Challenges of the C-Suite with Catharine Larkin, Episode 20

Hello, Kathryn.

Hello, CB. Finally, nice to see you.

Oh, it's wonderful to see you. Hi, everyone out there. This is CB Bowman Live, and today we have a special guest on Challenges of the C-Suite, Kathryn Larkin, who is a member of the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches and is a Master Corporate Executive Coach. And we had a few technical problems before we started the show. And, you know, I like to have my spearmint— no, peppermint, whatever— Lifesavers because of the dry air in Colorado. So I had a chance to have that and have a sip of juice. And so I think we're all set to go.

Absolutely, absolutely delighted.

So let's Let's have Katherine introduce herself, tell us a little bit about herself. And you know how we roll, it's just like in your living room. So let's go. Hi, Stevie.

I'm so happy to be here and happy that we got over the technical issues. Well, um, I'll just give you a little bit of a background. I have actually been in coaching for probably 40 years. It wasn't called coaching back then, but A little bit of background, I actually started my career as a high school teacher and I taught in a private boys' school. So I figured the reason I do well with the big boys is I figured out how to deal with the little ones very early on.

Exactly.

And I'm also one— I have 7 sisters and a brother, so I got the male and female perspective pretty early. And you learn collaboration, human insight, human behavior, all that stuff pretty early. I taught for 4 years and then, I had the privilege of going to work for a consulting firm for 8 years. And I worked globally and I got grounded because a lot of the work was assessment and development. So, I was not only using assessment diagnostics that I was trained in, the proprietary, to actually evaluate people. But I was teaching leaders and managers within organizations how to actually use them. That was my first glimpse into the fact that people are not really all that effective at assessing, evaluating, coaching, managing people. And so, I kind of found myself in there acting as kind of a coach and a guide. And so, after I spent a few years there, I thought, well, I'll do the flip side. So, I did outplacement for a period of time. And that was quite a learning because then I found out that most people are not very good at articulating who they are, what they bring to the table, and they don't have language to kind of express themselves. So, all of that put together, I got an opportunity in 1980 to run a consulting firm. It was actually an IO consulting firm and I was a non-traditional hire. But like you, CB, I don't think there's anything we've ever done that's kind of traditional.

No.

So I got in there and I worked for that company. It was absolutely fabulous. It was called McQuaig Ferguson at the time, then it became Micah McQuaig Ferguson, and then it became Micah McQuaig Pulvermacher, and then Larkin. So I got my name in there. So I worked with that firm, uh, for, uh, from 1990 through to about 2007. It had evolved. I was a subset of a larger firm which was probably the leading firm in leadership development, way, way ahead of their time. It was amazing. So I really got global experience. I did everything from design to running to P&L to presentation. I have to laugh. I once told them I could speak French. My degree was in French, but I had to memorize an 85-page manual so I could deliver it in French. The thing is, they stuck me into the center of Quebec when I couldn't understand at the time a thing. So I was going, ah oui, c'est intéressant. I mean, all the time I just kept saying, sounds great, guys. So that was fabulous. And then, so then in 2007, the firm that I was with was sold to LeHec Terrasson Knightsbridge. It was Knightsbridge at the time. And they're really, they're global, right? Right. We all have some connection there. And so I spent 7 years there. So I have really— I've been schooled with, trained with, walked alongside some of the best and most amazing people, and I'm grateful to so many of them. So now I do independent work, and it really is a combination of consulting and coaching and advising, which is really why the MCEC appealed to me so much because of the enterprise-wide sort of focus. So right now I feel pretty blessed despite COVID. I've got a wonderful, um, group of clients I continue to work with. Some I've worked with since 2005. And so I've seen a lot of different things. My perspective may not be like, you know, earth-shattering, but it's mine, and I'm happy to share any part of it with you. So—

So I'm still stuck on 7 brothers and sisters.

Yeah, yeah, it's pretty amazing. And they're all pretty darn wonderful. I, I told them all they had to watch today, and I'd list them I could name them all off, but they'd probably be embarrassed. So they're cheering me on. They're all pretty amazing. One brother and 7 sisters, so it's—

Tell us, can you remember what each of them does for a living? There's a true test.

Oh, sure, sure. I mean, most of— many of them are retired now or living, but absolutely, I could tell you everything. I can tell you how many kids they have. We had a new great-great— a new great-grandchild born yesterday, number 24, I think.

Yeah.

So yeah, we're incredibly close. My parents raised us that way. And, and, you know, I think when you think about like, why do we do this kind of work? I think when you learn empathy and compassion and sharing, and we had a family that was very strong faith, like faith in family, faith in, you know, in God, faith in doing what's right, faith what you're supposed to be doing on this earth. And, and I look at all of my siblings and I look at the people who are in their circle and their kids and I think, Gosh, my parents got it right. And it's, it's really kind of a model for living. So, you know, I kind of feel that I try to give that back in the work that I do. So, yeah.

What did your parents do?

