From Struggle to Success: Heather Lowe's Coaching Mission

I love drinking. And when I turned 21, the legal drinking age, I already wrote, I'm afraid I'm an alcoholic.

Define addiction.

I would say it's compulsive thinking. It took every bit of headache, and I'm free from that now. So anything that doesn't allow you to be free, your new life is going to cost you your old one. And it's true, there's a lot of barriers to wanting to quit. It's tough. There's a lot of grief when it comes to change, there's a lot of sadness and letting go, even when it's good for you, even when it's healthy. So coaching is this beautiful process of walking people through change. And with my knowledge of neuroscience and addiction and what that looks like, I can literally hold somebody's hand, shine a flashlight on their path. A jar can't read its own label, but a coach can point out to you your limited thinking. Sharing your story is really, really important because like I said, if somebody can see themselves in you and where you were and what you have, that could be the hand to hold to pull them through. Okay.

All right, great. So I'm with Heather Lowe, the founder of Ditch the Drench. She's a certified professional life coach and recovery coach, certified addiction awareness facilitator. She's the director of the International center of Addiction Recovery Education and certified in the science of well being from Yale University. So welcome. Thank you so much for joining me.

Thank you. It's awesome to be here. I appreciate it.

So we got an opportunity to get some of the content from you in our first interview, and I was excited to follow up because I think as a leadership coach, I know that one of the biggest unseen and unheard of problems in entrepreneurship is addiction. And it runs wild through a very large community. And it's usually something that people will hide from because it's very difficult to deal with. And with your experience and your background and just personally and professionally, I thought it'd be a good opportunity to share kind of just authentic way of looking at a tough subject that people are struggling with. Right. So maybe you could start off by telling us a little bit about your background and what makes you such a. A good coach in your industry that you can coach other people and help them through that struggle.

I love it. Thank you so much for broaching this tough subject because it is something that people want to shy away from and ignore, deny, avoid. I certainly did all those things myself in my own story, so I really appreciate it. And our first interview was one of the most favorite interviews I've ever done because you asked me like the story of origin, like who, who are you? And where did this develop? And it started with an idea I had in the third grade. So it's something that's kind of always been with me. So most of my background was even though I was a social work major in college, but I quickly moved to human resources. So for 20 years of my career I sold HR solutions locally, nationally and globally. And alcohol was often part of the job, right? It's very much in the corporate world. And this time, especially when we're recording this around the holidays, there's holiday parties, we use it for networking, we use it as corporate gifting. I mean, what else to give a, a client but a bottle of wine or an employee? And it's part of gatherings, it's part of celebrations as part of rewards. So it's everywhere and it's a legal substance that is consumed by a lot of people. So it seems very normal. It's very normalized. And I personally am from Wisconsin, so drinking is, is very normalized. And I got caught up in it. I had probably a regular drinking story, like many people did, drinking through high school, drinking through college, kind of a rite of passage drinking as a young urban employee, right? I was just drinking better drinks and fancier locations. Then it hit like a mommy wine culture sort of situation where my husband and I decided he traveled a lot and I worked part time and I had young ones and my social life came to a halt. And so I was drinking a little bit at home, you know, just drinking some wine. It felt very European, very normal to get through that dinner time, bath time, bedtime routine. When the truth was I was lonely, right? With the life change. And then again in the workplace, my drinking was escalating and my career was going up the ladder and I was getting access to decision makers at a happy hour that I didn't get in the office, right? And I loved it because I love to drink. So a lot of my drinking looks really normal. But towards the end I was hit with some unexpected and out of order deaths of loved ones, friends that were my age, and then my dad. And this is sort of where my drinking took a turn and it turned more into self medication for that grief. I did three eulogies in three years. So I wanted to really perform beautifully and gracefully these eulogies, which I did. And then I didn't allow myself to feel the pain of grief afterwards. I told myself just to get over it, like the services were over. Get over it. And that's where I leaned on alcohol. And alcohol's job is to create dependence. It's actually a drug that creates dependence. We don't really sell it like that. Right. We sell it as reward and celebration. But that's when I started to not feel good without it. Pretty much needed it for everything. And, you know, it was a struggle to let go of. I. I tried very hard to keep it in my life because I didn't want to be sober. I didn't want to be a person in recovery. I didn't want that story. Right. I didn't want to be addicted or call myself addicted or anything like that. I don't think anybody really does. You know, we fight that as long as we can, but ultimately, I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled. The best surprise is, like, how beautiful sobriety is and how great it is to live out loud authentically and now help others do the same.

Wow. How long were you in a denial stage?

