Challenges of the C-Suite with Ryan Berman Episode #16

Hello everyone, we're right on time today, which is unusual for us. Usually we have some technical issues. So everybody, welcome today. This is CB Bowman live presenting Challenges of the C-Suite, which you know we do on Tuesdays, and on Thursdays we do Workplace Racial Equality. So welcome everybody, and don't forget to use the chat because We have an incredible guest today. We have Ryan Bergman, and Ryan is just a rock star in media, advertising, writing, creating businesses, you name it. He's a mogul of intelligence. And we have another special little guest, his little dog.

Yeah, my little dog who is, uh, not a rock star, just not feeling very well today.

Oh, he's a rock star in his own right.

Rock star.

Yeah, yeah. Hey, Ryan, the way that we, uh, do things here is it's just kind of like sitting in your living room having a chat with some friends.

Great.

So, but this part, you have to introduce yourself. So tell us what makes you a rock star.

Yeah, that's a big bar, CB. Pretty big bar.

Uh, you know what, I am, uh, I'm a recovering ad guy.

You know, I came from the advertising industry, learned from the Mad Men people in New York City, and, um, moved to California after that thinking I was going to move here to write movies, not live one. And it's been a crazy ride ever since. Uh, I wasn't even here a month before starting my first business by accident, meaning that wasn't why I moved out here.

And 7 years later, merger with the social media and PR firm. Grew it to about 70 people. And, um, I live in San Diego, so I was literally just trying to position our agency against LA and New York. And that was the creation of writing my book called Return on Courage. And, um, it was going through that process where I realized that maybe I should fire myself and, uh, really follow my true passion, which is helping companies with their re— whatever their re might be, whether it's re-energizing people, rethinking ideas, or reinventing their tomorrow.

You said re-energizing companies with their re? That's R-E?

R-E, yeah. So if it's re-energizing people, if it's rethinking ideas, or reinventing tomorrow, wherever the re needs to happen, Is where we get involved. And Courageous is our— we're a bit like a special forces team. So swoop in as needed, help you find your special, operationalize that special, and then get out of the way.

Okay. Okay. Stop, Ryan, because all these ad words, you're going to have to explain. We've got the re— we've got the ampersand, which we still have to tell people. Sure. And now we've got the— what is it?

Which part? The re—

What are you scooping in?

Oh, Special Forces. Yeah, I would say, I would say our— the way I would describe our day job is we're a create-the-change company. So anywhere where you need change, you need courage.

Okay.

And people don't really want to talk about change.

They don't like change. They don't want to address change. They want to suppress change.

And so But we gotta— if you're gonna stay relevant, then you have to address it. And so the idea is to inject a bit of courage where it's needed, whether it's in your people or your culture, if it's in your products or your ideas, or it's in your future pipeline.

And we're, we're basically custom building our teams to then bolt onto your team to give you the courage that you need to, to move forward.

OK, so we're going way too fast, and we, we're speaking a lot of ad speak here.

And this concludes our show. Thanks everybody for coming today. No, I thought that was it. 4 minutes.

Now we're gonna break it down. We're gonna break it down, you know. So, and even Anna— Anne writes in, Anne Kaplan. She says she appreciates this format for knowledge and sharing. So let's make sure we get the knowledge understood and the sharing understood. What exactly is courage as it relates to leadership. And first of all, I'm supposed to ask you— you've taken over the show, Ryan, which is typical.

CB, I have a few questions for you.

What?

What do you got for me?

Okay, so my question is, what do you see as the biggest 3 challenges that people in the C-suite have? Now we can jump.

That's a big question.

Yeah, I know.

Um, if I'm in the C-suite, I think the biggest 3 challenges I have is number one, I'm lonely.

Lonely? Whoa, that's a surpriser.

Meaning I don't know who to trust.

Yeah, yeah.

And when I don't open up myself for trust, good luck, because of laws of attraction.

Okay, we're gonna go through the 3 things first, and then we're gonna go back and explore them.

Number 2 is, is I hold on too long to the precious points I have versus thinking about my tomorrow.

So I'm holding on to strategies that maybe I need to start to evolve. And number 3, I have a hard time genuinely galvanizing the next generation workforce. Therefore, if they don't stick around, if they're not, if they're not galvanized, they're gone and you have an attrition problem.

Okay. Now, so let me think. I think I'll take that piece by piece and then ask you, how does the courage fit into this?

All right.

So the first thing is holding on to the here and now.

Well, I think the first one is the loneliness.

Yeah, okay, I wasn't going in order. Here we go. Okay, audience, here we go. This is Ryan and I on stage together. I love it.

I, I can— I'm happy to answer in any way you want.

Oh my love, just go ahead with it.

Okay, well, look, I think it's, it's hard to be the leader sometimes, and you feel like you're all alone in this, this journey, but You know, I call for some people ivory tower syndrome. They're too far away from the work. They haven't done enough listening. They're not vulnerable enough. So yeah, you feel lonely and therefore you don't trust, and then yet you still make a call which then breaches trust in the other direction. So how do you give yourself permission to not know all the answers? And to go and listen and ask your team, which is gonna actually help you on that quest to not be by yourself and not be alone. So I think that's one. What was No.

2?

But wait a second, why does this happen?

Fear.

Of what? You're already at the top!

