Challenges of the C-Suite with Author Todd Cherches, Episode 76

Hello everybody, guess who it is? It's CB Bowman live welcoming you into the new year of 2022. Damn it, I got it right, I didn't say 2021. Hey, I missed you guys so much, and this year we have amazing guests Oh my God, you have got to tune in every Tuesday. And we're gonna sneak in some past hits like Dori Clark, Marshall Goldsmith, in case you missed it. We'll do those as fillers when I'm off with one of my speaking engagements, so you won't miss a thing. And new news, I hope you're following me on LinkedIn because I CB's coming out with the newsletter. Oh my God, can you keep up with me? I mean, seriously, I am the person to keep up with.

Truth.

So I want to get busy because I want to introduce an amazing guy. And truth and transparency, you know, I always give that. He is a member of MG100. That's Marshall Goldsmith 100. So, and so am I, because, you know, you saw the last interview with Marshall. I'm his daughter, right? So I want to introduce Todd. Todd— wait, let me get it on the screen— wrote this amazing book, Visual Leadership. And I have to tell you, you know, I get books from a lot of people. They would like for me to interview. And honestly, I can't read that fast. I'm dyslexic. You guys know that, right? That's not a secret. I am so dyslexic, it's not funny. When I moved to my new house, I got lost getting here after I had moved in, right? Um, the way that he has written this book is so easy to digest, and there's such good pearls of wisdom You know, he has sort of like a little cartoon at the beginning of the chapter, but don't let that fool you. There's some serious wisdom in here. And then he does each chapter because you could literally read the book in an hour because each chapter has a review at the end. Right. And the way that he's positioned the review is big lesson. From the chapter, the big question.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, your insights. So you get to do some homework and your action. He's holding you accountable through his book. I've never seen a book that does that other than a workbook, right? But this is not a workbook. This is a true treasure for you to read. So Without visual leadership, how potent is that? You can hold accountable your leaders visually. What's that about? Well, we're gonna let Todd— by the way, secret, I'm a graduate of Parsons School of Design, so you know, between that and my work in courageous leadership You know, when I saw this title, I said, let me get this book. Okay, so without further ado, Todd, please introduce yourself.

Hi, CB. Thank you for having me. I noticed— I don't know if that check in the book is your bookmark, or— I don't want people to think I paid you to have me on your show, so I just want to make sure that, uh, there's no payola involved.

There is no payola here. This is my Refund, which I just dropped from my Rx plan.

All right, all right, just wanted to clarify that in case there was any doubt. Yeah, I don't want everyone to think each book comes with a check. That's like— I don't want to like mistake people.

Wouldn't that be cool if it did?

That would be nice.

Yeah, I didn't even think about that. I was using it as a bookmark. Now I took it out and I lost my spot. Oh well.

Now you have to start all over from the beginning.

Todd, it's a dis.

Thank you, Stevie. Yeah, so I'm based in New York City, and, uh, I, um, my company is called Big Blue Gumball. We do management leadership, executive coaching, training, and, and, um, and, uh, consulting. And I also teach leadership at NYU and Columbia. At NYU, I teach leadership in the HR master's program. I've been doing that for 11 years. And at Columbia, I teach in a few different programs, including leadership for what for Broadway stage managers in their MFA Theater program. So in that one, I get to have a little extra fun, use my Shakespeare background, throw in some show tunes. I don't tap dance or anything, but I get to do some theatrical things in that program that I don't do in my HR program.

Wait a second, you know, we've gotta have an MG100 show because you've got you with Shakespeare and theater, You've got Elliot, who's a producer. You've got Johannes, who is a songwriter, and you have—

Dori's a producer.

Dori's a producer, and who am I, Howard, John Bondoni plays the piano. We could do it.

We have a very multi-talented group, definitely.

Yeah, and I could design the stage, right?

Yes, I'd love to hear from a design thinking perspective your thoughts on the book and what resonated with you. What's interesting about the book, I divide it into 4 areas of visual thinking: using visual imagery and drawing, using mental models and frameworks, using metaphor and analogy, and using storytelling and humor. And different people latch on to different things. Some people say, oh, I love the models. Other people say, I love the storytelling. So it's interesting. And each chapter is only about 5 pages max. So They're really quick hits. So, so it's interesting just to get people's feedback on what resonated with them.

Well, what resonated with me, as I mentioned, was the layout, that I could scan it quickly because I'm in the middle of writing my book and running the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches and speaking. And so I just brought back my speaking career. this year, it's gonna be, you know, massive. And so I have to do things quickly, right, to keep up with myself. And so to be able to scan it, I opened this book at first. Before I opened it, I said, oh God, another book I have to read. I can't, I can't do this anymore. I'm not writing my own book. I'm reading everybody else's book. And then I opened it up and I said, oh my God, it's scannable. I love this. So I could just Pick and choose. And I'll tell you what, um, the, the first thing that I love is page 72. And so what's the beginning of the chapter? Chapter 12, Future Self: 2 Questions That Can Forever Change Your Life. And before— so I have to read to the audience. I'm not over-promoting the book, right?

I appreciate that.

Okay. In review, this is the part, you know, where he puts in color and— there, okay. And it says, before you do anything that you might possibly regret later, for example, reactively sending out an impulse email, turning down a life-changing opportunity, or overeating yourself, ask yourself whether your future self will thank you or blame you for this decision. This is so powerful, and this relates to the work that I'm doing about courage. So my work about courage is teaching people to leap first and then figure out where they're gonna land. And so I thought this was so beautifully said, I might have to borrow this from you. I'll give you credit.

Oh, sure.

Okay.

