a really good question. A number of them, right? So Tom Kolditz and the folks at Carnegie who handpicked the inaugural base of essentially leadership practitioners and leadership scholars and those who are working at institutions of higher education in the US, they looked at a gender diversity, they looked at ethnic diversity, they looked at— I think they looked at age diversity. So I would say I went down to just before the pandemic broke out, January of last year. It was the kickoff to this, and I would say there was anywhere between 30 and 35 of us, and it was a fairly diverse crowd. Now, was it, uh, perfectly you know, when I looked around, did I see a lot of white male scholars? Yes. And however, I did see a lot of diversity. So I can tell you that the, you know, the, the, the base group is diverse. And I think we're getting a lot of dimensions of diversity in perspective as this elective is being built.

And so then my next question is the diversity side. How many are from the United States? Because it represents a different viewpoint, a different lens when you're diverse but not from these states.

Yeah. It's funny that you mentioned the US and diversity because I was told years ago that the word inclusion doesn't translate in Mandarin. I'm still not sure that's accurate or not, but the idea was that we have such an ethnocentric story arc in history here of the United States around diversity and how we view diversity. Some cultures don't see it. That's a whole— that's a Thursday conversation, not a Tuesday conversation. The truth of the matter, I think, is the elective classification that I'm speaking about is really for accredited US-based colleges and universities.

Because I have colleagues of mine that are now working on the global perspective of leadership, which includes not just diversity in terms of people of color, but it also includes cultural or indigenous population, and the language is different. But going back to the United States, I ask this because— and please don't take this negatively— but I'm starting tomorrow night a Clubhouse room that's called Challenges for Black executives, leadership challenges for Black executives.

The reason why I'm starting this is because our challenges are very different in the space of leadership than the white challenges. And in developing programs like you're speaking of, my fear is that the leadership will be directed to answer the call for white leaders. Even if you have Black people participating in the designing of the program, they're not going to go there. My program is designed to go there.

Mm-hmm. When—

and let me give you a really good example, and I know it's a Thursday conversation, but it is about education. As the leader of an organization of executive coaches, I face discrimination all the time within my association, and I'm the CEO of it.

Mm-hmm.

And it doesn't look like yesterday's discrimination. It's very different.

In what way?

So I might be told, well, I'm not sure where you're going with this. There's no plan or no— now, some of this is good feedback, but some of it is very clear that, you know, if you go on the website or if you look at why you joined. It's right there in front of you. What exactly is the challenge here?

You have to think because we are people of color. Is the challenge resistance? Is the challenge— does it have to do with diversity? Does it have to do with jealousy as a Black woman who's moving up as a thought leader? You know, all of these things play in our minds, and we have no place to go to discuss it. And that's part of leadership.

Yep.

Right? Because you're not quite sure where you're leading what. Where is the truth? Right? And so these are hard conversations that must be dealt with. if you're preparing a program for leadership?

First of all, CB, I think it's wonderful that you're creating this group. Since the beginning of time, people with like interests and like experiences want to connect with one another. Be that people who enjoy chess or people who identify in the same racial identity or the same gender. There is something of merit and important to bring like people together to say, what do you experience? Oh my gosh, I experienced that too. What does this mean for us? So I think this is really important. And in the conversation of leadership, you know, look, the dimensions of intersection when it comes to thinking about how to be a leader are vast. And it's funny, when I wrote— even the field of women's leadership has become so multidimensional.

Absolutely.

I mean, I even find a problem saying women's leadership now, right? Because so many different people identify differently. And the point, I think, last I checked, is to bring everyone along. I, you know, I go back to, you know, my job as a leader and as this— as the CEO of this growing institute is, uh, to— first of all, I— my mission is to demystify inclusion, and having conversations like this is a great way to do it. Um, the— I think we have to start getting— we just have to start talking about it.

Yes.

You know what I would be interested in. If you said, Susan, I'm having this private Clubhouse group and we're not going to ever share with anybody anything that we learn ever, I would say, well, that'll be a crying shame. You know, what I would hope would come out of the Clubhouse group is an insight or several insights that can be shared with those of us who spend every day thinking about how do we foster better, more and better leadership in the world, and how do we create environments where everybody wants to show up. And bring their full selves and all their strengths and their glory to the table? How do we make others feel valued, especially when they're different? You know, so look, CB, there's lots of paths to this. I do see this though, for sure. And this is, I would say, regardless, but maybe not because of, but regardless of however the election in the US turned out. There's— I really believe there's a great awakening to the point where we got it. We had a global pandemic to help us out, just sit and look at what happened this summer with the murder of George Floyd and look at what it is to wake up white.

