Courage to Leap & Lead with Sharon Melnick, Ph.D. , Episode 132 | part 2

You've got courage to leap, courage to lead. Be brave and be bold. Whoa, let it roar. Welcome to the Courage to Leap and Lead podcast, where each of our guests share the stories of courage that helped them become powerful leaders. Before we start today's show, please remember to visit courage-consulting.com. Where you can find all the episodes and other excellent resources, all at courage-consulting.com. Now here's your host, Leadership Courage Coach CB Bowman.

Hi everybody. Welcome to part 2 of my interview with Sharon. And that's all I'm going to say because it's fabulous. Sharon, continue.

Yeah, all good. So we were just saying, you know, so I was contextualizing maybe like a risk, you know, that I feel like I'm taking now, which is that, you know, burnout is an overwhelm, and think people are just feeling like things are not working is such a pervasive issue these days. And I think that burnout, it's not coming from too much to do. but from too little power. And I say that because all of these situations that we face where, you know, we just don't feel heard by our management peers, or we just, you know, we feel overlooked. You're a talented woman, you get overlooked for promotion. And, you know, or it's someone in your personal life and they're just all about them and you just can't get your needs met. You know, these are really the situations where there's There's someone on your team, you just can't get them to live up to your expectation. You know, these are situations in which we react, right? And we don't feel in control and we feel done to, right? And again, we feel more like the casualty than the creator of the outcome. And these are the things that put us on the fast track. You know, it was actually during COVID I was coaching a CHRO. And CHROs, as you know, had very, very important roles. They were pivotal, you know.

Yes.

And this CHRO, I mean, She was working. I don't know how many hours a day. I mean, just you know, and and kind of exhausted, but totally exhilarated. You know what I mean? Like she wasn't burnt out. Yeah, she she needed a few more hours. You know, sleep. She needed to catch up on the weekends or whatever. But like she was in her flow. She was in her purpose. She was in control. She was not out of. She was not burnt out. It's an example of what I mean. It doesn't come.

You know what I mean?

From too much to do per se. It's when it's layered on. And so that's what I think so many people are experiencing or experiencing. experiencing this, where there's a culture in which we don't feel we're belonging, and there's policies that don't feel supportive, or it's just a battle to get things done or to get approvals or to, you know, compete with, in, you know, a cross-functional, you know, department. And then, you know, like we've been talking about, and then on top of that, in our personal lives, people are recognizing that things are getting triggered in them, you know, things that they've—

Yeah.

Had as patterns for a long time. And so I think that that's why people feel like just things are like just overwhelming.

Yeah.

And then the world, you know, feels out of our control, you know, things that are happening, and that activates fear and anxiety. And so this is really what is burning people out. And the antidote is to be in your power, because then you feel— you mean like you walk through the world like with Wonder Woman cuffs?

You know what I mean?

Power is a lifestyle.

Yeah.

Way of walking through the world that if something happens that, you know, you, you used to feel questioned and— but you don't react and take it personally in the same way. This time you kind of have a more objective understanding of what was going on, and you know how to say something in a way that gets the other person to stop doing it, or at least you're detached from their negative effect on you. You know, if you—

hold on, hold on. I want to talk about this because this is critical. Um, not that everything we haven't spoke about is not— is critical. Um, so what we're talking about is like somebody swimming like a salmon swimming upstream every single day.

It's just a battle every day.

7. How do you stop that without drowning? So the fear that people have in the stress is not only the situation that's triggering that stress, but it's also the stress of realizing if you stop it, something terrible could happen. You could lose your job. You don't have money to pay the rent. So therefore, you've got to continue in this daily stress of not being respected, not being allowed to be courageous, not being able to be in your true power. Where's the point where you can stop the Ferris wheel and get off and build your own?

Yeah, well, that's— it would be in your power, you know what I mean, if, if it's what's right, um, you know, for your life, or would help you to feel more in control to leave and to start your own thing. We definitely see that as a trend. But what I see is that a lot of people are on the brink of Because they don't know how to be in their power in situations. And as soon as they do, they can turn the whole situation around, you know what I mean? And, and make the whole culture of the team where they can thrive and everyone else can thrive. So there was—

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think it is going to sound very racist, but I think that's more true for people who are not of color. You have more options to be in your power. I think people of color have less options and the repercussions are so much stronger that you just, your power just goes from maybe 50 to minus 50. How do you stop that from happening?

