Wayne Penello - Founder & CEO NextGenEMP

Welcome to another CEO Wisdom podcast. We have Wayne Pinello with us today. Wayne is a founder, president, CEO at NextGen EMP. He's the president of Innova Management as well as a board advisor, Aegis Edging Solutions, Forbes books author, is a speaker, patent holder, and all about risk management in Houston, Texas on his ranch, I believe. Wayne, welcome to the podcast. Tell us a bit more about yourself.

Well, I mean, I'm just the guy that— thank you for having me on the show to begin with. It's an honor to be here, and I just like to keep busy. It's, uh, and I like working on projects that ultimately create value, and by creating value, you help people.

There you go. You had a long career already. You were, uh, successful. Let's start with that. So you were a trader, you won Wall Street for quite some time, right?

Yeah, it was an interesting opportunity. As your viewers may know, I'm a little bit old for your typical CEO. I'm 72. And so I was in graduate school. And at the time that the Bunk— the Hunt brothers, Nelson and Hunter Bunk, were— I've got the names wrong. But anyway, they were busy trying to corner the silver market. And I happened to invest in gold and silver in 1979. I doubled my money in 4 months and was smart enough to get my money out just before the market crashed. And I said, wow, this is easy. I like this. This is way better than doing research science for a living. So, I shifted gears and decided to investigate trading commodities and shortly thereafter became a floor trader on the New York Mercantile Exchange, just as the energy market was taking off. And so, started out in heating oil. I immediately went over to trade options. As soon as those were available, I was ring chairman of options and head of the settlement committee. So, it's options just— I grew up playing cards. And when you play cards, you have to take in a lot of information and keep it balanced. And trading is a lot like that. And in fact, most of the floor traders that were successful were very good card players. I did that for 10 years until— and it wasn't for lack of making money, but I'm not that big a guy. I was only 5'9" and they kept bringing down these AAA athletes who were 6'4", 6'6". Can you imagine a guy my size trying to play on a basketball court? I'm just going to get beat up every day. I was convinced I could transfer my skill sets from the trading floor to upstairs. That was a big shift because— and this is important to your listeners, because as a floor trader, you have a huge advantage. You get to buy the bid and you get to sell the offer. And if you do that frequently enough, and in the meantime, keep your book balanced enough so that when the market makes a big move, you get to keep the vig. And I would say, in the 10 years I was a floor trader, I might have had one losing month. And I typically had 3 or 4 losing weeks a year. So, it's the edge that you have as being a market maker is significant. Moving to upstairs, you don't have that edge anymore. And you have to identify new edges. Because if you don't know what you're doing, as Warren Buffett said, if you don't know who the mullet is at the poker table, you're the mullet. So, my career path has been a matter of staying involved in the markets, which I find very exciting. But becoming innovative and creative and finding new opportunities to take advantage of the value that others might be overlooking.

And what was the— what was the shift in your career? You've made it on Wall Street, right? Like, at what point did you pivot into doing something else, right? Because most traders I speak to either get very rich— minority, actually— or most actually burn out, right? So, uh, How was the pivot on your side? When did you actually stop being a trader?

Well, I don't know that I've ever actually stopped being a trader, but I want to address something that you said. So, when you look at traders, you're already looking at a sample set that 95% of the people that try to be traders fail. I mean, in the first year, they just— it's a very difficult way to make a living. And the main reason is you have to make hundreds of decisions every day, and you have to be willing to override any decision you've immediately made. And people tend to hang on to the pieces of information that they had. So, my goal when I left the floor was to try to figure out a way— my real edge was that I understood options trading and options were new to everybody. So, I started helping oil companies hedge their oil and gas production. And as I was doing this for companies, I saw the systematic mistakes that they were typically making. And so, I engineered, if you will, we'd call it today an algorithm, but I engineered an algorithm that converted commodity price risk into budgetary terms, whether it be free cash flow or debt-to-EBITDA ratios. And when you could explain to the finance officers of the firm that, listen, you have a 95% confidence that you will achieve your budgetary benchmarks, provided you hedge 10%, 20%, 30% of your business. If you don't do that, all bets are off. When they realize that they could be surgical in how much they hedge to give them a very high probability of success, and that they had a feedback loop that told them when they needed to adjust the position, That became a very successful business. So I had that business for 20 years. Forbes asked me to write the book that's over my shoulder, Risk Is an Asset, that I co-authored with my partner at the time, Andy Furman. And it was a great business. Our clients following the algorithm's information were paid over $13 billion. That's with a B, billion dollars for hedging. That's bottom line receivables. And then about 6 years ago, one of my competitors bought me out. Aegis Hedging Solutions. And, um, I decided to shift gears once again and transfer the skill set of risk management from commodities to equities.

