Challenges of the C-Suite with Sandra Quince, Episode 12w

Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of CB Bowman Live. Today we talk about workplace equality and equity, and we have an— again, I'm gonna say it— an amazing guest. But you know what, I only have amazing guests, so what can I say? But hey, before we start, I wanted to talk to you about what happened on Tuesday, we were supposed to have the well-known Alisa Hone, and LinkedIn went down. Can you believe that? I can talk. Um, so that's what happened, and we're gonna have her come back on, so not to worry, in August. So watch the calendar. And on my— on Tuesday, we will have on CB Bowman Live Challenges of the C-Suite, we're going to have Susan Grady, and she is CEO and Managing Director for Simmons University. You don't want to miss her. She's going to talk about challenges of the C-suite. On Thursday, we're going to have Anjali Grant, and she is a diversity recruiter. Stay tuned on Tuesday and Thursday. By the way, did you know that this show is rated as one of the top viewed shows on Apple Podcasts? I mean, come on. We're not playing around here. So with that, let me introduce Sandra Quince. And Sandra, you get to tell us all about your superpowers. Tell us about yourself.

Well, thank you, CB. First of all, congratulations on being one of the top shows in that media platforms that are out there. Um, it's a pleasure to be here with you today. Um, and so a little bit about me. So I am a wife to a wonderful husband, Alexander. I'm a mom, which I use that term in myriad of ways. I tell people I manage my son's career, I'm his Uber driver until he gets his license.

I'm out, I'm out. Uh, it's saying there's an error on LinkedIn and it didn't go live. I need to call my IT person. So for those of you that are listening, LinkedIn is having major problems. Let me try to reach out. If not, we'll just continue off of LinkedIn and then reload it onto LinkedIn. This is technology today.

That's right. You got to be able to roll with it.

Hey, Carla. We're doing the show and we're getting an error that says, um, an error occurred on LinkedIn. This is usually temporary. Wait a moment, try again. And I have tried and I'm still getting the error, and we're in the middle of a broadcast. Yeah, okay, so we're gonna just roll with it and, uh, republish it on LinkedIn. From YouTube. No, no, but that's okay. We'll go live on Facebook and on YouTube, and then we will try to upload it into— we will upload it into LinkedIn.

Okay.

Okay, great. All right, thank you. Bye. Oh, LinkedIn is having lots of problems these days, so let's just roll with the punches and go Facebook and YouTube, and then we'll republish on LinkedIn.

Sounds amazing. Yes, I love it.

So I interrupted you in telling the story about yourself, so you get to start all over again.

Okay, well, yeah, I'm married to the, the, the fantastic and amazing Alexander, and I have one son. We have one son, Caleb. And so I like to joke with people and say that I'm his manager. I manage his high school career. I am his Uber driver, and I am just all of those things. I wash his clothes at times and cook. So here I am. I do all of those things. And oh, by the way, I'm his mom. But yeah, so those are the things. Enough with my family. But absolutely, I am also a community leader and love to engage in the community. And last but certainly not least, I'm a diversity and inclusion executive with Bank of America. And so very proud to really be representing them today on this call with UCD.

You know, I never asked this question, but because you mentioned your husband.

Yes.

Love and proudness and all the gushy things. What does he do?

Yeah, so he is in media. He actually works— he's a journalist. He works for ABC News in New York. So he's an executive producer for the 12— the noon show and the 4 o'clock show there in New York.

Oh, what a combo. Your son doesn't stand a chance between his mom and his dad.

Yes, but he will forge his own path to greatness. and success, whatever his purpose is. So absolutely.

But, uh, I imagine that his grades are top of the house.

He has very good grades. Um, he is certainly looking forward to his 13th year, which is what they're calling it now when you graduate from high school. So what do you do when you graduate? And so he is definitely college-bound and looking forward to that. But I think what he's most looking forward to right now is just getting his license.

Well, of course, of course, right?

That's where the world revolves around today.

So, and has he started saving for his car?

Um, well, he thinks his parents should buy that car.

Oh, okay, let's get him on the show.

Absolutely, absolutely.

But yes, privilege that kids have today, you know.

Absolutely.

Yes.

I tell you, it's a different breed.

Oh, it really is. It really is. So, you know, I am so proud to have you on the show. And full disclosure, I bank at Bank of America. Yay!

Thank you for being a client. We love it.

I was so happy when I heard you speak and you said Bank of America and all of the programs that they have and what you lead for diversity, I'm like, yes, okay, I'm in the right place.

You are in the right place. What a wonderful company. It certainly aligns a lot with what you stand for, CB, and many of us. And so you're in good company.

You know, it's so important today because I think more and more customers are looking under the covers, so to speak, to see what are the values that organizations have.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, we could all talk about one bank. I won't say the name, but the initials are WF. And when the CEO came out with the statement that he could not find Black talent, I thought, I'm so glad I'm not at that bank. I really did think that way. And I think more and more people are thinking that way. They've become very conscious of consumer products, consumer services, and what's really going on.

