Brené with Emmanuel Acho on Being Illogical

Hi everyone, I'm Brene Brown and this is Unlocking Us. We have a great guest on the podcast today. I'm talking again with my friend Emmanuel Acho about his new book, Saying yes to a Life Without Limits. We had him on last year. We talked about his incredible groundbreaking book, Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black man. And now he's back to talk about his new book, which at first I was like, there are some pretty controversial. Not controversial, but like turn things upside down thinking in this book. But as we talked about it, while it seemed illogical, made complete sense in many ways, which I guess is, you know, props to the title of the book. We talk about his take that Goals Setting Goals Dumb Goals are Dumb. We talk about his real wisdom around naysayers and critics and cheap seats and about how we can be open and receptive in the world, but at the same time take care of ourselves and not get pummeled by, you know, advice and judgment from people whose opinions don't really matter to us. It's a really meaningful conversation. We have a ton of fun. I'm really glad you're here for it.

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Before we jump into the conversation, let me tell you a little bit about my friend Emmanuel Acho. He is a number one New York Times bestselling author. He is the host and producer of Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man. It's a groundbreaking online series that drives meaningful conversation around racial insensitivity and ignorance. It launched in 2020 with more than 80 million views to date. That's so exciting. In 2021, Acho was named the host of ABC's the Bachelor after the final rose. And he received a sports Emmy for best emerging on air talent. He is a former NFL linebacker and has a master's degree in sports psychology from UT Austin. Hook em horns. Let's jump into the conversation. Okay, y', all, I am loving illogical. Tell me, tell me.

Well, first, tell me. First off, Renee, it's always a pleasure. Illogical, Truly, it's my favorite creation. I brought into this piece of content because it is most naturally me.

What do you mean by that? You are just organically illogical?

Yes. Meaning like everybody knows me. Primarily from uncomfortable conversations with a black man. Obviously, whether you saw the series, it wins an Emmy or it winning its bestselling books, whatever the case may be, people don't realize I started writing a logical in April of 2020. For those that need the timeline, remember, George Floyd was murdered in May of 2020. I say that uncomfortable conversations was a detour. Illogical was my destination. So illogical was always where I was traveling. I just had to stop down for a moment because of this huge issue we have going on in society. But illogical, I think will speak to and can speak to everyone because our greatest achievements in life come on the other side of our logic.

Mm. Okay.

We're gonna have fun. This conversation.

Oh, we're gonna have something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got a lot of questions. I mean, a lot pages, hard questions. Let's start with this. Last time you were on unlocking us, you told us your story. This time I want you to tell us your story of illogical. I wanna know what's the birth story of this book?

The true birth story of illogical comes from the crux of the book, a chapter 11 in which I say goals are dumb. I'm sure we're going to get to that later. I'm going to give the listeners a cliffhanger. Goals are dumb. I will tell you all the birth story. It was my third year at our beloved alma mater, the University of Texas. I had just finished my third year. I had yet to graduate, but after three years in college, you can go to the National Football League. And so I submitted my name to to scouts to go to the National Football League. They respond in one of three ways. You will be a first round pick. You will not be drafted in the first three rounds, or you will be drafted in rounds four through seven. Those are the three submissions. If you don't hear back from that, you're just not going to be drafted at all. So you can either be drafted in the first round. You have a first round grade, you have a top three round grade, or you have a four through seven round grade. For our listeners that are unfamiliar, the NFL is comprised of seven rounds in total. I got my report back. It said, emmanuel Acho, you will be drafted in rounds four through seven. I said, excuse you, we just went to the national championship a year before. Excuse you, I just had nearly 100 tackles. So I took out a yellow highlighter and I highlight, emmanuel, you will be drafted in rounds four through seven. This is a true story. I hang it up atop of my headboard. So every morning, Brene, when I woke up, I looked at it and every night before I went to sleep, I stared intently at it. I committed that to memory. You will not be drafted until rounds four through seven. Because my goal was to be a top three round pick in the NFL draft. The top three round picks have more security financially and have more security based upon their roster. Think about this for our listeners, there's roughly a $200 to $2 million difference in being drafted in the first three rounds to rounds four through seven. So a lot was riding on. Committed to being a top three round pick and I committed this goal to memory. Fast forward a month later. Brene True story. I'm at the NFL Combine. This is the biggest job interview for the Sport that owns one day of the week. I'm running the 40 yard dash and as I'm running I hear boom, boom, boom, boom. I think my heels are clicking. In actuality, my quad muscle was being torn off the bone.

Oh God. Oh God.

I grab my quad with my right hand, I grit my teeth down in sheer agony and I fall to the turf in front of every NFL coach, every NFL general manager and every NFL owner. I don't get drafted on the first three rounds. Obviously I fall in the draft to the sixth round. At that point in time, my self esteem was ruined. My self efficacy was ruined, My self worth was ruined. I had set a goal and I failed. I committed that day to stop setting goals. I committed that day to setting and living a life without limits. I committed that day in that moment to being illogical. Because when you set a goal, you can fail. But I don't want to fail in life anymore. I believe in having and living a life without limits. I know you have a lot of questions, so I will stop. Wow.

Just the combine story just makes me want to cry and it makes me physically hurt. Like for people who don't follow football, you just don't understand what a big.

Event combine is I mean, first and foremost, it's watched by tens of millions of people annually. It's then replayed on social media by hundreds of millions of people. And then there are billionaires in the room simply looking at you and assessing every simple mechanical movement. The only reason I know that my wingspan is 80 inches, my hands measure at 10 inches, and my arms measure at 33 inches, is because of the NFL. One more great story for you. It won't be nearly as lengthy. I weighed in at the NFL combine at 238 pounds because the bigger the better. In the NFL, you want to have a lot of mass. Two days later, knowing I was running the 40, I weighed in at 229 pounds because I was like, well, weight is slow. So I didn't eat nor did I really hydrate for two days. Hence why I tore my quad muscle. In my book Illogical, I title the chapter Scar Tissue. Because when I pull or push down on my right quad and I'm pushing down on it now, for the listener who can't see, I can still feel the scar tissue left. And so it serves as a reminder that on your illogical journey, you will get hurt. You will make some decisions that might leave you bruised and bumped, but it'll still work out okay.

