Challenges of the C-Suite with Caroline Boyce, Episode 14w

Hi everyone, welcome to CB Bowman Live. We have a special edition today, and by the way, you notice that there's a banner at the end of the frame here. That's to let you know that the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches and the MECO Leadership Institute have started the opportunity for you to submit a name of somebody that you feel has done remarkable things in the leadership space for our award. It is the 2021 Thought Leader of Distinction Award. So get ready and go for it. And don't forget the ACEC, Association of Corporate Executive Coaches, Conference is coming up. And listen, if you want a taste of what we're talking about, come to the pre-conference, which is on April 8th at 9 o'clock, where we're talking about associate coaches and their clients. So don't miss it. And so let me just tell you, the conference itself is going to be the 6th to the 20th of May. And June 3rd and the 17th. But because you're here on Thursday, let me tell you about the WE conference that's coming up. You know, that's Workplace Equity and Equality. That's coming up June 21st, 22nd, and 23rd. Mark your calendars, reach out to me. It's invitation only. Drop the mic. Okay. So now let's get to why we're here today. We have a special guest today, Carolyn Boyce, and I'm not alone in being your host today. We have Eugene Frazier. This is the first time we've ever done this, so hold on to your hats, send in your questions, and let's rock this out. Carolyn, tell us about yourself.

Oh my goodness, CB, thank you. It is a pleasure to be with you and Eugene today. I—

you know what, I think I pronounced your name wrong again.

That's okay, you know, okay, short story. I know that you love calling me Carolyn. I don't really mind you calling me Carolyn. There are only about you and another person named Anna who I allow to call me Carolyn. Okay, so—

Special!

But, but yeah, my name is, my name is Caroline Boyce. Um, so I'll tell you a little bit about myself, and it, you know, I'm just so happy to be on your show today. Okay, let's start from the beginning because before we, we talked today, I was talking to Eugene and I, I just gave a brief overview, and then Eugene talked to me about all the things he did. I said, wait a second, I'm not gonna let you get away with all that. So I'm gonna start from the beginning. All right, Eugene.

All right, now I love it. Man versus woman.

Okay, okay. So, um, just a brief background. I am from New York. I'm born and raised. I do not live in New York anymore. I live outside of Philadelphia. I grew up in Queens. I went to school out of Long Island. I got my degree from Stony Brook University, part of the state university system. SUNY, I don't even know if it's still there anymore, but Stony Brook is still there. Um, I went to, uh, I got my first job 14 years old. I was one of these people who always wanted to work. My parents are from the West Indies, we're from Barbados, and we work hard, okay? We work hard. And I, and I was like, the little girl. I don't know if you remember What's Happening with Dee. Do you remember that show, What's Happening?

Yes, yes.

I was Dee. I used to be the person, I'm like, I used to go to my older sister and say, listen, I wanna, I wanna earn extra money. I said, listen, I'll do your chores for you, give me $5. So she would pay. I always, I was a very, I was an entrepreneur. I like to make money. I always like to have my own things and do whatever I want and never liked asking So I was always working. Got my first job at 14 working for the Board of Education in New York City doing clerical work. And then every summer I would get a job. And then I got into college. I went to Stony Brook. I worked really hard. I got out of school and I got my first job working in a brokerage firm in New York City.

Get out of here.

What? Let me tell you, I was very, I was very lucky and I temped And I got into this brokerage firm. It's no longer in existence, 230 Park Avenue. And I'll never forget, um, I— the gentleman I worked for, Steve Ramut, if he's ever on listening, I'll never forget him. And Glenn Daly and Anna Doles, these were people who took care of me all through a large part of my, uh, career. I got in, I was an executive assistant. It was great. I mean, I didn't have a career like, I guess, people who I went to school with. People were like, where do you work? I said, well, I work at a brokerage firm, and, you know, we get free lunch and we get bonuses. I got my first bonus when I was about, I don't know, 6 months after working. I was like, I'm not leaving this job.

Yeah.

I'm sorry. My mother said— my parents said, don't you leave that job. Because that's a great job. Well, anyway, a few years afterwards, I decided, you know, I really want to be a teacher. I love to give back. I have a lot of teachers in my family. And I said, I want to be able to give back, especially being in New York. I wanted to, you know, work in the inner city and help out. I went to— I applied for graduate school at Fordham University. And I got in. I went to my boss, Steve, and I said, listen, I really am going to leave. I'm going to become a teacher. He goes, hold up, hold on. Let me do some mathematics for you. He goes, you know, if you're a teacher, I think that's great. But if you work with me and you stay with me for a little bit, you can go to school and you could still have your, you know, bonus and your benefits and still go to school. So I said, okay, I'm gonna go part-time instead of full-time. So I did that. 6 months later, he comes back to me, he says, Caroline, guess what? I'm going to another brokerage firm. You want to come with me? And I'm like, okay. So I ended up going to another— this other broker, it's no longer in existence, it's called Montgomery Securities. And we started— they started— we started a division. It was just 4 of us. It was Roman and I. And they were— it was prime brokerage. Prime brokerage meaning we serviced hedge funds. I was sort of like the operations manager, and they did, you know, sales and setting up all of the technology and everything. Well, I was 24, 25 years old, and that was the most— it was the greatest opportunity for me because I stepped in. as a young African American woman in a brokerage firm from— the company was based in San Francisco. And I ended up just blowing up. I loved working with these guys. They were like my mentors. And we just built a division that ended up from 4 people to like 300 people over 2 years.