So, I mean, probably my whole life. I. I love drinking. I mean, I have old journals, and when I turned 21, the legal drinking age, I already wrote, I'm afraid I'm an alcoholic. I loved it more than anyone else. And I didn't. I had fomo, fear of missing out. Like, I'm super extroverted. I was life of the party. I wanted to go out all the time, and I knew I liked it more than most. Right. Plus, it was in my family on both sides. I had people in my family, and I had childhood trauma. You know, I. I was a child of divorce. And, you know, there was things. So I had a perfect breeding ground. Looking back, I go, of course. Of course I was a drinker. Like, who? Of course I was. Who wouldn't I be? And I can take some of the blame and the shame off of myself looking back now. But my first sober experiment, I went for 100 days alcohol free. And I didn't do this to be sober. I did this to prove that I didn't have to be sober. Right. I always say, like, dying from alcohol was the worst case scenario. Getting sober was the second worst case scenario. Like, I really didn't want to do that. I left claw marks in, in my wine bottles. But I went for 70 days. I didn't make it to 100. I made it to 70 days. And I thought I was cured and I went back to drinking. But what that normal drink, I was going to try to be a normal drinker, which we should talk about what that is. And what that looks like because I think it's pretty elusive. But what those 70 days taught me was I started to build this relationship with myself that I had never had because I was pouring alcohol on all my thoughts, you know, my own inner critic that was very loud. I have perfectionism and people pleasing tendencies and I didn't want to hear what I had to say. It was easier just to pour alcohol on it and smile and nod and go about my life. So when I removed alcohol for this hundred day challenge, like my head hit the pillow with a lot of pride every night and I started to tune in to what I was thinking and what I was saying and I started to align with my inner self and my inner world. And that seed is what is the thread that got me through to where I am today. So for three years I did this, this on, off drinking experiments, trying to, you know, taking a big break.

Who was your rock and were you in a program? Like how did you do it? Was this bare, you know, white knuckle, I'm doing this.

Yeah. So there, there. I didn't do a program. There wasn't a program. So I created my own. It didn't feel right to me. The things that were offered at that time didn't feel right to me. I wanted a real holistic view and I didn't want to label myself, you know, I didn't want to, I really wanted to banish the shame around it. So I, I had a friend that went through it with me. That was the difference from the last time. So I quit about six years ago for the last time and forever. And I'm happy to say that now. But the things that were different the last time than all those other experiments was one, I asked for help. As somebody who is high achieving and independent and was raised by a single mom, I don't need any help. You know, I basically fell to my knees and said to my husband I need to quit drinking and I could use some help. And he was thrilled to hear those words and get some direction because he didn't know how to help. And it was confusing for him because sure, I was drinking too much, but I was also moving up the ladder in my job. I was also looking every morning completely.

Functional, like a.

Yeah, I was, I mean, in fact over functioning, over functioning because of my guilt and shame over drinking. So I would, I tried to hide my drinking, of course, and then would wake up in a panic and get up early, make the lunches, sweep the floor, clean up any evidence of my drinking and Go along, drag myself through the day. Right. And so I was over functioning. So it was confusing. It wasn't a rock bottom necessary story. There wasn't a doctor didn't tell me to quit. A lawyer didn't tell me to quit. A policeman didn't tell me to quit. It didn't look like that you're blessed.

Right. Because I would imagine you see a lot of people who the rock bottom is, what is the catalyst to come talk to you.

Yeah. And rock bottom can be. I was waking up miserable every day. I was waking myself like I was waking up and punching myself in the face. So it doesn't have to get worse than that. It really doesn't, you know? Right. Like that can be enough.

Let me ask you a question. How do you define addiction? Like, how would you define it?

Yeah. I would say it's compulsive, thinking about something. So it could be a behavior, it could be a substance. I think we all can relate to it in some way or another. I mean, I think it's. Once you have a taste of a potato chip, it's hard to put away the whole bag. Right. You keep thinking about that potato chip or those cookies. It could be online shopping, it could be scrolling. I think there's a lot of ways. But when it's taking over your thinking, it's the thing. Like for me, it was the thinking about drinking. Drinking was one thing, but I was planning my drinks, acquiring my drinks, getting my drinks, recovering from my drinks, hiding my drinks. It took every bit of headspace. Drinking took up all my headspace and I'm free from that now. So anything that doesn't allow you to be free.

Right. And the, it seems like the. Anything that you're addicted to is coping with something, covering up something that you either haven't dealt with, maybe, or numbing the pain so that you don't have to deal with it. But is that, is that almost in your experience, is that almost all the case or is that. Yeah, most of the time. But a lot of times there's a catalyst of something happening that puts you into a state which again, it probably is the same thing you're covering up. Whatever, whatever that tragedy, whatever that pain, whatever that is, because instead of feeling the pain, you numb it. Right. I mean, I would think that it's just as bad looking at your phone six hours a day and being addicted to it as something that, you know, a substance. Now a substance, obviously for your health is not going to be good. But you could argue that staring at your phone for six hours a day is the long term effect. We don't even know what the long term. But I feel like everyone's addicted to something. Like I have a very addictive personality and I'm addicted to work and I'm addicted to, I have ideas and I can't, I can't get away from it. So I just, I'm very interested in the topic because I'm very self disciplined and so I asked you like, did you white knuckle it? And I know you're big into communities and I think you're even starting. Are you starting something or do you have something?