So would that moment, consciously or unconsciously, was the birth of Illogical, the book unconsciously.

That moment was the tipping point. That moment was the moment where I said, I can't do this anymore. I can't be so devastated, so distraught. Brene I committed a year, a year to this goal. And for those that don't realize what collegiate athletics, especially at a big time program in Texas, used to be the program, what people don't realize, like I committed waking up every day at 5:45, then going to weights at 6:00am, then working out from 6:00am to 8:00am, then going to class from 8:00am to 12:00pm then going, going to practice from 2:00pm to 4:00pm, then going to study hall from 6:00pm to 8:00pm then going to sleep at 9:00pm. I committed a year of my life in full dedication to that goal. So at the point in which I failed, I was crushed. That moment was the tipping point of a logical.

Okay, I don't know what the temporal the time thing is, but how soon after that moment after combine, after the draft, when did you start thinking about your dad's lessons on the power of illogical? When did you marry that tipping point moment to hey, wait, I have a lot of big lessons from my dad around Illogical.

What's Interesting. I wouldn't say that I ever married that lesson to lessons I learned from my father. For those listening. My father, born and raised in Nigeria, left Nigeria when he was in his early 20s, moved to America to become a pastor, was working for, like, $3 at Taco Bell. Then he gets his doctorate, then he gets his PhD. My dad lived his own illogical life. Now he's had four children that are doing great. It was innately in me that illogical calling and that illogical being. But I didn't have the courage. I did not have the courage to be illogical. I will be frank with you. I. It's easier to just be logical. It's easier to live in the confinements that society puts for us. It's easier to live in a box. It is easier to be afraid of other people's fears. And that is the way I had lived until I realized, Brene, it's so much easier to say, okay, at 26, I want to be married, and at 28, I want to have kids, and at 30, I want to have a house. Here's the problem, listeners. What the heck happens when you're 31, you're single, and you live in a townhouse or a condo? Now you're sitting there like, I was thinking, you're a failure. And so I never married the lessons to my dad. I finally one day just woke up and said, to hell with this box. To hell with these societal constructs. I'm done with it.

It's so funny that it's kind of counterintuitive when you think about it. That logical takes less vulnerability than illogical. Illogical takes more vulnerability, more courage than, I guess, what I would describe as the moving escalator of expectations. By this, do this. By this, do this, you know? And any deviation is really seen, as you say, as a failure.

Yeah. Yeah.

And no one's on that path anymore.

No. Because here's the thing. And the most dangerous phrase you can ever utter, and we utter it so often. Oh, my gosh. The most dangerous phrase. Well, that's the way it's always been done.

Oh, God, I hate it.

Well, that's. Brene, that's the way it's always been done. Well, okay, y', all, let's make this TV show this length. Well, that's the way it's always been done. Well, let's start this business, and let's market it like this. Why? Because that's the way it's always been done. Hey, mom, why am I doing that? Well, son, that's the way it's always been done. Like, the most dangerous phrase we utter is, that's the way it's always been done. But that never changes things. That's what I had to come to terms with. Brene. Maybe my favorite story in all of mankind as it pertains to me being an athlete, the story of Roger Bannister. Are you familiar?

Tell me. No, I'm excited because you look excited.

For 2000 years, nobody had run a mile in under four minutes. Hadn't been done. Scientists said it was physically impossible to run a mile in under four minutes. But one man, Roger Bannister, he was like, nah, you know what? Y' all are lying. So on May 6, 1952, on a damp day, Roger Bannister runs a mile for the first time in the history of our world. Three minutes, 59 seconds, eight tenths of a second. Here's the crazy part. Within two years, Brene, within two years, 10 people ran a mile in under four minutes after Roger Bannister. Why? Because one person, Roger Bannister, said, to hell with. That's the way it's always been done. Since Roger Bannister, the mile, the record for it has dropped by 17 seconds down to 3 minutes, 43 seconds. And 1800 people have run a mile, including high schoolers. But it took one person being illogical. It took one person saying, to hell with saying, that's the way it's always been done. And I'm just so eager now to encourage people, yo, change your world and ultimately change the world. We don't talk about the other 1800 people who have run the mile in under four minutes. We talk about Roger Bannister. And what I realized in my own life, it is illogical. It is stupid to think you can sit in an all white room, stare into a camera, talk for 9 minutes and 17 seconds, and get 30 million views in five days and have the likes of our friend Matthew McConaughey calling. The likes of our friend Oprah Winfrey calling. The commissioner of the NFL, Roger Goodell calling. And that that would turn into a show that would win an Emmy in a New York Times bestselling book. That is illogical. But it happened. And so I, at this point, am all in on just living this illogical life and encouraging other people. You'll live your best lives. Please, not for my sake, but the world needs the best version of you.

Okay, we're gonna. So we're gonna Skip to chapter 11 because you gave us a cliffhanger. Goals are dumb, dumb. Tell Me more. Oh, man, you're killing me. You're killing me.

Goals are dumb. We've been indoctrinated with this belief. We've been indoctrinated with it. That you have to set a goal to accomplish anything in life. I get it, y'. All. When I was a kid, my parents write down your three goals. Look at them every day before you go to school. Look at them at night. I get it, y'. All. But a goal, by definition, is an end towards which energy is directed. Why in the heck would I start something with the end in mind? If you set a goal and you achieve it, congratulations, you achieved it. But what if you could have done better? But if you don't set a goal, now all of a sudden they're in an infinite number of possibilities. So what do I say do instead of setting goals?

Yeah.

