Challenges of the C-Suite with Janice Perkins, Episode 30

Okay, we're live. Hi everyone. You know it's Tuesday. No, is it Tuesday? Yeah, it's Tuesday. I forgot. Oh my God. This is because you know on Tuesdays you're with me, right? This is CB Bowman Live Challenges of the C Suite. You know I had to go through a lot to be with you today. Let me just tell you. I had a dental appointment at 8 o'clock in the morning. Wait for dental surgery. I have to have the tooth pulled. And I got there. And here's the thing. In Colorado, they don't fool around with medicine, right? In New Jersey, I just went to the dental surgeon and they sedated me and I woke up. Oops, my camera just went and it came back on. Okay, good, because you know, I mean, technology. Then you have to take 2 different mouthwashes for 2 days, and you can't eat for 8 hours, 9 hours before the surgery. So I get there and they tell me Did you have breakfast? And I said, yes, my husband made me breakfast. Sorry, we can't see you. What time did you have breakfast? About an hour ago. No, we definitely can't take you. You have to reschedule. I'm like, what? I have to go through this all again? So of course I'm exhausted, but I'm not going to let that show because I'm really happy I didn't have the surgery. I think mentally I knew that I was supposed to— not supposed But you know how that goes. I wanted to eat and I really didn't want to have the surgery.

So here—

and I want to be here with you. So, and then the other thing I did insane is I got my COVID booster and my flu shot within the same week. Can I just tell you? It's because I really love you guys. I don't want to get sick. I want to be here. So Here we are. I'll go to sleep. No, we have a great guest again today, Janice Perkins. Janice, here's my secret, she's my new BFF.

Oh.

She is the coolest woman ever. Yeah, and I just adore her. And she's a member of ACEC, or soon to be a member of ACEC. She has this amazing company and you know, she works with the big guru, the big pooper, Marshall Goldsmith, right? So we know we're in good company here. I better watch my P's and Q's. Nah, there's no fun in that. So Janice, welcome, welcome, welcome.

Thank you, CB. And guess what I did this morning? I got the bat signal from you to wear the color shirt that matches your lipstick. We're completely in sync today. I'm ready to go.

You know, hey guys, I did a program yesterday. Janice interviewed me for a training program and it was so much fun. You know, it was a real serious discussion because it was on diversity, equity, and inclusion, but it was— God, You have— you know what? You have to sign up for her program and watch it. So first, let's talk about what you're doing with Marshall. Then let's talk about you and how you got there. But let's also talk about— now let's change this order. No, let's keep it the same. Let's talk about the challenges that people in the C-suite are facing And why you're developing training programs to help them. That's the way we'll roll out. So tell us about Methods.

Perfect. So Methods of Leaders is a partnership between the people I work for who have the learning management system and Marshall Goldsmith and the 100 Coaches. So they came together a few years ago. Marshall wants to give away everything he knows. He is at that stage in life; he is a pay-it-forward guy. And he created 100 Coaches out of that same concept. That's how you and I met. And, and then he said, wait a minute, can I record some of my content and my training and have other coaches in 100 Coaches do the same thing, so that we can reach all these workers in organizations who don't get that benefit of having coaches and seminars and workshops? So Let's train the world how to be great leaders. That is where Methods of Leaders was born.

Wow, what an ambitious goal. I know our colleagues in MG100 are waiting at the door, knocking, not waiting, beating down the door to be part of this program. I felt so special to be part of it and I have seen Some of the training programs that you've done. You know what? We need to have a new name because they're not training programs.

No.

What they really are are conversations with some of the giants in our world. And it's— the conversations are like they were really sitting there in your office talking to you.

It is. And where they're literally unraveling from themselves the best content that they teach the best CEOs in the world. And so these are the questions they get asked all the time. This is the, the material within them that makes them who they are— the Global Gurus, the Thinkers50, the 100 Coaches, the best of the best. And they're telling us everything that makes them who they are that people ask from them. And so it is current; it's contemporary; it's cutting-edge. They're thought leaders. You'd have to read their books for hundreds of hours You know, to get this kind of content. It's the best of the best. So we have 14 leaders in the program right now, and we're adding new leaders and content all the time.

So my question is, how do you make it feel to the viewer that they're actually in the room? I mean, aside from the amazing videography you have, but when you listen to them, you feel like you're actually in the room. It's not just a bunch of Talking heads. How do you do that?

So it is a painstaking process that the backend pre-production guys do all the blood, sweat, and tear work on. I can't claim any of it, but we take the initial concepts and the IP from the thought leader and we turn it into a curriculum and a course that's really easily digestible for the person. The learning management system figured that out a long time ago, that people need retention and interactivity in order to actually learn something. And so it's built just like a book. In chapters. So every 3 to 8 minutes, you get a new nugget that has questions and reflection points so that you can actually digest it and think about it. It's not an online lecture. You don't sit and listen to someone dum-da-dum-da-dum-da-dum for an hour. You listen to these really insightful pieces, and that interactivity is built to enhance it. And there are downloadable workbooks. A lot of our clients use methods as cohorts. So I can have an entire team view that course independently, but every couple chapters we get together and do our workbooks together and we have this great facilitated conversation. So it makes the content come more alive.

And so do you have 2 different methods for attendees to listen to speakers? One seems to be where you do the interview. The other one is the training platform.

It's actually all in the same platform, but it is broken into different sections. And so even the live shows that some of our coaches do, for instance, Marshall did them every day for a while during COVID and then they went weekly. He and Martin still do a live show, and Chester. Those shows actually end up archived in the platform as well. So the interviews that I do, as well as some of the live shows from the coaches, and the actual high production value of the training material itself, they're all accessible within the platform.