Yeah.

And look at, you know, I had an experience this summer where I thought, oh my gosh, here I've been talking to men about women and talking to women about women and working on a mission of creating more gender parity in leadership and organizational life. And I really wanted to, to engage men because I don't think we've made it easy for men to come into the conversation about women.

No, we haven't.

Yeah, this summer I got super compassionate with what it's been like to be a man on the topic of women's leadership because I thought maybe me being white with my new awareness that maybe I wasn't seeing the full picture.

And, and there is another side of it, um, that is happening, which is men saying that we are feminizing leadership. That's another phrase that I'm hearing.

And I'm—

what do you mean? Because we're saying to men They can show their feelings now because they can— they understand what empathic means and they are delivering against that. Does that make it feminine? The answer is, yeah, probably. It's stuck in this gray zone now.

Right. If you look at classical feminine characteristics and classical masculine characteristics. Some of the best leaders I've ever had the pleasure of learning from and working with have had a real mix of both.

Yes.

I personally feel like I can run pretty— like I present just because I have a lot of self-confidence.

I'm tall.

I carry myself with confidence. I can present as pretty straightforward with masculine traits. I'm also, I think, have some feminine traits. And I think Part of the democratization of leadership is not having to cast leadership as masculine or feminine.

Exactly.

It can be both. It will be both. It is both.

Yes, it has to be both.

Yeah. One of the things that my colleagues, my former colleagues at Linkage and I talked about a lot, and they wrote a book about, is about how we leaders mature and become. But first and foremost, to remind everybody that leadership is relationship. It is a— it's a social construct. It's a, it's a, it's a relationship between people. And if you're in a relationship, and this is where my background and area of expertise is, if you're in a relationship, there's 2 things going on. There's my perception, my thoughts and feelings, and there's your perception and your thoughts and feelings. And the extent to which we can understand, identify, and navigate our own stuff and your stuff is really the recipe to how successful we'll be in leadership and relationship. That stuff is not feminine. That's called good relationship consciousness. And sadly, there's a lot of need. You know this. You've been coaching for years and years. The leaders who derail rarely derail because of functional incompetence, because they're not actually good at their functional job.

Right.

Rarely. They derail because they can't— they don't know how to manage.

Connect.

Yes, they don't know how to connect. They don't know how to care. They don't know how to show humanity and vulnerability and authenticity and all these things that don't get to just be cast aside as feminine traits, you know.

And what's ironic is our government's rules and regulations now make it even more difficult For men to express that side because it's like sexual harassment or, you know, um, lack of diversity or whatever the name is going to be. It now has a label that says it's illegal. So where do you go?

Well, Look, there needs to be policy. There needs to be, there needs to be a change in the rules so that the really bad behavior stops.

Yes, I totally agree.

And yet there is a shadow side to the stick, right? The shadow side is fear. And I, I call that I would say, you know, I call BS on that because I can sit back and say, gosh, I'm a white girl and I, you know, I grew up in a middle-class family and I'm educated and I know all my privileges. I'm not touching this thing called race. I'm not, I'm not going to explore what it might be like for other women who identify in a myriad of ways who come from different cultural backgrounds because gosh forbid, what if I say something wrong? That would be Um, taken the easy, the easy road.

And it would— We are, we are. We're afraid to ask, we're afraid to discuss.

And we got to discuss it. But here's the thing, like, I think it needs to be done with gentleness and compassion.

Yes, it can be, but it takes time to develop that skill.

Well, that's right. And by the way, like, I haven't had— I mean, yes and no. I mean, I've talked to my, um, I've talked to many women of many different identities about safety and what it's like to grow up as, as a woman and feel unsafe. Um, and I think that one of the privileges I've experienced is being quite tall. It didn't feel like a privilege, by the way. It's actually sort of painful to be 5'9 in 5th grade and have the boys laugh at you and feel awkward, and you know what I mean?

Right, yeah.

But I, I don't have as present a feeling being physically unsafe. Um, in my—

taller than they were.

That's it, right? Right. And by the way, that's super uncomfortable for most men that I've, you know, in business. It's like, oh my gosh, you know, why do you have to talk about my height? You know, like, I— you can— there's so many other things that we can talk about right now. But when I use that as an example, because I think, um, the—

I have to tell you, remember where you are. I remember when I was at a food company because I come out of marketing for consumer products. And there was an advertising agency that we worked with in branding. And the head of the account for this company, and it was a worldwide, worldwide company, was a woman. And I would say, when I first heard this, I thought, how did she get that position?

Right?

