Challenges of the C-Suite with Liz Gutherie, Episode 3w

This is CB Bowman Live, and today we are really fortunate to have Liz Gutsridge on, and she is an executive coach, a master-level corporate executive coach with the Association of Corporate Executive Coaches. And I'm going to ask her to introduce herself, and we're going to have a great discussion today. So I'm so glad you joined us. Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

My pleasure. So Liz, tell us a little bit about yourself. I know your screen is a little dark.

Yes, and it's because we are having the— I'm in Charleston, South Carolina, which is where I now live. We are having very strong winds related to the hurricane that hit New Orleans but spared my family in Louisiana, luckily. And we have construction going on on 2 sides. So yes, so I have all the lights on and it's still pretty dark outside. So I think we'll just have to focus around here.

Okay.

So my background or what I do. So I, CB, as you said, I'm an executive coach. I also facilitate and I also consult. And my areas of interest are, really my sweet spot for coaching is with individuals who are new in an organization, new in a role, and new in a geography. So triple problems, potentially, but also triple possibilities. And I've got a background in applied neuroscience, behavior design, and lean communications.

Oh my God, Liz. All right, so I'm getting stressed just talking to you now with all this knowledge. And you're also a parliamentarian?

Yes, which I actually don't talk about that much, but CB, you seem to be very interested in it. And certainly this is the time to be a parliamentarian from the standpoint of I do work with a lot— still with a lot of organizations. I got involved in this back when I was in high school, believe it or not, as one of my 3 streams to get the hell out of Dodge. And I've continued with it all these years later, working with organizations that I really like and respect. And, um, but so I probably know too much about elections. So all of this about the absentee ballots is driving me crazy.

Okay, we're not going to go to politics because that's a whole nother show.

Yes. However, It's certainly an issue. This is my first, well, second major election living in the Deep South. And you're really starting to see the effects of voter suppression over the years.

Wow. Okay. Well, as I said, that's another show. But you also have a journalist background?

Yes. So that was one of, that was the second, stream I followed to get the hell out of Dodge. And I started my junior high newspaper and was very active and then went to journalism school. And at the time, I really wanted to be an investigative reporter. And then I got a taste of teaching newspaper. It was a great program. I was embedded in a newspaper in Huntington, West Virginia, but discovered I really did not care for small-town living. I really preferred being in an urban area. And I really was too opinionated to be a journalist. So I segued into corporate communications.

Oh my God, and that gave you more freedom?

Yes. Well, I wouldn't say more freedom, but certainly from a standpoint of I could certainly in meetings let my opinions be known. But what was interesting, which I really didn't realize until just a few years ago, how Learning the art of questioning, which I did as a journalist, has really helped me as a coach.

Well, today I want to be transparent to the audience in that you are part of my new organization, Workplace Racial Equality, and I'm so happy to have you part of it. And your area of expertise is helping us developed the certification for it. So how did you come upon this kind of knowledge?

So the— well, actually, I mean, certification is not my area of specialty. I tend to know people who know a lot about certification. Certainly I have certifications myself, but it's not an area— I mean, where I really tend to shine more is Doing a lot of problem solving. So working with organizations and people to really figure out what is the problem we're trying to solve and then figure out the best way to get people to solve it.

Okay, so great. So our certification credentialing represents a jigsaw puzzle to you. And oh, this is good. When I was coaching one of my clients many years ago, which was the American Red Cross, And it was about a year after 9/11. And my client said to me, CB, I figured you out. And I said, oh, tell me, because I haven't been able to figure me out. And he said, you see the world as a jigsaw puzzle and you like putting together the pieces. And that was such a perfect description of me. And it's that understanding of me has kept me out of trouble. So tell us, you've seen a lot, you've heard a lot. You've been through a lot with regarding social justice. And in particular, our focus is on workplace racial equality. Tell us, what are your thoughts about what's going on? Is there an opportunity for us to get on the plus side of this equation? What are you seeing?

