Courage to Leap & Lead with Joel Garfinkle, part2 - Episode 129

You've got courage to leap, courage to lead.

Be brave and be bold. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Let it roar.

Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast, where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courageconsulting.com where you can find all of the episodes and lots of other excellent resources. That's courageconsulting.com. Now, here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman.

You know, it's interesting we're talking about this because I just turned in the manuscript to my first book. And something said to me, and this is using technology now, and I thought about it when you just said that about emails. I said, something told me, pay for the more advanced version of Grammarly and use it. So I took each chapter, each paragraph, and I ran it through Grammarly. I was stunned at the number of times it said, write a stronger version.

No, no.

You're sounding too weak. And it would rewrite the sentence for me, my own thoughts, but write it in a more powerful way. And I sat there and I said, damn, I thought I sounded fairly powerful. But there were certain words I was inserting that led to— like, for example, if you said something like, You may be considered this. It struck out the word may, and it said, say, you will be considered, or you are considered. And I thought, I can't believe I've been doing that.

Yeah, it's so much the things we say and do where at the end of a sentence we kind of ask, put a question mark at the end of sentences when we're talking. Or we kind of come across as really, really up and then all of a sudden, well, what do you think? You know, it's like saying things that diffuse and undermine the powerful message of what you want to say. And what I'm hearing you say, and you said these words, you said write a stronger version. I would say be a stronger version of yourself.

I love that.

And how can every single person who's listening to this podcast go, okay, I'm going to write this down and put this in front of me. How can I be a stronger version of myself? And then dot, dot, dot. How would I be a stronger version of myself when I write this email? How do I be a stronger version of myself when I show up at this meeting? That's the key thing. And really, that's what executive presence is about, is how to be—

Show that book again. Show that book again because—

Well, you know, one thing I want to go over with you Yes. There we go. Yeah, I want to go over the model because when I think about being a stronger version of yourself, I have a 3x3 model that has 9 competencies. And these 9 competencies, I believe, directly impact a person's ability to be a stronger version of themselves.

Tell me.

It takes courage to have those competencies.

Tell me. So wait, wait, audience, I'm getting out my notebook. Wait, where did I put my notebook? Here it is. Okay.