Yeah, and CB, you're so right. And it's not just customers and clients, but it's also talent. Talent is a lot more selective in the companies in which they look at. And I just did a session for, um, a group of universities in North Carolina. They had brought a group of students together, and that was really what was top of mind for them. They wanted to understand, you know, how do I determine the type of company that I work for? How do I do my research? They're so much more savvy. And I know when I graduated from college some time ago, I wasn't thinking like that. I was just trying to say, who's going to give me the highest offer? And, you know, kind of go into the field that I'm looking for.

Yeah.

But even today, talent is much more savvy.

It's scary, they're so savvy.

Yeah.

And, you know, so I'm old school and I'm learning to be new school. And my 2 favorite stores are Apple and Costco, neither of which I can afford these days because I have an addiction with Costco. I go in for one little thing But I'll tell you what, as I had a situation last week where one of the cashiers was rude. And I know that's not the Costco value. So every Costco I go to, I get to know the managers. And I walked over to this manager and I said, you know, I'm not sure that she's representing the values that Costco stands for. 'Cause here's what my experience is for Costco. When I go in, I go in to relax because I am working intensely 24/7 on Zoom, on whatever media, Clubhouse. I really want to just shut down, look around, see what I want to eat, see what I want to buy, say hi to the people that are working there that I know. See if there's any customers I know. I want it to be a relaxing experience. When I go into Apple, I don't want to be bombarded with buy this, buy that. I want to look around, observe. You know, I feel like I'm in a nice clean environment, breathing clean air. But now I start to look. Here's where the new school comes in. When I walk into Costco and I walk into Apple, I want to see not— I want to have not only experience I have, but I want to see people of color mixed in with white people.

Yes.

I don't want it all one way or the other.

And that's so important. That's what people are telling us, right? And certainly some of the goals that you see that really fit many of the companies out there, but especially with Bank of America, our goal is to mirror the clients and communities that we serve. And even some of the companies that you've mentioned that you have a great affinity for. So I think it is important, you know, people want to know that they're doing business with a company that, number one, that is critically important to them. And like you said, it's not about not having white people. Being a Black African American woman, that doesn't mean that I want to walk in and see all Black women. That just means I want to see myself represented, my community represented in some way, shape, fashion, or form. or know that that's important to your firm, right? And so certainly that is critically important when you think about companies and the values and the vision that they have and how they execute diversity and inclusion, quite frankly.

Yeah. So I want to know— so I know that Bank of America represents very high standards in the diversity and the inclusion and the equity. Space and the equality space. How did you get there? What, what was the— what was the wake-up call?

Yes, you know, it's so funny, and I do get that question quite a bit, is— but it's, it's consistency. Let me back up. Number one, it starts from the top. It starts from the top when your CEO understands the importance of and is bought into the fact that diversity and inclusion is clearly not only the right thing to do, but it's important and imperative that it's a part of your business strategy and holds his or her leaders accountable for that. That's really how you begin that, that critical journey. The other thing is executing consistently over time and understanding that you are going to make some mistakes. Mistakes along the way, but how you course correct is so critical. And then, and then also where you stand on certain issues are important as well. But understanding your employees, what's important to them, having clear strategies around diversity and inclusion, calling out those areas where you are lacking or where you have the most opportunity are so important. You know, for many organizations, it's very hard to wrap their minds around saying things like, we need more Black African American leaders or Hispanic Latino leaders in this area. And so what you have to do is get comfortable with being uncomfortable as well. So for us, it's been a journey over time. And certainly in banking, you would have never some 20 years ago heard of a bank being known to be one of the best places to work.

Yeah.

And certainly be looked at as a place that is— that you can come and fulfill your goals and your dreams and your aspirations within this company, no matter who you were. And I think that journey over time has really made us successful. So we have really leaned into leading with data and then following with our passion or our tactics to help us get to where we need to go. Go, understanding that it's critical at the top to have that support and that drive around diversity and inclusion, and then ensuring that you're inspecting what you expect and calling it out and having very clear goals and tactics, and also understanding that you need targets or aspirational goals to get you where you need to be from a representation standpoint. The other thing I think is critical is the environment. What type of environment are you setting for those that come and work for you every day? And what do you mean when you say bring your whole self to work? And what does that look like? How do you create that sense of belonging for employees? And so that is not easy. It is hard work. But it is so worth it when you get to that place to what you see in the window is actually what's happening in the shop, which I can honestly say at Bank of America. what we're advertising is really what's happening in our company. And we're not perfect. And I'm not saying that because we are still people and we are human and we make mistakes and we still have a journey to go. And we understand that we are making strides.

You know, it just warms my heart to hear you, but I want to deviate a little bit because I'm laughing because you said what you see in the window is what you see behind the scenes.

Basically. Yeah.

