S1 Ep3: Rob Moore Reveals How To Become RICH With Property, Key Lessons from BILLIONAIRES & MORE!

Forget whatever plans you have this weekend because you're staying at home and playing on SpinQuest! And there's never been a better time to sign up than right now. New users get $30 coin packs for just $10. All the table games you love with hundreds of slot games and real cash prizes. That's at spinquest.com. S-P-I-N-Q-U-E-S-T dot com. SpinQuest is a free-to-play social casino. Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

What's the number one lesson you learned from Andrew Tate?

No marketing is bad marketing.

Episode with Tate got 4.5 million views.

One of them, yeah.

I've seen you argue with Tate.

Yeah, because he doesn't know as much about it as me. If you borrow a million from the bank, you have a problem. If you borrow 100 million from the bank, they have the problem. Treat everyone really well, but don't let anyone fuck you.

What was the thing that changed your life at the start?

And my dad had a massive nervous breakdown of screaming, squealing, convulsing. Within 5 minutes, the police turned up and they beat the shit outta my dad in front of my mum. People don't trust mainstream media anymore, and that's why they listen to, uh, what you might call extreme voices. Rob.

Rob, who runs the world?

And follow the money. Like, if you want to know who runs the world, follow the money, the money chain up. Um, there are some very powerful families who have dynasties going back hundreds of thousands of years, like the Rothschilds, um, who are major shareholders in major companies and banks, but they'll never reveal their identity. And why would they? And if I ran the world, I wouldn't be telling everyone who I am because people would complain. And do I even— do I have a moral and ethical judgment on how the people that run the world run the world? Not as much as I used to, because they just know how to make money and they're holding on to their way of making money. The problem is when it's not a service to humanity anymore. So the banks are not a service to humanity anymore. Governments aren't governing. They're either over-intervening, like putting us all on lockdown and make it impossible to live and run a business. So they're over-intervening or they're under-intervening. So, but if you would have a gun to my head and say to me, who runs the world? It would probably be BlackRock. BlackRock. If you think of the kind of companies that control us, banking, bank controls us because it controls our money. Food controls us because we get addicted to sugar. And then pharmaceuticals control us because we get addicted to needing the pain relief. And if you look at the major shareholders in all those companies, it's BlackRock. So BlackRock and whoever control BlackRock mostly control the world. And that's how it is. I'm not like, don't come and assassinate me. I'm not saying it's a conspiracy, just how it is. You run your company, at times some of your staff will be like, always, you know, a dictator, or don't like your policy, or it's for profit. So you at times could be deemed as BlackRock by some of your staff. Yeah.

Just levels.

Yeah. And profit's addictive. If you, if you are making profit and you have a license to make more of it, that's hard to turn down. Like if I had a money printer, if I could buy a money printer off you, I'd pay all the money I could find. Like money printing devalues our money, so it's not really good for— it's okay for humanity if we need to fund a lockdown or defend ourselves against a war and we don't have the immediate funds and the public aren't going to fund it through taxes. It's just not completely evil. But I'd get— I'd pay all the money I could raise in the world to have a money printer to print money because I'm an entrepreneur, so I'm not judging. But the thing is that the old You know, the Bank of England was what, 1600 and something it was set up. You know, this is, these old banks, they're old, they're out of date.

Yeah.

And it's time for disruption. And I talk a lot about being sovereign of your own money, owning some gold and silver, owning some crypto, running your own business. Don't leave your money in the bank. It's not a custodian of your money. The banks are a for-profit corporation to maximize shareholder value. That's why a bank exists. Don't be fooled by the adverts, you know, that it's here for our future and our pension, our retirement and our children. It's not what it is.

And so you wrote a book called Money. How, how did you make your money originally? What was the thing that changed your life at the start?

Real estate property. So I was 26 years and 11 months old, and I was working in my dad's pub. I went to university, I got a degree in architecture, and I did nothing with it. And I built £50 grand worth of personal debt, and I had to work in my mum and dad's pub, and I was earning £200 a week, and it was costing me £300 a week to live because of all of my debt that I'd racked up. And then I was just getting new credit cards to pay off credit cards. And in the end, I think my interest was as much the same, if not more than what I was earning. So I was drowning. And on December 15th, 2005, in my dad's pub, it was freezing. Like, there was frost on the ground. He had a full pub. I used to work the bar. My dad used to carve the meats. My sister used to be the waitress, and my mum used to be the chef. And my dad had a massive nervous breakdown in the pub in front of everyone. Started screaming, squealing, convulsing, foaming. I've never seen anything like it. My dad's a strong Northern man. He was always my hero. He's 80 now. And, um, I managed to grab him and pull him outside the front of the pub and get him on the front lawn, away from everyone. Although they were still all looking out the bay window to see what was going on. They were all sort of piling around. And I don't know what had happened. I think because, you know, he had a carving knife maybe, but someone had called the police. And within 5 minutes, the police turned up. Two guys got out this small reinforced van. One of them must have been 19 years old. And they beat the shit out of my dad in front of my mum, my sister, myself, and all the, all the staff. They literally beat him up. Um, he got sectioned, admitted to Ward 5 of our local hospital, which is the mental institution there. And, um, I didn't see him for months. They just drugged the shit out of him. And, um, I realized in the weeks after, it wasn't like that was like, oh yeah, my one defining moment where everything changed, but I spent weeks hating myself. Why did I go to university when my dad had taught me to be an entrepreneur? Why was I in so much debt? Why was I so useless? Why didn't I have the courage to start my own business? Why am I working in my mum and dad's pub? Why am I a loser nearly age 27? I'm going to be 30 in 3 years. Why am I such a fucking loser? And I just hammered my own brain into a pulp to the point where I was like, go do something about it then. Within a week, I'd gone to this networking event locally in Peterborough, and it was a property and business meetup. There were about 11 or 12 people there. And the last guy I met at the bar was my business partner today. I met him there, still with him to this day. I didn't know it, but he was already nearly a millionaire, but he didn't tell me. And in that first year, we bought 20 properties with his money. In the next year, we bought another 30 properties with his mum's and his stepdad's money.