I think there's still a ton of fear and pressure for the leader to feel like it's their responsibility alone to drive the organization forward. Or maybe once they get there, there's imposter syndrome.

Wait a second now. I was gonna go with, isn't this a male thing? And you just switched it to a female thing.

No, no, no, no, there's no female—

Imposter syndrome is really assigned to women more than men.

I don't know if I buy that.

Look, I have imposter syndrome still going, doing keynotes, and I still feel that.

I think anytime you go into something new There's gonna be uncomfortability.

It's, it's whether you choose to let everybody else know that or not.

OK.

So I think, I think, uh, the minute you're open about that and say like, I, you know what, I don't have all the answers.

I'm gonna do the best I can with the information I have, which means you've got to go on a fact-finding mission. You actually have a shot. But I think many leaders, because they're afraid or feel like they need to know it all, Or maybe they don't trust the team, or for whatever reasons that they might have, they start to isolate themselves.

Really not a great move, also when there's a pandemic going on.

Yeah.

Right, so double, double bad.

So how do you, how do you get out of that? That's a whole mindset.

It is. It's, it's a mindset choice. And I think it just starts by being open and willing to share with your team. Start with you.

Start with like, What keeps you up at night? What are you worried about? How can we address this together? Who, who are your confidants that you can really rely on to have that first conversation?

More listening.

Brian, Brian, do you think that we are in a non-trustworthy world? Is that the feeder for this?

There's—

I mean, I think you know where I'm going with this, but yeah, I think I think we lose a lot of time, and I think time is what this is all about. We lose a lot of time not trusting, or because we think people don't trust, then we have to go find alternative solutions to just going at the actual problem. I mean, that's sort of one of the aha moments on courage. It's like, well, why don't we just go at this right at, like, straight ahead and have at it versus Dilly-dallying or biting your lip or keeping it on the inside.

And sometimes people are just afraid to be confrontational.

They're afraid that they're going to hurt someone's feelings, or depending on which way it goes, right, you don't want to get fired. So if you're, if you're, if you're going up the other way, there's an issue the other way too. But to me, it's about time. It's about like, how do you pick up time, have the hard conversation, get through it? And if you're in a position that you can feel psychologically safe to share Usually we're moving in the right direction.

But a leader clearly does not— I shouldn't say this for all leaders, but many leaders haven't created a space for psychological safety for themselves and certainly not for their employees. The trust comes— the lack of trust, I think, from employees comes from several areas, but one of the big ones is a constant change. And it's like you convince your employees to go in this direction today, and so tomorrow you're going in another direction because you read a different book, right?

Yeah.

And then, then we get into the whole trust of, do I only trust people that look like me? And so If anyone who doesn't look like me gives me good feedback, dares to give me good feedback, I'm gonna discount it because they don't look like me. They don't sound like me. Hmm.

Look, I think trust starts with like, as I'm processing this information, like, do you trust yourself first?

Say more.

Well, again, do you have the tools?

to actually go, do I trust myself? Like, what information am I trusting that I'm telling myself? Yeah.

What do you think they need, though?

Say it again.

What, what tools do you think are needed?

Well, you know, how much time do we have? Because I feel like—

Go for it.

Okay. Like, I think we're, we're living in a very cloudy time.

Yeah, yeah.

Right. I mean, there's a clarity epidemic.

That's happening.

I love that. Clarity epidemic. Yeah.

Right there.

And, and so what happens is when we're not clear, that, that slows us down, right? That we start to question ourselves when we're not clear.

Does clear mean that you can't change your mind?

Oh, you can change your mind.

Okay.

I mean, look, I think to your point, the idea of this, of being inconsistent every day is going to be a problem, right? Like, you know, if you're changing your mind every day, that, that's a whole nother problem. Because I do think that repeaters make believers. You know, you're, when you repeat yourself, but you're repeating yourself because you're clear of what matters most.

So, you know, I'm a broken record on values.

I'm not going— that's not going away anytime soon. Like, what, what are your values? Can you rattle off your values? For anyone that's listening today, Treat yourself like a business. What are your personal values? Everyone says they know their values, but can you really rattle them off? And have you made choices on those values? So for me, the amount of time I save because I know my personal core values and they're in the order that matter most— I don't spend a lot of time—

this is me—

with people that don't honor those values. 340 million people in the US. I can find a few that honor my values. That doesn't mean we have differences, because I want to be better. So if curiosity was a value, I want to spend my time with people that are curious, that are inquisitive, that want to have people like me on their show, and vice versa, right?

Playfulness is my number one core value. Okay, I take my work seriously, but not myself that seriously.

I'm only here for a short period of time. So I do better with people that like to play.

Super serious CEOs, I'm probably not the right fit. Just not.

We're just wired differently. But we waste a lot of time in the wrong places where we shouldn't be playing. So if I'm clear on that, now I can start to design a life where I'm working with the right type of clients for me. When your company is called Courageous, it's also telling you who you're not for, right?

I should spend zero time working with the 20% of the dilly-dalliers.

It's probably more. I'm just trying to design that life and actually save time in both directions. That's clarity.

That's, that's what I mean by like, at least I'm clear on my, my point of view.

And it just goes back to my values. So if you're a leader of a company and you haven't thought about your values once during this pandemic, You probably have the wrong values. Time to go back to the drawing board.