The first time I saw her walking down the halls of the company, I said, that's Al. She was tall. She wore a red suit, high heels, red lipstick, and the skirt was short. And when she spoke, she commanded that room. But she stood out, and I'm like— Whoa, that is a woman who is so sure of herself. And I said, this woman has now become my role model. I would watch everything she did.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rooted in confidence.

Um, yes.

Yeah. Uh, so I, I can't remember where I was going before. I just, I have to tell you, we were talking about differences in talking about talking about that.

Yes.

I will tell you, I just— we're going to launch our new website for our institute this month, later in March. And I knew I wanted to have a podcast. And what I really wanted to call the podcast, given that we are www.inclusiveleadership.com, or we will be in 3 weeks, and we are the Institute for Inclusive Leadership, and we're riding on 100 years of male allyship and allyship and inclusive leadership, and women's leadership. I really wanted to call it The Inclusivist. And I realized that that might garner lots of excitement from people like us who have every Thursday, we geek out with our friends about inclusive leadership and diversity and inclusion.

Yes.

But we're singing to the choir. And I think what's incumbent upon those of us who are in the space of awakening to being, how to be in the world in a more inclusive way, is that we speak in ways and we invite people in in ways where they feel welcome. Not like, oh gosh, the thought police are waiting for me and I'm gonna say something wrong, you know.

Yeah.

And so instead, I decided that the name of the podcast would be The Better Understanding Podcast because that's really what I want. And I think it's what's needed. And it just takes courage. That's all, is to say, CB, what's it been like for you? Because I didn't— I don't have any idea what that must be like. What was your journey? Tell me about you. How did, you know, how did you come to this work? You know, and I think it's through those stories and realizing that we're all human, and at the core we connect around this simple thing called love, you know.

Well, we, we both know that One of the greatest strengths in coaching is storytelling because our brain is wired to remember a story versus a floating piece of fact.

Yep.

Yeah.

Yep.

So I love what you're doing. Hey, we've got a question. Susan, I like the work the Dorr Institute is doing with your mentor. Yeah.

This is the Doerr Institute for New Leaders at Rice University. And they're, you know, look, if you want to look at any college or university that's developing leaders, they actually, they just, Tom Koldes just published a book, The Great Reckoning, Leadership Reckoning. It's available via Amazon now. And they share everything. So he has this belief that everything they do at the Doerr Institute they will openly share with everybody. They give their materials away. But you know what, CB, you would love this. The whole program that they've done is focused on professional coaches because they—

I am aware of that because the association that I have, which is the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches, through our MECO Leadership Institute, gave them a designation a few years ago.

Okay. Yeah.

But my concern is, and I think I love the concept that they have, that students are exposed to coaching and leadership. My concern is it's based upon a singular methodology from a single association. Whereas this ACEC, my association, is based upon multiple methodologies, multiple theories to fit the client or the person or the client that is being coached.

I would, you know, Tom would be a really interesting guest for this. I'm probably at my capacity of being able to speak to even the methodology. I wasn't aware that it was a single methodology. Uh, you know, so, so I I think that it's paradigm-breaking to bring professional coaching to a population that's an undergraduate-aged population. And it's showing a great acceleration in leadership and risk-taking and showing up fully, you know, all the things that, you know, I've been talking about. And so I think they're learning and they're experimenting and they're doing some cool work down there. So the elective classification, though, with Carnegie, just to be clear, clear isn't going to be based on the Doerr Institute. I think Doerr has— the Doerr Institute has said, hey, we got to get this clear. It's, it's, it's, it's far time that a school in the United States can't just say in their branding and not be able to, you know.

And, you know, it's not to say that the program at Doerr is not good. It's just the way that the Doerrs gave them the money, they had to use a specific program from an association in our field.

I wasn't aware of that. That's interesting.

Yeah. Well, that's interesting.

Okay.

And it's too bad because it's a great platform to bring in other methodologies other than appreciative inquiry, right? But we'll see. We'll see how it develops. And, you know, I look forward to their growing. And as all schools today, they're fighting through the COVID pandemic in terms of how do you onboard students? What do you do with them? How are you going to charge? It is a pretty traumatic experience.

I have to tell you, I'm really proud of the Simmons community and our collective commitment and real dedication to wellness. I mean, we're looking at very scary statistics across All generations right now about a decline in mental health, the likes of which we've never seen.

Yes.

Oh my gosh.

Oh my gosh. And, you know—

You know what?

I hate to do this to everybody, but my furnace is broke and I think the guy that's going to fix it just rang my doorbell. So talk about the school.

