Courage to Leap & Lead with Dr. Tony Alessandra, part 2 - Episode 145

You've got courage to leap, courage to lead.

Be brave and be bold.

Whoa, let it roar. Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast, where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courage-consulting.com. where you can find all the episodes and other excellent resources, all at courage-consulting.com. Now, here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman.

And over the years, as I started cutting back, started putting more attention onto the assessment business, Brandon, this contract employee, became more and more valuable to me. So here we are in 2023. Brandon's my CEO. He owns 50% of the business because of how incredibly impactful he is. He is an incredible CEO. He has grown as a leader. I can't tell you how our employees love him. I have learned to get out of the way because he has more impact with the employees than I do. I sometimes scare my employees. I don't know why, you know. I'm like a teddy bear. But no, sometimes, you know, I— when I send an email to an employee and say, hey, could you give me a call, they will call Brandon and say, is he going to fire me? No, no, he's not, you know. But Brandon was an incredible hire. He is a great CEO, runs the company. I really don't have to do much. The only person I really communicate with— I mean, I communicate with all the employees, but not nearly as much as I do with Brandon and my COO, which is Jared Moore. But that business has just grown so much over the last 9 years, counting COVID 2020. We've grown an average of 34% a year. Uh, it's— and I'm able to run the business in my home, on a cruise ship, uh, you know, wherever I am. As long as I have a computer and internet, I could manage my part of the business, which of course today is not as much as it used to be. I really leave so much to Brandon and Jared because they are such good managers of people. Uh, it, it just— it's incredible.

A couple of things that I want to dive into. One is you have figured out a way to turn businesses over to people, young people, to have trust, to have trust that they will— you've put your future into young people and believed that they would be able to take you to the next level. But tell me about that mindset of yours. Because it's so contrary, so very contrary to the way most people think. Most people think I need to have somebody that's older, experienced, and I can't let go. I have to hold on.

Yeah, so part of it is, is succession planning, particularly with Brandon. Brandon's 30 years younger than me, so he was— he all along, I knew, you know, as he grew, I knew he was going to be the one who took over the business if and when I ever retired. Which I—

but that you're, you're starting at the present and talking backwards, right? I want to know, back then, 20 years ago, how did you find such a great pick? How did you nurture him to be, uh, the person that took you to the next level? It's almost like You did this, one of these things, and, and the fact that you nurtured him and he moved the business up, right? That I want to know how that happens.

Yeah. And by the way, the same is true with Holly with the speaking business.

Yes. Okay.

Now with Holly, it was different. She had worked for me at the time for, um, 17 years, and she was my head of marketing. I knew she was a known quantity. That was, that was a no-brainer for me. Uh, with Brandon, uh, so he was referred to me by another speaking, uh, buddy of mine, and he only started doing some, uh, web work for me. And, and he's the one, uh, he overheard a phone call while he was at my office. I was talking to this one group in Florida that I had hired to start building the web, the assessment platform for me. And I was having issues with them. And I was, I guess, in the process of telling them that I'm not going to go any further with them. He overheard the phone call and he came up to me and he said, you know, I heard, you know, you're having an issue with this. I can build this for you. So again, it was his, you know, that positive can-do. He built this platform, and he's not the— he's not my head IT guy anymore. It's gone way beyond his capabilities of what we do programming-wise, but he manages everything. And as we You know, in the early days, I can see that he was an incredible people person. He got along with everybody. Everybody liked him. But he also was soft in the sense that people would go around me to talk to him because, you know, they're not going to get it from me. Let's see if I can get it from Brandon. But, you know, over the years I coached him, uh, you know, uh, told him certain things he should or should not do. He picked them up, you know, really quickly. He got better and better, and little by little I turned more and more over to him as I felt comfortable that I can turn things over to him. And really today I've turned everything over to him. I just kind of sit back now. He— if it's a major decision, he definitely will come to me. But most other decisions, I, I just leave it to him. He, he really knows what to do. But it really was a process of, uh, just like you are a coach, I was coaching him up to become the leader he is today. But I don't want to put it all on me. He had the capability. and the intelligence and the wherewithal and the motivation to grow. He read a lot of leadership books. He listened to many podcasts to become better at what he does. But he always had, in my opinion, the most important aspect of being a leader. He had people skills.