This— I'm speechless because this is so good. Ryan, do you think that a company can have all its employees attached to the leader's values or support the leader's values? And, and so what do you do with people? That's part 1. And part 2 is, what do you do with people that you find don't have those same core values that are part of your organization?

Yeah, so I can only speak for myself versus another company. But so Courageous isn't just me, right? I have partners. So I describe it as more like a cocktail, right? Like there's different ingredients that go into the cocktail. And of course, my ingredients go in as well, just like my partners' ingredients go in. So my personal core values are not Courageous's core values. Those Those values are a manifestation of the leaders. I'm one of the leaders. So sacrifice is our number one core value at Courageous.

Interesting.

Okay, so like, how do you help company?

Well, look, I think very good companies prioritize, great companies sacrifice.

What are the one or two things you absolutely—

Say that again.

Good companies prioritize. They put their list together of the 17 things they want to get done in 2021. And of course you can't do all those things well.

Great companies sacrifice.

What are the 3 things you're going to do great? What are the, what are the 2 things you're going to do great in 2021?

So we always say the most important thing is the most important thing.

Have you declared it to your team?

So sacrifice is number 1.

Magic is number 2 for us. So this is where all those crazy words come in, right? But like, at the end of the day, most consultants make you think. We want to make you feel. Right, without feel, there's no behavior change. 3 is speed. We know the world is moving at a rapid rate, but notice we didn't say fast. So sometimes we're going to go slow to go faster later. And then finally, 4 is change, right? Are we actually making change? Are we just spinning? And every month we send a survey out to our clients on those 4 values and they grade us. And we do the same on them.

I have 5.

What do you got?

Sacrifice, magic, feel, speed, and change.

Feel's not a value.

Okay.

Feel is part of the magic.

I mean, I think when you feel— when you walk into a culture that just is humming, you can feel that.

To me, that's the magic. I always like to say, no feel, no deal.

You know, but so like, when you walk into a culture that's driven by fear, you feel that too.

Feel like the oxygen is gone.

You can feel the, the, these cultures. So we want to be the company that's bringing a little bit of magic.

When you walk into Apple, that store, for many people, you feel the magic when you walk into that store. You walk into Disney, you feel the magic. So that, that magic is why people stick around.

So at other companies, to go back to your actual question, If someone is not aligned with those 4 values for us at our company, they're probably at the wrong company.

And because we take them seriously, and they're everything we do, and we're rewarding people monthly on them, it's very clear that every decision we make is through the filter of those 4 values. Those are our— those are like, it's our ammunition for moving forward.

How does a company— because you have partners, and I know them. And you're right, they, they do align with these values. But I would even say that there's a longer list because both of you are incredible people. And so I don't— I mean, to me, integrity, honesty, you support other people, you reach down and help people that are lower than you and bring them up, you know. And those things, I, I'm— I guess we're not assigning to a value, but to me that's part of your magic, both you and Rhett.

Um, one, I appreciate you for saying that because I— it— we try.

But 2, it's, it's sort of like the oxygen, right?

It's like it's there, it should be there, like it shouldn't not be there.

I always find like when you have to have a, a value like integrity as a value, there's a bigger problem. Like integrity should not be a value like that. You should have integrity.

Part of humanity.

Yeah, yeah. Now I'm not saying— look, if there's a certain industry that's known to be like the car industry and you feel you need to have—

sport car industries, right?

And you feel like you need to have it on your list But like, this goes back to the the concept of sacrifice. Like every time I add a word, I'm watering down another value. So I'd rather just be like, these are these are our values.

We're very clear on this. I'm not that smart anyway. I can't remember too much. Four I can remember. Now let's go.

How did you first? Are your company values different from your? Personal values. Is that possible?

Yeah, my company values are different than my personal. So personally, playfulness is 1, creativity is 2, courage is 3, and excellence is 4.

And then if you really—

Playfulness, courage.

Playfulness, creativity, courage, and excellence are my 4.

And then company is sacrifice, magic, speed, and change. So you can see little tenets, right, of my personals Right.

Creativity is in Magic. Excellence is, I don't know if that would go under, you know, sacrifice, or I don't know where that would go.

But it's on the list too. It's, there's little parts of me in the, in the bigger picture.

How do you decide for your company what the core values are? Is it that you all, all your partners come to a meeting and say, OK, these are going to be our Well, it was a very deliberate and long process with lots of conversations. Question specifically because I remember talking to Rhett, your partner, and we were talking about you. And it was— he said something like, and I'm paraphrasing, when I met Ryan and I worked with him, I knew we were meant to be partners because our values were the same. And I'm like, Okay, how do you know that? And do you, do you sit down with a cheat sheet and write them all down and then you don't peek at each other? I mean, you know, I'm exaggerating, but you know.

You put in the work, you know.

You know when you run into people that are like you and not like you. And if— and again, like, think this is the same for you and me, you know. We, we met because Red had you come to one of the action chats we were doing and that, that sort of forum allows for people to bring their perspective and to hear, challenge people, but also hear other people's perspective.

And then hopefully you leave with a little nugget or two.

A lot of nuggets.

And, you know, and if you don't like that forum, you know, that's— then you don't, you don't come back, you know. You don't—

why, why waste the time? So, um, yeah, I think it was sort of the same thing we—

how we—

how Rhett Power and I met is when I had written my Return on Courage. Someone's like, you've got to go on this guy's show and talk about your book. I was like, okay, great, like, let's do it. And, uh, I think we spoke for an hour before we hit the record button. It was just very easy going back and forth, and we're like, oh, we probably should have recorded that.

