Do as Hans Says.

Foreign. All good. How are you?

Good on my side. Excited to talk. I love lime.

Yeah, that's good to hear. I love your background. Where. Where are you right now?

In Guadalajara. It actually looks like an old grandma painting, but, yeah, I would maybe change, you know, the. The borders of it, but, yeah, it's a real painting. It's pretty cool.

Yeah, it's pretty cool.

Airbnb, we're in. Where. Where are you at?

Well, I'm at my place. I'm in Spain right now at Guadalajara. Let me think. Yeah, you guys speak. They speak Spanish over there, right? I'm gonna shout.

Yeah, it's in Mexico.

Exactly. Yeah. All right. Well, I moved to Spain three years ago.

You entered Spain two years ago, Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, three years ago. I'm originally from Holland. I'm Dutch, but I moved here about three years ago.

And what part of Spain are you in right now?

I'm close to Alicante. So when you look at it from the top, then you have Madrid, Barcelona, and then.

Yeah, I know. I know it because I was in Guadalupe, not Guadalajara. I was in Guatemala del Seguro, which is 30 minutes from Alicante. So.

Yeah, exactly.

I was. I was there for a month or two. And Alicante is pretty badass, to be honest. It's one of my favorite little city in Spain. We went to see, like a couple of movie. Well, you know, acting theaters, and there was a very nice play around Christmas, I think. And yeah, it's very small town. You know, small streets.

It's.

And then you. You can go up in the castle and. And have a view on the. The whole city. So very nice place.

Castle is pretty cool when. If my window would have been like 2 meters more to the left, I would be looking at the castle right now. Really? Yeah. Yeah, I really like Alicante. So I'm from Holland. It's a fairly small country show. The me. Alicante is sort of a big city, I suppose. Like, I've been to Madrid and I've been to. So for me, Madrid is huge. It's too much.

Oh, yeah. Big city.

So I like Alicante.

Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Are you just ready to. Well, it's. It's a big city. It's somewhat similar to cdmx Ciudad de Mexicola. You know, the Mexico City as we know it in English, It's. Well, there's. There's mountains around here. I'm a trail runner. I actually came here because of a Spartan race ultra that was happening but never happened. They Canceled it. So they moved it like south of Mexico City. So now we're, we're going to move there and see. Well, it's going to be the same race, just it's going to be way shorter. It's not going to be the ultra version. So long. Long story short, I' been in Guadalajara before. It's a nice city. There's a bunch of things to do. You know, like for my birthday a couple weeks ago, I went to the Lucha libre and that's pretty funny, you know, like to see Mexican wrestlers, but also, you know, people in the stands just swearing at one another and it was, it was a very fun experience. So, sure. Bunch of things to do. And also what you need to know if you ever come by here, there's the Tequila route. So there's this town called Tequila and that's where they make all the tequila. And if you don't make the tequila from there, you cannot have the appellation. So we didn't have the time. Actually, we're moving this weekend. We might go and do the tequila experience, but it's known for that and obviously there's a bunch of things to do. Last piece of info about Guadalajara is that it's a nice startup hub in Mexico. There's. There's a bunch of cool and exciting startups that are building here. So the startup, there's like two cities, maybe three that are great startup hubs in Mexico. There's Mexico City, there's Guadalajara, and I think there's Monterrey, which I've never been. She's like more north. But that, that's kind of cool, you know, because in the end that's. That's what's going to pick up the Mexican economy. Yes, they're very dependent on tourism, but also, you know, it might fend off eventually the narco problem that they have here, which, by the way, tourism are not. Tourists are not exposed to narcos, but it's just bad for the country and the economy, as you might know.

Yeah, it is one of the first things that, I mean, that comes to mind right when we think about that. So it's, I mean, it's great to hear that, you know, the startup scene and the business scene is picking up. So that's, that's super exciting. I'm glad to hear that.

Startups are gonna save the world, man. Line is gonna save the world.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And pretty cool to hear about your, your Spartan race as well. That's pretty cool.

Yeah, I've never done Spartan.

I do Like, I've done some obstacle runs, obstacle races, which they're really fun, but they're nowhere near as dense or extreme as, you know, the Ultra Runs or anything like that.

Yeah, well, I would have loved to do it, but I guess this is going to be practice. The one I'm going is 21km. It's not going to be a challenge for me as I did an Ironman last year, which is kind of intense. The Ultra was somewhat similar. Difficulties of the Ironman, you complete it in around 15 hours. But yeah, like, it's. It's a cool thing.

