Challenges of the C-Suite with Dr Sharon Melnick, Episode 9w

Hello, Sharon. So audience, you know technology, it never works when you want it to work. So you probably will only hear my voice because for some reason I'm frozen. Melnick, and welcome, welcome to CB Bowman Live. And this today, you know, on Thursdays we talk about workplace equality and equity, and we have the perfect guest to talk about it. So get your notebooks out and let's rock it out. Sharon, welcome!

So glad to be here with you, CB. I'm a fan.

Thank you. Thank you. So first, tell us about yourself.

Tell me about myself. Well, I'm a business psychologist, I guess, in the world. I'm a clinical psychologist by training. And I feel like I'm really here to help people make the contribution that they've been put here to make. And in my early years, I did 10 years of research at Harvard Medical School, and it was on intergenerational issues. It was about what you bring with you from your own experiences in childhood into your parenting in the next generation. And I just wanted to study how do you avoid repeating the mistakes of your own parents?

Yes.

And what's interesting about it is that I learned a lot about where that negative voice comes from, especially in working with women leaders. kind of how it develops. And I also learned— I'm now kind of appreciating connecting the dots in retrospect— that I really learned what it was like if, in that case, if you were a child and you don't feel seen, you don't feel heard, you don't feel like you can make the impact that you want to make. And I think that that's how a lot of people feel in the workplace. So, you know, that's one thing I'm kind of devoting myself toward especially even more focused on women these days. But it's for anyone who is underrepresented in the workplace who doesn't feel seen, doesn't feel heard, doesn't feel like they can make the impact that they are here to make. And so that's why what I'm kind of doing in the world— and I think we share a passion around this, broadly speaking— is helping multicultural women who are really smart but stuck get a next-level opportunity and working with senior women executives to help them be that change agent and help them to create a more inclusive culture in their organization. So it's interesting that kind of from a psychological point of view, I know how to help a person kind of break, overcome that feeling. And I think the full solution, of course, and obviously what you do in the world here and on this show is organizations and stewards of the culture and leaders and every person within our society, community, and company kind of have to create places where we all feel that we belong, we can all thrive, we can all bring our full talents. And also, what I'm working with women leaders about is that we also each have to do our part to be ready to use the power that we do have to create change in any interaction.

Oh my God, I think I can end the show now because you answered all my questions.

Oh, well, let's get into it.

OK, so one of the things— let's go back to the intergenerational issues that you studied, because I want to— first of all, I know that you are very interested and supportive of the multicultural, multirace concerns that the United States is facing now, not only concerns but actual activity. And so I want to ask you a delicate question on how do you feel the intergenerational issues that you studied affect people of color?

Yeah, well, you know, we understand that trauma is passed down, you know, like literally through our biology as well as in social interactions. And so I think we're just— it's It's not as if it hasn't been going on for thousands of years, but I think that in the wake of the murder of George Floyd last year, that there was just an increased awareness and a kind of a reckoning. And so I just see that there's more awareness of the trauma that we carry in our bodies. You know, we've all been socialized in terms of race. Everybody, I mean, just as a human being. But the identity that you have, my understanding is that it affects like what your experience is of racism. And so I think it's trauma. And, you know, I did study that in those intergenerational issues. So I think that this is, you know, each one of us has to kind of heal from the trauma that we've experienced, whatever role that we've played in it. And, you know, one of the best ways to move forward from trauma is to, you know, feel like you can have more control over at least your micro experience, feel like you can have control over changing an environment that was traumatizing. for you. And, you know, I want to be a part of that solution.

I know you do. And you have— and I thank you publicly. You've reached out to me to see what role that you could play in the work that I'm doing. And I'm so delighted to have somebody of your knowledge be interested in it, you know. And so that's why I want to dive a little bit deeper in this. The whole concept of trauma. Let's talk about that. What is— are you seeing trauma on both sides, on the Black side or people of color, as well as on the white side?

Yeah, I think, I think it, it goes against our fundamental nature as humans to, you know, when there's, when there's inequality, when people are being treated badly and disrespectfully. I mean, there is the kind of biological side of us, I guess you could say, where we're all sort of in it trying to get our own resources and, you know, kind of getting for ourselves. So I guess you could say that's also fundamental human nature. But, you know, anyone who is in touch with their feelings as a human being You know, it's painful. I mean, it's deeply painful to witness that inequality and people being treated badly or potential being squandered. So I think everybody is affected, but we're affected in different ways. And let me maybe say a little bit more about that. So, I mean, it's obvious if your fundamental rights have been taken away as a Black person to ownership, to sovereignty, over your decision-making, to having access, you know, to wealth earning, to take care of yourself. I mean, just in every way. It's obvious how that's traumatizing. I mean, to not be able to care for your own kind of wellbeing and welfare. And one thing that I have come to understand more over the last few years, and particularly within the last year, is, how racism also affects white people or affects people who are kind of complacently going along with the system. And maybe you want me to talk a little bit more about like how I tried to reach out and have conversations with white women during last year and tell you a little bit about what I learned about how it affects us in this conversation.

