Courage to Leap & Lead with Michelle Tillis Lederman - Episode 156

You've got courage to leap, courage to lead. Be brave and be bold. Whoa, let it roar. Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast, where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courage-consulting.com. where you can find all the episodes and other excellent resources, all at courage-consulting.com. Now, here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman. You've got courage to lead.

Courage to lead.

Be brave and be bold. Whoa, let it roar. Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courage-consulting.com where you can find all the episodes and other excellent resources, all at courage-consulting.com. Now, here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman.

Hello, everybody. It's Tuesday and it's CB Bowman on Courage to Leap and Lead. And you'll notice today I'm wearing a color that I normally don't wear, but I think I'm rocking it. This sort of lavender violet purple. I'm super excited about it. I saw it in the store and I thought, okay, you don't have that color in your wardrobe. Because I have a basement full of clothes, but that doesn't matter. You know how it is. At any rate, I'm excited to let you know that my book, as you see in back of me, Courage to Leap and Lead, it's gonna drop January 16th, and you are all invited to come to the book launch on Zoom at 10 o'clock in the morning Mountain Time. So I wanna see you there. Okay, Michelle. Oh, this might air after. Oh well, you can still buy the book. So we have a prolific author on today, and I am really anxious to know how she got from being a baby to writing, what, 6 books at least? I— 4 of them is showing in the background. It took me a year to write mine, so I don't— I need to know the secrets to this.

A year is pretty fast.

Oh, okay. Michelle, welcome.

Thanks for having me on, CB.

So I want to know, first of all, did you start writing as a child?

Not this kind of writing, but I always loved poetry, to be honest. And the funny thing is, my younger son also has always been a poet. You know, he's written things usually for school assignments, but they've been so beautiful. And I recently pulled out poetry books from my 8th grade teacher. And so, yes, I always loved the power of words.

So we'll have to have you write a book with just your poems in it.

Oh, I did that actually. That was my final project. my undergraduate degree because I was actually a writing minor. I was a writing communications minor. And so I wrote a poetry book and I gave, you know, I bound it and I gave copies to some very special people in my life.

Okay. Well, I want to be one of those special people. So dig it out. Because I love writing poetry. And in my new book, I don't remember the page it is, there's a poem that I've written And I think you'd love it.

So I'm sure I would. And by the way, you are rocking that color purple.

Thank you. So, okay, let's go back. Why did you want to be on this show? The show is about how people have overcome failure and turned it into success. And from all the books you've written, you look like you were successful from day one.

You know, I love and hate the word failure. I can't tell you how many times people say, tell me your greatest failure. I remember once a woman who was starting a company interviewed me, asking me to like join her network. And she asked me if I ever had a plan B. And it was all about like expecting to fail. And I really have always struggled with that because I don't view things as failure. I just— it's not really in my frame of how I look at things. Have I made mistakes? Of course. Have I not, you know, always done things as good as they could be? Of course. But I don't view that as failure. I view that as learning.

I like that. I like that perspective. And it is the perspective that I take in my book. that we really need to look at failure as a university of life, right? And you can't pay for that kind of education. So embrace it and use it.

That is perfect. I love that, the university of life. You know, you say, how did I get from a baby to here? Well, it was not direct, right? It was a little circuitous. And my undergraduate degree was in accounting. I'm an accountant. I am a CPA in 2 states, and I spent 10 years in finance. So, you know, was that a mistake? Did I fail? No. Oh my God, I learned and had a foundation, and I now have stories and credibility to teach leadership because I was supervising people when I was 22 years old. Wow.

Wow. And then having your own business, you can keep it rocking in terms of A successful return on investment. Well, I'm jealous. I'm jealous.

I can do my own book, but I don't want to.

Yeah. I mean, numbers and I do not— we're not friends.

And I am photographic for numbers. It was like one of those weird— you know how we have these weird special skills? I can't remember somebody's name for the life of me, but I can remember their telephone number.

That's absolutely disgusting.

My husband agrees with you.

Okay, so tell me about your parents. Were they writers or numbers people?

Um, my dad was not a good student, never went to college. Actually, I'm the first person in my immediate family to graduate from college.