Jesus.

And then we set up my training business, Progressive Property, and started selling deals to other people. I became a millionaire just before age 31, which pissed me off because I wanted to be a millionaire before 30. Yeah. But now I have to say before 31, which doesn't sound as good. Yeah. And now we own 345 together, the two of you. Yeah. Wow. We have one 100-apartment block that we developed through lockdown. We've got the biggest managing agent in the city with 1,150. And we've got the biggest property training business in the UK, Progressive Property.

And so I've seen you argue with Tate about property.

Yeah. Because he doesn't know as much about it as me.

Yeah. And so he says that buying a property puts you into a bad position, you should be renting. And you are quite frankly the opposite of that. Yeah. It's a way to freedom.

Yeah. Well, buying one property might put you in financial struggle, but buying 345 makes you very rich. Yeah. So I remember a mentor of me saying, Rob, if you borrow a million from the bank, you have a problem. If you borrow 100 million from the bank, they have the problem. And I got that 18 years ago. I was like, okay, so inflation erodes the value of our money and the banks take our money and lend it out and make on it. So what if I go to the banks and borrow money for property that beats inflation? I can literally use the banks to get rich. How they use us to get rich. Mm. So when lockdown happened, inflation went through the roof. Inflation's been nearly 30% since lockdown. People don't understand inflation and it's been nearly 30% since lockdown. That's about how much my property portfolio's gone up. 'Cause property beats inflation and inflation usually pushes it up. Mm. Also, if the value of money's gone down 30%, so has the value of debt. So, My tens of millions of pounds worth of mortgages on my hundreds of properties has gone down by 30% and my property portfolio's gone up by 30%. And people say, oh, it's not fair that the rich get richer. They think it's billionaire being evil or satanic or, you know, they think it's the governments. It's not, it's 'cause we own assets.

Yeah.

Simple. You own assets, go up. Yeah. Money goes down.

So how does a young person right now buy their first property if they buy an investment?

Live with your mum and buy an investment.

And what is an investment?

Well, anything that goes up in value, i.e., virtually any property in the UK. You buy a property and you get high and party and get as many hookers as you want for the next 15 years and look at your property portfolio. It is doubled no matter what you do. You can, you can do whatever you want in the next 15 years and mismanage your own life and your property portfolio will double. In 1088, all the land and property in the UK was valued for basically tax purposes, million pounds. Now you can't get a garage in central London for a million pounds. You probably can't get a car parking space. In Chelsea for £1 million, but the whole of the UK land and property was £1 million in 1088. Mm. So, um, go and borrow some money and put it into a property investment and then use the rental income to pay the bank or the private investor back and you, you keep the difference.

And so what does, practically speaking, what does a young person have to get together in terms of upfront to buy? 'Cause there must be, In certain parts.

Well, I got nothing.

Yeah, but there must be, in certain parts of the UK, there must be the type of property that isn't that expensive but has a good yield. There must be like pockets of great— Peterborough. Is that right? Be the first to play.

Probably shouldn't tell people, should I? Well, no, it should.

Because they'll push all your properties up if they all flog to Peterborough.

Yeah, true. I was going to say they may compete with us, but we are in bigger deals now.

Yeah.

We are building flat blocks, right? Yeah. Apartment blocks. We're putting together a 450 6 apartment block at the moment. And my biggest one before that was 100. And, but you could start with little buy-to-lets, start with buying a little apartment. Mm. You know, a little open plan, one bed apartment. You know, a lot of people, I get why people like Andrew Tate and a lot of people say, you know, owning your own home is a liability and you shouldn't. If you're 21 and you want to travel, and you don't have any money, I'd probably say start your own business. 'Cause you can start your own business on 50 quid or 500 quid. You can't buy your own home on 50 quid or 500 quid, but it doesn't have to be an either or. As soon as you get money, invest it. I was thinking about this on the way down 'cause I walked to King's Cross 'cause from King's Cross to here, 'cause I was early, it took me about an hour and I was thinking about it and I was listening to a money book about You know, the madness with the tulips in Netherlands at one point with the tulip mania, they were paying more for a tulip than they were a house. It was more than a year's salary. And I thought what happened is, so all these people pumped this money in, but they don't realize that it's a bubble and it's gonna burst. So one of the ways to get rich is to put your money and time into things that appreciate fast. but get out before the bubble bursts and put it into things that appreciate long. So start a business, take some of your profits, put into real estate. If you're gonna do meme coins or information, or you've found some viral hack, but you know it's not gonna last, cash in and then put into something long-term. Gold, silver, stock market, property. So that's what, that's what we did. We, we built a training business and an information business, and we just kept taking profits and putting it into property, taking profits and putting into property. I raised money from my business partner first, then his mum, then his stepdad. Then we actually, my business partner went, what about your parents? So my mum, my uncle, because people want a piece when they can see you're doing well.

Totally.

Yeah. People say you shouldn't go to your friends and family for money, but like if they see you doing well, why wouldn't they want a piece?

Yeah, absolutely. And the thing as well, like if you get to the end of your 20s and you have worked really, really hard, you start to notice it in the first few years of your 30s. Like, I would say that all of my friends that became entrepreneurs, actually the first half of the 20s were tough because you weren't going out, you weren't seeing friends anymore. But by the time you got to 28, 29, you had unbelievable skill set. You probably had a business that was making money and you had started to collect cash. And actually collecting cash nowadays is so difficult. If you're in a normal job, with a painful rent, a really expensive life, you end up in a pretty shit situation. And so I would say to anyone that can, the narrative about not owning your own house, I find a strange one personally, because I think they're forgetting how nice it is to have your own house. The feeling of owning your own house is quite powerful. And my wife and I, our first house that we bought, we bought a house, we renovated it, and then we turned the basement into a flat. And then had the house as a house. And it was like the perfect situation because the house kind of made money and you lived in this great space.