Yeah, that's fine. But before we get there is— so I want to talk about how do you break the cycle of trauma, be it— even though I think people of color don't see right now that white people are going through trauma. This week on television, there were a couple of sitcoms about white people and how they're going through trauma. And but, you know, I think as a race, we don't see it in the same trauma that we experienced it.

Of course, it's not the same trauma.

And, and so is there this opportunity to connect on this uneven trauma, you know, issues and feelings? I mean, can we connect or are we going to always see it as separate?

Yeah, well, I hope not. I mean, the experiences that we've had as a white person and as a, let's just say, a Black person living— I'll talk for America because I'm more familiar maybe with our history here— is, I mean, we have totally different experiences. And the degree of a lack of control and the degree of projections onto us is clearly different. What I'm saying though is that everyone has feelings, everyone is feelingful, and everyone has deep-seated emotions about it from whatever their experience is. And I think the opportunity that we do have is to connect on that human level. I mean, it's like when you— and this is why it's so important to have proximity and friends and close conversations and transparent communications in the workplace or our communities because it's really hard to, um, you know, have ill will towards someone whose story you know. And when you see their humanity and, you know, what they want as a human being or how they've been pained, and there are so many more similarities that we have just as human beings, you know, trying to, um, have a good life or wanting to care for, uh, our children or having a light and a potential inside of us that we want to, you know, bring as a unique contribution. I think that there's, you know, a lot of things to connect on, obviously, but I don't, you know, and then, I mean, you know, there's been all kinds of things like within the, you know, the women's movement where, you know, we've sort of played the pain Olympics, you know, and who's, you know, I'm Jewish, I'm gay, you know, I haven't always felt like I'm a person who's kind of like making the rules and in the majority. But I don't think that's particularly constructive. I think it's really just to understand people's experiences and relate on a kind of a human level. And really, like, our world has such big problems right now. And one of the reasons why I feel passionate about you know, just supporting women of color talent is we just can't afford to squander any talent. Like, I just see, you know, and I've, you know, coached many women of color who, when they first came to me, you know, they told me their stories of they're like, they're the highest producing person in the department, or they're the person who's kind of on the front lines, you know, getting the results. And they just haven't gotten credit. They've been passed over. I mean, this is relevant for women broadly. Obviously, I see these kinds of same issues. But it's really kind of blatant and can even be humiliating for some of the women of color who I've coached. So we need to create structures that are going to be able to get the best creativity and value from everyone.

So there's so many questions in that that I want to still dig deep. on how do we connect with each other when our trauma experiences have been different. But Elena is listening in, and you may not have met Elena yet, but she's a new MG100 member. Oh, I'm so looking forward to meeting you.

Great.

And a dear friend of mine. And so, oh my gosh, she has an incredible background. I did an interview with her earlier last year.

I'll check it out for sure.

Yeah, so she's writing in, in the first comment, so important to note that there is trauma on both sides of the issue. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and then her second comment is, how do whites show compassion without appearing to be performative— functionary woke? Let me spell it because my pronunciation is terrible.

P-E-R-F-O-R-M-A-T- Yeah, performative allyship. Yeah.

Yes, thank you. Thank you.

And again, and I just want to say, I'm just glad to be in this conversation with you. I feel like what we need is open, transparent conversation. But I'm not an expert in diversity, equity, and inclusion. I'm a business psychologist who knows how women leaders can be effective at creating change and getting to the next level. again, what I was saying from my early history, if I've known some things about how do you overcome a perception of you when you're boxed in, right, which is very relevant. And, you know, how do you kind of take back that power? So, you know, we could talk about that.

Yeah. Recognizing, yes, you are not an expert in D&I, but what you're saying is really important to that, you know, taking back your power is one of the things that we're dealing with. Belonging is another thing that we're dealing with. Many of us feel, you know, fortunately I'm not one of them, but tired of discussing this and don't feel like we should be the educators, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Okay.

My feeling is that we have to be the educators because now is the opportunity where white people want to know before they, you know, it was kind of like, oh, it's somebody else. And so now is our opportunity to talk openly and freely. And, you know, I think whites are asking openly and freely.

Yeah.

