Challenges of the C-Suite with Guest Bruce Kasanoff, Episode 5s

Hello everybody! Surprise! I'm here today on Thursday, and you know, you never know when you're gonna see me. So the only solution is to follow CB Bowman on LinkedIn, and I welcome all of you guys to come and follow me. So This is CB Live on Thursday, and you know, on Thursdays we either do workplace equity and equality, or we do, in this case, um, what did I name this? I'm getting confused. Um, uh, CB Bowman Live, uh, Thought Leaders and Social Media Influencers. I think I got it right.

You got it. That's right.

Send me a note, right? So guys, are you getting all set for July 4th? Very exciting, right? This year we'll be able to actually go out and celebrate. So what do we have today? Well, you know how I always give you a secret, right? Well, today's secret is the secret sauce behind many Well-known authors. What does that mean? We have Bruce as our guest, and Bruce is a ghostwriter. I've never— I've always wanted to meet a ghostwriter because you know what? I have so many books inside me and they never hit the paper. So let's find out all about how ghostwriters write What do they charge? What do they ask? What do you really actually have to write the book yourself? But here's the thing, ghostwriters make thought leaders and social media influences powerful and popular because that book actually gets written and published, unlike mine that I've been working on for 20 years. So I'm so excited to bring on Bruce. Bruce, welcome to CB Bowman Live.

Thank you, CB. It's nice to talk to you again and nice to be here.

Great. So the first thing, let's do— where are you located?

I'm in Park City, Utah, 7,000 feet high.

Uh, is that higher than Colorado?

It's— well, I mean, it depends where in Colorado you are, but it's lower than some and higher than some, but it's pretty high. It's, you know, so to live, because then you go up the mountain, you know, when—

Yeah, yeah, we've got the same deal going, you know. I think though we own the name the Mile High City.

You do, and that's okay. I'm not, I'm not fighting for it, but, you know, just teasing.

Hey, so first, Bruce, tell us about how you got to where you are before we examine where you are and what you do.

Okay, well, um, I accidentally fought in, in every step of the way to get to what I do today. I used to be a speaker, I used to be an entrepreneur, I've done many, many things. And in 2006 Um, someone figured out that my first book, which I wrote for myself, it was about personalization, I wrote in 3 months. And, and they had hired a ghostwriter who spent 6 months and wrote one chapter, and they were in a bind. They had 3 months left. So they called me up and they said, if, if we introduced you to 20 public CEOs, would you interview them and write a book in 3 months. And, um, like, sure, you're going to introduce me to all these CEOs. So I took 3 months and did that. And, um, and it was— I didn't even know it existed, you know. I mean, it was like, hey, this is fun, you know. I met really well-known successful leaders and then, um, went back to my normal life. And then, uh, maybe 10 years ago—

What was your normal life at that point?

I was speaking about how to personalize customer relationships.

Okay.

And I was one of the early people in what was then called one-to-one marketing that became personalization. So, and then about 10 years ago, social media became a thing. Every now and then someone would send me a note saying, do you ever help people write on social media? You know, so like, could you help me on LinkedIn or Forbes or Inc. or something? And for a year I said no, you know, I don't do that. I— that's not what I do. And then finally I was like, wait a minute, so you're going to pay me to talk to you and then take, you know, an hour or 2 and write down what you said, and then I could like go skiing and come back and talk to somebody else? And I And it finally dawned on me that this— it happened that when I moved from Colorado, from Connecticut to Utah, that's when all this was happening. And so I started thinking more and more, wait a minute, in the summer I could go mountain biking, in the winter I could go skiing and talk to 3, 4, or 5 people a day. So that's what I do. 95% of what I do today is on social media. So it's short form. Maybe once a year I'll help somebody with a book. But I have too many clients right now to just focus on one. So I work with entrepreneurs. And, but the more important part, and this is the part that no one gets until they actually see or talk to me, is ghostwriting is— it's like a camouflage. It's a secret identity. Not a secret, it's my public identity. Because what I really do is I talk to people about what matters most. And once a week we have a conversation about what matters most, which then I turn into a post or an article. But that practice, that stopping once a week to say what matters most to me and to have somebody else kind of push back a little bit and say, well, I don't understand that, or seriously, like, you tell me you're fine, but you've got this look on your face like this. And so I ask you, you don't seem fine.

Sorry.

And that is— I never saw that coming, but that drives my practice. It's such a profound practice for anybody to take time once a week to say what really matters most to me, what matters so much that I want everybody in my network to know it. And that's the essence of what I do.

So Bruce, you're like— I'm going to coin a new term. You're a literary psychologist.

I love that, actually. I've been trying to come up with a term, so I love that. I'm actually— hold on, I'm gonna write that down.

Um, now I have to tell you, that's one of the, the new businesses I'm starting, is I have this weird brain that comes up with this kind of stuff. So I love that, uh, solopreneurs who are dependent on one income Expand their income range. So it's called scaling up your business.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's— it's— I need a name. I, I don't have a name.

