Challenges of the C-Suite with Izabela Lundberg, Episode 3s

Hello everybody, surprise! I'm here today. We, um, we didn't do the earlier show today on workplace equity and equality, but we're doing the new show now which is called— of course it's called CB Bowman Live, right? With social media influencers and thought leaders. You know, I thought about this a long time. And I said, you know, I don't want to do something that's touchy-feely. Not that I'm against it, but you know, guys, I'm a hardcore, hard-driving woman, right? But I wanted to do something that gave you the secrets about people that are actually moving and shaking the world that you don't know about, right? You have to be part of the in-crowd to know about. So I wanted to bring them on the screen, let you listen to them, understand how they became so successful. What's going on behind the scenes? Maybe we could just learn some stuff, right? And we can incorporate it into our lives, our careers, and not struggle so hard to figure out what the secret sauce is. So that's what this new show is about, and I am super excited to invite Isabella on the show for today. Don't you love that name?

Isabella.

It's a it's got such a ring to it, right? So without further ado, and remember, I have to give you my secret for the day, but I have to think about it for today, right? Because this is a new series. We've only done one show. All right, so let me introduce superstar, super smart, who's working in the leadership space as well as on Clubhouse. So without further ado, Isabella, how are you?

I'm doing fantastic, CB. Such a great to see my fellow Coloradan and such an honor to be on your show. How are you, CB?

I'm just awesome, but I must say I'm, I'm, you know, like, I'm, I'm full of energy and I'm slightly exhausted because right now I am in the middle of doing a leadership conference and right on its heels is the Workplace Equity and Quality Conference.

I love it. You are definitely making tremendous impact in depicting not only hot topics, but obviously the ways to address future work environments that we are seeing that are dramatically changing, aren't they?

Thank you. And I love doing Clubhouse, which is one of the ways we met.

Yes, it is. And it's such an interesting how world is so small. We're here in a local community, yet we met through Clubhouse and then expanded into obviously LinkedIn and other platforms. But it's so beautiful that during the time when we are not meeting face to face and traveling, that we had a chance to do that.

Yeah. Yeah. And I have to call you out, Isabella, because isn't that a scene of New York behind you?

Yes, it is. It's, it's my heart sits and spirit is so much in New York. I cannot wait to go back and travel for business and pleasure. But I also just love a little bit of different backgrounds and scenery. So the things are not always as boring and just, you know, desks and tables and bookshelves or just to simply, you know, environments where we spend so much time and we feel like they're not necessarily bringing up the creativity. So New York is definitely my way to go.

Well, you know, I moved from New York about 3 years now and lived in New York and then moved to New Jersey and just decided I needed to have mountains. So I'm teasing you because we're both from Colorado now and I don't see any mountains back there.

I used to have a lot of mountains and I actually— that's the drop that— and views that I have in my real life. Because I'm being up in Summit County and Vail County, and it's so beautiful during the COVID to have that amazing landscape. But as again, as a city girl, I also miss travel and I miss big cities. And I had an opportunity to be in New York right before the COVID And again, I'm super excited to go back to because isn't it great to go back in your own little heaven? But yet when you need to do the business. and meet with movers and shakers. You have a chance to do that, right?

Well, yes and no. I don't miss New York because when I moved out here, I said, I'm going to find a husband. And within a year, I found a husband.

Wow. You're so intentional, Missy.

I am. I am. I said, enough of this being by myself. Enough with being with guys that I did not want to marry. And I said, I'm going to move out here and I'm going to find a husband and a father for my little 4-legged dog. And that's what I did.

Congratulations. I'm glad it worked out for you because a lot of times people move to Colorado not only to find their mate or their partner, but also to find better career paths or the better quality lifestyle. And some of us Maybe still looking for that.

Who knows? Oh, I will tell you my secret. eHarmony, right?

Oh, okay.

Yeah, I talked myself into it. I was on for 5 days and he found me and said, let's get together.

Wow, that, that is amazing. I love what you just shared here, how intentional we can be in every aspect of our lives, right? And opportunity to shift and change, and as a result, create a better world for ourselves in terms of environment, in terms of personal and professional life. And right now I feel like this pandemic is giving us a pass for all of that, isn't it?

Yeah, well, you know, we got married during the pandemic.

Wow, I didn't know that. Congratulations.

We got married in the backyard and we can only invite like 20 people. And so we invited all of our neighbors, and that was it. I said, we're not waiting, we're just, you know, we don't know when this is going to end. And besides, on my second date with him, I told him he had a year to marry me. I was full of intent.

Wow, again, talk about strong, powerful woman with intentions. Yeah, I guess that is— that's the lesson I need to hear. Just this alone is already so much valuable, and, um, thank you for I will be more intentional myself.

There's another part. A year passed and he didn't propose to me, and so I proposed to him.

Wow. And how did he take it? Obviously you got married, so he had to say yes, right?

It was, it was in a year and a half to the day, and we went in a jewelry store, and the, um, jeweler said, well, Miss Bowman, it's very in vogue for the woman to ask the man these days. And I said, really? And he said, yes. And I turned to my husband, I said, so will you marry me? And he looked at me, he said, sure.

That is so sweet. That's a beautiful story. And actually, I'm so glad you're sharing this because we as a woman need to be empowered to— we're having a lot of roles reversals, right? And not because we want to take away from men and masculinity, but because also we live in this environment where actually things go both ways, and why not to also explore that and be really adamant what we want, right?

Absolutely. And I think that sometimes we as women, um, I hate to say it, but you, you— we don't look for what we want. So I wanted a strong man. I wanted a man that was not going to be threatened by me because I'm one hell of a woman, right?

Yes, you are, and in a good way.

And so it was going to take a strong man.