Okay. So, and this is all about how you step more into your power, and really lead with conviction as a leader, as an individual, anyone who's showing up in the work environment. If you want to have a more powerful presence, you know, here's my 3x3 model, it has 9 different competencies. And the first column is gravitas. And under gravitas, I have 3 different competencies. The first one is confident. So this is about leading with assuredness that you can do it. So you're assertive, you're decisive, you're willing to take risks, you really state your opinion strongly. You believe in what you know and who you are. That's a level of confidence that's necessary for— it's a competency that's important to have a stronger executive presence. The second one under gravitas is commanding. So the whole foundation of being more commanding is you take charge, you drive towards outcomes. You're not the passive one, you're not the hesitant one, you're actually the one who's going to say, no matter my position of title or authority in the company, and sometimes I don't have that much authority, but I want to have more influence, I need to be the one who's shown as the one who's going to take charge, even if I'm not the one who is in charge. And so some of that is, you know, people, when you speak, people pay attention to you. They perceive your presence and power because of the command you have, because you're taking charge. The third one under gravitas is charismatic. So this is all about being more, having more charisma. Now I get a lot of people who say, oh, Joel, I'm not charismatic. I'm never going to be the one who's considered charismatic. Well, let me define charismatic to you. And as I do, you can break it down into its subcomponents and say, can I do more of that? So when I think of charismatic, I think of someone who radiates enthusiasm. So I'm like, okay, I take someone who's a little more introverted, less charismatic, and I say, can you bring more enthusiasm to your situations? And they're like— and I say, can you bring more energy and enthusiasm? And they're like, I can do that. I'm like, great. The minute you do that, the minute people are going to experience more of your charisma. So it's really being able to motivate, inspire others through the charisma you have. And it makes people feel— you feel more approachable because of it. So that's under the gravitas section. The second, the middle column is all about authority. So you come across as authority when you're able to be decisive, bold, and influential. So those are the 3, and let's go over each one at a time. So someone who is seen as an authority inside an organization is someone who's decisive. So that means you take initiative, you move things forward, you act with conviction, you make up your mind quickly, you don't waver, you're not hesitant. You're like, okay, I'm going to be decisive here. And so some people struggle with— they're more indecisive. And it's like, you're going to lack authority and lack an executive presence if you come across as indecisive. The second one is being bold. And this one's all about making bold decisions, taking risks, putting yourself out there, putting a stake in the ground, and really owning your position. You stand by your beliefs and convictions, and you're really like— you're willing, and you know that's key component of courageousness is you got to be willing to be bold, willing to challenge and push back. So that's the second one. The third one under authority is influential. And this is really about your, your influence is about are you able to influence another person, convince them, being compelling and forceful, but really trying to persuade a person towards a point, a point of view. And it's inciting, encourage others towards actions. So you're trying to influence people towards change. All leaders need to be more influential inside the organization, no matter what their title or position is. And then the last column is all about expression, expressing yourself fully. One of the most important things in expression is about being vocal. So, you speak up, you share your thoughts and ideas without hesitation. Too often I hear people, they go to meetings and they say to me, well, it is hard to get a word in edgewise because all these extroverts are doing all the talking. I have done research and the research says that in a meeting with 8 people, 2 people do 70% of the talking. So, it is hard to get a word in edgewise. But you, I tell people, I say every single meeting you attend, The minimum number of times you should speak is twice. And they say, twice? I say, twice. And I say— and they say, but, but, but, but, but. And I'm like, no, every single meeting you attend. And they go, why twice? I go, well, let me put it this way. If you're at that meeting and you have nothing to share, then why are you at that meeting? Every meeting you attend, you're there for a reason, and you better learn what that reason is. And you better speak up at least twice because you have something to say. And if you don't have something to say, then spend a couple minutes before that meeting preparing what you're going to say. Because your voice needs to be known, and you need to be vocal, and you need to be visible to others. And if you're not visible to others, you're going to be one of these people inside an organization that's being overlooked and underutilized and underrepresented because people don't know who you are because you're not being seen because you're not vocal. So that one's important. And then when you're vocal, you got to be insightful. That's the second one under expression. What is insightful? You're making great recommendations. You're asking excellent questions. You're sharing ideas precisely and confidently and with conviction. So you're really known for smart thinking and critical analysis. So you're not just being vocal, but you're being insightful for the things you're sharing. And then the last one under expression, besides being vocal and insightful, the third one is clarity. Now this one trips up a lot of people. You communicate, you've got to be succinct and to the point. Your message has to be clear and crisp and straightforward and direct. So the people who are long-winded get way too much into the details. Sometimes they're, they're the engineers, the scientists. Sometimes they're people who are extroverted and they're very verbal and they think out loud. They say too much and they express themselves with way too much information and they lose their audience. And so having clarity and being concise and to the point really allows your message to be powerful and for people to really hear it and allows you to stand out. So it's those 9 competencies that really I feel when we go back to kind of what we talked about before, and being able to step into your power and really stand out and have that conviction that you're the power and presence that people see you as a confident leader. These competencies are the things that people want to start to emulate and work on. And the thing that's simple about this model is you can look at the 9 competencies and quickly say, which one's my strength? Which one's my area for improvement? And then what the book lays out, which is why it's a little thicker, is all 9 competencies has a chapter dedicated to that specific one in which I break down what someone who with that competency looks like, what someone with that competency doesn't do well. There's an evaluation in it. And then there's a bunch of action steps, over 15 action steps on specifically what do you do if you lack this area? And then I go over another section that talks about what What if you're a manager, you have an employee who doesn't do this competency well? How do you help them improve this area? So to know that's kind of a resource that people can go to it and pull up that specific competency, so they're growing in that specific area can be really useful.

I love how you put together this book, you know, and I also want to add something though, that I think is really important. You could own each of these competencies. and walk into a room and never say a word and have people stop and look.

Mm.

I remember when I was younger, I was taken to lunch at some restaurant. It wasn't a restaurant. It was like a private resident— private club. And I was sitting there and there was a man that walked in. And when that guy walked in, there was not a sound. Everybody put down their utensils, turned and stared and didn't say a word until he sat down. And I said to my friend who took me out, I said, I don't understand what happened. And he said, well, you don't have to ask that question. You'll understand what happened. And I thought about it for so many years. And for some reason, that always stood front and center in my head. And I must have adopted it because years later, A couple of people said to me, CB, when you walk into a room, everything stops. Why is that? I said, I don't know. And I am aware that that happens. Now, it could be because usually I'm the only Black woman in a sea of white men, but that could be one of the reasons.