So people choose based upon what?

Their own personal interests. So an individual can go to methodsof.com, and they can be a user just like they could at all the competitive learning platforms. You can learn a variety of things in, like Coursera, you can learn how to be a digital marketer or learn a different skill. Well, in Methods of Leaders, it's all different leadership value. So an individual can go there and belong to Methods monthly or annually and have access to that content. Organizations that we work with, actually, we customize the content for them. So if they have an emerging leaders program or management and training, or they want a set of competencies in their organization before someone's promoted into the executive level, then we can create those pathways and certifications for an organization to really give buoyancy to their existing training and leadership development?

Wow. This is really bigger than a breadbox. You can go in personally and select programs to learn from. There's different types that you can access versus hearing somebody like in a webinar or actually taking a training with homework and involvement. But also you could do it as a company. So you— a company can hire you to put together a very specific program like the one that we're going to do on diversity and inclusion. Um, and then there is the off-the-shelf that you can— well, I hate to say off-the-shelf because everything is unique that you do, right? It is the whole megillah. It is.

It's more like a semi-load.

More than that, it's the world.

It's the world.

It's the world.

And a lot of times with certain organizations, for instance, we are piloting a program with our local Chamber of Commerce. And we looked at the Chamber of Commerce's competencies and we put courses by chapter into those competencies. So there, there's a way that an organization can say, these are our pillars or our values, and we want to train, you know, these 2 competencies throughout the organization this year. And we put the content into those buckets for them, and that's what they, they use. Or they have their own internal training that can actually be in the learning management system alongside of the Methods courseware. It's really very flexible for organizations.

And, and then when a company hires you to do a specific program for them, do they always ask for a certification that they can give to those that have gone through the program?

Not always. It depends what the CHRO or the HR director are looking for, whether or not they just want that as a tool added into the value of their learning and development system so that people have access to tools Or they want to make it part of their curriculum that is required. So before someone takes a management position, they finish this management track, then that would— we would put that on a certification pathway. So the HR person would be notified of the scores and the completion and can make assignments.

Okay, so let's, let's go here. Right now in the United States, CEOs have so many challenges in front Here you go, the name of the program, Challenges of the C-Suite. What are, let's say, the top 3 challenges that you see CEOs are faced with, and what programs do you have that could support them in solving the challenges?

So the first one that comes to mind, especially right now in the last 2 years of the pandemic, is it has to do with employees' mental health, right? And so—

I was waiting for you to finish because I thought she's never going to say mental health.

I am.

Absolutely.

And people in the C-suite themselves are overwhelmed because they're having to balance. And in fact, I wrote down a phrase knowing we were going to be talking about the challenges of the C-suite. They have— they're in distress. Everyone's in distress. And when we're in distress, we we collapse into our finite self. And that has limitations. Because we don't have the ability to expand who we are and our character and our love and all these other ethereal qualities when we are trapped inside our own stress. And so we have to hand people tools to understand their emotional selves. So Dr. Raj Ranganathan, who is a professor in the University of Texas Austin, has a course in Methods of Leaders about happiness. He teaches happiness in college, which I find fascinating. But it's really about an internal understanding of what, what I need to make me tick. And I feel like when we go into our strong selves versus our distressed self, then we can have this infinite ability to expand and grow and understand what our challenge is because we can see it with different perspectives. So the beginning of it is to hand people tools to understand their emotional selves. Hortense Le Gentil has a course in the program about alignment, about my personal alignment, which is also incredibly helpful. Hand— I'd say to all these CEOs in distress, hand yourself and your employees tools for an emotional understanding.

Can you give us one example of a tool that we can use?

One example of a tool we could use. What Dr. Raj Ranganathan talks about in happiness is contentment. And he has a 5-step process. And it really starts with that personal contentment. So, if I understand my own personal contentment, then I can apply that into all the areas of my life, not just at work, but it creates more optimization. So, his tools are B.A.M.B.A. I'm going to forget right now because I'm on the spot what those 5 letters are. I would say Dr. Raj Ranganathan's B.A.M.B.A. Is a tool, and that helps us walk through that process of finding personal contentment.

What is Bamba?

Oh, you're gonna ask? I don't remember what the letters stand for.

Oh, it's a code.

It's a code. It's the 5 steps for finding that. And so that's one of the courses that— that's an incredibly easy tool to apply in this time period.

Okay, now I want to know what At least one letter stands for, but I won't put you on the spot.

Put me on the spot. Um, I know when you're talking in front of a camera, it's like, well, like, I'll think of it 5 minutes after we're off the show, but I will post it on the LinkedIn for people to be able to find it.

That's great.

That's what I'll do.

Okay. Yeah. Post it on my LinkedIn show. That would be awesome. Yeah. Because, you know, you're right. I think mental health has surpassed all of the 5 pandemics that we are in right now.

Yes.

It's like, enough already. You know, we, we just have so much misaligned information that I think is exhausting us more than the actual pandemics themselves. Like more than COVID itself. It's like, I can't even watch the news anymore because every day it's like, okay, this Johnson Johnson or whatever it is, the flavor of the day has just been approved. And I looked at my husband and I said, wait a second, are they saying that all the shots that we got were not approved? And he said, yeah, I think that's what they're saying. And I'm like, What? I went through all that torture, especially the second shot. I don't want to scare anybody. And it wasn't approved. And now I've gone through the booster and what is going on? So it is so hard to figure out what's the right thing to do. So it is.