Yeah, and that was it. That's how it started.

Okay. All right, so we, we did veer off talking about loneliness, but I think we hit on some— I know we hit on some really salient points that our listeners may not have thought about. I mean, I don't know that I've thought about attaching values to my work life. But if I now think about it, based upon our conversation, I have very strong values with my work life.

Yeah.

I have no doubt.

I have no doubt. You know, and again, I think it's Go back to the, the cloudy, this clarity epidemic.

So right now, let's say you had 30 people on your team, 1,000 people on your team, whatever it might be. You have 30 offices right now, or 1,000 offices, because we all are working from home. So imagine trying to like delicately design the behavior of your team of what's expected of them. With all these little mini one cultures going on and us not being able to be in the same place.

So I think it comes back down to, are you really living the values? Are they, are they real or are they BS?

You know, are they CYA values and that's it, that help you when you get in trouble, right? That like are collecting dust in some employee manual?

Or, oh, we're clear, this is what's important.

You know, that the irony is I'm a guy that came out of the emotional business, like an emotional business of advertising, but this takes the emotion out of the decision-making because you don't need permission now on how to act if you know, hey Ryan, you told me magic was the number 2 value. I was trying to like make some magic. Okay, did it work? Did it not work? What do we learn from it? Let's push forward.

Yes. Yeah. I'm going to ask you a question. There's no right or wrong answer, but it can get you in trouble.

Oh boy, here we go.

Do you think— which do you think is more lonely at the top of the organization, men or women?

Wow. I think men.

I think, I think their ego just, just gets in the way.

You know, I, I'm, I'm kind of on record. I mean, I really mean this. This is not— there's nothing— we've kind of had a shot at running the country. This is just for the— look, if you wanted to go politics, um, and really haven't seen much success, at least for right now, how divided we are. And so you see other countries where women are at the top and it's more empathetic. It, you know, it sure seems like we might try something different. And I'm in the why, you know, again, it's why, why are we afraid to, to share? Are we less aware? Are we less empathetic? Are we caught up in the wrong things? You know, I don't know all the whys, but, and I don't think I'm gonna get in trouble for this answer. I just think it's the truth. I think, I think right now you're seeing the importance of empathy And, um, one of my, one of my partners, his name is Billy Collins. He comes to a lot of the sessions as well. He kind of nailed it. The— we were talking about what does it take to make a great leader, and, you know, I was like, what, listening and loving is important? And he was like, you know, I don't know if it's listening versus remembering.

And those are different, you know, those are different. And I was like, you know, you're right.

Like, I think it's the concept of remembering takes it to a whole nother level. And like, because once if you remember, then you can use that information later to like relay back, like, hey, you know how you said this? Let's, let's, let's honor that. Let's stay with that.

And so maybe as a gender, we could be better listeners.

We can remember more. And, um, You know, if I got myself in trouble with anybody on the— on my gender side, I guess, then reach out and let me know where I messed up.

You know, it's an interesting question because according to psychometrics and psychology, uh, women have this warmer sense about them and this, uh, sense of gathering And sharing, but then you look at the male side and you have that sense of team playing. So does one not balance out the other in terms of not being lonely or being more lonely?

Hmm. You know, I I mean there's so like again, I do think you're spot on that if I'm the CEO of a company and I've declared what we are, I'm thinking about Reed Hastings from.

from Netflix who's on record saying, we're not a family, we're a sports team.

Okay, that's clear. That's clear whether you like, right, the direction or not.

It's clear what, you know, if you're good enough, you play, and if you don't, you don't.

Lots of companies, when we do a lap, they're like, well, my department feels like a family, but Well, though, that's the, that's the problem, right?

What do you mean, but? Like, is everybody playing off the same playbook or not? So I think it's just, it is declaring one playbook that the whole company can rally around.

And then it's having the courage to stay to the playbook.

I love this. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's really, again, we're back to clear, like how clear is the organization?

Well, I mean, one of the things that happens, and I know this started happening to me when I first started the Association of Corporate Executive coaches. I was watching what my competitor was doing. And really wasn't a competitor because we were small potatoes. But I would get upset because I felt like they were copying us, and they had more money and more power, more members. And so I was busy watching over there instead of watching here.

Yeah.

And that's just not good. And fortunately, one of my mentors said, You know, only pay attention to competition if there's something for you to learn. Otherwise, move forward.

Yeah. Well, you did learn something.

You learned that your, your model works.

Yes, I did. I did.

Right.

Okay. Now, all right. Holding on to the here and now. Why is that bad?

Because the world is changing every day. You know, again, I come—

you got to remember, I come out of marketing.

So the idea of what the marketer wants—

this isn't— they're going to probably hate me for this, so now I'm just alienating away.

Uh, they're, they're looking for their 15 minutes of relevance.

Like, help us. Like, great, help me be relevant right now. Like, we want a meaningful spotlight on us now.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

And so it's this quest for relevance. The CEO is looking for sustained waves of relevance.

Great.