My father was an entrepreneur, no surprise. And my mother was not only a mother to 8 children, but she basically was involved in the business as well with my father in terms of an advisory. She worked in the business for a period of time and then was at home. But I think she had her hands filled being his sounding board and his guide and his wisdom and her strength. And, you know, it's funny, when he passed away, it's amazing how you find out how strong your mothers really are, right? Like, what a rock she was and her understanding of business. And I— so, and both my mom and my dad, uh, were raised by women because their fathers died when they were very young. So Our whole family, we've raised very strong, strong, self-sufficient women. And my brother, my only brother, has— I have to laugh. He once worked at an organization where he was managing 35 women and people kept saying, Michael, how do you do that? He said, nah, not telling my secrets. Not telling my secrets. So bless him. I mean, he's got a heart as big as they come. But yeah. We have been pretty fortunate, to say the least.

Oh my goodness, how exciting. Okay, so now let's get into challenges of the C-suite. I love your background, and now I understand where your humor comes from.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh God, you know, so, so I'll tell you, uh, you know, my challenges, and, and I'm just going to share a little bit of what I'm seeing right now, and it may or may not be different from other people saying, but I have 2 or 3 stories that might be interesting. I'm doing a lot of work with people who are getting prepared to be the next CEO.

Mm-hmm.

And in doing so, then I get the privilege of connecting with the actual CEO. And I think we're in for some massive change. And I'll tell you why. Many of the people with whom I've spoken who are in CEO roles have said, You know, this reprieve, so to speak, that we've had from travel, from socializing, from being away from our families has been transformative. And I had one gentleman say to me the other day, I dread the thought of having to go back to it. And he said, because of that, I will probably take the earlier of my retiring dates.

Retiring dates.

And then there's 3 other guys, very senior, who have been leaders in CPG in Canada, the consumer packaged goods in Canada, have decided they could have stayed on longer, but decided, you know, my career has been amazing. It's my time to go. And then I spoke with my friend Barb Singer from Executive Corps yesterday. And she agreed with me. She thinks that what we're seeing is there's going to be a massive exodus And she said, there's already stats in the States to say how many women have done, have decided to leave saying, no, I will not go that route. I think we're going to have a tremendous number of people saying, this isn't worth it for me anymore. And I'm choosing earlier than I have to, or earlier than I thought I might to leave. So the issue is there are people who are going to be stepping into roles that they're not quite ready for. And they may have the intellectual maturity, but they may not have the emotional maturity or the experience. And I could see coaching being enormously valuable, especially the type of coaching that we do in that there's a coaching to help really, how does it help the person evolve into the role? But how do they manage and navigate teams of people who are very diverse, which is your center of gravity? And then everything that's changed, people are going to start to want things different. The other thing that I think I'm seeing, and this is my own little humor in it, I think we've discovered that the world of work is just like The Wizard of Oz. And that people looking up at the senior group have thought, wow, they know everything, they have the answers. And now they've been so exposed on Zoom and on video and they see the dysfunction or they see the lack of knowledge. And they're realizing that if you pull the curtain back, there's just a bunch of little men and women running around trying to figure out what to do. And so, although it's irreverent, I remind some of the people that I'm coaching, say, look, stop looking up, stop looking up. You have to look within and look across and look down because that's where the next, And that's where the next wave of answers are coming from. And I think there's the C-suite are recognizing that as well. And those who are courageous are starting to dig deeper into the organization to find out where the answers are. Who are my innovators? Who are my entrepreneurs? Who are my risk-takers? I don't care age, color, gender orientation. I don't care if you're smart and you can step into the space, we need you. So They're all kind of tied together, CB, but I see the movement of people out, people moving up earlier, having to dig deeper into the organization for answers that they haven't had. And the fact is they're recognizing we simply don't know. And it's going to take, like, obviously collaboration and mind power for it to work.

So, I mean, you just threw so much out there. I'm not even sure where I'm going to start. But let me start with the great reveal.

Right.

What we're faced with now is a new leader unlike what we've seen before. And you know what? Let's hold that one. Let's talk about Jeff, who stepped down from Amazon.

Yeah.

And it is a prime example of what you're talking about, because he said, enough, I've done my part. I don't want to lead this organization from the top. And this organization this year is going to be faced with a lot of legal challenges. Yeah. Why do I need to put myself through that when I've already Staked the ground and brought you from here to there. Yeah. Now let, let you deal with the government. Let you deal with the pandemics. I have laid the groundwork for you to be successful. I've done enough.

So I have another theory around that. I think that people, as we are aging, And, uh, I mean, I just said I've been doing this for 40 years. I know by looking at me— Listen, you just need a good dermatologist, a good hairdresser, and a bunch, and you'll be fine for a couple more years. Yeah. But, um, I think there's really a question of relevance, and I— it's been something that I've been toying with for about 5, about 4 or 5 years, and keep trying to write stuff about it. I think the biggest single thing that people struggle with is how do I stay relevant? And if people like—

But wait, wait, wait, Katharine. Is it how do I stay or do I want to stay?