Wow.

And we had offices in New York and San Francisco and Chicago. And I used to help open up all these offices, and then I had to learn how to build out office space. I didn't have any construction experience, but they taught me how to do it. And my bosses are like, listen, if you have any issues, just come to me. We're going to build these offices.

Caroline, Caroline, I want to slow you down because we really want our audience to understand how does a person become as sensational as you are, because I want to pose a quick question that goes back to some of the earlier conversation you were having when you first started working. Can you tell the audience what was that driving force behind you that kept you so hungry and thirsty for successful outcomes? What does that look like? What are some of the behaviors and the attributes that you were striving for to get you there?

Oh my God, I came from— that's a great question, Eugene. I come from a background where my parents, and not only just my parents, my sister, my aunts, my uncles, my friends, we were all very driven and it was instilled in us to be able to, you know, You know, you want to go out there and learn. My father was always about education. My father would have been a physicist. He wanted my sister and I to be physicists. He was just one of these people who was all about education, learn and go to school, and this is what we would do. When we were children, just so you know, we were taught that you need to learn the news, you need to go to school, you need to do well, you need to go— And not only just go to school and do well, but you have to help others. My dad was the— I used to call him the father of the block of where we grew up in Queens because he would help the kids on the block who didn't have dads. He would come home from work, you know, get out of his car, and he would talk to some of the kids who were still outside playing. Why aren't you doing your homework? Tell me what's going on, you know. He would say, like, I said, I hear Daddy's car, but I hear him talking. And by the way, my dad had a very heavy West Indian accent, but my dad dressed— he worked for American International Group. He dressed to the nines. He, when he came to work, he was polished. People respected him. And when he passed away, people that I knew, who I worked with, Knew my father, came to my father's funeral. I knew your dad. Your dad was great. That's where I get that— this drive from. It's from my family. I was so fortunate to have such a great family and friends to help me along. So that's why I think that's the answer to your question. And it just gave me that drive to always want to excel. My sister Laura Is 7 years older than me, and she— oh my God, and she was the one who graduated from high school like valedictorian. I didn't graduate valedictorian, but I wanted to be like my sister Laura. I love— and to this day, I love Laura. We live at the town over. She's a town over. She's that— CB, you should, you should interview her. She's the head of, um, services for the Quakers here in Pennsylvania, but all of the United States. And I learned so much from my sister because we were just— it was in our family, it was in our blood. That's what we did. That is so powerful.

Let me tell you, I never pose a question unless there's a follow-up context because CB and I really are striving to understand the dynamics and context of how people evolve over time. What that really is related to is the focus of our young generation now tend to not necessarily have the same frame of reference. There is a quest, and I heard you say earlier that it's all about teaching, it's all about passing it on. And we're looking for ways to pass it on to the younger generation because somewhere along the way in various pockets and geographical locations, people have kind of lost their way. They don't have that father who comes into the neighborhood and calls people out in real time on what's going on. So that's the rationale for my question. I want you to talk further about With that foundation and you moved along, what was your— should I say your balance? And how did you keep the progression of moving forward in place? What was your fallback in terms of your support or infrastructure that you needed to kind of help keep that on course?

Oh, that's a good question. You should be like on TV. With these questions, I love them. I love them. Okay, like so what were some of the things that I used to do? I had great friends who helped me also besides my family that kept me even through. I'm one of these people who has. I have a you want to laugh? I have a friend. Her name is Gina Wilson. Gina knows. Gina Wilson has been my friend since kindergarten. And her name is Gina Wilson. I don't even call her Gina. Her name is Gina Wilson. People like her, people like Claudia Lewis, who is still my best friend for all these years working at Bank of America. Having good friends who are grounded, who have sort of like the same inhibitions and drive that I have, have been important for me to have in my life. Because they— if I'm doing something wrong, I'm not sure, I can go to some of these people and say, hey, what do you think about this? And they ground me. Like, yes, even today, Claudia sends me a text. She says, how are you doing? I'm like, well, I'm going to get on this phone. This call today is my first LinkedIn. She says, listen, girl, you're going to be good. And you're going to give them what they need to hear. So don't you act nervous because you're going to do good. Whatever you say, Claudia. But, um, going back to also, you know, I, I hear what you— especially one of the things that I was doing is in New York. I haven't— I moved down here a few years ago to take care of my mother. I don't— I didn't talk about that yet. But one of the things when I lived in New York, one of the things that I used to do was I, um, mentored young ladies who were coming out of the foster care system. Because they didn't have people. I, I, I, you always like to volunteer my time and give back. And one of the things I used to tell a couple of my mentees is like, listen, don't— just because you might feel that life gave you, you know, a difficult road right now, but you can still make something out of yourself. Don't feel that you don't. You, you should always ask There's always somebody here to help you. One of the— just ask for help. And I think they've learned how to ask for help. And I said, always remember, when you get help and if somebody needs help, you always give it back. And I tell that to my nephews. I have a 25-year-old nephew and I have a 16-year-old nephew. They know from their parents and I tell them myself. always give back. They say, Auntie Carolyn, how come when we go places people always give you stuff? I'm like, because you— I treat people the way I would want to be treated. And, and if I treat you, I'm treating you good because that's how I want to be treated. That's why people— I always feel like it always comes back to you, you know.

