The Koerner Office Live: Improv Q&A with biz owners and wantrepreneurs. Comment suggestions below!

Place. I'm live streaming this. I would love to hear your comments as you watch these entrepreneurs come here and ask me questions. I want to hear your ideas and I'll shout you out. I won't steal it, but I will credit you your ideas because I want to hear them. And then maybe if we get time, I can drop an invite link in the comments on YouTube and you guys can come ask questions of your own. It just depends on if people show up because I, I booked these time slots and it's always, it's always a crapshoot to see if people show up or not. So. But I will be watching the chat as much as I'm able to pay attention and watch the chat because I don't have anyone helping me. I don't have like an assistant. There's no one else in here. It's just me. Also, this is, this is not an ad for hb, but this is the best sparkling water I've ever had in my life. It is caffeinated sparkling water. Cranberry, apple, all of the H E B's other caffeinated flavors. Total dog water. Don't even mess with it. It literally tastes like grass and water in a blender. Which that might be what dogs drink for all I know. It might be literal dog water, so. All right, well, we're waiting on Patrick to join us. Patrick has a question about a, like a surfing venue opening, a flow rider surfing venue menu. So I'm actually really excited for this one. Waiting on you, Patrick. All right, just waiting. Got one viewer on YouTube. Whoever you are, I love you. Might be my mom. If Patrick knew how many people were watching right now, he would feel so bad about being late. There's luke. All right. I think Luke. I think you're one of my callers. Luke. Shoot. Luke, if Patrick doesn't show up here in a couple minutes, why don't you just hop in early? That'll leave me some buffer time. Patrick's not here, but Brett is here, so maybe I'll just. I'll roll with Brett. Yep, let's roll with Brett. Sorry, Luke. Brett.

How'S it going?

Good. How are you, man?

Living the dream, man. Living the dream.

Good. Welcome to the Kerner office. It's a good looking whiteboard.

Trying to set up the org chart, get things organized. You know, it goes nice.

You need a much bigger whiteboard. I mean, that organization is just going to keep growing, man.

Hopefully that's the goal, man. Thanks for having me on today.

Of course. Yeah. So let me summarize your question. You've got a junk removal business, right?

Yes, we do. Junk removal and residential and commercial moving now.

Oh, okay. So junk removal and moving. You're about to hit seven figures in revenue. You got 150,000 people in your town and you're just kind of, you're in kind of that messy middle and you're trying to grow, right?

Yep, exactly. We're in Bend, Oregon, if you know where that's at. Kind of a vacation.

Beautiful. Beautiful. Changed a lot over the last 10 years, huh?

Yeah, especially as a after Covid too. It just blew up. So that's been good starting a business here, but we kind of want to test a bigger market and really see what we can do.

Okay, well, let's hear what you're struggling with. Do you mind sharing your business so I can pull up the website?

Absolutely. So the business name is Lib L I V E Junkless. J U N K L E S S dot com.

All right, so let's hear what you're. What you're struggling with.

Yeah, so we started the business about three years ago. This is our first real business. I got basically put a $2,500 investment into the company. And since the first job, we've been running off the cash flow. We're up to about 10 employees now, one office staff, and then we have a virtual assistant who helps organize kind of our back end metrics, all of our financials. And so we've got a relatively small crew of guys. And we're at this point right now where on the junk removal side, we are kind of the market owners in terms of market share. So we probably, it's hard to guesstimate, but based off of revenue and the amount of jobs that we're calculating through just reverse engineering Google, probably roughly 40 to 50% of jobs are going through us on the junk removal side. And then moving is growing, so that's probably closer to 10 or 15%. We've got one franchise here in town with college hunks and we pretty much, you know, we're playing neck and neck with them. And so we feel like we want to grow into Portland. It's a three hour drive north from us and that's about a third of Oregon's population. So we feel like this could be a good market for us to expand into. The issue is with growth, especially on the cash flow side, starting a new market in a bigger area like Portland. We're trying to project, you know, how long is going to take for us to become profitable. But also Take a little bit of market share. So we're, we're kind of going back and forth between should we grow with, you know, invest with just cash flow or try and take investment and go that route. And so that's kind of where we're at right now.

Okay. Have you done any research yet as to how much competition you have in Portland?

We have, yes. So on the junk removal side, we've got three big franchises in the junk removal space and then we've got about two local players that actually answer their phone and don't just sound like Chuck in the Truck. So we've got about five competitors in the entire Portland Metro, which is about an hour drive. Let's say you're smack down the middle.

Well, I thought. Wasn't Portland three hours away?

Three hours away. But if you're. Let's say you're smack dab in the middle of Portland.

Oh, okay. Okay, gotcha. So five potential competitors. So you'd be the sixth.

We'd be kind of six. Yeah. Big player, ideally.

And Port Portland's i8. 10 times bigger than bend.

Yeah, I think it's about 10 times bigger now, maybe a little bit more.

And how many competitors do you have in Bend? Just one.

In junk removal we've got about seven and then on the move side, about three.

So you have seven competitors in Bend, but only five in Portland.

So we have seven good competitors in Bend. Actually. Like, like I would say they answer their phone, they're out every day. Actually working majority in Portland. It's a lot of one man trucks with a dump trailer. And it's, you know, we called about, we scraped about 50 companies, called them all and about five actually sounded like they run a real business.

Okay, so they're.

Sorry, they're. Yeah, they're going after the same competitor, the same customers. We are the ones that actually will spend for brand versus just like I want the cheapest guy. Basically. That helps.

Okay. And so five competitors in Portland that are legit, that would be direct competitors. You're not even counting Chuck in a Truck as a competitor.

No, because a lot of their customers are going to be the people that just want to pay the lowest amount.

Yeah.

And that's not who we're trying to go for.

And so in Bend you have five legitimate competitors or seven legitimate competitors.

Seven were like, you know, we've called them, we know most of them and they actually do a pretty good job, I would say. There's two that are just about, you know, they're organized, they have good pricing Set up and they know how to run a business.

Okay. I mean, so on paper, like, there's significantly less competition per capita in Portland than Bend, right? Like, significantly less.

Absolutely, there's more. So from a marketing perspective, PPC is how we gain initial traction. And there's a lot of competitors playing, you know, on the PPC side. So there would be a lot of money that would have to go into, you know, developing the marketing there. But in terms of the actual competition, I'm pretty sure we could rank up there with Junk King and got junk and blow them out of the water just because we're small and we can act nimble and, you know, we're not a franchise.

Yeah. Have you looked at starting in Eugene just as like a. Because that first second market is a big deal, right? Like, to go from two to three, no big deal. One to two is a big deal. Have you thought about kind of dipping your toe in the water in Eugene, especially since it's closer and smaller?

Yeah, we have. We actually. We've definitely considered that the population is a little bit smaller and we don't know the demographic as well. And so that was kind of our, you know, our hesitation there.

It's a college town, right?

I mean, yeah, U of O is there, and it's definitely a college town.

Do you know what the competition looks like there?

Yeah, there's two. There's two franchises. There's Junk Luggers and I think there's Junk King and Eugene as well, I believe. And then there's just some local guys, but, you know, they don't. We're mainly worried about the. The franchise because they actually know how to market and brand. That's really the big thing in junk.

Yeah. I mean, it looks like it's not even that much closer than Portland. Right. A half hour.

Half hour.

Okay. Same with Salem.

Salem's. Yep. It's about a half hour closer.

Okay, so when it comes to junk removal and moving, what do you like more? What. What side of the business are you wanting to lean into?

When we first start in Portland, I really do think that junk removal overall is more profitable from the beginning, but moving has more demand. And so it really. I'm kind of torn. 50. 50. And looking at the data, moving has about double the search volume as. As Junk Moodle does. And so for us, operationally, we would send down one of our team leads that's currently here and set him up as an operations manager down there, and we would handle the marketing. But he has experience in both moving and junk Removal and so we could honestly play it both ways. It's just. I actually would love your opinion. Do you think that's too much to try and do both or would you focus on one to start?

If I were expanding into a new market, I would definitely start with one. Because that's what you did here. Not really by design. You started a junk removal company. Right. So that's more familiar. You're using the same truck for both services. Right.

So we utilize for Portland. Let's say we started both there. We would buy a dump truck and we probably rent a box truck from Penske.

Yeah.

Okay.

So pretty low cost to start because you, you are able to rent.

Exactly. Most of our cost is honestly marketing and then the operation manager salary.

Okay. How often are the two services paired together?

About 50 of the time.

Okay. Okay. And that's just like without you having to. To push it. It's just like if someone needs junk removed 50 chance they're going to need.

Moving as well within like six months to a year is what we're finding. Because a lot of junk removal come usually it's the reverse if someone's moving a lot of times any junk removal right away. If someone needs junk removal, we'll pitch to the fact that we do moving. And then six months down the road they usually call us to do the move.

So you're remarketing to these guys. Are you keeping them in an email list and all that?

Yes, we utilize Jobber and then we have. They just unleashed their whole new marketing campaign. So we've been sending out. We. I think we have 3,000 people that are on that. Okay. Yeah.

So in your opinion it makes sense to keep doing both. Like it's not, it's not too difficult to do moving as well. Like you want to keep leaning into that or you're on the fence.

They're so similar and that's why it was a natural progression. That's why college hunks really did that is because they're. They go hand in hand labor wise. It's just some of the systems and planning are a little bit different. That's it.

How is your pricing compared to college hunks or junk king on the junk.