Yeah, I have a community.

So I just wonder like when you look at your experience, you think about what you went through personally and how you didn't have that support and you, you were able to do it or you were not able to do it. So were you successful?

Yeah. So I had a friend. So the things that were different is I asked for help and then I also had a friend do it with me. A had sober with me my first year. So I had one person and then I, you know, they say your new life is going to cost you your old one. And it's true. There's a lot of barriers to wanting to quit because like we talked about like socially like my, you know, everything, everything I knew was going to change. And there's a lot of resistance to that. Right. And so relationships change and it's tough. There's a lot of grief when it comes to change. There's a lot of sadness and letting go, even when it's good for you, even when it's healthy. So it's pretty freaking brave, I would say, to take a look at your life and decide to make a change in any way. But yeah, I think addiction does affect most all of us. And the difference between a substance is the way it's chemically making you addicted physically and chemically with your brain making you addicted. And so, but, but we can all relate to that. And I don't know if there is like a normal drinking, like consuming a substance that creates addiction. You know, we call it alcohol and drugs. But, but the thing is, alcohol is a drug, you know, and in fact it has the highest harm score of all other drugs combined. But again, we have a different, we're not selling it that way in, in the marketplace. We're saying it's a great way to relax, it's a great way to connect. And who doesn't want to relax and connect? We're saying it's a Parenting tool, especially for lonely moms. Well, sign me up. I want that. And exactly what you said. Escape from pain. That would be human. We would all want that. So, you know, we might. It starts as a solution, we go to it as a solution, and it turns out to be the biggest problem. Right. It kind of, it takes over and for me, it hijacked my brain and pretty soon I didn't recognize myself anymore.

Right, right. Like you said, you know, you know, not only having the courage to walk into a new expression of your life, but you have to re identify who you are. And it's coming from a place where you don't know who you are because like you said, you didn't have time to be by yourself. Most people don't want to be by themselves. That's why they pick up their phone every two seconds, because they don't like the silence. They don't like that they need that constant connection to something else. And as long as it takes the eyes off themselves, I would imagine it's much easier to again, numb it. I'm curious, your experience as, as a, as an entrepreneur woman and dealing with other entrepreneurs and, and do you see, do you feel like it's, it runs rampant more with executives because of the stress and pressure that they're under?

Yeah. Yeah. My clients are high achieving women and so I think it can go on for longer because the signs aren't so obvious.

Right.

Plus, harder to ask for help over functioning, high achieving, perfectionist people who would see it as a weakness to want to ask for help. So it's covered up longer for sure. Yeah.

So how do people engage with you? They hire you. And are you, you're literally a coach. Are you a therapist? How do you, how do people engage with you?

Yeah, so I'm a coach. My background is in social work, which would be more the clinical side. But I operate as a coach, a professional, a certified professional recovery coach. Coaching is this beautiful process of walking people through change. And with my knowledge of neuroscience and addiction and what that looks like, I can literally hold somebody's hand, shine a flashlight on their path. You know, a jar can't read its own label, but a coach can point out to you your limited thinking, your, your, you know, some of your barriers, the things are getting in the way. So the biggest misconception I had before I became trained as a coach was I thought it was giving advice. And that's exactly not what it is. All my clients have their own answers inside of them. They know what's best for them. They just need the questions to pull that out. Right. They just need a witness to hear them repeat back to them, act as a mirror, hold them accountable, be a cheerleader, and then offer resources. Of course. So it's not a one size fits all package. I have a digital class that's. That is the first thing I did with Ditch the Drink was start this digital class where I put together everything I used my first year of sobriety, which included moving my body and getting outside, meditating and journaling and of course all these like holistic wellness things. But it was really a journey of self discovery and getting to know myself, learning how to take care of myself. These are things I wasn't taught. Right. I kind of felt like a toddler at first with my emotions because I was having a temper tantrum and I had always had a drink for a good day and had a drink for a bad day. I didn't know how to manage emotions. So it was rocky and volatile to start and clumsy with relationships as I got to know myself and learned how to emotionally regulate, how to regulate my nervous system, how to find other outlets for coping. So yeah, it's, it's. There's a digital class that everybody could take. But the one on one coaching is really customized because it's often other things like setting up boundaries, creating boundaries between your relationships to protect yourself. Right. It might be this people pleasing behaviors, you know, starting to focus on yourself instead of micromanaging everybody else, which we would want to control everybody in our life. Right. That's. We try very hard to do that, but recognizing some of those things, it might be underwhelm. Underwhelm is a huge tool of mine. And for people like me and you who are entrepreneurial or high achieving or workaholic, I definitely relate to that too. We get a buzz from, from grinding and not stopping. Right. Creating and, and taking our ideas forward. But this idea of that leads to burnout. Right. Overall, it's, it's not, it's not healthy. So, so that one on one coaching, having somebody there, plus then a community. So I do group calls, master classes. It's. Which is all kinds of personal development, you know, from grief to boundaries to creativity to sex, you know, all these new things that you're, you're learning because your whole identity is new. I mean, I identified as a party girl, so now what am I going to do without a drink in my hand? Right. Who am I?

