Breaking the Ice: Brock McGillis

If I didn't figure out who I was, my hockey career was gonna end. It was already derailing quick. And number two, and more importantly, if I didn't figure out who I was, I was probably gonna end up dead.

Like, when do you really, really know? Like, I know who I am. I'm just not talking about it with people. Like, when. When do you get clear on that?

I couldn't even say it to a therapist. I was so paranoid that people would find out that I was gay. My family knew, relatives knew, and I thought I was hiding exceptionally well from Hakiwok. Then I got a phone call from a hockey mom. This mom calls me and says, brock, I want to set you up on a date. So I said to her, I said, what's her name? And she said, steve. And she said, brock, you're gay. How do you know this? I was like, it's over. But then I went, wait. All these cocky hockey bros know I'm gay and choose to work with me?

How cool is that?

I have this saying that normal doesn't exist. We're all a bunch of weirdos, and that's a beautiful thing. And the sooner we embrace our weirdness and things we like, the less likely we are to judge others for theirs.

Okay, cool.

All right.

We're excited to Talk to Brock McGillis today. He's a professional hockey player. He's got a very interesting story, and I'm excited to talk to him. I've got a lot of questions. And, Brock, welcome. Nice to have you.

Thank you for having me.

Absolutely. So why don't you start off? Just. Just give us some background. Give us a little background, and if you could touch, too, on your biggest influence early on in your life, just kind of just walk into, like, a little bit about your early childhood. Who had the biggest influence on you that kind of had an impact on you to the point where you have things that you carry with you today and then kind of walk us into your athletic career.

Yeah. So a little bit about me, my story. I was. I was a hockey player. I played in the OHL and Windsor and Sioux. I played professionally in the US In Kalamazoo and then over in Europe. And I played university hockey in Montreal at concordia. And in 2016, I came out as the first openly game men's professional hockey player. And since then, I did it for me. I did it to empower myself. But it's taken me on a whole new journey of life. I've become an advocate or activist, something along those lines for the community Both in and out of sports. I've began a speaking career. The last six or seven years, I. I've been traveling across North America, speaking at schools, corporations, events. You name it, I've probably done it. I even did a show with RuPaul's Drag Race, like World of Wonder on WOW Presents plus, which is pretty cool. And I guess growing up, my biggest influence was probably my dad. As a child, my nickname from my uncles and relatives was Velcro, because I was always attached to him, and he had a profound effect on me. And as I got a little older, both my parents did. I mean, their. Their work ethic, their drive, their determination was something that I really admired. They supported me and my brother through our sports, you know, endeavors and in our lives, school, and everything else. And they were. They're pretty incredible people, and they're my biggest cheerleaders today. Beautiful.

And what would you say is, like, one of the things that you have as a principle, something they taught you that. That really has stuck with you? I mean, what do you.

What. What.

You know, they're your biggest influence. So can you give us an example of. Of a way that they've influenced you that helps you carry yourself the way you do today?

There's nothing that you can't achieve. If you work hard enough and you push and. And you want it, you can achieve it. And I've always believed that. I mean, from being a professional athlete to the work I do now, to this daunting tour that I've embarked on today, it's always been achievable, and it's always something that if I pushed hard enough, I can make happen. There's Muhammad Ali saying, your will has to be greater than your skill, or will beat skill if skill doesn't work hard. Something along those lines. And. And my will and drive and determination has been there in everything I've done.

And I'm curious, how do they teach you that, though?

Is it.

Is it just beating that concept into your head?

I think it was. They. They didn't care if I failed at things. You know, like, if I had a bad hockey game as a kid or, you know, I mean, I didn't really struggle in school, but hypothetically, if I had, it was all about how hard I worked, and if I worked hard enough, they were happy and they celebrated that. But if I didn't, they would push me. I remember being a kid and I was taking swimming lessons, and I was 6, 7 years old, and the teacher made us do laps or something, and I was done before all the other kids. And I was just kind of sitting there and I just did it. And my dad looked at the swim coach and said, you can push him harder than that. Like, look, he's just sitting there. Make him do more. And then when they said do more, I did it. And it was, you know, there was a push and a drive, but it was always based off things that I was passionate about. And it was always. The conversation was always, as long as you want this, we're going to push you. If you don't, that's okay. But you need to figure out what you want. And if it's not this, then it'll be something else. And we will push you, but you have to want it and you have to work at it. Very cool.