Well, certainly I hope it's the plus side of the equation because I think for the first time, probably ever, It is on the minds of people. So certainly what has happened in 2020 has made people more aware, because I think a lot of people, it's just not been in their realm of experiences. They just have not had exposure to it. And so if you, especially if you're a white person who has not worked with a lot of people of color or had a lot of different experiences or lived in many places, you're going to have a fairly limited view of what's happening. And even someone like me who's lived all over this country, 6 years ago when we moved to the Deep South has been a real awakening for me to see, see the differences.

What do you see are the major differences?

Well, certainly from a standpoint of in a town like this, which is not— it's just more tourism and healthcare, and certainly aerospace has been growing. But as I talk to people who've lived here a long time, the middle class has basically been hollowed, hollowed out. So, for example, a lot of the large employers who had presence here, the AT&Ts, some of the power companies, some of the Utility companies have become part of larger organizations. And so the jobs that were in Charleston for middle managers, a lot of them have just evaporated.

Hmm.

So we tend to have a lot of very senior positions with smaller companies or entry-level and not that many middle manager roles.

So do you see that the place for— and I don't think you're saying this— the place for Black Americans is middle management? I mean, how are you seeing that that affects workplace racial equality?

What I'm saying is that in some of these smaller markets, one of my concerns is that if you don't have an active pipeline to bring people of color into the organization, they're not going to get in. And so they're not going to be able to move up. I mean, it just astounds me to be— and of course, you know, certainly the past 9 months we've been dealing with COVID But to be in some— we have a number of colleges here. We've got a number of business groups. And you go and pretty much everybody is white. In a state that has a fairly high percentage of African American citizens.

So, so how do we solve this? So are you saying that the large percentage of Black Americans there are not going to university?

They're going to— well, some of them are, but not in the numbers that I would hope for in 2020.

To make a difference.

Right, and certainly from a standpoint of— I mean, I live in a predominantly African American community. My dog is a therapy dog, and we visit a predominantly African American middle school where he participates in a Paws to Read program. And isn't that cute?

I love that. Tell us about that.

So, but what's interesting is that there's probably, you know, 10% of the teachers who are African American. It's predominantly white teachers. So from a standpoint, and again, this is 2020, and you really want to make sure that you've got diversity everywhere, because we all know the value of diversity. And we also want to show kids that role models, that they can grow up and be teachers, they can be firemen, they can be policemen, and they can be as well as business people.

Well, I want to go back a second. Pause to Read, because you know I am a dog lover. What is that about?

So the research has shown That kids reading to dogs improves their reading ability.

What?

Because the dog— the dogs are not judgmental. So the kids read to the dogs. The dogs aren't going to correct anything, whatever. They just listen. They're very attentive. And just 20 minutes at a time can really make a huge difference in kids' ability to read.

How incredible. Where did this research come from?

So, um, I forget who's been doing, but the programs are in, you know, like so many things in this country, they're very local. And so when we lived in California, we participated in a program. It had a different name. But it was the same thing. You would either go to the schools or go to the libraries, and here both of them, both of them support that.

I love it. I'm gonna get my little one involved in that.

Yeah, and then we had actually started a neighborhood pause to read, or we were calling it, oh, Reading with the Dogs, a play on Dancing with the Stars, and we've had to furlough everybody until things get better with the virus.

Yeah, how can you translate that to Zoom or an online platform?

So, well, actually we're having Marcel, my therapy dog, is doing online visits, which I have to say is not the same thing for him because he likes getting, getting pets and everything. But it still is better than nothing. And it's also— what I'm finding really interesting, the group that's doing it, Together Pets, has expanded the definition of what's going to be a therapy animal. So Marcel and I are on calls with birds, with geese.

No!

Miniature horses. So he finds that pretty interesting.

So now, does he pay attention to the screen? Because whenever I lift up London and Show him on the screen, he's looking all over. He's not looking at the screen.

Not as much as he used to. He's gotten really blasé about it. When I first started to do Zoom calls a couple years ago, he was very intrigued, and now it's just another thing. So, but if it's different animals, he tends to pay attention.

