Challenges of the C-Suite with Nancy Parsons, Episode 25

Hello everybody. Gosh, you know, it startled me when it went live just now for some reason. I'm a newbie. But hi everyone. Hi. Hello. You know, that's our guest speaking in. Let me just say a few words to you. Um, you To hear me. But you know, you can also, if you missed the show, it's also on YouTube and Facebook. I guess I shouldn't be telling you that since you're tuning in on LinkedIn. We'll keep it our secret. You know how, how we do secrets, right? And it's on iHeartRadio and Apple Podcasts. So So if you're in your car and you want to listen to the shows, you can just tune in. Don't look at the videos while you're driving. Right. Okay. Now here's what I want to tell you. Here's some news. One, this Thursday we won't be on. We're going to take a little vacation, you know, celebrate the holiday, but we'll be back next Monday and Thursday. And next Thursday, here's my secret for the week. I'm going to be beta testing a brand new show on this channel, and you don't want to miss it. And I will tell you— well, now I'm not going to tell you. I'm going to let you tune in, right? Our secret.

Right.

Don't miss it though. Um, so today we have A kick-ass woman on. I'm just, you know, I say it like it is. Nancy Parsons. Nancy won our Thought Leader Award. She was one of the winners for the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches back in 2018. And that was the last conference where we're able to get face-to-face. But speaking of conferences, ACEC, you know, the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches, is going online with our first conference online by Zoom. I am so excited. So you see it flashing through, copy down the website, go on, sign up. Here's another secret: if you're listening in and There's a discount code. Use the code LinkedIn, but don't do it until tomorrow. Okay, so you'll get a discount on the tickets. How about that?

Mm-hmm.

Does CB not know how to reward her listeners? Yes, she does. Okay, so let's start today. Nancy has Has developed some amazing programs for executives. She's the person to answer our question, what are the challenges? And you know something she's doing? She's doing something special with her daughter and her sister-in-law. Talk about women's power. Oh my God, she's going to tell us about it. So let's rock this out, you know. Nancy, welcome, and please introduce yourself.

Well, thank you, CB. I'm delighted to be here. And yeah, I am the president of CDR Companies. I've been at this for 23 years with, with my business, uh, having a great time. We love what we do. We offer assessments, executive coaching, we certify executive coaches, we do a lot of leadership executive development, and now we're moving into the talent development arena more too. So that's all exciting.

Fantastic. And so when you may— when you mean certified, you mean certified people, coaches in your program, right?

Yes. And in our assessments, and also we do some advanced training, um, training on team development using assessments and that sort of thing. So it's a lot of fun.

Her program is recognized. If you wanted to join ACEC as a master level coach, You know that you need to have some assessments, uh, under your belt, and Nancy's program is one of the ones that you can have, right? So now, first though, in honor of women, I want to know what it is that you're doing with your daughter. I think that's so cool.

Yeah, yeah. So I'm gonna actually have, uh, tomorrow on a LinkedIn Live, my 2 daughters who are successful in leadership, and my daughter-in-law. So it's the 3 of them. And one's on the East Coast, one's on the West Coast, one's in Houston. It's going to be a ball. So we're honoring Women's History Month. And also, I have written a couple of books on women in leadership. And we've done a lot of research. So we'll reflect some on that too. We're calling it Second Generation Women Leaders because I would consider myself first generation. Because I was 21 years old when the Pregnancy Act went into effect, which meant women could no longer get fired for being pregnant or for being within their childbearing years. So we're really, even though there were pioneer women before us, don't get me wrong, I'm not taking away from that, but before we could actually not be fired for that natural giving birth. So we're first generation and then my daughter, the millennials are second generation.

How is Exciting. So give us the exact name and the time it'll be on LinkedIn Live.

Yeah, it's on, uh, 3:30 Central Time to 4:30, and you just go to CDR Assessment Group and you can go right into the event there on LinkedIn. Okay.

Yeah, yeah, assessment group on LinkedIn.

On LinkedIn.

Calm Mom Station.

So it'll be fun. I think it'll be— they're just They're amazing. They're different. They've gone through some tough struggles and they've come out, come out of it. It's— I think you'll find it interesting and hopefully fun. They're a lot of fun.

Can you give us a tidbit of like what kind of tough struggle?

Well, my, my youngest daughter who will be on, when she graduated college, she was in a terrible car wreck. She was a college athlete, was hit head on. She had to be life-flighted. She had 18 surgeries on her leg and they didn't think she would live. And now she's just at the top of her game doing great, you know. And, and the others too, you know, Katie had to— she got her MBA at Wharton by flying back and forth every other weekend from Seattle to San Francisco while she was pregnant. Then she had her first son and she only missed one weekend. So I mean, they're like— And Lavinia too. Lavinia is amazing. Her parents, you know, immigrated here from India and the things, you know, she was the only— she went through a lot growing up. She was the only brown girl in her class. And, you know, she's, she's now a gynecological oncologist. She's a surgeon. So, I mean, they're all just like super—

Sprinkle some of that woman power my way. Come on now.

Yeah, I know. I know. They're kind of— they really— and like Angela is a chief sales officer. Katie's a VP. Of, um, what is it? I can't even remember. Procurement and operations at Constellation Brands making wine, you know. So wine and spirits, wine and spirits, I should say this.

I have introduced her to my husband. My husband was a wine distributor and owned an Italian restaurant.

There you go. There you go.

Degrees, right?

Yeah. So, so it'll be fun. I mean, I just You know, we thought what a, what a fun way, something different, nothing about our, my business or anything. It's just about them and it's celebrating women. So, and of course I love them all so much, so it's really sweet.

We couldn't tell that. You're so proud of them. It's awesome.

Yeah. Yeah.

Any men in the family?