Yeah.

And so if you can, I think that what you are prescribing, like putting money into good assets and building up the asset is a phenomenal strategy. It's just difficult often to get the money at the start.

Yeah. People always assume that buying your own home is a liability, but if you buy your own home and rent out 4 of the rooms, you turn it into an asset. And you do that with 4 mates who you're starting a business with, age 21. I mean, is that not like a bit of a genius idea? The problem is on social media, you know, people like my friend Simon Squibb, they just want to be polarising and hate property.

And even though Simon has a big house himself.

Of course, I know he's a hypocrite. He's a thoroughly nice guy, but he's a hypocrite. Yeah, I love Simon. And Rory Sutherland, you know, hates property, but owns one.

Yeah.

Andrew Tate doesn't hate property. He's just saying what Kiyosaki has said. They're all saying it from him, which is the, you know, your own home is a liability if it's not an income-producing asset. That's true. But you made your home an income-producing asset by making a flat in the basement. I remember my business partner's friend. This is genius, by the way. So my business partner's friend's dad, old school entrepreneur, worked hard on the markets, one of the biggest sock sellers, sells socks to Tesco's, you know, old school in his 60s. And he said to his 18-year-old son when he went to university, I will put the deposit down for your house.

Yep.

But you have to pay me back and you have to make profit out of it. I'll buy you a 3-storey 6-bed house in Nottingham. I'm lending you the deposit, you pay me back, you rent out the rooms. And so by age 21, he owned a property in Nottingham that had gone up 50% in value. He'd made consistent profits from it by renting out the rooms. And importantly, he'd learned what it's like to rent rooms out in a house. Because when you rent rooms out to your mates in a house, you learn how to be an entrepreneur pretty fucking fast.

Yeah, exactly.

Pretty fast. So age 21, he owns a house. It's gone up in value. He's made money through university, funded his university, and he knows how to handle people. What a great way to become an entrepreneur, to become a real estate investor. Instead of saying, oh no, don't buy a house because it's a liability, or it holds— the banks just want to make money out of you. I don't mind if the banks make money out of me as long as I make money out of them.

Yeah.

So, you know, my employees hopefully make money out of me and I hopefully make money out of them. So it doesn't have to be one size fits all. Oh, I hate property. Property is, well, it's made me probably nearly 100 million. Why wouldn't you? And I started when I was 27. I started in debt. You don't need money to start property. Just start like you don't need money to start a business. Yeah.

Your, your channel. Is full of pretty bold conversations. Like, I feel like you're—

It's been nice knowing you, by the way.

It's full of them. And I mean, your episode with Tate got 4.5 million views.

One of them, yeah.

Yeah, which is crazy. Why are people buying into the message from Tate? Why are people buying into these, you know, off-mainstream ideas? What's the thing that's fueling everyone?

Because they're pissed off with the mainstream. Mm. Like, do you feel that mainstream media is neutral, balanced purveyors of news and information?

No. But unpack that for us. Why is that?

Well, I mean, even now social media isn't, because they've been suppressing Joe Rogan's interview with Donald Trump on YouTube.

It's wild how that doesn't come up more.

Well, it's not. Do you know who owns YouTube? Google.

Yeah.

And do you know who are the biggest donors for Kamala Harris?

Google.

Just follow the money. Follow the fucking money. So, look, I am an independent media company. You are an independent media company. I get it. You know, if your media company isn't doing very well, you've got to probably be a bit more extreme and polarizing. To get attention. People like Joe Rogan, Andrew Tate came in and disrupted mainstream media, but mainstream media was already dying. The BBC is not a credible organization in the UK. People don't trust mainstream media anymore, and that's why they listen to what you might call extreme voices, because they are pissed off.

What's the number one lesson you learned from Andrew Tate?

Number one lesson I learned from Andrew Tate was no marketing is bad marketing. Mm. I'm a bit divided on this because they say no publicity is bad publicity, but I imagine if they try and smear you that you're a p— and a r— that's pretty bad. So I've, I've always thought, well, yeah, some publicity is bad. I'd, I'd never want that smearing on me. They're just throwing everything at Andrew Tate and he just seems to be getting bigger. Andrew's taught me that no marketing is bad marketing other than no marketing.

Yeah.

So something else Andrew Tate has taught me is that pain is bad for most people, but successful people use pain as their greatest asset and ally. And I've probably spent a lot of time in my youth trying to avoid pain. But I think all the money, the profit, the partnerships, the growth, the virality is looking into the pain, not moving away from the pain. Mm. So pain is your friend and stop running away from it and just get better at sitting in it and existing in it. Nearly everyone you talk to Their main goal when they're hurting is to get rid of the pain. What a waste. What a waste of pain.

Yeah, you can use it, right?

Yeah. So, you know, when we have board meetings and everything's going well and the profit's really good, we're like, tick, tick, tick, tick. Nice.

Yeah.

When the profits aren't there and things are shit, you have a 6-hour board meeting, you're all falling out. No, I don't want the carrot sticks. Fuck off. This is a disaster. I fucking hate labor. But you stay there until you fix the problems. Yeah.

And there's no way, like, there's no situation ever you're learning more from the good times than the bad times.

No, but you can though. Yeah. Like, anytime something happens that's good, I try and say to my team, let's spend as much time debriefing that as we do debriefing what was bad. It's a bit of a myth. You know, you always learn from your failures more than your wins. Not necessarily. You need to reverse engineer your wins as much as your losses. I just think it just feels nice. So let's go celebrate. So we don't do it because it feels nice.

Yeah.

So I've been endeavoring more when things are going well. Why?