Chapter 52 is called Taking the Leap. So you may want to, if you haven't gotten to it yet, you just may want to jump to page 270. And it's all about leaping before you look. And I tell a story about when I was like 10 years old, some rich family members invited us over to their pool club on Long Island. And I was like 10 years old. I climbed up to the high diving board because I saw all the other kids jumping off. And I got to the very edge and I looked down. I'm like, oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God, I'm not doing this. And I went to turn back, but all the other kids had already climbed up the ladder. And they were like, will you jump already? Will you go? And there was no turning back. And I just, not only did I jump, but I dove headfirst. And then what do you think I did the rest of the day? I got right back up the ladder and I did it. My parents had to drag me off there. So had I turned back and not done it, I never would have done it again. So that's a great metaphor from my childhood about, think about those times you're standing at the precipice on the edge of a cliff or at the edge of a diving board, where you could turn back or dive in and, you know, dive in, right? Or jump in, right? And then once you do, you're more likely to try it again. Once you turn back, you may never go back again. I have so many real-world business stories and personal stories from my career that relate to that. But that's just one simple story about going in or going home.

I love that metaphor, and I'm going to use it. I might have to just copy this entire chapter.

You're more than welcome to.

So now I lost my place. Okay, but so I want to talk about that leaping business, but before we do that, so then in the review, the big question is, what are some choices or decisions you've made in the past in your work or life that you are thankful that you made, and what are some that you regret? How am I asking the 2 future self questions earlier On have influenced— I think I read it wrong— have influenced the choices that you made? In other words, how? Uh, and how can you use these questions to make better decisions in the future? Then you fill in your insight and your action. And I have to tell you, I've had to make some tough decisions in life, some really tough ones, including life or death.

Yeah.

And I personally feel that there's no wrong decision in making a leap. The wrong decision is in not making a leap.

Yes.

Because you can always— I know that you talked about the ladder, but you could always say, excuse me, I've got to go back down, right? You can always go back.

Yeah.

But when you're going back this time, you're going back with wisdom that you gained.

Yeah.

Right? And so I'm very anxious to read this chapter. You know, as I think about people making courageous decisions, I think, why do they focus on the negative? When you have a business partner— and I've had this experience— when you've had a business partner or somebody you're very close to in your business that's helping you all of a sudden decides, hey, I'm out of here. You feel devastated. You feel like, how can I carry on? But I'm here to tell you all that it gets better. With every loss, you get better.

Mm-hmm.

if you choose not to focus on the loss, but choose to focus on the lessons learned, and how you can go forward, and look for stronger partners and stronger relationships. You know, my neighbor who was Italian in New York— in New Jersey, when I lived in New Jersey, she always said to me, CB, in relationships, there's always a time Always a place and always an expiration mark. And that's what we have to be prepared for, no?

Yeah, I mean, one of the things I talk about in my NYU class is a lot of times we talk in the HR field around about having a career path. And I say it's not a path, it's a roller coaster.

It's ups and downs.

A path implies that there's stepping stones and it's a walk in the park and the weather's beautiful and the birds are chirping. My career has been a roller coaster of ups and downs, twists and turns, exhilarating highs, terrifying plummets. Get me off this ride, right? So the metaphors we choose kind of defines or describe our situations. And as you were talking, I was just thinking, you reminded me of the Nelson Mandela quote, I never lose. I either win or I learn, right?

Ooh, I love that.

Write that one down.

Yes.

So, but we also need to learn from our wins too, right? 'Cause if we just win, win, win, but we don't think about why we win, we're eventually gonna lose. So it's important to always be reflective and think about, you know, why did we win? Why did we lose? What did we learn? But if you look at every experience, you know, win, lose, or draw as a learning experience, then you gain something, right? And you just keep moving forward and you move that the next time because you could do the same thing over and over again, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to win every time. So we constantly need to be making adjustments and constantly be improving ourselves.

I like that a lot because we do, you know, we get into this mode, or at least let me speak for myself, where It is such hard work to move up and move out that when you get this win, you say, oh God, thank goodness, let me just, let me just savor in the win.

Yeah.

And we don't analyze how we got there, what, you know, what are we gaining, and what are the next steps. And I have to tell you, when I was at General Foods— so I came from the big guys, right, in marketing and branding— after each product launch, we would do something called lessons learned. It was so important. And this— we did this whether the product was a failure or a success.

Mm-hmm.

And I remember sitting in a meeting when I launched Honey Bunches of Oats. And we thought, is it gonna be a success? We don't know, but so far the launch is good. Well, that has turned into a mega little empire on its own. You've got different flavors, et cetera, et cetera.

Mm-hmm.

It's so important to look at those lessons because it allows you not to replicate Verbatim. It allows you to take lessons and apply them to other situations.

Yeah, yeah. And it's in one of the chapters later in my book, I call it— it's called Reflection, Introspection, and Connection. So reflection is about looking backward, like, where did we come from? How did we get here? Introspection is about looking inward at yourself. Connection is about how can I take what I learned and connect it to another context, to the outside world? So again, just like you're talking about, if we look at everything as a learning opportunity, and also, you know, that I was thinking about too, Marshall Goldsmith's What Got You Here Won't Get You There, my favorite book of all time, right behind me. On the COVID is a guy on a ladder. He is standing on the top rung of the bottom ladder, but he can't even reach the bottom rung of the next ladder, right? So there's that huge gap there. So how do you get— how do you close that gap? How do you get from, you know, what got you to where you are to where you want to be? You could do that by standing on the shoulders of someone else. You could do that by stretching yourself. There's all kinds of things you could do. But I love that visual metaphor on the COVID of the book because so many people focus on the title, but they don't even notice that ladder image that's right next to it. And I love that. So that's a great— the metaphor of the ladder and what's that next rung of that next ladder for you and what do you need to do to get there, right? It's constantly learning, constantly growing, constantly changing and taking risks. Like you said, having the courage to try and to fail and to learn and to Keep taking risks and, and growing as you go along.