How does this help us figure out our tomorrow too, assuming they're leading the right way? And so the idea of having focus only in what you're working on right now, or you may have had a big hit winner and you're putting all your focus and all your energy in that, does not put yourself in a position to succeed tomorrow. So this is the old, what got you here won't keep you here. Mentality. And, you know, one of the things I talk about in Return on Courage is it's really hard to work on your tomorrow when you need time and don't have time. Like, how am I supposed to work on my tomorrow and I have no time? And so part of this, I believe, is to create proactive process and put resource behind figuring out your tomorrow. Those little investments, those little experimental task forces, that get 5% of your budget and 6 months of psychological safe space to experiment so they can come back and report on what they're learning.

I want to go back to something though. Um, this whole thing of not holding on to the here and now, does it not fly in the face of tradition, the value of tradition? If you're saying think, focus on the future and where you're going, you know, how do you do that and incorporate or respect or utilize tradition? Are you saying throw that away?

I'm saying if the customer values tradition and you're delivering tradition, then it should be important.

If the customer doesn't value tradition Right, and you're holding on to something that's slipping on relevance. Maybe you shouldn't value tradition. Like, I had a guest on my podcast maybe 2 weeks ago named Jeff Cottrell. Jeff was a— I think he was a CMO of Coca-Cola. If not, he was the vice president of marketing for Coca-Cola.

Prior to that, he was at Converse, and he was telling me the story of when Converse turned 100. He's like, hey.

And so in focus groups, they're like telling 16-year-old kids, it's a big deal, we've turned 100. And they're like, you just reminded me that you're old.

And it's— and like, there lies your answer, right? If the customer thinks there's value in tradition, and some do—

the Masters is this week— some see value in tradition of the Masters.

Well, that's a good place to play.

Maybe they could take that tradition and bring it into the future. What is the VR? What is— if I could buy a ticket to the Masters through VR and have a front row seat, that's one way to honor tradition but also bring forward something that's relevant.

You know, I, I think about this conversation, and when I was in marketing and branding Um, one of the products that I launched was Honey Bunches of Oats, and we had a kick-ass package. And I look at it now and it looks like it has been diluted to the nth degree.

Yeah.

And I remember that as each marketing person came on, they felt they had to put their stamp. Like, the original package had little bees around the honeycomb, which really represented true honey in the product. Some marketing person came along after and said, oh, but people are going to think there's insects in the package. What? You know, so they took that off, and then they took off this, and they took off that. Like, is that tradition, or is that moving forward? Because when I compare that to, like— The little girl with the umbrella on Morton Salt, I could recognize that. I could recognize a red and white carton of Marlboro cigarettes from 20 miles away, right?

Yeah.

So how do you balance these two when you're— first of all, when you're a startup company, do you cling to one look versus a classical company? I mean, where are the dangers?

Yeah, I think, uh, first of all, I don't think it's— that's tradition or something else.

It's definitely something else, you know. I think it's people's need to feel like they made their mark and they put their thing on versus like, again, what is the right thing for the brand?

There was nothing that drove me more mad than hiring someone who was extremely strategic who would then use that strategy, that strategic chops to just protect themselves inside the organization.

Oh gosh, you've said a mouthful there.

But it ha— you know, it happens. You're like, if you could have just applied all that wit, all that smart, to like push the brand forward versus like just insulating yourself and protecting yourself, like that was a strategic choice too, right? That, that's where we get ourselves in trouble, I think. So yeah, it's so funny. I think when there's this big mistake, when you, you think you're— you put yourself first versus put the brand first. But actually, when you put the brand first, you go further, faster, almost always. And if you're in an organization that doesn't reward you for that, that's another hard conversation you have to have.

Yes. Exactly right.

So, um, so yeah, so I don't think, you know, the, the example that was used is anything but one of the poorer sides of human nature, right?

Where people feel the need to put their little touch on something and it makes it worse. And like, again, we're back to clarity. Like, how focused are we on the right things? Are we clear on what the most important thing is here? I'm like, let's push forward.

Yeah, I think that that's one of the challenges that people at the top of the organization have is where do you allow for expression for people below you? And when is it going to destroy the brand of the organization or the product or the service?

Yeah. On the startup side, if I was anyone in the startup space, I think marketing is a very different function. Than traditional marketing, meaning I am doing everything I can to listen to the voice of the customer. So marketing isn't just about getting new customers, it's about listening and reporting back on the needs of the customer. Because if you can nail your product, if you can actually make a better product You're on your way. And the focus needs to be on that as far as I'm concerned.

I know we're always like, well, we need customers, we need customers, we need customers.

Well, you know, you need to listen to customers.

You need to listen and make sure that what they actually want is baked into the product first. And I think marketing gets this bad rap as being like at the kiddie table, like, go, go find us customers. Where are the customers? It's like, no, no, no, the marketing is the voice of the customer. As well? Are we really listening to the voice as we're making our product? And as we're early on in a startup, it needs to be an input, not just an output.

You know, you just validated something that I did. Um, at the association, ACEC, our members are really excited about what we do for the most part and how we do it and the values we have. And, and people feel like they found their their village as corporate executive coaches. Recently, however, I got 2 emails that caused me to pause. And one was this morning, and it was from a member. I reorganized a sister company, and she said, this is really a great, great thing you've done because it allows for greater clarity. And it makes members like me understand better the value of the organization. And I'm paraphrasing. And I thought, wait a second, this person has been a member for a year. If they're not seeing value in the organization after a year, I need to ask a hard question.

Hmm.

And the question was, What are your goals in joining this organization? And what are you committed to, to reach those goals? Because I realized as a small business owner, one of the things that we do constantly was we're like a hamster with the wheel going around trying to please everybody.