And there is another bank. I won't say the name, but it has the letters TD in it. And I used to bank with them when I was in New Jersey. And when I moved— this is a deviation— when I moved here to Colorado, I wanted to continue banking with them because I like the branches. And they made it apps. And the tagline is Something about banking made easy around the world or something. And so I moved here and I thought, oh, this is great, I could continue to bank with them online. It was an impossible, frustrating, insulting journey, and I finally had enough. And that is one of the things that caught my attention about Bank of America. They made it so easy for solopreneurs to bank online. You felt like you— and this is going to be a weird statement— I always feel like I have Bank of America in my pocket regardless of where I travel or what I do, because all I have to do is use my smartphone, get online, pick up the phone. people respond. Yeah, they respond and they have solutions. And, and, and it's— they don't make it so that— now security is very tight, don't get me wrong, but they don't make it so that you feel like you're battling a wall. So kudos to you on that side.

Yeah, and I think also, CB, you know, just to that point, right, like I said, we're not perfect. We know we're human and we don't Every interaction, we want every interaction at Bank of America to be like the ones that you've had, but it doesn't always happen. But I think what's helped us to be able to get to that point is understanding that diversity and inclusion is a clear strategy throughout our business strategy. And for those out there that say, well, why would you do D&I? How has that helped your company? Those interactions that you're talking about, the fact that we have employees that are happy with the work that they're doing, so they can create that experience for their clients.

Yes.

That's why D&I is so important. We have employees who are innovative and we bring all of that thought process together and that makes us more innovative. So yes, you can carry Bank of America around in your pocket. That innovation comes from having a clear diversity and inclusion strategy interwoven throughout your business strategy. And so we're able to provide that level of service and expertise piece, not just because, you know, yes, we, we have that as a part of who we are and what we want to create for our clients, but it's the environment that we create for our employees that's so critical as well, that helps to lend to those experiences that you're having. So I am happy to hear that. There was a time where I would not wear my name tag out in public because it was such a bad year for banks. In general, but we have certainly rebounded. And I'm just joking about that because I would get asked in the grocery store, your bank's not doing whatever. And we certainly take that very seriously and we will do what we can to course correct. Um, but certainly—

I have one course correct.

Okay.

Open a branch in Fort Collins, please.

All right.

Colorado. I have to travel all the way down to the Denver area.

I know, I know. Colorado is a fairly new market for us. And, um, fairly new I say because we've been there for a few years. But, um, we are work—

you know, CB, I'll put that in I'll put a note in. Please, it's college town.

Yeah, there might be some plans already underway, I have no idea, but certainly, um, I, I can help them find a location, please. Yes, but keep in mind there's so many ways you can bank CB, so I mean, I know. Yeah, so I hope you feel that that personalized, um, service you're getting is even where you are without having the financial center right there at your fingertips.

That's true. That's— yeah, I want to be able to walk in.

I know, I know, I get you. I hear you.

Absolutely. Uh, I want to have that Costco experience, you know, my family, you know, my peeps are there.

I got you, I got you.

Now I want to go back. I'm going to challenge something that you said, um, and, and it is a challenge. because you said it starts at the top.

Mm-hmm.

And yet we have seen— I've seen, I'm much older than you are— the whole affirmative action, diversity. You hear the statements at the top of the organization, and then it sort of fizzles down. Now, my company workplace, equity and equality, we're looking at maybe the top is not the place to start. Maybe it's the middle so that the middle can push up and push down. Maybe that's where the strength is. What are your thoughts? How did it work for you and it's not working for other companies over so much time?

I think it works for us, CB. Here, I'll say a few things about that. First of all, diversity and inclusion has to permeate throughout your organization and it has to be a part of your DNA and everyone has to take ownership for it. It's like risk in an organization. Everybody owns risk. I know what happens when I have my laptop. If I left my laptop in my car and my car got stolen, I know what would happen and I understand the risk because my company has drilled that in me and I've had so much training around it that I understand my role in avoiding and helping to mitigate risk in my firm. And D&I is the exact same way. So there are several audiences, right? So it's the entire firm. It's also— it's, it's your grassroots. That's a critical and important component. Your leadership, it has to be led from the front because that's where decisions are made. That's where people are hired. That's where business strategies are developed. But you're absolutely right, you cannot forget about that— what I like to term, and many do in the industry term, is that frozen middle. Because you have those people that are really managing and leading the majority of your firm, so they are player coaches, meaning you're requiring them to lead a team of people, but you're also requiring them to manage a business strategy and process and then meet goals around that. You have to be able to equip those leaders to understand their role in driving and delivering diversity and inclusion as well as the business strategy piece of it. I think what we have done over time is we have hired the person that sells the most widgets to lead a team. You understand what I'm saying by the widget concept? I sell the most widgets, I'm the best at it, Guess what? I get promoted, and while I'm great at selling widgets, I might not be good at leading people. But I put in that position and I'm not given the necessary tools and resources that I need to lead people. It is a totally different skill set.

Yes.

You have to go back and really be thoughtful around, yes, they are an important piece to that puzzle because that is exactly where that D&I message And progress can get very stuck and stymied, if you will, because your grassroots and your entry level, they get it and they are clamoring for it. Top of the house and your executive ranks, they get it and they're trying to push it down. But it's that frozen middle that at times they can sometimes hinder that progress if you don't put the necessary tools and resources in place to really help them become the leaders that you need them to be, along with the best widget sellers, if you will.