Why?

Why? And be obsessive like things have gone bad.

Yeah. Which is incredibly rare. I mean, there's so few entrepreneurs actually do that. But it's such a good takeaway. The other thing I saw on your channel, which I thought was interesting, is that you don't in any way shy away from conflict. Like, you will call people out. If you have a bone to pick with them? I saw you had a slight dispute with Dodge. I saw you've called out Steve Bartlett before. Do you think that conflict is healthy? Do you think that's helping you? Do you think that's annoying them? Because obviously you're a media business, at the end of the day, controversy is useful, I suppose. But is that what it's for, or is that just you being you?

I didn't call out Stephen Bartlett. I was asked if he pays for guests, and I told the truth, right? So that's, that's a difference.

And you know for a fact that they pay for guests?

I know for a fact that some guests Stephen Bartlett has paid for because they told me. Because the guests told me, because I either had them on my show or we were trying to get them. Two guests were coming on my show for free went on Stephen Bartlett and said, oh, we've just been on Stephen Bartlett, we were paid a considerable sum, you will need to pay us a considerable sum. So I, like, I, I, I know I've had Stephen Bartlett on my show. I think he's done very well in the podcast space. I have no issue with the guy. I think he's a brilliant marketer, which of course you might cut out of this clip, but that is true. But I was just asked 'Oh, does Stephen Bartlett pay for guests? I heard he does.' Yes. What's wrong with that?

You also don't strike me as— Yeah, exactly. You don't strike me as someone who thinks that's a bad thing. No.

Tactically, he grew one of the biggest podcasts in the world. Money loves fast. Money loves speed. Money speeds things up. Yeah. Let me ask you this, because we'll come to Dodge. Would you pay $25,000 to have Joe Rogan on this show?

I'm gonna pay a lot more than that.

So you would?

Yeah.

Would you pay 50 grand for Rogan?

Yeah.

Yeah, so would I. Would you pay 100 grand for Trump? Yeah, I, I probably wouldn't pay more than 100 because I see it as a risk because YouTube could shadow ban it. Yeah, but with people like Joe Rogan and Trump, I'm with you. I'm, I'm in the 50 to 100 if it's done properly.

If I get the time, the planning, they're on board with it.

Yeah, well, that would be hard with Trump because of security detail. Yeah, um, no, I get you, and there's nothing wrong with that. You know that.

Yeah.

Because, um, like, for example, some people say— so someone who used to work for Stephen said, well, you know, because they told me what people have worked for him have told me. Um, but, um, people say it's just not the spirit of podcasting. Well, Donald Trump's a busy guy, right? Yeah. And his time's probably worth 100 grand an hour easily. So if he's going to give me an hour— yeah, now if I could get him for free, I'm obviously gonna get him for free. And I've been trying for a while, and I'll keep trying. But he's not—

he's not DMing you back?

I have got a road in, but I'm not saying on your show. But what money does is speed things up. Yeah, that's what it does. So no, I have nothing against that. So I had this discussion stroke argument with Dodge because Dodge poked me about the Stephen Bartlett paying thing, and Dodge said I wouldn't pay for a guest. And I went, yes, you would. You're lying. And I went, no, I wouldn't. No, I wouldn't. No, I wouldn't. And I just like—

I like—

Do you think he would? I don't think he would.

I think he would. You think he would?

I think he would. I don't know. I've had so many— there's a lot of big shows that started after me that I've been on or I've consulted with or I've talked to, and they're like, I'd never pay for a guest. And then like a year later, they're like, oh, Rob, can you connect us with Nigel Farage? Yeah, we'll pay his fee or whatever. So in the end, they realise this is a business and this is hard, and you're not guaranteed virality, and you've had 5 or 10 good guests, and now you've got to get one good one every week, every single week for a year or 5 years. So they come around in this— absolutely, Dodge would, would pay for a guest. I said he would. He, he denied it. Joe Rogan's would be his all-time favorite. And if, if Joe Rogan was there in his waiting room, all you have to do is pay me $25 grand. Dodge is paying it, fact. He's an entrepreneur.

Yeah. And I think if you think about like the economics of the media business, you need a couple of standout guests because because that 80/20 principle will dictate that 80% of your views are going to come from 20% of your guests. And so you are going to have some filler episodes.

By the way, I didn't pay Andrew Tate at all once, and 9— over 90% of my guests I haven't paid. Yeah, so, uh, like, I understand why people would say they wouldn't pay, because if they go online saying, yeah, I'll pay, yeah, I'll pay, then everyone wants to charge a fee. And this industry is going to change quickly if it's just a fee-based model. But, um, I'm clearly one of the few honest ones out there in, in the being a podcaster world.

Yeah. But you've also built an amazing show, and I think that that's probably a combination of being a hustler, being good at networking, and not minding paying people when, when it comes to it. But so you're fine with conflict, I suppose?

Yeah. Sorry, that was your original question, wasn't it? Um, I always used to hate conflict, being a people-pleasing conflict avoider growing up. Hiding away from all the conflict my dad used to create. My dad ran pubs. He'd regularly, like, a customer was causing some shit, he'd headbutt him, beat him up, kick him out. You know, I've seen some shit. Yeah. And like, when my dad was angry, the whole world knew about it because his anger was just— steam would come out of his ears. And so my whole family were like, oh, just everyone, just appease everyone and everything because Dad's off on one. So me, my sister, my mum, we just became conflict-avoiding people pleasers, which actually develops you really good people skills when you're older, when you run businesses. The problem is you can't avoid conflict in business. No, you can't, because you have suppliers that haven't paid you. Oh, don't worry, everything will be all right. No, they'll just fuck you. So I had to learn conflict, and I now know that conflict is as good as rapper.

Yeah.

And, and I don't do it for gimmicks on social media. Like, when I came here, in my mind isn't, oh, I'm gonna create some conflict with Chris so we can go viral.