Side, we're about $30 cheaper on a full load basis. So if you fill up a full.

Truck, but 30 out of how much is a full load?

So every franchise usually from what I've seen is between 750 and 800 depending on the market for a full 15 yard truck.

So you were within 5% cost of the big guys.

Exactly.

Okay.

And we really take the approach, like we kind of want to be the chick fil a or less schwab of these industries. So we try and be clean cut polos good customer service. And then our pricing is super comparable. So it's like, are you gonna choose the local guy? Are you gonna choose the franchise? Which. That's why we kind of had success in that. Moving, though, is really just a customer service game because it's very regulated. Your prices are decided for you. And so everyone's the same. So it's just.

How are your prices? I don't understand that. What do you mean?

So in Oregon and a lot of states, if you're doing an intrastate. So like a local move less than 50 miles, we have to follow a tariff that defines our prices for us, if you do long distance, it's based on weight and distance. And so it's just everyone is very.

Similar, similarly priced and I had no idea.

Super regulated.

I know I knew Oregon was very regulated, but I didn't know that was a thing. How common is that in other states?

Super common. Because what was happening is back in the 90s and early 2000s, movers were holding cargo hostage until they would. And so they forced a very regulated system. So now, you know, every state has some type of department of transportation that you have to be aligned with. And then obviously the USDOT to do anything across state lines.

That is fascinating. I don't. I had no idea. I'm. I'm so cheap. Like, I don't pay movers. I like, I'm the same. And I'm so lazy that I don't move. So I don't have to move my stuff. But if I did move, I would have. I would move my own stuff. So.

I hear you, man.

So right now, gun to the head, what are you going to do to grow? Go to Portland, do both at the same time or start with one?

Really? We're. We're kind of torn. We have the experience and the systems right now to where we could. We're. What we're really trying to do is build a training system to improve our leadership in the current staff we have and use them as kind of a, you know, chick fil. A method of, hey, we'll give you partial ownership in this business. Pay for performance. You've got to train the guys under you. So I'm pretty confident we can do that successfully. That's easier said than done. That next person can go to the next market, introduce both services, and we could run both. Okay. Simultaneously.

Do you have a specific person in mind for Portland yet?

We do. And he's. His name's Ryan. He's been on our crew for about a year and a half, and he has about 3 years moving experience prior to that as well. So he's pretty versed in the industry.

Who would step in for him in Bend if he were to move to Portland?

We've got a guy named Bryce on the team, and he is. He's shown, you know, initiative and he understands the systems and how we work, and so he would kind of replace Ryan.

Okay.

Yeah.

Do you think Bryce might be the second guy to go to Portland?

I think he, you know, if that model worked, I think he would actually want to take it to a different location.

So that's why we're so big.

It's super big. And so that's. We don't want to overextend ourselves with the cash flow we do have, which is kind of why we're in this weird middle ground where it's like, you know, we've kind of maxed out what we can do in Bend. Yeah. And so it's the only other option. Unless we just want to stay content.

Who wants to do that?

Exactly. It's too boring.

We got to progress. That's why we're on this earth.

Yep.

Have you already talked about territories? What was the first guy's name?

Ryan.

Ryan. Have you ever already talked about, like, a territory of Portland with Ryan?

Yeah. So we've already had this conversation and he's very interested. We would focus. Really.

What.

What we want to do is, is narrow down. Portland did one small circle to start in, and that would be the west side of Portland. So kind of where Nike's based. So Beaverton, kind of the higher end suburbs of. Is where we start.

Have you done more granular PPC research or competitive research based on territories within Portland?

We have. So we've done keyword research and kind of what the average price is, and it's super comparable to Bend. So it's ranging between $15 to $100 for an actual conversion.

Okay.

Expensive. It's competitive.

Yeah. And if you were to use Ryan for this, would you start with one service or both?

To be honest, my gut tells me to do both because I know I can create instant demand, off and moving.

Yeah.

But I know it makes it more complex. Junk. It's going to probably take longer because people vet junk companies more. Actually. They actually, like, look into them versus movers. They just need their stuff they don't care as much.

Yeah.

Which I thought it'd be reverse.

Right.

But it, it's not. So it's just, it's weird area I'm in right now.

Yeah. I think you're really smart with thinking about the concept of momentum because that, that second location can make or break you. And even if it's more simple to launch with just junk removal, the lack of momentum could be a net negative for you. All else equal, because you've already cracked the complexity code on offering two services. Right now the complexity you need to crack is going three hours away to a. Not just a bigger market, but a different market. Like a different culture altogether. Right. Like someone living in, near the Nike headquarters, I would imagine is completely different than someone living in Bend, Oregon. Right. Bend is like it's on an island. It's very unique. Is there a part of Portland that is more like Bend than West Portland?

Actually, west Portland is probably the most comparable because what happens is people visit Bend for corporate retreats, so. So through intel or Nike or Tektronics, and they end up saying, hey, I love this place. As soon as I retire, have the option to, I'll move to Bend. And so the last five years, the demographic from Bend has kind of gone from dirtback skier to more like, hey, I've got a lot of money and Bend is a vacation market. Let's move there.

Yeah.

And so what we like about Portland is it's more white collar and folks don't have trucks. They don't have access to dump trailers or moving equipment. They don't want to do it themselves. And the demographic between Bend, Portland, like you can look at the moving data. Everyone from Portland or Seattle or San Francisco is moving to Bend. And so it's super similar in terms of the person. I don't know if that helps.

Yeah, it does. And how long have you been open in Bend and how long has Ryan been with you?

So we're coming up on three years in July. So we started 2021 and then Ryan's been with us for a year and a half now, so about half the time.

Okay. Man. It might make for really good content for me to just like turn your model on, on its head and just send you a different direction. But I think you're just like, I just want to confirm the path that you're already on. If, if I were you, I would like you're. You're been in business for three years. I would do exactly what you're planning on doing. I would go to West Portland. I would use Ryan. I would make sure that he knows what his territory is. I wouldn't promise. Convert to pro rata equity. Maybe the same, maybe different. Maybe it's 10% rev share. That converts to 5% equity or 10% equity or whatever in that territory. I would be very cautious on everything that you promise him today because a lot can change and you're much more likely for him to feel bummed that things didn't go as you thought it might go than you are for him to just suddenly become a bad employee. Right. Like, I feel like he's already proven himself. But like, offering equity to employees can be logistically tricky. And I've made that mistake in the past of offering ownership. And then when push came to shove, it was actually kind of hard to make that work due to external circumstances. But I think, I think it would be a net negative if you launched in a new market with just one service. I feel like you need that momentum. You want to get revenue in the bank. It just feels good to get that first job. Like the dopamine hit of your first revenue is better than the dopamine hit of like your first hundred thousand dollar month. So I would just continue on the path that you're on and go to Portland and you could be a $10 million company after saturating Portland. Right.

It's awesome. No, I appreciate the time and I agree. And you know, the other thing on the compensation is we might just put him on a salary and make it performance based and create a spreadsheet. Hey, if you climb our revenue ladder, this is where you'll end up. And these are the benefits you'll get versus the ownership model, which is, I think, probably a better bet, but there's still upside, you know. So.

Great.

Thank you, Chris. I appreciate the time.

Absolutely. Also, I meant to say that your, your website looks awesome. I mean, it seems like you're doing everything right, so just keep crushing it trying.

Appreciate it. Keep doing your doing. It's awesome.

All right. Thank you, Brett.

See you, Chris.

See ya. Patrick. You left me. Come back, Patrick. I want to hear about your surfing business. Let me see if I can text him.

It.

All right, we're waiting for our next caller. All right, Patrick's coming. He just texted me. If you're watching on YouTube right now, start thinking of some questions you might have. Maybe you can put like a teaser of the question in the chat and then I can drop an invite link in the chat and you can just hop on and we'll. We'll bro down for a minute. Meanwhile, Patrick is about to join. We'll go from there. And then Luke, if you're still watching, let me see. Yeah, Luke, you. You are. Well, you're actually up after Jack, so we just had Brett, then Patrick, then Jack, then you. But if Jack doesn't show, then I'm gonna have you hop in next. And Jack is supposed to show at 12:20 and he's actually five minutes late. So if Jack ghosts us, then Luke would love to have you hop in. But here comes Patrick. And there he is. Patrick.

Chris. What's going on, man?

What's up? Hey. Those are good looking teeth. You must have a good dentist.

Oh, man, thank you. Thank you. Thanks for taking the time to hop on the phone today.

Of course. Yeah, I'm really excited about this one. I love unique, sexy businesses and this seems like it's one of them. So let, let's hear what you like. Where are you in this process?

Yeah, sorry for the issues with my connection there. I am unfortunately driving right now, parked while we're recording, but that might be the issue on the connection. So it heard your podcast asking for questions, ideas if you had any, and I thought this might be the type of business that you'd be interested in. Last summer was exposed to a flow rider for the first time. It's. You might have been on a cruise and seen one of these, but best way I could describe it for the listeners is a surf simulator. It's a ton of fun for kids through adults. And got back and thought, man, I would love to take my kids to something like this. We live in Texas, 100 degrees in the summer, even swimming outside is hot. And so, so started thinking, what could it look like to create an indoor flow rider venue where you give people the opportunity to come and ride one of these machines. You have some food, beverage options, birthday parties. That's kind of what I started thinking about and am interested in starting a business that will serve my community and help families. Families make memories, have a good time. And so I have done some research talking to a manufacturer of this machine and got some pricing on that. And now I'm trying to figure out is this even a good idea? Is it crazy? Is this something that people would show up to in a way that would allow me to have a sustainable business? Do you need to have some sort of additional offering besides just the. The flow rider to go with it? The model I was looking at is a two lane flow rider, so could probably have about 20 people, 10 each side, going for Hour sessions at a time and so sorry, that was a lot. Happy to answer any questions. Feel like I was all over the place there. But I'd say early stages of this. If I could be convinced of the numbers, I'd be ready to move forward quickly. And just kind of hard to do validation on an idea like this when you don't really have many competitors to see if this is something people are interested in.