And so we have to have that dialogue. And you're an expert in having dialogue, not necessarily having race Black dialogue, but that's why I wanted you on the show, is to talk about it more from a psychological perspective. And, and I'm sure that the issues that we want to talk about are also mimicked in other social situations, like you have Latinx and you have the LGBTQ+ community and you have— I was just on Clubhouse the Asian community. And so it, you know, what the killing of Floyd has brought out is the lack of equity and equality in so many people.

Yes.

So many people. Yeah. And so the, the issue is opening the dialogue, creating a sense of belonging, and Hearing from people like you who could look at it from neither color, but from what happens to us psychologically, is incredibly important.

Yeah. So I think that it's important— and this is, again, I don't know, based on any theory or whatever, but just maybe from my own experience. I would say I think it's important to have same-race discussions and to have cross-race discussions.

Yes.

And we need both, and that's part of kind of the full approach. And let me say why I say that, because again, one of the early conversations that we had was in, as the conversations were, we were really becoming a lot more aware of what had been going on in terms of racism for so many years. I called together a group of other white women who were leaders in organizations. And I just— it was really to create a safe space, a brave space for us just to talk. And it was like something I needed for myself as well as I thought other people did. And we just talked about what were our earliest kind of memories around race, like what were the messages that we learned. We talked about white privilege. And I'll tell you— And where did we notice it in ourselves? Again, it was a small sample. It was, I don't know, 35, 40 people or whatever. But what I heard very consistently was— one theme that was really consistent is, I heard early messages that were very negative about Black people. And I knew in my heart that it was— and I have my own experience with this. I knew in my heart that it was wrong. And I knew that it was painful and that's not the way that I thought the world should be and I didn't believe it, but I was young and I didn't have kind of like the words. I didn't know how to argue that or present a counterpoint of view. I was growing up. And every one of us sort of had a version of that and the sense of helplessness that we felt and the sense of guilt was really— and, you know, there were people close to tears in many of the stories or in tears in many of the stories. And so I do think that it's valuable to have those spaces where you're already exhausted. Like, you don't need to be hearing all that and kind of carry that, you know what I mean, for I mean, I don't want to make it too much an us versus them, but I'm just saying, like, that for that group of women. And so I think that we need that. And we obviously need to have discussions that are cross-race or cross-experience, cross-diversity dimensions so that we really understand each other. And like I said, you know, once you really understand or just know what it's like, then you It's it's um it it's really not like humane. Like it's it's really you have to be really shut down to just like not care. You know, I mean you may not know what to do or kind of what to do as a next step, and then that's you know you can you can learn those things or be shown those things or create you know protocols and strategies within your company. But I think it's the person, and I've heard this from my. clients who are Black women, that it's really the personal relationships that they make—

Yes.

—that are the ones. And especially a personal relationship with a white man leader can really— that person, when they really connect on that human level, he can really become a huge champion. A great example of that is Joy Fitzgerald, who is the chief diversity officer at Eli Lilly. She just forged a really good personal rapport with her CEO, who's a white man. And he was just unaware a lot of this. And he got together in a 3-day, just him and— I don't know what the number is. I'm going to fudge the number. The top 20 or something of their African-American women talent. And they just talked for like 3 days. I mean—

Wow.

And then he personally, like, he made sure those women promoted. He made sure those women got sponsored. sponsored, you know, it's just, um, and we, we're just very stuck in, um, you know, just stereotypes, or we don't really know each other. And then that just reinforces the, um, the trauma of not feeling seen, of not feeling heard. And I think this is very important because I've heard from a lot of Black women that they feel betrayed by white women, and that, you know, that we white women, uh, were the earlier beneficiaries of some of the women's leadership programs, not exclusively, but let's just say in higher percentages.

And, um, let me, let me just interject there. Yeah, there is also a large contingency of Black women who feel that they've been betrayed by other Black women.

Yes. But yeah, yeah. So it's just, it's, um, it's, uh, so we, it's just, um, you know, we, we have to develop, um, a mindset of abundance and not scarcity. You know, not like, you know, there's one slot for a woman, and so if I'm there, you know, I'm gonna take it. I think there's much more of a sense, a spirit of sisterhood, uh, and sister and brotherhood, um, you know, that's very explicit, uh, now. I generally hear that.

Yeah, I agree.

You know, and, um, you know, kind of pulling, uh, one another up. And, um, so this kind of gets back a little bit to the question about performance allyship. It's like when somebody does something to kind of look good to the public, like puts a post up on social media with a blackout or something like that, like early on. And that— not that it's exclusively performative allyship, but doing something like that that are sort of the externals or the— The things that are easy and convenient to do is this idea of performative allyship versus do you speak up in the moments when someone else is doing a microaggression or has a point of view that is going to perpetuate someone else being denied?

Explain, please, microaggression.