And you know, that creates this atmosphere of skepticism and a lack of trust. And when our brains go into that cycle of fight or flight or freeze, then our brain is constantly on the lookout for danger. And so then we go into the workplace and we, and we say, are they telling me what I should believe? Are they being trustworthy? What are they saying? Can I believe that? And so we constantly find ourselves in a continual cycle of danger and looking for danger. And that is an unhealthy place. Prolonged trauma, right, can leave its imprint on us in a way that's very unhealthy. And then we assume negative intent. We're walking around with assumption suitcases, and nobody's optimized, right?

I like that phrase— assumption suitcases.

Oh, yeah. It's, it's like trunks full at this point, right? And so we just, we don't believe what's in front of us. And so leaders have to face those challenges of how do I create an atmosphere of trust and psychological safety for people so that their mental health and wellbeing can be the priority? Versus a result of the environment that we're currently in.

By the way, we just got a nice compliment. LinkedIn user, you're both wonderful. What a great discussion and insight. Thank you.

Thank you. It's because my shirt matches your lipstick. We're totally in sync. We're in sync.

Now that employees are saying we are mandating employees To have the shot, where does that take us? You know, I was talking to my husband about it the other day and he said, well, I think it's okay if somebody asked to see my medical card that I have the shots, but if they start writing down information from the medical card, I might have a problem with that. So when you say, who do you trust, it's not only the exterior about medicine right now. And not— and wait a second, even more than that, because now that we see this, I don't know what to trust with COVID then we go to, I don't know what to trust going to the dentist, right? All these things they're putting me on.

Oh, please.

And then in the office, well, if you're going to move into the medical side now and I've got to figure out what to trust when you're telling me what to do, In terms of work productivity, I am so done. I'm so tired.

Yeah. And I'm a, I'm a very skeptical person. I'm the person who, when I'm checking out at my favorite shoe store just recently, like, Dean, you don't need my phone number. Can I have your zip code? No, you can't have anything because you're gonna abuse it. I know what's gonna happen. I'm gonna get 17 emails. How did you get me on the email list? I don't need you in my space. I just like your shoes.

I just like your shoes. So it's just me.

And I'm a marketing person like you, right? We know what we try to do with, with information. We're intrusive with it. And so we have taught our culture that if you give me an inch, I'm going to take 3 miles.

Yes.

And Google knows what you're up to and where you shop for shoes no matter what. And so, so when you start getting into health issues, I mean, it's a privacy thing. And, you know, we are independent Americans, you like to protect kind of our territory. And so we're definitely pushing against walls for people that are already in distress.

Yeah, you don't need to—

don't poke the bear, right? Don't poke the bear anymore.

It's funny you said that because I used to say, listen, I'm private, but I'm an open book. But now that open book has just come— that's right, that's right. Asking, what are you doing with the information? What's The need to know. I'm so glad I'm not the only paranoid person.

So glad this is on record.

Hey guys, forgive me for coughing. It's, uh, you know, we're having bad air and cold in Colorado and COVID. Uh, it's gotten better the past 2 days, but it's set into the system. Somebody writes in, absolutely trust and psychological— where did it go? Psychological safety is key. Mental health, we are both in agreement with that. What's the other 2 that are at the top of the list for CEOs?

I would say honestly, their own distress mechanisms and their ability to balance. So what, what a CEO had to wrestle with 3 years ago is different from right now, meaning there was, there was more business decisions than emotional decisions. And, and I think it's really a matter of taking a look at that landscape and what's on the plate and realizing you have to triage things differently now than you did before. I mean, I've, I've talked to all kinds of other coaches who say that a lot of their leaders that they're working with now are asking for basic. Let's go all the way back to basic, right? This isn't, this isn't about where we were before in setting strategy and trajectory for, you know, 5 years from now. We're looking at 3- to 6-month chunks, right? So let's set our vision a little bit differently than we did before. And I think that is a huge challenge because it is a different habit than was created in the C-suite before.

So, okay, so let's talk about emotional decisions versus business decisions.

How—

I totally agree with you. And then I look at the law that really supports now more business decisions than ever before.

Mm-hmm.

And yet the reality is more emotional decisions have to be made. How does the CEO figure out what is the right thing to do for their organization?

So there's, there's a series of things that I walk leaders through to help them unlock difficult decisions. And there's a couple different steps to take. And they, a lot of them involve perspective, talking to and involving unusual voices, stepping outside of themselves in a way that they didn't do before. So there's a decision-making matrix that I use, because we tend to make decisions the same way when we're leaders for a long period of time. And this circumstance has made us have to stretch ourselves into other quadrants of decision-making. We have to take all of them into account, where we used to be strong in maybe 2 of them. And we could run leading an organization for a long period of time. And now we have to, in crisis and trauma, make decisions differently than we did before. The other thing is it's about focus. So I tell this story, CB. My daughter, when she was little, was afraid of the water. And by afraid of the water, I mean like screamed her head off embarrassingly anywhere near the water. So by the age of 3 and a half, she had been in swimming lessons for 3 summers just to overcome her fear of the water. And that 3rd summer, we were, we were to the point of blowing bubbles. That into the water, just put the face in the water. And we practice it in the bathtub. She would do wonderful. We would get in a foot and a half of water with her life jacket, holding on to the instructor, and she couldn't do it. And so after a couple of weeks of that routine, I looked at her in the bathtub while she's happily blowing bubbles. And I said, what's the difference between this and the pool? And she said, well, the pool has a deep end. And I said, okay, but you've never been in it. No one's thrown you in it. You've never experienced that. It's way across the rope. Like you're totally safe where you are. And she said, but I can see the deep end from there. And so what I tell leaders is, what are we focusing on? Like, where are we looking? And sometimes in this crisis, in this trauma, we're borrowing trouble from tomorrow in the middle of our decision-making. Uncertainty, you know, it's the little kid who's riding the bike and runs into the telephone pole every time, because that's what he's looking at. What am I adding to the mess and where am I looking and how is that interrupting my ability to make decisions now? It's changed. It's an intersection.