Oh yeah, I have 2 sons and a son-in-law and they're all amazing too. And of course I'm married. My husband is a chief medical officer here in Houston. So we have a lot going on there. Everybody— here's the problem. The good news is they're all doing well. The bad news is they're all doing well. So we don't get to see them that much.

Every—

honestly, they're like too driven. There comes a point sometimes when you say, hey family, can we please just get together? And then I also have— wait till you hear— I have 5 grandkids and 2 on the way.

Get out of here.

I kid you not, I've got 2 coming this summer, one in July, one in August.

So they're baking in the oven.

They're baking. And then, and then we have all this, uh, I, I think COVID has actually helped them in some ways pull it back a little bit. Does that make sense? Because they're not doing all the long commutes and so forth. So I think in some ways that's helped. And then Angela's single, so that's another dynamic, and she's in Philadelphia, so it's Trust me.

Yeah, the men listening in, this has now turned into a dating program.

No, well, no, I think she's— I think she's got it in a nice relationship.

Oh, okay. Oh yeah, I'm sorry, single men.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure.

So blushing like crazy.

Yeah. Oh yeah, I, I just wait for my daughters to see and say, oh Mom, I can't believe you said that.

Trouble.

Yep, yep, I have to be. No.

Oh my gosh, how exciting to have children and in-laws that you're proud of. You know, that's what we're talking about. That's— it's so needed in our country to have— it doesn't even have to be a blood relative, but somebody that you're proud of. No. Oh yeah. And that, you know, champions your cause. It's It's a beautiful thing. Yeah. Okay, let's talk business.

Business. Gotcha.

Yeah. Okay, tell us, let's start with— should we go past forward or forward past?

Uh, probably— well, it depends on what you want to know, and I can tell you. Okay, how's that?

The main question we love to start with, and it always starts great dialogue, is What do you see are the current challenges— challenge— I can't talk— challenges that people are facing in the leadership space now?

Okay. What I see is talent, talent, and talent. Talent as a challenge, because here's the thing, CB. I really believe, and I even said this at my— at the MECO award, and I see all the data, we need to be doing a better job with talent and leadership development. While we're investing a lot, you know, our efforts are great, we're doing a lot of terrific initiatives, they're not turning out the results that we really need to have, like, effective leadership and employee engagement where it needs to be. The numbers are actually pretty poor. So I say, first, we've got to get our talent house in order and do a better job. And that includes diversity and inclusion, a lot of things, right? And then, yeah, and then we have to look at the future technology adapting to change, the VUCA, everything else, right. But until we get this talent thing right, I think that's the primary work at hand for me. Because also, when you look at who was it, I think it was Korn Ferry said in what is it, the year 2030, there's going to be a huge talent shortage. A lot of organizations are projecting that. Right.

And now we're seeing it now.

Yeah, yeah. So, so we— and there are better ways. Here's the thing. It's not that we don't have the answer here, because we do. We need to add science to how we develop people. And until we do that, if we keep doing the same things that we've been doing historically, but we, we make them prettier, you know, we put better lipstick on them, we have better semantics, we have great competency models, we have wonderful 360s and blah, blah, blah. But we haven't changed a damn thing, really, in a lot of ways. We're still promoting a lot of the wrong people, doing a lot of the things, and repeating our mistakes. Because then, like I said, when we started CDR, Kim, my business partners, and I— a psychologist and I— in 1998, 50 to 75% of leaders were ineffective according to multiple studies across the board. Here's the sad part: that hasn't changed. So we just keep regurgitating, but making it fancier, maybe charging more billable hours. But we're not really— and I'm not trying to— I mean, we're all in this together. We're trying. It's not because of intent. And it's not because we're not trying to get it right. But until we change how we identify, recognize, and develop talent and potential, we can't change this game. We got it. We got to get off this kind of treadmill that we're on. And start on a new road. That's it.

But wait, now wait, because I'm getting really interested in this.

Sorry, I didn't mean to like—

No, you're good. But you threw out some things like that are heavy that we need to come back and visit. Like, we keep getting it wrong. What are we doing wrong?

Okay, what we do is we hire, promote, develop, give opportunities with succession based on what I would call a lot of subjective information, you know, first performance reviews, 360s, what your boss thinks, what your boss's boss thinks. And we look at who looks the part, talks the part, goes to the right school, maybe has had what we think is the right experience. But it's not working for us. Those parameters, if you will, in terms of hiring and selection and promotion are getting us the wrong things. OK. And actually, our research The research we did on women in leadership revealed this to me in a big way. What, what's the crux of the problem? And one of the things that we work on, we work on, obviously, strengths, leadership strengths to a very deep level. But we also work on leadership risk factors. And these are personality-based risks that derail effectiveness or relationships and communications. Everybody has them, but nobody knows what they are for the most part. So what's happening is, and these are ineffective and even bad behaviors, these bullying and all this other braggadocio, you know, all kinds of stuff, stealing credit, Lord knows what. But because we're not measuring them and looking at them, nobody's holding people accountable for these behaviors. And these people get promoted. So like, for example, so in our research, and I've done 2, written 2 books on this, We found that women, most women tend to be worriers, meaning we measure 11 different risks. And a worrier is someone who has a fear of failure. It shows up under stress and adversity or when somebody is pushing your buttons. So there's a lot of pressure in business and when you're in high-level leadership or mid-level. So what happens is these women largely go inside their head and analyze versus speaking up at the meeting versus pushing and asserting themselves. They want to make sure they're absolutely 100% right. So they kind of freeze in fear, if you will. So they pull themselves out of the visibility. Meanwhile, the men's risks— wait till you hear this one— egotists, upstagers, and rule breakers. So they're pushing and shouting and being visible, being, you know, history, you know, melodramatic, and they're stealing their center stage. And people think that's being courageous. Well, they're ineffective behaviors too, but they get rewarded for them, where women get held back because of theirs. Right. And here's—

it reminds me of a line that I read in Deborah Tannen's book, oh, many, many years ago. More than a line, where she points out that in a meeting, for example, a woman will make a comment. You know where I'm going with this?