My host just left. That's really funny. Well, I feel like I'm alone, but I'm not alone. And I don't know if I can see everybody that is there, but what I was going to say is that Simmons is taking very seriously this work of mental health and supporting faculty, staff, and students with different programming and different resources. And I think it's incumbent upon all organizations to step up in this way, even though it can be uncomfortable. You good?

Yeah, he's gonna just come in the door and go downstairs. This is Colorado where, you know, trust everybody, right?

Yeah, come on in.

Yeah, exactly. So, but it's so cold here that I just, you know, I had to— he came on an emergency basis.

I got it. Yeah.

Hey, I want to just talk about your book. Um, okay, I wrote it down because the title is so long. I'm going to get it wrong. It's Mastering the Inner Critic: 7 Other Highly— I can't even read my handwriting.

7 Other High Hurdles.

To Advancement: How the Best Women Leaders Practice Self-Awareness to Change What Really Matters, McGraw-Hill. I love it. Yes.

I was just kidding with my, with, with my editor the other day. I was like, you know, I, I, that was like the long temporary title. And she was like, no, it has to be that. So anyway, if it makes you feel any better, I have to look at the title. You know, Mastering Your Inner Critic is, is sort of the, the headline. So what would you like to know, CB?

So, inner critic. So, you know, this, this show really talks about the challenges of the C-suite. And I just thought that Talking to you about what's happening in the schools for leadership is great because, you know, youngsters coming out, being able to deal with leadership at this time is critical. And when I saw the book that you had written, I thought, so women tend to suffer from the imposter syndrome.

Mm-hmm.

And that is so connected with what you wrote that— what do— first, what do schools do about that? Second, tell us a little bit about the solutions to it. I'm not one that suffers from this. First, define imposter syndrome.

So let me say a little bit about the the research behind the inner critic. Uh, obviously if you Google inner critic, you'll get like 10,000 hits. So I certainly didn't, um, coin the phrase the inner critic. I think my contribution to this is bringing from the mental health industry where I worked for a period of time, uh, into the corporate leadership lexicon the idea that I could coach my inner critic and The mistake I think most people make when they see the title or even have the conversation is that the inner critic is just focused on self. The part about mastery that I find most interesting, frankly, is every human being, including a woman's human being, every human being's capacity to actually have judgment and be critical of others. And so what— it's the fair game of I'm not good enough. You know, it's the I suck, I'm an idiot, you suck, you're an idiot, and back and forth we go. And I think it's very subtle for women. I think sometimes it can be loud, sometimes it's not. But for me, certainly, um, there was a lot of I'm not good enoughs. Uh, and by the way, I, I didn't suffer a lack of self-confidence. And I separate worthiness from confidence. Worthiness is a belief that I'm fundamentally enough and I'm okay. Confidence believes that like I can go out and conquer something, sure. While I'm doing that I might not feel thin enough, you know, smart enough, pretty enough, whatever, fill in the blank enough. But I'll go do that. So the world sees me be confident and on the inside I'm actually very self-critical. There's a difference, right? Worthiness you don't build; you believe confidence you build. So the distinction is important because you don't have to do anything to become worthy. We are worthy, and in so many ways we're we're sort of introduced to our lack of enoughness as women in particular. And and the more opportunity we get in the world. The more choices we have, the more complex our lives are, the more we're faced with not being enough because we have such a high bar for being fully in, in so many roles. And so what I kind of walked in my own journey and then started to work with women in their journey is, how do I navigate this terrain when I'm introduced to either not being enough or not feeling like I did it well enough, or or however that shows up. And then, how do I deal with the part of me that feels disappointed by the people in my life? Either disappointed by my leader who's really, I don't think, clear or as great as he or she might think they are, or disappointed by my spouse because they're not pulling their weight or maybe not trying as hard as I think they should. And so, I focus on the shoulds, the shouldn'ts, and the supposed-tos. Those are all good signs that your inner critic is having a field day. But it's not just about us. So imposter syndrome is a psychological disorder. I mean, it is a real—

Really?

Belief that we're not actually— like, we're going to be found out. I call it the found-out syndrome. Like, somebody is going to discover that I don't have really what it takes to do what I've just been ordained or anointed to do. be that, you know, whatever new title I have. And, you know, I think it's— I was just listening to Adam Grant's new book before Marshall Goldsmith said, listen, I wrote Marshall. I was like, oh my God, I'm listening to it a second time because I'm obsessed with better understanding and rethinking thinking. And I love to joke that, you know, I even do this with my team. Like, I reserve the right to change my mind about anything I've said in the past.

Yes.

I am a walking, learning, you know, whatever.