I'm speechless and that takes a lot. Oh, I, I've never thought about that. We are looking at the wrong place for current answers.

And sometimes we have to look farther Right? We need to look farther. Like, the perspective is get up on the roof. Let's, let's go to the balcony and let's look. Because in 5 years, guess what? Different crisis, different noise, right? So we have to look past it. But we also have to look lower. What are the next 3 steps? Not the next 25. Like, sometimes I can't look out a year, but I can get through this quarter. So it's about separating that perspective and going really high and really low and seeing if that changes the next steps I need to make and how I make a decision.

You know, it makes so much sense because we do— it's almost like when you look at a horse race and they have blinders on.

That's right.

I don't know what you call them, but, you know, you're looking straight ahead. But we've been training ourselves to be agile, and that agileness has allowed us to I don't want to say make up things, but it's the notion of what if. My husband is always complaining that I'm in what-if mode.

Hmm.

It's great because if it does happen, you're protected. But at the same point, it can stop you from free-flowing answers to where you are now and preparation. for whatever you're going through currently. So I love— tell me about the quadrants you were talking about.

Okay, so that comes from Dr. Tabea Kahler's work around the Process Communication Model, and there's internal and external. So internal is I make decisions based on my gut and my experience. External is I go get data and that's how I make decisions. So involving means I go ask people. I, you know, talk to a business colleague. I talk to my team. I talk to a mentor. I bounce things off people. And withdrawing means I go sleep on it. So we have tendencies in one or two of those quadrants when we make decisions. Crisis forces us sometimes to trust our gut and experience more. But if we're not used to that quadrant, it can be unsettling. to be forced into something when I'm used to sleeping on it, or to trust my experience when I don't have time to gather enough data. But if I have the opportunity, and in crisis and trauma, it's best to force myself into all 4 of those quadrants so that I get better perspective and get new data, involve those, those voices, those unusual voices I don't ask all the time. You know, that can really shift the perspective on the decision.

Do you think introverts are better at it than extroverts?

You know, it really depends. When I, when I do the conversation in a workshop, when there's a bunch of people in the room, I have people raise their hands in each quadrant. And almost always there's at least 2, right? But hardly anyone uses all 4. Maybe for us in our personal lives, for instance, I would say, so if you're going to buy a house, before you make a giant purchase, Would you do all 4? And a lot of times, I get a yes. But somehow, we don't translate that into corporate decisions the same way, where we make a decision in all 4 quadrants corporately, where we might more personally, because it's a different risk inside. And the other thing, when you were talking about the past, present, future, that's one of the situations that I walk people through when they get locked up is, is to try to narrow the scope to the present, even though we can rely on past experience and we know future trajectory. If we can filter them, we can see the decision in current time completely different without that attachment.

Well, I think here's where I agree with you. I agree with that fact. I think that we have somehow lost the ability to— if I can liken this to the period where companies did R&D, research and development, right? So they weren't so much looking at placing the current situation into the future. They were looking at the future and what might be solutions down the road.

Mm-hmm.

And they were being creative about it. We've lost our ability to be creative. We've lost our ability to look at what if not in a way that restricts us, but in a way that prepares us. Let me give you a really good example. So we had COVID, and people who were in the bakery business— and I'm talking about the big companies, like those companies that make bread or cakes or things like that— were hit hard because people weren't going out into the stores.

Right.

And so I was listening to a CEO of one of these companies who, who's in Italy, and he said, you know, what I didn't see coming was people weren't going to go out to buy my cakes and cookies, but they were making them at home.

Hmm.

So what I should have done is packaged up our flour packaged up our butter, packaged up the cream of tartar or whatever it is, and sold it under our label, independent. Because when you went to the store to buy these items to bake at home with your children and family, reverting back to—

Mm-hmm.

The psychometrics of your grandparents and your great-grandparents, None of it was on the shelf. Sold out. Wiped out. Because people were— they took that convenience item.

Mm-hmm.

And they said, now we have the time to become closer as a family. Let's bake together. So, you know, having that R&D department, who knows, might have said, you know, maybe we need to have line extensions. for baked items so that people could make things themselves. So I think looking into the future helps, but looking into it in a positive way, one that could enhance the bottom line versus the bottom line getting stuck. Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense. I have long since said during this pandemic that the best thing that came out of the pandemic was deliveries and pickups for restaurants.

Oh my gosh!

Right? It was solving a present problem just in the present. But it has changed the business structure for a lot of organizations, whether it's to-go meals or prepackaged meals you can bake at home. I've seen a lot of organizations pivot. It was solving a present-day problem, but it had a new future trajectory. And I find the brilliance in that, you know, you and I both think like marketing people. I'm like, Bravo, right? Out of this crisis, we have had a win for the restaurant industry that I love.