Yeah. So where in Texas are you in?

College Station, Texas. So home of Texas A and m got like 70,000 college students and it's growing quite a bit. I mean there's a lot of young families. Right. Connected to Brian as well. So good population base. Not a major city, but certainly think there'd be enough population to support something like this.

Yeah. Now, does it have to be indoors or could it be outdoors as well?

It could be outdoors. The only reason I was thinking indoors could make sense is in the summertime, even sitting outside, you know, if you. I'm a dad, going to take my wife and I have four kids, something like this. If it's 100 degrees and 2 o' clock in the afternoon, you know, even if there's shade at the venue, it would, I think be not the most enjoyable experience. If you weren't on the Flowrider machine then as well. If it was indoors, something I think you could do year round and have people, even when the weather's not great, still use the machine. But it could certainly be done outside.

Does it have to be like built into the structure or is it kind of more like a. Like a bounce house and you can place it somewhere?

Well, so as I started researching it, they've got an option that is like a mobile version that is the same material as an inflatable bounce house. It's got the similar powerful jets to where it looks like the experience would be pretty similar. You wouldn't have the ability to do the two lane option on that. So you'd have fewer customers that could go at one time. But. And I haven't been on one of those personally, but from what I understand, it's a pretty similar setup to the ones that are installed in the ground.

Okay. So it's feasible to think that you could rent a space, not have to build like a custom built space. Rent a space, put one of these in there and have the business that way.

Yes. Yeah. So I mean if it was, hey, I could, you know, rent a space. There's big mall parking lot right off the highway that is empty. Could you rent that and put A mobile concession stand, snack shack and put some shade up and run this during the summer. I certainly think that would be feasible because. Be a possibility. And I just was unsure of what sort of traction in a place that gets to 100, 203 during the day, you might get that three in the afternoon.

Yeah. Now how does it work with the manufacturer? Do they sell it to you? Do you lease it? Is it a franchise? How does that work?

Yeah. So I initially had reached out to Flowrider directly and those are super expensive to the point where I was like, that doesn't really make sense. But have sourced some things from China in the past and so started reaching out to some suppliers in China and could get one of them, one of the inflatable ones for about $150,000. So it was more reasonable than I had expected. And I'd have to have my lawyer check to make sure there's not some sort of issue patent wise with, with Flowrider. The supplier said, no, it's no issue, but have not done any of that legal due diligence yet.

And what does it cost if you were to buy this one for 150 grand? How much can you make? Like per hour maximum? If there was a lot?

Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. I'm a big fan of not doing public math, but the. What I've seen is people will try and sell something like this for an hour. So say maybe sell a hour long slot and you might have 10 to 15 kids that you allow to. That way the line's not too long, you're waiting 45 minutes before you can go kind of cycle through the line quickly. Yeah, I think that you could charge 20, 25 bucks per hour slot. So I think it'd be in a, you know, if you had 10, 15 kids, pretty reasonable to think you can make 250, 300 bucks an hour in terms of revenue just from those ride tickets. And if you did that 10 hours a day in the summer, you know, could you do 2500 to 3000 bucks in a day? I certainly think if the weather was nice and you were able to get the word out, it's. It's something that, you know, I've got four kids, I'd take my kids up to do something like this.

Yeah. So if it were, if it had two lanes and it was 20 bucks, then like each kid, what does it take? Five minutes per. Per ride?

Oh, no, it's much shorter than that. I mean most people are wiping out pretty quickly, so they get a Few.

They get a huge tries, don't they?

Yeah.

So you'd be able to go through. They estimate that you can go through a couple hundred rides an hour, you know, so if you had 10 people and you know, you were able to have 200 rides over that hour, you know, each kid going 20 times, you know, something like that. And obviously someone who's more advanced might last longer. But when I saw it on the, the cruise, most people were not going longer than a few seconds. I mean, they were, they were wiping out.

Yeah, I went on a cruise on one of those and I was not good and it was embarrassing. Okay.

Yeah.

Especially whenever you then have the kids who are making it look easy and it's like, yeah, my pride and ego hurts there a little bit.

Yeah. So if you've got two lanes, let's just be conservative. Let's say you can put 15 people on it per hour. Two lanes. So 30 kids per hour for a two lane machine, 20 bucks per ride, that's 600. 600 bucks an hour. Is that reasonable?

I think it'd be reasonable to. I mean, I think that math checks out. Would you always be at 100% utilization? Probably not. And I think it would vary, you know, on the weekends, summertime, I think it could be reasonable to hit those sorts of numbers. But again, that's where I struggle in terms of projecting this out. It's not like there's someone doing this down the road that I can go and just see, hey, how many customers are they getting? You know, but even if it was 50% utilization, could you get 300 bucks an hour? You know, I certainly think 50% in the summertime would be reasonable.

Have you ever looked for one of these for sale like on Facebook Marketplace or ebay? A used one specifically.

So when I talked to Flowrider, they had some used ones for sale, but they were still going to be several hundred thousand dollars. So I think you getting something from China would be cheaper, assuming that the quality is what the videos show. And I mean, there's resorts throughout Asia who have these similar types of machines that were not manufactured by Flowrider, but from some of the suppliers there in China. And so, I mean, maybe is there a scenario where if it failed, could just go and sell it and make my money back or minimize the loss? I think it's probably a niche buyer, but I've not checked Facebook Marketplace for them.

All right, I've got a bunch of ideas. So what type of location do you have these things at? And try to get an idea of how much money he's actually making from that exact machine that you would be buying as well. And then I would even see if you can put these outside of a mall or inside of a mall. I think water is the hardest part. But did you see my tweet about the, like the inflatable bull riding business?

Yeah. Yeah, that was, yeah, that was awesome.

I look at this very similarly and you know, all the commenters like, what about insurance? What about it? Like, you just buy it. Like people insure bull riding places. That's why there are bull riding places. I look at this very similarly. A lot more expensive but potentially higher upside because if you can make, let's say full capacity 10 hour day, you might never have a day like this, six grand. Then let's be conservative and say that an average day is two grand. That means you pay off the thing, not including labor costs. You pay off the thing in 75 days. And maybe you're only open on the weekends. Well, that's less than a year. Include the labor cost. Maybe it's two years. It's pretty good roi. You could even start calling up malls today and say, hey, would you ever allow something like this either outside or inside? And law of large numbers says that someone would. And maybe it's a crappy mall, maybe they're desperate. Maybe it's worth testing it in a crappy mall. Maybe you go find the crappy mall and you walk around and just start talking to the business owners and you find, all right, these guys are not doing well. But this type of business, maybe an arcade, is actually still, really, really still doing well. So I would start doing the research by getting on the phone with previous buyers of these machines and like leasing offices at malls and see if they would allow something like it. I think you're, you're onto something with the indoor aspect, but the outdoor aspect is also interesting because you can, could, if these are portable, you could just start testing these at fairs and farmers markets just to like learn and like, all right, I'm never going to pay the bills by doing farmers markets or fairs on the weekend, but I'm going to learn a lot about pricing and consumer behavior. And you know, if you pay $10, you get five tries or three. Like that's going to be my testing ground for this and then use that research to make a decision. But I bet you that there's a market for buying something like this. But you know, like anything when you're, when you're buying something from China, that's that Expensive. Buyer beware. Because those things could leak. You never know. Of course. Risk.

Yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate the. The feedback. And I've talked to. It seems like most of the customers are in Asia, and I've talked to one of them, and it seems like most of these are placed at large resorts, water parks, and there are some here in the States, but they're part of Kalahari Indoor Water park, this massive water park here in Texas. And so I appreciate your suggestions and plan to make some calls and see what I can find out. And I am getting close to just saying, worst case scenario, if there's a way to test it in the parking lot of a mall or do this in a low risk way, be interested to see if it could lead to anything. So I'll keep you posted. But really appreciate your time and suggestions today.

Oh, sorry, I lost you for a second, but I got the gist of it. Yeah, I think it's worth testing for sure. And I want to hear how it goes. Even if you don't end up launching. I want to hear what you learned from this research.

Awesome. Well, I'll keep you posted, man. Thank you so much for all that you do. I really appreciate it.

Of course.

Yeah.

Thanks for coming on.

Yeah.

Have a great weekend.

You too. See it. Bye. Bye. Nat. Nat, if you can hear me, you are after Luke. All right. That was fun. I hope he ends up launch. Launching that. Hey.

Hey.

How's it going?

Good. How are you, man?

I'm pretty good. Pretty good.

Thanks for having me.

Welcome to the Kerner office. Of course. So I want to hear about your tutoring business and what you're struggling with.

Yeah, So I started back in November. It started off pretty slowly. I was trying to do Facebook ads, but I really, like, had no clue what I was doing. I had never tried Facebook ads before, and I was trying to wing it, but obviously that didn't work out. So I moved into actually going into Facebook groups. So, like, mom and dad groups, school districts, and I was just sort of saying, hey, I'm a college kid and I'm. I'm looking to tutor online and if anyone's interested. And so, like, that sort of message. And it worked real quick. Yeah.