How old is your brother?

My brother is 35, so he's five years younger than I am.

Okay. And were you guys always in sports?

Yeah, we were both professional hockey players. So yes. Yes, he. He was an exceptional hockey player. He had to retire due to injury, Likely would have made the NHL otherwise. And he's. He became my best friend. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, it was really interesting. When he was 15, he was playing junior hockey, which is very uncommon. Mostly it's like the youngest players are 16. But he was so talented at 15, they moved him up. And I was living away from home, but being five years older, in junior hockey, the highest age, the oldest age is 20. So he was playing in our hometown with all my friends. I would come home for the holidays or after the season, and my little brother is hanging out with my buddies, and I'm like, this is kind of weird, but it was really cool, actually. And we, we became best friends at that point and from there on.

So from a five year difference, was it competitive or not really, just because you had five years on him?

No, it was competitive. It was always competitive. I mean, I think it probably helped his career to have an older brother that was hyper competitive, that pushed really hard and challenged him. And he was so talented at sports that it also pushed me because my ego got in the way and I didn't want my kid brother to beat me at things. And he may have a few times, but I got him too. So very cool. Very cool.

And real quick, so that people listening can understand the difference when you say professional hockey player and people who think NHL and they think that's all there is, how is it explained? How do you help me understand it?

I mean, there's. There's a number of different levels. There's, you know, The NHL is obviously the highest level, but there's levels just below it, and that's kind of where we were. He would have been at the highest if it wasn't for injury, frankly, if I wasn't struggling. I'm sure we'll get into this. My sexuality and whatnot. I was ranked to be there as well. So we played tier or two below the NHL and then I went over to Europe and he had to retire.

And how long has it been since you played?

Oh, gosh, I think I retired in 2011 or 2012. Somewhere in there.

And how old are you when you started?

Six. Wow. Yeah. That's great.

Okay. All right. Well, you know, so my brand is called Authentic Authority, so I was excited to talk to you because there could be nothing more authentic than what we're going to talk about. Right. And it's such a. It's such a different world today than it was when I was in college. And just how much has opened up about this topic? It's mind blowing. It really is. And it's not like that everywhere around the world. I mean, it's, you know, I mean, it's, it's, it's very, it's very specific to people's cultures and to people's communities into people's, you know, I mean, everyone has a different culture in itself, but let alone when you start throwing in things like spirituality and when you throw in things like community and family and friend, there's just so many different types of influences. So maybe we could just kind of go from the beginning, just walk me through, like, when did you start to realize you were different? And for you, that was just going to be something that you were going to have to struggle through.

I remember my parents were watching a movie and I was like 6 years old and I was sitting there with them and I, I try and think back to what it, what it was that they were watching, but there was a gay character. And I'm trying to think around that time. Like, that would have been. I6. I was born in 83, so that's like 89, 90. So I assume it might have been like Philadelphia or something like that. Because I, I can't really. You know, I, I've been, I've tried researching which movies had gay characters in those years, but there was. There was a gay character in the movie. And I just resonated with it right away. And I looked at my parents. I said, what if I'm gay? They said, yeah. And they said, if you're gay, you're Gay. You're Brock, we love you. And that stuck with me throughout my childhood and through my life. But it was in the back of my mind because something else set the forefront. Hockey. And growing up in a men's hyper masculine team locker room. One of the main things that's talked about is girls and women. And I realized really quick that I didn't really resonate or relate to what was being talked about. But what did impact me was the homophobic language I heard. I thought, I can't be gay, I can't play the sporting bk. And that was probably in my early to mid teens. I really realized that and I went, what am I going to do? So I actually adhered to all the norms. I'm ashamed to admit this today, but I became a womanizing hockey bro. Like, I adhere to all the stereotypes. And people in my life thought I had this incredible life. I was playing junior hockey. It's the elite level. At that time, you're kind of like this little famous thing without actually being famous, like you're a known person. I, I equate junior hockey to be like a YouTuber and Instagram influencer, where you have some notoriety or fame, but like you're still accessible to the public and you're still hanging out with your peers at school or going to parties and stuff. It's not like professional athletes, the highest level, they're kind of like Brad Pitt, right? They're not accessible to the masses. So I really adhere to the norms. I was cocky. I walked into a room like I owned it. I acted like I was a gift to the world. I mean, I'd be walking through malls with my friends, signing autographs. I would get my friends into clubs, bypassing lines, no IDs. At 16, 17 years old, everyone around me thought I had this incredible life. What they didn't know is I go home and I cry. I hated myself. Candidly, I wanted to die. And on more than one occasion in my teens, I tried to because of that language I heard daily in the locker room settings beat me down and made me feel like I couldn't be me. And my whole identity was based off hockey. You know, everyone around me like, you go home for the holidays, every relative. How's hockey? You see parents of friends in, in the off season, how's hockey? You know, everywhere you went, in the cities you were playing in, people asked you about hockey. So I was in Brock McGillis, a human being, this multifaceted, multi dimensional person. I was Brock McGillis hockey player. And I thought my Other identity. Being gay would jeopardize all the work I did here. Mr. Cool question.