Oh, yeah.

A woman will make a comment. The rest of the group, including women, which is sad, just— it's kind of like it goes in one ear and out the other. A man will immediately thereafter make the same exact comment, same wording, and everybody in the room, men and women, oh my God, that's brilliant! Oh, let's do it!

Oh my gosh.

And doesn't do a thing. I learned when I was in corporate, when that happened to me, after reading Deborah's book, I say, excuse me, that's exactly what I just said.

That's perfect. And that's— that is—

and the man will go, yeah, I'm agreeing with you. It didn't come out that you were agreeing. It came out that it was your idea.

Yeah, but you called him on it. And that's the best thing we need women to do more. But it was so funny. I was, I was talking to one of my daughters the other day.

Yes.

And I recently, in the last like 3 years, had that very experience where I'm in a meeting with All men. I come up with a suggestion, they just— and these are really, these are like executive coaches. They dismiss me and then somebody else comes up with the same idea 2 minutes later and it's wonderful. So I mean, it's like, really guys, you got to be— and I, and these are people I really admire, but they don't even realize they're doing it.

No, that's the hard part. I was in a meeting with 5 guys and the whole purpose of the meeting was to support each other in our business.

Right, right.

Uh, it was a certain process we were using, and I presented that I was getting ready to open a new company called Workplace Equity and Equality. And, um, I told them what my business plan was, my motto and everything, and they looked at me and said, yeah, but how are you going to talk about the company? I just did. Uh, yeah, but I think you need to have something that's a little bit more succinct, a little bit this. And I said, part of alerting people to what I'm talking about is talking about my experience, which I just gave you. And a poem that I wrote was very poignant, right? Yeah, but you have to be able to do that shorter and stronger. And, you know, the comments that came out And, and stop this. Uh, we want to help you in developing a business that will work because it occurs to us that you may not have that experience. Mind you, I have a very successful association for executive coaches.

Right, right. Of course you do.

Right. And I'm looking at them and I'm going, are you kidding me?

Right, right.

Now, next, one of the men presents the next week, says basically what I said about my company. Oh, this is genius. Oh, this is really— we can see you really—

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, no.

I'm thinking, was that Criticism or critique that they gave me meant to be supportive? Do they not understand what they just said? Where do I take this?

Exactly. And you know what's so sad? So back when I was in HR many, many decades ago, right, same thing would happen. We interviewed one time, I remember it's in my book, you know, this, this engineering, this engineer, she had her BS in mechanical. And she was already working at a pipeline company doing this kind of job. Plus she had an MBA. She comes in to interview. We did panel interviews back then, all men. And she was by far so much better qualified than anybody we saw, right? They picked her apart. They picked, well, what about this? And what about that? And I'm like, guys, my head's gonna explode. She was by far, you know, 'cause we're taking her from a competitor. She's great.

The most accomplished person you interviewed.

Exactly. So we ended up hiring her, but it was not without the same thing of when it's the men who maybe don't even have whatever the experience or degree or anything. Yes, they were pretty darn good. You know, women are like, you can never be— you can, you know, all these things, all these accomplishments, and it's still, well, I'm not quite sure, you know, what these— and so that's the piece.

Any other differences? It could be the weight, it could be the color, the religion, it could be whatever. And so I get what you're saying is that people are promoted for the wrong reason.

Yes. And what happens is, and there are a lot of superficial reasons and a lot of subjective reasons in our firm, and what we work with is data. So we can— so for example, those women, those very women that were worriers, had really strong strengths under what we call their character personality profiles, right? Really strong, and we go very deep. So they actually had better, if not equal or better profiles and strengths rather than the men. But because those risks made them get quiet. Now, the other piece is, just so you know, we also studied corporate executive women and CEO women. Okay. And both of those groups, the CEO women Their risks were identical to the men's. So they didn't put up with anything. They just fought their way through, right? And the women, the corporate executive women, were upstagers, at least, so they wouldn't go quiet. They'd be able to fight back or argue back, push for resources. So, but the, but the vast majority of women are worriers. And, you know, those women we went back to over years, they never got out of middle management. They stayed where they were.

And you know what, that's such a shame because in my view— now I haven't done the research you've done— but if women warriors were at the top, get this what I'm gonna say, the response or the issue of COVID taking down so many companies, I believe, would not have happened.

Yeah.

We would have had a Absolutely. Not specifically for COVID, but when I hear about companies that went under because they did not worry, they did not have a backup plan for the success of their company, that's a woman's trait from what you're saying.

Well, to some degree, that's, that's part of it. I do think that way they're going to be thinking different circumstances. We also have people who are good at contingency planning under their strengths. So they're always looking out for what could go wrong. A lot of engineers have those characteristics too, men and women. So it's kind of a mix. But you're— I think what you do get though, we know, for example, though, 360s of women leaders are always higher. When you have more women at the top, companies perform better. When you have more minorities at the top, companies perform better. So, but the problem is, is people are getting— what we're working on now, we see so many women and minorities, diverse folks, are getting held back in their 20s and 30s because of the risks. Because here's the other thing, I don't know if you saw it, but we look at if a man and a woman has the same risk, she's judged more harshly. Oh, of course. So if she's an egotist, if she's an egotist and he's an egotist, she's a bitch and he's just, he's on his game. If she's a worrier, oh, she's a— she has no, she has no courage. He's a thoughtful decision-maker, right? So that's what happens is they, they pit— so they pigeonhole or stymie people early in their careers and don't really get to see how they can shine. So what we're saying is, you know, we have these tools. There's other companies that have some of them too. There's just a few. There's not many out there that do the depth that we have, but there's a couple of companies, right? So if you don't measure it, you don't know what you're— you're missing all this talent that's at these lower levels that got stymied because of that.