Congratulations.

Thank you. Um, so my dad—

Your brothers and sisters? Your brothers and sisters?

My, my sister never finished college. She's also an entrepreneur. My father was an entrepreneur, and my mother finished college a few years after I did. She's in her 50s. I love it.

Kudos to her.

Yeah, I was so proud of her.

What did she—

She always said, I have more credits than God and no degree, um, because she just kept going to school, but nothing ever got her the degree. Um, we don't even know what her degree ended up in. We were just so proud that she graduated. But, you know, where my dad was an entrepreneur in real estate, my mom— and my mom worked in real estate with my dad until they, um, split. Um, but my mom was really, um, somebody who was of service. She is, um, she's my heart. Like, she, um, she went from real estate to, um, being a legal secretary in the judicial system. And for 10 years, she worked for Judge Brown, a female judge, female African American judge. And, you know, honored to serve in that office as a legal secretary for 10 years in the North County Courthouse system. And after that, she moved into the Office of Welfare and Food. Like, so she was— she stayed within the court system, but moved to advocacy. And serving clients. And we used to be like in the Livingston Mall, and people would be, Miss Margo, Miss Margo, let me tell you how things are going. And then my mom would somehow disappear, and these people would be saying, you know, I gotta tell you how much your mom helped us. And then my mom would come back with Burger King for her— the whole family.

Whoa.

My mom had no money, right? My mom Did not have money to spend on things, but she's like, they need it more than me.

She is a beautiful woman.

She is and was. I lost her in '21.

I'm so sorry. You lost her. The world lost her.

The world lost her. You know, I literally just wrote a blog around legacy and what lives beyond us. And this comes out of Scott and Jacqueline's book and Marshall's book of Becoming Coachable. Where they said the only thing that lives past you are your relationships.

Yeah.

So my mom is still alive and kicking in the relationship she has with me.

Absolutely. And you could tell in you, you're a fiery woman. Holy Toledo.

Got it all from Margo.

That's a good thing. You know, it's interesting how Our new technology has allowed people to reach out to us that we have long gone from our memory. We might remember the effects that we had on people, but not the actual story. I received, I think it was in Facebook, a note from a woman Telling me how much she appreciated the help that I gave her and the attention that I gave her. And Michelle, this must have been like 40 years ago. And I, I don't remember her or the situation, but she described it so beautifully. And I thought— I felt so good inside. You know, I generally feel good about how I interact with people. When I'm not being an a-hole. But this just reminds— yeah, I can get there. But this just reminded me of positive impact that I've had on people. I'm so grateful to her for that. And so I know your mom is just beaming about you and what you've accomplished.

Oh, she did that alive. I'm sure she's up there telling everybody she loved Brad. I appreciate this, or, you know, whatever it was that says, like, I got so much out of something that I did, I put them right in that folder just to remind me that, that it matters and I have an impact.

That is an amazing, amazing idea. I'm going to start to do that. Thank you so much for sharing that, because in those times where we really need a boost, there's nothing like remembering that you Made a difference. You know, we all say we make it— we want to make a difference, but how does that interpret in your life?

I believe that, um, you know, being in the MG100 community with you, as you know, can be a little intimidating, a little overwhelming.

A little?

A little? I'm under— I'm under-exaggerating. Like, clearly, like, even you— like, you— I mean, everyone— like, it's like The things that you guys have done and the broad reach that you've had, and like, it's kind of like, how did I get here? How am I so lucky to be in this room? And I know I'm not the only one who feels that way, but I had to kind of recognize that maybe my impact isn't as big and loud and and well known as everyone else's, but my impact is one person at a time, and. And, and I know that even though there might only be 286 emails of people who actually told me I had impact, I know that there's many people that didn't tell me. And so for me, legacy and impact is one person at a time.

Well, it's, it's kind of like the starfish story that I don't know if you know.

Everyone knows the starfish story.