Yeah, you know, I think that book is such a powerful book, that and The First 90 Days, right? Um, because as we're talking about that distance between past success or failure and your next try, whether it's going to be success or failure, it doesn't matter. What matters is that you're able to reach that next ladder and keep going and trying and climbing, you know. Um, and I wish— Dori does a lot, our friend Dori Clark does a lot of work in that area, you know, of moving up. The Long Game, which she just published, is phenomenal.

Which is also right, it's right above—

I see it, I see it! Well, I can't wait for my book to be up there.

I can't wait, I can't wait. Just keeping— you can see John Baldoni's Grace, Chester Elton and Adrian's Leading with Gratitude. It's so hard just to keep up with our MG100 group because everyone's so prolific.

Yes.

I don't know if you know, I've been reading one business book a week since 1998, so that's 23 years. So I've been reading about 50 books a year, um, which is over 1,000. In fact, I'm putting— this year I'm putting out my list. I didn't read 50 books this year, I read 101. This is my list of books that I read over the— and So I'm gonna be putting this out as a blog post within the next week.

Can you make sure that I'm on your blog post? Because I would love the members of ACEC, Association of Corporate Executive Coaches, to see that list.

Yeah, I'll make sure to send you 30 of the— at least 30-something of the— 37 of the books are by MG100 members. So that's how prolific this group has been over the last—

That's outrageous. Outrageous. I have to tell you, I feel like a small potato in that group. Dial it up this year.

Well, I can't wait to add your book to my collection.

Thank you, thank you. Hey, let's talk about how do you— because you've done a great job. You teach, you have your company. Give us the name again.

Big Blue Gumball.

How did you come up with that name, first of all?

Well, it's a metaphor. Here's the name officially on the, uh—

Wow, I love it. Yeah.

So the Big Blue Gumball represents— it's a metaphor that represents the world. The Earth, the globe, is like a big blue gumball. My brother and I came up with it many years ago. And then when we launched our company in 2010, our motto is making the world a better place one leader at a time. And to us, everyone is a leader. So we start with that premise, that foundational premise. And our job is to help people to find that leader within themselves. Because if you think about it, even if you're not a manager, you don't have direct reports, you still have to manage and lead your own life, right? So what are those management— in fact, one of the chapters in my book talks about in what ways are you the CEO of your life, the COO of your life, the CFO of your life, the CIO, the head of HR of your life. So you are almost like your own organization. And what are the things that you have to do to strategize, to come up with your own personal vision, mission? What are your values? What's the culture that you create around you? So If we get people to think about themselves as an organization. And so you are the big blue gumball in your own life. And our job is to help people to maximize their performance, their productivity, and their potential. So that's my little pitch on what we do and how we do it.

I love it. Okay, so then let's talk about those of us that want to get to your level. Okay.

Oh, you're beyond my level. I see what you've done. So But I'm honored just to be in that same conversation.

Thank you, my dear. Look, um, so what, what's your advice for people who want to move up in their business? I'm not going to say in their career because we're not talking about careers here. We're talking about business. And visual leadership, I get it, but what— give me something tangible. That people can use to move up. So let's take me for an example. I want to get back into my speaking circuit, right? But I've been out of it for eons. How am I going to get a speakers bureau to pay attention to me? How am I going to do that?

That's a good— that's a question outside of my expertise. When you find out, let me know, because everything— I don't have a speakers bureau, I don't have an agent. Everything I do is by invitation or application. I did my first TEDx talk a couple of years ago, which was amazing. It's called The Power of Visual Thinking. So those are some of the highlights. But the idea behind visual leadership, just so you know, and the title, it's one word with a single— a lot of people don't even see this or notice it. It's a single word with a shared capital L. And a lot of people write it as 2 words. The idea behind visual leadership is that who you are and how you lead is inseparable from the lens through which you see the world. We both wear glasses, right? And we know if you take your glasses off, you can't see anything, right? I'm nearsighted. I can't see the screen right now without my glasses on. So do we have the right prescription? As a leader, sometimes we need to look through a telescope into the future. As a manager, sometimes we need to look at a microscope looking at the details, right? So what's the lens? Are you seeing things clearly? Martin Luther King Jr. talked about, I have a dream, right? He had a vision of an idealized future state. different from and better than his current reality, he didn't say, I have a business plan, I have an Excel spreadsheet, right? He painted a picture through his amazing visual communications and his use of metaphor and alliteration and language to paint a picture of a better world, right? So how could we do that as leaders? So you as a speaker, what's the picture that you're painting of the future? What do you want people to see? And one of my mottos is, in fact, here's a— What's your motto? My motto is, how do you get people to see what you're saying? How do you frame an idea in your own mind so that people will say, I see what you're saying? And that's one of the most challenging things that we need to do in any— whether it's in business or in life or in relationships. How do you get the other person to see what's in your head? I mentioned I was a Shakespeare major, and in Hamlet, Shakespeare says, I see my father in my mind's eye. He didn't know if it was a ghost or an apparition, but he says to Horatio, I think I see my father in my mind's eye. What does that mean? It's a metaphor that we see something in our head, but how can you get other people to see what's in your head? That's one of the biggest challenges that we all face. So that's what I would say is like we need to think about reflectively how do we see the world and how do we get other people to see it. And one other point I just want to mention about the rainbow-colored eye. The rainbow represents diversity, inclusion, belonging, equity, and the fact that no one in the world sees the world through the same lens that you do. And we need to flip the eye and turn it around so that we could see the world with empathy and compassion from other people's point of view to help them become the leader that they could be, because leadership is not about us, it's about other people. So those are just a few concepts I wanted to mention related to visual leadership and how leaders in the C-suite can have the courage— you know, talk about courage— to see things from other people's point of view.