And you can use it.

Okay, thank you. I'll do an asterisk.

You're gonna owe me.

I'll asterisk it and say designed by CB Bowman. I'm okay with that. So yeah, no, it's so— it's so, um, Most of us go through life kind of sort of awake, and I don't mean that overly negative. We just don't really know what we're trying to do, why. We know, okay, I want to get promoted, I want to get another speech, I want to be the boss, like, you know, I want to double our revenues. But why, you know? And, and, and what really, you know, push comes to shove, if you lost everything, you started over again, You know, you had to respond to a great opportunity, a great challenge. What do you really care about? And why are you actually doing this? Because a lot of us are doing things because, I don't know, it's like, look, I told you I fought for a year what I really should have been doing 20 years ago.

You know, you're actually bringing up a very serious subject. You know, we're taking Simon Sinek's work now. And we're talking about applying it not just to business. I think he's been— Simon's work is more associated with business. But now we're talking about identifying your personal why and putting it to words. And that really is a literary psychologist.

Right.

You know, when I think about myself, I started the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches about 8 years ago. And it's— I'm so proud of it. I'm so lucky to be in the same company as some really all great coaches because it's for master-level coaches.

Mm-hmm.

And, and then when this thing with Floyd came out, I decided that I was gonna open a company called WE, which is working with people in a non-shame, non-blame format for training organizations and how do you start a program, how do you start the discussion, right?

Right.

But recently I've realized that, uh, while this is very exciting, what I have been doing, much like you— and somebody told me this because I didn't even see it— is, CB, everything that you do is about scaling up your business. And I said, what are you talking about? ACEC is for coaches. And she said, no, what you preach is that coaches need to have more than one source of income because they're solopreneurs. And I said, absolutely. And then she said, and when you're talking about workplace equity and equality, you're talking about the income side. of inclusion, the wealth side. So you're talking about scaling up there. So what are you doing here?

Right.

Let's go with scaling up your business. And I, like you, went through— how did I miss that?

Yeah, yeah.

What the heck is wrong with me?

Well, but there's a key point there, which is that we think that we can just figure out our own path ourselves. And, you know, you want to be self-sufficient and capable and responsible. And it is the hardest thing that one of my— I mean, so long ago, I worked for Ogilvy Mather, the ad agency.

Oh yeah, the big one.

And that was when the web was just starting. IBM was our client. And we're responsible for redefining IBM's brand as well as IBM's web presence and all this. And our website looks like, you know, a 2-year-old designed it. And, and we never had the time, you know, to stop working to fix it. And we didn't have a good— because, you know, with IBM you could spend 6 months and 100 people to analyze the essence of the brand and brand stewardship and all that. For yourself, you're not going to take that much time. You have to make a— earn a living.

Right.

And it's— and you don't have the self-insight. You don't know, like, Why do people actually hire me? It's a very difficult question to answer, which is why any sort of interaction, talking like this, talking to somebody, having a coach, having a literary psychologist, whatever it is, everybody needs it. I mean, the smartest people I know are not necessarily smart when it comes to how are they perceived and why are people— sometimes people pay you because you have influence or they pay you because They're calling, Peyton.

Yeah, you know, it's so interesting because, um, the woman who helped me identify that, we had a meeting today and she said— I said, how's your week going? Which is Colorado question, right? Everybody says, how's your week going? When I first moved here, I'm like, what the heck? Because I'm a New Yorker, right? What do you care how my week—

Why do you care? Yeah, right. Yeah.

Well, what's in it for you? I've since learned it's a polite, uh, way to talk to people. So I said to her, how's your week going? And she said, ah, I'm like, it's all good, but it's just, you know, too much. And I said, okay, so instead of having a meeting today to talk about scaling up your business, why don't we talk Why don't you talk? Tell me what's happening. And I mean, it was a wonderful dialogue because we came up with new names, new solutions, identifying— now ironically, this is what she had done for me 2 weeks ago.

Mm-hmm.

But doing it for herself, she needed somebody to talk to about You know this. And so I totally agree with you. I don't care how successful you are, how you could be Bill Gates. Clearly, we know he needed to—

He needs some help now.

Yeah. Sorry, Bill. Not that he's listening to this. But it just goes to show, you need somebody to talk to who's not going to be a yes person. But who's going to be a person who thinks with you and thinks, and at the same time thinks different from you, right?

So, so I, I, I tell people that my best skill is not writing, that my best skill is listening and asking questions. It's not writing. It's easy to write at the end if you did those 2 things.

Yeah.