Yeah. So these are the kind of more subtle experiences, not so subtle for the receiver, but not a kind of passing a law to deny someone access to funds or something like that. But it's more like in the interpersonal interactions where someone might say something that— I mean, there's many classic examples of this, I'm sure. could go over, but like, you know, you're so articulate, as said to a Black person.

Oh my God, I love that one.

Yes. Has a dig that, you know, that's not my general experience of, you know, a smart Black person. So it's just many, many examples like this. You know, women experience these throughout the day. People of color experience these throughout the day. And then What it does is that it causes the person who is subject to that to have to go inside and kind of deal with it and process the emotions that it brings up, effortfully think about, what should I say? Should I say anything?

Should I say something?

What should I say? Is this the right time? How will they take it? And all of that extra kind of energy drain, and a lot of the onus put on the receiver to make it a teachable moment. Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

And it's exhausting. Yeah.

And if not, if you don't make it a teachable moment, then you're carrying that around with you as excess baggage, and it just gets piled on and piled on and piled on. And Yeah.

Yeah. And I was talking just earlier this morning. I'm coaching a senior HR leader. And she's a Black woman. And she got kind of marginal— what she interpreted to be marginalized in a situation. And she was kind of full of all kinds of feelings when we started to talk together. And then we really sorted through deconstructing what happened there. And, um, but what happens is that she's got all of this, like, you know, smarts and experience and vision and passion and, you know, ability to connect. And, you know, she's so— she has so much to bring. And there she is kind of leaking her power, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

And kind of focusing on the other person and trying to figure out what's the accurate interpretation of the situation. And so there's just all of that kind of squandering of that energy and talent. And what we ended up doing together that was enormously helpful for her is that we actually reframed it. And what she initially thought was kind of a slight, like she got taken off of a project and put on something else where she had really been leading this project, it was highly visible. And she was able to, we talked through how she could see that opportunity might have happened for her and not to her. And kind of interpret differently rather than it was a slight by a senior leader who just didn't see her at all. That actually this person was kind of releasing her off of this project where she had already been highly visible, kind of gotten it to a new point, and putting her full-time on diversity, equity, and inclusion activities so that she could really— like, this was a passion. So so she could really grow this and connect with the executive committee about this, 'cause they had said this was really important. And then she felt totally like energized. Oh my God, yes! And she like totally like took the power back.

I love it.

You know what I mean? But again, she had to spend that hour, you know, kind of going through.

And thank goodness she had you to help her. dismantle that because I have been in similar situations that I didn't have a Sharon Milnek.

I'm here for you, CB.

I was going to pick up the phone and say, Sharon. And I'll tell you what, that actually happened to me. Not the same thing, but I had that same experience within MG100, right? In our Connection Now meeting whereby I was not only the only Black person in our group, I was the only woman in our group. And so, so our roles were to take turns talking about what we were doing and what we needed and to receive input. And so when my turn came, the men like, oh, you're not doing this right. Oh, this is what's happening. Oh, you don't know this. And I'm like, holy sugar. And my husband, who's white, was listening in and he said, Of course he loves me. And he said, what a bunch of jealous men. They're just, they're just jealous of your ability to zoom right into things and to build companies. And, you know, don't they understand that you know what you're doing? And I thought, thank goodness he was here to make me feel better. Right. But here's what happened. One of the guys who was just brutal on that call I actually thought about it and I thought about it and I said, gosh, this guy needs help understanding the effects that he has on people when he plays this role. So I sent him an email and I said, how can I help you with what you're doing? That was a big leap over to the other side. And he said, oh, CB, I'd love to get to talk to you and know you better. Well, we started talking. And I said to him, I just want to share with you my interpretation of what you said in the meeting. He was flabbergasted. He said, oh my God, I wasn't coming from that perspective at all. I was trying to figure out how I could support you. And I said, so your verbiage didn't come across that way. And So we talked it out. And then he started— I said, so how can I help you? And he started talking. And at the end of the call, he said, CB, I almost missed this opportunity because you are my Obi-Wan Kenobi. And I almost screwed it up. And I said, yeah, you did. We both laughed at that. But that takes a lot of energy. It takes having somebody by your side to support you and say, it's okay, they're wrong, for you to say, okay, if they're wrong, I could put that aside. And now I can reach out and listen and support. But I'll tell you, Sharon, I couldn't do it to the other men in the group. I was drained after that.

Totally, totally. And I salute you. I mean, what incredible courage. Um, and grace, you know, that, that really took on your part. But it is a good example of that personal connection, you know what I mean? That man is going to be like your advocate and, you know, for the rest of your life. I mean, and, um, and it's so, you know, I mean, it's like, you know, one person at a time. Oh my God, we have 7 billion people, you know what I mean? Yeah. So that's a lot. I totally, um, get it. But, you know, a woman in her power raises everyone around her.