Yeah, London does also. If he sees another dog, he's like glued to the set. And I thought, well, that's like people. You know, we're used to the set where we see people.

So we will generally do the— with the Zoom or also Microsoft Teams for therapy pet visits, we'll generally do 5 dogs or animals at a time, and then we'll just rotate through. So he will get to see a few.

So, you know, I hadn't planned to talk about this today, but, you know, it's a great subject, and nothing on CB Live is planned. Tell us, how does— so the person is reading to the dog. How does the person get input on their reading ability? So, for example, if they pronounce a word wrong, how does that— yeah. Yeah, right.

So, but it's different coming from the pet handler as opposed to an authority figure. Because we're just kind of viewed in the background. I mean, I'm like, I'm Marcel's chaperone. So if I say something quietly, it's like, okay, you know, Marcel's person is speaking up.

I see. I love this. You know, I'm dyslexic. I'm highly dyslexic. And I would have loved this to help me read better. My dyslexia affects me When I'm tired and when I'm stressed and just sometimes at weird times. And my reading, when I'm reading to myself, I'm like— but if I'm reading out loud, I stumble. And so I would love to be able to get London involved in this program because his mom has some disabilities.

So it's just a great program because a lot of, you know, a lot of times the kids don't have dogs at home because somebody is allergic or they've been moving too much or whatever. And so this is a chance for them to spend some fun time. And some of the teachers almost use it as a reward. So the kids who've been good in class can go first to read to the dogs. And generally they'll choose the book that they want to read. Sometimes I'll bring books. that I think will interest them. And sometimes they'll take turns reading.

I'm seeing this as a massive opportunity in the Black culture because the children don't always have the opportunity to expand their reading abilities, you know, into science, history, you know, They'll probably get the basics in school if they're able to go to school on a regular basis. Now with COVID-19, I imagine that the children are not going to school like they used to. This affects the meals that they're getting, which affects their attention span, which affects the reading.

Right, right. Yeah, it is a huge, huge issue. Now the schools around here, and I think other parts of the country, are really making an effort to provide the school lunches as well as breakfasts and sometimes even afternoon snacks. So that— because some of the schools we walk around, I can just see the production lines, you know, from through the windows doing that. And because it's really, really important, because as we know, that if you, if you can't get enough food, you can't think very well.

Right, right.

And then also to the idea of having, having the reading. And we've also Last April, we put in a little free library at our house, and so I try to keep a variety of children's books as well as adult fiction for people.

I saw on Facebook, I think it was, this woman who turned her garage into a library, and the children were helping her, and they, they keep socially distant space. To come in and put the books in place. And, you know, every— the children wear a mask to come in and select the book. And I thought, if I could get my garage cleaned out, that would be an awesome thing to do. So how would this— how could people get involved in this program, and how could we have more of this in the Black neighborhoods where children are craving additional learning opportunities?

So it's very much, I think, grass— grassroots. And I think that, I mean, certainly right now we're kind of at a standstill because it's, it's trying to find space where everybody can social distance well enough, um, can be challenging. But it's, it's interesting because I'm finding that certainly with I was able really quickly to get 10 people with dogs who— and all of us are certified through one of the dog therapy programs, primarily Alliance for Therapy Dogs— who would want to do this. Because— and all of us are working.

It's—

but it's just— it's really fun to be able to volunteer with your dog and feel like you're helping people. And also to see, see how people react to your dog and the joy that they get.

So this is Alliance for Therapy?

For therapy dogs.

Yeah.

Because what's great about that, you know, your question to me about the certification, the credentialing, is if you are affiliated with a program like that with your dog, that is the indicator To the schools, the libraries, whatever—that your dog and you have passed a certain level of you know the dog is is well behaved. The dog is not going to attack anybody, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And the organization, the Alliance for Therapy Dogs, in our case, has insurance in case anything were to happen, which also gives peace of mind to these organizations. And so. They will want to make sure that you're affiliated with something like that before you bring the dogs. And what was just as kind of an aside was funny was, so we're getting ready to renew Marcel's certification. And once he passed his obedience test initially, he's golden. I'm the one though who has to take the test every year when they change the rules because they do a lot around social media because they don't want you taking pictures of people and posting and all that. And they'll do a few other things. So I have to be on top of my game to make sure I can pass the test. So he's going to be qualified to visit the hospital.