Tony, here's where I'm going with this question. It's going to sound weird. So my platform is about courage. And what I see in a lot of leaders today, plus employees— I mean, nothing is a one-way street— is the courage to let people grow. And I'm not sure, you know, I'm not a psychologist, what's behind that other than fear. That you lose touch, you lose control, you lose this or that. What I'm curious about is you not only identified a person, you were able to watch for the correct behaviors and relationships that that person was able to develop. But how did you have the courage to say to yourself, I don't want to do this. I want to give courage to somebody who works for me because they can bring innovation and creativity in, and I don't have to fear. My ego is not going to get in the way. How did that happen?

Well, you know, that's a— that you hit on something here, and I'm going to tell you something. And that's about the ego getting in the way. I, you know, you know, there are some speakers that speak mainly for ego. They want to be on the stage. They want to get those standing ovations. The idol— they want to be idolized by others. Uh, I will tell you that I was doing an interview for NSA, by the way, probably a month or so ago. And, uh, the interviewer, uh, was saying, you know, you've been so successful, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said, you know, I gotta tell you, uh, when, when there's talk like that, I get a little embarrassed. Uh, you know, it's not that I don't like to hear it, but, you know, hey, I come from— hey, I grew up in the projects. You know, it's not something that I seek. Uh, I'm glad to have accomplished what I've accomplished, but I didn't accomplish it for ego or anything else. I just am driven. I'm a driven person to succeed, and part of that is because of my mother. I'm just driven to succeed. Uh, and, and that's it. It's not to be idolized. You know, if that happens, all well and good. But, you know, I, I—

But Tony, you must, you must recognize the fact that there are other people out there that are driven to succeed but have not been able to succeed, right? So I'm going to get to why it is that you're able to succeed, and you do it by, um, Encouraging, recognizing, supporting, and courageous actions of your behavior to different people. I mean, we've identified Jared, we've identified Holly, Brandon. These are all major figures in your life. But let's face it, they would not be where they are now if you hadn't had the courage or the intuition or knowledge to select and to nurture and then let them fly.

Yeah, and, and, and I will clarify, uh, you mentioned they would not be as successful, you know, based on where they are now. Uh, but if that— if I didn't find them, if I didn't nurture them, if they were off on some other careers, they might, they might have still been very successful. It's just, you know, under my, my wings, so to speak. I don't have to be the center of attention. Uh, if I identify talent, I want that.

Why don't you have to be the center of I don't know.

It's just, you know, my, my daughter, one of my— I have 4 kids, so one of my daughters, uh, always, you know, fame, fortune, you know, I want to be famous. Uh, uh, you know, if I walk into a restaurant, I don't want people, even if they— let's just say I was famous, okay? really famous and walk into a restaurant where people, you know, oh, I, I, I'm uncomfortable with that. I really am. I'd rather be incognito. You know, that's that. Uh, you know, when I leave, when I leave a speech, you know, uh, and let's say that I'm, uh, the whole convention is over and everybody's leaving and I'm getting on the plane and there are some people sitting there who were in my audience saying stuff to me. You know, and there are other people on the plane that weren't even at the convention. They were just other people, you know. Who is that? Who is that person? I, I don't know. I just, uh, I don't know what to say. I just, you know, it makes me a little uncomfortable. Uh, I'm glad I've been successful. I'm glad I've accomplished what I've accomplished, but I don't have to be, you know, the person who is idolized. You know, in, in— here's an interesting thing. In my company, this is a company I started, this assessment company. All of the initial money and everything that, that's, you know, this is my idea, my money to keep this business going. But here we are today where most of my employees— I am not counting me, I have 16 employees— they idolize Brandon more than me. And so am I good with that? You know, he's the guy who runs the show. He's the guy that nurtures them just like I nurtured him. He nurtures them. So, you know, I say, hey, he earned it.