It's.

I mean, it's. I do it for the mental, you know, I do it for the. The mindset to. To just build me up. And it plain works. It's one of the best medicine, probably after meditation. What if you want to build your mind and achieve great things? And I'm pretty sure you all understand that as you're y'. All. You also look like an ambitious guy looking at your background. If you don't mind, we'll just jump into it because, yeah, definitely time is precious.

For me, sports is meditation as well. Whenever you're doing cardio or whenever I'm doing some individual spinning, there is always that moment where you think, I'm gonna quit. And then when you go through that, then after, it's just flipping bliss and you have all these negative thoughts and then all of a sudden it's like, blah. So that's. Yeah, yeah, definitely something I can, you know, when.21 kilometers for me would be a lot right now, but yet something that I can relate to because we all work out and have our obstacles that we get through. Right?

Yeah, exactly. I mean, you just described it. It's always the point, you know, when. When you're like, shit, this is too much and I need to stop. But the thing is, this is just your brain telling your body what to do, but the body doesn't know. The body just. Just can't keep going. It's just a goddamn brain, you know, like, it always comes and slows you down in so many ways. The body is really prehistoric. It's really hard for it to break down. Yes. Sometimes you can get injured and obviously need to stop. But, you know, I think the mind, there's. There's way more work to do on the mind than on the body. And obviously that the mind influences the body. So if you work a lot on your mind, you'll. You'll have a great body and you'll achieve incredible thing because your body is Capable of doing, you know, the, the Ultra, for example, the Spartan race Ultra. Obviously there would be a time cutoff, you know, you probably wouldn't make it. They cut off, you know, after I think, 17 or 17 hours, something like that. But theoretically, you could just go and run for 24 hours without, you know, breaking down. But I mean, it's all. And it's the same in sales, you know, like, I checked your background. You started in sales. I started in sales too. When, when you start, when you cold call. I mean, at some point you, you want to stop, but you just keep on going. You just go one more. Like, I love this quote. Just go one more. And eventually, you know, you get that meeting, you get that serotonin shot, and that's enough to, to keep you going. What? What? That.

Yeah, definitely. That's the thing, right? When you then experience that success. Yeah, that keeps you going. And that also teaches. Teaches you something for the next time. Because when you're in that exact same spot, they thinking, hey, you know what? Actually, last time I flipping did it, let's just try it again. Because I've shown myself that I can actually do it. So then you do that. You do that again. And. And I'm also really big believer of thinking in systems. So then, you know, hey, you know what? Last time it took me 50 calls. Got that meeting. Uh, let's just get 50 calls in. Like, it's. It's a binary thing. I'm going to get my 50 calls in. Yes. 100% guaranteed. And then, hey, you know what? Another meeting. And then you can start. Actually, you can start playing around that. You know what? I'm going to make time to do a hundred calls and I'm going to book two meetings. Perfect. And that's it. And yeah, once you've shown it to yourself once, then, you know, you can do it again. It's just getting to that initial success point, and that's just a matter of wanting a bed and not pretty much.

I relate a lot to the system thing. And I always tell my guys, you know, that they need to be consistent in everything. You can't, like, be consistent at work and not be consistent in your personal life. For example, when you cook or when you go to gym, for example. So nowadays I go to the gym here in Guadalajara and the systematic thing, for example. Well, for example, I, I do, I do like 30. For example, if I'm doing abs, I'm gonna do like, well, I should do 30. 30 reps. Okay. But then my brain tells me, okay, If I do three sets of, of 34, let's say then I'm gonna hit 100. And you know, it's this weird like numbers obsession. And finally like if I do 34, then why not do 35, you know, and if I'm at 35, why not 40? And then that's where you, you break the barrier and that's where greatness happens. That's when muscle breakage happen and that's where you, you bulk up, you know, and you're, you're better. And I think that that's also, you know, a brain thing. Like when you're in the flow, don't stop, you know, if you feel good, if you feel, you know, caffeinated and you have the serotonin in your brain, don't stop at 50, you know, hit a streak and go for 400. That, that's also a pretty cool advice. But I want to get in your background because I have your, your LinkedIn profile here and we're going to get to line. I want to spend a good like 15 minutes spending, to spend online and I want to talk about like your, your background here. You started in Amsterdam, which is a nice place I've been, by the way, Netherlands. You started at Imolife. Maybe you can start there and go up to Inditex and then go to Lidaroo, which is going to get interesting because that's when you kind of got into Legion. Can you tell us a bit about your background?