Interesting. And yeah, sounds too good to be true, like the returns, right? Like, uh, if you've built something that great, why not just use it yourself? Like, uh, tell me a bit more about that.

So as a floor trader If I knew as a 30-year-old what I knew when I was 40 years old, I would have made a lot more money. I didn't fully appreciate the advantage, the edge that I had in the marketplace. And so I was making $400,000 or $500,000 a year, and that's in the 1980s. But that's a fraction of what I could have made if I understood the magnitude of the opportunity and taken more risks than I did. And so that led me to looking at risk differently and saying, okay, if I have one of these opportunities again, what am I going to do next time? And so you always have to look at the risk-reward balance to figure out, you know, how can I take advantage of this opportunity but know I'm going to be in business next year? It's not good enough to think this is great. And this is why so many Independent or individual investors do poorly because they see a great opportunity, they buy this company or that company, and maybe they catch it right on the way in, but they stay in too long. They don't know when to get out of the position, and they certainly pick some bad companies, and they don't know how to balance the risk across a portfolio of companies because it's not what they're trained to do. It's not their area of expertise. It's a highly developed skill set that's learned over years of— I mean, I've been trading at this point for 40 years. You know, you learn something in 40 years, trust me. I mean, that is if you're still standing.

So if I invest in you, right, so you're publicly listed, so I can just invest in your company. What am I investing in actually?

So what I decided to do, I've run a hedge fund before, which is only for qualified investors. But what I wanted to do in my semi-retirement is provide an institutional quality risk-managed product to the everyday investor. And so, rather than launch it as a "hedge fund," I launched it on the New York Stock Exchange as an exchange-traded fund. Now, as it turns out, there's lots of tax efficiencies that are available to the individual for doing that. We'll get into that maybe a little bit later. But the product I launched, which the The name of it is Efficient Market Portfolio Balance. The symbol is extra mushy peanut butter, EMPB. It's in Wall Street, you know, Echo Mike Papa Bravo, but everybody remembers extra mushy peanut butter. And if you're on an open-source platform like a Charles Schwab or any of these other trading companies, you just type in the symbol, I'd like to buy Echo Mike Papa Bravo. And you'll see today we settled at about $33.05 a share. We launched it in December '24, so it's about a year and a half ago. We launched it at $25 a share. We're up about 33%, including dividends since launch, which generates a rate of return. We generated a 20% compounded rate of return since launch. But more importantly, during that period of time, You remember in the spring of 2024, the S&P at one point was down 21%, scares everybody to death. We were down 7%. This is a product that tries with the use of a long-short portfolio to control the drawdowns so that people primarily don't get shaken out of their positions. But secondarily, when I look at my portfolio, the way I would describe it is You have a 95% confidence that you will never be down 10% from a statistical perspective. If you look at the S&P 500, you have a 95% confidence you won't be down 25%. 25% scares everybody to death. Nobody wants to lose 25% of their money. So, what does Wall Street do? They don't manage the risk, they diversify it away. And they say, okay, we're going to do 60% stocks, and 40% bonds. And if you do that, now your 95% confidence is that you won't be down 15%. But now you're getting equity returns, let's just call that 10% on 60% of your money. And you're getting bond returns, let's call that 4% on the rest of your money. So, you're only getting about 7.5% returns. This fund, if you have the conviction that I have, and I'm not suggesting that that's where you start or that you should, but if you have the conviction that I have, 100% of your money can be in EMPB, have less risk than a 60/40 bond split, and now you're getting equity-style returns on 100% of your money. You're getting 10%, 12% on everything. This is a product that if you can only save $100 a month,— or better yet, you only have $100 to invest, go to one of these firms, open up an account with $100, and watch how your money grows with a professionally managed institutional quality product. And if it works for you, then maybe at some point you'll add more money to it. But now the everyday workers, you know, kids straight out of college that maybe can save $200 a month, or the blue-collar workers in your home that clean your home, fix your plumbing, do your landscaping, this product is available to everybody. Instead of just being available to people that have hundreds of thousands of dollars that the, that the financial planner or investment advisor can make money on.