It's both. It's both. And I'm glad you made that comment because it seems to me that at certain points in my life, we think we're supposed to be relevant to certain groups. And we try very hard to be relevant. And we get in the group and we find out we don't feel like we belong. I don't feel relevant here. But the thing is, we've been chasing somebody else's definition of the truth about what it means to be relevant. And so, they chase that. And then, they break off groups that try to be relevant in a different way, but they don't fit to the larger picture. And so, I think people are deciding, I've tried so hard to be relevant to to somebody else's idea of what relevance is. So now, where do I wanna be relevant? Can I do that in the work, in doing the work that I'm doing?

Mm-hmm.

Can I do it through a pastime? Or do I say, I don't wanna be relevant here anymore. These people that I'm with and this work that they're doing no longer fits with my sense of who I am and who I've become. And I think that fits a lot into, we hear the word purpose. All the time. And I know it sounds grandiose, but like, there's got to be some reason we breathe, some reason we do what we do, like some reason we continue to work or not work. And I— oh, but I think if you cannot find a pod of people or connections where you feel you belong and you feel you're part of it and you feel that you can give something and get something back and I am relevant to it, I think that The degree of dissatisfaction and frustration and disconnection is just going to accelerate. You know, people— I know I'm chatting away, but you get me excited. I can't stop. But you know, what I've been listening to them talk about, we're headed for a post-traumatic stress syndrome in the workplace because people have just been coping with all of the things, all the constraints that they've had, more so even in Canada than the States. But you've dealt with so many. Dreadful things over the last year. And our hearts go out to all of our American colleagues and friends and relatives. But there's going to be a stress when all of a sudden, you don't have to panic or worry about those same things every day. There's going to be some big void. And I think we're going to have to figure out as leaders, how do we help people climb back up? How do we help them find something else to be relevant to?

That's— there's 2 parts to this. One is, how do we help people climb up and fill those seats?

Right.

But there's also a stronger one, which is the people who are stepping away, not stepping down, which I think is a big difference. They need to have a space where— and I'm sorry, we're getting a little feedback here. But we— they need to have a space where they know it's okay to change, to do something else. You know, I myself have changed careers numerous times.

Right.

Because I've reached the point where I say, this no longer meets my values, this no longer meets my interests, I don't feel a sense of belonging. I'm not gonna quit, so where am I going?

Right.

And wherever I go, it's okay that I go there, because if I don't like it, I just do the same thing. I quit and I say, where else am I needed? And I think a lot of people are afraid to ask that question to voice that thought, and they don't have their own personal board of directors that's supportive. Right.

Yeah, I agree. I have my personal board of directors, they're my family. As a matter of fact, I've invited them to a Zoom call this afternoon because I need their help with something. But I think a lot of people don't have the courage that you have. And I think that that's innate, that's part of the fabric of CB Bowman, right? Which is why you do what you do. I think there are, are people who they don't know themselves well enough that they can take some of these chances and they'll be okay. They're living by somebody else's expectations for themselves, right?

Yes.

And I mean, I still remember someone said to me once, like, you know, you changed at some point in your life. As a matter of fact, I still laugh. One of my sisters said, you're actually nice now. I said, I think I need to have a conversation with her. But what had happened, this is true. When I was 33, I had a head-on car collision. And I broke my neck. Like, I'm just like, you know, send me sympathy cards. I'm okay. I'm fine. But, but what happened after that, it— I had to decide who mattered to me in my life. Whose, whose CD or whose tape or whose whatever, whose playlist was in my head. And I had to make a decision that I could either choose to follow that and follow the same path, or I could make different choices. It was scary to do that.

Yeah.

But I had my board of directors with me. me. And I also had my belief in myself. But it could have turned out differently. I mean, I wasn't alone. And I think right now, there's been with the COVID and the isolation, people are alone and afraid to make— they, I think they know what they want to do. It's like when we say in coaching, you're a smart, capable person, you know what it is you want to do, what's keeping you from doing what you know you want to do. And it's really, again, I go back to coaching, like we need someone who's a sounding board who helps us think through What is it? What are the stories we're telling ourselves that are keeping us from making the choices that are going to benefit us and our families?

But wait a second. I'm going to give you an example of the wrong way to use a sounding board in my eyes.

Okay.

First of all, it's in the setup. You know, if you go to somebody and you say, You know what? That glass is half empty. What do you think? You have predisposed that person to think it's half empty. If you go to them and you say, the glass is half full as I see it, they're gonna— you're right, it is half full. What do we put in to make it all the way full?

Right.

So you have to be really careful about the ask.

Yeah.

Now, what are you asking? What kind of advice are you seeking? Are you predisposing it to be the answer that you really want it to be, but you're afraid to move forward on that answer? And I'll give you a really good example. I will not mention the person's name because this is not about outing the person, but we have a dear colleague who was supposed to speak at our conference. About a subject matter that I think was important, and the subject matter was the opposite. It could be viewed as the opposite of what he's known as—he or she is known as—as a thought leader. At the same time, it was. An incredible marketing opportunity. Because if you come— you know how we work, our minds. If you take a stance on something and then you come out with a polarizing statement, oh my God, the PR and the interest gets stirred up. How could you have said this and you've done that? And it's a great time to explain. It's a good time to— Explain. expand. It's a good time to refresh your original thought leader position. But this person went and spoke to 5 people, and they all said, oh no, this will destroy your career.