Have an objective with no limitations. Okay. Acho. What the heck is an objective? An objective, by definition, energy directed at something or something towards which energy is directed. All right? A goal, an end towards which energy is directed. An objective. Something towards which energy is directed. Small difference, Huge implications. Because now, Brene, I just shift and move my energy towards a direction. My objective is subjective. A friend of mine, Lil Wayne, I'm sure you've talked to him or listened to his music over the course of life. Lil Wayne, he says this in a rap song. Lil Wayne calls himself Wheezy Baby at times. Wheezy Baby. Lil Wayne says this in a rap song. And when you mention Pac, Biggie and Jay Z, please remember Wheezy Baby. What he is saying is when you mention Tupac, Biggie, or Jay Z, some of the greatest rappers of all time just mention me as well. That's how I view my objectives. They are subjective to people's opinions. So I no longer have some sort of finite goal. Because if you have a finite goal, you might just hit it. Let me give it to you in this sort of analogy form. An Archer, if you will, has the goal of hitting this small location. That is the archer's goal. But I want to make as big an impact as possible. So I don't set goals. Because if I set goals, I can fail. And I no longer believe in failing. I no longer believe in limits. I no longer believe in starting with an end in mind. I just believe in pursuing a direction recklessly. If Amazon's goal would have just been to sell books, Amazon would not be one of the largest trading commodities in the history of our world. So I just submit, like, stop setting goals. Consider, stop setting Goals.

Okay, I've got questions. I'm excited because I totally get how goals can be very limiting. Let me ask you this. One reason that people set goals is to stay tethered to a direction, to not be distracted, to not lose focus. Sometimes when that small thing that the archer is aiming at becomes really big, it's easy to start wondering. It's easy to lose direction. How can you be illogical and focused?

Mm, I love that. Back in the day, the mindset of society, of humanity, was, there's one dot at the wall, and I'm just on a wall, and I'm just gonna fixate intently at that dot.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, we live in a society now, as you know, even with social media, the market is saturated now. There are several dots on the wall. How can I focus on the dot that is most important? See, the reason we set goals, and I got my master's degree at and sports psychology while in the NFL, so I committed my final paper, my thesis paper, if you will, to this topic. The reason we set goals, Brene, is because we want to achieve flow. And what flow is, is when you're playing a game of pickleball and you don't even realize you've been playing for two hours. You're just mindly invested. You're trying to learn a new TikTok dance and you haven't realized that it's been 45 minutes already, or you're painting your house and you lose yourself in the moment. Because we build desperately crave immediate feedback. We desperately crave it. That's why social media is so rampant. Did this picture get more likes than the last? Did the next picture get more likes than my previous post? We desperately crave that. But what I suggest is, rather than being so fixated on that one dot, understand that there are a plethora of dots and prioritize the most important. See, goals serve a purpose communally. Goals desperately serve a purpose. I say in a relay race on track, Brene, yes, the goal is to win, but you can't win unless you get the baton around. So the real goal, as you're talking about is, y' all better get this freaking baton around. Because in track and a relay, if you drop the baton, you are disqualified. So when you are a part of a greater community, if you are at work and you have to turn in your part of the project at Xstate, of course there's a need for goals. And in illogical, I expound on this so much more. But when you are talking about your own Life. When you're talking about your own life, I think goals do much more harm than they do good.

Okay, I love this. I love anything that removes limits. So, you know, I like this. Tell me about your sports analytics class and what you learned about beating the odds from that and from poker.

Okay, Come on.

Come on.

In Philly.

Make us all rich.

In Philly, I was a backup linebacker. I played for the Eagles, but I wasn't a starter. And so what people don't realize about the NFL, if you're not a starter, you ain't got as much pressure. Like your number might be called, it might not. So there was a casino called the Sugar House in Philly, and I used to go to the Sugar House. I was a backup linebacker, so I had backup money. The starters had starting money. I vividly recall, and I'm gonna start with the story, and then I'll get to the point. I vividly recall going to this casino with the teammate we called the kid. I gotta tell the story. Cause this is my favorite. I was playing with the kid, and the kid had $40,000 worth of chips in his hand. The kid was playing table max. Table max was $6,000. So he's playing one hand at $6,000, and he's playing another hand at $6,000. He's playing two hands. In the game of blackjack, you can do what is called doubling down. Doubling down simply says, I'm going to match my money and I'm going to request one more card. The kid doubles down. He now has $12,000 on one hand and $6,000 on another. A total of $18,000 on one hand. If you round of blackjack. I'm playing after a kid. I'm playing table minimum. I'm playing $25, Brene Brown, because your boy don't got it to lose. So I'm playing $25, and the kid looks at me. And I've calculated the odds because of my sports analytics class cliffhanger. I'll get to it in a second. I've calculated the odds. The kid's odds are not high of winning. So he looks at me. I'm like, hey, man, what do you want me to do? I'm playing after you. What decision do you want me to make? He looks at me. He just shrugs. He says, the cards are the cards. I was like, the hell you mean, the cards are the cards? You got $18,000 in hand. And the kid just was purely like, you know what? Acho you do you. The cards are the cards. He Ended up winning. He cashed out with $80,000. That's a story for another time. Anyway, so sports analytics. My teacher went to temple. Temple was in Philadelphia. She was undergrad at temple. So when I was in Texas working on my master's, our final project for sports analytics, it had to be on something that pertained to sports and the analysis of sports. I asked her, hey, I play for the Eagles. Blackjack is technically considered a sport. Can I do my final project on blackjack? She said, yes. Renee, I probably spent 50 hours calculating all the permutations of different hands and different results. I know the chance that the first hand wins. I know the chances that you will win if the dealer has an ace showing and then flips an ace. I know the hands and the odds of everything. I committed to counting cards. I committed to learning all of the numbers, all the stats, all the facts when I go to the casino. And if you and I ever take a trip to Vegas, I always say, I don't gamble. I do math. And so that was from my sports analytics science.