Right. Did you have a coach when you were going through it?

No. In fact, well, I had a really bad experience With a therapist, to be honest, where I went for help and told him I was drinking too much, and she said, no, I wasn't.

Wow.

I just had anxiety. And she put me on anxiety meds and said I could keep drinking. And that turns me into a walking blackout. That's when things really started to become like, I couldn't hide it. The. The predictability of what I was drinking versus my behavior went off the rails. So.

And how did you compare a therapy, you know, that route of therapy and talk to me about aa? Because I don't really know anything about aa. You know, you only hear what you see in the media and on tv. But, like, you obviously know a lot about it. You chose. I haven't heard it yet. And you're explaining. So tell me the mindset, what your belief and the difference.

Sure. So there. I'll tell you the difference between maybe like a therapist and a coach and a sponsor from aa. So a therapist is somebody who could diagnose you. It's a. It's a clinical job, and they could diagnose you, which a coach would not do. Some therapists would, depending on their education, would prescribe meds, medications. A coach would not do that. And a lot of work in therapy is in the past, maybe reprocessing past trauma. And there's a lot of modalities to healing past. When you're with a coach, most of the past, of course, makes you who you are. But most of the work that I do is, where are you today and where do you want to be in the future? We're focused very much on the present, and the results are very clear. There's always a takeaway. There's a homework assignment. What are you going to do now? How are we going to move the needle forward 1% this week? Right. So it's taking these tangible steps towards change behavior in the current state versus something from the past. So they're different. Many of my clients use both a therapist and a coach, and some do one or the other. So it just depends. Now, a sponsor, AA is a beautiful program, and it's not one that I've used. It is one I'm familiar with. Ironically, I worked at a halfway house for criminal women through college that abused drugs and alcohol, and I would take them to their AA meetings. So I and a lot of my friends are in aa, so I have some knowledge and awareness, although it's not a program that I used myself, so I wouldn't be able to speak from that point of view. It has been historically the only thing available for people. So it's a community that would welcome anybody, opens their arms to anyone that needs support. And it's been life saving for so many people. There's, of course, critiques of it, like there are for any program and reasons why people do or don't want to join that program. It didn't feel right for me at the time. But again, I didn't want to call myself an alcoholic and I didn't want to be a person in recovery. So I didn't want to go to that group that called themselves alcoholics and people in recovery. Now I have a totally different view on that than I did when I was struggling years ago. Now I think you should have jumped into that, Heather. Like, that would have been a wonderful tool where you would meet wonderful people and it could give you a lot of support and community and really help you in the beginning. But at the time, I didn't want to do that. And since I found so many other things and there's, there's new things, you know, like, it's really growing, the sober curious movement moving away from alcohol. People questioning, like, the science and the studies are coming out that no amount of alcohol is good for you. And, you know, there used to be studies that say, oh, a little bit of red wine is good for your heart. It's proven that that's not true. And a lot of things that said it was, was paid for by big alcohol. So there's, there's, I think, a shift happening now. There are more coaches. It's a growing field. It's becoming okay to be what I would call sober curious, to have periods of time, drinking periods of time, not drinking, getting mindful, exploring, evaluating your relationship with alcohol, trying to figure out what's best for you. And that's what worked for me. And if you would have told me at my first sober experiment that I had to quit drinking and never drink again, I would probably be dying from alcohol right now. Like, that would have scared me, like I said. But to begin to explore and experiment and see for myself how much better I felt without it, that was the catalyst for change, you know.

Is the problem getting worse? Like, with everything that, the craziness going on when Covid hit and everyone's at home driving people nuts, I would imagine things got a lot worse for a lot of people at home. And just with. It just seems like things are crazy outside, you know, it's like everything is just ramping up and it goes fast, and there's just always something crazy going on and the media just exposes it and leverages it to get more entertainment out of you. Do you see in your experience for how long you've been doing this, that it's just it. There's a reason why there's more coaches now doing it. There's a reason why. And is that true? Is. Are there numbers behind this that show?