So I'm trying to get some context over this. Journey starts at 6 years old with a comment that kind of in the subconscious mind is like sitting there and when you tell your journey and you're talk like what you were just talking about, when you think back, how old are you? When do you have the clarity? Like, when do you really, really know? Like, I know who I am. I'm just not talking about it with people. Like, when, when do you get clear on that?

Well, it sort of happened in, in phases. At first I suppressed it and I hated myself, right? So I didn't even give myself the opportunity to explore or think about it. I just said, nope, you can't be that. You can't be that and do this. And then when I was 18, I started drinking heavily to numb it because it was coming up more and more. So I thought if I'm, you know, substances in me, I don't have to think. From 18 to 23, I drank every single day.

And how did that impact or where was the influence on sports and how much did it change things?

It ruined my career. I mean, I was on NHL draft list. I was supposed to have this linear trajectory to the NHL. Then I had seasoning injuries every year. I wasn't sleeping. I was depressed, suicidal and drinking.

Did you go to therapy?

I would see therapists off and on, but I would lie to them. I. I couldn't even say it to a therapist. I was so paranoid that people would find out that I was gay that I would lie to them. Even so, at 23, I sat myself down. I was playing the minors in Europe and I had gone from supposed to be in the NHL to now I'm in the minors in Europe. And I'm like, what happened? And I sat myself down. I said, man, you need to figure this out. Because I knew two things were about to happen. Number one, if I didn't figure out who I was, my hockey career was going to end. It was already derailing quick. And number two, and more importantly, if I didn't figure out who I was, I was probably going to end up dead.

And did you have spirituality, spirituality in your life at any point?

I grew up Catholic. I grew up in the church, which, I mean, at that point in the church, even still today, it's not always the best place to be gay. I found spirituality later. I found my own form of something. And, and that's happened more recently as I got older. Through meditation and different avenues and courses I've taken. But that point, I was just talking in survival mode.

You know, it's funny, the I, I'm part of a leadership program that I've been doing for over a decade. And part of it we call our whip. Our whip is our worldview. It's what we believe. And then the I is the identity piece. And it's probably one of the most misunderstood pieces because it's the hardest thing in the world to do, is to become yourself and to know who you are. And because we identify ourselves as a hockey player or an entrepreneur. And that ends, you know, you're not left with much if you don't know who you are. And so, and people in our program would always question, like, what does that mean? Is it what I am today? Is it what I want to be? Is it what I want? And people are. It's incredible watching people go through this journey of trying to figure out their identity. And yet, like, you knew it and then you were dealing with the integrity gap of like this, this, you know, tension of, you know, living a certain way yet believing, you know, what you, who you, you know, who you were and you weren't able to live it that way. And you know, they always say that the way to live a meaningful life is to live aligned with your beliefs, with who you are, and then you could feel fulfilled. And so here you are fighting that like crazy. And it's interesting because I didn't even really think about, you know, you think about someone who didn't get to the highest level of the NHL and to hear you say that you kind of self sabotaged it, you know, it's totally.

I, I, I think it was subco. I think all the injuries were psychosomatic. I think that played into it. I think it was, it was a, at times it was a relief when I was injured, right? Because then I wouldn't have to be in the locker room and hear what I heard daily. I wouldn't have to be beat down. I wouldn't have to play this character. Like I've realized later in my life I was an actor.