Yeah, you know, I was looking for a piece of paper, my cheat sheet here, but I can't find it off the top of my hands. But I will tell you that I just worked with Elena Love. She's part of the Workplace Equity and Equality company that I have.

Okay, good.

She did something— God, I wish I could find it. She did something called the Passion Profile, which she has developed, and it looks at your strengths in terms of your archetype. Now, I happen to be— and I'm sure I'm going to get the sequence wrong, but the information right— is I am a builder-conceiver-transformer. And my husband, which means that Basically means I take no prisoners, right?

Right.

My husband is constantly teasing me that I'm a what-if person.

Mm-hmm.

Now, if I wasn't a what-if person with those heavy archetypes, I would be incredibly dangerous, right?

Right.

Because it's like, as she likes to say, I'm the kind of just-do-it person.

Right.

Jump first and figure out where I will land, which is more of a man's trait. So it's what I'm getting at is my 3 architects are very masculine.

Right. As are mine. I would say I haven't been through that. But in our assessments, you know, I'm a take charge go getter.

Exactly.

But I was in sports as a kid, you know, I, and I was a family of 4 girls and then a boy. So my dad was a union— was a union guy, you know, negotiator. He was a union negotiator. So, you know, that was my upbringing. So there was no— we were as assertive. And I'm from Philadelphia, that too.

Oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah. Okay. I knew there was a vibe that you gave off when I first met you.

Yeah.

Who is this power woman walking in the door?

So lifelong Philadelphia Eagles fan. So you, you know, the mild— not the mild manner.

Oh my gosh. And so what I want to get at is that what I was talking about when I was telling the story about my type, and how my husband likes to see me, is that this is the problem that we see often, in my opinion, in the C-suite, where men just want to automatically put you in, oh, you got a fuzzy hat. When in fact, we are power players, right? But the power player part of us doesn't get through. It's kind of like they put this layer of cement. Well, that part, you know, they're not as comfortable where the grass grows on cement. So the only part that they're letting come through is the grass that seems fuzzy to them.

Well, and when it comes to the glass ceiling, it's true. And this may not be popular to say either. You're right. They don't want the champions, the real visionaries, all these high— a lot of the— unfortunately, sometimes women that get promoted are the ones who are amiable, the ones who won't rock the boat, the ones who are more administrative superwomen than they are strategic thinkers and go-getters and change agents. You're a change agent. I'm a change agent. That makes some of the men's world uncomfortable at times. And it shouldn't by now. I'm like, I'm amazed that it's—

Here's the fun part. is when they need that power part of us, they come running to us. Now, I love my husband dearly, but I'll give you a really small tip. When something has to be returned to the store, guess whose job it is?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's funny.

When there's a problem with a power company, um, darling, can you call? No, you're the man, you can call. You do it so much better.

Oh, see that? Yeah, there you go. That's funny.

I'm telling this lightly, but in all seriousness, this is actually what happens in corporate America.

Yeah, no, it is. I mean, we see it all the time. I saw it on our research. And that's why I say, I know it sounds silly that people think, well, the other thing that the C-suite does that they should not do, they delegate it. They don't take ownership and responsibility. They need to own it. They need to understand it. They need to go through these deep assessments for self-awareness and roll it down too. Because they need to understand themselves first and the dynamics, their team profile, to see where their gaps are, or they're maybe lopsided, or where they have strengths together, you know. And then they can understand, you know, from a strategy standpoint, how does the talent actually fit in and how we get the right people without all these biases and subjective data points? How do we get them on board and develop them in ways that they can really shine? That's where my heart is at these days. That's what we work on, is really trying to shine a light on everyone. And especially, companies need to develop talent from within. I've worked on redeployment programs where we've actually found hidden talent in organizations. And so for one example, one company was an energy company and they were laying off on one side of the company, but they needed IT technical analysts, systems analysts. They needed energy traders and I think technicians. So we used our assessments to screen people to see if they would fit those profiles, right? And so I worked a lot with the systems analyst, and we actually were able to— and if you were successful, if you were— if you went through the assessments, were interviewed, you would go to a 12-week boot camp training. And in this case, it was at Texas Instruments, right? So, and then from there, everything successful, you'd get a promotion, a bonus, and a relocation.

Sweet.

So we plucked people out. And then I, a year later, I did a, I wrote an article for Training Magazine, Technical Training Magazine. And what we learned was this instructor at Texas Instruments said it was the best class he'd ever had, even better than people with computer science degrees. Wait, and then I went back and interviewed some of the participants. One lady was a secretary out of Salt Lake City. She was a single parent. She never got to go to college. You know how life happens, right? And she was gifted at this. She was hardwired to do it. So she gets it. She's successful. And I reached out to her. This was some years ago. So I reached out to her about 3 years ago. She's now an executive at a Boston IT consulting firm. She said, Nancy, I would have never known. She said, you just kind of rescued my son and I because I would have never known that I could do this. You know, so for me, that's what we can change. The other thing, one other point on that. As favors to colleagues and customers, I coach about 2 college kids a year, right, do their assessments and help them get on the right track. Every one of them in these 22 years, right, every one of them without fail has been heading in the wrong major. And usually they don't know what gifts they have. They undersee what they have. So they're going into these generic, nonproductive degrees. I'm just saying that they're not really going to help them get a great job. Do you know what I mean? And they underplay— many of them have engineering STEM capability and they don't have a clue. They don't have a clue. So I help redirect them. I help redirect them and say, you know, do you know you have an engineering profile? Well, no, I just thought I'd go in business because I'm pretty— I like to sell stuff. I'm like, well, you can always go back and get your MBA, but it's hard to go back and get an engineering degree. And since you're gifted this way, why don't you give it? And so we talk about it and I help them and I help them with economics. I say, Well, you can get your business degree or do the math, come out and get your engineering degree. You can make at least twice, if not 2.5 times more than a business degree.