Yes. And, and, and actually, this is the struggle that I also find through a lot of women that I'm being coaching, consulting, working with side by side. And a lot of times women tend to settle because— and you're right— when you don't have a strong partner, a partner that embraces every aspect of you, things usually don't work out or are very stressful and very painful.

Yes.

The same thing we see in the business. In order for somebody to lead you and lead with you requires different types of bosses. It doesn't mean the strength is overwhelming, but sometimes just presence and confidence, what I learned, can be extremely intimidating, very challenging. And with thought leaders that we're seeing and leaders in general, um, with decision-making power don't usually have that honed very well. And right now many are obviously so uncomfortable. And what we're really working on is to make them comfortably uncomfortable so that they can start accepting that and then going with the flow, and over time hopefully fully embrace it. Because we're made strong, we're made as empowered goddesses. And in many ways, men, um, specifically men without lacking confidence, they're not self-secure and they're not sure who they are. No matter what is coming their way, they're gonna have a problem. And they will have the most problem with strong, confident, outspoken, educated, smart, capable women. And right now we need that more than ever. Absolutely.

We need men like that. And I don't know why we're not nurturing it. We're not finding it, right? Something in us, you know, doesn't allow us to go for the gold. And we look for the wrong things in a man, totally, right? And then when we get it, we say, what happened? Well, what happened is you want— you didn't stay to your true north, and you didn't look for what you wanted, and you didn't go after it intentionally. And so, you know, that's it. You know, sometimes we as women, especially the strong women, that when we find somebody that fits the bill, then we shy away, and then we try to make all these changes And it just gets confused, right?

Very true, because we live in culture that has a lot of interest in labeling and a lot of things that are triggering different responses, specifically from men, traditionally the way they're raised and their belief systems, right? And why we're not traditional— so how we are raised, we're raised to serve, to be nurturing, to be this, to be that. But in a way, it's like, how about to also be empowered? How about to also lead and take a driver's seat, not only about our lives but also our careers. And right now, what we're seeing, a lot of shifts on that front as well, isn't it?

Yeah, because we believe that it has to be one way or the other. We haven't finessed the ability to have both at the same time.

Because we're not allowed in the past. When you think about it, who is given the pass for something? Who is creating room, space, support, sponsorship, impact, and influence traditionally? Who is making decisions? When you look at all of that, Right? Everything really stems from that core, how we are brought in and, and, and what capacity. And now, because we're seeing those walls crumble, we have a great opportunity, great footing to shift that around, which is also a huge fundamental change in leadership, definitely in taught leadership, but also in, in how we show up. And to be honest, CB, not growing up in this culture, I never grew up with the box and being in the box. I never knew the box existed till I got there, or at least metaphor of the box that is being artificially created. Uh, but I can tell you that many times I was forced to be boxed in or labeled with the wrong boxes around me because, um, there was no necessarily, um, either appetite or clarity or understanding and how to hone that you know, differences and, and, and how to see that as an asset versus as a, as a liability or a threat. What are— what did you experience as a strong woman, if you don't mind asking? Because that is something that I think all of our viewers and listeners can benefit tremendously.

Well, I want to talk more about your background, but to answer your question, I'm an Army brat. Do you see the hat above my head? Whoa. My father was in the military and my mother was one power-packed woman. She, like, she, she would cut you off at the knees with a laser beam. You'd never know your legs were missing, right? In a feminine way. Right.

And you know what happened?

This is a feminine, soft woman. Don't be— don't misunderstand. As we say in my race, don't get it Twisted sister.

And I love you said that because sometimes we hear still the people mistake the strength and power with overpowering, forceful, physical, when it's actually that soft, heart-centered, navigating, fluid, empowered, confident, without force and being forceful, yet extremely impactful. That a lot of even other women cannot still figure it out what that is, let alone men or how to actually be that way. It's, it's definitely the, the, the way of how we self-develop that, isn't it?

And you know, I not only did I learn this from my mother but from traveling in other countries. Italy was one, France was another. I started studying the women, and I— because I knew those women were strong, and I'm like, women are strong in the United States, but Something is missing, right? What, what is it? And I really took it on as a science and learned that science right now. Isabella, what country? Because I hear a wonderful accent. I'm so jealous.

And actually, when you mentioned Italy, it's just like so close to home. I grew up in former Yugoslavia and I am Croatian ethnicity. Obviously I'm Croatian, but I grew up with 2 writing and reading styles initially before even I was introduced to first foreign language, and my first foreign language was German. So I already had that then by time I was studying German, 3 languages under my belt. And to be honest, it's a blend of 6 different languages over a period of time. So for some people that work with very diverse groups, sometimes they can't hear it or they hear a little bit of blends of different things. So I feel like fortunate that my accent was influenced by so many different languages and cultures as a result of it.

So it's phenomenal. I am so very jealous. And so jealous you speak 6 languages. I, I can barely speak English. And I'm serious, because I'm highly dyslexic. And I've always wanted to learn other languages. But I Just my mind just couldn't absorb it, right?

That is an excellent point because a lot of times how we teach somebody or in our educational system, it's traditional approaches, but they're not necessarily, as we've seen right now in modern time, the best techniques and ways not even to teach regular students, let alone dyslexics, dyslexic ones. And I feel like sometimes we even may have a mild dyslexia like I do, uh, that cannot necessarily be diagnosed, but that doesn't mean that doesn't exist, right? And then how do you then look at yourself with the tools and what's available to minimize negative reverse impact of that, right?

Yeah.

But also to hone, uh, your skill set and keep going and keep building, um, not only your confidence but also the, the be able to truly express yourself in magnitude of different ways. So, and, and you're doing phenomenal job. If you didn't tell me, I would not know.