So, you know, it reminds me of what my dear friend Marshall Goldsmith says when he's— when his book, actually, What Got You Here Won't Get You There. That's right. So how do you, um, infuse— I like the word infuse— um, this knowledge this thinking process, this inclusion, this belonging in the frozen middle? I'm asking that because you're hiring people that are coming from different organizations. Not necessarily banking, it could be anything based upon what you need. They don't necessarily come loaded with that Ammunition, thought processing, and experience. How do you get them up to speed?

Yeah, I think there are a few things to do, right? I think for us especially, you know, we have definitely been on that journey and we've created a— first of all, it's got to be in every part of the employee lifecycle. So from the minute you speak to that individual, attracting that talent to the point they are hired, to the point they are onboarded, to the point that they are developed, promoted, rewarded, and recognized for the work that they do, and then retained. That's the employee life cycle. And so what you've got to do is you've got to think about how are you embedding diversity and inclusion into all of that and helping your leaders be able to see that that is something that they should be doing as well. It also starts with their What are leaders experiencing that they then can replicate? Because I think that's important. If I'm being battered and bruised, then it's going to be very hard for me not to batter and bruise those underneath me. So that leader's experience has got to be key. Also, how are you assessing me? What are the tools and resources you have to tell me, Sandra, this is what you're doing well and this is what you need to do better, not just in the widget selling business.

Yes.

Even in your inclusive leader business. And do— have you described to me what an inclusive leader looks like? What does it feel like to be an inclusive leader? And then here are all the necessary tools and resources you need to do that. You also have to be able to help them to lean into those things that are uncomfortable and provide them with that. It's consistent conversations, learning, some training and experience that is so critical to have our leaders be able to be infused with understanding diversity and inclusion and becoming an inclusive leader.

I want to dive deeper in that. I know that there's a little bit of noise in the background for me. The tools that you're talking about, what do they look like? What are they?

Yeah, so I think the first thing is, is how do you measure employee satisfaction in your organization? And is there a D&I index in that, right? So what does your culture really look like and how are your leaders being measured? And then how do you share that information with your leaders? Are they above or below their peer group? Are they an outlier or are they the ones that's doing it the best? And those that are doing it the best, how are you leveraging their voices and their experiences and what they're doing very well in order to replicate that and then be sort of a model for their peers. So I think that's one thing. The other thing is what I talked about, that employee lifecycle, right? We created a D&I Everywhere document, one-pager sort of resource guide that tells you from— if I were to pick it up today and I knew nothing about diversity and inclusion. It really gives me everything I need to think about and to be mindful of as I'm looking at my employee lifecycle. So whether I'm hiring someone, I'm promoting them, I'm developing them, I'm retaining them, I'm rewarding and recognizing them, all of that information is there and it's sort of a one-stop shop for me. So providing resources like that, whether it's self-serve, off-the-shelf learning that they can have and take any time, providing opportunities for them to be a part of and lean into courageous conversations, doing that at the macro level, but then providing a resource guide for them to have that with their teams or one-on-one, I think is critically important as well. There are 4 characteristics of an inclusive leader. One, that leader has to be one that builds trust with their team. How do you teach your leaders to build trust? Number 2, they need to be transparent and really show up as their authentic themselves every day and, and tell their story. So how do you really create that opportunity for them and teach them to be able to do that? Number 3, they have to invest in their people. What are the conversations they're having, and are you equipping them with the right conversations at mid-year or year-end, or just in, you know, beyond performance reviews, but checking in and understanding what their employees are desiring to do next, and then being that advocate and that And then last but not least, you have to teach them how to have conversations that are courageous in nature. How do you create those moments where they can have those conversations with their teammates and their teams or with their peers or one-on-one as they need to? And understand that they don't have to have the answers. Understand that it is really about the support that they're lending to their team. It's about broadening perspectives. It's about saving space for others. Grace because we're not always going to get it right, but we want you to get out there and lean into those conversations and giving them the permission to do so. And as a leader, we're not expecting you to be perfect. We just want you to be brave and go out there and lead people in the right way. And I think that that's the piece that you have to be able to say to your leaders because a lot of times we're asking a lot of that frozen middle, a lot. But then we don't want to give them space to fail. And we have to be able to create an environment where they are okay with saying, you know what, I messed that up, I didn't mean for it to come out that way, and, and let's go ahead and let's think about how we can support each other. Or how do I learn better in this environment? What more do I need to know? So we have to give them that space.

Sandra, I, you know, I don't even— it's very rare that I'm speechless. But I'll tell you what, damn, you guys have got it down. All right, so there's so many questions I want to ask you. One is, let's, let's go to talk about conversations, courageous conversations. Um, how does this take place in your organization? In other words, does every manager have meetings with their staff And talk about diversity and inclusion, and how often do they do that?