Starfish story. And, you know, it's a ripple effect, right? So, you know, I— people who write me who say, for example, oh, I didn't get any business from being on LinkedIn. And so my question to them is, how's your business going? Oh, it's going great. Can you trace how the people who you're working with found you? Go way back, and there is some connection to LinkedIn. If you're on LinkedIn, it's a ripple effect. You can't— you know, I learned this when I was with General Foods in marketing. You cannot claim return on investments as a solo event, because there's so much that goes into that perspective, right? It's, uh, and I, I, I cringe when I hear coaches say, well, I've measured my return on investment with my client, and this is how you do it. I go, um, so maybe you wanna take a course in marketing, a basic course in marketing. And understand that you cannot solo this and say it's all because of you.

Oh my God. So it's like you know me because, um, my work is all about relationships and understanding. So my last book, The Connector's Advantage, the concept is basically whatever it is you're working on or working towards, you're going to get there faster, easier, and better through your connections, through your relationships. And as you just said, you can't account something to solely one thing and certainly not solely to yourself. I can trace almost every success I've ever had to a relationship, to a connection, to a person, whether it was in the background or the forefront that helped make that happen. And, you know, being part of the MG100 community and everything that's come out of that. You know, how I heard about it, how I got connected to Marshall, who nominated me. There's so many people to thank in the success of your life and to understand that it isn't ROI, it is just relationship.

Yeah, yeah. Relationship on investment. We've redefined it.

Relationship on investment. I have to think about that one. Because I, you know, yes, we invest in our relationships, and, and we get a return on those relationships. But I don't even think of it that way. Because I just, I feel like it's organic. And it doesn't have to be so strategic and so tactical. That when you have the mindset of a connector, when you embody those those beliefs and put relationships first and, and seek to have a giving spirit and come from a place of abundance and trust and have a clear vision. And these are some of the mindsets I talk about. The rest just unfolds.

You know, you have a good point because there are connectors and there are connectors. There are connectors that expect immediate Return. And then there are connectors that do it because— and they're really careful about how they do it. And I like to think of myself as in this category of thinking about the need of each person and putting that need together so that it becomes a successful outcome for both. It's like a flower that opens, right? And both of you are part of that STEM. And I think that that's— that makes a major difference. And you know, I have— and so this is, this is gonna take us down a different journey. But I must say, I object to people who introduce me to people of my color because they think that's the only person they can introduce me to. Introduce me to the world. Don't select just because we're the same color, we're the same religion, we're the same race, whatever. Look beyond that and figure out what the person needs and make sincere introductions. I just got a, a request from a member of MC100. one of the big members. By big, I mean he walks tall, and he is tall. And he introduced me to a CEO who now wants— an ex-military guy who wants to become an executive coach. And I actually had to laugh at the introduction because it sounded just like him. And I thought to myself, now this is a great introduction. He laid out my background. He laid out the person's background, and he told me why.

There you go.

And how I can make a difference. People that just say to me in an email, I think you 2 should meet, call. That, that's— what does that, what does that do? So I think this person is Jewish, and so you could Celebrate Hanukkah together. I mean, come on.

I think there's— so when I talk about having a generous spirit, one of the mindsets of a connector, and people often feel like I have nothing to offer, I have nothing to give, and I give a laundry list of all the ways. And my favorite 3 are information, introductions, invitations, right? So you're focused on one of the 3 I's, introductions. And there's a right and wrong way to make an introduction. And the first is to understand, is it mutually beneficial or is it singularly beneficial? Yeah, if it's single. So yesterday I made an introduction, um, or actually I didn't make it yet. I emailed the, the person and said, you know, are you open to this introduction? Here is who I want to introduce you to. Here's her LinkedIn profile.

Here's what she does. I like that step.

So, you know, if it's mutually beneficial, I will make the introduction without permission. And I will say, here's this person, here's why I think you might be interested, here's a link to their LinkedIn profile. Here's this person. Here's a little background, and here's why I think you know you might be interested. Here's links to their profile. Connect away, and that's that's my intro. But when in this case it was I think you could learn from this person. She's done what you want to do, and I think you would get some value from speaking to her. I went to her and I said, "Would you be open to speaking with this person?" This is what she tried to do. This is what she's trying to do. I think you might be able to. you know, don her with some golden nuggets. And, and I let the person know, I said, I will ask permission to make that intro. Until I have permission to make that intro, I will not make it. Because then I'm burdening that person.