Yeah.

My goal was to give you good content, and, and if there's something you say I disagree with, I'll disagree with it.

Totally.

And vice versa. So for me, it's not a play and it's not a way to hack virality. It's just being honest and not being scared of it. Which I used to be my whole life.

There was this— I saw this clip by, uh, uh, by Steve Bartlett and Simon Sinek, and they were talking about how they thought Gen Z was like the weakest generation. I don't know necessarily if I think that's true, right? I think that they have been dealt a pretty rough hand on life. However, I do think they're terrible at dealing with conflict, and I think that most people in life become very bad at dealing with conflicts. And if you're good at saying to someone, I disagree with you, this is why, and here's how we're going to solve it, you become powerful, like beyond powerful. And if you can give people bad feedback and do it with a smile and be nice and polite, again, you gain such respect from that person. Whereas like most people nowadays, they just don't know how to have healthy conflict. And like, to your point, the one that strikes so much in business is when people don't pay you on time and they just sort of expect that you won't become conflict. But in many ways, to get the respect that you want from people, to get people to do what you need them to do, you have to have that side to you. And I think all great entrepreneurs, when you peel them back, there is some fire there.

100%. These entrepreneurs have become wildly successful. They do not shy away from conflict. Some of them actually love it. And I wasn't raised that way.

Yeah.

In some ways, people who love conflict— Andrew Tate, I think he loves it. I really do. And in some ways, I sort of slightly admire, stroke, I'm a bit jealous of them because I had to learn it. And I think if you can face conflict and you're strong and you stick up for what you believe is right, you're going to go very far in business and life.

Yeah. And people get caught up in the they get caught up in the conflict and the fight and whatever. Whereas again, actually, you should say to yourself, I want to get what's right and fair. I want the person to realize I won't back down and I want to walk away from this without the headache. Because that's the thing about conflict, is that it sits somewhere up there forever until it's over and you're always thinking about it, which for me, I'm so glad that's over.

Yeah, but until the next one.

Yeah, I'm going to—

conflict's the greatest teacher.

I've decided now that no more investors ever, no more anything. I'm just 100% now, forever on everything.

I have a bet you will race in the future.

Well, I tell you, I tell you, it took me—

Sportsman's bet, you will.

Took me 12 years to build Verve to a point it made £2 million profit a year. And the first 100 days of my new business made £2 million profit. And so I'm like, I don't need to ever again.

My business partner finished our 100 apartment block, went grey because it was through lockdown, and he was like, I'm never doing that again. Only takes a few months or years of forgetting the emotion. Now we're doing a 340-odd apartment block.

But I bet it made good money, the first one.

Yeah, it did. Yeah.

Yeah. So we're talking about Andrew Tate's love of conflict.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know him like his dad knew him, but observing, he seems to enjoy conflict. If you study Elon Musk, he seems to love chaos. He does love chaos. And in the same way, I think Andrew loves conflict. I think he needs conflict. I think he needs an enemy.

One of the things I think is very interesting about nowadays is for the first time ever, you've got the shift of young men are doing less well than young women. And I always find it very interesting that there's so much—

So could you explain that?

As in from an educational point of view, first time in jobs, first time earning power, the metrics are shifting towards young women over young men.

Young women are doing better than young men.

Yeah.

At getting jobs.

Are getting jobs and, and being paid more. And you've got a huge amount of young men super disaffected and looking for controversial figures and so forth. What do you think is driving those young men to be so disenfranchised with the world?

I wanna say something very unsexy but really important, and that is, I do not have all the information about the world to be able to give a very credible answer on what's going on with certain generations. Or men versus women. And I think a lot of people really overrate their opinion. Mm-hmm. How could we at all have all the information to answer these very big existential questions? And that's not me being falsely humble. That's just a reality. So that's the preface to one thing I'm gonna say. Ultimately, I think of the quote that good times create weak men. Hmm. Weak men create hard times. Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And that is the cycle. And you can go back to the— one of the longest empires ever, the Byzantine Empire, the Roman Empire. When it gets really good, that's when the empire starts to crumble. And a sign is strong left-leaning societies. Mm. Strong socialism, strong left-leaning societies is a sign of things have been very good for a long time. So I'm not here blaming generations or saying that the left are woke. We are a product of our environment. So if you and I were 20 years old in the 1920s, we'd be very different men. And by the time we were 30, we'd look 50, and we'd have fought wars, and we'd have fought just so our children and grandchildren can eat. And now we've got these generations that you're talking about. They can't handle conflict because they've not seen it, because they don't know it, because they've lived in a bubble for 20 years where everything's just really fucking easy. We're fed media, we're fed everything to feel good. We're given sugar, we're medicated. That ultimately is the reason why you're getting weak men. That's why weak men are looking for strong figures like Andrew Tate. Mm. And why society is crumbling, because it's getting too left and socialist leaning, where let's take from the strong and give to the weak. Let's take from the productive and give to the unproductive. If you look at history, that is the start of the end of all the empires. And look at the British Empire, it's fucking over. Mm. That's my singular answer, but there's a lot more to it than that. But that's the driver.

And so if you were in a position where you could affect change on education right now, what would you be thinking? Would you say it's not right for everyone? Because we both agree that university now is leaving us in a weird position. Like, I left university, lots of debt, politics degree. And I never used it once. Cost me a lot of money. I never used it once. And all of my friends never used their degrees. So what would we be advising the world right now? How would we remake the world of education? Because I think people like you, maybe me, others are providing people an alternative to how to learn. But would you scrap education entirely?

So my personal mission is to help as many people on this planet get better financial knowledge.

Right.