I think there are certain people have a certain spark. Certain kind of gravitas or a certain kind of something. It's hard to— I mean, I sometimes will sit there and watch people walk by and I'll be like, do they have a second presence? Do they? Just by their presence, do they have it or don't? And some people just have it. It's whatever it is, they have it. Now, I would say these 9 competencies are for the people who don't have it and they want to develop it. And that's the thing that's, that's important here because not everyone, majority of the population doesn't have that it quality. And it's something they want to develop and grow in so that they're not being held back in their career success because they're not as confident and commanding and as decisive and bold as they need to be and should be. Because the type of leader that they're being asked to be at certain points in their career, they're going to be asked to show up as a certain type of leader. And no matter what your personality is, whether you're shy or introverted, no matter what culture you're from, India and Asia, and you're taught to be humble and you're taught to acquiesce to others and to be deferential, those are— I totally respect all that. But I also think it's important to not let that get in the way of how you're showing up just because of your culture, even though I respect it and it's important and you want to honor it. You also have to be careful. Because you can then hide and be overlooked and feel disappointed that you're not fully showing up in your work environment. Your company's not taking advantage of you in an engaged way, and you're not feeling as engaged because you're holding yourself back because of what you were taught.

Yeah, the reason why I mentioned the story that I did is that I believe that all of your competencies lead to having the it power. When you take them all and you put them all in a ball, and I don't care whether you have an Asian culture of being subservient or not, you can be subservient and still walk into a room and own that room. It's all about how you walk into that room that gives you the power to be the it factor. even beyond what you say, before you say something, it's about how you walk in. If you walk into that room and you have stepped into your own power, it will radiate to the rest of the room.

And you have to be aware of like, well, what, you know, I identified certain behaviors in the book about what are the top 5 leadership behaviors that most undermine an executive presence. What, what, what are the ones that most undermine a person's leadership impact?

Joe, you have never said stronger words. There is a person who's a member of one of the groups that I belong to, and my God, all they do is sell themselves. And they think that that is bringing the group in towards them. So I would add that to your list. It's like, be careful. Once you get this ability to speak up and step into your power, that power is powerful. That's why the word power comes in. Be very careful about how you own it.

Well, I think there's an important piece here, and it's like, can you read the room? Can you understand, like, like this person you're describing doesn't know how to read the room. They're so consumed by their own self and selling that they're missing out on the opportunity to recognize what's needed in the room that I'm participating in. And, and how do I identify— and like you said, in the very beginning, your ability to really listen to others— how do I listen to others and feel what's going on in the room, what's going on individually for people, and what's needed right now?

Yeah.

And how do I meet the moment? And show up in that moment to be able to give what's needed. But I have to be able to really listen and understand what that might be. And it might be beyond what I think it is, because in the present moment, it might be something rising up that if I could really listen to it and hear it, I might meet it with exactly what's needed, versus I'm so focused on what I want to share and what I want to say, and it's all about me, that I'm consumed by that. And then people oftentimes can see through that. And you don't even see that they're seeing through it. And they're actually having a distaste for you.

Totally, totally. You know, it's funny how we don't know, we don't get how people perceive them. My husband, who's Italian, he walks in a room, he's one of these people, he's got that it factor. But I find it quite a factor because I can't figure out What gives him that it factor? I will tell you that he— men, young men just run towards him.

Mm.

Like he's the godfather. And it's— and he speak— he never speaks above a whisper. Never, ever. I think I've heard him yell once, and it was at our new puppy. And I was like, what? So I, I want people who are listening to this to understand that stepping into your power doesn't mean being the loudest person, the most talkative person.

No.

It means really understanding your power and owning it fully and knowing when to use it and how to use it.

That's awesome.

That's the summary of your book. But I'm also curious, what gives people the courage to come to you to be coached in executive presence?