So I wanted to tag on this. I was looking for my notes. Uh, our dear friend Tasha Ehrlich, I mean, talk about a woman and a half, I'll tell you. Um, she came to speak at my WPP group. WPP stands for Women's Power Pack group. And so I lead this group of women that are really kick-ass women, right? And one of the things that we were challenged with is to up our numbers in terms of professional speaking engagements. That's what we're focused on for this year. And Tasha came on, who, you know, is a great speaker, and she said to us, okay, then you— how are you branding yourself as a speaker? And we all looked at each other and said, well, you know, this is our, uh, one-sentence descriptor of Mm-hmm. Right? And she said, there are 2 things that you want to do as a speaker. You can choose either one, or there's great power in having both. And so I'm gonna say to you, one of the things to do, whether you want to be a great speaker like myself, become known as that, Or you want to expand your business, whatever courage you need is you must network with great minds.

Mm-hmm.

So she said there are 2 things. One, first of all, wrapping this all up in a nice package since we just came out of the holidays, is you have to solve a need, right, for your audience. And she said, you can take 2 lanes. One is a burning approach, like, what, what do they have to solve immediately? What's killing them? Mm-hmm.

Right?

Or you can take an aspirational approach. Here's where I want to be. Here's where I want my company to be. And we thought that that was so powerful because it gave us absolute clarity on how we want to position ourselves as speakers. What's the offer, right?

Yeah.

As Simon Sinek says, what's the why, right? And so I think answering my question to you, it's about being with the right people to get those pearls of wisdom that allow you to move to the next step. And I think being a visual leader You have to have that coalition of people that you can listen to. You don't have to agree with them, but, you know, it creates sparkles in your head.

Yeah.

Right? I used to say to people when I was a career coach, and they would say to me, I don't know what I want to do in life— we hear that a lot.

Mm-hmm.

And I would say, well, what are you doing to figure it out? Well, I'm just trying to figure it out in my head. No, that doesn't work. There's no stimuli. Yeah, it was stimuli, you would have figured it out already. So go out and get stimuli. So we're talking about the same thing.

That's one of the models in my book that That's on page 91, my passion skill matrix model. It basically plots out in the matrix, what are you— what are your skills and what are your interests, right? So if you're in the upper right corner, in the— in your sweet spot, that's when what you love to do and what you're good at are in alignment. Your growth zone is you like— have an interest or you like something, but you're not good at it yet. The lower right is your default zone, you're good at it, but you don't love it. And your failure zone is I don't like it, and I'm not good at it. And I to get out of this box. So if you just use some kind of framework like that, and it helps you to simplify complexity, and that's the magic of mental models, is that, you know, we always talk about thinking outside the box, but in order to think outside the box, you need to have something inside the box, right? So putting something in some kind of matrix or some kind of model will help you to simplify the complexity and help you to see things more clearly. So the model doesn't solve the problem for you, but it helps you gain clarity so you can see possibilities that you might not have otherwise seen. So Everything that you're talking about, I think, is right on the money. I always frame it as, what do you want to be known as the guru of or the go-to person for? Right?

Oh, I like that. I like that.

So, um, because again, there's a million people who do coaching or leadership or communications, but what's your differentiator, right? Just like Honey Bunches of Oats, right? Why do you pick that box of cereal off the shelf out of all the other ones on the shelf? There's got to be a reason for it. So what's the hook? What's Why does someone buy you? Why does someone say, I need CB Bowman and there's no one else who could do this? What is it about you and your personal brand and your reputation and your knowledge and experience that you're the one and only one who could do this? So what is that thing for you? I think that's how we differentiate ourselves. That's how we get more speaking engagements. Like for me, I develop a brand as the visual guy, right? There's a lot of people who do graphic recording and things related to design thinking. I don't do that. And there's a million people who do leadership. But I'm really the only one that I know of who, if you think of a Venn diagram, where applies visual thinking concepts to the practice of leadership in this fresh new way to help people to see things from a different perspective. So it's like, what is that hook for you? I think that's what helps you get speaking engagements where someone says, oh, that sounds really interesting. We've never had someone talk about that before. We want to learn more.

I totally agree. keynote, uh, in Spain a couple of weeks ago. It was called The Courage to Leap. And people said, what is courage? That's not— I'm sorry, I said people said— how I opened this, I said to them, what is courage? And do you know that there was no consistent definition of what courage is? Which then in itself takes a lot. Yeah, I—

well, I sent you that image of the Cowardly Lion, right? So as soon as— as soon as courage— that's the image, the visual image from all our childhoods. We all grew up watching Wizard of Oz. Yes, you hear courage, right? It's like you think Wizard of Oz. So what is that? But it's an intangible quality that's very— as you said, it's very hard to define.

Exactly. And I laughed when you sent me that because my dog is a Cairn Terrier, which is Toto from The Wizard of Oz. And I said, did he know that?

Cosmic connections.

Yes, exactly. So, okay, look, we've got a couple of comments I want to make sure to get in. Um, Mason Harris, author, speaker, says layout, color, and even paper quality— oh, the content is exceptional as well. So, and he sends a, a picture of something that he's done. I can't really see it.

So Mason's the author of The Chutzpah Advantage, so I just want to give him a plug in the shower. It came out last year.

You wrote the intro?

I wrote the foreword for his book. Yes.

Yeah, it's funny because, uh, I met this person Mason on LinkedIn.

Oh, okay.

And she wrote me back and she said, oh, I see you're interviewing Todd. I know him. He wrote the intro. I'm like, small world.

Yes, it's a he, by the way. But yes, Mason.

Okay. And I thought, I love that. I wonder how many people know what chutzpah means. So I got it right away. I'm a New Yorker. I love the title.

Chutzpah has a lot to do with courage, right? So there's a lot of overlap— courage, confidence, assertiveness. So there's definitely some connections there between those two C— those words that start with C. Yes.

Yes. I love it. And then Zach, I'm not going to attempt to pronounce your name, Zach, because I think it's Greek.

Is it Demopoulos? I think he's— okay, he's another friend of mine. All my friends are tuning in, so, uh, that's great.

I think you front-loaded this. Okay, it says, I agree, excellent quality and content. Uh, I just posted on LinkedIn today about Todd's book. The illustrations scream out at you. Look at me. And Deborah, Deborah is writing. Is Deborah a friend of yours too?