Thank you, thank you. Well, you know, I, for many years, I— because when, when I grew up, they didn't know what it was. And so for many years, I suffered in school and in work. And then finally, when it was diagnosed, it was such a relief to To understand. Now, I don't have any patience for people that don't understand it or don't respect it because I am like horrible, you know. Don't tell me you can cure this because I know what it is. I know what it is to live it. But once I was diagnosed, it gave such freedom to me.

Yes.

To say what it was and how it affects me and so on. But you know what, we're going off subject. I want to talk about you because Isabella, when I heard you on Clubhouse, I said, this is one hell of a woman and I have to get to know her. Um, there are not a lot of women in my field, which is leadership— I shouldn't say this— that are as sassy and as smart as I am. I say that with love.

And you are, you are definitely mover-shaker with very deep thought, profound way that comes and stems from experience as well as profound Uh, knowledge and understanding. Um, so yeah.

Well, I think a lot of it comes from being in— so when I grew up, I didn't face racism, uh, that I was aware of. My parents protected me. But when I was in the corporate world, I was shaken by it. But because I had such a strong foundation of resolve, yes, then I had to figure out how to survive in those worlds. And now I'm at the point in my life where I want to teach other people because we'd like to believe it's not there, but, uh, biases are all over the place.

And now—

I think to you in Clubhouse and you're talking about it sometimes, I just want to— I want to take over your Clubhouse and start talking about it, right? Um, but Let's please, let's go back. Tell people what you're currently doing.

Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to share and specifically on LinkedIn Live forums where we also see a lot of great leaders and decision-makers that may not be as visible and as loud and as open and as transparent in their doing, which I also think it's a huge, huge opportunity and tremendous need. What I do is, I always say I created holistic approach to— on Clubhouse, I have not only the club, but I also have the legacy leaders around it. We have a club of legacy leaders, obviously, everybody that is stemming from leadership, desire to lead better, and ultimately want to lead with purpose and achieve those goals, personal, professional, so that they feel like they really lived fulfilled life. Those are the tinkerers, movers and shakers, guys that are not accepting status quo. They're not confining. They're not putting people in boxes and definitely not boxed in. But with leadership roundtables, I recognize because I used to do a lot of mastermind before the COVID and where we'll travel, where we meet, where we'll have also virtual events, but mostly obviously opportunity to sit down and talk and really tackle some of the most complex issues that leaders are facing. And you know the drill because you've been also in executive coaching world. And this is not about just the coaching, it's about advisory, understanding and depicting complexities of issues. For me, it's obviously everything I do breeds from global perspective, global citizenship, global social impact, and also stemming into how do we show up as a brand, as decision makers, as a responsibility, not only to our team and talent and our board of directors, but overall also as a society, what kind of footprint we're actually making right now. And then what kind of footprint we absolutely need or want or desire to have. So through these leadership roundtables, we have, as you know, discussions from leaders that are new and upcoming in that world and ones that are extremely experienced, seasoned like yourself. And what is so beautiful is that I'm adamant is to create inclusion and not just inclusion of the traditional talking and what we're seeing that actually does not work, but in true essence of how people show up, how they share, how they feel welcome, accepted, how they also feel heard. And then how they also feel valued, because every single human has the value to offer to others. And if we create the space, we can figure out so many complex issues together. We can find so many choices and decisions that are better. We can all learn from each other for things that we're already doing, so you don't have to start from ground floor. And maybe you can actually meet us in penthouse and an already established environment where things can accelerate not only the learning curve or process, but absolutely outcomes. And the reason why I have this sense of urgency, CB, is because, as you know very well, we're having tremendous deficit of leaders right now that are competent in leading. Tremendous deficit in personal and professional development of skill sets that are necessary necessary today, let alone the gaps in skill set that future leadership and leading requires that are not strongly present in current DNA makeup of the leaders, aka decision makers. And what we're seeing is that we have a lot of decision makers that have chance and opportunity to lead, but they don't have a leadership skill set. And frankly, they don't care. They're being in their own bubbles when they felt like, I have my buddies, I have my support system and board of directors of my best friends, and I don't have to show up in any different way. So everything that we avoided, CB, for years and decades, it's now bleeding through. And I'm not surprised, as you mentioned earlier, to see the magnitude of issues that you need to address as an African American woman and seeing all this diversity clashings and issues that are not equally represented or heard or addressed, let alone found a solution for it, that are including right dialogue and conversation with right teams and individuals of those teams. So we have quite a bit of work to do, don't we?

We do. And there's so many things that you just mentioned that I want to go back and address. Uh, in my Clubhouse this week, one of the things we talked about, uh, just last night was, do we expect the top of organizations of Fortune 500 companies to be leaders? Do we confuse the term CEO with leadership? Because—

Yes, we do.

And, and do We confuse that with being thought leaders. We have a problem with that.

We do. That was purposely done. And when you look back where the thought leadership stemmed from and how it's been distributed and disseminated, was exactly done to give you the pass and authority and the power to do and lead and make choices and decisions without questioning your authority, your competency, and your skill set. So that's why we're synonymous for it to say thought leader equal the big title and decision-making on not only the large financial decisions, but also on the hundreds and thousands of people. But those 2 things don't equate anymore, and they are not anymore fooling anyone. And reality is not just because of digital footprint and because of opportunity that that information could be quickly shared, but it is because of reality is that actually are completely different things. That's why I keep distinguishing those individuals that have a title and power in decision-making versus leaders. They are not equal, and they are not the same. That doesn't mean that a lot of them that do have a powerful opportunity to be decision-makers that also have a great thought leadership. Absolutely. But those are far in between. And we can really depict who may be fit the bill. And that's why when you just mentioned Fortune 500, why do you think Fortune 500 depends so much on external support for advisory, for strategy, for consulting, for coaching? They have brilliant people in organizations, and are they all those brilliant people allowed to lead and really be working to maximize their skill sets and opportunities? Are they in environments where they can shine? Are they set up in environments that are either micromanaged or burnout or dealing with a lot of minutiae that over and over proves is not creating better organization, culture, productivity, and most definitely output that we desire? If nothing, this economy should startle every single one of us to really think, first of all, hey, how am I showing up? Who am I? What is my DNA? How am I being perceived? How people see me? How do I see myself? Am I consistent in what— how I'm showing up? What values do I exude? What values do I embrace and actually live by? What environments I'm creating as a result of my presence? And how am I impacting others and influencing others? What others are saying about me? Am I really paying attention and allowing to have different conversations from different groups? True thought. Go ahead.