I love that.

A woman in her power raises everyone around her because you set a new standard, right, in that group or that, in, you know, that relationship with that man, um, of transparency, of, you know, empathy toward other people, of how to talk to people and support them. And every Every woman in her power changes the power dynamic.

Wow.

Right? And, and every, you know, every woman in her power is, is that change agent, can be that change agent. Simply, like, simply. I mean, such a good, like, if you're listening, like, you know what I mean? Like, be her, you know what I mean? Like, because you thought it, you know, so let's You want to just deconstruct a little bit what you did there?

Mary just wrote in, who's listening. She wrote, thank you, exclamation mark, exclamation mark.

Yes, we need you. And again, it's like, it's so, you know, I'm, I'm so sorry to like have the message of like, you, you know, you need to be the one or whatever. I mean, obviously we need to change this as a culture, but, but every woman in her power can chip away, you know, at the system and that's not serving any of us really. And the more kind of little chips that we have, the sooner, you know, it can flip. So let's just go over what you did right there, right?

Yeah.

So, um, one thing that you did right is that the, the, the man's behavior, um, kind of had implicit messaging towards you that you're, you know, not good enough, don't know what you're talking about, shouldn't be taken seriously, variation on that theme.

Right. Yeah. No, that was the theme.

Yeah, that was the theme. Yeah. No subtlety there. Right. Yeah. And great example of a microaggression that was very blatant. And, but what you did, let's go through a few things. One thing you did is that you didn't internalize that projection onto you. Where you might for a moment—

For long. Right. It was for a bit, but then I came out of it. Quickly.

Yeah. Right. And that's really insightful that you note, because this is what we do. This is what happens to us, right? Is that we are treated in a certain way and we have to make sense of it. That's a human faculty. It's like we have to interpret why things are happening to us. And so that's what we do is that, and then, you know, for a lot of people, this is part of the trauma part that we were talking about, you know, of racism. of sexism is that you might start to interpret that that happened because there's something about you that you didn't know your stuff or you didn't belong there. But what I see most often is questioning yourself.

Yes.

Right? And maybe I don't, maybe I'm not working on the right— what am I doing wrong is like the first, you know, is a place that we'll go to. So that's one thing that you did right, is that, you know, maybe you had a moment where you, you know, where you internalized it, but then you were able to kind of own your own view of yourself. And it helped you that you had a loved one and an ally, right, who reminded— but he just reminded you of who you know yourself to be.

Yeah.

And if you didn't have that foundation inside of yourself, It would have been encouragement, but you wouldn't have been able to really feel that encouraged, right?

Yeah.

So that's one thing that you did, uh, right in that situation, and that came from kind of owning it so you didn't take on, uh, that projection. And the thing is, is that if a projection is being put onto you but you don't take it on, it doesn't, it doesn't stick and it doesn't go and it doesn't perpetuate. That's why when a woman owns her power, that's why when a Black woman owns her power, that's when a Black man owns his power. Right? It, it, it stops the projection from— so that's one thing. Um, another thing, uh, that you did right is, um, that you made it, uh, not just about the specific situation, but you put it in a bigger context of that man is going to be going out there and having these kind of interactions.

Right.

And so it will be really helpful for him to have education about the impact of his behavior. So it can always be really empowering to— because when you make it about you and the specifics of feeling disrespected in the moment, then you can get all kind of stuck into your personalized concerns and what it meant about you and what it means about him. And then you're all kind of mad at him and his limitations—

Right.

And kind of making it about you and how you felt and all that. And that's a person— that's your small game. But what you do is you took that small game and you made it into what's the big game here? Like, what, what's your purpose here? You know what I mean? What's the possibility kind of, of this relationship or this person going forward and interacting, you know, with lots of other people who he could be, you know, making feel this way?

Yeah.

And so you played your big game. And that's what might have enabled you to have that courage to have that conversation. And because that's usually what's motivating is you're here to make a difference and to create a culture that we'll all thrive in. So that can help you kind of get out of your own stuckness or feeling in the moment. Another thing that you did is right, is that You use the power of transparency and you shared what your experience was. You approached it neutrally with respect. You shared your own experience and you talked to him about like what the impact was on you, probably rather than going in with pointing fingers, maybe a little bit, maybe not too much. And which enabled— and you went in with kind of a neutral conversation, like to talk about kind of what happened, want to hear what your perspective was, want to share with you what my perspective was, which created a neutral space, and you held the space.

Mm-hmm.