And why isn't everyone investing in this if it's that good? And what's the difference between this and like normal ETFs?

So From a structural perspective, there isn't anything different between this ETF and other ETFs. So let's talk about the difference between a stock, right? Because the New York Stock Exchange has hundreds of stocks on it. The S&P 500 roughly has 500 stocks. So if you have insight and you think, well, I'm willing to ride the roller coaster ride of a Tesla or Nvidia, yeah, you can go buy that., and you should take the responsibility for watching it and managing it. And I would argue that before you spend a dime, you take the responsibility for understanding what the drawdowns might look like. That is, over time, this market is going to pull back from some high price. And is that pullback 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%? If it's a stock market, the S&P 500, which is a basket of 500 stocks, that number's going to be about 25%. If it's NVIDIA, that number's going to be closer to 50%. And if it's Tesla, that number could be 70%. So who wants to invest $1,000 and then find out 6 months later you only have $300 left? And everyone's going to say, oh, just sit there, it'll come back. And it probably will, but who knows how long it'll be? Instead, when you buy an ETF, and ETFs are the most powerful tool for the individual investors, whether or not you invest in mine, What you want to understand is take a passive ETF like the S&P 500. I know it's passive, but the first thing it's got going for it is that innovation, inflation, and increased population are going to drive the stock market up. So, already, you've got a bucket, a basket of 500 companies that have— each of them has a tailwind of innovation, inflation, and increased population. That's in your favor. That's why buy, hold, and hope works. Now, in an ETF package, the first benefit is that every quarter, the trustees of the S&P 500 look at the portfolio and they say to themselves, which are the laggards in this market? Which of these companies really don't deserve to be in here anymore? And they drop those out and they bring in a new company. And And last year, they swapped out 10 companies over the 4 quarters. To help you understand how important this is, is that in 2001, a company in the United States went bankrupt and they dropped it out of the S&P 500. Most of you may remember it. It was called Enron. If you're from Texas, you're intimately familiar with it. But Enron went bankrupt. They dropped it out of the S&P 500. They replaced it with a little-known company out of California, Intel, now known as NVIDIA, that since they put it in the S&P 500, it's up 46,000%. So think about that for a second. You take a portfolio with 500 companies and you drop one that's going nowhere. And let's just say it doesn't go bankrupt, it just goes sideways. And all of a sudden you replace it with a company that rallies over the next 25 years, it rallies 46,000%. That's, that's what passive funds do. So an individual owning an exchange-traded fund gets the benefit of the fact that you have some of Wall Street's best and brightest fund managers looking over that fund to make sure that it performs really well, because that's how they get paid. And, and it's a great opportunity for you to take— tap into that person's expertise at a very minimal cost. It's a large portfolio, so it's diversified. And, and you can specify, listen, I only want to be in the semiconductor I want to be oil and gas or finance or healthcare. They have subsets of these, but they're all managed the same way. So, it's very powerful. The other thing that investors want to know real quick is that when they rebalance in an ETF, that is not a taxable event to the investor. So, when you buy an ETF, your holding period is determined by when you bought and sold it. And so, it makes it very easy to get long-term capital gains treatment, which cuts your taxes in half in most cases.

Right. Um, why the decision to go public and not just be a simple hedge fund? Why, why that decision?

Well, again, I've had a lot of success in my life and sat down with my partners as we were developing this, and we had to choose between doing this as a hedge fund where we could only share it with qualified investors or to bring it to the general public. And it was our decision to bring it to the general public because we still get to invest in it. I'm one of the biggest investors in the fund, so are my partners. But now it's available to everybody. Now, if we get this right— now, if I run a hedge fund and my last fund, we got up to about $200 million, that's a really good living because you're making 2 and 20 on that. We only We only charge a 1% management fee. But this market, the potential for this market is that there are 140 million American households with retirement accounts in them, but the median value of those accounts is less than $90,000. So there isn't an IRA, a registered investment advisor, or a private equity guy that wants to touch that account because how, how can I make any money on a $90,000 account? You know, I'd like to help you, but I don't have enough time to make any money on an account that small. So, this product is available to all of the universe's small investors. It's available to all investors, big and small alike. But our goal is, one, to manage our money well, which I'm very happy to have a compounded rate of return of 20% with a Sharpe ratio of 2.2. And if I can do that and make this available to, to millions of people in the United States that nobody else is helping. This ultimately could be a phenomenal success, not just for me personally, but, but for individual investors across the country.