Yeah.

And when you're pleasing the majority and you get an outliner, then stop going around in the wheel. Stop and say, what's going on? Because there may be something you missed. But equally important, there's a satisfaction that you're not granting from a customer. And you need to find out what that is.

Yeah.

But I think a lot of people are afraid to ask that question because they take it all on themselves. So the part 2 of my question was, what are you committed to do? Doing to make this happen?

Yeah, that's the action part.

So this would be a good time to share, you know, remember I, I got this pretty lucky opportunity to go around and interview all these people for the book.

And Return on Courage, it's— it, to me, the way I describe it, it's not like a soapbox book. It's not Ryan Berman's 20 Tips to Getting Ahead, right?

It's— it was more like a documentary. And, and where I actually started was I'd come up with this idea of Courage Brands, and I'm like, I love what that sounds like. I don't know what it means. Can I come up with a definition for that? And so the only way to do that is to really dissect courage first before you can get to Courage Brands.

And when you look at the dictionary definition of courage, it's the ability to do something that frightens one.

Now, I don't know about you, but like, that doesn't sound like a Monday morning to me. Like, that's the last thing I want to do at work is something terrifying.

Yes, exactly.

You know, so, and then who am I to question the dictionary definition of courage as a television radio major from upstate New York, right?

So you can imagine my initial conundrum.

And, um, the first 6 months of the book was really Exploring, could I come up with a better definition? And where I landed, and this is after talking to, you know, astronauts and Navy SEALs and tornado chasers and firefighters, and then bullish leaders at Apple and Google and Amazon and Harvard and Method and Domino's, and then clinical psychologists, Cambridge PhDs, you know, you throw all that in the soup and, and where I landed was a little bit algebraic that could help you in real time. And it's knowledge plus faith plus action equals courage. And it has to be all 3. And you know, in business, you're never going to have every bit of knowledge you need to make a call.

And I will fight the data people to tears on this one, you know, because if you sit there and you wait for all of the data, you will get passed. Now you're gonna have 60% of the data, 70% of the data.

I mean, as data comes in, as the knowledge comes in, your faith should go up, right? So high knowledge, hopefully high faith. And when we talk about faith, we're talking about not religion, but inner, inner intuition, inner belief, experience. And then how often have you known the right thing to do and you felt the right thing and you don't do anything? There's no action. So to me, knowledge plus faith plus action is courageous, and 2 of 3 in any direction is anything but. Knowledge plus faith without action is paralysis. Faith in action without knowledge is reckless. And knowledge in action without faith— if you are numb on the inside, going through the motions, you're working on status quo. You're working on safe. And when you're not there to defend your idea in the market, right, this new packaging with— that's been watered down, right, that Honey Cheerios— maybe it doesn't perform at the level it needs to, but you can't be there to point to it the way you wish you could. And the world does not know or care if you've worked on something for 80 hours a week or 8 hours a week. They just see the end product. There's no—

Yeah.

Asterisks. So to me, like, my hope is to give people a definition that they can use in projects. What do I know about this? How does it make me feel? What am I gonna do about this? Knowledge, faith, and action.

Love it. Well, you know what, it's, it's similar to the tagline that we have for Workplace Racial Equality, the company, which is Intent. We help you take intent and commitment and move it into action.

Yep.

Because we feel that so many people, especially in social justice, have a good heart, intend to do something, but don't know how to carry it through. And we're here to help you carry it through.

Yeah, I think the action part's the hard part.

Yes, extremely.

You know, because it takes, it takes work, it takes, it takes commitment, as you said.

And, um, and you have to be conscious, which is the intent piece that you talked about.

Yes, right.

You have to be conscious that you're, you're gonna make a stand and you're gonna make a— you're gonna— and you have to be consistent with that. So the minute you move into the action camp, it's not like Well, I did once. I mean, kind of like—

No, it doesn't work that way.

What? We did it! We did it!

You're right.

I have a— let's go back, go to your last statement. And Anna, I'm sorry, and that we haven't gotten to all of your questions and comments, but I want to get to the last part, which is galvanizing the next generation. And we have time to discuss this. What does that mean? Why do we have to be responsible for the next generation?

Well, you can choose not to if that's— you know, I don't think that's a great strategy.

You know, Anne said something in the chat that, that, that, that works here.

She talks about the, the importance of being authentic.

Yes.

Right. So, you know, again, I, I think when we are honest with the next generation, you, you win a lot of points. I think when you're real with the next generation, you win a lot of points. And Um, I will say that I think millennials get a real bad rap, you know.

Oh, I agree.

You know, it's like, you know, if you're, if you're calling them entitled, you really haven't spent enough time.

Haven't listened.

Yeah, you know, and like, that's— I know you're busy, but if you, if you want to like actually be a voracious rememberer, as we've talked about, it starts by really understanding them. And so yes, do I feel like I like to joke they, they want to have their cake, they want to eat it too, and they want the cake to be gluten-free, right? They want everything.

Yeah.

And I don't blame them, you know. I don't blame them because they think we messed up their world.

Like, that's just, that's just where, where they, they see it. And like, why—

they don't—

they, they want to be like their full selves in everything they do, and they wear their values on their sleeves, and they're not afraid to do that.

So like, why wouldn't you create an environment That allows them to do that.