Like. Yeah, yeah. Well, women. Yeah. Women's drinking was up 40% during the pandemic. And so it's good and bad. I mean, it's. It's horrible that people were drinking so much drinking to cope, of course, but also drinking was escalating so that reaching out for help faster became necessary. So people were willing to reach out for help. And many people came because of COVID Like, I was already a drinker, and now it's really increased, and I need support. So the reaching out for help is key. And that's awesome and amazing that people are doing that. There's. There's also. The drinking has gotten so extreme that there's devices to drink in the shower. You can make your. Your purse hold a bottle of wine. And, you know, it's. It's so normalized. Drinking in the morning, drinking. You know that as humans, we all want to belong. We all want to be included. And I love to laugh and have a sense of humor. I want to laugh at something funny too, but it's not funny. It's serious, and it's dangerous. And when we're normalizing that behavior, like everyone's doing, can really lead to problems. So I like to show the sunny side of sobriety, the other side. And there is this sober movement happening. The younger kids, it's starting to maybe feel like your parents drug. And it's starting to be like alcohol might be the new cigarette, you know, where comes out that it's truly terrible for you and you don't need it, and you could be better without it. And there's other ways to have fun. There's other ways to relax. There's other ways to cope, and there's less negative consequences. Mentally, spiritually, physically, all of it.

When you have the type of experience that you have with this problem, and it's a real problem because lives shatter, Families are broken apart, and lives are taken. Right. And you see what's going on with pot being legalized everywhere, do you. The addiction of it alone, again, an addiction is an addiction. So if someone feels the way you explained it to be an interview, which was, I can't do without this. I'm planning my whole day around it, then it really doesn't matter what the substance is. You've got a root problem that you need to deal with. So I'm curious, what are your thoughts about what you see and how. How this movement is now so acceptable? So, I mean, my kids are in high school and I hear them talk. It's just. It's mind blowing. It is mind blowing. And I just, I'm curious to know what your thoughts are as a coach. And it's a there, you know, in that therapy world.

Yeah, well, I mean, and in the workplace too, because it's legal. So there's different replications of that. But I would teach their own. To each their own. For sure. We all get to make our own choices, and especially as adults, we can do what we want. But I will tell you, my first night out, I was probably four days sober and was getting some flack for not drinking. And a friend of mine offered me some pot. And it was like, for a second I thought, oh, yeah, I could just do that. Like, that sounds good, that sounds fun, that sounds harmless. And I immediately decided I'm not going to use an outside substance to jump ship on myself. And I'm not going to use an outside behavior. I'm not going to use any of these things. I'm going to live raw, unfiltered, fully alive, fully awakened, fully present for all the experiences, good and bad. Because when you numb the good, the bad, you're also numbing the good. Your full capacity for joy. So for me, no, thank you. Right. I mean, it's tempting to want to escape life a little bit at times. I get that. So I find other ways to do it. Right. I go hiking, you know, I listen to music. I have a, you know, other things to do to give me that punch that I'm looking for or that out of body experience. But drugs, alcohol, I do my best to avoid anything that would be me abandoning myself, because that's what it is to me.

Right, right. That takes a lot of courage. How would you advise CEOs, entrepreneurs, executives on dealing with this topic? In the workplace, you have a team of employees. You know that everyone goes home with something tough. Some people a lot worse. You know, I used to. I had up to about 100 employees. And I used to cringe when people would say, we're a family. Because I'm thinking, we're not a family, we're close. But you're going home to your life and I'm going home to my life. And our lives are completely different at the end of the day, you might quit, and I might have to fire you. We're not family, you know, we work together, and I was very close with all the people I worked with, and I care for them on a deep level where I knew and they let me in on a lot of the struggles they had around all this stuff. And as a CEO, you're not trained on how to. On how to deal with it in the workplace. And I don't think anyone really knows how to do it unless they've experienced something and then they had to go get coached or have someone come in to help. So how would you. What advice do you have on any level for any entrepreneur who has a team of people when it comes to this topic? I mean, what kind of advice can you give anybody?

Yeah, well, come talk to me, for sure. So, first of all, normalizing. We're not people that have a problem with alcohol or don't. Like, there's a. There's a huge spectrum. And it's not a label. You don't have to call yourself anything you don't want to, but it's an experience. We all have an. If you have. You've ever had a sip of alcohol, you have a relationship with alcohol, and you're having an experience with alcohol, and it can change over time. So maybe it wasn't a big deal in the past, and maybe you're leaning on it too much now. Maybe Covid has amped it up. Maybe a recent death has amped it up, or a diagnosis or the stress of work or whatever it is. So I think we like to think, like, there's those people over there that have a problem with it, and these people over here that don't. But there's just a spectrum of everybody who's having an experience and a relationship with alcohol. So normalizing that as a leader, if you can share any of your own experience, if you can be vulnerable enough to say, I've struggled with this or that in the past and. Or I've reached out for help and encouraging. Not that we don't struggle with things, because as humans, we do. So whether that's online shopping or working till burnout or, you know, having too much wine every night to cope, that's. It's a human experience. It's not us versus them. And people that drink too much aren't alien, and they're not weak and there's nothing wrong with them. Right. Alcohol is an addictive substance. It was there as a solution, and it perhaps has become a problem. So I Think normalizing the experience over time, normalizing struggling and normalizing asking for help. If you can be a beacon of somebody asking for help, that's key. The other thing is with coaching, the best, the most successful, the best people in the world have coaches. It's not for the bottom barrel. Like anybody who wants to improve their life, anybody who's into personal development, anyone who wants to show up as their best self has a coach. That's top leaders, top executives, top athletes, celebrities, politicians, business leaders, like all the top dogs have coaches. And it's because they're willing to do the work, to look at themselves. And so it's a beautiful thing to offer and it can really enhance your life.