And so like that little voice in my head, they're like, Why did she say that? Why? What do you know? Is there something, you know, like, like you did with your friend? Like, you've seen, you know, something is— the most of us— well, not— I would say most of us, most of the time, we go right by those things. You come in, 6 people in a meeting, like, okay, what are we going to talk about? You, you don't even want to— you see that look in someone's eyes, you don't even want— you don't want to Stop because then he's going to start telling you about all this other stuff. You just want to have your meeting and go because you got another meeting in 22 minutes. And but you know that's why setting up however you do it time where you can. And by the way, you know there are people who go away on you know Harry Kramer, who's the Baxter CEO, and you know he he goes on this. 3 or 4 days silent retreat, you know, once a year. And you can do that. And, you know, I haven't done it at this point, but—

Wait, what's a silent retreat?

He goes to like a monastery for 3 or 4 days once a year and is in silence.

Yeah, he does.

Yeah, there's a— there's a— he told— I, I heard him give a speech that's very— I thought it was funny. So he's been going every year for 30 years in his parlance, with the same bunch of guys. And, and one year his wife said to him, you know, can we— could you switch the date that you go on the silent retreat? Because, you know, we have something else, some other obligation. I'd like you to come with me. And he's like, honey, I can't do it. I've been going with the same guy for 30 years. And she says, you never talk to these people ever. Why does it matter? But no, he's— he feels affinity with these same people, even though he has never had a conversation with them. Because it's a silent retreat.

That is wild. I've got to talk to him about this.

Well, so he— his book, Your 168, is great because it talks so much about, you know, kind of having a strong sense of— that's your 168 is how many hours there are in the week and how are you going to spend them because they're treasure. And, you know, so Harry has this practice of every night before he goes to sleep, he takes 15 or 20 minutes assesses how he did that day and what he might do differently tomorrow, then he— to use his own words— he sleeps like a baby because he's not, you know, spinning something in his head. He's already gone through that. And it's the same thing. It doesn't really matter as long as you do it repeatedly. You know, why am I doing what am I doing? You know, how is it working for me? Could I do better? However you want to do that. And but I think the key thing is, is that don't let yourself be deluded. Like, don't let yourself have the same voice in your head that's saying, Bruce, great job, great job, you're the best, you're the best, you know, as opposed to saying, like, if you push back on me respectfully, but push back on me and say, Bruce, that sounds like, you know, I don't know, I'm having trouble processing what you're saying, it seems a little bit superficial. If I respect you, I'm going to I'm going to think about it. I'm going to try again to put into words how it is that I'm feeling. That is unbelievably powerful. However you choose to do that, it's, it's like a superpower.

I think, you know, I know for myself, I know that I should be doing that, but then I think, eh, you're too good, you don't have to do this. And then when somebody else says For me, I'm like, but why didn't I think of that? Well, maybe because you thought you were too good to go through that process, right?

Right.

I mean, it's really— when you stop and think about it, Bruce, it's a very difficult process to do. If you sit down at night and you think, okay, why am I doing this instead of that? And what do I expect the outcome to be? And so people like me, I'm a builder type. I jump first before I figure out where I'm going to land. I'm going to say, don't worry about it, you got this.

You know the treehouse analogy?

What's that?

There's 2 types of people when it comes to building treehouses. There's people who sit down with like plans and they got to draw it all out. And then there's people who just start nailing wood to a tree. Yeah, and you're the nail the wood to the tree person.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. To me, to spend time to process this whole thing, you could have been done with it already and be actually in the moment experiencing it and making changes as you go.

So, so you, you just did a superb job of explaining why I have a career, because So many people like my— so my—

Send me the check for advertising.

Right there, another benefit. My client base are all entrepreneurs and they, most of them do not like to sit in a room by themselves and say, how could I do better? You know, like it just doesn't feel— but so they think they're signing up for social media support and, you know, and they're willing to talk to like their people out there in the world. They're happy to do that. They want more engagement. They want more reach. All this stuff. And under that umbrella, they're willing to sit down for half an hour once a week, and they are willing to take seriously, okay, what is it that's going to be interesting enough and important enough to tell the world? So they're still in the, I can justify this time and, and expense. But then, because you have to— like, I have to be able to put into words how you feel. So I— so you don't get offended, you don't get upset, you don't get impatient if I say to you, CB, you know, I don't really understand. Like, I understand so I could say it kind of, but I won't do justice. So can you tell me, tell me how that works, or give me an example? And, and by— you understand the reason that I have to keep nudging you, but at the same time, I therefore get to ask you I— so I'll give you a specific example. If I talk to someone, I always tape and transcribe conversations with my clients, and they know I'm doing this. So if I talk to you for half an hour, you're going to say about 5,000 or 6,000 words. And I need to do, let's say, a LinkedIn post or just something like that. I need about 225 words. And so 99% of what you say, I'll never I'll never send to you to publish. So I'm really trying to say, what's the gem that you have? And then you get to see. So the next day, or even later that day, you get to see what did someone else who's on my side think the most valuable, the most relevant thing I said was. And you, week after week, you get to see that. And, and virtually everybody, they start to see a pattern. Wow, the things that I say that are at the intersection of what's meaningful to me and meaningful to the world fit in these 2 or 3 buckets. And, and, you know, I've had clients who say, I didn't really, really think I was— not a do-gooder, but, you know, kind of— I didn't think that it was— social equity was important to me as apparently it is. I didn't think that meritocracy was as important to me as I think it is, because I— they see, it's like a mirror. They see, no, that, that's not important, this is important. And it, it's— but I could— I meant personally, I couldn't do it either. I— well, maybe I can, but I, I don't like to sit by myself. I like to talk to other people. So.