And you mentioned that this technique was used by Nobel Prize winner in 1975. Wouldn't that scare some people away? I know that markets are cyclical, but are markets that predictable in which you can be like, oh, down, down market and predict predictable patterns.

So, um, I, I do need to clarify what you just said, which is in 1949, a fellow by the name of Alfred Winslow Jones, who did not get a Nobel Prize, started the first hedge fund, what became known as a hedge fund. And over his 35-year career, after charging 2% management fee and 20% of profits for his services, his clients were paid a compounded rate of return of 23% a year. He had 3 losing years in 35 years. In the mid-'60s, and I believe it was in Finance magazine, but that I'd have to double-check, his success was published. And then we had all of these copycat companies that started doing their own version of long-short funds that Alfred Inslow Jones would go into an industry and buy the companies he thought were strongest and then hedge the market risk by selling the companies he thought were the weakest. So, people have been doing this now for 75 years as professionals have been doing for 75 years. Today, it's an active program that private equity funds offer to endowments and nonprofits. Why? Because one, they're still collecting 2 and 20, they're getting paid a lot of money to do it. But two, a nonprofit isn't worried about the tax implications of rebalancing the portfolio. Individual investors, it hasn't been offered to them or made attractive to them because they didn't have the benefit of being a non-for-profit organization. The ETF wrapper is what made this possible to bring it to the individual investor. Now, they can own a long-short fund. You can even own it in your retirement account because it's net long. And when the portfolio rebalances, it's not a taxable event to you.

Interesting. At 72, most folks, uh, your age or with your levels of success would just retire. Like, why still be in action? Why is, is retired— retirement even in your vocabulary? Or no? I mean, you like the game too much.

Some people like to do crossword puzzles, some people like to play golf. You know, you play golf, I like to make money. Yeah, I like to make money, but I play a lot of golf. At the end of the year, what I've got is a bunch of scorecards with numbers on it, right? That's very different than having a bank account that's 20% bigger or 25% bigger than it was the year before, because then I can look around the world and say, in my community, which charities need help? You know, which children in my family, who do I want to help? Money allows you to solve a lot of problems. And if I can help people make more money so they can solve their problems, everybody wins.

I love that. So, what does a day in your life look like nowadays? You manage a publicly traded company. It's what, 10 hours a day? What do you do the rest of your day?

It's way easier than that. So, I'm married to a wonderful woman. We've been together 30 years. We get up in the morning early. We live on a ranch in between Austin and Houston. And we have this window area that's all glass. And we look out over our ranch. And we have coffee, and we do a couple of mental exercise puzzles together in the morning to interact and to do math puzzles and word puzzles. And then at about 8 o'clock in the morning, I come upstairs to where the office is. You're looking at a piece of it here. This room has 360-degree windows with just all we have around us is wildlife. And I have my exercise room here. So, I work out, and then I sit down at the desk. The market opens up at 8:30. Keep track of what's going on, handle a few emails. And the activity in managing the fund, because we rebalance monthly, is not that high. But the day-to-day operations of dealing with compliance and advertising, I probably put in 4 or 5 hours a day at that. But I have a lot of flexibility around the timing. I don't need to be here, generally speaking, at any specific time. So, you know, I get to work on my favorite kind of puzzles, like So today, as it happens, is our 400th trading day. So it's our 400th anniversary of trading days, right? And so I went back and looked, and if you look at the S&P 500, the daily returns of the S&P 500 over the last 400 days, if you missed— and the S&P is up about 20% since we launched on December 12th, 2024. If you missed the best 5 days of the S&P, you would lose money. Think about that. 400 trading days, and if you were not in the market those best 5 days, you lost money. That's amazing, right? But that's trading. And in our particular fund, if you miss the best 25 days, then you lost money. So, it takes— it's an interesting dynamic around how do I manage risk and how do I capture returns? And to me, that's one of the most fascinating puzzles. And to be able to offer it to everyday investors by just saying, listen, we settled at $33.05 tonight, you got $34, go ahead, get long, try it, see how it fits. If you like it— and generally speaking, I would recommend that anything you're going to do, you have to make at least a 6-month commitment to. But Maybe keep some dry powder because every market pulls back. Just last week, we had a pretty nasty pullback. We reached a high of 3340 and the market dipped intraday to 3230 or so. I use that as a buying opportunity and we used it as a buying opportunity for our clients. And you just have to think about strategically, what do I want to own? And then tactically, when do I want to buy it? And separate those two things. That's where most investors get it wrong. They decide they're going to buy it and they buy it instead of thinking, okay, I want to buy it, but do I buy it all now? Or do I start out with a little dry, buy a little bit and keep some dry powder? Because if I get a 5% or 10% pullback, I want to buy more. And you should always have a plan that if it goes up, I'll do this. And if it goes down, I'll do that. You should always have a plan for what you're going to do next based on price and time. And that's where most people— most people only think about investing in terms of time, not price and time. So, you know, like some people, I'm going to buy at the end of every month. All right. Okay. You could start out with that. But if at the end of the month it's higher than it was last month, don't buy all of it, buy some of it. Or if during the middle of the month it winds up being 2%, 3%, 4%, 5% cheaper than it was where you bought it last month, Just buy that, buy it when it's cheap. So, give yourself the chance to participate in low prices.