It feels, that feels very different because I've been coached my entire life. That feels very different than having to seek out your services because my life's falling. Like I realize I've been hiding something. I'm not who I am. And I don't know how much either. A rock bottom hit. Someone caught me. Whatever happened, you know, usually they say a domino falls, right? You know, I always hear people talking about the domino effect. So they don't do anything because they want to hide it as long as they can. And then something happens and bam. That's the trigger that says, either the spouse says, you know, you need to go get help, or you come to your own realization and say, look, I need to get help. And I'm just thinking from a, from an entrepreneurial way of looking at things in your office, especially if you see it in other people. Like, do you address it? Do you stop having happy hours with your employees? Because you know that that's, you're, you're, you're like you're enabling it in a way. You know, it's a little scary. I used to not like doing that with my company at all, ever. And I used to see people get drunk and it just bothered me so much. And like, I just, it's hard. It's a hard thing.

Totally. So there's you, there's the gift of desperation. Sure, something terrible can happen and that could be the catalyst for reaching out for help. But also the question doesn't have to be like, is alcohol a problem for me, it can be. Would my life be better without it? Do I feel free? Am I operating at my highest capacity? And alcohol is likely holding you back from a lot. And even for me, that was self confidence. I was walking around with shame. So just removing that enough allowed me to get some confidence and build my self esteem. And that was enough for me to start my own business, get out of the jobs that weren't right for me, get into what was. So yes, it can be because of something sad or tragic or a rock bottom sort of. But the question doesn't have to be, is it bad enough that I need help? The question can be, do I want more for myself and could this help? If you are a leader of a company, so there's many things you can do. First of all, there is a certified facilitator of addiction awareness training that I love to recruit people for. Where you learn like a one hour lunch and learn, train the trainer sort of situation where it teaches you how to talk about addiction and recovery in the workplace. And I think every leader should have that, including with my HR background. I do a specific HR module where we talk about maybe you have drink, maybe you don't have open bar, maybe you have two drink tickets, maybe you have a signature drink that has an alcohol free alternative. There are, there's alcohol free beer, wine, spirit. There's so many awesome things these days. There's no reason why you can't offer something with and without alcohol. And you don't have to shine a light on the people that aren't drinking. The truth is a third of the population doesn't drink for all sorts of reasons. Recovery might be one, but it could be cultural taboo, could be religion, it could be a certain stage of motherhood, it could be medication or health or lifestyle. So you're really leaving a lot of people out. That's a third of the people you're leaving out. When you're only doing alcohol centric drinks, gifts, events, things of that nature, there's a lot of little tweaks that you can do, including reach out to a recovery coach. Normalize that, let that be normal. We all struggle sometimes, we all need some help sometimes. And here's somebody who's overcome something, she's. And helps other people overcome something. You know, what a great someone.

Do what you do without experiencing like what you've experienced.

Do you think can you be a recovery coach?

Yeah, like, yeah, about what you do. Like, I always think for leadership coaching, if you haven't been someone who's been in a position of like leading a company, like, I don't want you coaching me.

Yeah, yeah. I mean you can get trained and you know, to each their own. But personally, my clients say to me, and this is what I recommend for people to do is like find somebody who has what you want, who's been through what you're going through and has what you want. And that's, I think, a lot of the attraction that people have to me is like, oh, I'm also in the corporate world, so I know you understand that. And you ditch the drink yourself. So they talk to a therapist who's wonderful and they love but isn't familiar with alcohol, let's say, or addiction or the brain science about that.

And I would imagine at the root, that's why it's so important that you don't try to do it by yourself. Because that feeling of connection with another person is what can give you the strength and the understanding and the. And the guidance versus people who I would imagine at the beginning of trying to break a bad habit, they're doing it by themselves because they're hiding it.

Yeah, we don't want to fail. And we're scared. We're scared if we say we quit drinking. Here's the other thing. And then a week goes by and now we are drinking. Now we're going to be judged. But the truth is you get to explore. You can have periods of time drinking and periods of time not drinking. You're exploring what's going to work for you. And I think of like, when a baby's learning to walk, if it doesn't take its first step and walk down the hallway, we don't say, like, what a dumb baby. You know what? You're never going to learn to walk. Right. Like, it's. We learn by failing. We learn by trying, by doing your.

Training and your guidance and coaching. When you say explore, that's at the beginning of the process. Because obviously if you're addicted to something, you got to cut yourself off at some point, right?