Yeah, definitely. So emo life that is way, way back. That was, I'm looking at it now as well because I need to remind myself a little bit. It was 2008 and it might have been even earlier when I started there, which was door to door sales, which I think is a great place to start. I was young, hungry like you. When you're young and you have the opportunity to make a lot of money, then I mean, that's very motivating. And that's also where I learned like your team and your colleagues, they make the whole thing when it comes to challenging jobs. So yeah, at times door does show stuff, but when you have really like, you have a nice team and you're motivated when you're motivating each other, that's, that's really helpful. So that did order sales. That was great. I led a team and was helping with the training of the team door sales. And you really also realized it's really important to set targets for yourself and then you take those serious and you try and hit one more door. You Try and hit that number. Not because, you know, if not then bad things. It's just something. Okay. Once you set the number, you want to get there, right? So that's where. Where I learned that I need to

ask, how is door to door in Europe? What's the difference? Because I know the door to door in Canada and U.S. i've got a bun of friends that did it, you know. And, you know, people sometimes freak out and, you know, they kind of tell you to go away or they call the police or they even pull a knife on you or. I've heard like crazy shit like that. But how is it in Europe?

Right. It really does depend, like, the kind of neighborhood that you're in, I suppose. The city, I mean. Yeah, I've had people come out with their dogs and people calling the police, especially, like elderly people, because they're not really used to it. They're not sure. There's this, you know, they hear crazy stories in the news and then there's a young guy knocking on the door, you know, asking for friends to open the door. Yeah, you have a badge and all that. But it's just, you know, I can imagine for them, scary. So they. They sometimes call police or anything. But it's. Back then it was a little bit newer because we're talking about 13, 14, 15 years ago. So it was a bit different and no one really loved it. But then again, overall, the experience was just pretty good. The things you're interrupting people, their day, you know, in. In what they've at their home. So it's a bit, you know, it's. I can imagine that some people there, they're not really too excited to see you. But from. Yeah, from just what you. What you just told me, sounds like Canada is a bit worse in their regard.

In the cold.

Yeah, that as well. I mean, I've had some cold days, don't get me wrong, in Holland can get cold as well when it's snowing. But, yeah, that was emo life. Then I went to Inditex, where I managed one of their stores in Amsterdam. I mean, in between, I mean, you know, I was getting into my 20s. You travel a bit and you do some things here and there. And so that was a lot of fun. I even played professional poker for a while, traveled the world and made some great friends and some great experiences before. Before I got into, you know, I managed their store in Amsterdam, which was great. I really learned a lot about different cultures. We worked with a team of 55, and I think there were like 30 different nationalities, something like that. So that was, that was really fun and made some really great friends there as well. But then I went into the lead generation space. I always had that urge to start my own company. And I remember when I was in, when I was still, you know, joining all the jobs, I would listen to all these podcasts of, of, you know, your, your Gary Vs. And other entrepreneurs and I was always thinking, man, this, you know, I, I knew I wanted to work with clients and help people and just really just make my own money and run a business. And at some point I just got really into cold email and really got into lead generation. And I remember sending one of my very first cold emails, which obviously was a super horrible message, but I pretty much asked like, hey, this is, is that something you're interested in? And they say, yeah. I was like, well it can be that easy. Like you send someone an email asking if they want to do business with you and they already say yes or no. So that was just super cool, super interesting. And you know how it is when you then get, you get obsessed with it and you really get, you know, you go down a rabbit hole and you start just, just really look to prove yourself. And I really got into every single bit about cold email when it comes to writing cold emails through the technical setup. I wanted to know everything. And you work with a bunch of clients, made a lot of mistakes, taking on the wrong types of clients, doing work the wrong way, making every single mistake you can imagine from burning domains to sending just horrible messages, to not knowing where to get your data to. I mean that's, that's how you learn, right? So that was a really cool experience. So I have my own lead generation agency, either as a founder, as a co founder as well at a different lead generation agency. So yeah, that was, that was definitely a great and fun experience where I learned a lot and made some great connections.

What are your top lessons for lead gen agency founders? Because you know, my experience, one of my core businesses is lead gen agency. Just like you started. What top advice would you give to us? Sure.