You are doing this virtually, so geography is not a concern, right?

Yeah. No, not a concern. Yeah.

Oh, you broke up for a sec.

Yep. Yeah, I'm here. Yeah.

So you're doing all this yourself or you have employees?

I'm doing all myself right now. Yeah.

Okay. All right. So you started joining Facebook groups. And how did that go.

It went okay. I was able to get a lot of responses and people saying, yeah, I need tutoring. And you know, they were responding and I get a lot of direct messages, people that were interested in it. But the conversions on that were really low. But one thing I did notice is that when I was able to get people on an introduction call, I was always able to get like at least one session with them. And so that worked well.

But yeah, so your, your, your close rate is high from your sales calls, basically.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Do you have any idea of the exact percentage close rate or in proximity?

In terms of like the amount that I got on the intro calls, yeah.

Like how many people did you convert based on how many intro calls you had?

So I probably had maybe eight intro calls. And I think seven out of the eight I was able to like, at least do some, you know, some people I was able to get as consistent customers for like, you know, like months at a time. But others it was like one and then, you know, they, they didn't schedule another one after that.

But yeah.

So of, of the seven how many would you say are ended up being recurring versus a one off?

Uh, about four of them. I was able to, I tutored them for probably about two months. Um, okay. Because I started back in November, so like, obviously the school year ended and you know, I'm not really doing it right now, but trying to prepare for the next year.

And then how much are you charging and then how often are your lessons? So like how much revenue does a two month long customer represent to you?

So a two month customer. So I would do about one to two sessions a week and they would be 30 minute sessions and I would charge 24.99 for those half hour sessions. And so that would, I would probably make roughly 125, 150 every month. And so.

Yeah, for a couple months. Right.

Oh, here we go. Can you hear me?

Yeah, yeah. So 25 by or half mark.

Yeah.

And the average customer stays. And you do that twice a week. The average customer stays a couple months, right?

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Okay. Have you ever experimented with your pricing at all?

No, I pretty much had the same, same pricing structure throughout the whole time. And I was also. One thing that I also want to change going into next year. I was hoping to get some advice on this. I was charging the same price, like regardless of the, the group that I was tutoring. So like high school, middle school, I was charged the same price and I, looking back on that, probably wasn't that good. Of an idea.

But yeah.

Yeah. When you go in, are you able to acquire customers outside of these Facebook groups, or has that been your only way?

So I did get one through. I got two through, like, word of mouth and like, recommendations from someone who I was already tutoring. And I got like, one more from, like, a recommendation from, like, my mom's friend, Something like that sort of deal.

Okay. But mostly Facebook groups.

Yeah, yeah.

Recall.

Yeah, sorry, I keep. My connection must be bad or something.

That's okay. What is your pitch in the Facebook group? What do you say to them?

So I have a pull up here, actually. So it says, hello, parents, I'm a first year student at Washu and I'm a virtual tutor. If your child could use some help in algebra, geometry, or any K through 12 math concepts, feel free to send me a message. I have availability every day of the week and I'd love to help. So that was the message I would send out to the groups.

And yeah, that same message every time. Have you played around with it at all?

Well, I would. I would say like, hello, parents of, you know, insert town. But that was pretty much the most I would do with that.

And so are you in Seattle then?

No, I'm in. I'm in St. Louis.

Oh, okay. And it's Washington University.

Washington University in St. Louis?

Yeah.

Okay. Not University of Washington.

Yeah. Not.

Not university.

Okay. Yeah. And are you posting in Facebook groups that are geographically nearby or.

No, I did. Yeah, I did post in a lot that were.

Were nearby.

I sort of started in. In this area and then I kind of just went everywhere. You can probably look up a random school district Facebook review if I see my post in there.

But.

But yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Now, what was the call to action at the end again? Were you asking them to DM you?

Yeah, I said, feel free to send me a message. I have availability every day of the week and I'd love to help.

Okay. And do people ever comment?

Yeah, yeah, I get a lot of comments from people just asking questions like, how much does it cost? You know, I guess it online. Well, some people would ask that even though it said online, but just people inquiring about, like, what subjects I was doing and that sort of thing.

So the. The first thing I would do. I think you're doing a lot of stuff. Right. I like that you're. Even though you're virtual, you're posting nearby because they have that affinity to you. I like that you're saying you're a college student because people want to support that. I Think the fact that you're closing 90% of your calls means that you. You could be charging a lot more and you might be able to make twice as much for doing the same amount of work.

Right.

I imagine these calls don't take that long. They.

They probably 10 minutes.

Yeah, yeah. They just want to make sure you're a real person, that you sound and seem nice. Right. I would have your call to action be more incentivizing for them to comment because Facebook loves comments. Now, I know people are commenting, but if you just call to action them to comment instead of dm, you, it will, it will tell face the Facebook group group's algorithm that whatever you're saying is more interesting than average. And it will, it will. Because, you know, like, I own Facebook groups and I'll post something really interesting and Facebook will only show it to 5% of the group members. Right. But as people start commenting, they will naturally start showing it to more and more.

Oh, okay, gotcha. I didn't know that's how that worked.

Yeah, yeah. They'll say, oh, this is interesting. More people might want to see this. Try, try to incentivize comments. Definitely raise your prices. I would basically also put some sort of sense of urgency in there where it's like, hey, like, I just had a cancellation. I've got a couple slots I still need to fill. Right. They usually go pretty fast as opposed to saying, like, I've got all the time in the world. It's like, right, how good is he if he has all the time in the world?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah, definitely. Like, I have two slots left and it's like, oh, oh, I gotta. I gotta do something, you know.

Right, yeah.

Or I would also take, I think, what. What subjects are you tutoring for specifically?

So I do.

It's mainly math. So I'll do like algebra, geometry, like pre calculus, that sort of deal.

Okay, so a couple more ideas. Are you listed on any marketplaces? Because I know there are some marketplaces that match tutors with parents. Are you on any of them?

Yeah, I was on one called tutors.com where you can. Okay, you can pretty much pay for leads. And, you know, like, you'll pay. You'll pay like a 20 flat fee or whatever, and then they'll have someone message you that's looking for a tutor.

That's cool. Okay, so I would definitely recommend. Look, look for other niche tutoring marketplaces. Do you have an upwork account?

No, I don't.

I would definitely make an upwork account because you can, you know, you'll pay upwork $5 to acquire a customer, but then you can pull them off upwork so you don't have to pay any fees and have a recurring customer. That's how I found my son a tutor. I just thought to go to upwork. Yeah, most people don't do that, but I think there is a self selection in there where people that are like posting to upwork are like more white collar, maybe more able to pay you more per hour.

Right? Yeah.

I would also go to all those marketplaces, all those platforms for tutors and try to reverse engineer them by seeing like you click the drop down. Like subjects, what do they have listed first? Because I guarantee you, whatever listing first is the most popular. I feel like algebra is one of the most sought after subjects. And then in your Facebook post you can take that data and lead with that. Okay. The subjects that are the most, maybe not math, but more granular like geometry, algebra or whatever it is. Algebra one, algebra two.

Right.

Or go into other Facebook groups for parents and start searching for words like algebra, math, geometry and like find Facebook groups for parents that aren't local but have like hundreds of thousands of people. Just because you're going to use those to try to get data and just search for specific terms, language, arts, math, science, and see which ones are appearing the most often. Same with nextdoor. Same strategy on Nextdoor. What are parents asking for the most? And then in the comments of those posts, what are people complaining about and what are their pain points? What are their biggest pain points? And then lead with those in your local Facebook groups. They might only have 5,000 people in them. Right.

Okay, gotcha. Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, yeah.

I think you're on the right track with Facebook groups. Like because there are unlimited amounts of those and it doesn't. You could do it all over the world. Right. So once you hone in that process and know, all right, if I'm in a red state, I'm going to post about this. If I'm in a blue state, I'm going to like, you're going to learn. Did you lose me?

Yeah, yeah.

For a second there, I said you're gonna, you're gonna be so busy that you're gonna be hiring people to help fill all that demand because you're gonna learn all these little tactics. So.

Okay, so you recommend I like, I wait till I I sort of fill up a lot of sessions and then start, start delegating the, the tutoring to other People?

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah.

You want. You want to be, like, drowning in work before you really start hiring other people, because then that's when you're going to be forced to learn all these scaling mechanisms.

Right. Okay. That makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, man. Well, I'm excited. I want to hear how it goes.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for the advice.

That's very helpful. No problem. Luke, good luck.

Thank you.

I'm going to. All right, Nat, I'm letting that in. Brigham, you are next. Brigham is next. Nat, how are you?

I'm good. And you?

I'm good. So your question is around finding products with high demand. So why don't you tell me exactly what you're looking for?

Yeah, so I'm used to finding demand for apps, right. Mobile apps, but I don't know how the physical goods work. So, for example, when I want to find demand for a mobile app, I want to go to search ads or sensor tower to find that. Ok. The ad has a good search volume. But for physical goods, I don't know. Do you go to Google Keywords to find that this product is actually good, or do you go to Facebook search ads to find the demand? Because otherwise it's a waste of my time to focus on a certain product that I know that will not have demand. Yeah, that was it. I'm naive about the physical goods.

But you do have experience with the apps, you're saying?

Yeah. For intangible goods or mobile apps? Yes.