First, I'll ask you questions to prepare you for the test. That is absolutely hysterical.

Right, right.

Well, I see an opportunity here for the Alliance to allow us to do this on Zoom, and I think it's an opportunity for them to get an even larger pool to select from. So I will definitely reach out to them and see if my little one can participate.

Right, right. And the other thing too that I think is so wonderful, because I mean, Marcel, before he was furloughed, we would go to the hospital generally once or twice a week, which is a fairly big, big commitment. And then also de-stressing students at the colleges and all of that. However, I was gonna make the point, at the hospital, the dogs are such a way to bring people together.

Hmm.

So in terms of, you know, all of a sudden you find people wanting of all ilks talking to one another because they would have in common the dog.

Interesting, interesting. You know, it makes you stop and think it's too bad that the dogs can't lead us out of rage and into inclusion and diversity.

Oh, very much so, CB. Yeah.

You know, that unconditional love is what I think about, right? You know, I had an interesting question the other day from one of the other members in ACEC whose client came to them and said, do you know of any assessment that measures equality and— what was the other word that was used? Well, let's start with equality in the D&I space. Equity was the other word. So let's, let's talk about the difference between equity and equality from your viewpoint.

Yeah, so equality is this idea that we all are equal. Equity to me is more of making sure that we have opportunities that are appropriate, or appropriate is not the right word, but opportunities that are worthwhile and interesting and useful to us.

Mm-hmm.

And I think measuring, assessing this to me is challenging because it's got to be more A little bit of how you think about things, but even more so how you behave around things. And I think sometimes this trying to do self-reporting is going to be challenging because, again, you may have blind spots that you yourself just don't see.

Mm-hmm.

And I think sometimes what can be more of interest is a 360 where people can comment on you, whether or not they have see you in action of exhibiting a sense of being fair, equal, providing opportunities, and all of that.

So for our audience, uh, we have some people who are not in the coaching space online. What is a 360?

So the 360 is this idea that you're going to have people you work with, uh, both peers, direct reports, and people above you who will take an assessment— not an assessment, will just answer some questions about how they perceive you. And so generally, and you will want probably at least, I mean, ideally double digits to get a good variety of comments.

And how is that valuable to a person in an organization?

So it's really valuable because the way we see ourselves is not the way others see us. And so that perception mismatch can really cause a lot of challenges. I mean, I'm dealing right now with, with 2, coaching 2 executives whose self-opinion of themselves is very different than how people see them.

Mm-hmm.

And so it's— the 360s have been very helpful for them to say, OK, this is how others perceive me. I think I know who I am, but I'm— and I still want to be my authentic self. However, I need to adjust my behavior in certain manners to make sure that I'm going to work well with others.

Let me ask you a question since this is about workplace racial equality. Do you see a benefit or multiple benefits in people taking a 360 in relationship to their perception of social justice in the workplace?

I think it probably can help. My concern about some of this is this idea that still people wanting to hide behind tests and keeping waiting to do something when I'm a bigger proponent of having people have conversations and really trying to get to understand other people's experiences. And points of view, and doing that in a very— what's the word I want— understanding manner, and recognizing it's okay to be uncomfortable having uncomfortable conversations.

So we hear this term a lot, uncomfortable conversations, and you and I have both coached in this space. But can you talk to our audience about what does that look like? What kinds of questions would be uncomfortable? And how can we— how can the person who's receiving those questions hold it in a space that does not upset them?