Well, here, here's one for you, and then we're going to talk about, um, Helen has written in some comments here. So everybody feel free to write in. I'm going to come to them. So you and I both know Luke, who works with Marshall.

Sure.

And so I was just online with Luke, who is going to help us. We have a collaboratorium coming up.

What does that mean?

So it's a word we've made up that we've been pushing out. So instead of doing a regular conference, in the DEI space. We're doing a collaboratorium, which means that we have very few speakers. In fact, we only have 4 speakers for the 3 days.

Wow.

Most of the time is going to be spent in workshops that are led by moderators. We're going to look at solving problems that you might have, a company might have in the inclusion space. There's actual workshops.

Right.

So it's a combination of a conference and a webinar and a workshop.

I love that. Thank you.

And it's all based on no blame, no shame. You can ask me any question. You can ask me, do I get sunburned? And I won't be offended. Because this is about no shame, no blame. It's about people coming together and really understanding each other and being able to support organizations that are struggling in trying to include inclusiveness.

Right. Okay.

So my background is also design. So—

I didn't know that.

Okay. Yeah, I went to Parsons School of Design. So, you know, I asked Carla, my IT person, to design the conference website to look like our training website because we train organizations in this space.

Okay.

He comes up with this slick design. It's magnificent. Luke says— said to me, so tell me about this Collaboratorium. What is it about? How did you come to this space? And I said, well, it really— I said, it's hard for me to talk about because It has to do with the racism that I experienced in the corporate world. And I want to be part of the solution. And I told him the whole story. And he's listening. And he's starting to choke up. And I'm thinking— and it's hard for me to talk about it because I'm wanting to choke up.

Right.

And he said, CB, I hope you don't mind. But your website does not speak the way you just spoke. And I said, um, um, so that my audience knows I get calls in the middle of this. This one is from Elena. Elena, can I call you back? I'm doing a show.

Sorry.

That's okay, I'll call you back. Bye-bye. So, um, that's My business.

I need to get a call now to keep up.

But you know, you know Elena, she's part of MG100.

Well, she didn't call me, so I'm a little—

Oh, I'm sorry. Well, we— she and I are doing the Collaboratorium, so timely. So, um, he said, first of all, your website has a white guy on it, and 2, it doesn't have any of the passion The tear-jerking language that you just talked about. And I look, I'm listening to this, and I'm like, what? We designed a magnificent website. Yes, it doesn't talk to anything about what you just— and I'm like, stunned, because my design got in the way of the story. Yep.

Well, also Luke is very good, but yes, I guess I hear what you're saying.

We need people like you and Luke to say, timeout, you're not communicating what you're saying visually.

Right, right. And it's so easy to say like, I love this, it looks great, you know. But, but here's the problem, everybody else lacks context. You know what's in your head, you know what you're trying to achieve, you know, you know what your heart is. But everybody else doesn't know that. So they just come to this website and they say, I don't know, it looks great, but it looks like everybody else, you know, or, you know, whatever. It might be a tech company. I don't know. You know.

And he said, the registration is ridiculous. You're asking way too many questions. And I said, that's— my computer is off time with my phone. It's supposed to ring when my phone rings.

Oh, that was Elena again?

No, she wasn't calling me again. That was my computer telling me that I'm getting a call. But the call already happened. So I have to call my friends at Apple to talk to them about this. So wait, we've got so many comments in and Carla is on the line. So oh my God, she's gonna use what I said against me because she warns me that the website Right. Okay. I'm in trouble. I was hoping she wasn't listening. Um, so Helen says the beginning, big agency. So she knows the agency you worked with. Then she writes, it sounds like you would both be great mediators. I love it.

Maybe moderators, but I'm not sure about mediators.

And she says, but can the design be part of the story? Yes, Helen, it can be, and I missed the boat. So too late now, but we'll know for next year. And then Helen writes in— Carla writes in, so true. And Helen writes in again, okay, that's true. So—

Oh, so I mean, I'm not a designer, neither, you know, you know more about design than I do, but I know from being part of the creative process that it's the same thing in design, in life, in writing, in everything. It's like, what is most important to us? And what is— so if you don't know anything about me, my company, what's the one thing I really want you to know? And what feelings, what emotions, what do I want to— invoke in you. So you, you, if you're in the right place, you, you get that sense right away.

Yes.