Did. Was it daily?

Wow.

And anyone ever suspected, anyone ever call you out?

No, because I, and again, I'm ashamed to admit it, but I was a womanizer, right?

You were like a master.

Like, I, I became all the stereotypes you think of with like a professional athlete.

Right.

And, and it wasn't until I was 23 that I decided, all right, I need to figure this out.

Was it just like a Flip switch for you.

I just sat down one day and well, something happened. I don't really share a lot of, I checked, this is pre apps, but I checked a website and I, I looked at, it was like gaydar or something. And I can check different cities and I, I, I checked a city in Canada where I knew people and I saw a lot of men who were adults, probably 40s up, who were closeted and married to women. And I went, that's going to be me. And listen, I don't judge anyone. I was, I was younger than them. They grew up during a different time. I, I don't, I, maybe their spouses know, like that's none of my business. But I thought about and I said, well, I didn't grow up during a time where it was illegal to be gay. I didn't grow up, you know, where I'm living in the midst of the HIV AIDS epidemic. I can't in good conscious end up with a wife and kids and then be on websites or apps, you know, because I have sexual urges and desires because I'm actually a gay man. So I thought, you need to figure this out. So between knowing I'd probably end up dead, my cocky career going downhill and, and that I just said it's time.

And I was 23, I was 23 years old. Who's the first person you talk to?

So I, I'm from Su, Ontario, which is a small town. Well, it's about a hundred thousand people about four hours north of Toronto. But I didn't want anyone there to know because I was a known person. You know, hockey is everything in that city. So I went to Toronto and I went on a date with a guy. Instantly I was like, yep, you're gay. I, I knew, I was like, this is it. And honestly, initially I was so relieved because I had now accepted myself, right? And I was like, my career is going to get back on track. And obviously my mind went talking because I've still my identity, my career is going to get back on track. I'm going to make the NHL. Everything's going to go the way it was supposed to. But it got worse because now I wasn't suppressing it, I was in the closet, I was hiding it. And I started dating that guy, actually dated him for three years without a soul in my life knowing.

Wow.

Not a friend, not a family member, nobody. And we actually had an alias that we used so that his friends wouldn't find me on social media and figure out I was a professional hockey player and potentially Jeopardize my chances of making the NHL. Yeah, it was quite intense.

I mean, so three years, and then how long did you play? How old were you when you stopped playing hockey?

I was 28 or so. 20? Yeah, about 28.

So then there's another two or three years after you're dating that first guy.

Yeah. Well, I kept having injuries, and I decided to take a step back, and I went to school and I. I went to university in Montreal at Concordia. But I decided to play on the hockey team there just in case I got my life figured out and I could take another crack at the NHL, because I was still my focus. I was zeroed in on making it. And I told him, listen, I might have to go on dates with women because I was injured for a little bit before, so I. I could get away with not adhering to the norms. But I told him, I said, I might have to do that. I hope you're okay with it. He wasn't, which I completely understand. And I was like, well, we have to break up. So that relationship ended, and I went to school and I played for two years, but had more injuries. So dealing with so much, had a couple of knee surgeries and decided that was. That was the end of hockey.

Okay, so then who's the first person you talk to after when you come out?

Well, at that point, one night, I was. I was watching a hockey game on tv, and there's this young guy being interviewed while I was at school. And his name is Brendan Burke. And Brendan is the son of Brian Burke. And Brian Burke was the president GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs. He's ran the Calgary Flames, the Vancouver Canucks, Pittsburgh Penguins. He worked for the league for a while, the NHL. And now he's one of the people in charge of the women's professional league. And Brendan was talking about following in his father's footsteps and making the NHL's general manager. And I wasn't really paying attention to the interview. I was doing some schoolwork. And then he said something that really caught my attention. He said, and I'm gay. And my head whipped around and stared at the TV because I was in shock. I'd never heard somebody say they were gay in hockey. The only time I ever heard the word gay in hockey was when one player was calling another player gay in the locker room or on the ice. Hockey world's a pretty small place. So I reached out to Brendan that night, and we instantly became friends. And I came out to him. Wow. And it was such a relief to have somebody I could talk to about being gay and hockey in the duality of the two. And beyond that, I could talk to you about my breakup. Because the only thing worse than dating somebody for three years without a soul knowing is breaking up with them and nobody knowing why you're sad or upset or not yourself. And I think it was great for him too, because he had this hockey family and then he had gay friends, but he had nobody who understood the duality like I did. We, we had this unique bond and connection. Then one day he sent me a text message and it said, I can't wait for the day that you're up to your family like I am to mine.