Yeah. So it— and I'm going to give you the consultant answer. It really varies. And I think what is important is to have some ground rules on— and let each group kind of figure out what's best for that and, and be able to discuss that. And also trying to have— I mean, again, I keep coming— I feel awful because I generally not like to do this, but it's back to— It's challenging right now in a time of COVID because oftentimes it's easier to come to have these conversations over a meal. Oh. Because you're more relaxed, because you're more relaxed. Everybody's got to eat. And especially if you're offering a variety of foods, some of which are going to be new to people, others not. So it's a way that you're all experimenting together. Also drinking sometimes, I mean, a glass of wine or a bottle of beer can also relax people. And that can, that can help a lot. And it's also, but having these conversations to say, okay, can you describe, you know, what it was like growing up? Or can you describe some of the things, experiences that you've had? And also, sometimes the smaller the group, the better, can really be helpful. Because I think a lot of folks have not had much, back to my point, have not had a lot of exposure to different things. in terms of how people have lived their lives, and being— hearing this directly from people is, is valuable.

So what is it about the question of, tell me about your experience growing up, that makes people feel uncomfortable? Why is it a difficult conversation question?

Well, I don't think that one is difficult. I think that it's Yeah, and I think some of this is— I mean, some of the questions— I mean, people— let me back up. People are just not used to having conversations about these things.

About anything.

Yeah, and a lot of times people will start going to things like, you know, can I touch your hair? I mean, that's like, that's kind of odd. However, it can be like, um, What, for example, when I moved here, I had no clue about the, um, what do they— the school, the pipeline to the prison situation, where a lot of times school guidance counselors, rather than call, um, the principal, will often call the police. So you've got a lot of kids will be getting, mostly African American kids, who will start to be getting a record in junior high and high school for incidences that white kids would never be called on.

Give us an example. Give us an example.

So, for example, if I am a kid who talks back to a teacher, And the teacher gets upset, um, the teacher for, for me as a white kid probably would just, um, tell the principal or call my parent. For a Black kid, it's very feasible that they're going to call the police.

Really?

Yeah. And so at a very young age, kids start getting a record. And that really puts them at a disadvantage going forward. I went, for example, shortly after I got here, I went to my first ACLU meeting, of which I've been a member for years.

Tell our listeners what that is, please.

Oh, what does even the ACLU stand for? American Civil Liberties Union. And so again, an organization that protects people's rights. And they were talking about this prison— school-to-prison pipeline. And I was horrified. And I came home and I immediately called my father and I said, oh my gosh, if this had existed in Oklahoma when you grew up and I grew up, we'd have a really long record. Because both of us can be very Malvey, um, at times. So—

I'm laughing with you because I remember, and I want to come back to what you're saying. When I was a kid and I answered my teacher back, she called my mom. My mom said to me, what? When I'm not with you and you're in school, Your teacher takes my place. And I know you would never answer me back. And I got punished so bad for that. And then, well, punished, I got spanked for it. And then my mother came to school. And in front of my classmates, made me apologize to the teacher.

Oh.

And I had to sit in the corner and my mother approved it. I never spoke back to a teacher again. So the fact that— I mean, my mother was probably stronger than the police at that point. So it amazes me now I'm hearing this because in my day you called the parents.

Right. And sometimes those parents aren't available or they're at work or whatever. Or the child is living with the grandparents, the grandparents aren't available. I mean, it's so making some— it's hard to make assumptions about people's home life.

Wow. Yeah. And so when you called your father, what did they say? What did he say?

He— oh, he's like, oh my gosh, yes, I would have been— definitely have a police record by the time, by the time I'm 12.

Fascinating, fascinating. So, okay, so let's go back to this, the whole concept of what we're talking about in terms of protecting children, the whole notion of what's going on today, the, the whole concept of growing up as a Black person and protecting yourself and being recognized for the values you bring. Yeah.

And so one of the things that I've been working on, I've got an extreme interest in habits. And I've done a lot of training in that and teaching in that. And so one of the things I'm testing right now with a group of people is how, back to the workplace, how do you help people provide their own psychological safety in order to Speak up. And when they observe something that makes them uncomfortable, or, you know, somebody makes a remark that seems out of place and all that. Because when you feel social pain, it's really the same thing as physical pain. And sometimes it's worse because social pain can last with you a lot longer than physical pain. And one of the ways we're doing this is, I mean, basically 3 things can get in the way of you speaking up. The situation looks incredibly ambiguous. You feel social threats. And you feel a power imbalance. And so generally what I'm noticing with the African American young women who I've got participating in my habits study is they do not see these situations as ambiguous. They see them as somebody is saying something that's very hurtful, they may— the person who's saying it may not realize it because they're just oblivious. They've not had any of this training or exposure or things like that. However, because of social— feeling social threat and power imbalance, they're hesitant to speak up.