Right? And so, I mean, those are just 3 of the many, many things that you did right in that situation. But someone who's not being seen or heard or not able to make the impact, that is a way of flipping that situation and kind of ending the trauma, taking back control, taking back that power, Because when you're in your power, you raise everyone in the situation.

I love that. Wow. I'm feeling especially good now, Sarah.

And you're a natural. And every person can do this. And every woman can do this. And every woman of color can do this. And every man of color can do this. Anybody, anybody who's not being seen can do this.

But don't you think it's harder? I mean, I feel that One of the things that gave me the power in this situation is that I already have a successful business, and I started it from scrap, and I started it from people saying, you can't, you're not going to be able to do this.

Oh, I know, that's the best motivator for you. You can do this. Uh, now it's definitely gonna happen. You watch. Yeah.

Oh my gosh. Okay, so going back to feeling seen, feeling heard. What is it that people of color can do to gain those 2 statuses of being seen, being heard? And my next question is, can you create your own sense of belonging in a space where You don't feel like you belong.

Yeah, I, I think you can. Um, so there's a few questions there. I think you can create your own sense of belonging by people who you do feel have psychological safety with, you do feel who sees you. It may not be your direct manager, but you know what I mean, to seek out other people. But I think it is a real question, uh, for anyone who's not seen or heard. Do you want to be giving your talents to that environment or that workplace. And that's soul-searching. And you may decide that it's worth it for you because what you're getting from the situation in terms of training, or maybe it's an elite organization, or maybe the projects you're doing you love or something.

So what is your personal return on investment working for this company?

Yeah. So I think that's something that you want to think about and— or not, or maybe, you know, but what you need to do is you need to draw your own line in the sand. And you need to know, like, what am I willing to tolerate and what am I not? And if it crosses that line, then that triggers a reevaluation. And if it hasn't crossed that line, then what can be really healthy is, um, is to kind of almost use that organization, like come to work on your own terms where it's like, they're paying me to like do something I love or to learn a skill or to grow connections or whatever it is. And then, you know, what you want and what the organization wants is totally aligned. But again, psychologically, it, uh, it helps to shift out of that more traumatized, not-seen state because you're deciding that you want to be there. You're saying, I'm doing this, what's in it for me, right? And this is what I can control. And, you know, and I'm choosing to do this. And then the energy of it is totally different.

I see Carolyn is on the line. Hey, Carolyn is in the house. Carolyn is part of Chief Financial Officer Leadership Council in the diversity and inclusion space, and I'm going to be moderating a panel for her, I think, next week. Next week. So I'm so glad. She's an amazing woman. Here's my thing. How do you figure out what that line in the sand is and when to draw it? And I'm asking specifically because I had to sue 2 Fortune 500 companies for race discrimination. Yeah.

Good for you. Yeah. And it's not good that you had to do it, but good for you that you did it. Yeah.

It took a heavy toll on my health as I aged. Yeah. I often think that I should have drawn that line in the sand much sooner. But due to lack of knowledge, not having my personal board of directors to say, hey, you know, they've crossed the line. So I think it's a difficult question for anyone, but particularly people of color, of knowing when to draw that line in the sand. From a psychological perspective, or from even your studies in sociology, when do you draw it? How do you figure that out?

Yeah, that's a really good question. I think we could have a coffee chat around that. I mean, I'll just maybe say some reflections. And I think obviously each person, you know what I mean, has to come up with their own answer. I would suggest that the first thing, that the first kind of approach that you would want to make is always to be impeccable for your 50%. So it's not the only thing, but it's always a starting place to make sure that if you're not being seen or heard, but at least make sure that you're being effective in the way that you're influencing, that you're aligning with other people's needs. And so we know that it's not— because I've had— I'm only saying that because I've had people who have come to me who have said, there's bias here. And I'm like, I bet there is. I mean, we know there is. But let's just sort of start off by you being really as effective as you could be, being impeccable for your 50%. And then let's see if that moves the needle or not. And I've had plenty of times where When someone has learned to be really effective at the way, you know, having x-ray vision into the minds of their decision makers and knowing how to influence, then they got a yes. And then, you know, their project was bought into and then everything changed. So—

Let's— I have to deviate there. Good. But hold that space. Because I want to share with you that, first of all, those of us that produce to the ultimate that we can, The feeling is, why do we have to produce double what somebody, somebody who's white is to raise the flag to say, hey, we're there and we're doing an incredible job. We have to be smarter, we have to be faster, etc. We shouldn't be there. So, but yeah, true. But this is a given state. So if we assume that is happening, and I know the word assume, right? So we're already giving not only 50%, but we're giving 100%, 200%. And that's part of the picture. The other part of the picture is the knowledge that— what would— who do we go to for the truth?

Yeah.