Was that, by the way, when he, when he called that on tv, was that the first time he ever told. Like that was like his public announcement?

That was his public announcement. His family knew he had gay friends, but he came out openly as somebody in hockey working on the.

That's an interesting way to do it.

I think because his dad was so, is so high profile in the sport and because he wanted to follow in the footsteps of his father and make it in, in that capacity. And I think he was tired of living in secret in that world. So he came out publicly and we talked every day.

No, it's interesting, as I hear your story, I can't help but think, like, it's interesting that you didn't talk to your parents because your parents who unconditionally love you and have the biggest influence on you and told you in the back of your mind you could think back like all these times where you were struggling that you knew your parents would still love you. Was it ever, was it ever like tempting to like, just let it out to your parents?

Totally. It was. In fact, one day Brendan sent me a message and he said, I can't wait for the day that you're out to your family like I am to mine. And I ignored his message. And it wasn't because I didn't think my family would be inclusive or supportive. It was the fact they were so involved with hockey. Both sides of my family, my mom's side and my dad's side were really immersed in hockey in different capacities. I had relatives that played high levels, I had cousins who were playing pretty high level. I had relatives coaching in sport and whatnot. And then my own family, my brother was a first round pick in the OHL, played professionally. My dad coached AAA in junior hockey for 30 plus years. And I was afraid that my family, those people in my life, if they knew I was Gay. They become more sensitive to the language used in locker rooms, and that would cause them to stand up against it, which, in the process, they may, you know, in a heated moment, accidentally help me and jeopardize any shot I had. So I ignored Brendan's message. Those ended up being the last words Brendan ever said to me. Two days later, he passed away in a car accident. Wow. So I was sitting in Montreal, and the first person I ever loved I just broke up with. And now my only friend who knows my life has passed away. And I felt like I needed to honor the friendship and what it meant to me and how impactful it was on my life and my journey. I kept going back to our texts, and the last one just stuck out to me. And at that point, I decided to come out to my family. I sat my brother down first and told him, and he's like, yeah, so. And then I told my family and all my friends who were involved in hockey.

Wow. So tell me the reaction you got from. From everyone else outside your family.

Everyone in my life that I told at that point was great, but I didn't come out in the sport at that point. And it's interesting, as a queer person, you're always coming out, you know, whenever I enter a new space, unless. And I'm. It's a little different now because I do a lot of media and I. I engage with a lot of things. So a lot of people may know already, but there's always that interesting aspect of being, like, coming out and telling people, you know, And I stayed closeted in hockey at that point because I just retired. I moved back to SU and I started working with athletes. I was doing off ice training on a skill development with players, and I'd grown. I had two or three businesses in the sport, and I'd grown them to the point that I was working and had a team working with, like, 100 players a day in. In short order. And. And I was like. I was afraid that the older players, if they knew I was gay, wouldn't want to work with me and that the younger players, that their parents wouldn't want them to work with me. Because the reality is there isn't a ton of exposure to the LGBTQ community in Northern Ontario. So I hit it. And for about five years, I thought I was doing a great job. Like, I was in relationships. I had a partner at that point I was living with, and, like, my family knew, relatives knew, and I thought I was hiding exceptionally well from the hockey world. Then I got a phone Call from a hockey moment. And working with 100 players meant a lot of phone calls from hockey parents. Hockey parents are a unique breed of human. They're interesting. This call was different, though. This mom calls me and says, brock, I want to set you up on a date. And I went, oh, like, what do I do? What? How do I get out of this? And initially I was thinking of the excuse. And then I started thinking, well, I wonder what she thinks my type is. So I said to her, I said, what's her name? And she said, steve. And I said, what? And she said, brock, you're gay. And I started saying, I don't know what you're talking, and I couldn't even finish the sentence. And she's like, you're gay, Brock, you're really gay. I was like, how do you know this? My son told me. Your son's 15 at the time. She's like, all the boys know?

Wow.

Yeah. My heart started racing. I broke into a sweat. I was like, it's over. Businesses I've been building for five or so years, they're all done.