I want to interrupt here because there's a couple of key points that I want to go to. One is, you said you had great mentors. Great mentors don't magically appear. We know that. That is a job in itself to find them, to recognize them, and to nurture them. So let's go back to the fact that you were an executive assistant in an office. Back in the day, we called it a secretary. And you took that role and you found superb mentors. They didn't find you, you found them.

Thanks, Stevie.

Celebrated your work. What was it? What were your ethics besides the fact that your, your parents taught you to work hard, to become educated? There are a lot of people, a lot of people of color out there that work hard and are educated, but they're not recognized by mentors. They don't identify those mentors. So let's just start at that first step. What was it that you did? Can you remember back that you solicited the attention of people who could support your journey?

That's a really good question because I'm not— I—

questions.

Yeah, a load of good questions. I could give a Face the Nation, the This Week of All of LinkedIn here, you guys. But thinking back to that period of time, one of the things I remember, I know coming out of school and working in this job is like, I knew I had to be the best person I had to be. Another thing that my dad said, if you go to work, if you do anything in life, give it your 110%. If you gave it your 110%, then you're good. I guess that the people that I worked with, they liked me. They liked my personality.

They—

I always wanted to learn. I remember when I first started, I started— I'm dating myself. I got out of school in 1991. Remember, at that period of time, there weren't lots of computers. I remember I had a computer on my desk, and we— it only did word processing. There was no internet. When I first started working, we had to wear a dress, a suit with stockings. You couldn't even walk in with a pantsuit at that time. That's how old I am. But, but I, but I did what I was supposed to do, and I, I tried to do my job to the best of my ability. I always tried to learn new things and different things from different people and not just stay in my— when I say my silo, my group. Being an executive assistant, and I always tell people Like, if you get out of college, it might be great to start as an executive assistant because you get to know everybody.

Mm-hmm.

Like, I got to know the president of the company because my boss was the head of sales for the division. So sometimes I would have to go to the president of the company's assistant, I would have to go to the president, you know, various heads. So I had to be presentable. I had to know how to speak to people. So that's where, you know, When you work in those positions, you get to know people and what they do, and that's how people see how you act and how you present yourself. And, and I think when people saw that, they were like, oh, well, Caroline is, you know, she's good, she knows what she's talking about, she's working hard, you know, and that's it. But it was funny when I was getting ready to leave—

When you said you had to learn how to speak to people, what does that mean?

Okay.

A language school? I mean, come on.

Okay, when I, when I say speak to people, the art I learned, especially the art of diplomacy, you know, you have to learn. And well, I love to observe people and how people interact with each other and how do they talk to each other and what can I, you know, what makes people happy. When you talk to them. And I noticed that when you talk to people, always let people talk about themselves. Let people talk about themselves. Oh my God, they will love you. People love me because I'll just sit there and I'll go like this.

Mm-hmm.

People like, oh, Caroline, come here, come there. I'm like— but learning to listen and interact with people. Another thing I learned, and I always tell people who are younger, of course right now in COVID times you don't do this, But always when the boss asks you to go out for a drink or for lunch or for like a dinner, you go. Don't stay for long, just go. Because those types of interactions, people get to know you on a different level. And I noticed that when, hey, hey, we're going out for drinks, come on, Caroline, I would go for it. I don't drink a lot. You know, I go for a half hour, 20 minutes, but that's where you got people's guard down. People talk to you more, people get to know you better. It's, it's important to, to really get to know the people you work with. That I think is, you know—

Gosh, I wish I had you as my mentor when I was young in corporate America, because boy did I screw up.