Yeah. So I think There's a lot of reality to what you said, 'cause we know that the workplace or our culture is, you know, rife with racial bias. So that's true. And by the same token, I'm saying that I think universally that we have more power than we think, right?

Agreed.

And that you would wanna, exercise, you know, the full power that you have in any situation. You would want to try to maximize your control. You would want to always approach it by being impeccable for your 50% before you decided that you couldn't be seen and that you, you know, would have to leave and start your own. Unless leaving and starting your own is, you know, is what you want to do, then it's, you know, totally within your—

Or going someplace else.

Yeah, yeah, or going someplace else. Yeah, for sure. So that's— there's many examples of that. I actually have, you know, many, many examples of that in the book. Let me just give you like a couple. So there's a story of a woman who was a client of mine. She's a Black woman, and she was passed over for promotion twice within 18 months. And she saw her peers get promoted. And so, of course, she was upset. Of course, she— took it personally and assumed that it had something to do with her being a Black woman. And so when we talked together, we— one of the things that we talked about was to ask the magic question, which is, how might this be happening for you, not to you? And that really spun her head around. And because that just seemed like, no, this is, you know, I mean, I'm facing a typical bias of a Black woman who's being invisible, who's, you know, been lauded by senior leadership, who's, you know, had a big role and who's not being recognized for it while other people are. And, but when I asked her that question and we talked about it, she came to realize that actually having like a next step up as a promotion really wasn't what she wanted, that actually she really saw herself as like a VP role or even a chief people officer who's in a diversity space or even a chief people officer kind of role. And it totally like opened her eyes, you know what I mean, to what could be possible for her. And then she started to be getting herself involved in those kinds of projects within her own company. Within a matter of weeks, she was actually presenting, you know what I mean, to the senior leadership about, you know, some of these cross-company dashboards. And she was resentful, but it actually really opened her eyes. And she, she was looking at other roles, but she ended up staying there and getting a skip-level promotion because she kind of owned it. And she presented herself in that way. She was more intentional about what it was that she was going for. And, you know, the way that she influenced and the language that she used and the people that she, you know, had on her stakeholder map to influence. So it's just, it's just an example of she had more power than she thought in that situation. She thought that she had none.

Tell us more about for you versus to you. What does for you mean?

Yeah, so, um, because when anything happens, especially if it's a biased kind of situation, we just, um, immediately— I mean, I, I would get mad, you know what I mean? Um, and, um, you know, if there's an invisible force that's thwarting your life. And so, um, whether it's bias or whether it's anything that is happening that is not what we want. We always— the first thing is like, why is this happening to me? Why are they doing this? They shouldn't do this. I wouldn't do this. This is wrong. This is— the world shouldn't be this way. And it just puts us into that, you know, position. As, as she said, and there's a story about this in the book, she said, when it was happening to me, I felt like the victim. When we reframed it, and I looked at it as happening for me, I saw myself as the victor. And she said, it opened up my mind to a role that I could have. It opened up my mind to owning the value that I do bring. It helped me to think more broadly about roles that I want or, you know, functions that I could be bringing to the organization. And she ended up raising her profile. She ended up realizing, I don't even want that promotion that my peers got. That's like a little step up. Like, I'm not even here for that. Like, I'm here for my big game. She put herself on that path.

Why the word— why the words for?

Because she saw that this was something that she— was an opportunity for her that was like a lesson. Like, she, she was realizing that maybe she was hope— she was on a track for some, like, you know what I mean, incremental kind of gain. And when this happened, she was like, that's not even my path. Like, I could have gotten on that path and just, you know, kind of done that game. But she's like, no.

So the word for meaning helping you to realize that there's something greater than.

Yeah. And that it was within her control. And it wasn't happening. It wasn't outside of her control happening to her. But it was something that she could turn around in her favor. And when you live your life in that way, like, You just walk through the life, your life in flow, because no matter what happens, you make it work for you.

I love it.

Love that.

Yeah, I like that a lot. You said you had another example.

Um, yeah, that's the one that comes to my mind right now. Let me think of another one as we're talking.