You know what? I am doing a collaboratorium in June under my diversity work. And one of the tracks is seeding talent. Oh, I want you to come and talk about your work. Sure. Because I just heard— this is amazing— that the work that you're doing to uncover hidden talent in organizations can be extraordinarily helpful, uh, in the diversity platform.

Absolutely.

And you say, I can't find talent.

It might be right inside. Your janitor. They could be— seriously, we had people like that in this class that were amazingly successful and better than people with the degrees. So it really is— we measure because our assessments were originally developed for selection screening. We know, and all these different jobs have been measured. We know what the IT analyst— we know what a nurse looks like. We know, you name the job, it's been studied, and we can pinpoint the cutoff scores to get the right candidates in to be successful. In fact, I'm, you know, with our— this other program we have, I'm doing now, we do career action planning and all this kind of stuff, how to, how to understand from a personality and motivational standpoint where you fit best. And I'm now doing a— I just did one, but I have to redo it on, are you a STEM candidate? You know, sciences, technology, engineering, and math. Because so many of these young people are. Or even the other group we work with, near and dear to my heart, is we work with returning veterans. You know, into going into careers. So that's another place, because interestingly, in our research too, there's something we measure called career focus. And if you have a low score, it means you don't know what you want to be when you grow up, you're career ambivalent. Problem is that feeling stays with you, that trait. So you really have to get clear on what you're good at and what you love, those 2 things.

Absolutely.

So we help them to do that. But we found 55% of the veterans had a low score in this. So what that means is they go in the military because they don't know what they want to do. But unfortunately, when they come out, they don't know what they want to do. So, so we're helping them. In fact, you know, we've worked with about, I think, 6 different career veterans organizations. And we're, we're in meetings right now with Wounded Warriors. So we're excited about that work.

So I have another space for you, which I'm working on. It's working with athletes. That once they go through their career in sports—

Oh yeah, yeah, exactly.

I am working in that space right now.

Oh, excellent.

Love to bring you in there.

Yeah, no, no, and I would love to. And, you know, and we've worked with a lot of MBA students, we work at universities. I mean, this is— but it's really become clear to me, the earlier we can get to people to help them— I've just talked with one of our longtime coaches. And in fact, her brother was a big football star and all the rest. But, you know, and she's going to go to— there's a local high school where her daughter teaches, because we can do like seniors and above. I don't like to go any younger than that to make sure they're going in the right direction. But young college is ideal. MBA is ideal. You just want to get it right, because I could fill like this whole floor. Let's say if I could fill it, if I could fit 100 MBA students from the finest school, right? you know, whatever you call the finest schools— Stanford, Harvard, whoever, right? And we might have a VP of business development open, and then maybe they have some experience too. But of that 100, there might only be 10 or 15 who would be well-suited, really a good fit for that role. How do you figure that out? You can't figure it out by interviews. They don't work. Because sometimes the people who aren't the best candidates when you interview them are the best performing and you miss them. And the people who interview best come in and you're like, who is this person? So yeah, anyway, so it's, it's, you know, here's something I heard last night.

You know, I have 2 Clubhouses. And one we talked about on Wednesday, leadership challenges, and on Saturday, we talked about executive coaching things. Last night, there was a special that I did with Anna Malikian. Yeah, that was so good.

Yeah, she's delightful.

Wonderful. But one of the people that was on is a new member in ACEC, and he just got his PhD in OD. And I think it was him who made this statement that in his research, that they found that— oh, it was a report that was put out either by Deloitte or McKinsey. Uh-huh. That this is ironic to what we believe in. Most successful entrepreneurs start after the age of 40.

Not surprised.

I was surprised when I heard that because we're stuck in the mindset of the entrepreneurs of You know, the Bill Gates and all those guys are young.

But yeah, no, no. But I think I can get that from the sense of a lot of people that I know. And I'm one of those who started post-40 kind of thing, you know.

Yeah.

So I think I get it because we were in corporate life or doing whatever we were doing. And then finally, you know, and I took a couple of steps before I actually really landed firm here, you know, back and forth, like I'd put a toe in consulting and then go back to corporate.

Me too. I did the same thing.

Because you miss all the people.

Female trait or what?

I guess. Yeah, it's that having all— having that great community around you, you know, and then to be like on your own, you're like, where is everybody?

You know?

Yes, yes. And, and, you know, it, it's so different now. And I'm sure you're the same way I am. I couldn't be happier. I, I mean, oh my gosh, I can't even imagine me staying in corporate But I know I wouldn't have been able to do all this. So for me, I'm blessed. I'm so fortunate. And, you know, I found my way and I want to help other people find their way because it's so exciting when you love your work and you love the people you get to interact with and, and you know, you're doing the right thing. You know, you're in your— And that you're surrounded by a team. That has these great gifts that you don't have, you know, and just compliment.

Speak about great team, you have one.

Oh yeah, God, they are great.

They're amazing.

We're small, but so— I mean, honestly, they're just terrific. I couldn't be—

How did you— so let's just change it up a little bit. Okay, how did you— because you are so So exciting. I didn't know all this.

It's that Philadelphia vibe, right? No, I've been gone from Philadelphia for longer, much longer than I was there. So let's just forget that.

Philadelphia and the Bronx combined together.

Yeah, there you go.

How do you find such great colleagues to work with? Because I can tell you, you've got this protection bracket going on.