Look at you now, my friend. Look at you now. I mean, One of the things I'll never forget, um, when I left, remember I told you I went to a brokerage firm, it's called— it was called Montgomery Securities, and we started— we had an office on Madison Avenue. I'll never forget the president of the, of the company Montgomery Securities was impressed of, I guess, with the work of the office that I set up. He went to my bosses and said, hey, you know, can Caroline come up to Boston and train the receptionist? And I was like, wow, I'm here, I am 25 years old, I look very young, and I go up to Boston. The president of the company put me up at the Four Seasons in a suite in Boston. The people saw me walking through the doors, and this little young African American, I looked like I was 16. I was like, I'm Caroline Boyce and I'm checking in. I mean, I just think they're like, who's this kid? But it's like, I, I was so— I guess I wasn't afraid. I said, you know what, I, I— when I was— I feel like I'm a little bit more cautious or afraid now, but before I didn't have fear. I'm like, I have a right to— as a young woman, I was like, I have a right to live and have a good quality of life. I am intelligent. I could be able to help others. I wanna, I wanna succeed too. So I made sure that I wasn't afraid, and I held my head up high when I was in meetings, even though I didn't know— sometimes I didn't know what I was talking about. But I would always ask a million questions. And I started off early, and I had great— like I told you, these guys, they helped me along the way. And I just, I feel like they like my personality. They thought I was doing well. They said they saw something in me, and I, and I appreciate that, that they saw that in me and they allowed me to grow. They, you know, I became a vice president like at 28. I became a principal like at 30. I was a managing director by 35 or something like that.

So, wow, you know, I'm gonna step in here because You, you were just blowing me away as I'm listening, and I just want to—

Thank you.

Have you identify for us and the broader audience a couple of key things. As you know, when people move up the ladder in corporate America, regardless of the discipline or industry that they're in, there tends to creep into their focus of ego structures and levels of importance and all of that. Can, can you talk with us a little bit about how do you maintain the level of humility that I've heard you speak on throughout your career? What's that balance?

Oof, humility, let's see.

And you have it in spades, Carolyn, so don't go, oh, Yeah, come on.

Okay, okay, I'm trying to— I'm trying to think of like give you some scenarios of where, uh, when I was— I, I told you about listening. I told you about how I, I always study people. I want to know who you are. I always learn about the people who I work with. I like to get to know the people I work with. I think it's very important. You just don't go to— you're working with people 10, 12 hours a day. You gotta know who you're dealing with and who you're talking to. So when you start to observe and see people, how do they act under certain situations and issues, you learn over time, like, how to deal with people. You know who is not susceptible of— Dealing with you sometimes, but you find out, like, maybe they like golf, or maybe they like tennis, or there's something in them that you can connect with them on that they'll say, hey, you know what, that's a good point, Caroline, you know. Oh, I saw that, that, that, that, that game, that tennis game, or the— well, that's a good point. And then they'll start talking to you about other things. What are the things that I do? My gosh, it's so funny that when you ask me these questions, it's going back in my head. But what is it that— do me a favor, Eugene, just give me that point one more time because I'm thinking.

So the point was, and I used the word humility, how did you maintain that? So let me give you a phraseology that I've done a lot of research around and currently working on. This whole notion of step aside, you have arrived.

Mm-hmm.

And when people arrive, they forget where they came from.

Oh.

People arrive, they have an ego structure that isn't so much external to them. It's more self-centric than selfless. And what you've demonstrated and talked about shares to everyone that you are operating outside of yourself. Other people were more important than yourself. It was more organic for you. But the question is, how do you balance and maintain that?

Yeah, it's just like between being with good friends and family and, well, you know, being centered. And you know what, also too, I work people who were centered. So nobody had bad egos where I worked with, because you would— because if you were, you got shot down.

Okay.

When you think of a brokerage firm, right, you've known people like Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, people there. We ran into people with egos. But for whatever reason, in the department that we worked in, that division, we didn't have that. And anybody who did come in with that attitude, We were like, oh no, we don't, we don't do that down here. And I got to— and you know what, I, I was kind of one of those people who helped dictate it because I was sort of the manager down in our department. So, and I, I would— when people would come in, I would give them the lay of the land of who we are and what's it. So I was like, okay, this is what we do. We don't— we respect each other. We respect the people down here. We don't talk nasty to each other. We're We are a group of people who love to work together. We work hard. But I got to set that tone because I started from the beginning. So I was like, I told you, I was like the 4th employee. So I got to set that tone. So it was, it was great to be able to set the tone. And my bosses agreed with me on how— and we had just such a great network of people. We had a diverse group of people that worked in our department too.

Mm-hmm.

So out of all the people in the brokerage firm, we had the most minorities within the group because what we did was, okay, hey, so-and-so, we got a job opening. Did you— were you trained for it? No? We'll train you for it. That was the kind of feeling that we had within the department. And I am friends with many of those people today. That I, you know, from, from those days at Montgomery Securities, and it ended up being Bank of America, and then the division was sold off in, um, just 2008 or something like that. But, um—

Carolyn?

Yes.

So we've heard all the good things. Now I want to ask you a tough question.

Go ahead.

Respond to criticism. Because you have such a bubbly, wonderful— and I don't mean that in a demeaning way. I mean it in a way that you have a bubbly personality that begets inclusivity. And that is phenomenal. Most people don't have that, right? So it's not bubbly just Just for the sake of bubbly. You bring, you bring people in to your value system, right? Now I want to ask you, when you were moving up, and you still are, because I've spoken to your boss and he thinks you walk on water.