Yeah, so that's a great question, right? So for us, we started conversations way back when the Pulse nightclub shootings happened. And, you know, for us, we in our company— and most companies have a culture, right, where you come in, everybody has their meetings with their teams weekly or every other week or so— and we always start our meetings the same way, you know, give it, you know, how are you doing, or we would start actually with recognition. Who has recognition? And we did that right after the Pulse nightclub shootings, and many employees did not feel good about that because so much had happened. And they felt like, how do you start a meeting with what recognition do you have when somebody— such horrible things just happened the night before? And that began our journey around courageous conversations. And since then, we've developed a really wonderful toolkit where you can have that where we've had them in town halls with thousands of employees. We've had them virtually for town halls with thousands, but we've also had them in teams, whether you have a team of 18 or 20 or 10 or in a group of 2. And so we've developed this toolkit that really helps our leaders and our managers really understand when we say courageous conversations, what do we mean? And it really starts with just laying some ground rules. Number 1, I already talked about it, save space for grace, right? You have to be able to do that and understand I'm not going to get it right all the time. I think another rule that you have to be mindful of is I don't have to have all the answers. It is not about me showing up trying to give and save and, and, and riding on my white horse, right, trying to do this. It's really about me trying to broaden my perspective and my understanding. We also have to be aware that everybody's not ready to have the conversation. And so what happens when a teammate of mine doesn't want to talk? It's okay. And they maybe they just want to reflect. And it's not about who's right or who's wrong. It's just around, you know, understanding that you're going to have to agree to disagree on some points. All perspectives are valued. All voices should be heard. And these are just some of the things that I think if you put some simple ground rules in place, It makes it so easy for your managers. I'm not saying that it is easy to do it, but it makes it easier for them and provides them with a safety net to go into those conversations. It is not easy having a conversation, but it can be as easy as, CB, how you doing today? I know a lot has happened over the last week. I could not imagine what it would be like to be you in this moment. And I'm not going to pretend to do so. I just want to let you know that I am here. It's as simple as that, CB. And how does that make you feel as an employee just to hear that?

Valued, belonging. But I do have to be the red herring here. Do you find that This honesty that you're talking about, this integrity that you're talking about, creating the sense of belonging that you're talking about— is there a fear from the Black population to reveal and repercussions?

Yeah, I, I think there is, right? Until you really can understand what's the motive here And you create an environment where people feel like this is a safe space and I can speak up without fear of retribution. And because we've been on this journey since, what, 2015 or so, it was so much easier for us when George— when the happenings happened last year with George Floyd. It was so much easier to not have started that journey at that time.

Yes. Yeah.

Because it was very authentic and it was honest and it was coming from a really pure place because we had already been tilling the soil, so to speak, over time. But even then, when that happened, had we not been tilling the soil, it would have been a huge miss for us not to engage in these conversations and not to start that journey of creating safe spaces for people to have conversations. And not to blame employees for being apprehensive or closed until they feel comfortable enough to speak up and speak out. And for some, they may never get to that place, but they have to understand it is there when they're ready. And that's what's important, right?

Yeah.

It may not be in a group setting, it may be in one-on-one, right, that I feel most comfortable. But the most important thing is not just the conversation, CB, because at some point I get tired of talking about it and I think we got to do something about it, right? It's like, okay, so what are we going to do? We've had all these conversations. What's the action behind it? And what can we do individually and then collectively?

I guess for me, it's thinking back to when I was in corporate America and these kinds of conversations were actually feeders to terminate people. And that's Still exist. I mean, let's, you know, um, we as a race are very suspicious of this whole movement. Um, and so my question for you is, the companies who didn't start back in 2015, '18, how do they start now? Because we are suspicious.

Yeah, I think, and, and like I say, with every right, right, you have to— you have employees who are apprehensive on all sides, to be honest. It's not just your Black and brown employees, and sometimes your white employees, because they're like, I'm not saying nothing, I'm not dipping my toe in that conversation, right? If I say the wrong thing, I could be fired for saying something that appears to be racist.

Yeah.

So it is everybody sort of very apprehensive, which is where I think from the top you've got to demonstrate this. And it's so important when we have our CEO sit on a call and he is so authentic and shares just what he's he's learned over the last year and where he stands on some of these issues and willing to demonstrate that authenticity and that vulnerability, it's helpful for everyone. When that leader says that this is a part of who we are moving forward and no one will feel that sense of retribution when they want to be able to have that conversation and want to be acknowledged for how they feel, I think it's about the environment that you're setting, quite honestly. And then people over time will see that, yes, this is a safe space. And it's not going to happen overnight. It didn't happen overnight for us. People were very apprehensive. In fact, we got lots of feedback where people said, listen, what happened to just come to work? What happened to that?

It becomes so extra difficult.

Yeah, why, why I gotta now come and bare my soul? I'm not— I don't I'm not trying to do that. So, so paycheck. Yeah, just give me my paycheck and let me come to work and do my job and go home.

Yes.

And that is okay. That is okay as well. So I think it's, it's a matter of just consistently— it's, it is, it is the hard grind of diversity and inclusion that really makes for a wonderful sort of, um, product that you'll get at some point, but you have to be patient in that, and you have to meet people where they are, and you have to understand that this is work and this is not a moment. And this is the issue that I fear some companies are going to enter into because they want to come in like lightning and be seen as the hippest, newest, dearest, you know, I'm— we're equity, we're inclusion, we're this, we're that, and they're popping off, but The, the hard work takes time. We've been in this journey, CB, for over 20 years. It takes time to get to where we are today, and it took time for us to get to this point. But it was the hard work, it was the steady push, it was sometimes backing up 2 spaces to move forward 5, losing some ground to gain some ground, willing to just get out there and try some things, understanding we may fail, but goddamn it, we're gonna fail fast and keep this thing moving.