Uh, you know, I'm not gonna Tony, why did you agree to be on this show?

Um, I liked where you were going with it, you know, your whole courage mantra, uh, you know, about how to be a better leader. I don't get— I don't go on every show, you know, because I do get asked a lot, and, uh, You know, I go on some, not, not a whole bunch, but that's why. Uh, and, uh, you know, I watched a couple of your interviews and I like the way you, you interviewed, so I felt comfortable.

Thank you, thank you.

And I can tell your accent was New York, so I figured, hey, you know, you got me. Birds of a feather.

You know, I am— I keep interrupting you because you keep saying such powerful things, and I don't think you realize how powerful they are. And you're saying them in a way that's comfortable. This sounds weird. It's comfortable for people to learn from, right? Um, you're not saying it as though you should be doing this. You're saying, this is what I did, and, um, I'm comfortable in my own skin to let people, other people, have the spotlight because I recognize what they can do. And what they can do is helping me and helping others. And that's a powerful position mentally, right? And so I'm fascinated by it because I think, you know, we're all troubled. I know I go through stages where I've helped people become a step up towards their goal. And then I say to myself, hmm, is there jealousy setting in? Or will they not need me anymore? You know, those kind of things, funny things that your mind plays on you. But meantime, you're so proud that you had a part in helping them to shine. So it's kind of— it's this yin yang that goes on in the brain. And I'm so curious to know how you're able to not go through that?

Yeah, well, you know, I'll tell you, CB, I'm, I'm comfortable in my own skin. I'm comfortable with what I've accomplished. I'm comfortable with what I have. Uh, and, uh, I, I right off the top of my head could think of one speaker who, who, uh, I was his mentor, and there came a point back Maybe in the '90s, maybe the late '90s, where he actually was earning more money than me. But I was earning a lot of money. And, you know, hey, if, you know, if what I did to help him get to where he was— and he's a very gifted, gifted consultant, speaker, and may have gotten there anyway, who knows?

Yeah.

Uh, but, uh, you know, they're, they're— I just said, hey, you know, look at what I helped accomplish. But I was comfortable with where I was. Uh, could I have made more money? Could I have gotten ahead of him? You know, because I always, I always struggled with, uh, work-life balance. And even though I worked a lot, I really, really focused a lot on my personal life and my family. I would actually turn down an engagement if it missed an important baseball game of my son's. Certainly birthdays and anniversaries, graduations, I did not want to miss those. So I always, I always struggled, you know, hey, I'm not going to speak on weekends, I'm not going to, you know, whatever. There's always a battle with me. I always had a love-hate relationship, love-hate with the speaking profession. Uh, loved the opportunities, loved the people, loved my colleagues, loved giving the speeches and helping people, you know, with what I delivered. Loved audience interaction, hated travel, hated, you know, hotel after hotel after hotel. I hate this pillow. I can't sleep on this pillow. Remember what that was like? I mean, it was— it just— and all the prep work with some speeches, there was almost no prep because, you know, they were so easy. Others were so difficult and such a pain, you know, getting to, uh, to the speech, you know, prepping for it, etc. Uh, so leaving— basically leaving speaking was not, not as big a deal for me. I mean, I'm having dinner tonight, by the way, with, uh, I, I don't know if you know this speaker, Shep Hyken. You know Shep? He's a Hall of Fame speaker, uh, very, very successful. I mean, really, uh, and you'll see him at NSA when you go there this summer. But Shep Hyken, also a world-renowned magician but an incredible speaker on customer service. So he and I are having dinner tonight, and, you know, I, I listened to him. Hey, you know, uh, you know, I'm here in San Diego giving this speech, whatever. And, uh, you know, I simply say to him, and Shep, I'm sleeping in my bed tonight with my wife. Uh, you know, that, that is, that is important to me. Uh, so, you know, I look at my buddies, I'm happy that they're very successful, but you know what, because of my assessment business, uh, boy, I gotta tell you, that business— see, in a speaking business, you It's very difficult, if not impossible, to sell a speaking business because it is you. What do you sell? But my assessment business, I, I can build it up, which I have been doing, and I can actually one day sell this for a lot of money, uh, which I could not do as a speaker. So yes.