Right.

And it just blew me away because, one, you have to have the strength of your conviction And number 2, you have to have the strength of knowing your power. And if you have spent years as a thought leader, you cannot let, like, maybe one person in the audience throw you off your base. So I guarantee you, the way that it was positioned to that person's board was, I don't think I should do this. What do you think? What do you think? Yeah, you know. Or I'm concerned about how this might destroy my position as a thought leader in this field.

Yeah.

No, it's going to make you stronger. And it's going to give you more of an audience. It's going to trigger more thought. It's going to trigger more discussion. So, you know, I totally agree with you. And I think we need to be real careful about how we use our support team.

Right.

Right.

Oh, am I echoing there on you?

Yeah.

I think one of the things that it reminds me of, and I sort of half remember things sometimes, so if I haven't got this quite right, then bear with me, but that there's 2 things that are very important to people. One is belonging, and that goes back to that whole sense of being relevant. And the second is minimizing ambiguity. And I think that when, you know, you think about that, particular person, if they were to speak outside of what they had normally said, they may no longer be relevant to the people who they see as their greatest supporters. And there's fear of losing that. And the ambiguity, the uncertainty of knowing what will happen if I do that, and what if I lose stuff. And I think it's like, you know, I go back to my— I go back to my— there's this group of friends that I meditate with. Well, I think I sleep. I think they meditate. They're much better at it than I am. But they're always reminding me that, you know what? The only thing you have is the present. And that in terms of being totally present, there will be lots of ideas and fears and thoughts that'll flash across your mind. You can choose to follow those stories or not, but they're not necessarily real. So being afraid To go out and try something new. It's like you've created a story of what could happen that may in fact not be true at all. So if you could really just stay grounded and allow those thoughts to pass through and just say, I'm going to step into this space. But you know what? I think that we're so much more evolved. And I mean, I mean that not as if I got wings on my back. But when I've spent so many years doing this work as you have, and you hear so many stories, they push you to They push you to develop. They push you to get outside your comfort zone. And I'm eternally grateful to every single person I've ever coached or worked with because they're the ones that have allowed me to figure out where my boundaries are or not. They're the ones that have allowed me to say, don't put boundaries around yourself, Kathryn.

Yes. Yes.

You're totally capable of trying something, failing, and getting up and doing it again. You've proven it over and over again. But you know what?

And expanding. The fear to expand is, I think, something that we need to explore because we explore the fear of failure. We explore the fear of success. But who's tackling that fear of expanding?

Right. Right. Well, I'm always— I think I sent you a little note. Like, my sisters and my brother laugh at me. They said that I can't survive unless I have another project. But just so you know the kinds of things that I've done, and this is kind of living room talk, so I'll share it.

Yes.

I did one night at stand-up comedy at a Yuk Yuk's comedy club in Toronto. And I walked around the block for about like 5 hours trying to get the nerve to go. I had signed up. I went. I got some laughs. It was hysterical. And I thought, well, you know, good. I terrified myself. I'm going to do that again. A couple of years ago, I climbed Mount Kilimanjaro. I mean, I wasn't ready for it. I can tell you a whole story about the nightmares of things and the good people who carried me up. I ran a marathon and almost had to get dragged over the last quarter mile because my friend came back to save me. But you know what? With me, it's a— and I think it's with the people I coach, is I care so deeply and passionately that people find ways to strip away those barriers, those things, those walls they put up, those don'ts that are in the world. Because I just think people have so much more talent and capability if they could just start to believe in themselves. And instead of going and asking other people, what do you think I should do? Ask me. Ask not me. Yes. Well, ask me. Ask me. Please ask me. Ask yourself. Ask yourself. Ask yourself and just say like, hey, hey, like whose voice is this anyway? Yeah. Anyway, I got the most beautiful note from a couple people. Two notes recently from people who are retiring, and I've worked with them—one from 2005 and one from 2013—and they. Isn't that scary? I felt so wise. I have no recollection whatsoever. But when you're in the moment, you know, there's such an opportunity for us to help people. I mean, I think through our work as coaches and advisors and as sounding boards and objective partners and thought partners, and in a community, I mean, there's just so much help and support out there for everybody. And it just is like taking the step to get out there.

But pick, pick wisely. Yeah, people who are going to say you're setting up the conversation so that you get the answer you want to have, right?

Yes.

And I see a different answer, and you need somebody who's brave enough to tell you that. And Deborah, who's listening in— I'm getting a little echo again— Deborah, who's listening in, said Love your Wizard of Oz analogy, Katherine. So true.

Well, listen, I used to do an imitation of the Wicked of the Witch melting, but if we had another half hour, I'd do that for you as well.

Oh my gosh. Oh, I want to see that.

No, no. I even, and I even do, and my little dog too.

Oh my gosh. Oh, he's so cute.

Oh yeah. She's a good girl. She's a good girl. CB, I'm not sure whether we're having the conversation we're supposed to be having, but thank you for coming to my living room.