Okay, so let's tie this back into the unpleasant questions, which I Took you off telling you— discussing my childhood. So the unpleasant question, the one that you said, very curious about, can I touch your hair? All right. So are we connecting that with— in terms of habits, are we connecting something like that with— It's unpleasant questions, different and difficult answers. And social pain?

Yeah, there's a linkage there, I believe. But on the difficult questions issue, the uncomfortable questions, I mean, that's really going to vary person by person. And so one of the really good techniques for people to use is to say, can I ask you a question? And generally, anytime I've used that, or I've talked to other people who've used that. People will say, sure, you can ask me a question. And then if it's a question that you think is going to be uncomfortable for somebody, you can say, okay, if you don't like this question, you don't have to answer it. However, I'm curious. And the curiosity piece is really, really valuable because that opens people up. And people are much more inclined to respond to somebody being curious as opposed to somebody making a statement that, you know, you people are all such-and-such, or something else that would be considered very, very derogatory, or very condescending, or very, very mean.

You know, you're bringing up a great point, because it's a technique we use in coaching a lot, which is, can I ask you... question? Or can I ask you a personal question? Or can I ask you a question because I'm curious? It sort of lays the foundation for it to be a teaching-learning moment, right?

Exactly, exactly. And then another technique that I like to use on the, on the questions is, can I ask you a question on the scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being low, 10 being high? How much Does this issue affect you, or does this issue bother you, or how uncomfortable are you right now? And what's valuable about a rating question like that, from 1 to 10, 1 low, 10 high, it gives the— you and the individual you're asking the question of an opportunity to pause and to reflect. And to get yourself both on the same page. And so it's really helpful because again, we oftentimes will make assumptions about people and our assumptions are going to be off base. And if— but if I say to you, okay, on a scale of 1 to 10, how important is this issue to you? And they tell me it's a 3, it's like, okay, are we really— should we really spend any time on this? No. Or maybe this is just a no-brainer, we'll ask a few questions and we'll move on, but it's something that's really critical to them, I know that I want to tread more carefully because this could be, um, a something that, that's, that's top of mind for them, they're concerned about, and get wanting to get them to talk more about it.

So thank you so much because I'm doing a panel next week, uh, I think it's next week, with the finance community and asking about— the entire discussion is about planning for the what-if scenarios. And I have lots of questions because these are chief financial officers. So I must remember now to say, I'm curious, so that nobody feels uncomfortable. And I would normally only think about that in a coaching space. But it seems like it would work great for being a moderator on a panel of this.

Yeah. One of the women I'm coaching recently said that it was incredibly helpful for her because she was on getting her very first massage since COVID last week. And her masseuse, who she's known for years, started ranting about some issue in The blogosphere. And my coachee was able to start asking her questions and got her to realize her, her arguments were circular, and she was able to shut her up and enjoy a massage.

So, so now the question becomes, in the workplace, we now have laws that protect us against racism, We have restrictions on what we can ask in relationship to health. And so I'm seeing a need for people to connect with other people, and yet the laws are saying— they're putting the brakes on a lot of conversations that would otherwise connect people together. How do we— I don't want to say get around the law, But that's really what I'm asking. How do we connect better with all of these legal restrictions in front of us?