How would you improve the stock market, or is it already pretty amazing as it is today?

The stock market is— I think it's absolutely fabulous. And I didn't fully appreciate it in all my years in commodity trading. But let me say, if you look at the long-term returns, of gold or silver or the European market or the Japanese market, there isn't any market that is stronger than the United States market. That doesn't mean that in any quarter or maybe this year, like last year, the European market outperformed the US market, but it outperformed it not because the market was— the businesses were stronger, it outperformed because the dollar was so weak. If I mean, I personally am not a big fan of diversifying into these other areas, but that's because I'm a professional that knows how to manage the risk. If you don't know how to manage the risk, then the best you got is to diversify the risk away. And then you should consider these other asset classes, but you have to decide what path you want to go down.

So your investments, it's mostly the stock market. You don't invest like in real estate or startups, for example.

Everybody in the United States should own your own home. But if you can't afford the down payment to buy your own home, then you need to be in the stock market. And you need to be in the stock market in a way that lets you get long-term capital gains treatment. Now, I made a lot of money. I would argue at least 40% of my net worth was made on real estate investments. But real estate investments are not liquid. And the slippage in transactional costs is huge. And then there's also the maintenance cost. But I had a townhome in Houston that we sold when we moved out to the ranch full-time. And I was really pissed after 25 years, a townhome we bought for $350,000, we sold for $700,000. And then I had to pay a real estate commission of $35,000. So now I got $665,000. So I made $300,000 on it. And if you do the math on that, that was something like— when you do the math wrong, that was something like a 3% compounded rate of return, barely kept up with inflation. But I only put 20% down. So my original investment was only $70,000. And now, I'm getting, let's just say, $670 back. And you have to make the assumption that I was going to live someplace anyway. So, whether I pay my rent to myself because I live in the house that I own, or I pay the rent to a landlord because I live in the house that he owns, that money is— you just got to pay that money. So, don't include that in the economics because it distorts it. But when you realize that I only put 20% down, we got a 15% compounded rate of return. On that, on that house over 25 years. And that's, that's a great investment. So now, now over that, um, some people have the, the skill sets to manage rental properties, which I do, and I did manage rental properties. But there's a lot of sweat equity in that, that when people get around to selling it, they don't, they don't necessarily calculate that into the formula. But I think that's a, you know, if, if that's what you're good at and you want to do it I mean, I know a young couple, they own 15 different rental properties and they're all paying for themselves and they all have 15-year mortgages. So, before you know it, they're going to have several million dollars that's completely paid for and they're going to pay long-term capital gains on that. And so, it's a good deal, right? So, these are good areas. But when you get into the finance world, like these special offerings, we've got these collared investments in the S&P that you can— We'll buffer you against the first 10% loss, but we're going to cap your gain at 15%. By the time that investment gets to you, the big banks have taken their 2% or 3%, the distributor's taken their 2% or 3%, and the guy you just bought it from has taken his 2% or 3%. So, you're leaving at least 6% on the table with that instrument. And if you were financially trained, you'd know how to build it yourself, but you're not. So, you can't. And so, you don't really have a choice. And that's why I think my product is so powerful, because I'm taking all that nonsense out of this. We show you that we charge a 1% fee. It's actually— it's even better than that because we're a long-short fund, we earn interest on the cash that collateralizes the short positions. We earn over 1.5% a year interest on that. That interest is paying all my fees. It's such an incredible package. My biggest challenge, just so your audience, when you go to our website, which if you don't mind, I'll mention it, it's www.nextgenemp.com. You'll see that the SEC requires us to report our expense ratio is 2.21%. But if you dig into it, it's— that's a fictitious number. It doesn't make any sense at all. And I won't bother to explain it here, but they have their rules and you have to follow their rules.