We're having— we're absolutely having the conversation we should have. Okay, it's all about drifting. And, and Deborah says, love the expanding discussion and try to do things that are scary. Oh, thank you, Deborah. I love it. I love it too. And you know what this show is about? Just going there, right?

Yeah, yeah. I want this— I want to say something to you, CB, before you ask about it, like why I chose this particular organization to be part of MCEC.

You mean ACEC?

ACEC, yeah, the association. Sorry, I was just— yeah, ACEC. I think there's something about the tone that you have set in this organization that it's not that it's elitist, but it's really, it's for people who have really, really been there and done the work. And they've written, they've published, they've worked at every level in organization. They may have worked globally. They've made a lot of mistakes, so they've learned through their mistakes. They're quite willing to be vulnerable. They're very open to sharing their wisdom. There's no hierarchy. The people whom you attract, like I was listening to you talk to Richard Boyettis the other day, and he's now going to come to the conference. I mean, I just love the way, I mean, he so appealed to me. First of all, you connect and people want to be part of your circle, but you attract people who are leading who are leading thinkers and people who are adding value and who are still current and who are not caught up by a certain frame or lens through which they're supposed to view the world or supposed to show up. And I think that you, you're very true to your values and your purpose, and it makes it, it makes it so valuable to be part of it. And I, you know, and I, you know, I, I'm not always available. I was going to say it's because I'm shy and don't like to participate, but I think it's just that—

I would have busted you on that one.

I think it's just I'm not good at managing my calendar and I keep missing it. Oh God. But you know what? It's such— and it's a small group right now, but it's expanding. And I've been looking at the few people who have joined recently and think, oh my gosh, there's just— it's a gold mine of a platinum mind, if you will, of people who just are on the edge of great thinking. So I really thank you for what you're doing and all your work in diversity and inclusion. I'm learning so much through you on that front as well. So I just wanted to say officially, thank you on that level.

Oh my God, I wasn't expecting that.

Well, you deserve it.

You know, and okay. Let's change the subject because I'll get mushy, and I'm not supposed to be a mushy person. But what we're talking about is the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches, which Kathryn is part of. And we're just— she's wonderful. She's wonderful.

Yeah.

And I'd love to tell the story about the short story that you wrote me, but I won't. Oh, that's a good one. That is a good one.

Yeah.

Let's go back and talk about these leaders and filling the pipeline. I agree with you, coaching is going to be needed more than ever. As I'm listening to you, I'm thinking this is a wonderful opportunity for those that fall into the diversity spectrum to move up in corporate America. And when I say diversity spectrum here, I'm not just talking about people of color. I was in a Clubhouse meeting the other— yesterday, and this young man who— I was going to say young kid, and that would have aged me, so I took that out of my vocabulary. This young man who is in graduate school, who is He's a defined transgender person. He asked such a heartwarming question, which is, does D&I, diversity and inclusion, only apply to people of color?

No.

I thought— he said, because I'm trying to find a community. It just broke my heart. I said to him, Absolutely not. Here's what's happening. It's just because of the killings that are going on, it happens to be the people of color who are bringing this question of D&I to the forefront. But we're bringing everybody along with us, you know. And so I think that leaders that are coming up are going to be more prone to having a diverse workforce so that everybody is included. I am seeing this in young women who used to be— when you and I grew up, it was a catfight, right, in corporate America. I am seeing such solidarity now that it is heartwarming. My question to you is, how do we help leaders who have this value, how do we help them execute on their value?

Well, you know what, I'm no expert and I'll just share some initial thoughts that I have that's been going on. I think you can help one person at a time. But really, what we need is for us to help organizations at a time.

Right.

Right? And I think where that is going to become important is this whole movement to systemic team coaching throughout organizations. Teams of diverse people need to learn to work together in pods and then collectively as it rolls up. So focusing on the individual helps the individual, but doesn't help the whole sort of progression in society and in organizations that we need and want to see, that we're desperate for. There are many people like myself who— I didn't have that much exposure growing up. And so I'm learning, I'm reading, I'm listening, but I'm still not as relevant to it as I need to be to actually make a significant change. So we need to handpick people. First of all, we need to give people team skills so that they can incorporate all different levels of diversity within groups and then within departments. But we also need to, I think, handpick people who are further along the spectrum, who not only represent, represent the diversity, but they can speak the language of the people to whom they have to tell, you know, they can speak the language of the listener. Like, they're not just focused on their own angle of diversity, right? They understand it, they embrace it. They may be a representative one, but they can bring other people along with them. And I, you know, I still love what the fellow who, Patrick Lencioni said, you know, when he wrote in Five Dysfunctions of a Team, again, just the part I remember of it. He said, you know, if you want to get— there's 3 things you really need to know about people. You need to know where they grew up, what number they were in the family, and what's the biggest, the toughest decision they've ever had to make. Whatever the 3 questions are, I think they're things that we need to appreciate about one another. that gives us an accelerated view into who they are as people, how they show up, how they need to be nurtured, supported, helped, and challenged within the workplace. And we need leaders who are agile and flexible and insightful enough to not only lead that way, but lead their teams in that way. So, I mean, I'm a big fan of, I think it's David Clutterbuck. And when we got the first name right, um, again, there's a lot of work being done on systemic teams. I've got some friends here in Toronto, uh, at the Richmond Group who are doing that kind of work. I just think that there's— it's— we've got to move from the individual to the team. We have to appreciate the individual, but we need to get the team figuring out how to work together because small communities make real change. So—