Yes, yes. And there's different ways to do that. So some, some therapists might work on harm reduction, like drinking less. So I help people drink less or not at all. What happens when people work with me? They lose the desire to drink. But what might them get to come to me? Like I said, if you told me I had to quit drinking forever, that might really scare me. And the rebel in me might say, hell no. Right? But once I started drinking less, I started feeling better. Once I started to align with myself and hear my inner voice, once I saw alcohol for what it was, that it's not just the euphoric first sip feeling. It's the middle of the night panic, it's the morning shame. It's the questionable relationship I have now with my. With everybody. Right. Including myself. If I include that with all of alcohol, its negatives are starting to, you know, outweigh the positives and to truly ditch the drink and live a beautiful, happy, full life like I have, I've lost the desire to drink at all. I don't want to drink. I'm not sitting here, white knuckling, wishing I could be drinking at that holiday party. I'm thrilled with myself that I don't need it anymore. And I typically go to the party. I typically have more fun, more energy, more alignment. I'm still the best dancer in the room, you know, so it's just. I don't want it. I'm thrilled that I don't need it anymore.

The. I know our time's running out, but I have a couple more questions. So being transparent, being vulnerable and sharing your story, how much does that play in the role of therapy? Because for me, I'm a very transparent person. So I know, like, it just. I don't know. Like, I don't. I like being open and transparent. I know it builds connections, and people can appreciate it's refreshing, and most people are not. So I. I don't want to be like most people. So I hear how confidently you speak about your story. Now, granted, it's. This is your. This is your path, this is your story, and it's your business. So on top of, you know, everything you do, but with your clients, how important is it to be public or open? And how much of a difference? I mean, is it that much of a freeing feeling, like you being free to be yourself? I mean, is it that powerful?

I firmly believe stories heal, and that's why I share mine. And it's terrifying. It's still terrifying. In fact, the hardest place to do that was on LinkedIn in my professional community, right? So I didn't share with anybody except for my inner circle. In the beginning, when I was one year sober, I made a very casual Facebook post. Now I've gotten really loud and really proud and way more confident being on podcasts and this or that, sharing my story. But I always say, like, my sober muscles grew over time, right? I did little light lifting into heavy lifting, and. And your confidence grows over time. But I think sharing your story, if you're. When and if you're able, is really, really important, because, like I said, if somebody can see themselves in you and where you were and what you have, that could be the hand to hold to pull them through the muck. I think it's super valuable. And as a leader, what we were talking about in the workplace, if you can share a story, authentically you know, your employees automatically feel safe, belonging, connected. That's what's important for growth and healing in any organization or individual.

Yeah, I mean, I went through a divorce. It wasn't a bad divorce, but no divorce is good. And I shared it with my company. And I remember after I shared it and I was real close to my company and everybody and. But I was going to say, like, the power of what it does to other people and how it empowers other people and the connection that it helps build and relation. I mean, it's, it is really transformational. There's no question that on top of it being freeing for yourself to share something so personal, which is again, hard because you're putting your heart in people's hands and they can squash you and they could use it against you. And I'm sure in this, in your world, people will do that. And it's a hard thing to trust because trust is a delicate thing that can be really fragile at times. So, wow. It's very powerful. Another question I have for you is, is there anything that you can think of that you think that you believe that other. Other people think you're crazy?

Well, I will say just that this sober life is more fun. It's the biggest surprise. If it didn't happen to me, I would find that to be pretty hard to believe.

And why, why is it?

Well, as a drinker, like, my whole life, if somebody didn't drink or they were somebody who had like one drink at Christmas, I interrogated them. I couldn't believe it. Like, what do you do? What do you do for fun? And do you have friends? And what is wrong with you? Like, what do you do? I really didn't understand it because in my environment growing up, I just drank and everybody I knew drank, so I could not imagine a life without it. And I felt like if I wasn't going to drink that I would be this, like, pure, like, virgin, like a nun. Like, I might as well join the nunnery, right? Like, or something become a monk and, and be alone in the wilderness. Because what do you do? How could you have fun? And it's like, there's so much energy, there's so much fun, there's so much confidence and adventure and laughter. And you feel better. You know, you're. You're feeling better inside, outside, and connecting with people on this very raw level. And, I mean, I go on silver hiking retreats and the party starts at 7am and the music is going and we are ready to go. So I'm having The time of my life. If I wasn't having fun, I wouldn't stay sober, I guarantee you that. I feel like I put the life back in the party because I'm not dulling myself, dumbing myself down. I'm not like Weekend at Bernie's just like propped up and, you know, in the corner. It's like I'm really here to be fully alive and have this full experience. And I'm actually really grateful that my relationship with alcohol brought me here. As much as I denied, like not wanting to be an alcoholic, not wanting to have addiction, not wanting to call myself a person in recovery, that's because I had the wrong definition of recovery. If recovery means healing will, count me in because that's what I'm doing every day, you know, and, and being like a middle aged woman, I kind of feel like the first half of my life was surviving as best I could and the second half of my life is kind of undoing some of those things I did to survive the first half. Right. And it's, it's, it's just beautiful. No regrets. It is so much fun. If you're scared that you ditch the drink and you're not going to have a good time, you have to join my community because it is a good time. It's the best time ever.