Well, I'll tell you, I— part of it was luck, I have to say. But I do assess. I never would even— I won't even interview somebody without looking at assessments. And I just go boom, boom, boom. So that's one thing. And I— and part of it is luck, right time, right place. You know, my— I had my business in Tulsa for 17 years and then had to move to Houston like 7 years ago because my husband had to relocate. I was commuting back and forth for a while, but that got old. So I had to hire a whole new staff here in Houston.

Wow.

And went through a couple of non-fits or things that didn't work out quite as well. But honestly, with the— like, it kind of worked out in an interesting way. I got a really strong candidate because I was at first offering job share. I wanted to offer flexibility. Here was my, my thing was I knew there were women out there who could just kick butt and get it done, but a lot of them didn't want to work full-time. So I wanted to order I want to be flexible, and they figured out the hours they worked. You know, for me, that was my game plan to get the best talent I could. Because there's some people, you know, with children, whatever. And that's way before COVID And it worked. And I ended up getting Christine first. And she just, I mean, she's, she's way capable beyond working for my company. She's run some very big organizations. But she really, I think she started to love the work we do. And we just found some really good people and we grab onto them and, and it's, everybody's really nice and cares for each other. So it's kind of like almost like a family. And we're, we're so mission-driven. We know, we know, we feel we're going to change the world. So it's kind of—

Well, maybe that's the secret is, is hiring people who believe in your mission. I think so.

And, and the other thing we have, and it's just like, you know, I belong to a group called the Alex Hill Group. You probably know that. Alexa, Barb's in there and so forth. One of the criteria, it's just like my company. You gotta be really nice too. You have to be kind, none of this cutthroat. You know, we care, we look out for each other. So I think there's that caring and genuineness and then mission, boom. If you can get those 2 things, you know, and especially we're small. So that's easy. It's an easier get than, you know, to replicate that in large. Larger businesses.

Yeah.

But, but something to be said for teams that really develop how you care about. So you have pockets in a big culture, right? If you can develop those teams, obviously, of people who really care and have a nice bond and mission. And I think, you know, and I think companies, no matter what they're doing, they've got to find what is the goodness that they're doing. And like, for example, for me, I feel like we did, we've done a lot of work, you know, over the years in energy. And I came from an energy background, right? I worked at a Shipyard, a coal mine, and pipeline operations. So I was, I was in what I anyway, and I think in term, I think one thing that I see in today's world, I always have felt that the energy industry does not sell the good they do in the world the way they should. They don't communicate that well. But what I also know about energy executives that I've worked with in these different companies, guess what their highest risk is? detached. So under stress, they don't communicate, they pull back. So because, for example, when you think about just it with oil and refining and chemical, right, nearly everything in this office is made by one of those products. So they really do a lot of good in the world, just like having clean water and running water, you know, except, you know, so I just think Finding sometimes— who is it? I think Patrick Lencioni does the best job at helping people. I love The Advantage, that book. If you haven't read that book, buy that book. What I love is how he helps companies clarify their core values. And that's like their mission too. What do we really care about? And what are we willing to do for it? Like one of, one of the things I don't— do you recall in one of his books he put, I think it was The Advantage, Instead of saying we should all have integrity, because integrity means about a million different things to a million different people, very— he said, we'll all mop floors if we need to. Yeah, there you go. We're willing to roll up our sleeves and get it done.

Right, right.

That's the other thing. The other thing is, not only are everybody charming and nice, everybody's got to want to work their butts off. We work. So I hire women who are driven. Who are self-motivated, who love to work. I mean, I love to work, so they love to work too. Because if you get somebody in that doesn't love to work, if you get somebody who's, you know, playing video games or something like that, they don't fit our culture.

Yes, absolutely. I agree. So, okay, now what I want to talk about now is what— once you develop, once people go through your program, Right. Companies go through your program. What's next for them that helps leaders?

Yeah, so it really depends. Each individual leader is different, as you know, with coaching. In our case, though, because we fast forward, we front load the information. Some executives don't need a lot of coaching after that, or leaders. Some will. So you, so you have to customize then that learning, the action plans based on each individual. So what I propose is companies need to switch from these like programs that everybody goes through the Same thing. No, no more of that. It's micro to macro. What it's about— the person, and then we move it outward based on what their needs are and what's best for them. And that harmonizes with business goals too. But until we start dealing with people as individuals, we're never going to get it right. And that's what we do. Yeah.

But is it too— is it too big a task for a company like I don't know, Ford Motor Company to deal with people based on individuality?

No, not at all. In fact, that's where they're missing out. And now with technology, right? So there's 3 things I give every month. I give a talk on repositioning talent development for the future, right? And in there, there's 3 things companies need to really do with learning. They need to democratize it top down, not just— no more just for the C-suite, not for the, you know, And then, or top leaders. And then they need to personalize it. And then they need to digitize it. They're the 3 keys: personalize, democratize, and digitize. Now, with technology, it's, it's possible. And actually, we've done— last year, we just launched a new product based on a client request, where we now offer coaching with an avatar. And it debriefs their assessments in full and works on— helps them build their action plans. And it's wild. People love it.

Wait a second.

Yes.

I just saw— what were we watching over the weekend? Oh, that, uh, Minutes or something with the robots?

No, no, it's not like that. This, this is, this is, uh—

I can imagine robotic coaches coming in.