Yeah, I like that strategy a lot. Thank you for sharing. Yeah, I never thought about breaking it down that far. But that is fantastic.

And then So when I talk about the law of familiarity, right, you want to stay in somebody's mind without getting in their face. This is how we build relationships and, and how we get rooted in a deeper connection is by, you know, increased presence in somebody's life, whether it's just popping up in an email or having somebody say, oh, Michelle says hi, right? We don't have to make these things big, but we want to have repeated recognition of our Our presence in their lives. When you make an introduction, you are present every time they talk. Um, and there's a power in that, right? And, and so you then have opportunities to reach back out to those people. Did you guys connect? How did the call go? You have ways to extend your own connection to 2 parties by bringing these 2 parties together.

I love this. Is this in your book?

Yes. So this is a combination. So The 11 Laws of Likability was my first book. And when we talk about the law of familiarity or things like that, that's coming out of this book. This book is entirely summarized in chapter 2 of this book because I build on it. So, you know, to save somebody from having to read one versus two, I give you all the foundational concepts of the likability book in The Connector's Advantage so that you can build off those concepts and move from I'll explain the story because I'm laughing because I'm remembering my, my brother-in-law coming into my office as I'm working on The Connector's Advantage. He goes, oh, another networking book. And I'm like, no, this one's about being a connector. And he's like, what's the difference? Oh my God. And I looked at him and I'm like, that's a really good question. And I had to think about it for a moment. And in 30 seconds, I just looked and I said, networking is something you do. A connector is who you are. And that became the last line of the book.

I like that a lot. What does he do?

My brother-in-law? He's an entrepreneur with my sister. She hired—

a whole family of entrepreneurs.

We are. She hired him and married him.

Now that's connection.

They were dating before she hired him, so it was okay. But, you know, when we think about, um, the, the difference between doing something like, I'm going out there to meet people, I'm going out there because I need this, or get a job, or versus this is who I— this is what I believe, this is my mindset, this is how I present myself to the world, I prioritize relationships, I focus, I, I It's non-strategic. It is coming from my core. And, you know, I have an awareness of these, these elements, you know, that enable me to rise on the connector spectrum. Because as you said, there's connectors and there's connectors. Well, I actually define 7 levels of connector.

I love this.

In your show notes, I've sent you a link to a quiz, a 3-minute quiz they could take to see where they fall on that spectrum.

Okay. All right, everybody. Hey, now I know you don't like the word failure, but that is a topic of this show.

Yep.

So let me see if I can rephrase it. Tell us about 2 situations where you experienced the university of life. I'm a quick study.

Yeah, I love it. You, you, that was really well phrased.

Thank you.

Gosh, you know, the first one comes with my first book. The, the, the first draft was not the final draft. Let's just say that the feedback that I received on the first book, even from my friendly readers, Um, sometimes was really hard to hear.

Yeah.

Um, so, you know, I was using a lot of personal examples. Like, I would say things like, oh, she was another short, uh, Jewish curly-haired girl. And the one of the women who read the book, she's like, you reference being Jewish so many times, I almost, if I didn't know you, would feel like you only wanted to be friends with Jewish people. I was like, Whoa! Like, that, that was like, oh wow. Like, yeah.

And that's something you would see yourself.

No.

Um, you know, and so, um, persevering in the, in the wake of 17 pages of feedback from the publisher and the possibility of them almost dropping the book. To taking the feedback in, hiring an editor to help me parse the feedback and explain to her what I was trying to communicate, and going from we might drop you to you've been selected as the second lead book and we are putting money behind your promotion and you're getting a print Wow.

Wow.

Yeah.

How did you— I don't know if you remember this, but how did you take that feedback in a way that you weren't crushed?

Oh, I was crushed.

Oh, okay. Second question.

But I can still answer that question.

How do you manage being crushed? Step by step. Okay, go.

Um, okay, so I'm gonna tell you another story because I love stories.

Yes.