So what's the lesson for us? There are the cards. The cards.

There are a couple of them.

I think it was a kid, right?

The kid was right. I think the biggest lesson there is go with your gut, number one. And I think the second biggest lesson is, hmm. This is a good lesson. The second biggest life lesson is, so often we try to play the hand we wish we had instead of the hand we're dealt. That's a life lesson. It's a life lesson.

Say that again. Say that again.

So often we try to play the. The hand we wish we had instead of the hand we are dealt. And I've had to wrestle and reckon with that, both as a black man in society, I've had to wrestle, and I'm sure people have had to wrestle and reckon with that. As a woman in society, you might have to wrestle and reckon with that. As a person who comes from a lower socioeconomic status, you might have to wrestle and reckon with that. As a person that comes from privilege, we have to realize in life, you got to play the hand you're dealt with. You can't play the hand you wish you had. And some of our biggest shortcomings are from playing a hand we wish we had instead of playing the hand we're dealt, or worse, trying to play the hand somebody else has.

Oh, yeah.

You know what I'm saying? That's honestly what we do.

I do.

Go ahead, Renee.

Yeah, I mean, I can do that sometimes. I do really Be thoughtful. All right, I got another story request. Laura, who produces this for us on our side, was, like, when I read this story, I felt fear. I felt physical fear. I couldn't breathe. Tell us the trampoline story.

Oh, gosh. Oh, gosh. I have so many.

Tell us how that relates to illogical.

Okay, again, all these are true stories. In Austin, there is a trampoline park. And I went to this trampoline park, and I'm 6 to 240 pounds. Back in my football days, I had 6% body fat. Now I'm probably closer to 11. Don't tell anybody, but, okay, so I'm 6, 2, 2, 40, and I'm @ a trampoline park with, like, these little kids. I walk in there, and I see these little kids, like, doing backflips, doing front flips, doing somersaults. It's great. They look at me, and they're like, hey, you want to come join us? Shrug it off. Six, two, two, 40. Former NFL linebacker. I could do that with these. I get over there to do these back flips, and they're like, all. Now there's, like, a group of, like, 8 to 10, 12 kids, and they're all like, all right, on three, you'll flip. So they start counting me down. One. I jump, I spring higher. Two. I jump, I spring higher. Three. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Y' all was counting too fast. Y' all was counting too f. 1. They count again. 2. They count again before 3. I just, like, stop. I'm just like, a friend walks in or something. I find another excuse. This little girl looks at me, and she's like, hey, man, look, I'll do it. And she just gets up there and springs and does a quick flip. I get back, and finally, finally, finally, without them counting, I muster up the courage to do a backflip. What I realized, and really the lesson I learned at that moment was a couple of them was I had the physical ability to do a flip. I had everything it took physically, but in my mind, I was afraid. See, when you're a child or 6, 7, 8 years old, like those kids surrounding me, you're just not afraid of failure. And that's why I think it's chapter two. Brene. I call it childlike faith. Because when you're a kid, man, you haven't been scarred by society. You haven't been scarred by seeing other people fail. You haven't been scarred by what you can't do. All you know when you're a kid is what you can do. One of my favorite stories throughout all of history. Ruby Bridges. Ruby Bridges. Brene. Okay, Ruby Bridges. For our listeners, Ruby Bridges was the six year old black girl that integrated public schools in the south. In Louisiana, segregation was still a thing. But finally, in 1960, segregation had become outlawed and so black children were now allowed to test into white schools. Six black children passed the test. The test was obviously, as y' all can imagine in the 1960s, outrageously difficult. But six black children passed. Three of the children chose to go to one school. Another two of the children chose to stay at their all black school. And one courageous young black girl, Ruby Bridges, she chose to attend an all white school. I talk about this more at length, but for the listeners, let me share this story. Ruby Bridges had to attend school every day by herself, just with her own teacher, because nobody else would go to class with her. She spent the entire first day in the principal's office. Her father didn't want her to go to this all white school because of the trepidation and the fear. Ruby said the one time she was afraid was when she was walking into school and she saw a black Barbie doll in a coffin. Ruby Bridges. And that a logical and courageous decision, if you will, of a six year old integrated public schools in that area. Later on, Ruby Bridges, four nieces would go on to graduate from that school. There are several parallels between Ruby Bridges story, between Roger Bannister's story, and between the story of those listening. If they act on being a logical and if they act on that courage. Ruby Bridges broke a dam open for those to follow her. The dam that Ruby Bridges opened obviously had more impact on our society as it was an integration dam. The dam that Roger Bannister broke open had an impact on our society as it pertained to the running world. The dam that Steve Jobs broke open had an impact on our society as it pertained to community communication, that a phone could act as a GPS system and a camera. The dam that Wilbur and Orville Wright, the Wright brothers, broke open had to do with aviation. The dam that Brene Brown is breaking open has to do with communication. So it's all a matter of like different geniuses in society breaking open a dam. And what I believe is everybody has that genius in them. It's just a matter of tapping into your own and being courageous. What I learned at that trampoline park was very simple. Tap back into that childlike faith, man. You have to tap back into it.

God, to me, that childlike faith when I was reading about it, what's absent There is shame.

That's good. That's good.

You know what I mean? What seems absent there? And it's so funny, because when I first saw your book, I was like, what does this mean? Illogical. It's such a compelling, provocative like. And I think of you as what I mistakenly thought of as the opposite of illogical. I think of you as a very disciplined person. But actually, being illogical requires discipline.

That part. That freaking part. That part.

Yeah. Yes, it does.

Yes, yes, yes.