Now, are you just trying to resell existing products that. That might be hot or trending right now?

No, not really. I'm more like a creator. Like, I like to create my own product, but then starting from something existing. Right. So improve on something that already exists.

Okay, so you want to find a popular product people are already buying, might have a deficiency of some sort of. And then you want to kind of put your touch on it and make it better and then sell that.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay. Have you looked at Jungle Scout yet?

No.

So try that. That's specifically for Amazon. I think they're. They're launching to other platforms or they already have. But that will show you exactly what is hot on Amazon and exactly what's trending, how many units. And it's not perfectly accurate, but it's directionally accurate. Many units they're selling per month or how many dollars they're making per month. And then you can also go to Alibaba and Aliexpress and Temu and look at what they're pushing the most. Like, start searching different categories and start paying attention to how they're ranking your search results. Yeah, because that's probably what's popular right now. Furthermore, there is a. I don't remember this, so you're going to have to Google it. But there's a URL suffix that you can add to any Shopify store that will show you all of their products by best to worst selling. Okay. Okay. I've done this before. So basically use builtwith.com to find a bunch of Shopify stores and then you're going to take a spreadsheet, put all of their URLs and then use the Concatenate function to attach the same URL suffix to all of these different Shopify store URLs. And then you'll be able to see you can do this manually or hire a VA to do this. Exactly. Which of their products sell the most in that current moment.

Okay. I'm also interested in the competition, right? Because in, in mobile apps you can see the, the, the popularity like people searching for this product and you can also see the competition. Right. So by definition when I see high, high volume of search, but high competition, then it's more, it's a red ocean. Right. It's more difficult to compete. You have to compete with price or with ads, which is, I don't like those, those games. So I was thinking, is there something similar that I can find high volume search below competition? Like maybe Shopify for, for the high volume. They have a lot of stores that are pursuing the same customers.

Right.

Is there a way to do that?

I believe so. I, I know there are tools out there that do that. Nothing is coming to mind offhand. But there's a tool called I think Gummy Search which does that for Reddit. It will show you what topics are talked about the most in any given subreddit. And like what comments have certain, like appearances, a certain number of appearances for specific products or as far as finding out how much competition there is. I know that Jungle Scout does that on Amazon list to watch over time to see if they're, they're going up or down in popularity or competition.

Yeah, this go. This gummy search looks interesting to me.

Yeah, it's pretty cool.

But then hopefully you don't mind me asking this, but you know the Reddit is difficult to self promote, right? So how do you use this gummy search? You find where the demand is and then, but then is there a way to self promote on Reddit?

Oh yeah. So I wrote a newsletter on this like four or five months ago. So if you go to newsletter.chrisjkerner.com there's one specifically about how to go viral on Reddit. There is a way to do it. It's very replicable. You just have to kind of tell your story and show people what you're building in a very informative way with a good hook and a good title. And then once it starts taking off, then you can edit the post to add a link directly to your product or service. But if you, if you put the link in there in the beginning, then it will never take off because it's too obviously promotional.

Do you put the link in the first, the first time that you write the post or at the end you edit the post after you.

No links at all. Like, in the beginning it just looks very value add. And then at the end you're like, edit. Oh, wow, this is taking off. Thank you so much for anyone asking, because a lot of times the comments will be asking like, what's your product?

I see.

And so then you can even comment directly on those commenters with your link as well.

Okay, so at the end of the engagement, after you have certain posts or people commenting, then you have a couple hours.

Yeah. Because Reddit will show you exactly how many people are, are viewing and reading your post in any given moment, and you'll see it start to accelerate. And so if it never accelerates, then there's never a point to add the link. But as it's like, all right, 100 views an hour, a thousand views an hour, 5,000 views an hour. And also, you want to, you want to go in the subreddit and sort by top post by month, by day, all time. And you want to, you want to make your post a lot like that one. Right. Like if it's braggadocious or if it's humble or if it's telling a story, like it's different based on the subreddit, but just try to recreate what posts have already been viral in that subred with whatever you're doing?

Yeah. Use the formula.

Yeah, Yep.

Do you, if you, if you go viral with a certain Reddit post, do you copy paste for other subreddits? So. Or do you. With the same account? Because it will look like spammy.

Right.

After they check your profile, you do have to use the same account. Most people are not going to check your profile. You just have to do it in the right way. Because it's really hard to have a lot of Reddit accounts that have good karma. You can buy Reddit accounts and I've had some luck with that, but eventually they're likely to get banned if you keep doing.

I have ten minutes. Right. So, yeah, that reminds me, that the Google SEO algorithm changed. Right. Which to me, it's like prioritizing organic content produced by humans. Right. Because people have used a organic content quote, unquote. So what are you using now for SEO to rank high in SEO? Are you posted on Quota Reddit?

No, we haven't changed anything. Maybe we should. But we're just. We're keep doing. We haven't really seen a hit yet.

Yeah, I'm being hit. Okay.

I think it's still pretty early as far as, like, the AI changes are concerned in SEO.

Okay. Yeah, sounds good. I'll check this gummy search. Looks interesting to me.

Yeah.

And I'll check the Jungle Scout.

Yep.

Thanks for all the good advice on Twitter. Of course. Like your post.

Thank you, Nat. I appreciate that. All right, we'll see you later.

All right, man. Thank you.

Bye.

Bye. All right. Brigham. Brigham.

Chris, can you hear me?

Yeah, how you doing?

Hey. Can you hear me?

All right, I can. Can you hear me?

Yeah.

There's a bad lag, though.

Yeah, there is. I can hear you've got that Utah accent.

Well, I've got some kind of accent.

Yeah.

So I've seen your name pop up in my email a few times and on Twitter, and you seem like a guy that's a lot like me, just always hopping from thing to thing.

Yeah, it's a curse, honestly. My parents sat me down a couple months ago and said, son, if you're going to provide for your family, you really need to focus on one thing. And I said, I'll do my best.

Okay, well, that's. I mean, they love you.

They do. They do a lot.

Okay, well, let's hear about. So, from what I understand, you and your wife are working for a popular fitness influencer, managing her comments, and you want to productize that somehow, right?

Yeah, more or less. So I actually do digital marketing. My wife, she works for this influencer answering DMs, and my sister also works for her. So I hear from both of them a lot about what this influencer does. And I'd like to keep the name of the influencer quiet just because a lot of this is still.

Yep.

In the followers, though, huh? How many followers does she have?

1.1 million. So there's a lot. And a lot of them are. She's a mom and kind of plays into the mom thing, and so a lot of them are in Similar phases of life. So anyway, they've got like fitness and some of the health like foods and they have a line of health foods and protein powders and stuff like that that they've released as well. A lot of the. I'll just give like a quick background on it. A lot of what, A lot of what my wife does is she just answers questions. So she pretends to be this influencer answering kind of in her tone. They give trainings on all of that kind of stuff. They have a lot of backend resources, but they're all like Excel spreadsheets where they have common topics. Like when somebody asks about a certain thing, these are the canned responses and it's pretty unsophisticated on the back end. And then on the client facing end, all of her content is being put out just on stories and you know, like Instagram essentially is her landing page. And so they've got a website, but it's kind of crappy website, hard to follow, not super easy to navigate and you know, a ton of affiliate links and other stuff like that. And then they've got on the website there's a whole section where they have ebooks with a lot of her thoughts and like education and stuff and then a ton of podcast material and other things like that. But it's. None of it is centralized in any way. It's all just on Instagram. So as my wife's answering these questions, they're all questions that have been posted about or there's an ebook about them, or there's a whole podcast episode about it. And so then my wife's whole job is responding to these DMS and saying like, oh yeah, I actually have great content about this exact thing. Here it is. My thought was I actually reached out to a couple Fiverr creators to see if they could create like a kajabi or teachable course. And my goal is to just take all of the content that's publicly available, like on this lady's Instagram account or her ebooks, like the free ebooks or even paid ebooks that are on her website, and then podcasts and scrape all of that content, compile it into an easily digestible thing, and then pull a list of her most active followers and run a retargeting campaign on Facebook. My question so this kind of gets into the nuts and bolts of it is I've got this lady's phone number because I've been to like company parties with my wife and things like that and you know, I've asked her questions and Like, I'm to a point now where. Not like a, you know, a best friend kind of a thing, but at least familiar enough that I could probably reach out and say, hey, I've got a great idea. I'd love to sit down and ask you about it.

Yeah.

But I don't know if it'd be. I mean, I'd make 100% of the money if I just push the course out myself versus bringing her in and having her be the distribution. The only issue is just that it kind of comes down to I don't know what's copyrighted, I don't know what's.

Yeah.

Like, if I couldn't steal her branding, if I.

If she has nothing to do with it.

Yeah.

So I figured this is kind of right up the Texas snacks alley, where you're kind of the. You're the legal third party seller for all of the Texas snacks stuff, and you've worked out kind of a comfortable, you know, like, hey, I won't step on you working relationship online.

Yep.

So I'm just curious for your thoughts on that.