And look at the products. I mean, one of my favorite shows is Shark Tank. The other day we saw a repeat. I must have missed it. It was oatmeal to go. And it— what it is, is it's oatmeal balls that you— that are frozen. You stick them in the microwave and you Have this gluten-free whatever oatmeal in a ball like a giant M&M's, you know, chocolate bar, and you eat it on the go. And I'm thinking, you know, that's kind of perfect even back to work because I'm so tired of thinking, what do I need to make for breakfast, right?

Yes.

And so Perfect for COVID because you could then take that and make other things. But so many good products came out of it and manufacturing. Who would think that the automobile industry could make masks?

Who would have thought, right?

Right. So I totally agree with you. Okay, what's the third big challenge?

Third big challenge, you mentioned it earlier, it's blinders. You know, corporate blinders have existed in the boardroom for a long time. And, but when we recede into ourselves in distress, our blinders get bigger. You know, our perspective, we just don't have it. And we just, but this is the, we think this is the problem. This is the thing right here. And we don't take a chance to see and learn from ourselves other people in other industries, competing industries, coming to the table to solve things together. You know, people in the restaurant associations all came together to try to get business back, right? So I think those blinders made us— make us too egotistical in the moment. We're trying to protect our own ground versus having an abundance mentality and seeing how we can rely on each other to solve things. So I think the blinders is a huge problem.

So what do you have in the methods training that helps people and companies with blinders?

Um, you know, specifically, um, Marshall Goldsmith's training and Sally Helgeson. Um, Sally Helgeson, her training comes from How Women Rise. And for me as a female, that helps tremendously, the 12 triggers that females encounter in the workplace. for leaders and CEOs, tremendous training. And, and Marshall follows along some very similar things around his training in leadership that really helps us as leaders find perspective, as well as understand what's going on in here first, before we make decisions. And I think both of those courses would help tremendously with that distress, as well as the blinders.

Well, I love Marshall's book, What Got You here won't get you there. Talk about opening the blinders, right?

That's right. That's right.

My dear friend Sally, wow, she's a powerhouse. She is a powerhouse for the cause of women, and her book Women Rise is an amazing book.

It is. And in the course, she interviews CEOs that she has worked with as clients and talks about their vulnerable moments. And how those, how they took those triggers and turned them into positive and how they learned from those things. And that is so enriching to me so that I can see other leaders who I admire also being human, right, and being vulnerable in the same things that I struggle with. And I think that's what we need to feel and know as leaders. Those blinders make us start thinking that our problems are only ours. And that we're the only one who's encountered this, and we're the only one stuck. We're the only ones trying to balance our kids at home learning and our wives in the next office or whatever it is, right? We're the only ones having those struggles, or maybe 20 people I know, and that's it. But it is really a— there are universal issues that happen to leaders in the C-suite. And, and so taking those blinders off and discovering that with other people and seeing how those vulnerabilities match my own, it's a huge— it's very enriching. At least it is to me.

Let me ask you, I want to check the time because I want to talk about your volunteer work, which I just read and it shocked me. You're a powerful woman really out there making a difference. Why do you think that leaders are shy about talking about their vulnerability?

Because nobody wants Nobody wants to feel less powerful. We have an association in our culture with power and competence around vulnerability. And so vulnerability can be perceived as weakness. And we certainly feel that internally, even if it's not perceived. But as a leader, I have to be strong. But you can be strong in vulnerability. But we have this misassociation with it being emotionally weak. And we tell ourselves a story. We tell ourselves a story in here that I can't be seen that way.

Why do we feel that it's a weakness? Is it something that others say to us or do to us that makes us feel like it's a weakness instead of a strength to be vulnerable?

I think as humans, vulnerability is an exercise in difficulty regardless. I think even when you watch children and youth and teens, you know, being vulnerable about what's going on inside is hard for us. To learn to share and have emotional EQ, that's hard work. It's not innate to us. But I do think that our culture has taught us through generations, CB, leaders looked and acted a certain way. And we still have some of those stigmas. And then we have Hollywood. And we have all kinds of other things that add to this. This is the picturesque leader, cookie cutter, right? They wear a suit. They act and walk and talk this way. And they don't have weaknesses or failures or triggers or traps that they fall into. Now, we definitely want a leader to be assured and confident and competent. But with that can also be a beautiful sandwich of vulnerability. But we have to stop telling ourselves a story that it's weakness. And I have to tell myself the same story. I hear myself when I fight it, that that's going to be perceived as weakness as a female, right? After going through Sally's course, I have to recognize that my strength and my power do not come from someone else's perception of my vulnerability. So That's something we all have to fight.

This is important. You said you have to recognize that your strength and your power—

My strength and my power are not dependent on someone else's perception of my vulnerability.

Absolutely. You know, it's interesting because I had to learn the same thing leading the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches. I thought that I had to come out with guns blazing, Guys, that's a metaphor. In order to prove that I should be, can be, and will be the CEO. And what I realized was there are various ways that you could show your strength. One of them is to shut up.

It's hard for me.

No, you know, and pay more attention to you when you do speak if you're naturally a person who doesn't speak. And, and what I found out was, the more secure that I became in leadership, the more I was able to show my vulnerability.

Mm-hmm.

And it's— I wish it's some— I wish it was something that We could— all leaders could experience, because it really starts with your mindset versus what other people are saying. But you have to be in the mindset that you're strong. It is— it doesn't matter how other people see your vulnerability, as you're saying.