What year? And what year is this?

2015. Okay, so it's over, you know, like, they're going to leave. They're going to go train somewhere else. How am I going to pay my bills? How am I going to pay the people working for me? Like, what am I going to do? But then I went, wait. All these cocky hockey bros knowing gay and choose to work with me in Sudbury, Ontario, where there isn't a ton of exposure to the LGBTQ + community? How cool is that? I thought, well, maybe I should come out to them. Then I said, nah, you know what? I'm gonna do a little sociology experiment. I realized something. They know I'm gay, but they don't know that I know that they know that I'm gay. Right. I could observe them kind of like animals in the wild, hockey players in their natural habitat. And I start to recognize anytime they said something homophobic, they freeze up and apologize to me and shrug and nod and just keep going with things. After a while, I started thinking, maybe we're creating a shift here. We have this insular world, and we have this little bubble within that world. Maybe we're creating a shift. And then I thought, or maybe they just like me. I present masculine, I out bench press them. I go on the ice and beat them at hockey and chirp them. And, you know, like, maybe. Maybe they like me, but maybe.

And that can make a big difference, right? Because if they can't do that stuff then, then they feel like they can almost have an authority over you. Right. So like totally.

And, and then beyond that, I, I was, I adhere to a lot of the norms still. Like I presented masculine, like if I was a feminine presenting gay guy, maybe they would have felt the same way. If I was trans, maybe they wouldn't have felt the same way. If I was overtly bringing a partner around and affectionate, maybe they wouldn't have felt I didn't know. Right. And then one day I wasn't there and I had a sprint coach working with some of my athletes on a track. And at end of a two hour workout, he told him they had 10 more 200 meter sprints. And one of the younger players who's like 16, looked at sprint coach and said, this is so gay. I can't believe you're making us do this. And an older player who's playing major junior, about to embark on a career in the sport looked at the younger player and said, we don't say that here. Give me 50 push ups. And that became something my athletes adopted amongst themselves. Ah, to hold each themselves accountable, to break the habits, but also hold each other accountable. And then because they are these influencers in their communities, they took it to their peers at school, their teammates and different people. And before I knew it, people I didn't even know were doing push ups anytime they said something homophobic. In fact, the younger player, one ate one of his teammates I've never Met was on FaceTime with his girlfriend and girlfriend said, let's hang out. And the teammate said, now I can't have practice. And she said, that's okay. You never want to hang out with me. And he looked at her and said, give me 50 push ups. Right now where we're breaking up. And they both drop down and do 50 push ups. And that was the moment I realized we could create shifts. That was like the aha moment.

We or you.

They created a shift first.

They did. But if you're a catalyst the way you are and because your situation is very unique, very unique and it's so distinctly different than people who've been in your shoes, right. That it's hard to say that everybody could have done what you did or what, what you're in your story, what you're doing here, because. And even what you're doing now with this tour, because I don't want. You're confident and you've got the likability factor. You're a nice guy, but you, but you have, you have that, that differentiator you do, the fact that you can still go out and kick those kids butt, the fact that you, you know, it's, That's a big deal. And I, and, and I, and, and coming up as an athlete myself, never being around a situation like yours outside of my work, because in work I have, I can't relate. I wouldn't be able to say I can relate, you know, because I don't know. And, but I know that I, but common sense tells you it's a differentiator. So I asked you that because I'm wondering how much responsibility do you take to make that shift? And do you feel like you are like it's on your shoulders, like you have a big responsibility now?

I do, but I think they created a shift too. And I think big or small, like that one player telling the other player give me 50 push ups, made me realize the shifts I could create. So his shift may have been small, but it had a ripple effect. And I think shifts big or small do. And we never know the impact they have without him doing that. Maybe I don't realize the shifts I could create. Maybe I continue running hockey businesses in Northern Ontario for the rest of my life. I don't know. So I have to give him some credit there because yeah, I was creating a shift in them just by existing, but they were also creating a shift in me. And when he did that, you know, there's a ripple effect from that. That's why I'm talking to you right now.

Yeah. 100. And I think the difference, and I think where I was trying to go with that, is that the catalyst to the ripple is one thing, because like, almost unconsciously I'm just doing what I feel is the right thing, like, hey, sit, go, do. But now, like when you take it to a whole new level and you start touring and you start like taking that, that magnum opus within you to say no, like now, now I'm going to really leverage this. Right, because that's what you're doing.