Okay, so Tony, I want to ask you, I mean, I want to ask you more about the assessment offline. But I want to ask you to focus in on what would you consider to be your major failure and how you flipped it to success?

Major failure.

And I know that's going to be hard. It's a hard question for people like you because you don't see failure as failure.

Yeah, I see it as an— I see it as a stepping stone. not a failure. But I would say one of the things that really was quite difficult in my life was getting divorced back in 1990. It was a very difficult situation. It hurt my speaking business, not that it hurt it in terms of my My internal motivation to want to go out and speak.

Your energy. Your energy.

Yeah. Uh, it, you know—

I just heard the Italian, by the way. Yeah, yeah.

It was, uh, it just, it was very, very difficult. You know, we had 2 young kids, uh, so, but, you know, I got remarried, uh, the person I'm married to now for 30 This will be 33 years. Uh, it's, uh, she's my, literally my other half. And that's really one of the reasons why I really wanted to stop all of this travel, because it got to the point where I would have anxiety having to leave and go away from her. being with her, you know, traveling all the time. So, uh, it just— I'm real happy staying home. I really am.

So beautiful. It's so romantic.

Yeah. So, you know, hey, uh, we are just such an incredible couple, incredible team. Uh, if, if you ask any of the people that know me at NSA, like Jim Cathcart or Don Hudson, or, you know, Scott McCain, uh, any of those people will tell you that my wife Sue and I are literally the 2 people who should have found each other. You know, the, the yin and the yang, the, uh, the 2 pieces of a heart that get pieced together. We're that good together. So, uh, and, and that's another reason why I, I did not want to keep going out speaking. It just, uh, it was stressful for me to be away from her. So, and, and, you know, when we had young kids—

Romantic.

She couldn't, you know, it was difficult for her to travel with me. And now that we have grandkids, you know, she doesn't want to travel. She wants to be with the grandkids. Uh, we do travel, by the way. We're going on a cruise in August. Uh, but, you know, we, we We really pick and choose those where we're together. It's not speaking, it's pleasure, it's fun. So, okay.

But now wait a second. When you went through your divorce, what, what allowed you to get through the difficult parts?

Yeah, well, first of all, friends. A lot of support from my friends, particularly Jim Cathcart. He was my closest friend, is my closest friend, and really was somebody that I could honestly talk to. And his wife, Paula, they were really, really great helps to me. So having that support group was critical. Not traveling as much and being able to sort of get things straight with my kids, you know, being home. If I were traveling a lot, I wouldn't be able to really sit down and talk to them. Obviously, you know, with California, community property. I was married 20 years, my first marriage, so, you know, big financial hit. And, uh, one of my speaking buddies' wives— or wife, not wives, wife— who was a PhD in psychology— I was complaining how much money I had to give up in this divorce. And she said to me, she said, Tony, if somebody, if a fairy godmother came down and said to you, I will take you out of an unhappy marriage. Let's just, I mean, it wasn't that bad, but it was, you know, my first marriage. We really shouldn't have been together, even though we lasted 20 years, much of it because of the kids. So she said, if, if a fairy godmother came down and said, I can take you out of this marriage and, uh, it will cost you X amount of money, which was 7 figures, by the way, and, uh, and put you in another marriage that was incredibly happy, what would you say? And I, I said, I would say let's do it, you know. And she said that, well, that's exactly what's happening. And it allowed me to let go of what I had to give up, you know, let's say financially, especially, uh, in the divorce, uh, and I, you know, I had to pay child support and alimony over 10 years, and I set it up on an automatic deduction from my account to her account, so I didn't have to think about it. And I looked at it as walking up a hill. So in 5 years, I was up on the top of the hill, and the next 5 years I was coming down the hill. And it made me more comfortable with, with everything. But being in a very, very happy marriage was really the most significant aspect of that. That, that really Got me through everything.