That's why I believe I exist. I've found that purpose, um, 18 years ago. So based on my own mission and knowing what I know and what I don't know, I would initially, immediately, completely disrupt the financial literacy taught in schools. So it would go from blackboard theoretical economics taught by broke people to entrepreneurs that are donating 5, 10 hours a week of their time, like I said, should happen in politics. And they're teaching starting a business, how to manage money. You know, like I said, whether you are in debt or you're making it, managing it, multiplying it, or maintaining it, you need to learn something different at each stage. So first thing is I'd teach everyone about money because people don't want to admit this, but one of the best ways to turn this country around is to fix the economy, because the economy fixes the NHS, the police, and everything else. But, you know, left-leaning socialists, they want all the things fixed that's fixed by the economy, that's fixed by capitalism. But they want rid of capitalism. They just don't understand. So the first thing I would teach is better financial knowledge, how to make, manage, multiply money. How to leverage the banks at their own game, how money really works, how to be entrepreneurial, how to get pay rises, how to be valuable, et cetera. Almost as important, and this would be in my wheelhouse, but I wouldn't go much beyond this, is teaching personal agency. I.e., everything is your responsibility. Everything is your fault. Everything that's happening in your life, good or bad, is due to you. And you can change your life. You know, that's how upward social mobility and making money from the ground up, not the top down, is based on us believing that we can change our current circumstances. I was broke, now I'm rich. My parents were poor, but now I can start a business. But in order to do that, you need to stop blaming the government, stop blaming your employer, stop blaming people who rant on LinkedIn. And this is why people love Andrew Tate, because he says full personal responsibility. If it's raining, it's my fault. And that personal agency is lacking It's lacking in schools. Our parents knew it, but our generation and down to— what am I? What? Gen X. Gen X. What's after X?

Millennial.

Millennial. Then Gen Z. So that down, this personal agency responsibility. I am the driver of my own F1 car, and if I crash, it's my fault, not anyone else's. That's been totally lost in society and that needs to come back. And it is the best lesson you can get in life because if you think about it, life gives you everything. You go down the gym and do what needs to be done, you'll get fit and strong. You start a business and do what needs to be done, you will be rich.

As simple as that sounds, and I know that some people would say, That's oversimplifying it.

It has to start simple, doesn't it?

But it is true that if you put in the hours consistently, day after day on a business, I'm not saying that the business you start on day one will be the business you end up with, but the journey you go through and who you will become at the end, that is the outcome you want because you become someone who knows how to make money as opposed to someone who just made one business.

Yeah.

So you talk so much about money and I loved reading books of yours. I've loved watching your content. What are the 3 money lessons that people need to know? Like, they, you know, compound interest is obviously something that people talk about a lot but never really put to use. What are the 3 lessons that young people need on money right now?

Okay, I'll give you my new formula for riches, which I'll be writing in my next money book. So this is hot off the press for you.

Yeah.

So I believe the formula for riches is inflation plus X times L times C. Explain. The fundamental rule if you want to make money is you have to beat inflation first. Mm-hmm. And no one's teaching that because if you put your money in the bank, why are interest rates 5, but Barclays will only give you 1.6 in interest? And why is inflation really over 5 cause it's been 30% since lockdown, but they're telling you it's less than 3% because that's how the banks make money out of you. Mm. So you've got to really make 5% a year on your money to beat inflation with a bit of change left. So rule number 1 is beat inflation by X. So either start a company and make more than 5% a year extra growth and profit, or invest in gold or silver. Um, or the S&P 500 or the FTSE 100 or real estate, etc. Things that have been proven over 1,000 years to beat inflation. That's step 1. Step 2 then is leverage. So you can become a millionaire by beating inflation by 2 or 3% over 30 years. Yeah, but it's slow. Whereas leverage is borrowing the bank's money to start a business, borrowing the bank's money to invest in real estate or getting a business partner where your sales and marketing and their operations and creating some force multiplication, you know, looking to go viral on your content rather than just steady growth, leveraging the internet to get global customers. That would be leverage number 2. And then compounding is the C. So inflation plus X times L times C. Compounding is you have to do it long enough.

Yeah.

Be in the game. Now, right. You have to be in the game. Now I'm mentoring this guy, he's 19 years old. He's got all the hustle and energy you'd want of a 19-year-old. And he, he came to me and he is like, Rob, I'm thinking of starting a new business. Should I? And I said, well, what's your experience? He said, well, I've, I've run 3 companies. I said, that's good. I said, and what's happened to them? He said, oh, I folded them all. I said, how long did you give each one? About 3 months. And he's like, I like his attitude in one way.

Yeah, yeah.

But like, 3 months is not long enough.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You've got to give it 3 years or a decade. So you have to be in it long enough to gain compounding. So they're my 3 main money lessons on a personal finance level. NSM. T-Y-E. Never spend more than you earn.

Basic lesson.

It's so basic.

Yeah, but, but how many people are in credit card debt or buying useless shit?

Probably 99% of the population.

Yeah.

Even if you only save 1%, then 2%, then 3%, when you add leverage and compounding to that. So never spend more than you earn. That's one. That's a personal one. A business one. P-Y-F-P-T-L. Pay yourself first, pay tax last. When you're employed, here's what happens when you're employed. I don't know if anyone's old enough. Probably not. Not in this room. But those game shows and they reveal what you could have won. Yeah, that's your fucking payslip. Here's what you could have earned. Oh, but after tax, national insurance. Oh, and your student loans. Oh, is what you've got left? Fuck all. Because you pay the government first and you don't have a choice and you get what's left. There's nothing more demoralizing than thinking you earn 60 grand a year, which you think is 5 grand a month and net is 2,200. Yeah. And then you see your rent is 1,200. There's nothing more demoralizing. The only way to reverse that is to start a company and it can be a side hustle and starting a company. You can delay paying the VAT for 3 months. You can claim a lot of the VAT back and you can offset expenses to get your corp tax and your income tax down. Yeah, there's some rules.

The 19-year-old I think is symbolic of a problem with entrepreneurship.

He's had 5 businesses.