I know a lot of Deborahs, so I don't know which one.

Deborah Gilbola?

Yes, yes, Deborah Gilbola. Yes, Deborah.

Yes, okay. She writes, Toss—

She's a doctor and a speaker, so she's a very interesting and dynamic character.

Oh, what kind of doctor?

You'll have to ask her. You'll have to ask her.

Okay, Deborah, write in. Tell us what kind of doctor you are. It says, Todd's book was an inspiration to me when working on my own, and his advice was always— has always landed me with a great blend of practical and rocket fuel. I love— I agree, I agree. Okay, Mason writes in, thank you for the plug, Todd. You are an example of an introvert self-confirmed with chutzpah.

That's nice. Yeah, people are always surprised to hear I'm an introvert because I talk loud and fast because I'm a New Yorker. But I always say I'm a 3Bs kind of guy, a back-of-the-room, behind-the-scenes bookworm. So that's who I am by nature. So everything I do, podcasts and public speaking, that's pushing myself way out of my comfort zone. And it's becoming more comfortable over the years. But I was always one of the kids who sat in the back of the room, never raised their hands. In fact, in my NYU class, I have my students speak within the first 5 minutes. And I say to them, you have all just spoken more than I spoke in all my years of high school, college and graduate school because I never once spoke in class. So, and now I haven't stopped talking. So it just goes to show even us introverts, when we have something to say and we're passionate about it, it just spills out.

Hey, Todd, guess what? I'm a high introvert.

Are you really?

Yes.

Never would guess that. Never would guess that.

Listen, after these shows, I collapse. Okay, I'm gonna go back to talk— oh, before we go back to talking about your book, I don't want to forget. Um, Deborah says she's a family doctor and chutzpah is critical, and I think it can be taught with help from your work on courage, CB. Thank you, Deborah. We're gonna connect. Let's connect on LinkedIn. Um, I want to ask you 2 important questions related to my work on courage. One, can you tell us about a time where you faced having to display courage? What was it about and what happened? You personally.

Yeah, well, I mean, I have so many examples. Sometimes in life it takes courage just to get out of bed in the morning, right? Tough times, or, uh, right? Um, but one, one specific example I tell in my book, it's called the Grant Tinker story. I don't know if you remember who Grant Tinker was. He just passed away a few years ago. He was the president of of NBC. He was actually married to Mary Tyler Moore.

Mary Tyler Moore, yes, right.

So when I was 24, I worked for an ad agency in New York, Ogilvy Mather, and I didn't like it. I didn't like my job, and I was in the media buying division. I wanted to do something more creative, so the most courageous thing I ever did was I packed my bags and I moved out to LA without a job, without any connections, to pursue my goal of working in television, in the TV industry. So that took— I had to leave my parents and my dog and just get on this plane by myself. I had 2 college roommates who lived out there. And so anyway, I got on the plane to move out to LA, just my bags packed and, you know, a few hundred dollars in my bank account. And I'm walking through first class to get to my coach seat in the back of the plane. And the guy is blocking the row. And I say, excuse me. And it's Grant Tinker, the president of NBC. So here I am flying out to LA with the dream of working in television. And Grant Tinker, the head of NBC, is on the plane. So again, being an extreme introvert, I was terrified of even talking to him. But that whole flight I was like, should I talk to him? Should I not? This is going to be one of those future self things I'm going to regret for the rest of my life if I don't do it. So about a half hour before landing, I somehow got the courage to walk up to first class. I just started rambling. I said, Mr. Tinker, can I talk to you for a second? And I just told him the whole story. I interned at NBC the year before, and I'm moving out to LA to pursue my career dream of working in Hollywood. And he actually got— I thought he was gonna hit me or just scream like, you know, for the flight attendants. But what he did was he actually got up out of his aisle seat, moved over to the window seat, and said, here, sit down, what's your name?

No!

And yeah, so I spent the next 15 minutes sitting in first class. He got me a Diet Coke, um, talking to Grant, the president of NBC, um, and he gave me all kinds of advice and he gave me his card and he said, I probably won't be able to talk to you, but call my secretary and she'll set up some meetings for you. for you. But just think about the leadership lessons there. First of all, the generosity on his part to actually do that. You know, he didn't have to do that. He could have just said, sorry, I'm too busy, which was amazing. But I always reminded myself of the courage it took to push myself after 4 hours of sitting there debating to actually go up and speak to him. Now, I didn't end up with a job at NBC, but that gave me the courage and confidence that I was making the right decision. I ended up— I did end up getting a job. I worked for NBC. My first job out there was working for Michael Nesmith of the Monkees, and he just passed away.

Wow!

Yeah, so that was my very first job. And then I worked for Aaron Spelling.

What did you do for him?

I was in the mailroom, but then I got a job in marketing and then in their video division. Then I worked for Aaron Spelling on Dynasty, just putting scripts together, and I got to be in his gigantic office numerous times. And then I was in casting at Columbia Pictures. I was in comedy at Disney and drama at CBS. So those were my years in the TV industry. Before I got into the theme park business and eventually moved back to New York and got into executive coaching. So that's my career background in a nutshell. But that Grand Taker story is the story of courage that I always remind myself of because it took every ounce of energy and confidence that I didn't have to actually do that. And yet it was a life-changing, 10-minute life-changing conversation that taught me so. So now when students or other people reach out to me and say, can I pick your brain? Can I have 10 minutes of your time? I always flash back on Grant Tinker and I say yes because he was so generous with his time with me.

That is an incredible story. It gives me courage. Well, I have to tell you this funny story. Um, so my interview with Marshall Goldsmith. Okay, now I've known Marshall for quite a bit. I know people in his circle. But I was always intimidated that— should I ask him to be on my show? I'm like, he's gonna say no. And I went through this nonsense in my head for about a year. I thought, I better prove myself before I ask him, right? What an idiot. What an idiot I am, right?