Okay, because these are real. I don't want you to give away the whole book, but—

Yeah, it's true. There's— yeah. So, um, well, I'll give another example, uh, actually of a Black woman who I worked with, and, um, her story is also in the book, but I'll just abbreviate it. Um, and, uh, so she was in an organization where, um, uh, there was a lot of— um, her manager would contact her from 7 AM to 11 PM. Everything was chaotic, you know what I mean? She was overwhelmed. And the day that I met her on our first session, she said, I can't do this anymore. And she was both setting a boundary and sharing her powerful truth, all in that phrase. And she just was— she just couldn't deal anymore. And she felt like she had no power in the situation, right? And, but we started by her being impeccable for her 50%. And she went— first thing she did was she went to her manager, and she put together like a one-slide shock and awe of all the things that she was doing. And her manager was like, oh my God, like, I had no idea. Okay. And but he was helpless too. So we couldn't count on him. So she had to be in her power. So she brought together, she put together a root cause understanding of why everything from every function was spilling onto her. And she gathered the parties, the heads of like the functions who were participating in this. And she painted a vision of kind of why this was happening at root cause and where they could all get to. And they weren't that motivated because it meant they had to take back some of the work. But actually, because she knew how to influence, and we taught, we scripted that in our coaching. She brought everyone along in the vision. She actually restructured the group and the way that they did all the groups worked together. So she was ready to leave on the first day, you know, that I met her. And within, I mean, I don't know, it was probably 3 months or so, she restructured the whole thing. And the CEO of the company called a meeting with her. She was, I think, 4 or 5 levels down from him. And he said, First of all, you're getting a $95,000 retention bonus if you stay another year. And we're putting you on the fast track to become Chief Technology Officer of this company. So like, get busy. And he now has her in all kinds of meetings. And, you know, she's really kind of like changed around. She became— she was the thermometer and she became the thermostat. And she brought everyone along. Now she's sort of like in charge of bringing together the IT and the tech, you know, kind of functions. And she's really playing a hand. kind of in how things go. And, you know, she really came into this feeling like she came in at a salary that was a step below. She did not feel seen, you know what I mean? She had resentment about it, but didn't, didn't want to say anything because was grateful for the opportunity.

Mm-hmm.

And she just wanted to prove herself and the whole thing. But she took on all this stuff because she wanted to prove herself and she wanted to please. But we changed it around to what was really right for the functions and what was a plan that was going to be in the best interest of all. So she still works pretty darn hard. But you mean now it's like there's a whole structure and she made it better for herself and she made better for everyone around her because that's what it looks like to be in your power. And now she's pretty right-sized when it comes for her salary.

I wish I had you as a coach when I was growing up and still do.

So we help each other.

Oh, what wonderful stories. Now, Sharon, I have to push you a little bit more. So these are wonderful stories about other people. We want to know about you. What happened, one situation in your professional life where you felt, oh crap, I screwed this up, or it just wasn't happening the way I really wanted to? And what did you learn from that and how did you flip it?

Yeah.

Could be in writing your book.

Yeah. Well, actually—

And audience, while Sharon is thinking—

Yeah, okay.

She is really giving a really, really good example. Of what happens when you take failure and move it into the success bucket, because you don't think of it as failure. You think of it as success because it's, it's an education. It's your personal university. And you learn from it and you move on and you let the negative go and it moves into the positive zone. And that's why Sharon is having trouble. Thinking of it.

I got one.

Okay.

And, and so, you know, just to contextualize this, when you asked me this earlier, actually, I was saying that I thought that the way of thinking about burnout is, you know, having to do with power is, is an example of me trying to be in my power to speak my truth and to do something that's a little risky, or, you know, kind of a reframe or a new way of talking about something that I don't have any guarantee that people are gonna buy into, and I could be putting myself out on a limb in terms of, you know, what I'm talking about, and people won't be interested in hiring me for it. So that's, that's why I answered it that way earlier. But I'll just give you an example from when I was writing a book. So I worked with a ghostwriter who was very, very valuable and strategic in helping write the book, but was really, really not capturing my voice in a way that I felt comfortable and wanted to. And so we started to experience a lot of friction together. And when I brought— I tried to bring my concerns to her, and I really felt like she was very set in her ways and was really not listening to me. And I was like, I am on a deadline. My whole life is like invested in like, I'm like putting so much time and effort, you know, into this. I'm completely frustrated. I was going to bed with that like anger pinball, you know what I mean? Going around my head and like, I had to fire her Or I had to, and then I was going to be in a lurch. I mean, the whole thing was just like a very out-of-control situation for me. And so I did one of the approaches that I talked about in the book, which is, again, I just wanted to like take a rash action. But instead, I went to her and I took what I call a 3D perspective, a 3-dimensional perspective. And so I came in setting a neutral preframe, which I think is always a good thing to do.