So I— it takes me down 2 different paths, and one, I think about the the next CEOs that you're coaching and how do you prepare them to lead teams? And by teams, I mean, you know, really diverse teams. And the other thing I think about is, as you said, it's the organization that needs to look— and again, when I say diverse, I'm talking about women. I'm talking about everybody in this particular scenario. And I think about the Super Bowl. that we just saw and how I was so upset with one of the commercials. I think it was Jeep, which Bruce Springsteen did, and, you know, who doesn't love the Boss, right? But when he talked about America and us coming together, which was very passionate, And he showed various people. There was no diversity in what he— the commercial showed. There was a diversity in income, but no other diversity. And it killed me. And I said, what is this organization thinking in this day and age to have a commercial about coming together as America with an icon of America and there's no diversity. So I wonder if it's our responsibility as coaches, and I think about you, not— I'm not saying this is your responsibility, but I'm thinking if you're coaching the next level CEOs, how do you support them in looking around their team and looking around the messaging that their company is giving to be more inclusive to all of America?

Well, I can just think of, well, 2 things. One is that I think one of my roles in this one gentleman I'm thinking about is to really help him sit with his his own bias, to be aware of it, to become really, um, awakened, if you will, in terms of all the things that have shaped beliefs, assumptions, attitudes, mindsets, um, and to really actually hold that up for himself so he really understands what his starting point is. Unfortunately, this one person I'm talking about is so ready To make these changes, and he's so humble and open, but he has a big machine to move.

Mm-hmm.

But what he is doing is already putting his own line in the sand about behavior that he will or will not accept or tolerate, and what he— what he's holding himself to account for, and what he's holding other people accountable for. His workforce is still not as broadly diverse. But I believe over the next 5 to 10 years that he's going to move very, very quickly to do that, not only because he wants to, because it's being pushed on him. So, I think one is helping him be aware also how he coaches and guides and holds his own team accountable, everything from the language they use to what they say, how they act, everything. Again, it's not my area, but I know that the woman who is in HR in this particular company is very attuned to what's happening in the world. And she is, I'm sure, reaching out into this global network of their organization to figure out how do we bring all the wisdom that's in pockets here. And so, I think as the organizations become really more global in terms of the way they're thinking, we'll see a lot more of that. Yeah. Movement around. But the only thing I can do is I can work with, help with him and his attitude and his mindset and also with his team and then figure out how he holds them accountable. And then if we get into succession planning and hiring, perhaps as I've done with like companies in the past, I'm sort of an outside observer in terms of, well, you know, how well does this person represent what you need on your team? So I don't have any really spectacularly wise insights. I'm just, that's That's sort of off the top of my head, the kinds of things where I would start and where I have started.

I think you have great insights. And I think you nailed it just now. And I guess I wonder, as an enterprise-wide business coach, not just as a regular master coach, if this is a responsibility that we need to take on to better prepare our leaders to have more, let's say, inclusive teams and to create a sense of belonging for their employees. As an enterprise-wide business partner, is this within our scope of responsibility?

And I think it is because really, so coaching answers the question, where are you now? And where do you want to get to?

Yeah.

And what is it that you can do within your power to do that? And what it is you need to enable to have that to happen? And I think there's so many people I've met over the years who are incredibly wise, like Tricia Natif at MRG. I just got a note, an email from them saying that they are now this wonderful tool, which I love, which is called the Leadership Effectiveness Analysis Tool. So well-researched, so great.

Oh, I'm taking it. She's giving it to me.

Oh, listen, it's magnificent. But they've added a whole dimension now, as far as I can see, that looks at the extent to which diversity and inclusion. So Tricia and her team are thinking beyond, and they're trying to take their best research and they have to, and really for this to work, and I'm also a member of like the IOC, right? The Institute of Coaching through the, with Margaret Moore and the McLean Hospital thing. The stuff that's based on research is where we need to start. Because if it just is, if it's an opinion or a passionate point of view, you don't win everybody over. You need to have the analysis to prove that it makes sense. And you need to have the, you know, win people, win their minds, win their hearts. And then you need to have the tools that are integrated, an integrated approach to actually make this this happen and make it real. Because these sort of slapdash, throw it against the wall stuff is just going to get people saying, see, it doesn't work.

Yeah.

And so, I think you need a really wise, cohesive, synchronized, strategic approach to doing it. And you can make some decisions company-wide in terms of what is acceptable here or not. We've tried it in the past. But there's a lot of transgressions that don't get That don't get called.

So, um, going back to, um, something you said earlier with CEOs, uh, saying it's my time to go.

Yeah, well, they don't say that directly, but they're— no, but you know.

Yeah. Are you seeing this more in men or in women?

Uh, well, right now, um, I would say if I just take the C-suite as opposed to just say CEO, Yeah.