Um, I believe there is a lot of similarity in management of others and self and motherhood. And so when I think about when my kids are struggling with something when they were young, I had a little kitchen timer and it was a duck. And when the duck timer went off, it would quack. And when my kids were struggling with something, I'd be like, is this a— is this a 5-minute struggle? Or is this like a 13-minute struggle? Like, you know, how, how much time do we need to like release all of this angst? And they would come up with a number. I'm like, oh, 7 minutes. Okay, got it. Let's put the duck on. And we put the duck on. I'm like, let it out. You can scream, you can hit, you can punch the pillow, you can let it all out. I'm like, but when the duck quacks, we're going to regroup and move on.

This is amazing. Okay, go.

I use the same technique on myself.

No way.

So I said, okay, I'm going to give you a few days, Michelle. Like, that's 17 pages. I gotta tell you, I probably struggled for a week or two, you know, like letting myself wallow in it, letting myself, you know, process and parse, starting to share it to start to move myself through it. But I basically said, at one month, you got to cut yourself off, Michelle, and you need to get your acting gear. And, you know, the duck quacked.

I have to write down something you just said. First of all, you put the timer on. Mm-hmm. And then you said, allow yourself time, time to move through it.

Yeah. We need, we need processing time. We need feeling time, right? So the initial, the immediate, like the, the timer, the first timer is just, wow, right? This is, this, you know, this is terrible. Like letting, releasing all the emotion because you can't work through it until you release some of it in a A safe way, right? Then it's processing and parsing. Like, okay, 17 pages wasn't all bad feedback. Maybe only 8 and a half pages were bad feedback, and 8 and a half pages were like, hey, I liked this part, and let me look at this again, and let me— like, hey, you know what, I agreed with that comment, and, you know, my proposal writer suggested this, and I don't know why I listened to him, and, and like, and that was a good You know, and so you just start to like break it down. And then it's like, okay, I'm done with that. Now let's act. Now let's get my show on the road. Stop. There's— we're done with that. Now it's time for action. And so it's almost like the stages of grief in a way, right? Like we have to go through stages. And when we hit a hurdle, part of emotional intelligence is understanding how to be resilient and act in the face of an obstacle. If we don't allow ourselves some of that process time, some of that emotional release, those actions might not be as well taken.

Okay, so taking my notes here, and I love the reference to Kübler-Ross. Um, how do you know how much time to allow For this grieving period?

It's a decision, and I think it's one that you set for yourself. So for example, my publisher gave me 60 days to turn around the notes. 60 days at a time when I was working for a client 2 to 3 days a week running programs, you know, so I didn't have the time. And then it was coming to year-end, and so I didn't have a huge amount of time. I had to move through it rather quickly, but I also realized I needed to ask for more time. And so I think it's a matter of what's the situation and, and what are the external timing pressures that will influence and dictate how much time you can give yourself. I was able to negotiate for 90 days instead of 60. And the truth is, I did not start working on them until 30 days in. Because initially I took time to process and then I said, okay, what's my strategy? Then I had to hire the editor and then I got started. But there was actions leading up to it. But it, you know, I didn't really start touching the work of the book for a full month.

When you say process, what does that mean versus strategy for you? How did I use it?

I don't remember what I said.

So you had to allow time for process to take place, and then the strategy developed from it. So when you're thinking about process while you're in grief, how do you develop a process? In other words, process, we all know, is a way of solving problems. Okay, so But when you're in grief, we all know that you're blinded by the grief. So how do you put— how do you marriage the two to get to strategy?

Thank you for adding the context, because I think when I talked about process, I was really talking about processing.

Okay.

So the process part is processing the information that was coming in. It was parsing and processing and taking it in and breaking it down and deconstructing and reconstructing all of the information. So to me, it was a, it was a processing that would enable me to move to strategy, which is action, the plan and the action.

And, and how did you figure out the time you should allow for each segment? I mean, I know that you, you went from 30 to 90 days, but did you say at day 5, this is going to happen, at day 6, this is going to happen? Is— did you break it down that finite?

No. Um, initially, when it comes to the emotional release, yes, I, I cap it. That's the duck quacking. That's— you get this much time, and then you need to get your big girl pants on, you know? Like, I'm— you can have your pity party, but you only get this much time, and that's usually a short period of time. I mean, this was like so big for me. I mean, I dreamed about writing a book for 10 years before I actually took the leap.