Tell us about that.

Yeah, so I kind of said like, look, this, this seems like we're, you know, we're, we're not kind of— I forget the words, but whatever, you know, we're not in sync, or we're having to kind of go back and forth. And we don't feel like we're getting each other in this. I'd really love to hear from you, kind of like what your, you know, point of view is on this. I'd really love to share with you some examples of kind of how I think the voice, you know, you could be capturing my voice better. And let's see if we can come up with a way, you know, kind of that can work for both of us. It was very neutral, when really what I wanted to do is I wanted to come in there and be like, you know what I mean?

You're fine.

I said this so many times. I'm completely aggravated with you. I need you. I'm paying you, or whatever I wanted to say at the time. And like, I'm about to fire you, or any variation of those things were things that were on the tip of my tongue. But instead, I came in much more kind of neutral and kind of having understanding. That's being the thermostat. Can you see that?

Yes.

And I really— and I really asked her, you know, like, what was her process and what was going on for her? And she said things like, You know what I mean? That there were too many points and it was hard for her to figure out which one was the most important. And I was like, you know, that totally is— that's probably true, actually. And, you know, that makes sense to me, actually, why it might be hard for you to pick out the most. And maybe you were picking the ones that weren't the most important to me. And then I was able to like sort of say like, let me give you some examples where here's really what I was trying to say and here's the way you said it. And it just really, you know what I mean, did not come out that way. It was very frustrating for me. And she was like, you know, I totally see that now. So I just create, and then we just like got much more, and then we like built a process, you know what I mean? Where what I was gonna do, you know, I was gonna talk through it with her before I actually wrote the chapter and sent it. So we just made like a whole process that was like way better.

Mm-hmm.

And was better for all of us. So it's just a good example, you know what I mean? Where I just could have been the thermometer and I could have just come in there and been rash or like, you know, blown a circuit on her or whatever. And it just, it would've left all of us like in the lurch and a bad, more friction and the whole thing. But I came and I set a neutral preframe. I was the thermostat. I set the tone. I really listened. Like, I— when she was talking, I really wanted to be like, but, but, but, but I really listened. And I was like, you know, you're right. Like, I totally am doing that. Like, thank you. Like, that's super helpful. Thank you. Like, I really could do that differently. And when I talked, I presented in a way that was neutral. And she was like, yeah, you know, you're right. Like, that— I could totally see how I'm not capturing that. And we just created a process that was in the best interest of all. Because when you're in your power, Right? You raise everyone around you. So it's just every day we face this, and we have more power than we think.

I love that example because it is so hard to do when you're in a mode of upset, to go, okay, I need to hear the other person. I need to consider— I might not agree, but let me see how I can reframe So that we can at least come to a neutral point. Love it. Absolutely love it. Hey, Sharon, this has been a remarkable interview. And you know what? I wanna make sure that you see your old interview from 2 years ago, because wait till you see the difference. And thank you so much for being in your power, in your truth.

Thank you.

I don't even know what else to say because it's the new you, and I love it. Absolutely love it. I feel much more connected in a more powerful way. And thank you. Thank you so much. Audience, I hope you feel the same way because you don't know Sharon like I do. You're not as fortunate.

It's such an honor to be here with you. I think, I think being in our power looks good on all of us and has, has the effect, right, of connecting and really being able to create the world around you that you want to live in. Like, that is the opportunity. You know, when you're in your power, you shift the power dynamic. When you're in your power, you raise everyone around you. So go get the book. And you can find book resources at inyourpowerbook.com, inyourpowerbook.com. And there's lots of things that I refer to in the book that are downloadable resources. And one thing that's really, really fun that I encourage for everyone is I maintain Spotify playlists for whatever emotional state you're in and you want to do like a dance break to move it through. You can find those at inyourpowerbook.com. That's like a one, like really super easy way of changing your emotional state as well as like all the other just chock-full of strategies in your power book. And for anyone who wants to reach out to me for coaching or for speaking or women's leadership development programs, you can find me at SharonMelnick.com. Thank you so much, CB. This is like such a delight.

Well, audience, you know that Sharon just violated all the rules of LinkedIn because we're not supposed to do that.

Oh, but you can—

when you're in your power, anything can happen. Love it, love it, love it, love it. Thank you so much, Sharon. Thank you, audience, for being here. And P.S., buy the book. Have a great week, and we'll see you on Tuesday. Sharon, thank you.

Thank you, CB.