Yeah. And I obviously my channels have taken off in the last 2 years. I've only posted content for 2 years, but before that I've built businesses for a long time. And nowadays I feel like the thing I'm asked for most on my channels is like, what's the hack? You know, like, what's the business? What's the quick one? And I'm always, I'm always sat there thinking to myself, well, I'm not the guy because I did 10 years in my first business and sold it. So my, what's my hack? It's compound your effort over time. That's my one real takeaway. And so whether it's like social media marketing agencies, crypto, AI, NFTs, I feel like everyone is looking for the thing. That's just gonna pump them crazy success. Whereas actually the 19-year-old, I reckon if they'd stuck to the first business and adapted and evolved it, you know, they're a couple years in, they would see so much more success. But short-termism has become frightening for us.

I think it's human nature. They were doing it in with, with the Tulip Mania.

Yeah.

In Holland. In what was that? Was that 1700s? I don't know. But Tulip Mania, it's human nature to look for a shortcut.

Yeah.

So in a way, if you want to know how to be successful, do the opposite of your emotions.

And then the point you raised about personal money, I think is just forgotten by the world. The idea that you shouldn't spend more than you earn feels so simple. I remember a moment I had with my— I'm not a spender at all. Like, I literally spend money on nothing, and I refuse.

Well, thanks for the water that you bought me. And that's more than most.

That's more than most get. But I refuse to demonstrate to the world my success through flamboyant acts of spending money. I refuse to stand next to a really expensive car or jet to try and show that's how much money I have. But I remember this amazing moment in my life where— and there was a moment on Friends like this as well, where Monica and Chandler had been together for a while. And then they were coming up to their wedding and she was like, oh, we haven't got any money. And he was like, oh no, I have this much. And Monica was like, oh shit. And I remember having that moment with my wife where I hadn't sold any companies. I'd just paid myself a decent wage for my own company for many years, but I hadn't spent anything. So by the time I got to 28, pre-selling my company, I remember saying to my wife, yeah, we can buy the house that you want. She was like, where would the money come from? I was like, because I fucking saved it. You know, I didn't spend, money on shit the whole time. I didn't try and act like I'm bigger than I am. Whereas I feel we live in this strange world where everyone just wants to pretend they're rich rather than be rich. Yeah.

Don't go broke trying to look rich. The quickest way to go broke is trying to look rich.

Yeah. Which is pathetic.

It's consumerism.

Yeah.

Because do you know some of the richest companies in the world are designer brands? Designer brands get rich making you broke. Yeah. So when you've got Bolma.

Yeah, yeah.

Or Versace written on your t-shirt that you paid 500 for.

Yeah.

Who's the fucking mug? I know, because I was that guy.

Yeah.

Generally, the more labels someone's wearing, I think the lower their self-worth is. Yeah. And that was certainly me, and I've worn labels a lot when I was broke. I'm not against people wearing labels.

Well, you won't.

Yeah, but yeah, because also it might look good And also they might be wealthy and a lot of people are still flexing. Do you know why Jewish people and very rich Dutch people used to only wear black? Because it was the most expensive dye.

Is that right?

So even just wearing black is a flex if it's the most expensive dye. So we've all got our own flex.

Yeah.

And I don't think there's anything wrong with expressing who you are. I wear Alexander McQueen. It expresses who I am. You probably wouldn't pay what I pay for this. You express yourself by not spending and not flaunting, but your story of entrepreneurship and what you've achieved is your expression. I'm all up for everyone's expression. Just don't go broke trying to look rich.

I think the one step further than that is that you have people now renting private jet sets, not private jets, but a set of a private jet to take the photo. That's legit.

I mean, that is wanky on another level.

I know.

That's the world. But actually, the first thing I thought was, what sort of twat is setting that up as a business? And then I thought, that's smart.

No, the business is smart because again, you'll get all the mugs to pay.

Buy a secondhand fuselage, stick it in a building like this and you're off.

New business. What the fuck?

Coming soon. Yeah, I mean, I own Lamborghinis, I own all these supercars because I love cars. And then loads of people just rent them for a day or an hour for a shoot.

You must feel so small, no, to have to get this rented car to try and make yourself feel big. I think do the work on yourself, you know, put the time into like building something. You will get— there's more satisfaction in actually being successful than pretending to be successful.

Yeah, there definitely is. So what do you think about that fake it till you make it thing? Do you think that's a thing?

I feel I have nothing against people promoting themselves. I have nothing against people promoting a soon-to-be future version of themselves. I think that people can go fucking wild with that statement and that that statement itself will justify the most ridiculous lies ever told in life and entrepreneurship. And like, you've got the, the crazy extreme of that. It's like Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos and fake it till you make it with a medical device and raise billions and collapse.

Yeah, Madoff style.

You've got entrepreneurs in the UK which you could easily name that have, like, lied about what their companies were worth and got away with it and have faked it until they made it.

Well, it's easy to lie about what your company's worth because it's so subjective.

Exactly.

I had an argument with Andrew Tate about whether he's a billionaire, and he was talking about the valuation of his company. You should watch the clip because I tied him in knots because he basically admitted that on a good day, if my company is a multiplier of 12x, I might be a billionaire. Yeah, I'm a billionaire if you put a certain multiplier on my companies as well.

Yeah, the multiplier would have to be fucking big.

Yeah, exactly.

But yeah, I mean, I think people always forget this thing about billion as well, which is like 1,000 million. Like, you can have small businesses that are very, very successful making— like, if you owned a business that made 10 million profit a year, you're insanely successful. Like, insanely successful.

I mean, a million profit a year.

A million profit a year, for sure. Your biggest problem then is not paying paying 450 grand in tax. Yeah, ever-increasing problem.

Yeah.

So I suppose nowadays we're facing probably the biggest change in, in business and in life with like AI and technology doing what it's doing. And so I suppose in your day-to-day business life, is— are you feeling it's disrupting what you're doing? Are you harnessing it to improve what you're doing?