And then I thought about an interview that I did sometime during COVID It's all a blur. But the interviewer actually said to me, you're an academic from Texas who studies shame. It just makes no sense that this worked out. And it brought me back to. I'm in a 12 by 12 podcast studio right now. I could wallpaper every one of these walls and the ceilings with rejection letters. I couldn't even get an agent to get a book. They're just like, this makes no sense. You can't talk about that. Someone even used the word illogical. It makes no sense for you. No one wants to talk about this. I'm like, well, I know, but everybody's got it. And the less you talk about it, the more you got it. So the gig's up here. Let's just do something. But I do think it takes a lot of courage when you start naming those names. I mean, people listen to the story about Ruby Bridges that you just told, and they think distant history. Ruby Bridges is younger than my mom.

Yeah. Brene. Ruby Bridges came to talk to me when I was in sixth grade at St. Mark's School of Texas in Dallas. Ruby Bridges. I believe she just turned 67, something like that. Yeah.

Yeah. She's younger than my mom. Yeah. This is recent history, man.

Correct.

Yeah, but these were people that were. Illogical doesn't mean scattered, right?

No, illogical means. Illogical simply means believing it is so even when it's not so so that it can be so. That's all illogical.

Oh, God. Say that again. Say that again. That's so good.

Believing it is so even when it's not so, so that it can be so. That is what being illogical means. Ruby Bridges believed she could integrate school in the south even when they weren't, so it could be done. Roger Bannister believed a mile could be run under four minutes even when it wasn't. So it was done. The Wright brothers believed that planes could fly even when they didn't. So that could happen. I believe that you could sit down and have conversations about racial reconciliation. And my white brothers and sisters would listen even when, historically they had not been. So it's continued to occur. All the logical is is believing something is even when it's not, so that it can be. And these stories are continuing.

God dang, that's so good.

They're continuing to happen. But I think, Brene, the biggest misconception. I think people doubt that they can be one of the people we're talking about. But I fervently believe everyone can because everybody's talented. Brene. It was maybe June of 20, 20, 20, Oprah called me after we did this conversation for Apple tv. And she said this. This conversation literally changed my life. She said, you have the thing, my friend. You have the thing. And coming from someone who had the thing and has the thing, you, my friend, you have the thing. I was like, yo, the hell is the thing? You know, I know what the thing is. And she was like, you have an ability to communicate difficult truths with people, and they still want to listen. Listen. And it was at that moment that I realized, oh, this is my gift. Everybody has a gift. The difference is, our world esteems gifts differently. We esteem the gift of the athlete at a higher degree than we esteem the gift of the empath. We esteem the gift of the vocal person more than we esteem the gift of the listener. But the second you realize you have a gift, now you just have to sharpen your gift and use your gift. And honestly, maybe the most meaningful chapter in illogical is at the very end when I say, if you believe that you can do anything, you've read too much. Because it's not that you can do anything. It's that you can utilize whatever you're uniquely gifted to do. To do anything.

That's a big. That's a big difference. That's a big nuance.

Your boy Emmanuel Acho cannot run a mile in under four minutes. If I train for the rest of my life, I am genetically predisposed to not being able to do that. But you, Brene, and myself, we are genetically disposable and predisposed to being able to do certain things. So I think that's just what breaks my heart, is when people don't realize, like, yo, you've got the thing. You've got it.

Let me tell you something that breaks the thing I hadn't thought about until this conversation right now. But perfectionism breaks the thing because perfectionism demands the logical. Perfectionism says, I want to know the rules so I can be better than them not so that I can break them. There's something very, very sinister about perfectionism. Well, first of all, perfectionism is a function of shame. And perfectionism is not striving for excellence. Perfectionism is this belief. If I do perfect and look perfect and then I can reduce judgment and, and blame and criticism. If you live illogically, you can have excellence. But you really can't spend a lot of time with perfectionism or trying to manage other people's perceptions of you.

Talk about it, man. You know, Brenea, a quote and I'm sure you do this too. I love just you inspire me. Obviously you know that. I go back and I look at your content and I'm like, oh, I love how she said this, I love how she did that. Even your TikTok content. Who would have thought a day that like we'd be, you know, looking at each other's tiktoks.

Jesus.

But one of the quotes that slapped me in the face, Stop letting such insignificant people have significance over your lives. It was this summer, Brene, I was in Paris.

That's hard.

I was in Paris, Brene and I went to the Louvre museum for the first time. And for those listening that have been to the Louvre, it's acres of art. Art on the floors, art on the ceiling, Art to your left, art to your right. Ain't nothing but art. So as I'm walking through and I see a line to look at a piece of art, I'm baffled. Who in the hell is disregarding all the other art to wait in a line to look at a piece of art? When we're among acres of art, I turn the corner, they're all staring at the Mona Lisa. They're all staring at the Mona Lisa. It dawned on me later that night as I finished writing a chapter. Y' all realize the Mona Lisa might sell for $20 at a garage sale if it was painted to next now. And not because it's not an incredible painting, but because the significance of it is different. In the 1400s, during that Renaissance era, if I'm not mistaken, beauty was defined by thin lips, pale skin, a large forehead and a white shape. Beauty in 2022 was defined as sun kissed skin and unnaturally small waist, et cetera. But I said, wait a second. We are on this hamster wheel trying to chase this definition of beauty that is ever evasive. And the we get close, it changes based upon somebody else's definition. We let insignificant people have so much significance over our lives. And literally, while staring at the Mona Lisa was when I realized the most recognized painting in the history of our world for sure, if painted today, would literally not get a second look. And I said, that is what we do with ourselves. We base our own worth on somebody else's metric system. We base our own value on somebody else's metric system. And it was at that point too, I said, one, that's going in the book, that's starting the book, and two, that's a baffling concept that I would let somebody else who I've never met dictate my value.

Okay, So I have a lot of really, like, hard, serious questions about this. For me, you're acho. Like, that's what I call you. Like, you're acho. Like, that's. I don't know why.

Which is my favorite nickname, by the way. People are like, do you want me to call you Emmanuel or acho? I always say acho. It was on the back of the jersey playing sports. Yeah, they put your last name.

That's probably what it was. Acho, like, yeah. But do the comments and the hatefulness, do they ever hurt your feelings?