Because we're giving 200% and we're still getting the feedback that you're not doing enough, And that feedback is there for the purpose of stopping us.

Yeah.

You know, versus encouraging us, but stopping us because they feel like, oh, you've got too big a head or, you know, whatever that personal reason is. Right. Where do we go? Yeah. Very blurry.

It's a really, really good question. And in what you were saying, I think give some clues as to kind of where to draw that line. Because if you kind of, as objectively as possible, are being effective in what you're doing, as evidenced by metrics, feedback, your own personal intuition or whatever, 360s— I mean, there's lots of data about that. But if you're being effective and you're not being seen, for your potential, you know, in terms of like a next-level opportunity or a raise or those kinds of things, actually that gap between kind of the facts and what's being offered to you is information. Like, that is information that you are under the grips or facing some kind of bias.

Right.

And so that's why I said to start there, just because if Until you start there, you don't— it's not— you don't have clarity, right? What part of this might be the way that I'm approaching it, or, you know, what part of this is real? And once you are being impeccable kind of for your 50%, then you have— then you have clarity, and you know that it is something that, um, where you're bumping up against a limitation, um, in someone else.

But I think the thing is, Sharon, if people— And so I think that's where, you know, I think the thing is, if people had somebody like you on their side that they could trust to say, yeah, you're putting in 200%, it's now time to draw that line. But the issue is when you walk the halls of corporate America as a Black person, 9 out of 10 times you're walking it alone.

Yeah.

So you don't— you're not quite sure. Yeah. If you're delivering, if people are saying you're constantly not delivering, but in your, in your soul, you feel like delivering. Where is the truth? Yeah. How do you analyze that truth?

Yeah, that's real. And I think, you know, you have to talk to the people in the organization who care about whether you stay or whether you go, right, and would want to support you. And you have to ask people to understand a little bit more about the politics or the person who is kind of blocking you, just to understand, do they do this toward other people?

Yes.

Just toward you? Because it might be the case that person is just a limited leader. They do this kind of thing to everyone. And so you wouldn't want to make an assumption if it wasn't about you. I mean, not good that that company is tolerating a poor leader. that everyone is suffering under, but it's a different ask or a different issue. So I'd be— and this is hard. I mean, this is what you're talking about here just reveals the burden and the challenge of it. It's like you're being asked to trust and reach out to people and have transparent and candid kind of conversations when you don't feel that people have your back or that there's accurate, objective evaluation of you, and all the onus is on you, which is why it is so important that we have more representation in the workplace. I see that there's a lot of the Executive Leadership Council and just a lot of other organizations where I think Black leaders are coming together and really understanding the nuances and supporting each other. So it's almost like a— I don't know, like an algorithm of all this data. But I think when you feel like there's a mismatch between objectively what you're putting out and the feedback that you're getting, that's information that bias is at play. And we know especially that there's the prove-it-again bias. This is relevant for all women, and it's extremely high percentages for Black women, where, you know, a man or a white person counterpart might be evaluated based on their future potential, but you might— will likely more likely be evaluated based on your past accomplishments. And so that keeps talent.

And those past accomplishments, you have been given a limited amount of visibility and opportunities for additional knowledge and success.

That's been proven by the McKinsey report over and over again. Some things that you could do, and again, there's this, whether it's, especially if it's across difference, gender difference, racial difference, or intersectional difference, we know that people giving feedback can have that protective hesitation. Right, and not give candid feedback because they're concerned about how it's going to be taken. So again, this should be on the performance systems of your company. But until then, what you can do is you can really ask for that candid feedback. And sometimes you might even have to offer multiple choice. Is it more this? Is it more this? Or whatever. Just try to give some structure to that limited feedback giver. to try to get, you know, more candid information. And another thing that you could do is really talk much more about the contribution that you're gonna make rather than what it is that you've— like, because I think, you know, we go in there like, well, look at all these things that I've done, look at all these things that I've done, which you have to do especially in a job interview. But in some ways it can kind of reinforce that prove-it-again bias because, you know, what I hear so often from you know, my multicultural clients is like, you know, you're doing a great job, keep going. And they're like, no, I'm like, I'm like doing a job 3 levels above me.

Yeah.

And so you want to, you want to start talking about what you will do, what you're, you know, what you can do, like paint a mental movie in the mind of decision makers that so that they start to break out of the box of the perception they have of you now and start seeing you You know, at that higher level or more what you're capable of. And then, you know, when you can do that with sponsors and other people buzzing about you and offering you opportunities, it just— you need to update perception.

You know, we only have a few minutes left, but Sharon, I'm telling you, we've gotten some great questions in. And, and I also want to add to what you're saying. Because I think it takes courage to figure out where the truth lies and face that truth. So if in fact you really are not doing a good job, don't blame somebody else.

