How to Get a Cookbook Deal as a Food Writer with Dianne Jacob | The Food Blogger Pro Podcast

So as you work with people, do you see that shift starting to take place or is it still possible to like, on the, let's say, on the cookbook side of things, hey, you can grow an audience, you can get a following, you can get a really good cookbook deal. Or are you seeing like, hey, these are people who have maybe had to. You kind of have to serve 5, 6 years of hustle and content creation and audience building before you can get to the point where you can justifiably go to a publisher and say, hey, you should pay me to create a cookbook.

You do have to put in the time, because publishers want, they want someone with a platform most of the time and they want someone who knows what they're doing as a recipe writer also who's not doing the same thing that everybody can find for free online by doing a Google search.

And that the thing that they're doing is building an audience, essentially.

Building an audience, not just building an audience. Because I think that it's harder for the general food, general food blogger to get a cookbook deal because if they're just doing like American comfort food, there's so much of that available online for free. It's like, what are you doing that could create a cookbook that people are willing to pay $35 for? So I don't think it's just about the audience. You have to be doing something with the recipes that gets the attention of the agent or the editor.

Interesting. And that would be with your platform as a whole. Are you seeing. With your platform?

Yeah.

And your view are the sugar free or reduced sugar person or like you are the keto person or so you're getting specific in who you're serving and creating content for.

I think it's harder for all the people who are like, I love food and don't really want to make their blogs about anything in particular. Just.

Yep.

I think that's. It's harder to get a book deal in those situations. What you could get in those situations is I was, I was actually in a store recently, which was new for me.

Yes. And all of these strange new things that are happening.

Right.

I was giving my parents a hug and. And so you're going into a store?

Yeah, I went into a store and it was one of those like super curated stores like Anthropologie and they had all these books that all had a similar theme. And it seemed to me that all these books, maybe the publisher had had the idea for the book and then they found a blogger and said hey, do you want to do this book? So there was one called Moon Milk. Easy Recipes for Peaceful Sleep. And there was Sunday Suppers. Go to Recipes for a Special Weekend Meal. Foil packed dinners. 100 delicious quick prep Recipes for the Grill and Oven Summer A Cookbook Inspired Recipes for Lazy days and Magical Nights and lemons and limes. 75 bright and zesty ways to Enjoy Cooking with citrus. So.

So it's almost like these are publishers coming to creators who they know can do recipe development, photography and saying, we have an idea. And this actually happened. I remember early days, it happens all the time where somebody reached out to us and they were like, hey, we really want to do like a mini donut. Baked Mini Donuts cookbook. It's like, what very specific one donut recipe on pinch of yam. And. But I'm sure the idea is they can probably relatively affordably hire somebody who can do the photography, who can do the recipe development, who can do the writing.

Yeah.

Is it possible to get a deal like that and still make it worth it from a dollar amount or do you have any insight into like, how much you'd be able to make from those types of, well, relationships?

I mean, I think when you have a general blog, you're gonna. That's the kind of deal you're gonna be offered. Because nobody really, I mean, Ina Garten doesn't need someone to do a soup to nuts cookbook to compete with hers. Generally speaking, she's doing fine. So you're more likely to be offered some kind of, you know, idea where they're just the same recipes you can find anywhere else a lot of the time, but they're packaged in this way that makes people go, oh, wow, foil wrap cooking. I'd like to do more of that. And so you have to decide if a lot of the time these publishers want you to just drop everything and go insane developing all the recipes and shooting all the photos in a very short amount of time. And they don't offer that much money. But you have to decide, is this experience worth it? So I can see what it's like to do a cookbook. Do I still want to have my own cookbook? And you know, if my cookbook was Baked Mini donuts and then I have to promote it, do I want to be known as the baked Mini Donut expert for the next three years because I have to promote this book or is some. Or would it be better for me to just say no? Yeah, I don't think Lindsay wanted to be known as the expert. In mini donuts.

Baked mini donuts. Right. And the other consideration is if I'm going to be producing 75 of these recipes, what would it look like if I just created 75 of these recipes on my site? And you can't do like exact calculations on that, but you can kind of get to the point where you're thinking about, okay, like if this, if this deal, probably not a great deal from a cookbook perspective because they maybe want you to use your audience to promote it. But also it seems like a lot of times in a situation like that, the cookbook is like, hey, we're going to put this on an end cap at like a cookware store and it's kind of, it's going to be like the equivalent of like a pack of gum or Snickers where like you're checking out and on the way out you're like, oh, that's kind of like a new creative thing. Maybe I should buy that. Yeah. Versus if it's like your cookbook, then you're selling it to your audience. People are interested in it because of who you are.

Right.