And, and those of us who are close to our own work are, you know, it's, it's so hard.

You know, it's really hard to do it yourself. And, you know, I often say, in fact, I said it today to somebody about the WE conference. I said, why isn't everybody on the team getting that we have to market this? And how we have to market it. And here, me, you know, with Elena leading the pack, and I missed the boat.

All of us do that. That's, that's okay.

Same. Okay. Sorry, my allergies are killing me. But I love this conversation and where we're going. It's so important to have the right— you know, I read a book years ago, I can't even remember who wrote it, but it was about individuals need to have their own board of directors more than companies need it. It's your group, or as the kids say today, your posse, that tells you the truth. And a lot of us don't have that, right?

Right, right. Yeah, I know, it— I think that's— it's very true. I think that A lot of these concepts, people are like I described I was, that they— I can say that to somebody and they can say, yeah, I should, and then they don't, and then they don't do anything about it. But I think that for those of us who are lucky, it sneaks up on us, meaning that somehow you get that. I mean, personally, I find that having the same set of conversations every week with people who— they're my client, I'm supposed to be helping them. I gain a huge amount because of the consistency of trying to explain each other's thoughts, even though I'm writing for somebody else. The only way I know how to have conversations is by saying, well, you know, I was in a similar circumstance and that was horrible, and I know what it felt like. And they say, well, yeah, well— so they might say, well, what happened to you? And I tell them what happened. And, and just hearing a consistent reaction, like for example, if you try and explain a new business idea to somebody you think is the best idea in the world and they just don't get it, well, that's a key piece of information.

Yeah.

Or if you say, I got the greatest idea, I'm going to help other people, and they say, that sounds like a business idea, that doesn't sound like a social good idea, that sounds like, okay, well, CB's going to make more money from that, like Say, well, that's not my intention. Well, okay, then maybe you should say it differently. How else could you say it? You know, and, and, and just having those sort of consistent interactions, like, can other people understand not just what I say but my motivations, my emotions? You know, and then the last thing, and this is the one, um, I had to— do you know Molly Chang?

No. No, is she part of MG100?

Yeah, Molly is a creator of Say It Skillfully, sayitskillfully.com.

Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, I do know Molly.

Like 2 years ago, this, this is like a 20-second conversation, and she changed my life. And, and, and she, she was out here, uh, in Park City. Uh, we were, we had a client we were working with and She said— we're just like having dinner— and she said, what do you think this energy is when you do this? You know? And I said, well, it, it means I'm really listening and I'm focused on what you, you're saying. And she says, no, it means low-energy boredom. I'm like, really? He said, yeah, you come across as you're bored. And, and she said, you know, you can make a conscious decision about the energy you bring to a conversation, to an interaction, to a meeting. Changed my life. Absolutely changed my life. So I then started practicing, like, really safe. Like, I'd walk into the coffee shop to pick up an iced tea, and instead of just walking like, you know, I smiled when I walked in the door. I'm not seeing anybody, you know. I just smile when I walked in the door, and it was like magic. It was like all of a sudden, you know, people go like this. And behind the counter And I was like, no, that was just a coincidence. And I did it again and the same thing happened. And the more that I realized— oh, then like 2 months later I said to, to Molly, well, I have this other problem, you know, what do I do about that? And she said, smile more. I was like, that's it? And I thought she was going to tell me, you know, well, you have to say things this way, you have to think about this. Smile more. It was just— And, and The more I've played around with it, the more I've experimented, talked to people. It's unbelievable. This changes to me. It felt like this is half an ounce of energy. It doesn't take like you have to lift weights for ten years or anything, and it's astonishing. And and people, so I'll give you another example. You know, say the the the the boss who's having ten people in for a meeting. You know, if he or she comes in, you know, harried, looking at the watch, you know, whatever, you know, can we get going? I gotta, I gotta get out of here really quickly. So he thinks he's saying we gotta be really efficient and focused and make a good decision. What he's actually saying is, don't you dare waste a minute of my time. I just want you to say yes. to what I want to happen. And that's the signal. So he— now you can stop people, and I have, and said, this is what came across, respectfully. Is that the message you want? Did you want to shut down all the conversation? And, you know, sometimes people say yes, and some— and a lot of times they say no, I didn't want to do that. Or then they'll say 2 weeks later or 2 months later, well, we all agreed on that strategy. And no, we didn't. You told us to shut up, and you told us what we were going to do. You know, so these are really important things.

It's interesting you mentioned that because my husband and I were at Costco the other day. We got out of the car, and this woman, very lovely woman, I smiled at her, and she just kept staring at me. And I just smiled, and she came over to me. I don't know her from the blue. And she said, I have to just tell you. No, it was, it was a different store. It wasn't Costco. No, it was Costco. And she said, I just have to tell you, you have the best smile in the world. You're making me happy today. I looked at my husband and I said, see how lucky you are?

If you had tape recorded that moment.