And yes, that means you have to work harder, as the world has changed. And Laurence Fink, BlackRock, put out a, you know, note to all of his CEOs on the demand for purpose. It's this, this concept of purpose is not a, you know, a fluffy thing. It's a real thing that needs to be figured out. And it's got to be authentic.

And why would—

like, Lawrence Fink doesn't need positive press. He's got $6.5 trillion in his, you know, in the assets there. He's doing it because he understands the way the world is moving. He understands what's important to the next generation. And these up-and-coming CEOs and entrepreneurs of the next company will have purpose baked into their companies because they know if you get that right, people will actually want to come work for your company and you'll have, you'll have more authenticity and less attrition.

Yeah, you know, I, I struggle to understand why there's so much conflict between generations. When, when you stop and think about it, each generation wants the best for themselves, their family, and for the world. Why can't we bring this all together? And work together to this.

I think this is an awareness problem, honestly. So I think it's just an awareness problem.

It's, it's very easy to chalk it up to, well, what my parents taught me was this, right?

What did your parents teach you? You're— well, my parents taught me you get into a company and you put your head down. And you're rewarded after 20 years. You'll get a nice watch after 25. Congratulations.

And it's like, that's just not the way it works anymore.

And it's frustrating for the leaders sometimes when you have very talented employees jumping every 18 months, 12 months, 15 months. And, um, yeah, the real question is, well, maybe we need to create a path for those types of employees so they're not leaping.

Ooh.

Maybe it's, you know, is that, is that, is that really the whole generation? If they were truly challenged and empowered, and if you're giving them opportunities, maybe they don't bounce, maybe they don't leave.

So I think that's part of it.

Do we need to worry about this as solopreneurs?

Probably. Probably. I think— I mean, look, I think why not? Why, why not?

If you're, you know, both of us have come from corporate, both of us are no longer in corporate. That— it's not about age, it's about mentality.

Yeah.

Right. And so if it's about creating something relevant and meaningful, and I can create an organization where that's possible, why, why wouldn't I do it?

Or why not create a fund in my company, right? And invest in those ideas and share, share the wealth back.

There's a lot of ways it could go.

One way it shouldn't go is what's happening, which is just leaders throw their hands up. They don't try to understand what's going on. They have their own problems and they don't realize that this will be a problem for them if they don't address it.

So we have, uh, 10 minutes left. There's 2 subjects left. You can take your pick or you can address both. One is I want to know more about your new book that's coming out.

Yeah.

Or 2 is you created a very powerful image with an ampersand, and where is that going? Because I thought it was spot on. Yeah, it's so incredibly powerful.

Let's start there, okay? Because, because I feel like I need help on it, and it has potential. And that's like the worst word in the dictionary as far as I'm concerned, because it's just like untapped what it can be.

Um, look, when the incidents with George Floyd happened was probably the first time that my brain could understand that this was bigger.

From—

it short-circuited me in my— where I live, in a bubble, in a bubble, in a bubble in Southern California, because I've never once felt threatened to go for a run other than the fact that I don't like running, and I've branded it the fun run to try to trick myself that I like running.

Um, so I wanted to do something. And I think anytime people want to get involved, they're like, where do I start? You start with your superpower.

Whatever you're best at is where you start. So my superpower is probably that I know a lot of really talented people, and I'm fairly decent at storytelling.

So I basically put together a team, which you're a part of, and we'd come up with this idea that the world is, is better as an and.

It just is. It's not an or, it's an and.

And the way we first launched this was acknowledging the realities that there are unconscious bias, right?

And there are certain issues on the planet, there's no black and white on it. It's, it's, it's black and white. There shouldn't be any gray on, but the black and white looks very different depending on the color of your skin.

Yes.

So we created something called itsblackandwhite.us.

Which was a 10-question, 5-minute experiment that could unveil your unconscious bias. And depending on if you're white, your answers were probably different in certain places than if you were Black. Some we were aligned on, like our trust in the media, but we're gonna need another hour for that. So it started there, but that was really to unveil the concept that it's okay that we're different as long as we acknowledge the differences and work towards Common ground, but we are better as an and. And so we turned the ampersand into what we called Stand With And, the And Movement. Now it's about making it real and like making a program out of the And Movement. And can companies actually take part in the And Movement? Could it be somewhere between the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval for diversity, equity, and inclusion and And B Corp, somewhere in that arena, the creation of this And. You've earned that And mark.

And it's a combination of action, awareness, education, right? And are you living, are you really living the And inside your organization? So, so I think we've nailed the media side.

I think we've done a nice job in like getting the, the story right. But I think we've done a poor job And activating it. And if any of your listeners want to help activate, they can reach out to you, and you know where to find me. And because to me, that's the next step is, okay, you know, is this gonna— this little fire gonna go or not? And it's way bigger than me. It's not about me. So that, that's where I really need help on it.

Yeah.

Um, and there's room for growth. We don't—

like we said, we don't know it all, have it all. It's Right now it's an idea that we believe in, but it needs more than just our team.

Well, I hope it doesn't die, and I hope there are listeners that want to participate because first of all, I'm in love with the logo because, you know, not for just visual sake, but the logo, the ampersand, has such powerful energy behind it, and you don't find that with a lot of logos. Right? Because your logo says it all. You don't need anything else to tell the story. It tells the story.

And what's nice about the ampersand is it's a more inclusive ampersand.