You know, I feel like they recognize that they could be showing up with a stronger power and a stronger presence. And they can feel at times that they're being too timid or quiet. You know, I get a lot of people in the science, technology, and engineering fields. And they're like, I'm really good at my specialty and my competence. And I know my stuff really well. And but the— and they, they have a technical proficiency that's really strong. But they're like, they say, I lack an ability to command the room, or I don't show up with the confidence that's needed in certain situations. And so they have certain parts of their work environment where they're like, I'm comfortable in my expertise and knowledge and competency. But when it comes to showing up with a more executive presence and commanding a team, or leading with conviction, or having more charisma and really motivating the team, I'm not as strong in that and I struggle with that. And so I think, you know, people come to me because they're lacking something that they feel they could be doing more of, or they're shy and introverted and they're realizing I don't speak up enough and I need to speak up more, or I don't put a stake in the ground and really own my position as much as I could, or I don't challenge someone in a meeting because I don't like conflict. You know, these situations where— or they're censoring themselves, they censor themselves too much and they don't really trust themselves. And so then they hold back from really speaking up. And they're like, all these things are happening to me. And I don't want it to happen anymore. I want to show up and let more of myself and my spark and my ideas and my knowledge. And they're like, I get great performance reviews. People say how valuable I am and how impactful I am. But I also, I can feel like I'm being held back. I'm holding myself back. And sometimes senior leaders are pulling me aside saying, you could have even more impact in these meetings. Why aren't you speaking up more? We need to hear your voice. We know you're the expert on this certain area, but you're not voicing it. And so they're saying, I need help because I really want all that and I don't know how to do it. And I'm like, well, here's a process on how to do it. And so that's— it's valuable because it's not just me and my 2 cents of me coaching them. It's actually, here's 9 competencies, you tell me which ones you want to work on and when we can work on them. So in many ways, it's like, oh, here's kind of the hidden secrets of what I need to do that I didn't know is needed because no one told me. And throughout my career, I haven't really— you know, what got me here is not going to be what's going to get me there. What's gotten me here has really worked well. And now I'm at the point where my next step in my success at this level of impact that I want to have as a leader, other leaders are telling me, you're missing some, some certain pieces. And we need to see more of you. And you need to have more influence, and you need to have more impact. And you need to show up and provide more value. And so making your voice and your ideas heard, and making sure people really know who you are, all of that is something they really want. And so they come to me with the courage of saying, I need that, and I don't know how to do it.

I want to get deeper, though, and we only have a few more minutes.

Okay.

You're talking about people who have been told, for the most part, and that telling has triggered that they need support. I want to get to what are the questions Let's say top three questions. Somebody can ask themselves to say, and they haven't been told. They can ask themselves and say, "I need to get in touch with Joel." What are they feeling inside? What's the trigger? What's the emotional trigger that's making them realize they need you, Joel?

I— the question they'd ask themselves is something around— and oftentimes they feel like, I have something to share, and I have something to say, and I have something to add. And I hold myself back from sharing it. I hold myself back from speaking it outwardly in all situations or many situations. And the more senior the leader, the more impactful the meeting, the more intimidated I might feel, the more I hold myself back from speaking. And so there's a part of themselves inside where they say, I know, I know, in my mind, I have something to share. And I'm not sharing it.

And what does intimidated look like? What does it feel like? What does it sound like?

Intimidated looks like, feels like, sounds like is a little Chihuahua looking up at a Great Dane, feeling like I feel intimidated because that person has power over me. and they could impact my career. I could say something wrong. I could do something wrong. They could— whether it's not necessarily true, but it feels real for people, is they feel intimidated because they end up giving their power away to someone else in a position of power and think that person has, and they do, a lot of power and title and a position. And like, I had a senior director who was going to meet with an SVP. And he said to me, I'm intimidated by this person. Their personality is someone who's really direct and they're to the point and they don't mess around and they have a lot of influence in the company. And so I'm scared what they're going to think of me. I'm scared of how to show up and I feel intimidated by their presence. And so I'm like, and I say to them, do you see how much power you're giving away to them? Let's go back and think about what is— why are you meeting with them? And he's like, well, I have a certain expertise. There's a project I'm running. I know the project. I know everything that's happening. I'm like, exactly. You have a certain expertise, you have a certain knowledge, you take that, you own that, you don't get intimidated by them. And you share what you know, so that they can hear what you have to say so that the right decision can be made. But you have to show up with that power and presence and not be tentative and hesitant. Because if you're tentative and hesitant, they're going to feel the tentative hesitancy. And they're going to feel like, well, this person doesn't really know what they're talking about. I don't really— I can't really feel their confidence and their strength. And so it's important that you're showing up with that and not feeling intimidated. You're taking them off of their pedestal and you're making them more human. And you're realizing they were once at my level at one point in their career. And I can't just because of their prestige or their image or their title make them bigger than what they are, because all it does is it puts my— makes me feel more powerless. So trying to really temper and dampen the amount of projection you're having onto them on how great they are. You're making them greater than what they are. And it's better to kind of diffuse that so that you can feel calmer going into a situation where intimidation can, can occur.