Yeah. So I think that whatever you might gain in, like, revenue by just doing this solo, you will more than make up for by partnering with her somehow. And one thing that comes to mind immediately, which I didn't think of before this call, is using her content to make a book, like a physical book, an audio book, or multiple books. I'm pretty close friends with a guy that he has, like, reverse engineered the Amazon algorithm to get, like, reviews and to get Amazon to promote you and to get like certain Facebook groups for readers and writers to promote you and Goodreads and audiobooks. And like, he kind of. He wrote 20 to 25 books, him and his wife, and then now he's packaging this up as like an alternative to the traditional distribution model, which they take like 70% and he takes like 20 or 30%. Right. And so I think there's a world where you could take all of our content, use AI to organize it, and then use a human, like a similar. A human of a similar demographic that speaks this language. Maybe, maybe like a mom that's really good at writing. Right. That is kind of in this mom Instagram world. You could use them to take like the outline that AI gave you and actually write a physical book or use AI to tell you, like, all right, what are five really popular books, a whole series of books that I could write about all of these topics that this one person is always talking about. It's actually surprising how much physical books and audiobooks can make. And the shelf life on these years or decades. Right?

Yeah.

And if you, if you were to do that, it doesn't have to compete with a more expensive course. It could just go side by side. Right. Some people would rather read a physical book or an audiobook or have an ebook. The physical book could be top of funnel for something more expensive. But I like the idea of you kind of acting as an agent for her to go find a ghostwriter or to go find a company like I was just talking about with my friend that can actually do all of the work and you're just frankly acting as a middleman and, and maybe this third party company takes a 20 or 30% cut and you take a 20 or 30% cut and she takes 51%. Or maybe you take a 50% cut and she makes 20 or 30% because a traditional publisher is going to keep 70% anyway. Right. Now granted, a traditional publisher would probably give her an advance of 50 to $500,000, which I wouldn't want to do that. Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't suggest that. But here's the thing, like, so my friend approached me with this and I was immediately interested because the hard part is writing the content. And that's done. I write a hundred thousand words a month. It's all there on Twitter. Right?

Yeah.

And for her that's done. It might be more video format, but you can easily take the transcripts of these videos.

Sure.

You can automate that. Right. And so I was a very, I was a very easy quote unquote sale for him because I don't have to sit down and write this and I don't have to do the work and I still get a lion's share of the profits, you know.

Yeah. Interesting.

What do you think about that? Do you think that could work with her and then actually partner with her to do that? So she, her distribution could just be the cherry on top and you could tell her like, listen, you're gonna help throw gasoline on this fire, but there's going to be a fire with or without you, you know?

Yeah, I like that idea. As I was talking with my. I like the swig cup by the way. That's, that's way more, that's way more Utah than my accent.

Most Utah thing you've ever seen.

That's, that's a good, quick call out for my subject line in the email I sent you.

The way more Utah than my accent. That's hilarious.

For those. I just mentioned a subject line that I sent in an email to you. It was a wider whale than a Utah dad. Yeah, that's.

It's one of the best I've seen.

Anyway.

The.

Yeah, I like the idea of the book. As I was talking with my wife, I brought that up actually, and she was saying that they've got kind of a really wide horizon on products that they want to, that they want to roll out and they've got a limited team. You know, I think they've got something like 20 full time employees, including some warehouse people and stuff like that. So they're spread really thin. But I think a book is on the horizon. It's just a matter of like whether that's, you know, five years out on the horizon or in the next couple months. I'm not sure.

But.

So maybe if I just said like, hey, this will be a completely done for you service.

Yeah.

Then maybe that would be a lot more attractive.

I bet you anything that if a book is on the horizon, which I'm sure I'm not surprised that it already is, she probably already has like a title or a concept in mind.

Right.

And I did too. Like, I've always wanted to write a book and I, whether I use my friend or not, I'm gonna have a book or multiple. But like, he brought to me ideas that I had never thought of for books and he's like, dude, you already wrote about this. And I was like, oh, okay. Well, if you're just going to accelerate the timeline and bring me new book ideas that I probably never would have launched anyways, then what do I have to lose? So maybe her shtick is I'm making this up, like organic produce. Right? And you're like, listen, like, you talk about organic produce a lot. You want to write a book on that? Great. Still do. But I've also noticed from your comments and like there's these tangential topics like organic fruit or holistic eating or you know, healing your body with, with fruit like that I could get written for you that you're never going to write about these anyway. Right. And a lot of times when, let's say an author, they're, they don't have a hit book until book number seven. When number seven's a hit, people go back and buy one through six. Yeah, it's a rising tide situation. I just like that idea because it doesn't have to compete with what you're already thinking, like, of course. And doesn't have to compete with her. Do you know how big her business is, like on a yearly revenue basis? And or how big her email list is.

I tried to. I know that she does do a newsletter. I don't know how big the client list is. From a. My wife told me. I think it was, like, one month's numbers. I can't remember what it was, but they're growing really fast is the thing. So whatever numbers my wife would have told me six months ago, they've probably. They're much bigger. I don't have any idea. I mean, I could probably back into them if I had a little bit of time, but I don't have them right now.

Okay.

Yeah.

I mean, you could also say, listen, there's gonna be a lot of work for this book, so I'll give you 30% of it. But for every book you sell through your affiliate link, like, if you think that you're gonna sell a lot more books than me and my team are gonna sell, great. Let's put your money where your mouth is. You're gonna get 30% of everything, and then I'll give you 20% on everything that sells through your links. Right. Or 50% or whatever it is. That could be more bargaining power to keep a higher percentage. And you can also do it where it's like, listen, let me just write a chapter for you. I'll give you an outline. I'll give you a chapter. If the chapter sucks, then we can scrap this whole project.

But sure.

I definitely think you want to work with her and find some very creative AI tools that you don't really share with her, but you withhold and use to find some really interesting topics or outlines that she might not have thought of herself because she's probably swamped. Right?

Yeah. No, that part is. That much is very true, is that there's way too much on her plate. Way too much on her team's plate. They're going in way too many directions. And so that was part of why I feel like having a making it done for you offer would be really attractive. So let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying build the course and pitch the course, but then also separately pitch a book idea as well and come across as like, hey, we'll publish your book for you and distribute your book for you, and you can be an additional distributor of the book.

I would just approach her first with kind of both options stated loosely. Right. I'm like, I think the course idea could be very profitable for this reason, but I think the book idea could be very profitable with this reason. Like, for this reason, are you okay with me Just taking your content and, and putting a couple things in front of you just to see what you think. And then maybe you put like an outline for a course in front of her and an outline for a book with a title and like two or three different titles or concepts, and then kind of letting her steer the decision making from there.

Okay.

Because if you're like, you don't want to go all in on one or the other because you kind of want to hedge a little bit, but you also don't want to sound wishy washy. So I would sound very factual. Like, listen, here's what, here's what you're gonna expect from a course.

Okay.

Here's what you can expect from a book. Bop, bop, bop, bop, bop. I think they go hand in hand. I think one can be top of the funnel for the other. I want to start working on both. I already have the content here. Are you cool if I just start exploring something and we can kind of work collaboratively and then I'm sure she'll say yes to that because there's. There's really no risk, and then start putting stuff together.

Okay, very cool. I like the ideas. I think I'm gonna. I think I'm gonna mock something up like a, an example of a course, and then go get a couple, like you're saying, a couple ideas on book titles, a couple chapter outlines, and then go sit down with her.

Yeah, I love it. Well, let me know how it goes.

Can I get one, Just one additional thought on how to break down the, like an equity split or something like that, because you were saying traditional publisher is something like 70, 30 in favor of the pull publisher. Is that. Would you recommend something similar to that and then a 20% kickback on books that sell through her platforms?

I think so. I think that would be very generous to you. So that might just be a starting point, but if you were to shake out at 50, 50, I think that's still pretty good to you.

Okay. And then what about on the core side of things? Same, similar setup?

I think so. Yeah. I would say just. Just first, for the sake of simplicity, I would keep them the same.

Okay, cool.

Yeah.

All right, I'll go do it and I'll. I'll send you an email and let you know how it goes.

I love it, man. Thanks a lot.

Okay, thank you, Chris.

Yep. See ya.

See?

All right, we've got Gil.

Hey.

Hey, how are you, Gil?

Can you hear me?

Yeah.

Good.

How are you?

Good. Thanks for joining.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

So if I Pull up your question. I don't really know anything about you. You've got an idea and you want some feedback on it.

Yeah. So basically I've been a Wantrepreneur for like 10 years. Life's been kind of busy with the kids. Got a 4 year old son who has autism, so he's taking up a lot of time. We got a 20 month old. But I'm, we're getting to a point where I have like some time to finally start to do a project for myself. I've done other things in the past where I started things up. Nothing really took off. I freelance graphic design, like renting a trailer, outdoorsy kind of thing. But I kind of am interested in starting like an item to sell on Amazon.

Okay.

So I can kind of just have an idea. I guess I'm looking for a little bit of validation for my idea and if it's good, maybe what would be the first steps into like having it made?

Okay, so before we talk about your product idea, what first gave you the idea to sell something on Amazon?

I just, with the amount of time that I have, I, because I could always try to do freelancing, but I'm just like with the kids and everything, I just want to do something where I can sell an item and just kind of be on the back and not having to deal with like clients and stuff like that. At this point in my life right now.

That's the ever elusive passive income, right?

Well, yeah, I guess Passive Inc. Elusive passive income. But I mean obviously I know that it's going to be a lot of work.

Yeah.

So.

And you know, I kind. So yeah.

Was there like, do you follow someone on social media that has been talking about this? Like what, what first gave you that.

Idea for, for like doing an Amazon item? Yeah, well, I just, you know, I've been listening to like, you know, Noah Kagan. I read his book. You know, I've been the Ramit, Sadie's a Tim Ferriss and all that. So I wanted to address a paint a pain point that I was having in my life. And so that's kind of where the, my idea was. Well, it'd be awesome if I had this product even for myself. There has to be someone else out.