What do you— did you meet your new wife before you got divorced?

I did, uh, but I had met her in '74, uh, and we were friends. All of us were friends, uh, and, and there was nothing with my current wife until '90, you know. So it was, it was 16 years I knew her, but there was nothing. Friendship, but nothing more. So—

What do you consider to be— I'm trying to think about how to phrase this. Um, what do you consider to be the— your ability to leave behind behavior from your first marriage that wasn't working, that allowed you to move into your second marriage without this, uh, baggage of behavior that would not benefit the second marriage?

Part of it was maturity. Part of it was the temperament of my second wife. My first wife, uh, we had clashing temperaments. Uh, my current wife— I should say my, my final wife— we have complementary, uh, temperaments. She has an incredible temperament. Uh, in my first marriage, when my My wife would say, would ask me about something or to do something, and I would say no. Then we would get into an argument. My current wife, Sue, when she asks for something and I say no, her response has always been, no problem. Why don't you sleep on it? And if you feel the same way tomorrow, that's fine. And guess what? I would sleep on it. And the next day, I'll bet 80-plus percent of the time that no would become a yes because I let it— you know, my— a lot of my buddies say that I idle and no, you know, I basically— I'm up, no, no, no, no. Uh, my kids, no, no way. Uh, but give me a little bit of time to let it settle, to let it percolate. You know, maybe yes. And, and that happens a lot. Uh, I just need a little bit of time. I mean, I'm a high D style, dominant, driven. Uh, I typically make quick decisions, but my quick decision is typically a no, which gives me the opportunity to back up and start thinking about it, and then I come back and say yes. And, and my kids know that. My wife certainly knows it. A lot of my buddies know it now, and they joke about it, how I idle in no, still say no, uh, but, you know, they just let it pass knowing that tomorrow it's probably going to be yes.

So, um, Tony, you may have saved my marriage.

Just sleep on it. Sleep on it.

I think I'm gonna use that technique on my husband.

It really works. I gotta tell you, sometimes trying to get an immediate response from somebody on something they need to think about, and you're pushing for that answer right now, the answer is no. All right, you know, why don't you think about it? You feel the same way tomorrow, that's fine.

That is so interesting, and I hope everybody heard that one because that's gold right there. I'm the kind who always pushes for the answer. My husband is, let me think about it. Let's get it done.

Well, that's what, that's what the Ds want. They want to get it done, you know, let's move on. But you have to understand, some people need to let it percolate, need to think about it, need to sleep on it. Uh, I have— I, of my 4 children, I've got a D, I, S, and C, so it's been a great learning laboratory for me. But my C, I know That whatever I ask, it's going to take sometimes 2 or 3 days before I actually get an answer, uh, of yes or no. I've learned that. And even though my D wants an answer today, I know I'm not going to get it from the C style, the more conscientious.

Does that make you frustrated?

Well, early on it did, but But, you know, you learn. Uh, you know, my whole concept, the Platinum Rule, which I probably am most famous for, which is do unto others as they would have you do unto them— treat people the way they want and need to be treated. I know that with my C child, I just wait and back off. With my S child, I have to really walk on eggshells. Even a look, you know, the classic Italian look, like Will bring tears to her eyes. Uh, I could be much more forceful with my D child, and my I child, it doesn't matter what I do, it just rolls off of her back, you know. Um, and, you know, I learned how to deal with these 4 different styles. Being fair doesn't mean treating them all exactly the same way, because I would fail with 3 of them. Being fair means treating them appropriately to their style, which— what would make them feel heard, understood. And it's different for each child. And just in leadership and in business, uh, you know, if you have all— I remember early in my speaking career, I had my, my staff I have 3 employees, they're all I's. We had a great time. When, when my I salesperson finally left and we were moving things around in the office, I cannot tell you how many leads, you know, 3x5 cards were behind her desk. You know, it was just— it's, uh, so in my business today, I have— in my assessment business, I have all 4 styles. And, and we live those 4 styles. If you look at my, my signature in my emails, it has my style. The same with all my other employees. And so I have Ds, Is, Ss, and Cs. And although the Ds want to move quickly forward, the Cs are saying, well, wait a second, did you actually read this? You know, because I have a tendency sometimes to read the first sentence, and if the first sentence is asking something but there's more to it, I answer the first sentence. So Brandon oftentimes would say, hey, Tony, did you actually read the whole email? Well, no. He said, go back and read it. I go back and read it. I say, oh geez, I should have read the whole thing. I, I would have given a different answer, you know. So I have that tendency to leap before I look. For me, it's ready, fire, aim, right? So you need the C's to say, did you consider? Have you looked at? Have you checked on? I need the S's to tell me, how is it going to affect them personally? Is it going to hurt their feelings? Are you going to irritate our customers without doing so-and-so? You know, my I's are coming to me with these great ideas, but my S's and C's are saying, this is a good idea. Let's back up a little and look at what the ramifications are to make sure it really is a good idea. So It really is nice in leadership to have all 4 styles and to understand that what they do is not criticism or insubordination or whatever. It is, it is different spices to add to the stew, so to speak.