It is. And you have to be able to listen to that story you tell yourself. So the first thing too that I tell leaders is being vulnerable isn't easy for any of us. You know, with my best friend, you know, in the comforts of my home, absolutely. But like this, being vulnerable, it's hard. And I've said it to you before, it's the— it's not incredibly finessed when I say it this way, but it's like standing in a room with clown shoes on the wrong feet. It feels uncomfortable. I don't love it. You know, having to bridge communication with people who are difficult and being vulnerable in that, that's hard work. Right? And so it's not easy to do, but I have to listen to the story I'm telling myself. And if I'm telling myself negative things or a story that's not based in truth, meaning that means I'm weak, I have to listen to that story and I have to acknowledge that that's not true. And that's what adds to it, you know, the difficulty and vulnerability is that I don't believe it's okay. I have to get through that.

Yeah, I remember when I did training back in the day when it was really popular and big, that's EST training. One of the exercises that we had to do was enter an elevator and stand with our back towards the door. So face the crowd.

Okay.

And there was a lot in that statement, face the crowd. And I did it and it was the most bizarre thing in your life. And then later on in life, I did it again. And somehow it went from uncomfortable to being funny.

Hmm, I love that.

That I felt comfortable because people were looking at me like, are you crazy? My thinking was, yeah, I'm crazy. And I'm enjoying this. Because I can do this and you can't. Because I'm that sure of myself, I could do this and you can't. So it can take on a whole different framework if you think of yourself as having the power.

Well, and I'll agree with you in that standpoint. I could see myself early in my career being incredibly uncomfortable with that. And I always say that I came out of the womb womb at 40 years old. I was put in charge of people before I should have been put in charge of people and things. Um, I just— I came out a boss. And what happens is that you don't have the confidence or competence yet to stand in that same power. And so there's, there's, um, there's a juxtaposition that happens within yourselves that makes you really uncomfortable with understanding power and vulnerability and those things. But as you get more wise, you know, and get more Yes. experienced, I think those things level out. And so you can have a sense of humor about things in places where before you would freeze. And, um, and I think that's the gift of years that we get, right? The gift of our gray hairs, earned, all of them well earned.

Yeah, uh, yeah, it's age. And, you know, I have to tell you that the laws that we have now, uh, in the workplace about harassment You know, I understand why they're there, and there are some really good laws, but at the same time, a lot of the fun has been taken away from us. You can't joke anymore. And I remember my last, uh, position for— in a company— oh God, it was torture. But at any rate, I came out and I said, the hell with this. And now people talk— I'm so politically not correct when I'm joking around, and people just think, oh, she's an old broad, it's okay. You get away with it. Look at you, get away with it.

You've unlocked the mystery.

Exactly. And it's so much fun, right? And it's time that we brought back fun. But how do you bring it back when, you know, you're so afraid that you're gonna defend somebody, it's really a challenge. Hey, I want to get to talking about some of your volunteer work.

Okay.

I think is incredible. When I read that you were doing work with the homeless, um, in mental health, which is why you're an expert in mental health, tell me, how did you get started in this? And what is it you're doing?

So the community is doing something phenomenal, actually. I just get to be a part of it. I actually was working for a nonprofit client in town, the Union Rescue Mission, which has some really big shelters here for men and homeless. And they're working on expanding their, their offerings. But they also—

Tell people where you are.

So I'm in Wichita, Kansas. Middle of the country. And, and what happened through that work, it— and the city started this collaboration. Businesses, organizations, healthcare, and nonprofits came together having a conversation around the mental health crisis in our city and how it was affecting homelessness, how it was affecting families in the suburbs, because people still don't want to talk about suicide and mental health crisis for teenagers and how do people find resources. And so it's the Mental Health and Substance Abuse Coalition that's being formed into a nonprofit. And it is the most amazing, profound collaboration between business and nonprofit and healthcare that I've ever seen. And so we've broken into different subgroups and we're solving different problems around HIPAA so that organizations can all see the same thing, building a dashboard board, building basically a flow of information so that all the citizens and people who live here can know where to find resources. It is phenomenal work, phenomenal work. And I spent a year before that working with this nonprofit, understanding the, the crisis of homelessness in our community, and comes from a lot of meth users and mental health crisis at the same time. And, you know, sometimes it's the chicken or the egg in regard to both of those problems. And it's really affecting younger adults and kids. And I interviewed one of the, um, police captains who works on the street south of town where there's a lot of crime and transient population and street trafficking and all those things. And he told me about— it's gonna make me cry when I say it out loud— about 2 dozen kids between the ages of 11 and 15 that get dropped off down there and are wandering around. And I thought— Wait, wait, what do you mean get dropped Their parents are absentee or addicts or trafficking or something. And so there's— the police are well aware of these kids and are keeping an eye on them. And I think we're—

What age did you say?

Pardon?

What age?

11 and 15. It's gonna make me cry. Um, and I spent time with the people who run the children's homes here, and the kids between 18 and 24 don't feel like they belong in adult shelters And so they, but they age out of the foster system and they're kind of stuck. So these, these 2 high intensive areas that just make my heart get welled up with strain. We're a community of half a million people. We can save 200 kids, right? Like, what are we not doing? And what are the schools not able to do? And what, where's the system breaking down and where are there gaps? And this entire collaboration is working on that problem, and it's incredibly enriching.

Well, first of all, I have to admit to being very naive because I think about these things as a big city crisis which spill over into the, you know, smaller communities. But you don't think about it in the middle of America, the heartland of America, Wichita, Kansas, as having a big issue around this.