No way.

Oh yeah. I mean, I had like 5 different outlines when I finally decided to do this, and I'm like, which one should I write first? You know? Um, and I went to my husband and I, I, I don't know if I actually said the words, but I think I did say something like, can I quit? Can I give up?

Wow.

Like, yeah, I'm like, you know, the publisher is gonna let me out. They're, they're okay with it, you know. They might not even make me pay back the advance, like, you know. And he, and he looked at me, he goes, you don't need my permission, you need your permission. Well, I don't think— he's like, you don't have it. He's like, I don't think you can. I've never seen you quit on anything, and I don't I don't think you are able to do it.

Damn. And that's a husband. Drop the mic.

Whoa. That's why I still have that husband.

Whoa, whoa. Okay, ladies, now you have a reference point for selecting a husband.

I mean, he knew me so well.

Yeah.

To say, like, you know, he's like, I can give you permission. He's like, it's fine with me, but I don't think it's going to be okay with you. And for him to hold that mirror up to the person that he knows, for me to have to see that, is what moved me from, okay, now I need to start to figure this out because he's right.

So, Michelle, do you recommend that everybody has somebody in their life like your husband that holds them accountable?

Absolutely. And not just one person. I mean, my whole work is about the value of relationships and the relationships that we want and need in our lives and how to create them and nurture them and sustain them and, you know, leverage them and, and add value to that. Like, I mean, it's all about these relationships. I've had a buddy coach for over a dozen years, the same woman that I met— oh God, 2008 maybe. We were trying— we were both speaking at the Columbia Women in Business Conference, and we couldn't figure out how to get into the building in February in the snow. And she was wearing purple suede shoes, and I was like, I love her already. I'm like, purple suede shoes in the snow, we're going to be friends.

Yeah.

By noon that day, we were like BFFs cracking up about the fact that 2 brilliant women who were speaking couldn't get into the building.

Mm-hmm.

We have buddy coached each other since without pause. We do our goals together every year. Um, you know, I've helped her through getting— leaving her husband. I mean, it's not just work. It's a sounding board and somebody's perspective that you're willing to listen to and that you respect and that you can also be valuable for. That's a relationship that is worth finding and keeping. And you know what? She's not the only one I have like that. I have ones that I maybe talk to once a month, or ones that maybe I'm more in the mentor role. And ones where I'm more in the mentee role. And, you know, you can only have so many and you can only nurture so many at a time, but there's some that will remain. But looking for those opportunities, because no, he wasn't the only one. I went to my buddy coach with the book. You know, actually, she was probably the one I was most nervous about reading it because I'm like, how's she going to tell me if she doesn't like it? That'll be so hard for her. And when she told me she loved it, I didn't believe her, right? Because I was, you know, I think I was just bracing myself. And I'm just like, are you just saying that? And she's like, Michelle, I'm upset that I didn't write it myself. And I was like, you like it?

You know, Michelle, I have to tell you, when I first met you, I had my doubts about you. We didn't get off on a good footing.

We didn't? I don't remember that.

Oh, I remember. I remember.

I don't feel that way about you.

Well, I, I'm a little wacky. And, um, but I also will tell you, I am so glad that we did this interview because I see now a whole different you than what I had conjured up in my head. You got me so curious.

Huh?

You got me so curious.

Oh, it was regarding the Connect Group when you couldn't make up your mind which Connect Group you wanted to be in, and I was leading one of them, and I said, who is this shithead who doesn't want to be in my group, right? And so I took it personally, and I thought— and now it's like I see a different you. I see a person who knows what she wants, but is very— not but, and is very sensitive to relationship building. And that's an interesting perspective that I'm seeing you in now. Because I think, wait, did I judge wrong? Should I not have been judging? Should I have not taken it personally? What, what happened? So it gives me an opportunity to sit and analyze myself and how I react to people.