Yes. Yes.

Just that it's, it's been in my experience right now, almost all, I'd say if out of 6 people, it's been 5 men and 1 woman.

Hmm. Now, is that because of the relationship of the number of C-suite people that are men? Or do you think that women want to stay in the game longer?

Oh, I, I, well, some of us have to, right? If you're, if you are divorced or separated or you're still supporting other people, sometimes they, you have no choices.

Right.

Um, you know, and then, so, I mean, there's people I know that are supporting 4 ex-spouses. I mean, not me, that's not me. It's like I have a friend who, uh, but their ex-spouses. But so I think some of the realities, but I was talking to, again, I was talking to, um, Barbara Singer this morning, she was saying that they're seeing her in her population, women, senior women are leaving in droves. And all I can say is right now, given the population I am serving, it is more men who are leaving than women. Although the one, the women was really interesting, are some of them— oh God, this is so interesting. Some of them stayed because They were at their wit's ends because the leader that they were following, whom they had left or was asked to leave, and they found out that life didn't have to be as hard as it has been. So, when they would have left, they now did not leave. And they are rejigging their world, rethinking their world and creating. And you can love somebody and it's difficult. You cannot love somebody but find a different way through. Sometimes when you take the emotion out of it, it's easier to tolerate. And to work your way through, you know, situations that are tough. But I'm seeing the women are— not that they're staying longer. Most women I know are the breadwinners.

And oh my God, that is fascinating and makes sense. Yeah. And Barbara, Barbara has a strong post on what's going on in women in business. So, you know, it's an interesting Crossroad there.

Right. Very, very. I mean, I don't think there's any general rule. I mean, everybody's situation is different. And I think for me, when I decide to leave, it's going to be because— oh, I'll stop there for a second. There was a guy who I might— was my first major coaching gig in my life that was absolutely phenomenal. And I'm okay sharing it because he shared it on LinkedIn. He was one of the top people at McKinsey and Company, which is the global strategy firm. And I coached him over a period of about 10 years. And then I did a lot of other work with colleagues of his. But he said to me one day, he changed positions finally. He left the firm. And he sent me a note and he said, I always remembered something you said to me about when I asked you, when should I retire? And he said, apparently, I said to him, when your work isn't as good as it used to be, and you don't think you're as good as you used to be.

Whoa. I love it.

I thought I was pretty darn brilliant.

Brilliant. Brilliant.

But anyway, so—

You surprise me, Katherine.

But you know what? I'm in the same place. When I get to the place where I think my work's not as good, and I don't feel as good about it, that's going to be my call. And it's not because As going to someone else saying, do you think I should work? Do you think I should not work? No, no. It's because I have my internal sensors. I got my internal advisory board that will let me know. But you have to listen to it because sometimes we try too hard to still be relevant when we should no longer be relevant because our time has come.

Kathryn, when is your book coming out?

Oh my God. You know what? I've been asked that before. Right now, I'm right into running those short stories on how to date over 60.

I love your short stories. That's a whole different show. Oh my God, Catherine sent me one that I— it just blew me away. No, I can't start. I can't start.

You can't start on that one. You'll have me both— you'll have us both sued on air.

Oh, Catherine— Carolyn, who is a dear friend, is just— she was on the line. She says, great program, Syby and Catherine. And She has a program coming up this week on diversity for chief financial officers. So, you know, check her out on LinkedIn. Hey, Catherine, what, what are you noticing when women say it's time and men say it's time? What are they doing next? Is there a difference? Are men just like stepping down from the very top but staying involved like the Amazon case? with Jeff, or are women just going off and doing— what's happening after?

Well, based just on my, you know, that real short experience right now, I think the people who are deciding to leave are leaving an organization which is one that's so different than the one they joined, and most of them have not said anything about wanting to stay involved because it's changed. Their time has changed. What they do talk about is, is there some other way in my world or in my life where I can renew my own sense of purpose, that I can find different ways of giving back? And it doesn't have to be work. It can be something where my skill set and the richness of who I am and who I want to become and who I feel I am now in this stage of maturity, where is that space for me? And I think they don't want to make a mistake because they don't want to end up going like as if they're going back in another job. They want to find something that is personally meaningful. And people are living longer, right? I mean, they all want to travel.

Yeah.

That's— and they want to spend time with their children. And I don't know, I think people are just like all of us are kind of think what what makes sense now. And I guess that's— if you don't come out of this last year with some sense of, well, what needs to be different, then, then I, I wish you do. I wish you could, right?

Yeah. I mean, we talked about the bad of COVID and we know it was bad. I mean, I, I myself and my husband both had COVID.

I know.

But I will say that at the same time, it gave me this new direction, this sense of urgency in— for me, it was in the D&I space. And it gave me a sense of clarity of what I needed to cut out of my life. You know, things like— this is going to sound really stupid— do I really need an hour and a half meeting?

Right.