It is. And, you know, and I think it hits communities more than we realize that are even smaller than this. You know, I, I work with another nonprofit, um, in a smaller town in Kansas, and they break the poverty cycle. That's what their work is in. And they're, um, they're planted in like over 17 rural Kansas communities now and are spreading into Illinois and other places. Because they're finding, you know, because you can't find jobs in rural communities and there aren't support systems. And so how can we create support systems in places where there aren't any? Let's quit ignoring a population that isn't getting attention. And it's really, it is profound work. And honestly, CB, I am the least involved, if that makes sense. I feel like I'm, you know, I sit at a table with all these people doing the work every day. I'm a marketing, branding, communication person, and I'm just bringing perspective where I can and making connections where I can. These people are doing the hard work every day, you know, and they, they're trying to find employees. You know, there are all kinds of gaps in education. So, um, you know, it's really, it's really for me more about just loving my community wherever I can.

What was the trigger to bring, uh, business people together? Um, with those that are doing the work, what was the actual trigger? Did somebody just go and knock on the doors and say we need to come together?

Honestly, it actually came from the business community. The, the, the communities around the healthcare industry had been kind of trying, but they were crippled by being short-staffed and not having resource, where the business community has more resources. And they, they began the conversation because our downtown became redeveloped and more robust. And so all these burgeoning businesses in our downtown community saw these homeless transient populations and said, what can we do about that, right? This is where we now live and work, um, so what can we do about that? And so that's really where it came from. Um, there's a couple organizations that have been incredible in our community, the Greater Wichita Partnership and Visit Wichita and ICT Connect, and a lot of different organizations that are trying to bring that collaboration into Wichita where the business communities are an abundance mindset. Like, this is about our community. It's not about, um, who makes a dollar, right?

Well, it's interesting to hear you speak with such passion, um, which has been delivered to you by the business, uh, community, because from what I'm hearing, we have a member of ACEC is Dr. Terry Hildebrandt. And he lives in downtown Denver near the Capitol. And he— the pictures and the stories that he shares with us and the fact that, you know, business, the mental health, the mayor, they kind of feel like their hands are tied. And so the homeless situation is just escalating and escalating. It's like every week— I may be exaggerating, but every weekend there's an incident, um, and it's mostly those that are on drugs. And it's just getting worse and worse to the point that the homes have been devalued greatly. So how do you, how do you justify that one state can rally together and do so much, or attempt to do so much, and another state just sits, apparently seems to sit idle and let things go out of control?

I don't know that I can explain that. I've been having a conversation recently about social responsibility, and, and I, and I think sometimes we look at these giant broad topics that make the news as the main focus for corporations to have around social responsibility. But we should look in our backyard. What does my community need? Right? Because if I want to be a difference maker, it's one person at a time. It's not on a global scale, but it could multiply and it could spread. And I think that those are the decisions that I admire deeply around the businesses here that began the conversation. Their backyard mattered to them. And it was about—

community responsibility.

It's, you know, it looks different in every community.

It is. And from what I hear from him, there was a group that actually sued the state, if I'm remembering this correctly, in favor of just letting the homeless be, that they have rights. And so as a result, that scares people in politics from doing anything further to protect. So where is the ground? You know, where is the point where both come together and what kind of solutions can come? Because, you know, when you hear stories about let's build a shelter in a specific neighborhood and then the neighborhood doesn't want the shelter to be built or Let's move the homeless here or there. No, they have the rights to the street as anyone else. What is it that Kansas is doing that mitigates all of the push-pull, the yin and the yang, and allows for something to be done?

That's a really good question, and maybe because it hasn't landed in court yet somewhere, I don't know. I know that the organizations that are the nonprofits especially, their real focus, the executive directors that I've spoken with, is around cutting recidivism numbers and having sustainability. So because it's about caring for the individual person more than what it looks like, you know, so do we want to deal with the homeless because we want the city to look cleaner for talent and recruitment, or do we care about that person? And do we care about them being a member of the community? And I think, you know, yes, a business doesn't want an encampment on their sidewalk. I understand that, right? So there's a logic that comes along with that, but there's also then the value of the person. And do they know that there are resources available? And are— can they access them? And are there enough beds for detoxification? Are there enough— you know, it's really starting to ask those questions.

Yeah. Is it safe enough? You know, I say You know, when people ask me about diversity, equity, inclusion in the corporate world, I say to them, it's time to stop thinking of it as a cause and to start thinking about it as humanity.

Mm-hmm.

And it clearly sounds like what your state is doing, your area in particular, is they're looking at the homeless as part of humanity.

Mm-hmm.

cause. So what can these folks do? Because, you know, there's some assumption out there that they are there because they want to be there.

Well, we, we have this mentality like, just get a job, like pull yourself up by your bootstraps, right? And, and if we listen to ourselves, we've all thought it from time to time when we see something like that happen. But we don't understand people's circumstance. We don't, we don't understand the, the, the, the mental breakdown. And quite frankly, CB, mental health crisis is in our backyard more than it's just downtown on a sidewalk. We just, we just don't want to see it. You know, there's, um, if you remember the old TV show Designing Women that was set in Atlanta, Georgia.

Yes, of course, one of my favorites.

Yes. And I think it's Susanna, the crazy sister, I think. But she used to say the difference between the North and the South is that the North, if you lived in the North, you would hide the crazy people in your family. And in the South, they put them on the front porch. And I think about that in terms of, are we going to hide what our problems are? Are we going to actually try to take them out of the closet and solve them?

Right.