Well, I mean, I'm no lawyer, but I mean, a lot of the little legal restrictions are around questions we ask during the hiring process, and they're there for a very good reason. In terms for getting people to understand one another better, we have a lot of latitude. And I think there is to operate with maybe civility and give people benefit of the doubt in terms of— and I mean, even from the standpoint, as much as I love questions, I recognize that I don't want to be an interrogator. I want to have a conversation, and I also want to make sure that I'm listening. Because one of the things that people will often do in conversations is look for a spot to start presenting their point of view rather than continuing to hear out the individual. And, and then the other thing is to, as we were talking a little bit earlier, is just to create space for conversations. Okay. And that's where reflective things are good. Like, you know, if you were to do this again, what would you do differently? How are you going to approach this customer and getting a sense of how people really start thinking about these things and feeling about them? Okay. What were you going to say? I didn't want to cut you off there.

No, no, you're good. Because my mind is firing all kinds of questions. I want to go back to your idea of— and your studies on habit, the idea of creating your own psychological safe space. That fascinates me in terms of how to do that. The other thing I want to talk about is how there has not been a recognition up until now that coaching somebody of color is good. Mentoring somebody of color is going to be a different process than mentoring somebody who's not of color. And how do the 2 forces meet together and create this psychological safe space? What's keeping it apart from true mentoring and how to bring it together? 2 important questions. Yeah. Which one?

So I think mentoring is a great idea. A lot of mentors I've met over the years, and also talking to their mentees, are mentoring as a way like, follow in my footsteps.

Hmm.

And that's not appropriate because we're all unique individuals, and mentors need to really open up their minds about how can I work with this one individual to help them where they're at and where they want to go. And that may not necessarily be what I've done. So that's a, I mean, a whole nother issue. So I think if I were starting my career again, I would want coaches as opposed to mentors.

Talk to us about the difference.

Because coaches are trained to work with you as an individual.

On your own path.

Yeah. And how do you— how to help you become the best person you want to be, the best version of yourself, maybe is a better way to put it. And to think about what you want to do. Mentors are there to kind of, kind of guide you through situation, yet they tend— a lot of the ones that I've spoken with as well and observed, as well as talked to mentees, tend to want you to follow in their footsteps. And I've seen a lot of this. I currently coach MBA students who have both mentors and mentees. And over the years, the Students come to me and say, like, my mentor wants me to do this, but that doesn't really fit what I want to do. Should I follow? And I'm like, okay, tell me why you're interested in following something you don't want to do. Okay, thank you. I don't want to do that.

Yeah, yeah, good stuff. I think the best advice I— well, when I was in a situation at a Fortune 500 company, I went to somebody who I really didn't like but was incredibly successful. And I said to this person, what's the best advice you could give me? And it took a lot because I really— I had heard horrible things about this person, and yet she was a woman that was incredibly successful in a man's universe. And she looked at me and she said, the time to rise is during chaos. And I thought, what the hell does that mean? But you know something? I never forgot it.

Yeah. Yeah. Now, see, that is very good advice. Excuse me. I think the advantage of mentors is often they are still embedded and working in organizations. A lot of us coaches are outside, so we're not in the day-to-day fray. And so you can learn a lot from mentors. I think the questions you, as a mentee, that you need to ask are different. Would be like, you know, who— where are the bodies buried?

Yes.

In a situation in terms— yeah, in terms of that. Or if I'm going to approach so-and-so, What do you know about this individual? Or what, you know, things like that, so that you can get a better sense. And obviously it helps to ask multiple people so you can get confirmation. Um, but again, not to sense a sense that you're going to follow in the footsteps.

Exactly.

Of somebody.

And I think, I think it's really difficult for Blacks or people of color, your choice, to find mentors who really understand the need. For example, one of the great needs that is done, I think, kind of automatically with white mentees is talking about them positively in spaces where they can't speak. Right, putting them in situations where they can't always reach. And conversely, for the mentee to realize this is good stuff, not I'm being penalized. And so it takes both sides of it to create this really positive workplace racial equality.

Yeah, right.

Yeah. And yeah, I want to talk to you— let's go back again. I keep saying let's go back because you're bringing out such incredible information— to this notion of creating your own psychological safe space. And we only have a few minutes left. Time just went boom. Yes. How do you do that?

So I'm starting off by a foundational habit Which is helping people practice a daily act of kindness, both to themselves and to others, and using that as the foundation to build on, because it— providing a daily act of kindness helps you be a more empathetic person to yourself and to others. And that empathy will help you stay grounded.