There that has the same pain point as me.

Yeah. Okay. All right. What is your product idea?

So I have, it's an issue with my, my glasses. I have three pairs of glasses that I use and they're scattered all over the place. And whenever I go somewhere I kind of have to Take all three of them because computer, distance, sunglasses, prescription, and they're all over the place, and it just kind of looks like this, and they're just like. So it's just kind of a pain to find them and everything. So I thought it would be great if I had, like, a product where I had these songs, these cases that were all, you know, magnetic, that could just stick together and then you know, make so to keep it, everything organized in one spot. But then also maybe for travel, have, like, a little case that they could fit in. So just. Yeah, so that's pretty much the idea. I've kind of reached out to friends and family about it and asked it for feedback, and I've gotten good feedback. My sister was like, that's a great idea. I would totally buy that. My One of my best friends was like, I wouldn't buy that.

Does he. Does he have glasses?

He does.

Why wouldn't he buy it?

I don't. He said, I wouldn't buy that. But I can see how some, like.

Really old people want that.

I can see why a senile person would buy this, but I wouldn't exactly. Lucid person. I mean, honestly, it's nice to have friends that are honest with you, because I can't tell you how many friends have told me, oh, yeah, I would do that. And then I actually do it, and they're like, oh, well, let me, you know.

Yeah, well, he gave me good feedback. Yeah.

Sorry, can you give me just a second? I have someone at the door. Yeah, give me just a second.

No problem.

All right, coming back.

All right. You there, Gil?

Yes, sir.

All right, sorry. I just had a lawnmower delivered. I wanted to make sure that I got the lawnmower. All right. So your friend, you had some say I would buy it, and one said I wouldn't. How many people have you talked to specifically?

I think it was like, I've reached out to all my family, so probably, like, almost 10 people.

Okay. And what percentage would buy it?

Well, some of them don't have glasses, so don't wear glasses. So I would say that the people that wore glasses told me yes, you know, except for my friend Adam.

Now, would it be like a magnet that holds them together? Or, like, would it be a case? What would it look like exactly?

I was envisioning something like a rectangular case like this, and they would have, like, a magnetic panel on the inside, like a very thin magnetic panel. And then they were all just kind of stick together. And then, like, we could put it inside a little container that would have a little space for like your wallet, watch or something else. Maybe something you could put on your bed, on your stand next to your, on your nightstand or anywhere.

Okay. So it really could just look like I'm picturing some, something the shape almost like a matchbox. Right. Just something rectangular, thin as possible that had magnets on the inside that just. They could stand alone as their own case. But they also, they're stuck together. Right?

Yes.

I like that idea because it's not like you could just take existing stuff and piece it together. Right. You don't have to go get molds made. I like it for that reason. I mean you could even make that in your living room just with magnets and boxes.

Yeah. And I was, I was thinking I would do it, start with like just taking some cardboard, you know, some cartons and just like cutting it all up and just kind of just to get the visual of what it looks like.

So one problem I foresee with this is selling it on Amazon because on Amazon you gotta match search traffic.

Yeah.

And people are. Have you done any research on Amazon searches like with Jungle Scout to see what type of glasses exist accessory people are already searching for today?

I haven't looked on with Jungle Scout. I did search on Amazon first glasses cases and like Google and stuff. I didn't see a product like this out there that, that existed yet. But I kind of feel like it's kind of niche so that it was like hard to kind of keyword search.

It something like this.

Okay.

Because you can look up glasses cases and you know you're just going to pop up generic cases.

Yeah. So I'll tell you all the reasons why I do and don't like this idea.

Okay.

I like it because you could, you could put it together in your living room pretty easily. You could buy existing things and put it together. It's cheap. It's a cheap, it's cheap to buy, it's cheap to make and it serves what, 30% have glasses, maybe 20, 30 of the overall population. You could ship it fairly cheaply. It's lightweight, it's under 13 ounces which is key. Which means you can ship it with USPS first class, which is significantly cheaper than priority. So I like that. Why I don't like it is wait another reason why I really, really like it. The biggest reason is it's very short form, viralable. Right. In a five second clip you could show people exactly what the value proposition is.

Yeah.

And so I feel like that more than outweighs the lack of Search traffic on Amazon for it. If you get this in the right hands on Instagram and TikTok, it could go massively viral. The problem with that is, is that you're going to want to push them to Amazon as opposed to a Shopify site because that's where people are, are comfortable. And so you've got to name this something very specific. And so you're going to create Amazon search traffic instead of try to piggyback on something else. And so I would make it like a something with the word mag in it like mag case or, or just something silly like Rhino case something. I would do a lot of research on the name. I think the name is incredibly important in this case, whereas most of the times I don't think the name is very important. Make it something very brandable like with a color or a shape or like purple rectangle or, or purple rhino or something to where when you go into Amazon today and you start typing it, there is no auto autocomplete. Like Amazon doesn't know where you're going with it. Yeah, because you can like it's just hard to link to things in short form video. So you just want to call it something so people know what to search for. Now then eventually you could have a Shopify site which is the same name and I would definitely recommend getting only a dot com of that name. Like not your name plus case but like just your name dot com. So then because some people are going to go to TikTok to search it, some people go to YouTube to search it, some will go to Amazon and some will go to Google to search it. You want to be creating all of that search traffic from a brand new invented term. I really, really like that about it because I've seen stupid short form videos of products like this that have 30 million views, 50 million views. Perfect case study for you. Kevin Espiritu. Do you know who that is?

No.

He founded the Epic Gardening Channel. He was recently interviewed on my first million and he sells a very viral product that's like a knee brace that helps you kneel in the garden better and they cannot keep them in stock. The reason why is because A it fills a need and B it is so viral video able. Right. It is just so easily, it so easily portrays the value proposition in five seconds or less, even three seconds. His video is just like some someone kneeling in the garden with a brace around it and it's like I get it immediately, I need it, I want it. It's springtime, I'm gardening Product, market fit, product audience fit, viral video fit, all of the above. So I really like the idea. For that reason, I. Why I don't like the idea is it could be copied. Okay. So someone could see your. Your viral video and then just start piggybacking. And I think if you're first, you will stay first, but they're just going to start chipping away at your market share.

Yeah.

And I don't like that you can't sell it for that much, because if you wanted to lean on paid ads for this, you need it to be like, at least a 50 product, which this is not. Right.

Yeah.

What do you think this would be at?

20 or less? I think it just has to be cheap.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It couldn't be like. Like try to make it like a bit of a luxury item or something that it was like, super nice.

And, like, you should have two versions. You should have like a super. Like a leather or pleather version and then like a plastic version. Okay. I think a lot of people will upgrade to the nicer version once they try the cheap version and see that they like it.

Okay.

But I do think this is a good idea. It's not going to be passive at all, but that's. I think it'll be more successful than what something passive might be.

Yeah. And it would be awesome. I mean, awesome. If this were something that eventually it would replace my, you know, my income that I'm getting from my job, you know, because right now I'm working full time, and that's the end goal is to create something on the side that eventually will allow me to quit my job.

Yep. Yeah. And I think it could. I mean, if you're excited about it. How long have you had this idea?

Ever since I. The Noah Kagan book came out. So when that book came out, I read it, and that's kind of what, like, spurred me to think. I'm gonna think about something that I have a pain point that I to fix. So that's kind of. So probably. How long's that book been out? Can't remember.

Months. Yeah. Are you like an ideas guy? Are you always having ideas?

Yeah.

Okay. I mean, that's okay. And this. If this is one that you just can't get out of your head, then I think that's sending a signal to its efficacy.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm an ideas guy, but a lot of them just come and go. But if it sticks around, then I got to do something about it.

Okay.

Yeah. So building it, like you're saying, just Kind of create some prototypes at home and start off.

Well, what.

What would you think would be the next step after that?

I would just. I would try to make like a hundred in your living room and try to sell those to friends and family in Facebook groups or whatever. Start doing a lot more market research in Facebook groups for people that might buy this and on Reddit and just learning either by posting and asking or just reading old comments what they would like this to look like. And then I would make a hundred. I would sell them to friends and family and ask for all the feedback in the world. Make changes. Maybe they're going to want round corners or something. Make changes based on that and then find out how long it takes you to assemble these things from raw materials to finished product and assign that into your cost. Like, all right, if I sell this for 20 bucks, it's gonna. If I pay someone $20 an hour, being conservative to put these together, I can do 10 an hour. That means they're probably only gonna do five per hour. So if I'm conservative on their wage and I'm conservative on the time, it's going to cost a dollar per labor to put these together. It costs $4 to make them. I've got a 75% gross margin. That's a really good margin. If I add in shipping, that cuts my margin to 50%. Do all that math and then start to play around with actually selling these on Amazon. And I would just list them on Amazon, kind of see how it goes. See if you can capture any organic traffic. And then phase three would be try to get this video in the hands of someone that can make it go viral. Just start DMing people or on your own personal account or make an account. Just. You definitely want to make an account just for this product. And then see if you can push some ads behind it on Instagram reels. And if you're. If your CPM on these ads is really, really low, then it means that Instagram is showing it for free to a lot more people because they're engaging with it and it's keeping them on the platform. Most times I don't recommend you push like Instagram reels via ads, but this is a. This is a paid product and that you will want to do that with this.

Okay. And you think this. It's better to do that than like, try to have something manufactured, like, in China or like designed and manufactured in China.