Right.

So after the show, I said, Marshall, thank you so much. I really appreciate this. You know, I, I was nervous about asking you to do this. And he looked at me, he said, why, CB? You're my stepdaughter. And I'm like, um, not bright comes to mind. And he just started laughing. He said to me, CB, anything you need, it's all good.

Yeah.

I'm like, oh Lord, the things that you put in your head that stop you. From moving forward are absurd. Absurd. Yeah. Okay, now Deborah writes it. She says, I'm amazed by you 2 introverts.

Imagine if we were extroverts, how much we would have to talk about.

So here's what I want to share with you, Deborah. In MBTI, Myers-Briggs, it is said, I believe the number Is 70 to 80% of CEOs in the United States are introverts. Hot dog, drop the mic.

A lot of times people think introverts are shy or quiet, but it really is about your energy and your— like, like you said, after talking a lot, we need to just collapse. It takes us more time to think and process and plan than extroverts. So there's just a Susan Cain book, Quiet.

Oh, well, no, I'm gonna push that back.

Okay, okay.

It's not about the time we take, it's how deep we go.

Yes, that is true too.

Yes.

Okay, it's time to go deep. So I think we're both on the same, uh, yeah, yeah. Susan Cain's book Quiet really put introverts on the map and gave us, you know, power and, and confidence to— and pride in being an introvert and being thoughtful. And just, you know, it's just a different style and approach to problem solving and, and relationships and everything else. But we also don't like trivial small talk. We like having conversations of substance and really connecting with people. Like for me, as soon as I go into a big networking event, I turn into the old high school wallflower. I just, I don't talk to anyone.

Yeah.

But sit me down with someone who has something to say and, you know, speaking of courage, one of my favorite quotes is Winston Churchill's quote that it takes courage to stand up and speak, but courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen. And that's one of my favorite quotes related to leadership because so many leaders think they have to have all the answers. And it really is about being a good listener. And I always say, when we do 360s with leaders, that's the category that most leaders score themselves the highest in, but other people score them the lowest in. So I always say the biggest gap is between the ears because so many leaders don't take the time to listen. So listening is such an important leadership skill that's often overlooked and underrated.

Well, and when you listen to the interview that I did with Marcia, and I've forgotten who it is, uh, he asked, what's the greatest thing that you've learned as the CEO? And basically the answer was, I learned to shut up.

Mm-hmm.

Because when I speak, everybody, like, the boat shifts to where I'm speaking, and I don't get to hear the other side of the ship, right? So it becomes tilted, right?

Yeah, so I forget who said it, but someone said, I've never learned anything new by hearing myself speak, right?

Yes, yeah, yeah, that was one of the quotes. So Zach is writing back and he says, how deep we go. Oh, he must be an introvert too. Nice. Mic drop, CB. Hopefully extroverts like me can let you speak up. He's an extrovert. I love it. Okay, so my next question— sorry, I've got the sniffles, allergies, I don't know what's going on here. My next question is, of your clients, you don't have to mention name or company, what has you seen— have you seen in a single incident that has displayed the greatest courage? And what did it look like? And why do you remember that particular situation?

Hmm. Yeah, so to me, the biggest courage— thing that takes courage is taking a risk and trying something new, even with all the doubters and people say, oh, it can't be done. As Joel Barker, the futurist, said, those who say it can't be done need to get out of the way of those who are doing it. So just having that attitude of like, yeah, one of the reasons it's never been done was because it's not been done right, or it's not been done this way, or maybe the timing was wrong, are wrong. So I think that's one of the key things is having confidence. I was just rewatching an interview between Dory Clark interviewing Seth Godin, and Seth Godin was talking about— and the two of them are like two of my idols, so it was an amazing conversation. Seth Godin said, you know, when you start a blog post, you're starting with zero listeners or watchers, right? When you write a book, you're starting with zero readers. Everyone has to start from zero, right? So if you think about that, it's like, we need to eliminate, like you were talking about, the self-doubt. Like you were saying, oh, who am I to invite Marshall Goldsmith on my show? It's like, instead of— by reframing it as, what's the worst that could happen is he says no. So if you don't ask, the answer is no. And if you do ask, at least there's a possibility, right? So if you take those risks, I think that's one of the key things is take those risks. And Dale Carnegie wrote a book called Stop Worrying and Start Living. And one of the things to ask is, what's the worst that could happen what's the likelihood of the worst happening? Think about how often you worried about the worst happening in the past, and it didn't happen at all. And you start to take more risks and take more chances. And so, you know, like we said before, if you fail, what did you learn? And then you get up and you move forward.

So give us an example of a client that you've worked with who has demonstrated extreme courage.

Well, one of my recent coaching clients— in my book, there's a model called CAP, which stands for confidence, assertiveness, and presence. And he lacked all 3 of those things in his own mind from his own perception. So he was someone who had a business development sales type of job and he knew his content inside and out, but he didn't— he lacked confidence. He was not assertive and he had felt like he lacked presence. So working with him, first of all, the courage to reach out to me. He was an old— he was a former coworker of mine from like 10 years ago. And he just looked me up out of the blue and said, I love the coaching and training you did with our company 10 years ago. I need help. And you were the first person that I thought of. So I've been working with him on developing his confidence, assertiveness, and presence. One of the things that's interesting is too much confidence, overconfidence can backfire on you. Too much assertiveness is pushy and aggressive. And too much presence, you could come across as domineering. So one of the challenges of when you score yourself in those 3 categories, you don't want to be 10s because too much of a good thing turns into a bad thing. So it's like, what's the right number for you? Is it 7?

Yeah.