Yes.

When you see it, it'll make—

that, that will make sense.

Yes. We have a few minutes left, 5 minutes left. Please tell us about your new book. When is it out?

So that's, uh, that's the almighty question. We're in, we're in test and tinker mode. Uh, but, but it's been an awesome, uh, year working with—

you don't hear it's been an awesome year that much this year, but it's been working with Rep Power and Gianna Biscontini.

The 3 of us kind of explored the reality that not only do we have— it's funny, we're kind of full circle. Not only are we dealing with this pandemic, we have a loneliness situation on our hand as well.

Uh, we're stuck inside our heads with our own thoughts. And I think a lot of us are self-sabotaging ourselves with self-talk. And so, you know, if the idea was, hey, do you even realize you're doing this to yourself?

And how do you help people get to the other side of it?

Then we have a shot.

The idea really is that what if the only way to be fully yourself is to understand that you're not One you, but two yous.

There's two of you in there, and it's a constant battle between the worrier part of you and the warrior part. And so if I could teach you to be less like the derailed worrier who's freaking out about everything, right, and more like the determined warrior, then you you got a shot to be successful and to minimize that self-talk. And so that's really what the book is about. It's about. The mental junk food we tell ourselves. How do we get through that? How do we stay authentic to ourselves?

And the book is more like a half book.

It's bigger than a parable, but it's like, it's like, it's— we know the topic is important. We want it to be a quick read. And it's broken down into 3 components. There's the problem itself. There's the, our actual process to helping you through it. And then there's like the practice part, the, the I call, I think we're calling them worry ventures. So how does the worrier brain take a worry venture versus how would the warrior brain take that on? And, uh, again, the idea is minimize that self-talk and, uh, and, and move forward and take action on the things you should be taking action on.

So that's the book Courageous. Um, one of the things that I heard Rhett said that you guys were going to do, which I thought was spectacular— and this may be a different project you're working on— is to help leaders not be afraid to go back to the past when they first started to get that energy and that vibe going so that they could revitalize— your reword— an organization.

Yeah.

Does that fit into the book also?

Different project. That's a different Rhett project. But I, I think that sort of like remembering why, how you got here. And I don't think that's tradition, right?

I don't think that's tradition. I think that's something else.

Yes, I agree.

Ignite and spark something that you need to remember.

And having the courage to do that.

Yeah. Because again, then you got it, then you're not being lonely.

You're not keeping it in. You're sharing it with your, your team, you know, and hopefully there's empathy to be had by doing that.

Yeah. You know, it's interesting because in this pandemic space that we're in, and we're actually in 5 pandemics, I, I look at it and I'm very fresh about it because I say, This is kind of like the— especially the COVID-19. This is the space that introverts flourish in. It's extroverts that are having a real hard time with this, being centered alone. And I'm guilty, guilty.

You know, I got it wrong at first. I was like, extroverts, reach out to your introverts, make sure they're okay. Okay, and then a couple people like, no, no, it's the other way around.

Exactly.

You know, you can make a case. The second topic that we didn't really get to was the Friday, the action chats. And—

Oh, okay, let's talk, let's talk. We've got 1 minute.

Yeah, basically I think the reason that I started it was because I'm an extrovert, needed to see faces, you know. And when the pandemic happened I did, you know, I did realize that there were a lot of lonely people. And I think, I think even on the marketing side, they're the most skeptical creature on the planet. And sometimes they feel very alone, even when you're not in a pandemic. So it was my way of trying to bring people together to a safe space where we could have real conversations. And, and, you know, CB, you've been there for, for like the last 6 months of it.

We've been doing this for a bit maybe 9 months now.

And as the topics changed, whatever the temperature check was, we would bring in a, a speaker on that topic. So it's been cool to see us go from pandemics and economy to Black Lives Matter to vaccines to elections. We've kind of followed the path— sports in the bubble. I mean, we're trying to obviously connect really good people that want perspective.

And, um, we try to do it every Friday at 5 PM on the East Coast. I know that's a tough time for some, but grab your wine or your mixed drink or whatever and come join and participate.

And, and even in the write-ups, we'll say, you know, participate in the action chat.

It's not about, you know, your, your camera's off and you're muted. It's you're, you're there and you're present.

Well, let me say before we go off the air that I'm going to put the link for that in YouTube. So if you go to CB Bowman Challenges— CB Bowman Live Challenges of the C-Suite, you'll be able to connect up with Ryan and get an invitation to this special event that he has on Fridays. But, you know, I'm kind of a little jealous because I like our small group. And, you know, I'm going to be opening it up to big— Larger people.

I think it's going to be— we'll keep it intimate, you know, and there's ways to the breakout rooms that we do from time to time. We want to be really mindful of this space.

And, um, you know, we're not looking to make this, uh, this is not like a scalable business. This is a place where we can all learn from each other and grow.

So terrific. Hey, Ryan, it's been so special having you on today. Will you come back and tell us other projects that you're working on? Because maybe— oh, don't give me that maybe. Uh-uh. No, you're committed. That's it.

I'm intentional in my intent, and I'm committed to taking action on coming back on your show.

How about that?

You've got— oh, I love hearing that. Thank you so much, everybody. This has been CB Bowman Live on Challenges of the C-Suite. Come and join us on Thursday when we talk about social justice. See you then. Bye. Have a successful week.