Love it.

You know what I'm saying? And so I think companies have to be in it for the long haul.

I hear you. I completely understand. It's my mantra. And inevitably you get, well, but we need it fixed now. You can start, but you can't get to the finish line yet.

You know?

Right. So another question I have, and oh gosh, okay. So many questions. Do you find, or does your CEO find, or do your leaders find that opening up this discourse and self-revealing weakens their authority in leading an organization?

Absolutely not. I think it has made them appear human. It has deepened the trust.

Okay, but right there, made them appear to be more human. We have for eons now been drilled that the leader shall not be human. You know, it's like Roblox.

AI.

We shall make money and not be human. Even the laws support that, you know. And I'm not saying let's go to sexual harassment, but don't even ask anybody how they're feeling. If they're out physically, don't ask why. And if you don't ask why, can you really ask, well, how are you feeling when you come back? Because that might lead to a discussion about their medical condition, and we can't do that.

So— We live in a different time, CB, and I think that that's one of the things we have to acknowledge, that after what we've been through last year— I, and I can't speak for all humans obviously, but people are different. People have had time to stop, literally stop in their tracks and witness some things and finally say, wait a minute. Although there were things that were going on all the time, people have spent time with their families, and people have also understood that, wait a minute, this work thing, I gotta do this different.

Yes.

And I think for a leader not to recognize that piece of it is going to be detrimental to them. And it doesn't weaken you to show that you're human. And I think even today, the way employees look at leaders— and I can tell you how we look at our leader— the fact that, um, I could tell you about a commercial that Brian did. And, um, at the— in the— I don't know if you've seen it, but it was one of the first times we had shown our CEO in a Bank of America commercial.

No.

He's, he's in a car, he's driving to the office. This is pre-COVID, and he's talking about Bank of America. And he gets out of the car and he says, I'm Brian Moynihan and I work for Bank of America. Now my 16— who wasn't 16 at the time— son saw that and he said, the CEO works for Bank of America? literally changed the way he looked at Brian, our CEO. He thought it was the coolest thing to hear. This is the head saying, I work for Bank of America.

Wow.

And that changes the perspective of who you are as a leader. And people even within our company Responded like, oh my gosh, this is so amazing. Yeah, because here he wasn't saying, you work for me.

Yeah, yeah.

He was saying, I work with you, I'm with you.

I'm looking for that.

I am you.

Oh, I want to see it on YouTube.

It's, it's amazing. And that's all he says. It's nothing like where he turns to the camera. It's nothing. It's, it's just that one little statement. I'm Brian Moynihan and I work for Bank of America. And it just means the world to people. That's why language matters. That's why authenticity matters. That's why representation matters. Because it tells me, I see you, I am you, and you matter. So when leaders can really show that vulnerability, that's what they're saying to their people.

So I, I have— I work with a colleague of mine who has a concern that all of this is feminizing leadership at the top. What's your response to that?

Yeah, I just, I, I, I hate to even respond to that because, uh, there are just certain things that I have made a point to say maybe I should keep my mouth shut. That's the craziest thing I ever, I've ever heard. Like, I Honestly, because you are a, a human, then it makes it somehow less of a man to say that I am human?

Yes.

And that to me, I, I, I, I can't— I have no words. That, that's what I'll say to that.

I love that. I can't wait to play this part for him.

I, I just have no words. And then to relate it to like a woman, like being— I just— it's so many things in that that I can just unpack, CB, for another call.

Let—

call me later after this broadcast and, uh, me and you can chat offline.

Okay, I won't get you in trouble.

Don't get me in trouble, CB. I have to keep my job.

Oh, we just heard from Carolyn Boyce who says Great points on leadership, Saundra. Thank you, Carolyn. So there was something I wanted to ask you now, and you made me laugh and I forgot, in terms of leadership. So let me just take a few notes, go back to my notes here. You talk about it being connected to a business strategy. Now, Harvard Business Review published an article that said, basically, I'm paraphrasing, enough with making a business case for D&I. I always thought, before I heard you, the same thing. You know, this has to be a human case and not a business case.

Yeah.

case. But when I heard you speak at Carolyn's platform, Chief Financial Officer of the Association, and you talked about tying it to the business case, I thought, shame on you, CB, you missed that one. You better listen to this lady. Oh, thank you. So tell me, tell everyone, your feeling about tying it to the business case because it is so powerful.