7, 8, and being able to dial it up or dial it back. But that's a real-life example. It took courage for him to acknowledge his issue, to reach out to me, and for me to work with him. And now each week he tries different things when he does presentations. And little by little, you know, I had him score himself and he gave himself like a 3 or a 4 in those categories. He's now up to like a 6 or a 7. So just over the last 3 or 4 months of working with him, he's bumped himself up a few numbers. And that wouldn't have happened if he hadn't had the courage to reach out. So that's a real-life example for one of my coaching clients.

I love that. And the scoring process that you use, was it self-scoring?

Self-scoring, but it could also be done as a 360. But the thing is, he didn't want anyone to know he had these issues. So, but when I do it as a team building thing, I have people, you know, you have to create a climate of psychological safety where people can be vulnerable and give their own scores and be open to that feedback. So sometimes I do do that as a group or a team. But other times, as in this instance, it was just with this one person and strictly confidential in terms of how we score them.

So I want to come back to that in a second. Deborah says, too much is so hard for women and for POC. We are so often told we're too much as soon as someone doesn't like what we have to say. Oh my God, Deborah, I love you. So on target. Oh my gosh, Deborah, you're gonna have to join my next Power Pack group. Yeah, what, what do you have to say about that? Uh, you know, we are— we women, especially, especially powerful women, are often dinged for being too aggressive, too assertive, too— it's the— we live with the word too in front of everything that describes us, right? So therefore, it's hard for us to display the courage that we truly have.

Yeah, that's one of the challenges. In the HR master's program at NYU, my students are about 80 to 90% female.

Get out.

Because the HR field tends to draw more women. Oh, that's true. And also graduate programs are getting more women these days than men. A lot of my students are international students, many of them from China and many of them from India and other countries. So what's interesting is all of these factors— gender identity, ethnicity— all of those things factor in. And I think this relates to diversity, inclusion, belonging, equity, all of those topics is, you know, how do you seem like you belong? And as you were talking, I was flashing back on one of my bosses. Again, I've had good bosses and horrible— but in fact, my book is dedicated first to my wife, secondly to my parents, and thirdly to all the horrible bosses without whom my career would not have been possible.

Mine too.

I've had many horrible bosses, and one of them I write about in the book, the boss who threw a box of pens at my head because they were the wrong ones. She wanted the medium point, uh, and these were the— she wanted the fine point. I ordered her the medium point. So I tell that story in the chapter Love Letter to Horrible Bosses. So what she did is, because Hollywood is such a— the values in Hollywood, especially at that time, were about ego, power, control, and money. It wasn't about developing people. It wasn't about nurturing. It really— so as a female in Hollywood, she overdid it. She had to be like one of the guys. So she was beyond tyrannical, beyond abusive. I actually kept an abuse log that I still have. Like every time, just for a sanity check, just to document the thing. She would actually say— I hear her on the phone saying, I'll have my boy bring you a copy of the script, talking about me. Like, I'm— I was only a year younger than her, and I'm 6'4 and she was 5'2, and she's calling me her boy because it was a power thing. I often hear the female executives brag about who had the taller and/or better-looking male assistants. Like, that was a power thing in Hollywood at that time. So I would say the Harvey Weinstein thing— there were also a lot of Harriet Weinsteins too, people who, um, abused their power.

Yeah.

It is challenging, like you said. It's like, for people who are not in the majority to assert themselves and yet for that not to backfire on them. So that's really one of the biggest— I mean, we're not going to solve it here, but it is definitely an issue and challenge is how do you do that in a way that, um, is effective for you and helps you become successful.

Perhaps your next book?

I'm not a specialist in there. There's a lot of other people. Sally Hegelson's How Women Rise with Marshall is a great book. There's a lot of other specialists out there who know more than I do in terms of this topic. So I try to stay in my lane. So I'm the visual thinking guy. And I touch on things. But I also, you know, that's one of the reasons I read all these books. You know, I was talking before, it's— I want to know who I could— I can't know everything about everything. So I want to be able to say, oh, you want something on gratitude? See Chester Elton and Adrian Gostick. You want something on being— having more grace? John Baldoni is your guy, right? So it's like, Knowing who people are.

Courage, CB is your person.

Courage, CB, yes, yes. Um, so, uh, yeah, so you want to know, and that's a good point, is like, what is, what is, what do you want to be known for and known as? It's like, so we can refer you. So if someone says courage, you want people to think, oh, CB is the person to talk to about that because that's her area of expertise and specialty. So I think that's something that we can all work on, is how do we brand ourselves so we become like the go-to person for that particular area, if not the person, one of the people so that you're just in the conversation?

Well, you know, I'll tell you, by the way, my audience loves a secret. So here's your secret for today. Working on a one-pager, which I've just done, um, which came out of the Women's Power Pack group, by the way, that describes who you are so that somebody else can say what it is, say who you are. In a way that you want them to say it is one of the hardest and best exercises you can do. And if anybody's listening who wants a sample of that, please reach out to me because it's powerful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A friend of mine, Michael Roderick, here in New York, um, he calls it your referable brand. Like, you can— it's one thing for you to be able to articulate it, but can other people do that about you? So it's almost like, here's my elevator pitch, but what are the hooks or the keywords that when someone says, oh, courage, CB, visual thinking, Todd Churches, you know, so it's like whatever the chutzpah, Mason Harris. So it's like, whatever, what's the magic word that will trigger you visually?

Exactly.

And then they'll pass your name along. So that's a big part of our branding for each of us.

I think so. It's amazing. And you know what? Aside from helping other people describe you, it helps you get a real visual on yourself.

Yeah.

So that you're not stuck explaining. Because, you know, I don't care how many times you tell people what you do, you have to come up with almost a one-worder that people will associate with you, like you just said.

What are your keywords? Just as you would do a keyword search in Google, what are your keywords?

I love it. I love it. By the way, this interview is going to be one of my newsletters, so watch out for it. You know, so Cynthia, excuse me, says, I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. By the way, Visual Leadership is also good as an audiobook. Which is surprising since you don't see the graphics and the visuals, but the stories stand out. Oh, I didn't realize it was out in an audiobook. You waste no time, Todd. Yeah.