So I have two more questions and then we'll talk about your community and wrap it up. One is, did you have spirituality in your life?

Yeah. Yes, always. Definitely.

Do you recommend that? Is that something that obviously every client's going to be different, but how important is that in the recovery process?

Yeah, to each their own. I like to call it Gus now, like God, universe, spirit. But it was a connection with myself and an inner knowing. And alcohol affects your intuition, judgment, decision making. So even if miracles are happening, you're. You maybe don't have awareness to see them or to receive them. So. Yeah, depending. I mean, people are part of different religions, different spiritual practices in all sorts of different ways, whether that's a meditation or just a daily devotional reading to again, to each their own. I work with people to customize what works. But yeah, alignment. And it's alignment with this inner knowing and with your higher self. And alcohol, no matter what clouds that. So removing that really strengthens that for sure.

Thank you for sharing that. And then last question I have for you is your family. So your husband and you have children?

Yeah, two teenage daughters.

So how much is the relationship changed with them? How open were you with your kids and with your husband who was Thankful when you came to him for help, was he nagging you to get help? I mean, what was the kind of the role with your family?

Yeah. So there was maybe this dynamic as me as a drinker again, an over functioner and I was maybe marching around resentful, but feeling like I was doing everything for everyone. Right. And everybody was always disappointed in me if I drink too much or if I said I was going to have a little and oops, I had a lot. And I was actually disconnected because I would want everyone to go upstairs and go to bed so I could start my drinking or so I could amp up my drinking. All right. So I could be left alone. And so it created a barrier and it created resentment in all the ways. So when I removed alcohol, well, my husband, yeah, it wasn't good for me, you know, he didn't want me to drink so much, but he didn't understand either. He wasn't trained in this and he's not my boss. I mean my whole life I'm like, you're not my father. Right. So he knew better than to tell me what to do. And again, it was kind of confusing because I was so high functioning. It wasn't so obvious that I needed help. But I asked him to not drink around me for the first week or two and like I said, he was thrilled to have direction and what to do. And he still doesn't drink around me. And I love the solidarity. And we go on vacation, we've been to a pit bull concert, we're at the Coldplay concert, we're in Mexico in the pool, having the time of our life with our teenage daughters and none of us drink. And I think it's really beautiful to show and we're having more fun than anyone around us. Right. And so I think it's been really beautiful to show my children. It changes the trajectory of the generations forwards and backwards. When I've worked on this healing myself, I get to show them something new. They, they've learned, they know everything. They're my biggest fans, you know, they follow me on social media, they're my biggest fans, my biggest support and it's been really beautiful. But you know what, they've had to change too. When I up leveled, they had to uplevel and we had some dynamics that had to change and communication that had to change. And it was a little clumsy at first, but we managed through.

Very cool. So let's end with how do people get in touch with you and what are some of the signs that people should be Thinking if they're at that first stage where they realize there's a problem, like do I need to call someone? Or they know, but they don't want to. What are those signs and how do they get in touch with you?

Yeah, so ditch the drink.com is my website. I have a free Sober Secrets guide and coaching video. I think it's for everyone. Everyone can download that if you're questioning anything and even if you're not, it's just good life advice, right? So download the Silver Secrets guide, get that little coaching video if you want a community to start to explore this. If you want to do an experiment, of course I've got that. I've got the digital class. I've got one on one coaching. You can schedule a complimentary call to learn a little bit more. Follow me on social media if you want to stay curious. Learn about, you know, the bright side of, of sobriety over here, all the fun drinks you can have. If you're a leader and you want to know what to do in the workplace, I'm happy to counsel you through that too. I've got tons of programs to offer because I partner with the International association of Professional Recovery Coaches. I recruit coaches, I recruit facilitators, and then now I've interned, my clients have become coaches and now I'm helping them start their businesses. So it's this just like beautiful full circle for me. So if you have any. And again, the question isn't how bad does it have to be? It's like, could it be better? And even in the organization, you know, are we a little sketchy with our relationship with alcohol in this organization? Are there some things that I could do to improve the health and wellness of my employees? And it doesn't mean you don't have to ditch the drink completely, right? Like I said, maybe it's a drink ticket, maybe it's an alcohol free offering. Maybe it's a few activities that alcohol is not included with. And mostly open conversation, sharing vulnerability, making it a positive thing for someone to reach out for help.

Awesome. Thank you so much, Heather. You are authentic and you are appreciated. So I want you to know I enjoyed hearing you talk and I appreciate you sharing your story. I know it's something that you're empowering a lot of people and thank God there's people like you in the world who are helping people. So thank you so much.

Thank you so much for the opportunity and the platform. Chad, I absolutely love what you're doing and I'm so honored to have been part of.

Awesome. Okay, great. Thank you so much.