Ah, I love Jack. Jack's great.

You're amazing, and he respects you so much.

And I respect him.

How do you handle— Jack says, Carolyn, I need to talk to you about something, and he come— and you come into his office and he has a criticism, a critique that somebody has said. Now, I don't know who would ever critique you, but let's just maybe go back to your past when you were younger. Many people not only take a critique to heart, they become angry. They feel like they have been pulled out from the crowd. I'm sure Eugene could phrase this better than me, but they feel like they have been singled out because of their race.

Mm-hmm.

What happened when you were criticized? How do you handle it?

Guys, okay, I mean, I'm gonna give you a good example of this.

Please.

So I've come— when I was with Montgomery Securities, I knew once or twice my boss had to sit me down and just say, listen, Carolyn, you need to do XYZ. I was always taught Again, going back to my parents, my father teaching me this, you know, don't, don't be angry if somebody criticizes you. It's just help you improve yourself. So the people that I worked with, whoever had to say that to me, I knew I didn't take it as a racial thing. I took it as, okay, they're here to help me.

Why didn't you take it as a racial thing?

Because I knew these people, the people who were Talking to me, I knew them well enough to know that they weren't because I knew them for a long time. And I was never a person when somebody was to critique me, I would also question back. I'm not afraid to go back and say to you, okay, well, where did you hear this from? And who said that to you? I think, as I said before, thank you, Mr. Luther Boyce. That's my father. who used to train my sister and I to question. Don't be afraid. Speak up for yourself. You know, if you feel that somebody's telling something that's incorrect about you, you have to learn how to speak up for yourself. And I was not afraid to speak up for myself.

Were you not criticized then for being defensive?

No, because also, I— when you I would also learn how to— there's tact of ways of saying things. You can make your point without being confrontational, and that's another thing that I had to learn. That's an art form. I can tell you something that I said, you know, let me give you an example. CB, you know what, I love your glasses, but you know, CB, earrings Maybe you could have taken those off. No, I'm just teasing. I'm just giving you an example. There's ways of saying and giving your viewpoint back and forth. Um, I'm gonna give you a better example of what I'm talking about. When I— after—

My feelings are hurt, Carol.

No, don't be.

My feelings are hurt.

No, I love your glasses and I love your earrings. I'm just, just making a point. That was, that wasn't a good one. Anyway, let me give you a better point. After I left, um, being an MD, I ended up being a consultant, and I decided I'm gonna open up my own business and I'm gonna be able to help other people. And I, I did some work as a, um, I helped build out office space, got because I had a lot of, uh, background in that. And I got a really lucrative position, consulting position, building out an office space for a French bank.

Wow.

And the person that I reported to didn't like my style of handling, you know, project management.

Yeah.

You're too nice, you're too this, you're too that. And I said, "Hold up a second," you know. I said, "Am I getting the job done? Let's go over what my issues were." To me, she's I felt like this person was just you know the person I was reporting to. He came up with all these different things that she wasn't happy with me, and I was just like, "Okay, let's go over each point now." Am I doing this? Am I? I said, "Never mind my." I said. My personality, this is who I am. I'm not changing my personality for you or anyone. This is who I am. This is where I am. This is how I get my job done. Because she wanted me to go in there just like yell at people, like, get this done. I don't do that. I said, you get— you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Now, if I have to yell at you, I will. Anybody who knows me knows that if I have to yell at you It's a bad day for you. I don't— it's a bad day because I don't do that. And because if I have to do that, it means because you did something that you know you weren't supposed to do. I don't do it. I don't like feeling— I don't do it at all. I just— but if I have to, you know. But I was like, no, I, I, I guess because you know, there are a lot of factors because some people say to me, you know, Caroline, how could you go to your boss and say that to her? You know, went back to her and I'm like, no, I'm going to be who I am. How come you were confident, confident in doing that? Like sometimes people have children, they have— they like, I'm afraid of losing my job. I'm afraid of like, um, I was the type of person, I just, I guess I'm just, I don't, I don't have children. I'm not married. I'm just like, listen, I know what I have inside of me. If I can't do this job, I'm going to the next job. Somebody's going to hire me. So I'm not afraid of, like, holding back because I always say to my friends or anybody who's— if you're not happy in a job that you're in, you know what, and they're not treating you well, there's a whole bunch of other companies out there who would take you, you know. And if you talk to your boss and you try to work it out and they're still not treating you well and giving you the respect that you need, Guess what? There's somebody out there who would like it, whether it's a job, it's a husband, or whatever. I have left the best of them, okay? Because I, I'm not gonna sit and be miserable in a job that I'm not happy with.

I love the advice that you gave when somebody critiqued. Let's take it apart, let's go over it.