Yeah. Listen, I agree with you. In a perfect world, we wouldn't even need D&I. We don't live in that world. We don't. I think you do. For us at Bank of America, if you ask my CEO, what's the business case for doing D&I? He would say, listen, for us, it's just the right thing to do at this point. But I do have to help you to understand that There is a business case for D&I, and you need to understand this because it is so critically important in how you drive your business, but also how you develop your business strategy. Your business strategy should be directly— D&I and business strategy should be interwoven. It shouldn't be separate and apart. But there are 4 real reasons why you should be doing D&I. Number 1, your company will be 30 to 40% more profitable. That research has been out there for 10+ years. Your company will be more profitable, bar none. But let me tell you why your company is going to be more profitable. Number 2, you'll have more engaged employees. Your employees are more engaged when there is a clear diversity and inclusion strategy. You have the right resources executed against it and the tactics that are being done, not just lip service, but you're going to have more engaged employees. Bank of America's ESAT employee satisfaction survey results this year, 91%.

Get out of here!

Get out of here! That's right. And don't think we did that because we sell the most checking accounts, okay? So again, our, our D&I index— 80— I mean, our D&I index, yeah, 88%, the highest it's been, the highest it's been. And for some companies, they ain't ever seen 90-some percent. They've never seen it.

No. No.

And part of it is because we have a clear D&I strategy. The other thing is, the third thing is, is your employee, your, um, clients and communities, they're going to want to do more business with you, and they are happier clients because they do their research. And I have another story. I was, um, at a session in Oklahoma City. Um, we did an ROI of D&I for our market. Um, and at the end, I was on a panel discussion. At the end of that panel discussion, I— we talked a little bit about diversity and inclusion at Bank of America. There were some other external companies there. The chamber was there. The mayor was there. But at the end, this young lady came up to me and she said, hey, Sandra, I'm a client of Bank of America. So I braced myself, right? Because what do we do wrong? What do I need to do? You know, how do I fix it? And what she said to me was, you know, I do have an account with Bank of America, Sandra, she said, but after hearing you today, I'm going to move all my money to Bank of America.

You know, I was waiting for you to finish because, you know, one of the questions I remember that I wanted to ask you is, how does your CEO allow you to speak so freely about what you're doing and what's going on, the pluses and minuses? And then I thought to myself, this is one smart man. Because these are— listening to you, I bet you there are more people that are now going to go out and open accounts at Bank of America than any ad can do.

That's right. And listen, that's not even why we do it, CB. And I'm not here to conjure up clients. I'm here to just talk to you about culture and what we're doing as a company. And then the fourth thing why it should be a business imperative is you're more innovative. I mean, you talked about, I carry it around in my pocket, I do this, I do that. You're more innovative because you've got those voices at the table who can speak to all communities, and that's really what you want. But it's not just those things just don't happen, but that strategy has to have clear objectives and goals and targets and aspirational goals so that you can be successful in all those areas. So it doesn't just happen because you check the box and say, I'm just gonna appoint someone to do this role part-time in my company, right? It happens because you are clearly dedicated to it and you're in it for the long haul. Not to say you have to take 20-plus years like Bank of America, but companies like us, we're sharing what we're doing. We're giving you sort of the secret sauce.

Yes.

Here's what I learned is that All tides float all boats. It's important to us that you are just as good as well. You understand that? That's what we need. We need everyone to be in this fight, and we need everyone to be a part of this. We need every company thinking about their communities and speaking up and speaking out. And we want you to do more than what we're doing. Trust me, we're not in it to say, well, who can give the most here. We, we put in our $1 billion pledge and other companies came out. Fantastic. Join us. That's what we want to see.

What pledge is this? Tell us about it.

It's a $1 billion commitment that we have to really increase and enhance color, um, communities of color, right? And we're doing it to really sort of elevate and, um, the work that's already really started around economic equality, around education equality, around housing and jobs and upskilling talent in Black and brown communities, investing in our HBCUs. We know that there are places and companies that have been doing this, and we know that there is much work to be done, and we're just doing our small part to accelerate that, that progress. And other companies are now committing and joining into that, and that is what makes this So beautiful.

How do they join? Let's, let's get this out now.

Well, not join, but how do they make their own commitments around communities of color or impacted communities, or think about the way that they want to engage in some of the, um, social and economic, um, challenges that our country has been in, you know, has, has experienced. And so it's not about joining per se Bank of America and hitching your wagon to what we're doing, but it's creating your own wagon train against what's happening around us, which is social injustice, right? And so for some companies, they may decide to do it in a different way. That's okay, right? But we definitely want to make sure that, you know, we're happy to share because we realize that we have had some misses and some pitfalls along the way, and we want to be able to help other companies be able to do what they need to do and have a much further running start than what we did.

Sandra, I don't know if you realize this, but you have just talked your way into being a keynote speaker for the Workplace Equity and Equality Conference that's coming up June 21st, 22nd, and 23rd. I'm doing this publicly so you can't say no.

I know. CB, call me later. I told you to call me after this.

No, no, I'm putting it right out there. I love it.

I love it. I love it.

Because we're doing something very unique. We have looked at the landscape. And one of the things that we see is the lack of inclusion of efforts to a common whole within industry. spaces. And we would love to see that change. We would love to see, like, there is a group of industry, for example, the banking industry, the technology industry, that's focused on seeding talent and sharing talent. Yes, that's awesome. And so it's, it's a workshop. The whole thing is a workshop, a series of workshops Workshops where we focus on what's working, what's not working in D&I programs, and how do we come together as industries. So, kid, you're it.