So That is so corporate. I just—

but I—

it's not because I don't want anybody to believe me in the moment. It's like I, I tend to feel like, okay, it's important that I— that given the information we have now, we see this, uh, and then you might see something new, and, and it's incumbent upon us to stay open-minded. But anyway, so look, the whole book— and, um, you know, I wrote it in my last, in my last job with colleagues, um, who are carrying out the work of, of The 7 Hurdles and other work into the world through Linkage. And I've since moved on. I'm working on my next book. But the whole work about that is something that'll stay with me and I'll do for the rest of my life. And that is at the core of all of this, of the great awakening, of the cry for leadership, at the core is a cry for people who are more self-aware. It starts within. You know, in order to get interested about you, I have to have the awareness that, A, it's okay that you and I might see differently and that your perspective is important, you know, and that my perspective is important. So here's the thing. I think that the world is less tolerant of women who don't manage themselves well from a social interaction standpoint.

Oh my God. That is a powerful statement.

I—

wow. And when you think about it, it's so true.

And look, I think men need to get— we men need to get their act together as well. And I think we're being perpetrated. I think, I think there's this undiscussed— and women talk— going back to what you said about women and women, I might not feel like there's scarcity at the top, but let me tell you, I'm not going to work for a woman who can't manage herself and who isn't really skillful at everything, at the interpersonal thing. I want the intelligence, I want the vision. So the bar is high for women still. And it doesn't bode well for our inner critic when it's focused on us, right? Because we're human and we're gonna, you know, mess up every now and then. So how do we self-regulate back to a place of feeling good enough? And feeling respectful and compassionate for those around us, essentially operating from this place of in this book I called it compassionate center. Right now I'm referring it to, and I and I kind of love the concept of best self. So we we all can identify who we are when we're at our best, when we're in that glory of I feel good about who I am and what I'm doing and what I'm bringing to the table, and I feel of value. How do we operate from that place more. Um, and by the way, that doesn't mean that I'm better than— it doesn't mean—

No, it does mean you're coming from a source of abundance.

Yeah, I struggle with the, the source of abundance. And when I'm coming from my best self, it's, it's bright light. When I see other people's bright light, I struggle with the reality of shadow that's cast by that bright light. But let me tell you, if I had to—

That's an interesting discussion. Yeah.

Well, it's a whole other— if I had to pick though, I'd want everybody to be shining brightly.

Yeah, to hell with the shadow.

Because, you know, if you are shrinking because of someone else's bright light, or you're trying to dominate your bright light, you don't have— yeah, it's suboptimal.

It's coming from a source of scarcity. It really is. Yeah, yeah.

So I mean, look, I, I think, I think the time is right now to do our work, to look within, to think about, you know, um, our deeply held beliefs, uh, what unconscious and conscious imprints we had as children and young adults, and, and to rethink some of our thinking about this.

Mm-hmm.

Now is the time. Yeah.

Absolutely.

I hate to cut this off. Um, Orly writes, so true indeed, women are expected to manage themselves well. Well, we would like for women to manage themselves well, and certainly there are people like Susan and her writing that can help us get there. And I love the lesson coming out of this, is when you exude power is when you receive power, right?

The more power you give away, the more powerful.

Absolutely. And I had to really stop and think because when I come from a place of weakness, on occasion, rare occasion, it's like people are moving away.

When I come from the source of strength and I'm staying my true north, it's Synchronicity. Everything falls in place.

It's open-heartedness. I know my gifts and talents. I see your gifts and talents, and we both get to be bright and light together in the world, which is cool. Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you so much, Susan. Audience, I'm so glad you had a chance to hear this. It's such exciting things. I thank you. That's all I can say.

And I'm happy to come on a Thursday sometime too, CB. You just let me know.

You got it. And I'm gonna have— I'd love to. And I'm gonna have you come into my Clubhouse too. Are you on Clubhouse yet?

No, I think I need an invitation. Are you inviting me?

Yes, I am.

Okay, good. Y'all just heard it here.

Yes, I am. We'll talk about how that has to be set up. You have an iPhone, right? Oh yeah. Okay, we're on to Inside Conversation. I'm gonna set you up. You're good to go.

Thank you, CB. Bye, everybody.

Everybody remember to tune in to CB Bowman Live on Thursday now, and we'll have another special guest. And look forward to Susan coming back on that show. And listen to me on Clubhouse on— I feel like I'm part of the in-crowd now. On Saturday morning, 9 o'clock Mountain Time, we talk about monetization of executive coaching. And on Wednesday at 5:30 Mountain Time, we talk about challenges that Black leaders face in the workplace. So come and join me. And thank you so much, Susan. I can't wait to see you again.

Thanks, CB. See you soon. Bye.