I have to laugh because you lit up when I asked that question. You're face changed, and I'm like, you are on fire.

You just, you just knew what to ask.

And I didn't want to interrupt you, but my face was breaking from smiling so much. Like, Isabella is going for it.

I am going for it, CB, because we have to, right? This is, this is just a beautiful way to highlight what is all part of it. It's not just something what is sexy, what's attractive, what we want, and the picking from it. It's a 360-degree that we need to really understand what encompasses that, right?

Yes.

And, and how we are now looking on something from all of those different perspectives. And one analogy, CB, that I would like to use, if it's all right with you, that is fun. What I really think about is, think about you lived in New York, going in some major beautiful gorgeous building and starting from the basement and going to park your garage in those buildings on the minus 5th level underground and taking elevators to the main lobby and then being prompted to go all the way to penthouse or anywhere in between and be able to stop at any level from that garage all the way to main floor to any level with that building and different departments and different function and having a conversation and dialogue and being visible, being present, being known, being accessible, being approachable. That is what thought leadership should be and needs to be about. And understanding what you're running, who you're running, who is the part of it, who do you have? The sad part is we don't even still know who do we have in our organizations. When I look at organizational reorgs and charts and restructure, specifically right now post-COVID, I'm sure will be a lot of interesting dialogues. And I joke around, I was like, we're having org charts looking like huge Swiss cheese holes. I mean, everybody can relate to slice of Swiss cheese in their hand and looking through it and joke around when we were kids, right?

What a perfect analogy.

And some of those holes are like landmines. I joke around, some of them are big like a Grand Canyon. And not only they're big, but they're also deep because we didn't realize how deep they go, because we underestimated them, because we really did not build good solid foundation, or we really damaged certain departments or certain divisions of organization in some parts of the world, or whatever might be this scenario. And I'm really talking now from the global perspective because that's the lens I always look at, not only because of the degree in global business management but also because of my exposure and experience and working so closely with highly diverse teams in different working environments that are far in between headquarters. And further you removed, you have so many subcultures and different types of cultures and different ways of operating that are very shocking sometimes to even the, the headquarters teams because they're oblivious, because they're not where they need to be. They're not on all those grounds and they are not looking things from different perspective. And now we cannot afford not to.

But here's the thing that's even scarier, is that organizations that started out that way on the positive of being able to stop on any floor and have positive and creative dialogue, then they start overthinking themselves. And Google is a perfect example.

Yes.

When he started, I mean, you— people would pay Google to work for Google, right? It was innovative. It was destructive. It was exciting. It was, it was a force. And then as the CEO got older, he started to move into the classic culture, and that was the beginning of the downfall. And then once realized, he said, oops, we've got to get back to where we were. We don't have those juices anymore.

Guess what?

It's too late. And we see that with a lot of the young organizations that start, and we admire their tenacity, their creativity, their ability to communicate, the ability to problem solve. And then we see they're blindsided by some advisor or somebody who's come in and said, no, you have to read this book and you have to do it this way.

I love what you're sharing because We don't— we're looking at Fortune 500 and fast-growing startups. Why fast-growing startups offer solutions that Fortune 500 are buying? Because they're nimble, they can do quickly, but also they have phenomenal cohesion of teams. So knowing team dynamics, team behavior, all of those pieces, right? It's like you cannot just say because we're too big, we cannot have very strong cohesive teams, and that is just excuse, right? It's a different ballgame, but absolutely you can still preserve phenomenal culture. How many organizations can say that? And I'm glad you're sharing and using an example with the Google, for example, because I remember going to their campuses in Boulder years and years ago and just being super jazzed and then going to their campuses in Silicon Valley, in the Bay Area, and then seeing certain things and dynamics. And then over the years, some of my Google friends that transitioned or some of them continued to stay. And as they also went on the global scale and in different parts of the world, and you were spot on. When you are deviating from your instincts, your core, because all of us know what's the best for us. And if we're talking what is the best for us, then we will know what's the best for team.

Absolutely.

And if we're having right conversations and questions, then we will know at any given time what is the best for organization. But why we're not asking right questions and continue to ask the right questions and continue to question and challenge that? Because we get comfortable, because we get too big, we get too mighty, we get too arrogant, whatever might have you, right? But the real thought leaders that we again And praise and need the most are the ones that continue learning, that continue challenging themselves as well as others, from their processes, from their strategies, to their decision-making, making sure that at any given time really paying attention for the right things and not losing track and getting sidetracked with all of that that is going to dilute not only the vision, but also the culture, the objective, and, and start embracing a wrong— of wrong, um, elements. One thing, CB, what I was really, uh, interested in, uh, to share, if you don't mind.

Yes.

Um, I remember I was doing, uh, couple speaking engagements right before, uh, COVID. My last trip was through Chicago. Uh, prior to that, I was in New York. For the combination of things and other cities. And I remember when I was putting together this presentation in front of executives and decision-makers of large companies and their satellite offices in the Midwest, there was an interesting dialogue. And I put something in their perspective, and they told me they never had anyone deliver engagement to them in a way that they had numerous ahas and ahas and ahas that they're like, well, like, how do we never connect the dots? And one of my strengths was obviously to connect the dots for them. And if you don't mind, I would love to connect some of the dots for our audience and listeners.