All the time. Now, by the grace of God, I am significantly better at dealing with it. People do not.

Then what? You're better at dealing with it than what? Than before.

Than before, man, the hate and the comments and the negativity. It used to send me spiraling into jokes, just self doubt, questioning my own worth, truly. In December of 2020, six months after starting uncomfortable conversations, I was so dejected, I had to seek help from different people. Friends, therapists, pastors, teachers, et cetera, because I heard nothing but, Emmanuel, you're a race baiter. I heard that from my white brothers and sisters and from black people out here. Emmanuel, stop placating the white people. Stop being so nice to white people. Brene, I can't put out content now without nothing but loads and loads of negativity. But I just realized that to the person who loves darkness, they'll even hate the sun. You know what I'm saying? Like. Like to the person who loves misery, they're going to hate joy. And so just understand that yo not. And this also slapped me in the face. You don't like everybody, so how can you expect everybody to like you? And when I finally recognized that, I was like, oh, okay, I can live a lot better now. Like, you don't like everybody and you're not for everybody. And I had to come to terms with both my mindset, my lifestyle and my approach aren't for everybody. But yes, the comments definitely used to affect me until I realized, yo, stop letting insignificant people have significance over your life. Life.

Yeah. Because I'm in that place that you're in right now. I'm really thinking, like, I just need to disappear. Like, I can't take it. And I go in and out of it and I wonder, like, do you ever feel desperate around or did you before you came to this place where you're just like, you've got this all wrong about me. Like, why are you saying that this is not true?

Let me say something. Because what you just said really. Do you know what I mean? Of course. But what you just said spoke to my heart because I've also felt like I need to disappear. But then I realized they weren't. And who was they? Evil negativity. Cowards. Who were they? Haters. Cause I genuinely felt like, you know what? Acho, maybe you should just be quiet, just go away for a while. Maybe social media would be better off without your voice. But then they win, and I refuse to let them win. Renee. I think that so many people have so much wrong about me, but I just had to come to terms with. I long to be respected by those I respect. That's it for me.

Okay. So I think that's so beautiful and true. I'm really asking from a deep personal place, do you have to practice that? Is that a discipline? Was that a one time decision? And it all went away and angels came down from on high and you were like, ha, ha ha, you're cured of caring what they say or do. You come in and out of it. Are there seasons?

I practice.

Oh, practice.

So I used to. Cause in the NFL you would always search your name on social media, see what the world's saying, try to get ahead of it. I no longer search my name on social media. I haven't done that in maybe a year and a half. I use the block button like it ain't nobody. I'll just block. I see something not even negative. I see something harmful. I'll block on social media. I'll mute on social media. Media. It's a practice. I've learned the art of saying no. It's a practice. I've learned the art of not pouring out into people that aren't pouring in. It is a practice. It is like, you feel me on that one.

Yeah. So it's so helpful to know that it's a practice. And it's helpful to know that there are seasons. That of it. Yeah. There's something in the book I wrote down this quote I really want to talk to you about, because something's really changed for me, and probably it's maybe the size of my platform, but even we have to take people off looking at comments that work for our team. Especially if I go out around race. A lot of white women coming from me.

Hard.

Yeah, but you said the more. The better you get at your work, and the more in your power you.

Are.

The worse the comments get.

Yeah, well, yeah, Honestly, it sucks. I don't like going to this place. Cause it's a very vulnerable place, and it's a very, like, It's a very, very vulnerable place of. You just question your value. Like, imagine. Imagine picking up your phone and unsolicited, you have the opinions of hundreds. Unsolicited, you have the opinions of, like. Like, you're a clown, you're an idiot. Or people tweeting it. Your friends, like, oh, you follow Emmanuel Acho. Ugh. Like, you're. You're worthless. Like, what it will do to your mind, to your heart, to your spirit, to your soul just breaks you. I don't even remember it does. I genuinely don't even remember your question anymore, because I went to that place. Like, it will break you. But what was your question? Because I genuinely. I've just been visualizing.

I'm so glad you said that, because I gave up Twitter for Lent.

Happy for you.

Yeah, no, it's been great. It's gonna be the best 40 days and 40 nights in a long time. So it's great. But I think one of the things that I wanted to ask you about, because what's interesting to me and there's a parallel between us in this way, is I have a lot of little receptors open to the world because I'm in conversation with the world. That's the only way I can do my work. You're in conversation, literally uncomfortable conversations with a black man. And so I sometimes feel like I don't have the luxury to not read because I care what 90% of the people are saying. Cause I want to be in community with them. I don't want to be separated from this community. But then I can. You can't put the stuff that breaks on the line every day.

Yeah, man.

Do you know what I mean?

Of course. You hit the nail on the head. It's uncomfortable conversations with a black man. You are a conversationalist. So you have to know what the people are saying. Cause you're talking. You and I both have built platforms for other people, like, what you talk about, whether it be shame, whether it be becoming more free. Whatever the case may be, it's for the betterment of those around the world. It's like you, Brene Brown, have already done so much and are continuing to do so much. Now you are trying to inspire others to do so. You quite literally have to know where others are. But then I realized, I think it was a study like, 90% of Yelp reviews are left by people who had negative experiences. So I was like, oh, wait a second. The loudest ones are the angry ones, right? That's true. We rarely hear from the positive ones. Renee. Truly, truly, truly. In 19 months now, since my rise, if you will, will, nobody has had anything negative to say about me in person. I have not met one person who had anything negative to say. But on social media, everybody. And they mama hates Emmanuel Acho. On Twitter, at least. And so, yo, I mean, I think what it is.

I'm not laughing at you. I'm laugh crying with you because you.

Get it, yo, truth be told, whenever it was a month ago, right before I called you off this conversation, I searched your name and I was like, yo, she is in the heat right now. That's why I called you. I think I first was like, yo, how are you doing? I think that was my first question to you was like, hey, are you okay? Cause I was like, everybody loves Brene. I got friends. My Nigerian homeboy, he's a social worker. He was like, yo, I listen to her podcast all the time. She's great. I'm like, everybody loves Brene, man. I searched your name on Twitter. I was like, know you, yo, everybody does not love Brene Brown. I stand corrected.