Yeah. But you know, there's a book There's an old book that you would love to read, I think, called Body Language.

Oh, sure. Yeah.

By Julius Fast. Have you read that one?

I haven't read that, but I believe strongly in body language. I mean, what's the woman who— not the Fake It Till You Make It, but more recently—

Deborah Tannen?

No, I'm forgetting. But I mean, I think that's completely true. I also— I work with somebody um, years ago who did the opposite, who, who was, um, how do you figure out who you can't trust? You know, through in part body language. And, you know, somebody who said— what was it? Um, you say, sure, I can do that.

I catch people and, and they're like And I'll call on them and say, so you totally disagree? And they're like, no, no, I agree. I said, well, but you're still shaking your head no.

And it really is a tell. It is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But, but also a lot of times they'll say, I didn't realize I was doing that.

Well, yes, you were. So can I— you, you responded good to my bio that talks about dogs. Can I tell you a 40-second dog story?

Please.

So I'm, I'm invited to participate in this Columbia University study, which just means that I bring my dog to someone's office to do this thing. And they have a room that's empty with a chair in the middle, and it's all a grid masking tape on the floor so they can judge distance and all this. So I sit in the chair and they keep my dog, and then they say, call your dog, just call your dog in. And they— I call the dog in, my dog comes and wanders around a little bit, sits down next to me. Okay, a few minutes later they take the dog out, they say, okay, go back in the room, but this time when you call the dog, you just get like, you know, like I'm mad. You just imagine you're mad. Don't say anything other than, you know, here, Dex, but be like that. And they bring the dog to the doorway. And so my dog was at the time was Dex, a 70-pound smartest dog I ever had. Comes to the doorway, he looks at me sitting there like this, he turns around, he walks away. He's not coming in. And they're saying, we're trying to validate that dogs read owners' emotions. Like, absolutely. See, yeah, but no one's ever proven that. And later on they call me and I think they felt that they had validated that, you know, in a scientific Way that yeah, you know what you you or I could tell anybody. Of course they do.

Absolutely they can. Who even doubted that? I mean, whoever doubted it has not been around dogs.

Right, right. Well, but but the same thing happens with people is that you don't know why you don't trust somebody sometimes.

Yes.

You pick up these things like, you know what? Why is he? You know, he said yes. It didn't feel like yes. You know, or or he said yes before I even. Told him the cost, you know. Will you agree? Sure. It costs $250,000. Oh, no problem. You're like, no, nobody says no problem to a quarter million dollars. At least say, why are you charging me? Or, you know, sometimes you walk away and say that was a yes, but it— they're not gonna really—

Yeah, yeah, I love it, I love it. Okay, so let's— Helen is writing in some more and she says, um, Reading body language is part of what a mediator does.

He really wants us to be a mediator.

Yes, thank you, Helen.

I need a— I apparently need another income source.

So yeah, Helen, send the checks, we'll do it. Okay, then she says Paul Ekman, E-K-K-M-A-N, question mark.

Of course he does. Of course.

Yeah, yeah, a course on how to catch people in a lie.

Uh, I'm gonna tell you an interesting ghostwriting secret, okay?

Yes, please.

So I can't tell you the client, but I can tell you that we were— I was helping this person years ago write about, you know, truth, live facts, whatever. On Facebook, when you write about lies and deception It works really well. You get high traffic and engagement.

You mean lies that you've told?

No, like if you talk about how to catch somebody in a lie. Yeah, Facebook audience loves it. You write on LinkedIn about how to catch people in a lie, almost nobody responds.

Why is that difference?

I, I don't know. It's, it's, it was, we, we kept doing this over and over again and On Facebook, it would go crazy. On LinkedIn, it'd be like nobody read it.

Is it because LinkedIn is a business platform and Facebook is a social platform?

I think that, yeah, I think LinkedIn people come to with a bit more, you know, uh, responsibility, social conscience, you know, don't waste my time on, you know, trying to get me mad. And, you know, but I found it very interesting that, you know, Just broadly, the 2 platforms, not a specific audience, they were completely different.

Yeah, well, you, you know, you get that when you talk about, you know, TikTok is for a younger group, Instagram is for in between, and, and then you've got LinkedIn, which is the older population that's, you know, more financially sound and responsible. It's interesting how when things are released How audiences just segment, right?