So yeah, it makes a lot of sense. The kind of, the considerations that go into it, both from a branding perspective, but also from a business finance perspective. Does it make sense to dedicate all this time and energy to it? Do you have a. This is a really hard question because there's no concrete answer to it. But when it comes to cookbooks, how much can you expect to make? And like what, what does that, how do you, how do you make that more of a lucrative thing? As a creator? What does that look like?

I think most people do not go into writing a cookbook because they're going to make a lot of money. Most people are not going to make a lot of money. So. And if that's why you want to do it, it's going to be really hard for you to get a cookbook.

Deal to justify it.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you have to go in it because, you know, you've decided that this is your next step and this would be a good credibility product for you to have and the market is right for you to be the author of this particular book.

Ye.

Those are really the reasons. I mean, you hear about stories and every once in a while they happen. For example, I have a new client who shall remain nameless, who is basically an influencer who has built a very, a big platform putting recipes into her Instagram posts.

Sure.

And she just got a six figure deal.

Uh huh.

And then they said, okay, you know, you're doing all the photography and you're writing the book, and, you know, we'll see in a year. She's like.

Which is a lot of work.

Yeah, yeah. And she doesn't know how. She's never done this work. Right. So. So we're gonna. I'm gonna help her figure it out. That's pretty rare that that happens.

Yeah, I've heard that in the. In the kind of. In the general business world as well, from people who write books where they're like, hey, I'm not doing this as, like, a financial decision necessarily. It's more of a strategic decision. One of, like, I want to go in this direction. I want to have credibility. And there's something about credibility of media that people are more accustomed to. Books, tv. I remember the first time I've told this story a couple times, where we're on the local morning news, and There was probably 75 people watching. Right. So it's like morning news in Minnesota at, like, 7am and. But, like, there's a couple friends who are randomly watching, and then our family. Some family friends watch, and they're like, you guys are legit. Right. Like, we had been doing what we were doing for so long, and I feel like a cookbook does a similar thing where when. When we moved in, this was the one house ago, not the house we're in now, but we moved in the neighborhood, and we were telling some people what we did, and we're trying to explain it. We're like, well, what do we call it? You know, Lindsay and I always have this conversation. She's like, well, we have this blog, and it's like, people don't really know how to respond, but where they're like, oh. Like, it's almost like, apologetic. Like, yeah, shoot. Like, I. I hope that, you know, you find work eventually. But I feel like if you say, oh, I've published a cookbook, there's something about that that legitimizes you as a creator for whatever reason.

Oh, definitely.

And I think that ripples in really significant ways. The other piece that I think is important to consider, which you kind of hinted at, was. And Lindsay talks about this, but almost like legacy and the difference between, like, our grandkids looking at posts that Lindsay's, you know, posted on Instagram and a blog versus opening Lindsay's cookbook that she created. And that just feels different. It feels different to have something you open that you can tangibly hold, that you can wrap in wrapping paper and give to somebody. And I think as creators, that's one of the considerations we have. It's not always financial. It's, it's also what am I doing in the world and how am I contributing? And I know for a lot of digital creators can be like the only thing I'm doing is like putting pixels on the Internet. And a lot of times, you know, especially if you're like a designer or developer, in four or five years that all goes away and there's just kind of a cycle to it. So I think the physical of it is really important. But also you kind of have to have a digital presence in order for it to work. Are you seeing.

Yes.

You do any cookbook deals where somebody has no presence online and they're still able to get cookbook deals or is it, is it a non negotiable that you have to have a following?

I think you have to have some following. But I think publishers are also very aspirational about what they just like bloggers are aspirational about where they want to get. Publishers are aspirational. Like if you ask them, they'll say, well, we'd really like to find somebody who has half a million followers or half a million hits on their blog. Well, of course you would. You know, you'd like to find the next Otolenghi also and the next Ina Garten.

Right.

That doesn't mean that they won't publish people who are not at that level. And they're very funny about it. It's always a very weird conversation when you try and pin someone down about, well, what is the right number and this and that. Because their model is the same as venture capitalists where you invest in a whole bunch of companies and if one of them turns out to be, you know, one twentieth the size of Google, then you don't care if the rest of them fail or don't sell much or whatever. So publishing is the same way they always want to. They have to pay all their bills and their bonuses all come from the heavy hitters. And then there's everybody else.

In Inventure, you see, where if something doesn't catch, then they're not going to give attention to it. So it falls off, you're kind of forgotten and it just kind of sits there. But if you become the shining star, all the resources, all the focus, all the marketing, like you get all of that. Yes, but it's, it's, it's not like attention is given equally to all.

Oh no.

Venture. And it sounds like absolutely not.

No. Because if they've given someone, you know, one and a half million dollar advance, then they've got to pay. They've got to devote resources to that person because you want them to earn that money back and more.

Yeah, yeah.

Whereas if you've given somebody $15,000, it's much less of a risk and you're like, oh, whatever, you know.

Yeah.

You can do all your own publicity, right?