So I would say specialize as in you want to work with, you want to make sure that you know who you can provide the most value to and then you try to focus on that because then you also have to keep read, you don't have to keep reinventing the wheel. Right. Where for example, I used to work a lot of marketing agencies, then you know, okay, you know what, for marketing agencies there's more or less the angle I can take Then there's a type of messaging that works. There's more or less a setup that I need to use and you can replicate that and you can in a way productize your service and you can make scaling and all that. You can make it a lot easier instead of, okay, you know what, I have this type of client here, that type of client there, and then you're just all over the place. And I see that also with some companies who I'm helping out with, maybe some consulting or just casual advice is fulfillment is always the number one bottleneck and that comes from having to start from scratch for every single new client that you bring on. So if you already know and that works in different way as well, then you could say, hey, we work with marketing agencies. Then you really learn their language, you really learn how to approach them as well. So you make converting new clients for yourself a lot easier as well. Not in the least place, because you now also have some really relevant case studies. You can go to a marketing agency B and say, hey, we just helped marketing agency A who is really similar to you. We help them with these exact results and this is how we did it. And that's going to speak a lot more to them than just saying, hey, I know you're a marketing agency. We helped an app development company so that they're a little bit similar to you. So we can probably do the same for you as well. So you make things a lot easier for yourself on every single front. So that will be probably my main advice. And don't take on clients that like, you have a feeling, you know that feeling right? When you have the first conversation and they get into price a little bit and they, yeah, yeah, they don't really have their own sales team. They don't really have their own processes worked out. So maybe you bring a bunch of leads in the first two weeks and they don't know what to do with them and all that. So, yeah, it's really tempting to say, you know what, I hit 20k this month because I took on a bunch of clients. But then you're gonna lose a whole because they're, they're chasing you the more you're able to handle fulfillment and all that. So just make sure that, you know, you take your time to set up to, to do good for a couple of clients that you know what works and what doesn't for that type of client and you find more people like them pretty much. That would be probably my, my biggest takeaway if I had to do it again very Good advice.

Do you still do agency work?

No, I don't. I do some consulting with other agencies with, with agencies who are just starting out or looking to scale up. So I help them. There's. And I mean, honestly, I really like it. So I'm tempted at times. I do still get some people asking me that question, like, hey, we worked together in the past. Do you still work? Could you still do this for me? Could you still do that for me? And I'm tempted at times. But no, I'm 100% all in online right now. And yeah, who knows? I've been toying with the idea of doing a bit of a challenge saying, okay, you know, with line, let's see how fast we can help clients to scale an agency. So, like, who knows? But right now, no, I don't do

any agency that work because, you know, like, I am a strong believer in the SaaS model too. But do you think that, you know, the agency model would take too much of your time or did you, for example, not succeed in having an agency run on autopilot that could not take your time? Why not do both? And that's my first question. The second is, is the SaaS model enough to pay the bills in the end or did you have, for example, savings? Because I understand that the SaaS model is very lucrative and it's on autopilot. You know, it's a software, it's replicable. I won't get in the Andrew scene Horiz thing, that software is eating the world and all that, but it's a great model. What do you have to say on the agency via SaaS model here?

Yes. So initially when you started with an agency, yeah, definitely would take a lot because now after a while with the agency, we had most of those processes worked out. So a lot of that would either work on autopilot or you would have the right people in the right place who could help you do fulfillment and all that. So when it comes to cash flow, yeah, agencies and agency model definitely is great. Then again, it's. I, I mean, burned out is a huge. Is, is a big term, big word. I wasn't burned out, but in our space, and I'm sure that's something that, that you notice as well. You don't very often work with clients for a year, two years. Even when you're doing good. Like clients, they either, you know, things change or it can be tricky to really stick with clients for a longer time. Insurance is fairly high. So that makes it that, you know that there's A lot of onboarding with new clients, and yet you can make that a really seamless process. But it's just, it's tiring, not gonna lie. Something that, where I think, you know what, the SaaS model that we're operating on currently line is doing phenomenally well. So I'm super excited about that. And I'm also, I tend like, I'm. When you're an entrepreneur, you see a lot of things that you want to take on, right? You're seeing this opportunity here. You're thinking, heck, man, I can help this client.

Yeah.

And I can run that and I can do that project and I have a list of 10 other things that I want to do. And then it's that I've done in the past. But now that I'm focused on one thing, I can see, you know what I'm focusing on this one thing is going really well. All the things that I've done in the past, they've gone okay. So apparently I should focus on one thing. Like, you cannot really argue against that evidence. Right. So I'm all in on that right now. But then again in the future, who knows? Like, once line is running and you know, you have your team builds out there and things are going great, it could be that there are other things that all that will get like 20% of my focus, for example.