Well, the other thing I think that is important to— I mean, you know this, but on all these places like LinkedIn, I'll talk about LinkedIn. So LinkedIn, I have an advantage because I see, um, or pay attention, maybe the better way to say it. I pay attention to what happens when I publish something under my own name. I pay attention when each of my clients are releasing what whatever they do, or on Forbes or Inc. or wherever it is. And, and each of us over time builds up a group of followers or network, you know, connections that they expect, or they rely on us for a certain type of information. So when I step— I write mainly under my own name about things like what matters most and doing well by doing good, you know, things of that ilk. When I step away from that, I get, you know, so little response. When I stay with what I've been writing about for 10 years, you know, and I can push it a bit, but, you know, people come to expect, and I attract the people who care about this stuff, same as you do, same as anybody does. But it's really interesting because it does become— I mean, one of my, um, he had this Uh, place on my website is called Increase Your Influence. We, we did with Tasha that went over it, and, uh, Tasha Urich. And, um, one of my principles is expand your swim lane, which means, A, know what your swim lane is. What is it that you want to be known for and write about or talk about or do? But also, don't ever let it just be static, because over time you want to, you want to keep yourself interested, you want to grow. And so what's adjacent to that? And can you, you know, a bit without, you know, I don't want to start writing about being a circus clown. You know, it has nothing to do with what I do, but to go into like the next, you know, area is important.

Yeah. So I want to read, by the way, my phone is going to ring again on my computer. I just heard it. I put it in a drawer so nobody could hear, but I think people could still hear it.

Just for fun, I should call you, but okay.

I'm a popular person. So Helen writes in, uh, are you sensing a theme? Laughing out loud. Yes, Helen, we're definitely sensing a theme. And then Neil writes in, I love the idea of very small actions like smiling causing large responses. So true. Oh my God.

Can I get woo-woo on you? Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Yeah. So I also think you can do that without even having an outward sign. Like, I think that if you— if, if I have in my whatever you want to call it, being, you know, head, heart, you know, that, you know, okay, I'm just gonna, you know, listen, but I'm really thinking about something else. And that's— so for example, years ago Um, I, um, I spent a couple years— I mean, this was a theme in what I was—

Mm-hmm.

Um, getting, uh, people to think about this, keeping 3 words in their head, and that is, in every interaction you have with anybody— phone call, this, you know, talking to people on the street— help this person. In your head. If you have that in your head, you know, so instead of saying, I can't believe this line at Starbucks is taking so long, what's wrong with those people? If you walk in and say, can I help the woman behind the counter? You know, how can I help? And it might just be like saying, how are you? You know, I got a— I did not hope to get a free iced tea, but I did a drive-up a couple months ago. And, you know, you go up to the window and then, you know, and when I got to the take up my iced tea, the woman said, it's free, it's on us. I'm like, why? She said, it's been a bad day. You are the only person who asked me how I was. This is in the drive-up window before I got to the counter.

Mm-hmm.

And because I just try and do that just because why not? It takes 2 seconds and, you know, it's a nice thing to do. So if you have in your head A positive thought, you know, how can I help CB? Even without smiling, it changes it because I'm thinking then, you know, can I help her make this more interesting? Can I help her? You know, maybe she didn't, um, maybe something she said I think I could tell. Like, you helped me with literary psychologist. Maybe I can come up with a word. Maybe I won't think of it now, but I'll think of it in half an hour. But people can pick up. On— wait a minute, her, her being is helpful, it's positive, it's focused. And it— even before— but it, it has to be reflecting what you're bringing. Yeah, I mean, am I here to help or am I here to get, you know, stuff done? You know, and sometimes getting stuff done means my agenda, my focus, and people pick up on that stuff too. So I, I really think Walking into a room with, you know, 1, 2, 3 words, you know, I want to be supportive. Okay. And, and it's, it's astonishing that even with that, before you smile, before you say anything, people— the way you look at somebody if you're saying I'm there for you is different than, you know, why are you going to waste my time?

But I'm gonna play devil's advocate for a second. Suppose this is putting a lot of pressure on us to be positive all the time, right?

It can't— you can go in with a, I want to be super efficient. I mean, you can do that. I'm not saying that that's never warranted.

Right. But, but I'm— what I'm going for is suppose you're having a really horrible day. How did How do we get the support from other people to help us through this day? We can't always say, oh, how's your day? How's everything going? Sometimes we're stuck in our own stuff.

So, right. So my, my point of view would be, if you go through life Basically trying to be of service to other people, you're being a decent person, whatever. When you need help, you should not be afraid to say it. When you— I have people all the time who say to me, I can't do it today, I just, I can't do it today, can we talk tomorrow, can we do something else? You know, not because I'm busy, I just— like, I've had a bunch of clients who say I don't have an idea in my head today. I don't know what's important. I'm having a bad day. And that's like one of the best skills you can have. I don't expect any of us to be robots and we're always on. But if you have actual relationships with people, you can say that. If your relationship is purely transactional, you can't say that. So it really is a function of how do you go through the world? And if you're going through the world, you know, like, for example, if I want you to be flexible when to accommodate my schedule, but I'm never flexible to accommodate yours, well, that doesn't work, you know.

So, okay. So listen, I want to get to this part. How do people find people like you? Um, let's, let's give it a short title of ghostwriter, right? How do, how do people find you? And more importantly, based upon the story you told us earlier, how do you find somebody that you can trust to do this well?