You know, I have to tell you, I have a colleague who's just publishing a book, Howard Prager, on what did you do to present kindness to somebody else. And that's not the exact words, I don't want to give it away, to somebody else today. And so you're saying that act helps you create a safe space for yourself?

So you build on it. So then you start Saying, okay, a lot of daily observation questions. You want to start observing and then thinking, then start working up the ladder of then how do you deal with ambiguity? How do you deal with social threats? And how do you deal with the power imbalance? And the power imbalance is one of the hardest things to deal with. But oftentimes, if you are more aware of it, And you can decide to meet with the individual one-on-one, again, to ask, be curious and ask questions and figure out what to do. So again, helping that individual, that person with power, save face and not make them uncomfortable in front of others. And in terms of the social threats, Is starting to build confidence in yourself to think about what is the worst thing that could happen if I say nothing or say something, and what is the best thing that can happen? And looking at, are these things that are worth speaking about, and can I find somebody to partner with me? There's going to be some safety, safety in numbers. And then the ambiguous— being ambiguous is a lot of the clarifying questions come into play, because that's one of the trickier things, because again, What can be ambiguous to me may not be ambiguous to you and vice versa.

Liz, are you writing a book on this?

I am actually writing a book with a couple of colleagues on the communication habit, of which a lot of these things are part of. Yes, we've just started.

I can't wait because this— I hope you do a separate white paper on this because I really think that we need to have another show and talk about this more in depth, because it could be a protection bubble for African Americans— oh, sorry, I meant to say Black Americans on purpose— um, to provide this safe space for themselves to be able to push our cause forward.

And I also think it's very helpful for allies to start understanding that by— I think one of the, to me, the most remarkable things that's come out like the past, um, more like 18 months, because it was part of the Edelman Trust thing, is staying silent about these issues is being complicit.

Absolutely, absolutely.

But yet it is very easy to stay silent If you don't see it or if you're uncomfortable. And so the more we can encourage people, if you see something, say something, or even ask something if you're more comfortable doing that. And yes, but by being silent, you're just encouraging this continuation of bad behavior.

You know, this is so important for people in the C-suite to know. Because I'm coaching people in the C-suite, CEOs, and they come to me and they say to me, I thought if I didn't engage, it would go away. It doesn't go away. It makes the perception of you stronger in the negative zone because of media today. So you have a choice. You can use media to present your positive intent and then act on it, or you can ignore media and ignore positive intent, and the consequences will be grave.

Mm-hmm.

And, and we're not talking about physical consequences. In terms of rage, we're talking about mental consequences.

Well, mental consequences too. Exactly. I mean, you really are hurting people's ability to want to participate. And I think also too, what CEOs and other people at high organizations need to realize, Heinrich, realize is that if you have an environment that is not welcoming, not inclusive, you're not going to draw the best talent. Nobody's going to want to come to work for you.

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny how times have shifted because we went from an abundance in workforce to a lean workforce because everybody started cutting. And now I like to call it a choice workforce. Because we don't have enough people to man the stations. And people are making conscious decisions about the values of an organization. Values of an organization is not something we previously thought about. We thought about the values of individuals or people running the organization. Were they trustworthy? How did they see different social issues. Now we link it to the organization itself as a total globe.

Mm-hmm.

Is this an organization that I want to put on their coat and be recognized for? No, no, I don't want to be— I don't want my name, I don't want my resume linked with this organization. Now that's some heavy-duty stuff. Employees now have the reins. And with that, I'm going to say goodbye to our audience and invite them to come back next Thursday to hear more amazing conversation with people who are making a difference in the workplace and outside of the workplace in relationship to social justice. And also join me on Tuesdays for Challenges of the C-Suite. This is CB Bowman Live, and our guest Liz, who's left you with some thinking to do. Liz, thank you for coming on.

Thank you for having me. I've enjoyed it. Thank you very much, CB.

We'll see you around the bend, as they say.