So, no, the people with the eagle.

Avatars are not fans, yo, they don't like you, man. And that is okay. Oh, my God. I'm laughing so hard.

I'm laugh crying.

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Okay, last question before we get to the rapid fire. You're so great when you're on fire. What's the most important leadership lesson that you've learned from being illogical?

Ooh, I love this. I would say the most important leadership lesson do not force others to live under your constraints.

Wait a second. Say that again.

Do not force others to live under your constraints. One of the quotes I live by now One of the quotes of I live by right at this present moment, you and now are a unique combination of which has never occurred before, by which you are the best measure of success. You, Brene Brown and now are a combination that's never occurred before, by which you're the best measure of success. You, listener, and right now have never occurred before, by which you're the best measure of success. Emmanuel Acho is not the best measure of success for the list listener. You are, because you would now have never occurred. So when somebody offers you their advice, leaders, if you offer your advice, you're offering your advice based on your experience. You're offering your advice based on your limited knowledge. You're offering your advice based on your failures and your accomplishments. But you and now have never occurred before. So I think leaders have to understand, don't put your box of limited constraints onto those that you're leading. Because just because you couldn't do it doesn't mean they can't. And just because you could do it doesn't mean they will. So someone's advice is just that. It's theirs. And that is my biggest advice to leaders.

You ready for rapid fire?

Let's do it.

Fill in the blank. For me, vulnerability is Hard. I'm gonna ad lib one. Is it worth it?

Oh, abso freaking lutely.

Okay, what's one piece of leadership advice that you've been given that's so remarkable you need to share it with us or so shitty you need to warn us?

This is a good freaking question. Okay, the first one is just. Oh, man, that's a good question. Can I come back? Is this like Family Feud? Can I revisit?

Yes, yes.

Okay, come back to that at the end. Please circle back. Okay.

Oh, I can't wait to ask you this question.

I can't wait.

Okay. Acho. Are you ready?

Let's do it.

What's the hard lesson that the universe keeps putting in front of you? Because you have to keep learning it over and over and relearning it?

Criticism is the cost of praise. That's the one. Criticism. Criticism is the cost of praise.

Okay. What do you think your best leadership quality is?

Is. You know what? Oh, I'm glad you asked. I would say unorthodox belief. I wish we could expand on these answers, but I would say, tell me.

I want to know more.

I would say unorthodox belief. I lived in Austin two years ago. In March of 2020, I lived in Austin. I was supposed to take a job in New York. I have a piano. My first love has been. My first hobby is playing the piano. I was supposed to take a job in New York. I had signed a contract to go work in New York. My friends were helping me move. They were like, hey, are you gonna move your piano? I was like, nah, I'll just move my piano to la. Whenever I move to la, keep in mind, I had no plans of being in la. But in my mind, I always wanted to be in LA. This is March of 2020. By June of 2020, after uncomfortable conversations, I end up being relocated from Austin to la. Though I had signed a contract to be a New York, my friend reminded me when I moved to la, she was like, you remember what you said, right? I was like, no, what I say? She said, you weren't moving your piano until you moved to LA Brene. I had a housewarming last week and I moved my piano to la.

Kick ass. That's great.

I just. I have an unorthodox, unconventional belief. And I just believe the same for others.

Geez. I have that too, but I didn't know it had a name. Yeah, I have a deep, unorthodox belief.

That's it. That's it.

Yeah, that's it. Okay, we're going back a piece of leadership advice that's either so good you wanna share it or so shitty you wanna warn us off.

Let me go with the latter. Let me freaking warn people off. I've been given so much bad freaking advice. You know what?

Me too.

I don't even know if it's like a leadership advice. It's not advice, Brene. It's a lifestyle. It's a mindset of not being afraid of other people's fears. That's it. Because, Bre, I truly was told that I shouldn't go to the University of Texas because I couldn't play football there. I was told I should go to a smaller school. I was told I shouldn't write uncomfortable conversations with a black man because the market was too saturated. I was told that I wouldn't make it to and in the National Football League. Brene, you'll love this one. I was told that television was a hobby, not a career. I was told all of these things. So it's not even advice to warn people, love. It's really just. Just silence the critics. Because I can't warn people from one piece of advice. It's more. So just block out the noise of the naysayers because you're gonna get a lot of bad freaking advice. And honestly, it's all the same. It's all doubt. That's truly, like.

Yeah, it's all doubt and fear.

It's all doubt. And what I say now is doubt your doubts. Right? You feel me? Like, have doubt about your doubts. That would be my strongest one.

And keep your fear off me, man.

If you don't preach real quick. Brene, you better make me catch the holy ghost. Brene Brown. You better make me catch it. You better make me truly. Truly. I'm going to tell this story. I'm going to tell this story. And I know you'll just use it somewhere in the episode. I don't know if we're rapping or not, but you're going to have to find out.

No, it's great.

Go.

I love it.

Mortuous cuisphobia. Mortuous cuisphobia. Brene Brown. Do you know what that is? There's no way you have any idea what that is? No.

Did you make that shit up?

No. Mortuous cuisphobia. It is the fear of ketchup. The fear of ketchup. True story. In sixth grade, I was at my friend's house in University park, outside of Highland park in Dallas, and I'm eating a burger. We're in sixth grade. His brother Walks in the older brother and he hurls something at the table. My friend goes and hides behind a couch and is screaming in like a super high pitched tone. I'm like, yo, what the heck is going on? I look at what his older brother threw at the table. It was a ketchup packet, Brene. A ketchup packet. It was that day I learned, one, that mortuous culphobia was a thing. And two, you know how ridiculous it is to be afraid of other people's fears, yet we so often are. See my.