Please.

So if you look at even summaries, how do we exit 2019 in the United States, just corporate America, without even looking what happened on global scale. We had such a high exodus for that last decade, uh, before COVID even hit, before even we're aware of the COVID How many CEOs of large corporations exited? Uh, majority of them were let go. Few of them are being allowed to transition on their own terms. But reality, we know there was so much lawsuit, miscommunication, misconducts. On average, they had 2.5 to 3, let's just say 3 misconducts, and maybe even plus some of them 5 or 6 or more.

Wow.

Every single misconduct still are misconducts that we will think at this time and age. And we had a major, not just from CEOs, so that started with CEOs, but then remainder of the C-suite and high-level executives were senior vice presidents, And all others, I didn't even want to count. I didn't even want to look at because I knew you usually, as you know, anytime one of them is leaving, it's a magnitude of others that are stepping away from that C-suite that are being transitioned as well. So why again misconducts that have number one issues around again finance? But interestingly enough, actually number one was again sexual misconduct. And then financial, and then all the other others that are very common, very common in industries. And then when you look at that, then you start questioning, first of all, how boards of directors— and what reason why there was also interview with some of the board directors, because they lost the patience, they lost the appetite, and it was not anymore did they deliver financial And and how poorly or badly or good they did. But the reality is these misconducts happened in 2029. I'm sorry, 2019. And then COVID hits. Imagine now state of some of those Fortune 500 companies that they started new year with anticipation they're going to get a better leadership. They're going to get a better C-suite assembly, better unified boards of directors, and then executive suite that's going to support C-suite. And then COVID happened and the magnitude of issues. So now we have the biggest opportunity to really play the game the right way. And if we're still not sure why and we're still not sure how, that is also a great opportunity now to truly bring competent people that can help for that game to be played the way it should be.

Yeah, I agree with that part of it, but I don't— I share a different opinion that Now is the opportunity to have those people rise to the top. And for this one reason, we haven't prepared them. So there's no pool to select from. All the pool that exists is a mirror image of what was there in 2018, 2019, 2017. I don't remember the year of Enron and Tyco. But we did not pay attention. We said, oh, these are one-offs. And we didn't— and here's the reason why it's obvious that we didn't pay attention to this is because in subsequent years we had so many people leaving, either their free will or not. And then COVID hit and nobody— well, very few at the top knew what to do. And one of the big things that we, we keep hearing is that nobody at the top knew how to express empathy. Nobody at the top knew how to question what to do next. Everybody at the top was isolated. There was no connection with the people who are on the ground, right? So if we had learned back from the finance situations, the sexual harassment situations, and we had started to groom people We would have had replacements. We don't. And still, we even have the public questioning whether or not the— those few that were able to eke through to this new normal, whether or not those people at the top are showing feminine traits instead of masculine traits that are now trying to lead the organization. So we hear things like the feminizing of leadership. Now you got me fired, right?

Love it.

We see the killing of Floyd, and the people at the top of the organizations are like, what do we do now? Well, this is not new news. We had affirmative action back way when. Right.

But was tolerated, was accepted, was endured, and tolerated and accepted and endured. So that's why I said that the last decade was also reflection of previous 4, 5, 10 decades and, and historical monumental leaps and bounds when we're maybe in a growth of organization financially and the reach, but not necessarily internally and through the very strong healthy culture. So we have pandemic beyond a pandemic virus. We have a pandemic of lack of leadership and pandemic that what that creates that is destroying health of people, that is destroying the core, core what the business institution is about and how it should be and what it is capable to be. Because we have Insane pool of smart, intelligent workforce. We have such an amazing pool of such great talent that really wants to show up and contribute, but they are not in position.

Yes, the thing is about half of them are hidden under a blanket, either because of their doing or because of the company's doing, not letting people have the voice. not letting them have the experience, just ignoring it. It's the same old, same old stuff.

Yes, and that is, CB, what I feel like it's a pandemic in, in our culture. And as results, I mean, as powerful women and educated and smart and capable and influential in that space, uh, when we arm ourselves together, I feel also this is where we have chance and opportunity to contribute in the great solutions. Because again, we have them, we know them, we know what they are, we're capable. And it's also about who allows who, who accepts who, and also why we're constantly working in a crisis mode when we can also proactively, preventatively set up and create environments that actually are consistently thriving cultures. Yeah, so that we measure the temperature where we're at. Like you were mentioning, Google, how much we're deviating from a commitment to our culture and who we are. Where are we at? Where do we need to self-correct before we crash and burn or lose either whatever is? I'm not using just necessarily them, but in general reputation. We know so many. You know what I also did, which you will be probably laughing? I compared Fortune 500. to a top Fortune 10 for decades. And last decade, I did a comparison from 2001 to 2011, and then 2011 to 2019, or that kind of window, the last 2 decades. So the most recent decade, obviously, when I did— when you compare from the top Fortune 10 How many actually, before we even start with COVID stayed on the Fortune 10 in one decade?

Well, that was, that was a great deal of Jim Collins' work in Built to Last and Good to Great.

And so scary.

Yeah.