Can I push myself to make it an hour meeting? Because I need more time to do something that I think is a calling to me, and it's not set up correctly the way my life is set up. Do I need to really buckle down and find an administrative assistant? Because I can't run 2 companies without one. You know, let's deal with this. I don't have the imposter syndrome, but I do have the Superwoman syndrome. So I think that— oh, we're getting in comments. CB will be moderating February 12th, the CFO Leadership Council program on creating a successful D&I program for your organization. Join us and thank CB. And she gives the website. And Art says, thank you, Catherine and CB, for your insights today. Today, really appreciated the discussion. You know, I always think when I'm doing this, because I don't have an audience, that nobody's listening. But Catherine, people are listening to you today.

People are listening. There you go. Maybe I should give my, my phone number, my email address, the dates when I'm available.

Why not? Why not give the name of your firm?

Oh my God, if I ever lose my sense of humor, then I'll put myself down. There you go.

Well, we're about ready to close, so this would be a real good time to slowly give your email, your company, whatever else you want to give.

That's okay. I, I just— I'm delighted. I mean, I've had such a privileged career, honest to goodness, when I think about the people and I look at some of my lists and in the Canadian, the top 100 companies, top 50, I mean, I've got many women who are global leaders. I wanted to say one thing before we close is there are a number of women whom I've coached over the years, particularly women, but there have been men in the same category, who literally were forced out of the organization because they didn't didn't fit. And I'd say to a person, they've become leaders in not only the global— in the local community, North American community, and the global community, because they didn't— companies didn't know how to help them manage their extraordinariness, right? Because it didn't fit within what they knew how to manage. And I— that would be my one hope, is that we find a way an incubator within every organization to allow those people who aren't like everybody else to flourish, to make a difference, to really cocoon them for a period of time till they're ready. And if they have to fly at some point, but help them really grow, because I have been just blown away by how well these people have done. And there are both men and women, but particularly women I can think of right now. And, um, yeah, so I, I got a pretty darn great career. I've had a great run. I can't say that one yet.

That I was one of those people.

Were you? Well, it wouldn't surprise me. Wouldn't surprise me. They just, they couldn't figure out how to put you. You couldn't fit. You didn't fit.

I got kicked out of more than one company. And thank God I did.

Yeah, I know. I know. But it could have been handled differently. I think that if they've been able to figure out a way, how do we tap this little mini genius who's also a pain in the butt and really help us, help us grow through learning how different they are and help them get ready to go on into something else. So, you know, and maybe that's a different kind of diversity. How do we treasure? How do we treasure and nurture people who just don't fit? And that's universal. I mean, and I think that that's what we're supposed to be doing. It's not about— like, I've learned so much from the George Floyd and all the whole movement, like, that we have viewed the world through a lens which was uniquely ours for a long time. And to change that lens is tough because it means, A, we go back to I may not belong, and there's ambiguity and lack of certainty in that. And I think that learning to live in that space, the whole world's going to be a better place for it if we can just stop the judgment. And hard. We all, we all, we all judge, right? But to lessen the judgment.

I don't want to change the focus on the diversity part of this, but we just saw this weekend an amazing example about judging somebody who comes back and says, you made a mistake. That was Tom Brady, right?

Oh yeah.

I mean, who in their right mind let him go, and then he comes back and hits it with another Super Bowl win? I mean, that's got to be motivational, inspiring to so many people who knew the story.

Right, right. And we need people. We need all those heroes. And I'm glad this is Black History Month. And, and they're just the, the, the films, the stories, the documentaries. It's extraordinary. And I just— and I think there's so many ways for us to see those heroes working everyday life. They're also the people on the street, everyday life, who are our heroes. So, you know, we just need to be open to it and, and not be so caught up in our own— I say caught up in our own lens and view of the world. So.

I so agree. And yeah, I'm so thankful that you brought that up. For me, my hero is the local janitor.

Yeah.

It's the, you know, it's that person whose shoulders I climbed on to get where I am. And, um, this month, uh, let us all take a moment to think about extraordinary people And the people that were looked over and how they could have become extraordinary. So thank you for bringing that up, Catherine. Appreciate it.

You're very welcome.

So Catherine, this has been a wonderful conversation. I can't wait to see you at our virtual conference.

Yes, yes.

For ACEC, which will take place— I have to look at the dates— May 6th and 20th and June 3rd and 17th. And we have an extraordinary, extraordinary lineup of speakers. So I'm looking forward to it. We also have some great fun events planned, including some Italian guy who's going to teach how to cook.

Oh, wonderful.

My husband. He's going to teach us how to make an Italian dish.

So that's great. That's going to be— I'm looking forward to it. Well, CB, thank you for making this so, so easy and so relaxing and so interesting. And I, uh, I enjoy it very much, and I appreciate the time and effort you put in to make this work every week.

Thank you. Thank you. And everybody out there, thank you for tuning in. It's such a pleasure to bring you Different information than you might already know about, to have wonderful guests like Katherine, and to have you in the audience. It's why I do it every single week. This is CB Bowman on CB Bowman Live, Challenges of the C-Suite. Remember, on Thursday we do Workplace Equality and Equity an hour earlier, same channel. I'll see you either Thursday or next week. In the meantime, go with peace and success and celebration of who you are. Bye now.

Bye everybody. I'm good. Thanks again.