I think also, if you walk away from a meeting, and you say to yourself, I should have, I could have, That's a sign you need Joe.

Yeah, that's, that's well said. Thank you for summarizing that. Yeah. And recognizing that you're feeling not as confident in your work environment.

If you walk into your work environment and you, your stomach starts to turn, you need Joe.

Yeah.

Because these are real feelings there. It's the universe telling you, you have an opportunity here. You have an opportunity to not feel those feelings. You have an opportunity to feel when you leave a meeting, I did well.

And I think it's, it's really about stepping into their power. Because if they feel like they're not stepping into their power, if they feel indecisive, tentative, hesitant, unsure, lacking confidence, scared to take risks and be bold, indecisive with decision-making. All of that comes down to, well, how do I lean into my power so that I am decisive, bold, confident, commanding, and having more conviction behind my ideas? Because other people can feel it when we lack it. And people don't want to feel that way. People don't want to feel intimidated or hesitant or unsure about themselves. And oftentimes they go into situations and they feel that way, and then they show up and other people experience them as, well, you're not really behind this idea because you're lacking some confidence here.

Yeah.

And so I think having that be something that people can really trigger people.

I also think that one of the things that we don't pay attention to is what is our communication behavior. That's, that's a loaded statement because it's not just about communication. It's about the behavior you're displaying while you're communicating.

Right.

I've been in a meeting with another group and there's one woman who I had no idea that she was as smart as she is. The reason She laughed every time she made a statement. She giggled. And it wasn't until a year later when I was looking at the work she was doing, I thought, there's a disconnect here. Why? The giggling almost says, I'm not good. And then when you're in solace and you're producing, you're producing good. So I think that the behavior that's connected with the communication is an important element.

That's beautiful. I love that. Because I think about the behavior, I think of examples clients have shared with me where they'll decide to sit in the back of the room instead of the front of the room. They'll sit in a chair. And the first thing that this woman said to me years ago, she sits in the chair, and the first thing she does, she takes her right hand, and she, she makes the chair smaller. And so she feels smaller. And she didn't even realize she was doing it until we were in this workshop that I was leading. And she was like, oh my God, I didn't realize I'm undermining my own confidence by doing that. Or you slouch in your chair, or you're the last to speak in a meeting. Instead of—

Or the person that's when they're talking, they're going like this. Right.

Or you have a really quiet voice. And people can't really hear you.

Yeah. Or swallow the end of your sentences.

Right. There's so many behaviors we're doing. And I think for all your audience listening to this, it's like, ask yourself, what behaviors am I displaying that might be undermining my sense of confidence or power? Because there's things you're doing that might be subtly causing you to feel a little powerlessness. And other people can pick up on it, and that's not how you want to be perceived.

Gosh, this has been such a great conversation. I don't get why Barbara put us together.

Yes, yes.

What a smart friend we have.

Yes, it's been very enriching. She's wonderful, and she really intuitively had a sense of of the connection, and it definitely was here.

She did.

Yeah.

Barbara, thank you. When you listen to this, thank you. You were right.

Yes, you were.

Joel, thank you so much. Please show your book again.

Of course.

I think that every woman needs to have a copy of this book. It's, it's power personified. Yes. And with that, thank you.

You're welcome, CB. It's been a pleasure. And I hope, I hope we make a difference in people's lives, but by listening and being able to take some wisdom that we shared today that hopefully makes a difference in someone's life.

And I will change that sentence to say, this has and will continue to make a difference in the lives of a lot of women. Thank you.

Yes, it will. You're welcome.

See you all next week. Bye now.