Can I tell you, at the end of that project, do you know she came— that person came back to me and said, you know what, you did a really great job. I said, thank you very much.

Wow.

I just— but you can't lose yourself. And I know, I feel— and I know what you're talking about, Eugene. I know what you're talking about, DB, where people feel like— people of color. I'm like, no, what a great advice. Like, Some great advice another person told me, a friend of mine. He said, don't ever be afraid to be who you are. You hold your head up high. We have a right to be here and live well like everybody else. Don't make anybody feel that you're not important enough, you're not good enough. I am good enough.

You know, I wonder— and Eugene, jump in here— I wonder though, and I'm going to play devil's advocate. When I was growing up, my parents always said— and I'm an Army brat— my parents always said, you know, Blacks from Jamaica, Trinidad, wherever, they will succeed. They have a stronger voice. They work harder. That's right. And I, I've often wondered why that is. Why that is. Why do we see people from foreign— specifically Blacks from foreign countries, Africa— succeed faster in a more powerful way than Blacks in the United States, as, as a general statement?

I hear what you're saying. Okay, so I used to have this conversation with, you know, even though my parents are from the West Indies, I was born here, and I have friends who were born here and had parents here, and we would have these conversations. One of the things that happens is that in this country, when you were born here and you and your parents were born here, sometimes the The discrimination was so bad that people were feeling like, you know, you get this hopelessness sometimes that can go for generations. However, that's not all true too, because I know people who came from the Deep South who came up to New York and they worked their butts off to get— buy houses. And it also comes down— It It comes down to like your family and people that were there for you. So it's not just— you can't say all African Americans, but there was a lot of deep racism that was going on in this country that was very hard. Now, my— just to go back with my family, and thank you for bringing it up, I'm doing a recording with my mom. She's talking about— we're recording, my sister and I, my— our history, our family history. My father met my mother, went on vacation to Barbados, met my father, married him, and came back here with him. He was born in Barbados. When she was 4, she came to this country, and they— everybody came, you know, when you came from Barbados, the first thing you're going to do, you're going to buy a house. I don't know how these people did it in Brooklyn, buying a house in Brooklyn, but they worked 50 million jobs and they bought a house in Brooklyn, and that's what we did. But in Barbados, there was discrimination also. This whole notion— and I hate it to this day— you know, if you were a lighter-skinned Black person in the West Indies, you did well. You could work in a bank, you could work in the shops. But if you were a darker-skinned person, you didn't have those same types of opportunities. So there was discrimination all over the place. It was very, very interesting. So, but I tell you, my father, it's like our parents just, they just instilled that in us to just work hard and do the best that you can, and you did it.

So I'm gonna add a little flavor to this. Please, please do. I, being a person born in the Deep South, It's an incredible opportunity and challenge simultaneously. But what I would say in reference to CB's question, as it relates to foreign nationals that may look like us in variations of colors, shapes, and sizes, that what really kind of influenced what we experience on the U.S. side as people migrate from various areas. So when I went to Alabama State University there in Montgomery, we traditionally had a lot of Africans that came from all over Africa to school there, and they did that on the basis of it being people who look very similar to them. And but there was a certain level of superiority kind of attitude to a certain degree that automatically came with them. And I want to talk a little bit about the prevalence of that. The prevalence of that really has to do more with they have a different frame of reference because they are evolving from a non-tainted country that they were born and bred in. And there, of course, there's some intermingling even in those environments, But most of them were pure African from whatever area that they were in. And so they also, from a research perspective, tends to really have thoughts about you are not of pure blood, you are a mixture of a variety. But that's all over the world because people migrate and commingle in that sense. The other key thing is because they had to really struggle in country where they came from to the US, we can't forget that the US has always been painted as the land of freedom and the flow of opportunity. And that's what people who are not part of the US really strive to be a part of. And the individuals that are here We've become too— and I'll be frank, we've become somewhat lazy. And we've also allowed ourselves to operate— and I'll use this quick analogy. When you ask fish, so how's the water? They're in an atmosphere that's part of life. It's living and breathing and operating in the water that they're in. It doesn't exist. So frame of reference is the key driver.

No. So I want to— we have about 15 minutes left, and I want to bring this up to some current events. Columbia University. Columbia University just hit yesterday the front page because they are having graduation— that is, graduation ceremonies that are divided distinctly by both race, ethnicity, whether you're an LGBTQ person of belief, whether or not you're high income or low income. And I was like absolutely stunned when I read this. And I wonder what your thoughts were. And let me just give you some additional information before I give you that, because I was a little surprised by the article. And then I started to read that this is not something new. This is something that other universities are also doing. And so their reason, their rationale is that it gives the graduates an opportunity to be with quote unquote, their own, and they could select to join this movement or be part of the general graduating ceremonies. And I just, I was speechless. And they cited in the article, they cited 3 other universities that were doing this, but of course Columbia hit the front pages. What is your feeling about this? Is this bringing us forward or bringing us backwards?