Yeah. And I think now, like, yeah, I, I see myself as a shift maker. I see myself as, you know, somebody trying to pave a path, lead away something incredibly unconventional. I, I've never seen it done the way I've been doing it and I do. And, and, and it is like you asked if it was, you know, like if I put weight on my shoulders and whatnot. And yeah, I mean, I have people in my DMs regularly who are struggling. I've been able to help people get you Know who are self harming and on the brink of death, support. And one kid come to me and, and like I've, I've had a number of people where I've gone them support and worked with their families, especially young people, to get them the help they need and to be that shoulder and ear and lend my experience. But this one kid saw me on my show with RuPaul's Drag Race and he reached out and his family was, you know, on the brink of kicking him out because they found out he was gay. And I've been a resource, somebody he could talk to, support system. And he ultimately went on finishing college. Now he's feeling better, more confident, comfortable in himself. And he, he messaged me about a month ago and he asked me if my partner and I would come to his college graduation because he's like, my parents aren't coming. Will you two come? And that was pretty like I can with, with a lot of the stuff I do. Like, I have to detach myself from the stories I hear because initially, early on, it took a toll. It brought me back to a dark place. But this one was like, so feel good in a sense that like, recognizing the impact I've had with him and for him to be like, can you come watch me graduate?

That's your question. So when I hear your story, and I'm not going to take anything away from your story, but like your story can be applied to anyone who's different, that is hiding who they really are. Right. This really doesn't have as much to do about like the what, like, like what you're, you're coming out with, you know, because I could give you 100 stories that I know of and I, I have one, my personal one, and the strength that I know it takes to be able to overcome the fear of what people are gonna think and say and treat you could be applied to anything that you, that makes you distinctly different from everyone else around you. Right. So I'm wondering, like, talk to me really quick because I don't want to run out of time. But when it comes to leadership and when it comes to being a leader, how do you define leadership and how did it change from. In the hockey world of leadership? I mean, if you can just touch on like, what was leadership like from the hockey perspective and from a coaches and from a team, and then now your leadership role in a kid's life like that, the influences you have, has it changed? You know, just talk to me about like the role of leadership in your life.

Yeah, I Think to your initial point. My story is a gateway to talk about inclusive spaces and being yourself and breaking barriers of conformity, and it transcends lgbtq. Pick the topic. But it's just the gateway to get into that deeper conversation. In terms of leadership, I think in sports you can do whatever you want and then it's what you do in the locker room and it's either being that vocal leader or that hard worker on the ice, etc. I think my role now has changed to the point where, like, I, when I was an athlete, I could go do goofy things all day or like go out and do stuff. And now it's like, well, I have to be sort of on. You know, I'm always on because everywhere I go, people come up to me like, I'm in Vancouver on tour and I went to a nightclub one night with some friends and a person who's working on tour with me and people came up to me, are you Brock? And I'm like, oh, this is different. Okay. So I have to recognize that everywhere I go and then working with youth, what I post, how I engage on socials, the example I said everywhere has really changed and I want to be that example for them. I want to be that person that they look to and go, oh, this is how he navigates this. But also being an ear and a support and somebody they can come to and confide in and trust, whether it's, you know, I've had 70 year old adults all the way down to like 14, 13 year olds and, and being there and not even just gay, like just somebody who needs somebody to talk to and that means I'm on, that means. And sometimes it's combative. It's people who disagree with me and my life and everything, and it's engaging in those conversations to hopefully guide people to listen. I'll never change how people feel about the LGBTQ community, but if I can get them to critically think about why they feel the way they feel, then maybe we will spark some growth and evolution and we will see some progress. So it's about, to me, leadership now is about being self aware at almost all times, being a resource and leading by example. And that's pretty similar to sport, but being a confidant, being somebody they could come to and then being a pillar and doing things that they've never seen to hopefully inspire them.

You see yourself as a leader?

Yeah.

Have you always.

I think there was a time in my life when I was in survival mode and at that point, not so much. I Think when I was younger, I definitely was, and I think now I am. I think it's who I was always meant to be.

You know, one thing I've learned about leadership, especially when you are successful as a leader, is that you can feel very alone.