You're it. You say that to all your guests, CB. No, I don't.

No, I don't. But, you know, I, I can't wait to read your book.

Oh my goodness, too much pressure, too much pressure.

No, no, no, no, I'm throwing down the challenge. Yes.

I appreciate that. Thanks for the nudge.

Yeah, I mean, all of the interviews that you do, you impart such incredible wisdom, and that really needs to be documented. But it's not just the wisdom, it's the passion Thank you. It's so special. And oh, I want to tear up because you just— you come right at the heart of the matter, um, the empathic system in our bodies. And that's what we do under WE, is that we are not looking to change minds, we're looking to to inform mine. We're not looking for shame and blame. We're looking for collaboration. And, um, if you don't believe in what we're saying, that's okay. But now you've made that decision based upon some true experiential data.

That's right.

And that's the absolute key, we feel, to moving We're really strong supporters of the work that Dr. Richard Boye-Ayize, and I know I'm pronouncing his last name wrong, is doing in his research on empathetic listening and touching the nerve so that it provides a space for people to choose to change or not.

That's right.

Our thinking heads are not working. You know, it's like going into a movie. There's a few people that remember line by line of a movie. My husband is one of them. He literally memorized— I mean, you know, seriously, I have problems with that, right?

So good at it.

And he'll say to me, but don't you remember that scene? And I'll go, no. But you said once I said, I can tell you the theme of the movie and the outcome. Line by line? I don't have space in my head for that. So the same thing with D&I. We want to create that space in the head so that people have a more tangible opportunity to make decisions. Carolyn says, when Sandra spoke at our CFO Leadership Council, Chief Financial Officer. Thank you, Carolyn. Leadership Council program. One of my members called their Bank of America representative and stated that they loved what Sandra had to say on D&I. Wow.

Yeah, that was awesome. Thank you for that reminder, Carolyn. It makes a difference.

Wow.

It makes a difference.

You are doing such impactful work in talking about the bank and its values and its commitment to execute against those values.

That's right.

Let me just see if I have any— you talked about some of the tools. You know, I think it would be a good idea if Bank of America wrote A guidebook, toolkit guidebook for other organizations.

Well, CB, I can one-up you. So we did publish last year, and we have published this year, our Human Capital Management Report, which basically tells you all the things— not all, but it gives you a really good overview of what we're doing around diversity and inclusion, how we measure, who we are, where our talent sits, who sits on our board and how that's made up. So that we have already published. And we're looking at some of the other things that we do internally, like our courageous conversations. How do we take that and make it into a toolkit that can be leveraged externally as well? We also have published out there our fact sheets. We have a fact sheet on Black African American employees and what we're doing. We have a fact sheet on Asian veterans, LGBTQ. LGBTQ, you name it, the fact sheet is out there. One on women. So we have all of that information out there on our bankofamerica.com website where you can go and you can really see some great work that we're doing and take what you need.

Wow, I am so glad to hear this. I had no idea. Yeah, okay, I'm there. I'm gonna pull in some of that data. For the weed business.

Yes, absolutely. Leverage it.

I am so happy to hear that. And definitely we're going to pull in some of that data for the conference.

Absolutely. I think that's perfect.

Okay, great. Oh, so it's 12 o'clock already.

I know, it went so fast.

I know, I know. Well then you just have to, uh, be part of the conference. That's all there is to it. Done deed. Shake hands on that and drop the mic.

I love it. I love it. I love it.

Audience, I am so glad you tuned in. I am sorry that you missed this on LinkedIn, um, in the here and now, but know that we're gonna publish it on LinkedIn so that you get a chance to watch it. And I'm so glad that people were Um, um, committed enough to go and listen to this on YouTube because I'm seeing all the, the questions that are coming in from YouTube. So wow, that, that just warms my heart that you sourced out another way to hear Sandra today. It's fantastic.

Yeah, same here. I want to thank everyone as well, CB, because I know everybody's time is so valuable And I'm just a Southern girl from Mississippi who happens to work for a great company. And I am so grateful just for this opportunity. And thank you so much for inviting me and for Carolyn for introducing us. I appreciate you, Carolyn, for doing that. But, but I'm humbled to have been here today, and I hope that whatever we shared can help someone in some way. And thank you again.

Not only help someone, but what you shared will help organizations. Yeah, and I will give one other little plug that starting next Wednesday at 5:30 Mountain Time, if you're on Clubhouse, my new program is Challenges That Black American or People of Color Have in Facing and Dealing with Leadership. Challenges that they are facing see in dealing with leadership, because I think that some of the challenges are unique, and they are some of the things that we want to answer to. So look for my, you know, link, follow me on Clubhouse, and please join in at 5:30 next Wednesday. And Andrea says, thank you both, always a pleasure. Callan says, I love We both— we have a fan club.

I love it. Thank y'all so much.

Thank you. And don't forget to tune in, tune in on Tuesday and next Thursday. And, um, we look forward to seeing you then. Go successfully and go with intent, go with integrity, and go with inclusion. See you next week.