Um, yeah, I'm— when you just said that, I was just like, what? I, I think it's bringing us backwards. Why would you sit people by your race and your— that sounds like Jim Crow South to me. I mean, I mean Why would you do something like that? I have never heard of anything like that before. And when I graduated from school, everybody— if you got your bachelor's degree, everybody who was a bachelor's degree sat in one area. You got your master's degree, everybody sat in one area. No, I think that's bringing us back in time.

Let me read.

I don't even understand why. I still don't get what you're— I have to read that article because I don't understand that at all.

Read the headline. Columbia University offering graduate ceremonies based upon race, ethnic, and ethnicity, and income status. First paragraph: Next month, Columbia University will offer six additional graduation ceremonies based upon your race, your ethnic background, and other self-identifying. Factors of undergraduate students. Native Asian, Native Asian, Latino, and Black graduate graduates are listed as options where students can register, as well as a lavender graduation for the LGBTQ community and a ceremony for first-generation and low-income Students. A university spokesman told USA Today these events are in addition to the university-wide commencement ceremony and are open to any student who wants to participate. This was something that came out of students themselves, they're saying, as well as the university. You know what? I am actually Sad, speechless, and curious.

And I agree with you. I'm very curious as to why those students— what made them feel that they weren't part of the exercises, the larger exercise?

They're able to attend both.

They can attend both, but—

Either a segregated ceremony and/or the larger ceremony. And it states a couple of other universities that have done this quietly. And I'm like, Texas Woman's University, Portland State University have also had multicultural graduation events planned later for this year. Yeah, I mean, it's like, It's hard for me to even get it out. I, I'm trying to figure out whether we're going backwards or forwards, and I'd love to have your opinion.

No, I just, I, I just think that's— listen, when I graduated from, um, uh, undergraduate and graduate school in the '90s, I do remember that we had a main graduation and That some of you, you're part of the African American Society, they had a graduate, you know, if you wanted to get together part of your group, you did that, but it wasn't like something that—

It was sort of an after-graduation ceremony.

It was like an after-graduation ceremony. It wasn't like you had a separate graduation ceremony. I think that's just going back. I don't, I don't, I don't like that at all. I don't like that.

You too?

I don't.

Well, obviously I'm going to give a diverse response because I see this in probably 3 dimensions. We often forget that around the world, from a regional international perspective, there's something called caste system, and caste systems are driven on pecking order as it relates to wealth and disparity. And arranged marriage, if you are talking about India and other places throughout the Middle East, is very, very common that people align themselves with well-to-do historical backgrounds of families. And the pecking order that falls out of that falls to the lower tier. So you got that separation of wealth versus disparity and non-wealth. The other key thing is the whole notion and difference between females and males, and if you're dealing with the environments that CB spoke about as it relates to heterosexual, non-heterosexual, and how you identify and based on the US, that's separatism in itself, but just to bring more focus to the specific areas. And I think some of their rationale may be centered around putting like and like together for harmony, but it's very short-sighted, unfortunately. The other key thing that I think is very prevalent here It's very much like in the mid-'90s when I was doing diversity awareness. One of the key things wasn't to get people to talk about anything other than similarities and commonalities because the differences are a byproduct of being actually different. But how do you begin to converge those together and From my perspective, what that is, is building in separatism, is building in a component to attract donors of the universities, to have money be allocated based on those. And if all of you don't know, let me make sure you're clear. In university environments, they get lots of sponsorship, if you will, from various people who have attended, and if they have kids there, one of the things that they do is they give generously to the environment. So this may be also appeasing donors to provide additional cash flow and finances to really attract and maintain the universities. So I think it's a complete step back, CB.

Yeah, you know, I, I thought about it and I, I The idea of being whole with your ethnic background or your sexual choice or your race sounds compelling in the fact that maybe it'll give you additional strength. At the same time, breaking down a quote-unquote universal ceremony does not allow for inclusion and learning from each other.

Right.

So where's the break? And I, I would recommend that on the global perspective, such as a graduation, we achieve together.

Correct.

you want to have unity within your race or sexual choice or, you know, your religion or whatever there, there is, allocate time to do that as a personal addition to a global reach and ceremony. Nobody's saying you have to exclude your race.

Right.

But we can't get to success, global success, global completion, global oneness without being together. And oneness does not mean forgetting or being less of in your race.

Right.

I, I want to kind of Give you an example of something that I was just thinking as you were talking about. What's very clear to me, this is very similar to some of the things that I've had to deal with when I have senior-level folks across divisions in environments that I've been a part of. You say, well, I'm going to allocate you a certain amount of headcount.

Mm-hmm.

that you can go get, and those requisitions, we want you to identify 10% of them as Afro-Americans and/or people of color, women of all in terms of minorities. And they come back and say, well, we can't find them, right? And then they come back and they say something very similar, Like, well, it's about the right person for the right job, right? And then, well, if we buy— if we get someone who is offshore, someone from a different background than what you're talking about, that's still diversity of thought. It's a deflecting tool to not deal with the reality of where we're at. And CBU said it beautifully, we are migrating to a broader level of inclusivity, not separatism, right? And that's a distinction.