Yeah, for sure. Well, first burnout is real, you know, like tough clients. So like you said, avoid these like they are the plague. Then the second thing here, I mean, any type of agencies. I've tried a bunch of agencies, you know, Facebook ads, adwords, websites. Well, websites are a bit different because it's, you know, it's one and done most of the time. But yeah, people churn a lot, you know, because the price is high. I think that's the main reason. And yes, software can be a bit lower. How I view it though, how an agency can be a cool part of an ecosystem. My goal in life is to build the greatest startup ecosystem in the world is that the agency can be the R and D part and give you data. Although if inline you have access to all the campaigns and you can get good data there, but never as good as talking to a human, for example, and listening to him and seeing what software he uses and stuff. I think the agency can be a cool R and D part and can help the SaaS for sure. But I want to go on with your experience because we only got like five minutes left. Just leads.

I have more time. So if I don't know about your schedule, but we can.

Yeah, I have a hard stop because I have sales calls afterward, but I'd like to reinvite you anyway because there's so much to say there. But I saw just Leads. That's interesting because it was like four months. Can you tell us a bit more about that one?

Yeah, definitely. So just leads. They're a Dutch agency, lead generation agency, and they reached out for me to help them with the whole setting of the processes. So they were starting out to younger guys, super ambitious, super hardworking. And so I helped them with setting up the processes, onboarding clients, making sure that, you know, there was the right technology in place and setting up new technology and just providing with a bit of a Kickstarter, I suppose. So there was, you know, like a consulting type type thing that for them. So that's when I was a bit shorter. Might actually go back to helping them. I still have contact with them and they're just really fun to work with. It's just always really cool to work with super hardworking, bright, ambitious people. And it's been inspiring for me personally. So, yeah, like, it's a good reminder. I need to reach out to them actually.

And what about GrowBots? That's an interesting one too.

Yeah, I've had my last week there. A couple weeks ago, GrowBots was head of marketing there for about eight, nine months. Yeah. Yeah, that was definitely interesting. As a super. I'm a big fan of the entire space of the sales enablement, sales automation space, however you want to call it. And they had a really great opportunity as the head of marketing and I've been a fan of robots for a while. It was one of the first tools that I used when I started with cold email. When I saw that opportunity, I was just super excited and they were excited to bring me on. So that was a great experience as well. We learned a lot there. We did some really cool things in, in. In, you know, in the space and creating content. And I got to meet the team, they have a great team in place and they have some really cool visions on, you know, how they can actually combine software with a bit of an agency model as well. So I think you and the CEO, you really hit it off because I think your visions are really well aligned. That was great. But while I was working there, line was something that we worked on part time in the weekends and the evenings and it really took off. And I know as it took off as hard as it did, as well as it did, it just made a lot more sense to focus on that full time. And that's why I left Robots a few weeks ago, actually.

Okay, okay, you know what? Like, I want to stop there so that we record it like in kind of two pieces the second. And I mean, we could spend a good 30 minutes just talking about line. You know, put it together and that would be an hour podcast. What do you think?

Yeah, sure, that works for me.

I think.

Yeah, that makes sense to stop it there and then we can pretty naturally transition that into line.

You have more time today or with tomorrow, for example? Because today, I mean, after this sales call, which is 15 minutes, you know, like I have time. Not sure if it's good for you. Or tomorrow I have time to.

Let me check really quick. Yeah, tomorrow I won't call at 5 my time, which is 30 minutes ago. So same time that we had a call today, I have one call tomorrow. All on that because we're launching new website. I'm working on that a bit, so I've kept my schedule clear. But yeah, we can schedule for 30, 45 minutes, no problem.

Okay, tomorrow I have something at 12:30. Let me just put Spain time here. 12:30pm EST Spain time. So right now. 05. So yeah, we have a good like 7 hour 30 difference. I mean, it's Friday tomorrow. Do you still have time at like 6:30pm?

What time? Sure, you're cut off there.

6:30pm tomorrow at your time. Would you be good?

Yeah, yeah, I think that works. Like we might have something, something with a new house. But let's schedule for 6:30 and if something comes up, I'll make sure Lakey Noise time.

Okay, so I sent you the invite and yeah, it's going to be fun to talk about line. Let's devote a good 30 minutes to it. And yeah, let's talk tomorrow, man.

Yeah, I love talking about line.

All right, thanks, Ant.

Yeah, thanks for your time, man. Good luck with.