And even I actually had a privilege to work years ago through a small consulting firm with some of those, one of those companies that he mentioned in the We know what majority of them happened, and forget about good to great greatness was that they were not even staying some of them good, and most of them lost footing and traction. But I actually did this just to also be able to educate myself and educate the audience the reality, and which companies did not make it in the last ten years the Fortune Ten status as they had for consistently prior, and why they lost it. And I did analysis. in comparison. It was not just because of finance. Obviously, everything was back to attributing to decision-making and the leadership, right? And a lack of taking action, being proactive, and really understanding what is going on in the global and local national environment. We have to read the room, not within only our peers and colleagues, but outside, what's happening with competitors, what's happening with the rest of the world, where the appetite is, where things are headed with innovation, transformation, and change. And now we have this reverse effect— forced change. And some of them are embracing finally some stages of transformation because that requires so much inner work and, and also commitment and long-term application before you see results, right? And obviously need for innovation. And as we know, we really got to that short span and we wanted to speed and expedite, which is great and fantastic. But again, if you don't have a foundation and if you don't have the support and if you're not focused on the right things, we know what happened. And then right now we're seeing, sadly, so much damage during COVID not because we had to work virtually, but just because, as you said, We were not prepared. Leaders were not prepared. Ironically, Gallup did a study. Deloitte did a study. Ernst Young did study. There was also Harvard Business Review. They did multiple different studies. But ultimately, what I depict is that even after one year in COVID, less than 25% of leaders in large companies—we're talking about Fortune 500—said that they. felt competent a year later to lead virtually.

Well, but this is no surprise. They weren't competent before, Isabella.

They had a year to trial and error to build that competency.

They can't spin on a dime because the culture is not designed that way.

That is my point that again, What— and I'm not criticizing what did they spend attention to, right? But the reality is that even with the year of the shift, they were not able to get a right footing and choices and decision-making process to change that.

Yeah, because the business plan is just not there. It's just too tight. It doesn't allow for anything to eat. Yes. Then destruction through pandemics. I mean, it's so obvious. And yet it's so clouded to people at the top.

Yes.

You start to wonder, why is it they can't see? Why is it they can't hear? A really good— and for me, I'm jumping around. It goes back to the days of something really simple in terms of products and services when companies decided to eliminate the R&D departments. What the heck was that about? You're saying that you're placing your entire future and the future of those employees just in the here and now. You have no vision, no interest in developing anything that's for the future. Right.

And even, even worse, CB, as you know, I have a master's degree in organization and leadership development, and I took 2 major subcategories when I was studying that. Because I knew in order to change anything and have our organizational effectiveness and organizational development done, done well, you also need to innovate and focus on innovation. But you also have to be focusing so heavily on adult learning and trainings, and not in old ways but in new ways. Not only where information will be absorbed, but they will be able to apply right away what they learn.

They didn't even have an understanding of the old ways.

Bingo, bingo. It brings back to your dyslexia and brings back the way you were forced to learn, that has been collectively a learning methodology for everyone versus understanding who are your students, who are you actually teaching, how they're— and what is the best way to implement technology and leverage technology, which we all love, to our strengths to help you, to give you optimal learning environments so that you can shine and succeed, let alone now to create an environment where you can apply that and look not only as an all-star yourself, but as a whole team and as an organization, right?

Look how many centuries it's taken us, first of all, to identify the term marketing, then to understand that the way that we went about marketing was so archaic because— and this is one of the reasons why I left marketing when I was at General Foods— it— because it suddenly realized that my whole job was about convincing people that they needed something they didn't really need, right? So recently we come up with this brand new philosophy that marketing is really about finding out what the consumer needs in terms of products and services and fulfilling that.

Exactly.

Why did it take us so long to get there? And we still, we still are influenced by the old definition.

You know why? Because used to be not much competition on the same product and service. Yeah, that's true. And different price points. And as consumers now, with all this device that we have in our hands, We can go and gather information without ever having conversation with any brick-and-mortar location or any, any customer service or anyone, frankly. I mean, we're talking about buying the car that we want and how much we want to spend, or home. I mean, reality is now it's like, it's, oh my god, right? I mean, I'm glad it's happening. I'm glad that it's transforming. I'm glad that is making and forcing everybody else to think. But in the same time, it is time to change those ineffective ways. How much returns we used to have, how much of craziness we used to do, because we will end up with something that we never really wanted or needed, and people will go and return. So white returns are actually decreasing because now you have a chance to really buy the product services that you self-selected because you want it. You're not You know, chase, and you now know you want it. And then you know what you want and nobody stops you. Nobody's gonna tell you— you're not gonna go on that amazon.com website and have your 24-hour or same-day delivery because you know exactly what you want, right?

Well, there's that side and there's also the Costco side, right? You don't have a choice. You want a discount, you want it at this size, this is the product you'll buy.

Seems like somebody loves some good food and gourmet stuff, and maybe have some maybe gourmet cook to make them happen.

But that's what happens when you marry a chef, right?

Yes, yes, and specifically with Italian cuisine.

Italian chef, right?

Oh my goodness, now you're making all those ladies jealous. But, but, but you're spot on. And, and, and, and we're seeing also sale approach changing. We used to go in nth degree showing the benefits of products, right, and services, and, and smother people. But in reality, like, why even smother with all the crap? We're like, I don't even need it, I don't even care, and I don't want to even hear it. But some people waste energy and, and, and then literally just try to chase and convince you or seduce you into something that was the— that was not even on your radar. And guess what they just did? And even if possibly I knew someone, or even I could possibly make a referral, just killed it, right? Killed it. All possibilities. Those things we will always remember, and they will all— because they made us extremely disrespected, not heard, not, uh, understood. And forced into something, even if it's just for someone, 15, 20, 30, 60 minutes conversation about topic you don't have absolutely no interest and desire to learn. So that arrogance of approaches, arrogance of, you know, that I need to meet my quota and self-serving attitude, all of that is crumbling sales. Marketing, operations, as well as obviously, um, overall decision-making. And from financial standpoint, where do we invest money and how do we invest money, right?

And you forget the big one— respect for companies.