Our youth are in a mental health crisis. It goes to the suburbs. It's not just on the sidewalks of our downtowns. And we need to be able to have healthier conversations around it. and lead people to resources and be vulnerable about the problems that are happening in our own families and in our backyard so that we can have that conversation be more commonplace and so we can solve it.

Yeah, but I totally agree with you. But as we're trying to solve it, we create these insane laws that don't allow you to solve it. Right. You know, I mean, mental health issues don't stop at age 18 or 20, they continue on to later years, and then you can't do anything to help a person. And it's just— it's shameful that— I understand why the laws were created, but on the other hand, they're not created from a holistic perspective.

They're not actually going to help the person.

No, right? The person— they're not going to help the people that are trying to help the person. It's just on the books to keep a certain percentage of the people quiet.

Mm-hmm.

And that's it. And so where do we start changing from there has become the first order of business, because it's locking our hands from doing what we may feel or may wear it very well be the right thing to do.

Well, and it's not— it's about not being very curious, right? Um, asking ourselves really, um, strategic questions around, does that help the community grow? Does— is that more loving? Is that more loving to that individual?

And, and the, the—

all the situations and the laws and the tools that we put in place have to be able to answer those questions better. Um, we have to be able to ask them.

And what happened to our politicians being courageous? What happened to the laws being courageous? It all seems to have faded away. And so what's next for our society?

Um, well, we could get in a conversation about courage all day long. Um, because I— we want things to look a certain way to people. We want perceptions to be there versus reality. And so we're creating veneers. And, and that's not, that's not sustainable.

Um, excuse me. Um, I totally agree with you. Excuse me, audience. Um, well, to take us back to you, young lady, I applaud everything that you're doing, from creating phenomenal training programs to the work that you're doing with the helpless the work you're doing in mental health. I just don't know how you have all of the time and stamina to do what you're doing, but mankind is grateful.

Well, thank you for making that part of the conversation today. That means a lot to me to be able to, to bring it forward. I definitely like shining a light on what I think this community is doing well, because it's very profound to me. You know, I've lived in cities all over the country and overseas. And I'm a Midwestern girl at heart. I love the heart of Midwestern people, and I love what this community is doing in loving each other. And it might be still messy, and it might move pretty slow at times, but it is loving people deeper, and that's what matters for me. So that's really important. Thank you for bringing that into the conversation.

Absolutely. We have about— we don't, but I'm going to squeeze in 2 minutes I want to know about your company. Just give us a brief overview. We know that you play a major role in Methods, but you also have another organization.

I do. I created Capacity Communication a few years ago. I've been a consultant on and off for a long time in the marketing space and building strategies for people, training boards and executive teams. But I got into people dynamics about 20 years ago and began training. about 10 years ago, because people, we're crazy creatures and we get in our own way. And so what gets me out of bed every day is to help one person get out of their own way so they can love people deeper. Because the truth is we lock ourselves up and we create our own obstacles. And having self-awareness and the ability to have this interaction more purely and successfully means I can multiply that over and over again all day long. And you can multiply that over and over all day long. So it's enabling people. It's called Capacity because I love the juxtaposition between my finite talents and gifts and, and how I view my infinite ability to grow my heart and my character, which is unlimited and unbounded. And that's what we could do every day that we're here.

Well, audience, Janice didn't mention that she's also a world-class connector. When I had problems with, uh, the conference we did on workplace equity and equality in terms of getting the word out, my call was to Janice. Janice said, I've got the person to help you, and he did. And so thank you. So this is a woman to reach out to. How can people reach you, Janice?

So my email address is janice@cbowman.com. I have capacity.com. My website is I have capacity.com. Of course, you can find me on LinkedIn, Janice Perkins. I'm all over the social media. And, and I do, I love connecting. I, I'm a business development person at heart. And so connections is a big deal for me, especially bringing more people I love into other circles with more people I love. So you have been a joy since the moment I met you. You You ooze authenticity and joy. Your belly laugh is one of my favorite sounds, so I love doing it with you. And being here is an honor and a gift. So thank you for letting me share this with your audience.

Well, thank you so much. And we look forward to part 2. Hey, everybody, please tune into Methods and give the full name and the website.

It's methodsof.com, Methods of Leaders. You can find us through Marshall Goldsmith's 100 Coaches. Or methodsof.com, and you can find us on social media as well. LinkedIn under Methods, and reach out to me about courses or how to get your company connected into Methods of. You can find me at janice@methodsofleaders.com, which is my corporate address for Methods, and again on social media through LinkedIn. And I will post the Bomba technique later today since I did not get that out earlier.

Wonderful. Well, when you post it on my profile, you'll see a connection to connect with her on LinkedIn. Dennis, it's been a pleasure. I love hanging out with you. I'm so glad that you're part of my family. And oh, Allison, who is a member of ACEC, just wrote in, um, and a LinkedIn user just wrote in. So just let me say, CB, magnificent.

Thank you.

Misalignment is driving us crazy. That was an earlier comment. Another comment, absolutely, trust and psychological safety is key. And then Alyssa writes in, what a fantastic point you have uncovered— emotion versus business decisions. What tips do you have for that transition under extreme stress? You know what, we're gonna have to do that in part 2.

We are. Ooh, I love it.

I'm gonna take a screenshot of that question. Alyssa— and Alyssa, uh, I'm saying Alyssa, it's Allison. Allison, if we don't get to answer, guess what? I'll introduce you to Janice because Allison is an awesome person and you'll love speaking to her. Everyone, Janice has to rock it out. Thank you so much.

Bye everybody. Thank you.

Tuesday. Thank you so much, Janice.