Um, I don't know. I mean, like, I'm on LinkedIn, you know what I mean? Search on LinkedIn. Here's the thing. I think the second part of your question is the real, you know, in, as with any profession, you know, like when I see people who say, ghostwriters, I mean, you know, for $5,000, I'll write your book. I think, like, do I want to buy sushi for $1.50? No. You know, like, I, I want it to be— I want the, the $12 sushi. I don't want the $1.50 sushi. You know, you want it to make sense to you. Like, how much are they going to charge me? How long is it going to take? What's the process? Does this make intuitive sense to me? You know, I mean, if it's too good to be true, it's too good to be true. You know, can you— a lot of times ghostwriters don't say, like, they can't show you samples of their work because it's, you know, it's confidential. But show me something you wrote, you know. How, how is, is that the reason? I, I, I— when my practice started, I got so— I was for a long time the most published person on LinkedIn, which meant I wrote more content on LinkedIn for probably the first 5 years that people could write, could publish on LinkedIn, then literally— not, I'm not saying like generally, I'm saying literally the most of anybody in the world. I wrote and I wrote and I wrote and I wrote under my own name, not for other people, under my own name. And in doing so, people started to know who I was. They saw samples of my work, and then they asked for help based on— they saw, they saw 500 things I wrote. You know, and so, you know, if you have a writer, you know, who has no samples or say, yeah, I could do that. I haven't done yet, but I could do that. You know, you have to be able to show somebody something. There are plenty of, you know, whether it's a ghostwriter or copywriter or book, you know, ghost or, you know, however you say, but it has to make sense. And then I guess the second thing would be do they have a sweet spot? You know, like, do they write novels or do they write— you know, like, there are people who write essentially, you know, kind of biographies in the sense of only your family is going to read it. Your family, your community, people at church maybe. You know, you're going to print 500 copies. There are people who specialize in stuff like that. They're good. They know the questions to ask and they don't mind. They can show you 30 books they've published because Confidentiality is not a thing in that niche. So that's what I would do is just kind of use common sense.

How much does personality match play into something like this?

I think it does. I think that you need to be comfortable with the writer and vice versa. I have no interest in Machiavellian, you know, sell, sell, sell people. You know, none. And so every now and then I get someone like that. I tell them I don't think we're a good fit, not in a rude way, but, you know, um, everything I do is designed to attract, um, people who believe in kind of community good, not socialist, but just believe that, you know, all boats should rise and, you know, together. And, um, And I work really hard. A lot of times when you think— not you think, one might think that I'm— I publish something that has nothing to do with self-promotion. It does, because it is expressing my values as clearly as I can. And my hope is that over time I will— I'll be lucky enough to attract people who have some overlap in my values. And it is so easy to work with people like that. I have plenty of clients I disagree with, but on a core human level, you know, we have a lot of overlaps.

Um, so somebody comes to you— let's, let's focus on the book.

I want to make sure that we don't run out. I have like 3 minutes and then I'm gonna have to leave because I have a client calling at the top of the hour.

Okay, well, what I was going to ask you was What does somebody need to come to a ghostwriter with? Is it just an idea? Is it—

Well, it depends on what you want. If you want help with social media, you want to publish something once a week, you just need to pick up the phone. Or a book, then you, you need to have— well, it depends. There are a couple of categories. You can have people who come to you with an idea, or you can come to somebody who can actually help you um, tease out what might be an idea. It, it depends on how much work. Well, I would say a really, really, really simple thing for a book is, do you have a, a strong expertise, something you're good at, you know a lot about? And do you have 50 stories? Do you have 50 anecdotes, stories, case studies, histories, things that are interesting. If you were at a party, people would want to hear them. You have 50 stories and some expertise, you can write a book. Will it change the world? Maybe not, but you can write a book. If you have 3 stories, then you got to get 47, and, and the writer will not come up with your— maybe he or she can come up with a few, but that's what makes your book your book, is that you have. So I'm sure, like, someone like you, From your life, from all the interactions you have. You probably tell stories all day long. That's what— and, and then, by the way, a writer— the few instances when I've written books for people or with people, the ones that I have taken on are always people who are storytellers. They don't like to write, but they can tell stories.

They can spin a yarn. Hey, I know you have to run, Bruce, so, um, audience, we're going to end a little early today.

Sorry, it's my fault, not CB's.

Yeah, we had to grab him when we could, right? So, um, I think I'm back on Tuesday. I don't know, my schedule's been running crazy with such exciting things. Um, next week we have the last of the ACEC conference. You can get a day pass. That's the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches. Uh, we're gonna have some incredible people So sign up if you haven't, go to the acec-conference.org. And with that, I've already told my secret. I'm rushing off to support Bruce talking to his client. We'll see you when we see you. Follow me and you'll figure it out. Thanks, Bruce.

Thanks, CB. Thanks everybody. I appreciate it. It was great to talk to you.

Come back again.

Bye-bye.

Bye.