Right.

Step up to the plate and do that good job and pass that job. As you said, look at it in terms of where you want to go, not where you are or where you've been. And really try to analyze it from— pretend almost that you're somebody else. And what would you coach another person in looking at what's going on? And what are they contributing and what they're not contributing? That takes a lot of guts and a lot of— especially if you're in an environment where people are saying you're not doing anything right.

You have to bring up the hard conversation. I mean, it's It's all back to that.

We have a couple of things. Carolyn is saying, her first comment is, join CB as she moderates the CFO, that's Chief Financial Officer Leadership Council's Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion program. Create a successful diversity, equity, and inclusion program for your organization.

Great. Send me the link so I can listen in.

Okay, it's February 12th at 12 PM, and she provides the link. Um, but, you know, reach out to me on LinkedIn, wherever, and I will give you the link. Um, her next comment is, you have to find an advocate in your company. Hopefully it's your manager, head of your department. So true, so true.

And back to the personal relationships that we were talking about, and it's so hard again if you don't feel safe to be the one to try to really make that deeper connection, but just like with you, it can really pay off.

Exactly.

And as allies, because we're all allies to each other in one form or another, maybe we all have privilege, is to really be aware and make introductions and speak, say good things about other people and invite them to speak and invite them into the room and invite them to present. Um, so that we, uh, kind of share the power. And, um, you know, that, that's really— and, and ask people what they think, create a safe environment, and really like, what's your experience? Um, you know, help, help me just, you know, just that personal connect. So yeah, if your eyes are opened and your heart is open, like, you're gonna naturally as a human being, you know, want to do for others.

Give people permission. And the other thing I have to say is don't tell everybody who your allies are, because your allies really need to get confidential information to share with you about what other people are saying and thinking.

Good point.

And if you reveal, you don't give them the freedom to be able to give you that very valuable feedback. So just a word of wisdom. From somebody who's been through it. A lot of wisdom. Dr. Hannah says, I like, CB, what you shared about motivation. Personally, the most important is to believe in what we would like to achieve and be authentic. We know what we want. We see the challenges. We ask for help. We try to find the best way to follow, etc. Love it. Love it. Elena says, why is it that the first place we go is to competency when we talk about someone Black having an issue? Trust around competency is more readily given to someone who is white, something a client shared just recently.

That's true. I'm sure that's true. Yeah, I sort of say that as a general rule for every, you know, universally be impeccable for your 50%. That's just like a general, you know, guidance. But I think you're right, actually, that we would— the attribution that we would make for a Black person might be more around their competence rather than assuming that there's an, you know, environmentally a bias that's thwarting them. So thanks for bringing that to our attention.

Yeah.

And that's something that we need to be aware of. Anyone in a hiring, you know, role, manager role, a leader role. And we can all be allies to each other there.

Yeah, so we have like maybe 3 minutes left. Is there anything you would like to add? This has just been an incredible— and I know that you were nervous about coming on. You kept writing to me, what am I going to talk about? What are you going to ask me? And I said, don't worry, we're going to riff, believe me. So now I'm giving you a chance to say Is there anything you wanted to add or say or—

Well, I think if we have a next conversation on or off the air, I know we'll have off the air, but if we have it on the air, you know, I think talking about white women and Black women and, you know, women in sisterhood, I think we need to be talking real and be a united front. And I mean, brothers and sisters, but I'm just saying, I think to maybe start with those conversations there is— we just need to be united in sisterhood.

Yeah. So, OK, here's— I'm going to throw this out at you. You identify a panel, and we'll do a panel on this. OK? Hey, everyone. I just want to say we've got a minute left. This has been an incredible conversation. I'm so grateful for Sharon coming on, and I'm incredibly grateful for your comments in the chat. We've had some real power players who have written in, and it makes me feel good that Sharon and I— oh, Elena says great conversation. Carolyn says good point. I am just so happy that— talk about sisterhood— we're, we're doing that right here, and Dr. Hannah says, well done, Sharon. It was a pleasure to listen to you. Carolyn said, yes, united in sisterhood. Great conversation. Thank you both. So from Elena, okay, we're going to have to figure out how to use this system to have a panel of sisterhood. So if any of you have any great ideas or recommendations in terms of who should be on the panel, please let me know. Maybe we'll just have a Zoom thing and record it and shoot it out. In the meantime, this is CB Bowman Live Workplace Equality and Equity, and thank you so much for tuning in. Don't forget to tune in on Tuesday when we do Challenges of the C-Suite at 12 noon Mountain Time. Go with peace and success. and happiness. Bye now. Sharon, thank you so much.

Thank you. What an honor.