Yes. Yeah. And the lower down in age that we could do that, the better off we all are, because we're propagating a future that's exactly what we're dealing with right now, right?

And it seems like that there's— somebody is I don't know if it's at Columbia, is trying to bring that back. I'm not sure. But I think that, you know, we're going— let me take this a little far out for you guys. We're going to land on Mars, what, in 2025, 2026, or something like that? We have to learn how to work and live together and work together as a group. Sooner or later, we're gonna run into some folks out there who are gonna be like, okay, what are these people? They don't know how to work with each other. They look like a whole bunch of humans together. They don't know how to work with each other.

Yeah.

I mean, come on. We gotta— yeah, I think we just gotta come back together as a group and learn how to work together and be together. And we can go so far. Yes, there are people who— we can go so far as a group. One thing about the United States of America that I love, that people should always remember, we should— when we help each other out and we work together, we can grow as a nation because there's so many of us from so many parts of the world here.

Absolutely.

You know, we built this country. Everybody built this country from all over the world, and the people who originally lived here too. So—

Caroline, you, you said it beautifully because I make it really simple. If we all embrace and aspire to just recognize what we've forgotten about humanism, everything is all good.

All good.

So with that, I'm going to call a close to our discussion today. And you know, you guys did exactly what I love. You shared learning, you shared your passion, you shared information. And by the way, Eugene and I really didn't have a chance to talk about what we've done because Carolyn stole the show.

But that's okay.

But that's why we have the show.

Oh my God, no.

Yes.

Wait, wait, can I say something else, CB?

Yes.

Can I say something real quick? You, first of all, you guys are wonderful, and, and thank you for making it easier for me because because this is the first time I ever did something. And I also want to shout out to the CFO Leadership Council, who I work for, Jack McCullough, all the great people that I work for. Because I got to tell you, the past 7 years, if you're a senior finance executive, you work— this is a great organization. And I'm proud to be part of that organization. And I work with some great people. And CB is part— and Eugene, I don't know if you know this. CB is part of our group. She's on our advisory board. for our diversity, equity, and inclusion group. And that's how I got to meet CB, through one of our members, and one of my staff. And I love her to pieces. We appreciate everything that she's doing. And I think you're going to be part of our New Hope Conference that's on June 7th through the 9th, correct?

Yes.

I think that we're going to have virtually. So if anybody has any questions about that, let me know about it. But I enjoyed being with both of you. Thank you for making it easy. I hope we can do more of these in the future.

We absolutely will. I actually am thinking about a new series I'm going to start, so stay tuned. And Eugene, you're the best. Great colleague to work for, to work with, for, and to support what you're doing. And I look forward to many more occasions and more work. And check out Eugene on— what's the— give your website, Eugene.

Uh, my website is, uh, eofchoice.com, and you can also connect with me on LinkedIn, uh, very prevalent, uh, gives you— and, uh, Caroline, it will give you a, a, a better feel for who I am. So would love to connect with you on that Communication platform.

Absolutely, because I'm already thinking of you for as one of our speakers for our DEI program. So lucky you.

I'm absolutely okay.

Carolyn, you don't waste any time. Just steal all my contacts.

And you know we share, we share, CB.

We share.

You had Sandra. I had Sandra. You know, you were a moderator last. On our last program, we loved you.

I love you. I— this is just so wonderful. Back at you.

So, uh, I, I— as we're dealing with this love fest, I just want to say, uh, if I can, CB, to Caroline, that, uh, as you were speaking, I was feeling— you talked about being grounded, uh, around people who are grounded, and, uh, You didn't talk about this, but I felt it on this end. Uh, you vibrate on other folks' energy, and you bring light to situations where there may be dimness and darkness. And thank you for sharing that.

Oh, thanks, Eugene. You are wonderful. That was beautiful what you just said. Listen, on my gravestone, all I want is— all I wanted to say is I tried.

I really We're not even going that far.

No, right?

Hey, we're running 2 minutes over, 3 minutes over, and you know, guys, what can I tell you? It's CB Bowman Live. So please tune in on Tuesday and, um, next Thursday. We have some additional amazing guests. And you know, if you miss this show, which I hope you don't, We're on podcasts too. So, and this show, this show is rated one of the most listened to shows on Apple Podcasts. So you know what, let's go support each other. And you know, I always have to end with something, so my something today is go and support somebody else.

Help them.

reach greatness like you have. And with that, we're going to say goodbye, and we'll see you next week. By the way, don't forget to follow me on Clubhouse. I am on Clubhouse twice a week. I'm all over the place. What can I tell you? It's fun. I love it.

Wonderful, CB.

Thank you so much, so much. Thank you, Carolyn. Thank you, Eugene. And let's do this.

My pleasure.

Hi.