You know, I can talk to you all day and all month. Well, I, I know I've ran over the hour that is for publishing, but that's okay. I want to ask you a couple of more questions, and Carla will just have to figure out where to cut. How do you compare the DiSC to the MBTI?

Okay, and I get, I get asked this a lot. So MBTI has been around a long time. MBTI was Myers-Briggs, a mother and daughter. Uh, I, I look at Myers-Briggs as being more complicated because it's 16 patterns, whereas DiSC is 4 patterns. And of course, some people can say, well, you know, 16 patterns digs deeper, but DiSC actually could dig deeper because we have 15, an additional 15 patterns.

Mm-hmm.

The 4 patterns can break down to 15, but we focus mostly on the 4. MBTI, harder to remember because the 16 styles are all letter combinations, whereas DISC is a D, I, S, or C: dominance, influence, steadiness, conscientiousness. There is some comments going on. I was just at a major convention, ATD, the Association for Talent Development. It was here in San Diego. 2 weeks ago, we had a big booth, uh, and, you know, there are people coming up who were not necessarily with our assessment, not with MBTI, but with, let's say, one of our competitors, who is saying to us, did you know that MBTI is not, uh, statistically validated? Well, I'm really not sure about that. There's been a lot of talk about that. I don't know about it. I certainly don't want to tell people whether it is or it isn't. But, you know, whenever you're dealing with an assessment, you want to make sure that it is statistically validated and reliable by an outside statistical company, not internally validated, where you can fudge the numbers. And by the way, this is not anything about MBTI. I'm not saying that, that they do that, but there are companies that do. We don't use an outside company. But I, I just find, uh, DiSC being just easier, easier for people to understand, grasp, remember.

Use?

Mm-hmm.

Um, I, I asked that question because I, I remember being certified in DiSC, um, and I was grandfathered into MBTI. And, um, I was a hardcore Myers-Briggs person only because it helped me when I first heard about it. I was in corporate America. It helped me understand me better.

Right.

Because I remember saying to my coach and therapist, I said, I would say, I hate people. They just get on my nerves.

There is an interesting book. Let me see, what is the title of it? Uh, an interesting book about Myers-Briggs. Um, let me just see. It's called You know, I must have it. I must have it upstairs. Uh, but it's about Myers-Briggs.

You can send me a message about it.

And then, yeah, it's really, really an interesting background about the mother and daughter, mother and daughter, and how the mother had a real thing for Carl Jung, who wrote Psychological Types, right? And it's— it really is interesting. You gotta read this book. I'll get the title and send it to you.

So I've put my— oh, I guess I can't, but I'll give you after my email address. Yeah, I was— I want to say diagnosed. I was identified as an MBTI. And so when I said to Dr. Schwartz, ironically, I said, I hate people. He said, no, you don't hate people. You just— you're high introvert. I said, what does that mean? And little did I find out, yeah, that was a perfect description of me.