Before I let you go, I just have a couple of questions for you. If you look at some of your peers, right, like you're 72, you look good, like you've— you work out, right? But I'm pretty sure it's more than that to your longevity, not only like physically, but like at work. I'm pretty sure a bunch of your peers burned out because they don't have like stress management mechanism. How do you do it?

My, my studies on stress management, um, have drawn—

come—

I've come to the conclusion that challenges are not stressful. Not being in a position to manage your challenges, that's stressful. When you're out of control, that's stressful. And, and so I've always chosen a path where I, I retain control. And, um, and I, I also get to do things that I really love to do. So it's just, I get up excited every day about taking on the challenges. I mean, I can't tell you, um, I, I, I, I keep a notepad in the next room, not next to the bed because I'd wake my wife when I turn on the light, to write down my, the ideas I get in the middle of the night. But I still keep a notepad in the next room so when I get a brainstorm in the middle of the night, I write it down and then I know I won't forget it and I can use that tomorrow. And so I think the big thing for longevity, I mean, obviously, you have to take care of your health. If you're not moving, you're dying. You have to eat well. You don't need to be fanatical about it. I mean, there's some of the— really great minds of the world like Winston Churchill, you drank a ton of bourbon every night, right? You know, it's just, yeah, I mean, I don't know what your solution is and, you know, I'm just working on mine and I'm hoping I get it right. But it's so long as you take care of yourself and then you're focused on being productive and being productive in things that excite you, I think that's gonna give you a ton of energy to keep going forward. And by the way, for your viewers, my partner is 10 years younger than me, and we have a continuity plan behind that. So don't— if you invest in me, don't worry that I'm not going to be available tomorrow to keep managing the fund. We got that covered.

Interesting. Last question: what do you foresee for the future? Your partner is 10 years younger, but you probably have like grandkids, right? Like, do you see a better economic world for them, or are we effed?

So, um, let's, let's talk 5 years first off. Yeah, I, I think 5— in the next 5 years, we are likely to have the greatest economic growth spurt the United States has ever seen, and it's all going to be driven by AI. AI is the most phenomenal innovation that the world has ever seen. And to put this in perspective, No, nobody ever asked, you know, we all know the stock market crashed in 1929, but no, nobody ever asked what caused the bubble that allowed a crash to happen, right? And that bubble was electricity. Between 1918 and 1929, a fellow by the name of Alfred Loomis and his partner connected electricity between all the cities east of the Mississippi. And so all of a sudden, these manufacturing facilities that were using horsepower or water power We're using electricity and producing 10 times as much product. And the productivity was astounding. And everybody thought this was going to be the biggest boom, which it was for years and years. People were making money until we got to a point where we were producing more product than there was demand in consumption. That's close. So I think—

5 years? 10 years?

So 5 years, I think, so long as people are talking about how they use AI and not which AI companies to buy, I think you're safe. When they start telling you which companies to buy, then get nervous. Longer than that, then you really have to, have to look at this new attempt to bring socialism to the United States. And, and it's a, it's a real force. And, you know, the— when you see how Congress votes, whether or not you lean towards one side or the other, it's a completely dysfunctional government at this point. And there are anarchists that would rather see the United States get destroyed than allow it to persist. So we'll just have to see what happens over the next 10 years politically to see if we can, you know, right, right the ship and return America to the values and the systems that, that made it one of the greatest countries, if not the greatest country ever to exist.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Thank you, Wayne, for being on. Where can people find out more about you?

If you go to my website, www.nextgenemp.com, and, and, uh, just there's a— some of the information I mentioned tonight about our funds is there, but my contact information is there. Do yourself a favor, if you really want to talk to me, either email me or text me. Because I get lots of phone calls, and if I don't know the number, I don't answer it. But if you text me, and, um, I'll get back to you.

I was Wayne and Charles for another