No, no, no, these are humanoid avatars. So they look like they could even take a picture of me and have me coach, but I didn't want them to take my picture. But, but I am in some videos throughout. But what it is, it's really fascinating. And they, they can actually debrief. We've written the algorithms based on all these different scoring configurations where they're going to go, CB, let's review your assessment results. And they explain what each piece is, how, and then they, they give you developmental suggestions. It's really cool. We have clients using it now. And ideally, like I say, it's for not to replace senior high-level leadership In-person coaching, in-person coaching is always the best. But there's 75% of employees who aren't being assessed in any deep way or coached. This gives them the opportunity, and those young people, to get their careers on the right path. And honestly, it was the U.S. Army Civilian University asked us to do this some years ago, you know, and I said to her, it was Leslie McDade Morrison, and she was a, she's a PhD Certified Executive Coach with us. She had certified with us when she was the CLO at the Pentagon. And she said, Nancy, we love your assessments. But we have like 10,000 people who really need this feedback and this level of self-awareness. She said, could you do something multimedia or avatar or something? And I said to her, of course, I have no technology background, right? And I said, well, yeah, I think, I think we can. Let me, let me get to work on that. So now just—

I like that. Okay. I'm gonna get to work on that. Yes, I love that.

And then I moved in between. There was a lot going on. But we got it done last year. We're so excited. We finished the beta testing. We're working with clients. The one thing about it, when you asked about Ford, well, it used to be when we would do client projects for leadership coaching, even if they're Hypos, you know, we might be able to do 55, 60 leaders at a time with live coaches, right? Yeah, roughly each time you go through a phase. Well, now I can do 10, 10,000, 20,000, 200,000. So I can cover Ford Motor Company because it's scalable, it's technology, it's available 24/7, and each person can go back to it anytime they want to, and they can keep building on their action plans. And we have—

Not done in groups. It's not—

no, no, it's individual. And guess what? It is so deep, the algorithms, no 2 are the same. No 2 are the same. That's how deep it is. It's not true AI in the sense of Tesla. It's not like that. It's not like— but it is to the employee. It feels like AI because it—

So let me get a picture of this.

Yeah.

Employee goes into a booth or their office. They dial up this avatar. They get input as a result of their assessment. And then the avatar says, here's some key next steps. The employee goes and does them. Does those steps, and then how does the employee then input the fact that they've done the steps into the avatar? And then the avatar, how does the avatar evaluate it? Okay.

What our goal is, it's a little different than what your— our goal is to enhance self-awareness until so that people can drive their careers and educations in the best direction. And so that they can discover, oh, I'm talented, I can do this or whatever, right? Or to know what the risks are so they don't derail. We help the women and others so they don't derail. So ours is about— so like, you go and you take the assessments online first. That's about 45 minutes to finish the assessments. Then you get access to go into the system, into the coaching platform, and you will be able to pick your own avatar. If you don't like them, you can change them.

Okay.

And then you go in and then you start to— you can— you download what it has. You have to go in sequence. first time, you download your character report. That one is so detailed, you get a 40-minute roughly debrief with just on that one with your avatar going over your results and helping you understand it. Then you do your risk assessment, is about 20-25 minutes, and same with drivers and rewards, right?

So the avatar is giving you this information. Can you ask the avatar questions?

No, it is not. That's where I say it is not, it's not two-way. So our only way to give feedback with our assessments to help with self-awareness is 1-to-1 coaching, which is our norm. And that's about a 2.5 to 3-hour debrief with those assessments. Or we do group debriefs where we take a group and just do a character, come back later and do a risk. That's about a 2 to 3-hour session, but it's not personalized, right? Because you're in a group. In this way, it's personalized, but it's not 2-way.

OK.

I've had coaches— in fact, I have coaches that, you know, would say to me when when we were doing the beta testing. But Nancy, I don't like it because it's not personal. You know, it's not— you're not having this two-way and they need human touch. And I said, you know what, I absolutely agree with you, but there is no way we're going to reach the masses if we think we're going to do live coaching. I've been at this too long, and in my lifetime, without technology, we can't reach the people who need it most. So I'm willing to go with technology. But the good news is— wait till you hear this, you're gonna, you're gonna laugh— We have people coming back giving us video testimonials Saying they felt really safe. It was so safe because, because the avatar isn't judgmental.

Yes.

You can take— and we're really, uh, direct with our feedback. Our language is pretty stark in terms of being very clear. So when they get this feedback, you know, I've had people say, I can digest it without getting emotional, and I can go back, and I don't feel like there's somebody on this other side trying to think things about me. So they feel it's really objective. They like that. And the other thing I was concerned about, because it's long, right? We have 40, 20, 20, plus the action planning modules. So we had professors telling us, well, the attention span on technology is only about 10, 20 minutes, 20 at the most, usually about 10 minutes. But we defied that through our beta testing. You know why? Because it's all about them. This thing will say, honestly, CB, they'll say, well, hi, CB, let's go over your I mean, it's personalized. It's not, let's look at your score here, CB, at this. Let's talk about this a minute. So it's actually, you're getting a debrief. You really are. You do miss the questioning. Now we offer what we do—

You can go back and replay.

Oh yeah, as many times. And we offer with our certified coaches for people to have live coaching afterwards. So if they want to, a lot of people do need some coaching. So we're offering like kind of a discount if they just want 3 sessions and then normal fees if they want more than that. So it's not— here's my thing. It is an opportunity for coaches that coach at the top to bring coaching to the whole organization, right? Because before, we could only deal with the top. And, and until it was kind of right after MECO that fall of, uh, that I really got immersed in this, my book was coming out and I was in the middle of developing this product that I, I mean, I really shift my focus. I have to tell you the truth. Where I always focused on the top of the house executive leader coaching, where I've realized we've got to develop all the talent, you know. So I've done a lot more research too. I mean, I've done a lot of homework, not only developing this but looking into where's everything going. And then coincidentally, when we're doing our beta testing, getting ready to launch, you know, then we had COVID hit. So here we were. But you know, this is virtual. You can do it. And you can do it on your phone, you can do it on a computer, on a Mac, but you can go back to it anytime. The first time you have to go through in order though, right? In sequence. After that, you can go back to any section you want to. And, and so I have clients say to me, well, how, how long will people have access? I said, well, so long as we're in business, they have access. So help us stay in business, right?