Yeah, we're right at the start of that. So, um, we're bringing AI systems into our sales and marketing team. We're obviously looking at faster processes. The biggest thing I think is information exchange. So I have just over 100 staff. We had nearly 150 at one point. Yeah. And I know the downsides of that and the weight that that brings, especially when, you know, you might find it hard to find talent and the generations maybe don't want to work like they used to. So that brings downsides. But the biggest Friction I find in business is information exchange. If you and I start a business together, we just talk. Shall we do that? Yep. Good. I've done it. Right. Have you done your bit yet? And I love that. And then when you get 100 staff, it's like, shall we do that? Go to the MD, go to the senior team, go to the board. 4 weeks later, hasn't even got to the person. I hate that. So for me, I want AI for quicker information exchange. Is for me the most important advancement in AI. I'm actually not a fan of AI in content at all. I know people are doing faceless content.

I hate all that.

If anyone engages with me on LinkedIn and they've pressed a comment or they've done AI, I'm not engaging with them. I'm engaging with humans. And I write all my LinkedIn content. I don't use AI. I don't mind using AI for research. Yeah. So one of my books and my research is about $6,000 to research a book with me. And in my last book, I didn't need to employ her 'cause I could use AI to do the research. So I saved 6 grand, but it's only doing the research for me. I'm writing the book. Yeah. 'Cause your tone, your energy, your uniqueness, no AI's there and no AI will probably ever get there. So I'm a bit torn. On the one hand, the more AI comes in, the more we need tone, you know, personality.

Yeah.

Uniqueness. But of course it's gonna make everything quicker, easier, and better. So it's probably Internet 3.0 or 4.0. And anything that makes life faster is, is good for me. I, I, I love speed. I hate friction, especially in business.

I think we were talking about it earlier, but like if you were to design conceptually a great business, you would design one that had like high margin, scalability, you know, distribution, speed. And I feel like if you're—

no stock.

Yeah, if you're young now and you're not spending half an hour, an hour a day learning to become great with AI, I think you're missing out. Like, I— the minute it came out, I'm obsessed. If I have like chronic ADHD, if anything new happens, I'm on it immediately and obsessed. I have spent, since it came out, time every day on it. And now I run a business which has very few staff but makes more money than my old business that had hundreds of staff.

And what's that business?

So I have now an information business teaching entrepreneurs. I have a community business, I have a media business, and I have about 10 staff, and I make way more money than my old big businesses, right? And the, the way that I achieved that is leverage on the bottom end with AI and then distributed teams around the world, uh, you know, cheaper labor in different countries. And I found myself in a position now where I used to have to go to the board, to the senior leadership team to get a message of where the company is going to everyone. Whereas now with fewer people and more technology, scalability is crazy. So yeah, if I was young right now, I'd be putting my time.

Yeah, me too.

Into that because the outcome is going to be crazy. So you've done 1,100 interviews of disruptors. You've interviewed some of the world's most famous people. You've interviewed billionaires. What are the key takeaways that you can give to the world about what success is made from?

Well, if you take the billionaires, I think it's 22 or 23 billionaires I've interviewed.

Wow.

And many of those I've stayed friends with since, which is one of the best. We may not have met if it weren't for this podcast. So that's always one of the best things about doing a podcast. And I didn't used to make a big thing of staying in touch with people. Now I do always.

Hopefully we'll swap numbers.

Exactly. And I think it's really important. 'cause that's the old school guy in me wanting to do business by, you know, I see your posts on LinkedIn and TikTok, you see my content, but until we do this.

Yeah, yeah. That's also a takeaway for everyone, by the way. Like, even if your podcast isn't making you money, if it gets you in the right room with the right people. Like last week I interviewed Richard Harpin, who sold his company for $4 billion. You don't get to meet those people normally. You will only meet them in the context of creating media with them. And so Unbelievable takeaway.

I mean, imagine DMing someone, go, oh, you're a billionaire, let's go out for lunch. Yeah, coffee. Yeah, yeah, 10 minutes. Yeah, exactly. But hey, will you come on my show? Yeah, it's like the best chat-up line ever. Totally. Um, so takeaway number 1 is don't forget the people side of business in tech and AI and everything else. You know, a lot of the billionaires I've met, they still do a lot of people-based activities. Number 2 is stay curious. So a trait, I think I've figured out 21 or 22 traits in all billionaires. One of them is they're very good at avoiding tax. One of them is they have ways of creating monopolies that don't look like monopolies. These are just realities. You and I might do the same, but one of them is intense curiosity. And you know, if you look at big-time billionaires, a lot of them are engineers.

Yeah.

They want to, they were probably the kids that were taking the radio apart and wanted to figure out how it worked from the inside. And if you're curious about business and life and entrepreneurship, you know, I came here wanting to get to know you and know what you're about and know your history. Don't just want to go, wah, even though I'm your guest. If you stay curious, all the answers you need, you find out.

Exactly. So the practical tip there is like, learn to listen more. You know, I think people, especially young entrepreneurs, are so obsessed with saying everything on their mind. Like, I watched, I watched a very funny clip of my, uh, one of my business partners, Dan, where he, ends up in a room with Tim Berners-Lee, the inventor of the internet, for anyone who doesn't know. And Tim Berners-Lee asks Dan what he does for his business. And this is back in the day, and Dan's telling him all about his, you know, tech startup business that failed. You know, he's giving so much information to this guy, doesn't even ask what he does. And then eventually someone in the conversation goes, oh, so what do you do? He goes, I invented the internet. You think to yourself, God, you should start with a little bit more listening, a little bit more curiosity. So, Rob, thank you so much for coming on. It's been awesome to have you.

Thank you for having me on, Chris.

Appreciate your time. And what an episode.

Thank you.