Thank you so much for sharing this, because one, I had no idea that you felt that way. So my first is to apologize and own for making you feel anything less than. I don't really remember any of it. To be honest with you, I think it was probably a scheduling thing, and I was trying to figure out which time I could get into or something like that. And, and I don't think I knew any of the people in either group, so there was no reflection on that. It was literally a calendaring thing, and I don't really remember it. So one, apologies for not recognizing that it had an impact on you. Second, thank you. Thank you, one, for sharing it with me, but thank you for staying open to allowing me to change a bad first impression and make a better one, because not a lot of people do that. They make up their mind, and then they seek to prove themselves right and take in all information through that lens. And so I really appreciate the opportunity and your openness in allowing me to provide you more information, to give you a broader perspective of who I am, because I am not the person that would ever want to make anybody feel less than.

Well, that came across absolutely crystal clear today. And so I want to thank you for allowing me to realize that don't judge so quickly. Get, get to know the person. And, you know, my husband says to me all the time, because I get so angry with him, he says, you're too sensitive. Allow to sit with things and try to look at it from a different perspective. And so this is a first-class example of I need to listen to my husband.

Um, yeah, like, I love this. You know, I don't love it, but I love this. Like, I don't love that I made this terrible impression. Um, but in— you basically are exemplifying one of the first mindsets of a connector, which is open and accepting. And when I also talk about being open, I talk about not just being open to other people, but open to ourselves and open to being wrong. And, and we need to slow our thinking down. And I talk about staying in a place of curiosity versus conclusion. And—

Love that.

You inviting me on this show, you know, when you had this impression of me, um, proves one, your openness, and two, your curiosity. Um, what don't I know about this person, right? How else could I interpret what the behavior was? What, you know, what if I'm wrong? What's the impact of me being wrong in my conclusion? And the 4th question I put in the book that I give people to help slow our thinking down is, am I trying to be right?

Interesting.

So not that we have to ask ourselves all 4 of these questions every time we were trying to stay in curiosity versus conclusion, but any of these questions will slow us down and say, hold on, let's just stay, let's just stay in curiosity a little longer. Let me just get more data before I really form a full conclusion.

Well, the first clue that I had was when I ran into you at the National Speakers Association. I said, wow, she's very warm and engaging. Hmm. And I just let that sit. And then I said, well, okay, let's go. What are you going to do with that sitting there thinking? And I said, well, I gotta have her on the show. Let's go to the next step. And so I'm so glad you accepted.

I, I'm so glad you shared your experience with me, um, because it's eye-opening. We can only learn from having that information.

Yeah.

And so I need to be aware of, you know, when I'm stuck in my head trying to do some— like, if you see my calendar, it's, it's, it's ugly, right? And I'm, I'm like, didn't even occur to me that it could be taken personally, right? Um, so, so it's really for everyone out there listening, we assume a lot about why somebody is behaving in a certain way. And we are all sensitive humans, and we all have that inner voice and that inner insecurity and all of that that makes us question all of it. Yeah, sharing it kind of makes it all go away.

I love it. Hey, I know that you have a meeting, and I wish we could spend more time together.

But I hope we do spend some more time together.

Absolutely.

But now that I've got a new fresh slate, we will.

I'll call on you to help me with my book launch.

I'll be right there for you.

Thank you. Thank you. I just want everybody— this book is amazing. The Connector's Advantage. It even sounds like, you know, You are going to win at connecting people. And I love that concept versus the drudgery of, oh my God, I got— especially for introverts. Oh, see, here's my little princess here carrying on. Paris, she thinks we're under siege because the garbage man.

Oh, I understand. Mine protects our garbage at all costs.

Um, but, um, I'm just so glad that we've had this time together. And everybody out there realize that connecting is about how you use your heart with other people.

I love that.

Michelle, thank you. Thank you for holding the space for me. I am so glad to get to know you.

Likewise, I'm, I'm, I'm, I feel, um, I feel a closeness to you that I didn't feel before, um, and I think it's because you, you shared and, and now we can clear it. And so, um, thanks for that second chance.

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, please think about people that you've said no to it in your life emotionally, and see if there's any wiggle room in there. This is CB Bowman, Courage to Leap and Lead, with my special guest Michelle. I'll see you on Tuesday, next Tuesday. Bye now.