Yeah, we scream behind the couch.

Bingo. We scream behind the couch with our friend. And I'm like, yo, ketchup, yo, that's a fire condiment for these fries. And it just in response to that is, yo, if I could just even leave a parting message. Like, we gotta stop being afraid of other people's fears. Just because our parents haven't left that small town doesn't mean you can't. Just because, like, our friends are afraid of getting out of that toxic relationship doesn't mean you should be. Just because your brother and sister or your friends are committed to working a 9 to 5 doesn't mean you shouldn't go start that entrepreneurial business. We got to stop being afraid of other people's fears, y'. All. Yeah.

Woo. Preach. Yes, I'm gonna. I'm taking that one. I'm get that tattooed more.

Chews Q a phobia. You should.

Okay.

Get it tattooed along the spine of your back. Mortuis. Cuisphobia. It'll look great in a gown.

I'm 50% sure you made that shit up, but there's no way it can rhyme like that. Is it real?

But it is. It's true. I put a little swag on it, but like, it actually is mortuous. Q is phobia. I just.

Is that two words, mortuis and cuis?

No, I just enunciate it to make it like it's mortuous cuisine.

And does that mean ketchup in Latin or something?

I don't freaking know, Renee. Latin's an extinct language. I didn't realize Latin was an extinct language until I was in college because they taught Latin at my high school. And then I found out, like. Wait a second. So people have spent eight years studying a language that is extinct? That does not make sense.

But they can kick some ass at trivial freaking, right?

They can.

They got all those origin. They got all those origin words. Okay, five songs that you can't live without. Here's what you gave us. Days of Elijah Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Stop. Can I say them and see if they're still right?

Yes. Go.

Okay. You already told me Days of Elijah. I would think all of Me by John Legend might be on. I might have said Imagine Me by Kirk Franklin. For those listening. I haven't done this with Renee in maybe freaking 16 months. So.

Two years.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Two years. All of me. Imagine me, Kirk Franklin, Days of Elijah. What the heck else could I not live without?

John Legend appears again. I'll give you a hint.

I'm gonna say, this time, yes, you're four for five. And who's the other artist? Just give me the other artist. No. Okay, fine, fine, fine. Can you give a genre?

No, but I can tell you that the artist initials, please, are T.G.

Oh, he's got.

He's doing a shoulder shake.

T.G.

T.G.

T. G. T.G.

I'M blank. I don't freaking know what else. What T.G.

You do. Okay, let's get you to play a game.

Yes.

Okay. In Austin, sometimes you can go on a barge in Lake Travis.

Oh, Travis. Of course. You Made a way.

That's it.

Of course. That song will bring me to tears every time.

I remember listening to it when you first gave us this list, and it is emotional.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You Made a Way. I cried to that song on my 30th birthday. It was like I was crying and laughing down the street of Beverly Hills, looking like a crazy person, because uncomfortable conversations had just come out, and. And I was like, I don't know how, but you did it. Those are the lyrics to the song. And I had been told, uncomfortable Conversations isn't a good book. It won't make it. And it had made the bestsellers list. And I'm crying, laughing hysterically, jogging down Beverly Hills, outside of my townhouse at the time, listening to that song.

That's a beautiful moment.

Yeah, man.

You have to tell us. Days of Elijah, imagine me this time, all of me, and you made away in one sentence. What does this say about a. I.

Think this says that I acknowledge that my life is broken, but by the grace of God and his love, I can love other people. I acknowledge, like. Because imagine me is acknowledging life is broken. All of me is about love. You Made a Way is the grace of God. Days of Elijah is the story of God. And so I think the through line there is like, I'm a very broken human being, but because of love and God's love, I can now love other people. And I'm called to love other people.

We'll End with an amen. How about that?

That's why I like you, Renee.

Thank you so much for doing this, and congratulations on Illogical. It's so good. It's just. It actually makes no sense that a book called Illogical makes so much sense. It's like the book itself captures the spirit of what's inside the book. It's so perfect.

That is a phenomenal quote. I'm gonna make a quote card. It makes no sense that a book about illogical could make so much sense. Hyphen. Brene Brown.

Do it sanctioned.

Thank you, darling.

Thank.

You.

Okay, Barrett, is it always fun to have him on or what?

Always.

Yeah, he's just. God dang, he's energetic, isn't he? Yeah. I love his whole idea of, like, keep your fear off me.

Totally.

Yeah. I'm like, keep your fear off me, but spread some of that energy around, friend. You know, you may have noticed that we asked him some rapid fire questions from Dare to Lead because he did our Unlocking us rapid fire when he was on last year. So I had to mix it up, throw him off his game, so to speak. Again, his new book is Illogical. You can get it anywhere where you find your books. I love the subtitle Saying yes to a life Without Limits. You can find out more about acho@emmanuelacho.com, all the episodes of Uncomfortable Conversations with a black man you can find@uncomfortablecombos.com and again, always come to our episode page on brene brown.com where you can find links to everything we talk about, all the social media links for our YouTub guests and downloads. One thing to note in the church bulletin for this week, the HBO Max series Atlas of the Heart came out last week. That's Barrett wooting at us. It was scary. So good. So scary. Stop. So good. Shut. Oh, my God. If you want to know what she was like when she was 5, this was it. So good, Sissy. So good.

So good.

Thank y' all for being here today. Thanks for all the support for the Atlas of the Heart book and for the HBO series. It means more to me than I can ever express in words. It's really scary to put work out into the world, especially today where I just want to, like, take cover. I want to take cover and stay under the covers both. But I know while there's some shitty stuff that goes on, it also lands in the hand of all of y' all in this community, and we just keep walking together. All right? Stay awkward, brave, and kind. I'll See you next time. Unlocking Us is produced by Brene Brown Education and Research Group. The music is by Carrie Rodriguez and Gina Chavez. Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Unlocking Us on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award winning shows@podcasts.voxmedia.com.

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