Absolutely. Brand. Yes, because I always keep saying, and, and I'm so glad that finally this era, it's coming up, CB, because there was always who I was and all about always will be around people and seeing the greater good in them, seeing their potential, seeing where they are, seeing what they want, what they desire, and unleashing that in a way that they can shine and be absolute superstars. But what people are forgetting to constantly pay attention to is understanding how important it is to bring together everyone in a dialogue in these conversations, because we have capacity to solve it if we're again bringing everybody to the table, asking right questions, and really coming up with the right solutions. You're not going to have a resistance to change. You're not going to have problems, uh, what the next steps are and who is going to do, because people by nature actually are self-selecting. Self-selecting with whom they want to talk to, who they want to call friend, which Clubhouse they want to be in the inside of the conversations or the rooms, who they want to appear on their lives, who they want to extend their network to and whatnot. We're constantly self-selecting and self-directing. And if we're not understanding that and not then creating environment, then now we can self-select, and as a team and as organization, there's gonna be a lot of, a lot of more pain and more frustration. And to be honest, frankly, more financial loss.

Yeah, but what do we do about the people? And I think this is gonna be another conversation which I would love to have with you. What do we do to help those people that are afraid Afraid to step up, afraid to speak up, afraid to be, afraid to face their true north. I could go on with a list of things because those people are also getting in the way of change.

They are because of their own fears. And a short answer is read my book, From Fear to Greatness: Business, Sports, and Life Lessons. Okay, uh, the long answer is But joke on the side, I remember when I actually decided to write that book was exactly that point. Because if I— okay, I am able to depict and understand the fear factor way before obviously all these COVIDs and fear existed, right? And understanding when organizations operating and making decisions from fear versus when they're being proactive when they're really having good stand and footings, right? And right now we see more than ever fear with some legitimate reasons because of the danger, but also truly because of the way we operate, because organizations are by nature not proactive. They're reactive and they have insane high fear factor that is not serving anybody. So it's just making people more burned out, exhausted, and this COVID proved that over and over. So reality is this: if we're not starting with looking ourselves, what do we need to do to deal with our own fears and not blaming others and not ignoring and being responsible for our own actions? That is one-on-one thought leadership. That is one-on-one leadership period. So so then what everything starts with us, right? And then how do we act despite of the fear? How do we show up consistently. And as a result, then ready to lead, to show up first, to show the way, and to be those trailblazers. Right now, thought leadership, it's more than ever about trailblazing, of showing up consistently, vulnerably. I may not know all the answers, but guess what? I'm adamant with you and the rest of the team that we're going to find it together. This is how we're going to start. Do you agree? What else should we look into it? How often we should meet? What topics we should discuss? I mean, just opening doors and putting down that knowing it all and arrogance and ignorance and honestly let others contribute because everybody is eager to contribute when they know that they're going to matter, that they're going to be respected, that they're going to be included, that they're going to be heard, and most definitely accepted.

But I wouldn't—

Have those fundamentals yet figured out. No wonder everybody's scared, and no wonder everybody's feeling the fear factor, uh, to the point that they're losing their minds. No wonder we have epidemic— epidemic of mental health issues that are bleeding through, because everything is escalating. And we see what's going on in media every day, what's going on in different parts of the country every day. We're hearing what's going on with retaliation, uh, with former coworkers and who knows what, you know, because all of that is reactive pain points of unresolved long-term issues and on-added crisis over and over again.

Yeah, but I want to, I want to take it back to the fundamentals of encouraging people to just start small. I mean, we're talking on big corporate levels. We're talking about, you know, big leadership levels. So let me just go back to the basics, because for me, it's so disturbing that we don't have enough confidence in ourselves to speak up and speak out. And I don't mean when there is a tragedy like Floyd. I mean, let's start really small. You walk into a store and you see there is a line that should not happen, and you see 20 cash registers like at a Marshalls or TJ Maxx, and the line is snaking around the store and you're standing there in line. What is preventing you from going to the manager and say, we need more people at the cash register? I do that all the time, and people— oh, I'm so glad you did that. What is stopping you from doing that? What is stopping you from returning something at a store? You've worked hard, you earn the money, it doesn't work out, challenge it. That's the only way the store is going to learn. And yet we let those small things go by and they start sticking on us. Like Teflon. And before you know it, we wait till something really explosive happens that needs our attention, but we go into attack mode versus a discussion to resolve.

I mean, first of all, in order to do that, you have to have capacity and knowledge how to handle that and how you're coming across, right? So that things don't escalate. To be honest, not everybody's open for feedback. Not everybody's open for recommendations. Not everybody's open for complaints when you talk about direct one-on-one customer service, which also dramatically deteriorated, right?

Mm-hmm.

So, and COVID is again, not an excuse. Don't use that crutch, please. But reality is that again, threshold of people's competency and capacity to handle all of that just got completely absorbing and eaten up. And, and, and if it was already low, it just again bleeds through. The whole point is this: as we graduate from college, as adults, as professionals, a lot of people do not continue to self-develop and continue to grow. They do the basics, mediocre job, and they're happy with whatever scenario, and that's how they want to live. That's considered for them stress-free, peaceful peaceful, whatever, whatever it is. Those formations, those grounds are shaken up dramatically right now, and they very well know that's not enough anymore. Specifically if you're not consistently working and further developing yourself and not maturing so that you can handle the pressures, the stressors of your working environment and your scenarios. So everything starts with us. You're right, we can be great citizens by what you just said, to show up, step up, and share and contribute. But I also know by reading the room, reading the environments, reading some of those stories, reading the employees and people, I can tell you how and who and when possibly might be able to take that on or not. And, and then a lot of times it's like, am I part of solution? And is this going to be perceived as a part of solution? Or is this going to be part of the problem and is going to be turned around. So we need to understand that. But what about our own households? How about our own working life? How about our own team members? How about our own colleagues that we're supposed to be spending so much time on daily basis? You— hey, CB, you don't feel like you're doing well today? I don't mind finishing this project late before we turn it in tomorrow because it's Friday, it's deadline. Let me take a step and finish this, and let me show you what I have, and then we can quickly wrap it up. Just a collegial sense to helping and supporting each other genuinely with no agenda, sharing the credit where credit's due, just the basic human thing so that everybody is feeling included and part of it. And it's not just about me and me being superstar, but actually having my colleagues, my peers being involved. Those basic intro— not introductions, but those basic interactions, basic interactions. And I love what you said. Yes, we need to go back to basics. And more than anything, again, everything that we need to see changing needs to start changing with us and how we instruct ourselves. How we contribute, how we show up. And that's why I started with CB. And honestly, that is what I would love to end on. At the end of the day, to see anything around our world and environments, we have to be that change agent ourselves. We have to be consistent and we have to keep showing up. And from there, I honestly think we'll find more and more people that will align with that. that will desire that, that will see the value, and they will start infectiously, as we've seen in Clubhouse, coming in the rooms over and over, contributing their value and knowledge, seeing the value that we're sharing, and as a result, creating this beautiful, healthy, strong global leadership communities.