Yeah, I just. I would order the raw materials from China, but assemble them here because it's going to be Very expensive. Once these are assembled, to get them here in shipping containers. And it's. That just adds another layer of complexity. So let's say you're just putting. You're ordering identical boxes and putting three of them together, and then two magnets in between the three boxes and putting them together. It's going to be very expensive for them to be assembled in China and then shipped here. Like literally three times more expensive because of all the volume. Because when you ship stuff, you've got physical weight and then you have what's called. Oh, what's it called? It's like the weight, volume, the cost based on. I don't remember what the phrase is for it, but if it's very simple to assemble these, I would recommend doing it in house and being in control of that process. Because one thing that could sink you is if you know your first shipment of 10,000 of these are all put together.

Wrong.

That could, that could crush you. And then a competitor could swoop right in and take the number one spot.

Okay, cool. All right.

Yeah, man. Well, let me know how it goes. I want to hear. I'm excited about this for you. I think it's a good idea. I was prepared to tell you it was a bad idea. I don't. I don't think it is.

Awesome. Great. Thank you so much, Chris.

Appreciate you.

You're welcome.

Yep.

Good luck.

All right, thank you.

Yeah, bye. All right, I have no one else waiting right now. So Chase was going to join, but he has not joined. So I'm going to read some pre submitted filler questions. So. Let's see what we got here. So we've got a couple people on YouTube. They're interested to ask a question. So I'm going to do something I've never done and see if I can post this link in YouTube. And Joss or Cindy, maybe you want to join. We can see how that goes. Am I going to do another video on pet cremation or retail meat? Retail meat. Okay. Like quarter cows. I'm sure I will at some point, but I don't have it on like the immediate timeline. Yeah, let's see if we get some people to join here. I'll go ahead and read a pre submitted question while I wait. So this guy says, here's a good one. This is a topic suggestion for a future podcast. Something I see for sale occasionally are sales routes for things like tortilla brands or soda brands. I would also add like FedEx routes. The numbers are always. They always throw around, always seem too good. To be true, but at the very least I figured it would be cool to get your take on them. Loving the podcast, so keep it up. So I know exactly what you're talking about. You go to biz by sell and you say, all right, I want $200,000 per year profit businesses with the lowest multiple. Oh, this is a Mission Tortilla route in Northeast Texas that nets $200,000 a year and they're selling it for $400,000 a year. I don't like these businesses. I've looked into these businesses before. I don't like it because usually, if not all of the time, you're buying yourself a job, and a really sucky job at that. Usually to make those numbers work, you either have to do it yourself or you have to hire a driver at $75,000 a year, which comes with all kinds of complexities. My good friend Keith, former owner of Heartland Bread Co. The bane of his existence was delivering that bread and picking up the bread that never sold to all of the grocery stores. It's not fun. Like logistics is hard and so if someone's selling a business that's in logistics at an attractive multiple, I would stay far away from it. Especially since there are thousands of other industries with attractive multiples that you could buy into that have much less headache. So yeah, Let's go to another question here. Okay. All right. This person says, I'm very interested in AI and the potential you see with it. Is there any practical use, case or idea you have about starting a business related to AI, whether it be an AI agency implementation into existing service businesses, teaching people AI automation integration with zapier make. In essence, if you were to force to make money, slash start a business related around AI, what would you do? Specifically if you have limited capital, a lot of free time, but the ability to learn no code, software and technical things. Thanks. Great question. Here's what I would do. I would help business owners and individuals make LLMs Language learning models specifically from their email accounts. There's a big hole in the market and I think eventually it's going to get filled with Google or OpenAI. But right now these big companies are very afraid to tie AI to our inboxes because of the privacy concerns around that. But there are a dozen ways to throw something together. And so anytime I see an industry that's emerging where people are finding creative hacks and workarounds to put something together, that's usually a really big opportunity. And so I think there's a world where you could approach people like me that has an inbox which with lots of data in it. For instance, I raise money for RV parks and in one of my inboxes. Chris co founders.com that's the only one I use to email with potential investors or current investors.

Investors.

And they ask, they ask all of the same questions, 15 to 20 questions. How does bonus depreciation work? What's the minimum investment size? I would love for someone that could go into my inbox, export all those emails. And I've done this myself. It's grind. It is possible but it takes a long time and then it takes a long time to learn how to interact with that on a regular basis. Anyway, someone that could take all of my emails and segregate out the ones that are only with investors. Investors. And I don't want a chat bot. I want basically a repository of answers where I could just plug in answers anytime an a potential investor asked that question. I think there's a world where you can do that at a service as a service primarily to businesses that have employees that are all kind of asked the same types of questions. Chatbots have been around, they are around, but this is different. You need kind of like you can make FAQs out of your inbox or something, something like that. But I also really like the idea of Automation agencies charging 2 to $3,000 a month to basically be that person that that company calls on anytime they need an automation made. Maybe the automation doesn't use AI at all. Maybe it does so. So for Texas snacks I built this thing that will automatically email customers the day that their package arrives. And then when they email them it'll even include a tidbit about the city that they live in. So it does not look AI generated and it has really increased our repeat order rate because people feel like they're creating a one on one relationship with the brand. Whereas usually when brands send emails, it's full color, splashy, looks very professional, but it's not professional personal at all. And I think email is moving away from that. So to answer your question, I see two things help craft LLMs from AI and make the data in those LLMs very accessible and just automation agencies that may use AI and may not not because most small to medium sized companies have automation needs but they can't afford or they can't even justify hiring someone that costs six to ten thousand dollars a month. They'd much rather pay you two thousand dollars a month, maybe four thousand the first month and then fifteen hundred ongoing to fix things as they break because they will break. A couple more Pre submitted question. Chase, if you're watching this, we missed you today. I was excited about your question. I hope you feel guilty right now. Just kidding. All right, All right. I love this question. I'm 24w2 finance job ever eventually want to start a business of some sort of I'm married with a baby on the way in the fall which does limit my risk tolerance. However I'm not afraid to take smart risks. I'm looking to build something in off hours from work. A business that's promoted often is Amazon FBA or Retail arbitrage. I haven't heard you speak on this in the past and was curious your take could this be viable for making a five figure income on the side that could give me leverage to jump into something else or does the capped ceiling make it less attractive option compared to other alternatives? Would love to hear your thoughts but also if there are any go to steps you would take if you were in my position of looking to start in entrepreneurship. So all right. I have many thoughts on this. He's asking if he can use Retail Arbitrage or Amazon FBA or whatever to make money on the side. So the previous caller just asked me about this but he's doing something different. He wants to develop a real physical product that's unique that he sells on Amazon and if you remember I suggested that he assemble this in his house, import the raw materials from China and basically own the whole vertical except the logistics and the third party side of logistics which he's going to give to Amazon but shopify side he will manage himself. I own a third party logistics company and even I would not suggest to most companies that they outsource that. With rare exception. I don't like the idea of people using FBA or arbitrage in most instances to try to make money. I think this market is very crowded because of the fact that there are so many other 24 year olds that tried this, tasted some success. Maybe they made a $2,000 profit in a month and then they went to Instagram and they saw a guy talking about how he makes $200,000 a month and he thought I bet there's a lot more money in teaching people how to do this than there is in me doing this myself because man, this is actually kind of a grind. This is, you know, E commerce is hard. Like E commerce is not passive. It is very hard and you're competing with everyone in the world and so there is more money in teaching people how to do Amazon FBA than there is in starting Amazon fba. Now if you're a big company already doing it, great. Or if you want to invest a lot of time and money into research and development, importing stuff from China, that's one thing. But if you're just trying to make a side income, I don't recommend Amazon fba. Okay. Because you're going to be competing with everyone else that is buying a course from that 23 year old shirtless dude that posts pictures of himself with other people's Lamborghinis. Okay. I would definitely recommend starting something that you learn about on the Internet from, from someone who is not incentivized to sell you that thing. For instance, I'm always tweeting about home service businesses, about gutter cleaning, about seamless gutters, about lawn care, about pressure washing. And I'm not trying to sell you a course on how to start a pressure washing business. I'm going to show you in a 1500 word tweet how to do it yourself. And if you do it, great. If you don't, great. I'm not incentivized if you do that or not. Okay? So find people that are putting out good content encouraging you to start businesses that are not monetarily incentivized to get you to start that business. And that's probably going to be a good business. But that content is hard to find. Mostly it's on Twitter. Actually there's a lot on YouTube because people on YouTube are incentivized by YouTube to get more views. So YouTube can pay them. They're not, most of them are not selling courses directly. So I do see really high quality how to start a business content content on YouTube. But generally speaking there is a direct correlation between how kind of ugly a business is and how much profit you can make from it. Whereas there is also direct correlation between how sexy and passive a business looks and how much money you're likely to lose on it because of the fact that people are simply incentivized to make riches look very easy as the hook. So they can sell you course and then once you bought the course, they don't care what happens to you. They don't care if you win or lose. So those are my thoughts on that. All right, well I think that's a lot of content for today. So thank you for joining us on the current the Kerner office. For all of you that were tuning in live on YouTube, I appreciate you and do you know fulfilled by Tick tock. Someone on YouTube is asking, Do I know about fulfilled by Tick Tock. I really don't. Honestly. I'd love to be able to spat off some facts there. I do think that the E Commerce days in Tick Tock are very young, very early, and there's room, there's still a lot of room to make money there, whereas Amazon is like, it's tired at this point. So anyway, thank you to all that. We're live streaming and we will see you next time.