I love that line. Oh my gosh. That's, that's, by the way, that's a masculine line.

So yeah, and I'll tell you the truth though, you know, I've been an entrepreneur for a long time. This is the most exciting thing I've ever done, the most exciting thing. So it's just to be able to reach so many people in a different way that really need it, I'm just like— because studies show people just aren't self-aware, so, uh, not naturally.

So Nancy, I need to ask you a personal question, and you can feel I'm a little—

I'm a little bit of an open book, so we'll see.

Well, you may not be that open, but okay. So here's my question. You had a wonderful vision, a wonderful idea, and you worked your way up towards being able to configure and create an avatar, right?

System. It's a system.

Yeah. What do people do whose creativity starts at an avatar? How do they raise the funds to be able to afford the talent to bring something to life?

How do they raise funds like what I did?

To do what you did.

To do that kind of business model? Um, well, um, you, you find investors. This is the first time in my life I've ever gone out and found investors. But, uh, and we saved a lot of money. I, I put personal— my retirement money is in your avatar. Use the avatar. So, so, you know, that kind of thing.

You—

the other thing that happened, it's kind of like your husband. My husband totally believed in me, and Christine too. They knew this product. I've been working with a number of venture firms and all this. This idea, I had it mapped out. I had it ready to go and we got delayed because of moving and new, new staff and all this other stuff. But my husband's like, Nancy, you need to get that avatar thing done. You need to get it done. So, and the funniest thing was he actually took it right here, not a couple of months ago. And he took it at his office because he wanted to see what, how, what it was like. Right. And he took the character at his office and then he came home and he was taking the other— I could hear it. I could hear the avatar. So I walked in, I said, oh, can I listen? He goes, no, leave. I'm— and I thought, well, that's kind of funny, Bill. I kind of wrote that, you know, but that's okay. But he wanted privacy as he was listening to his coaching self.

Don't you love it? So what I love that I heard is that you are a woman who are at, at the top of your game, and you wanted to expand that, and you went out and bootlegged—

Oh yeah.

The support that you needed, and you invested in yourself dollar-wise. You took the risk, right?

Right, personally. Like, I got the technology done and then investors have come on board to help us grow it.

So how did you get the technology done? Is that— was that through your own?

Oh no, you know, we did your typical— I had the vision of what I needed done, how I wanted it done. Like, I could see it, but I had no clue how to get it done, right? I mean, I knew, you know, we had some ideas and we were testing out different things, but So we went out for RFPs. We carefully found different computer companies, software companies, and we've got our software company that does all our assessments and so forth. So we did the RFP process and really carefully screened people and that sort of thing. Christine was fabulous. She was the project manager. I mean, I couldn't have done it without Christine. And now, so we formed CDR Companies just this year. We pulled in the 2 different companies. And now Christine, through her work, is part owner too. So I'm really proud to have brought her on as owner. And I still have Kim Leverage, who's an IO psychologist. She was my original partner. She's still a partner. And then we have 3 new partners who have—

Wonderful.

I didn't go out big, you know, for fundraising. So we're really trying to grow organically. I think we could go out for more rounds if we felt like we really needed to. But I'm hoping through sales, and we're starting to get some, some good things going. And I hired my— here we are, 23 years, and I've, you know, hired a couple of salespeople. It's been really, you know, it's been great. So, um, you know, it's a whole— it's so funny. I, at this, like I said, I'm, I'm 62 now, right? And I think, gosh, you know, like you said, I waited a while to get this one. It is the most exciting thing I've done. But my husband also said to me at one point, I'm like, he goes, well, you know, Colonel Sanders didn't make it till he was 67. He didn't do KFC. So, and, and, you know, it's so funny. I know I have 5 grandkids and 2 on the way, and I don't get to see them as much because everybody's spread around. But, but I do love this work, and I feel like I can help so many people.

So, um, I do too. Yeah. We just went We ran out of time. Oh, and so this has just been a delight. And when you come back on to, to talk to the members of ACEC on Saturday morning, I want you to include the story of how you got from there to here financially.

Okay. Yeah.

I hear often, woe is me, I just can't afford to do it. And that's— I hear that more from women Than I do for men.

Yeah. Oh, you can do it.

I mean, let's talk turkey.

Yeah.

Yep.

You can do it. And actually, our financial investment guy helped me with a vehicle that we could get it done easier than I thought. So I didn't even— but I had to keep digging at everybody. You know what?

Is your financial investor guy looking for more business?

He's great. He's, he's the best we've had. You know, he's really quite good.

So yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, listen everybody, it's been my genuine pleasure to have Nancy on the show today. I had, you know, I've known Nancy for 2 years. I had no clue, none. Shame on me for the wealth of information and her willingness to share. and her— the depth of her work and how it will make an incredible difference, especially to those who are trying to figure out what they want to do and they believe they can't do it, or even those who can't figure out the general scheme of things in terms of income generation and who sit there and think It's for other people. It's not for me. This is very serious work that Nancy is doing. And so please reach out to her. If you're a coach, sign up for her training. You want to be able to spread this throughout the world and do some really intentional work. So this is CB ending on a serious note today. And you know, I switch it up. So with that, I would love for you to go— here's my challenge for you for this week— go and see what else you can do besides what you're doing. This is CB Bowman Live, and remember, Thursday we're taking a vacation, but we'll be back on Monday, and next Thursday a surprise show. And remember to go to the acec-conference.org website, and you'll be able to get a discount on our 4-day program that's coming up. So look forward to seeing you then. Have a great week, and thank you so much, Nancy.

Thank you, CB. Enjoyed it.