Yeah. And I am what's called an ambivert.

Oh, really?

Yeah. So an ambivert is a combination of both.

Right. In which, in which call letter are you an ambivert? In all? Wait, in I or E? Or which, which one are you an ambivert?

For MBTI?

Yeah.

No, no, I'm just saying that The D's— let's go to the DISC though. Okay, so the D's and the, uh, S's. Yeah, the D's and the S's are ambiverts.

Okay.

Some people would say that the D is an extrovert and the S is an introvert. No, they're ambiverts, whereas the C is a pure introvert and the I is a pure extrovert. Okay, so an ambivert simply means that I honestly believe deep down I am an introvert, but I have the ability when almost naturally to come across as an extrovert. All right, maybe even on this interview I'm coming across as an extrovert, but really I don't like to go to parties. You know, I just— to me, a perfect evening is just to be home with my wife. We have a glass of wine and maybe we're watching, you know, one of our favorite shows or a movie on TV.

Oh, Dr. Tony, I have to tell you, it was clear to me. But you know what? It takes one to know one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, and that's why maybe going back to early where I said, you know, getting a lot of this praise is a bit uncomfortable for me. Introverts are uncomfortable with that.

Yes, absolutely. Right.

So, but yeah, I'm definitely an ambivert. But when you see me on stage speaking, you would think, wow, he's an extrovert. But, you know, it's my stage presence, really. Yeah. You know, back in, in the early '80s, one of the great speakers of all time who's not with us anymore, uh, Bill Gove, He was the, he was the original first president of the National Speakers Association back in the early '70s. He took me aside, I believe it was like '82, and he, and he called— actually, he called me Anthony. He would— he, he said, Anthony, you know, I've seen you speak. You're coming across as professorial. Because I had just come out of being a professor for 8 years. And he said, but that— but, you know, offstage, you are funny. You're a New York City Italian. You are mischievous. You're a storyteller. And you're not allowing that to come out onstage. And that was probably the best advice I ever got in speaking.

Yeah.

Because once I said, you know what, I don't have to be you know, polished like a Nito Cobain or a Jim Cathcart. Uh, you know, I could actually be myself, and I little by little let more and more of that storytelling New York City Italian come out, and my career skyrocketed from there.

Wow.

So it, it, uh, but, but again, you know, one-on-one, I'm a bit more low-key. So anyway, so—

Yes, I heard it. I picked it up on a couple of things that you said. I said, mm-hmm. Well, Dr. Tony Alessandro, Anthony.

Anthony.

This has been such a pleasure. I can't tell you. I was very nervous about interviewing you.

If you really, really knew me, you would— I mean, you can tell who's going to be nervous with me. I'm—

Well, your name preceded your personality. So I said, oh my gosh, you know, I don't even have his email address. Your, your posse around you protected you.

And I said, they do, they do. Yeah.

How, how am I going to connect with this I've got to figure this out. And the minute you said projects, it was gold.

That was it.

It was gold. Well, audience, I hate to say goodbye because, you know, we people from the projects, we could talk. We could tell stories, right? And I suspect that you had some time in Greenwich Village in the coffee shops talking.

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. And the— and the— The, uh, the jazz, uh, venues. Yes, definitely.

Clubs. The clubs. Well, audience, I know, I know they're going to break this up into 2 parts, um, but I'm hoping Dr. Anthony will come back on because we have so much to talk about. I just love this interview. I, you know, when I get off, my cheeks are gonna hurt from smiling so much. Doctor, thank you so much for being willing to come on this show.

My pleasure.

To share that it's not all glory, but you can make it a wonderful, wonderful experience.

My pleasure. And I enjoyed myself. I think we both enjoyed ourselves on this.

Absolutely.

It wasn't a pure interview. It was Sort of a mini love fest.

Yeah, it's kind of my style of interviewing. I love doing this. Yeah. Well, audience, stay tuned for next week and for more interviews with Dr. Toni. Thank you so much for being with me today. Take care now.

Bye now.

Have courage to be out there. Bye now.