But Cynthia makes a great point. I always thought there was a certain irony to listening to an audiobook on visual thinking, right? The good thing is many of the people who've listened to the audiobook because they like audiobooks have gone out and bought the book because they wanted the visuals and the models and everything that go along with it, which which is pretty cool. But that's interesting because I actually once had someone who was sight impaired who said to me, how does visual thinking apply to me, someone who can't see? And that was an interesting question. My response was, you still use— we still use metaphors, we still use visual storytelling. It's about painting a picture with words. So even if you can't see something with your physical eye, you could still see something with your mental eye.

Mind's eye.

And that's in the mind's eye. So that's my answer to that is Um, the best visual leaders use a combination of imagery and visual language to communicate and to get their ideas across.

Well, Todd, I know you're going to come out with a workbook for this, right?

That's on my to-do— that's on my, my list for 2022. So hopefully—

Whoa, whoa. Okay. Um, so Deborah says nice shout out for Michael and the referable brand. Okay, I'm gonna have to get that Book.

I don't think it's a book, but that's one of his. Well, Michael Roderick, just look him up and connect with him. He's like one of the great connectors that I know. So he's a really good one.

Then then I need to have him on my show. Okay, so hold on. Let me write his name down.

Good guy. Really great guy. Very generous and a great storyteller. So yeah, I definitely recommend Michael. I always talk about 4 Gs. I always say be genuine, be generous, be grateful, and do everything with grace. So when I talk about gratitude, I'm leveraging Chester and Adrian. Grace is John Baldoni. But in terms of be genuine, just be yourself, be authentic. Don't try to be— so many people like read a book or they want to be the next Dan Pink or the next whoever, and they copy them instead of being their own authentic self. And then also be generous. Like, I try to Just like they're dropping in all these names. It's really just, you know, it's a win-win for everyone just to share. If you enjoy someone, if you appreciate someone, pass their name along, mention them, tag them in posts. And I think that's how we all make each other better. 'Cause I think that's the key thing. When you work for a company, you have colleagues, but when you're solos, like solopreneurs like us, our community and our colleagues are everyone else who is also independent, solo. So I always say, try to spread, you know, you know that saying, don't try to grab a bigger piece of the pie, try to expand the pie and make it bigger and everyone gets bigger piece. So that's one of those visual metaphors that I really love and I try to live by.

I think that you do a great job. And the other person who does a great job, John Baldoni.

Yeah, he's amazing.

I mean, he is so good at it. It's just— I love him for it.

And he does it all while playing the piano. So he's so multifaceted that, uh, yeah, he makes it happen.

Mason says, painting a picture with words, very memorable. Yeah, I love it. The other person that does a lot of— hmm, I'm gonna say visual connectivity— is our friend Elise Ace. I have trouble pronouncing her name. She worked at Herman Miller and she does—

Isha Purcell. You can see her book Design the Life You Love is the red book right here behind me. Yeah, Ayse is one of them. What's interesting, quick story about Ayse. I was on Marshall Goldsmith's mailing list for years and I got an email to attend a Design the Life You Live pilot workshop, like 2000, I forget what year it was, but that's where I went and I met Ayse and we got to be great friends. And she's the one who actually nominated me and got me into the 100 coaches. So what's interesting is just how that, you know, what goes around comes around.

Yes.

And Ayse is an award-winning Herman Miller designer who takes her design principles products and applies them to designing the life you love. Designing— her new book is called Design the Long Life You Love. So just having a design thinking and visual approach, she's one of the most amazing and nicest and most fun people that I know. So Ayesha is a great friend of mine.

And talk about connectivity, uh, I used to be an interior designer and I purchased Herman Miller furniture.

Oh wow.

That was one of their big purchases. So because I was an interior designer for architects Wow. And so when I saw that, I said, wow, talk about connections and bringing it back into a loop. So Deborah says, thank you both for a great conversation and for making us feel part of it. Off to my 3 o'clock call. Deborah, connect with me on LinkedIn.

Thanks for being here, Deborah. Yeah.

Okay, so I want to just go back to the book because we, we're actually out of time. How did we get out of time? It's wonderful.

This went so fast. This is— I thought this was 20 minutes. Yes.

Oh my God. Okay, so I can't go back to the book, but listen, guys, you'll have to have me on for a part 2.

We'll have to have a continue.

You got it. You got it. Please get this book, Visual Leadership. Now, you know, I'm not supposed to promote anything directly, but I'm hugging this book. Todd, it's been a fabulous discussion. You know, I'm a former New Yorker before I moved to Colorado. So, uh, East 70s, West 70s, I'm all about the New York.

All right, well, we live on the Upper East Side, so same area, right on York, right, right near our new mayor. Uh, um, Eric Adams is just, I think, just moved into Gracie Mansion, so he's just right down the block from us.

Wow, wow. Yeah, I, gosh, I have such good memories of Food, ergo the size. So it's been a pleasure. Thank you, CB. Um, audience, come back next week. We have Ernie on, and he's done some incredible work in globe— in the global D&I space. And I want to ask— oh, I forgot to ask Deborah— all your friends, please Look for this presentation not only on LinkedIn, but please go into YouTube, subscribe, and subscribe to the podcast because this was also a podcast. It's— it'll be out by the end of the week on iHeartRadio, Spotify, Amazon, Apple, Stitches. It's all over.

Oh wow.

You are now famous, Todd.

Thank you, CB. Well, you were famous before I came along, so it was just an honor to be on the show with you, and it was a lot of fun. So thank you for having me.

Well, thank you. And as we say, it's just Todd. We look forward to you coming back. Hey, everybody, thank you for tuning in. I know this is still part of your holiday week. Please subscribe to the podcast and look for the newsletter. It's what keeps us going, keeps me fueled. Have a wonderful and very successful 2022 as you define your success. Bye now. Bye.