You know, Isabella, we started this conversation, I was gonna talk to you about being— how you became a thought leader, how you became a social media influencer. How many followers do you have on Clubhouse?

I have over 2,000, and to me that's not necessarily a lot, but it is about a kind of quality of people, right? Like 2,000, 2,300 or something like that. But it's about people that I now interact know that I connected with them also on Instagram and also connected with them on LinkedIn. Those are the ones that are showing up at my events, that are the ones that are also showing up in the rooms and want to have a right conversation and dialogue. The ones that are also feeling that they intimately know me after months of consistency being 3 times a week there and offering discussions around leadership roundtables so that They can feel confident and ask me questions and be vulnerable, not only in those events and these conversations and dialogues, but also finding personal— it's like, Isabella, may I ask you, I'm really struggling, I'm having this issue, what should I do? And it's so beautiful to see the quality of that, quality of new relationship, quality of new partnerships, quality of those discussions.

Because you're not supposed to say that about you. I'm supposed to say it, and I am saying it. Um, I, I don't have a chance to attend as many of your programs as I would love to because the time during the day I'm working, you know, building my company. But I want to tell you the experience that I've had. And you say only 2,000. I But it's 2,000 of the most incredible people that tune into your show and the dialogue that you lead. And more than that, I have noticed that the people that attend your Clubhouse are very protective of you and your thoughts. They want to make sure that you're heard. They want to hear what you have to say. It's almost like you're a mama bear. And they speak from their hearts. They speak from truth. They speak from questioning and questioning where they are and seeking your advice. So for my audience who's wondering what it takes to be an influencer and a thought leader, you've just heard Isabella. If you can come up to her level, that's what we're talking about. She's spoken for an hour not saying, hi, I'm a thought leader, hi, I'm a social media influencer. But by listening to her, you understand why people want to have a conversation with her, why people want to listen to what she says. We— I want to be part of her inner circle. There's no doubt about that. Because she has an incredible heart, she has incredible brain power, and she attracts incredible people. So Isabella, thank you. Thank you for doing Clubhouse. I wish I could listen to you morning, noon, and night. And I think you have to have a group outside of Clubhouse, a special group where we can all talk and follow you around. Because we learned so much from you.

I'm so deeply touched. You're so kind. And likewise, CB, it's always great to have your contributions. I see you as somebody also I look up to as a great role model. And I just wanted to say, and that's why we're going to be having more of these lives and more of the mastermind sessions and leadership roundtables in different forms like Zooms and whatnot, so that we have a chance Also to dialogue, record them, as well as obviously see each other. Right now we don't have only audio, we have a visual as well, right? And that is where the beauty is. While we're still craving that connection, we have opportunity to connect deeper, more profound ways. And, and what I also always love is just how naturally people like yourself share show up in life and it's like, wow, this is also the woman I would love to collaborate. That is the woman I would love to see how I can support and serve and also make sure she fulfills what she's trying to accomplish and/or how I can learn certain things so that I can do certain things as well. So it's all about, again, that genuine interest in others like you are demonstrating right now.

Thank you. Well, you know, we have Felicia on Clubhouse who does a dinner party every Saturday night. So I think that's what we have to do, a mastermind dinner party every whatever evening we pick. I would love to do it with you. And, you know, it, it will remind me of the old-fashioned salons when people used to just really have some great conversation, or Greenwich Village back in the day when you sat in the coffee house and you didn't agree with the people you spoke to, but when you walked out, you were so energized.

Yeah.

You had the opportunity to learn something that either fostered your disagreement or encouraged you to agree. So I am so looking forward to that experience and Likewise, CB.

Thank you so much for having me. That was an absolute pleasure. And thank you for tackling some of those major, majors, as I call them, elephants in the room. So hopefully it was beneficial to you and your audience as, as things are dramatically shifting and changing so that we can all partake in that.

Well, I'm going to play this one over and over again. So this has been an amazing interview, much more than what I expected it to be. And so thank you so much.

You're most welcome.

Well, audience, I, I don't even know what to say after this interview. This has definitely been more of the, uh, one of the most powerful interviews that I've done. I can't even figure out whether it belongs on this platform or Challenges of the C-Suite. Well, I think I'm gonna have to publish it on both because it, it just was that much, right? You know, back in the day, you used to have events called happenings. This was a happening. I don't even have a secret to tell you after that other than get yourself on Clubhouse, join Isabella's room, join mine too, but Isabella's is— Phenomenal. And with that, we're going to say goodbye, good night, good morning, or good afternoon, depending upon where you are and when you listen to this. And I think I'll be back on on Monday for Challenges of the C-Suite. I'm not sure, but tune in and check it out just in case. Bye now. This is CB Bowman and my dear friend, my new friend, Isabella. Thank you. Thank you.