Very alone. Isolating.

And now that. And because you're on the spotlight, because you're always on. One mistake and they'll shoot you in.

The back and people look for it, of course, it's.

The easiest thing to do is to. Is to call out the leader. I mean, like, why not? Like, so when it comes to business and when it comes to sports, when it comes to communities, you know, that, that role is a. Is a. You know, we. We joke around. We said, don't want to be a leader because if you want to be ready to have some pain and suffering because it sucks being a leader, you lead anything and you got pain coming, you know, because it's hard. You're passionate about what you believe in. So I wonder in my brain, like, as you do your. Your tour and as you pick up steam and as you become more of a figure that. That a lot more people are going to look up to, because you have this distinctness about you that I think will draw people to you and you have a strong confidence now about it. And I. And I wonder finding yourself in a place where you feel alone, hopefully you won't, because you'll have a lot of people. But, like, when push comes to shove and someone's got to be the one standing up, you know, I just wonder, like, do you think about that? Is that even a problem for you? Or do you have so many people that rally with you that it's just not going to be an issue for you?

No, it's already happened.

Has it?

Yeah, of course. I mean, I get attacked as much online from queer people as I do from people that are anti lgbtq. Plus.

I was going to ask you, like, you. Your experiences, did you have a lot of bad experiences afterwards? Like, did people. Do people still. I mean, now are you experiencing hard stuff?

I mean, we know how polarizing things are right now, especially in America. Right. And with the community. And. And, yeah, I mean, it's sort of toned down a little bit recently, which is great. But there was a long period of time I was probably being called a groomer on the Internet about 100 times a day. And then on top of that, if I said something like that a queer person didn't like, they would lash out at me. So I was like, well, the community I'm, I'm trying to support and push for, gets upset with me, even if I've done something that is like not even right, like a cancelable offense or anything in that regard. But just, and a friend of mine explained it to me, she said, brock, when I'm really struggling or upset, I take it out on my mom. She's like, for a lot of these people, you're that figure.

Do you think people know why they don't like you or do you, you know, like I'm Jewish and I'm very religious and people want to kill me and they don't even know me. It's crazy.

I get those too. I get those too. Yeah.

So it's a weird thing, right? And like, you know, I worked with a lot of people who were gay and I had people comfortable enough in our culture. They came out to us at work, which was very unique and very, and I have to say some of my best employees ever. And I was very close with them because the trust and I don't know know what it is. I mean again, I have no context and I don't pretend like I do. I don't, but I don't care. Like for me it's like you are you. And, and so our, our core values were to be distinct and deeply connected. So, you know, you could be you, I could be me, and that's cool. And I don't push it on you, you don't push it on me. It doesn't matter if it's religion, doesn't matter if it's whatever it is. And for me it's hard because I don't understand why more people can't be like that. Because why do you care what someone else, how they're living their life, right? Like everyone's different and unique in their own way.

I have a theory because they're not living authentic. And to your point earlier, they aren't self aware and they haven't figured out who they are because it's easier to not. And then you lash out on others who are.

It makes you feel better for sure, right?

You know, because there's some resentment there that this person is living authentically. They are their, their true selves and they're happy in their skin. Right. You know, I, I, when I, I talk to queer people, I tell them, I say stop looking for, I hate the word acceptance. Only you can accept you. For others to accept you creates a hierarchy that they're above you and we're all equal. So you know, and, and if we Take away that thing and you re recognize that self acceptance is what matters. You will be happier because you're not going to care what other people think about you. And to your previous question, I don't care what anyone thinks about me. Am I isolated and alone at times? Yeah. I have a tight core group I keep around me. I keep my therapists on speed dial and I meditate daily. And I do enough self care to make sure that I'm stronger than anything that comes at me.

You care. I mean, like you're human, you mean. We always say care, but not that much. But like, you know, you care.

You know what changed it for me? I had somebody calling me the most vile things and threatening to kill me, and this, that and the other on social media. And I, I messaged them, I said, what would make you think that this is okay to say to somebody? And he broke down and told me he had been sexually assaulted by both of his parents growing up and he was really struggling. And it changed my perspective on people lashing out at me. What I actually started doing, especially in the midst of the pandemic, is if queer people or marginalized folks would lash out for anything, it could be something that didn't even. But they would.