Next Level 281: What is a “Bitcoin Treasury” & The Future of Bitcoin Trading with Tillman Holloway

There's only three people that own bitcoin in this entire world and I can guarantee this. It's people who bought it, people who mined it, or people who stole it. Those are the only three people that have it.

Welcome to the Next Level Income show where it's our goal to take your income, your investments and your life to the next level. I'm your host Chris Larson. If you haven't yet, get a copy of our book for free at our website nextlevelincome.com. that's www.nextlevelincome.com. just click on the book link and I'll even send you a copy if you put your address in. We've got a fun podcast today with Tillman Holloway. Tillman is a former All American First Team All Big 12 guard at the University of Texas and he transitioned from a successful football career to over a decade of expertise in bitcoin and blockchain technology. Today, as the leader of Arch Public, Tilghman is driving the revolution in trading automation utilizing advanced features and crypto algorithms. Through strategic partnerships with renowned YouTuber Scott Melker and Gemini the the leading crypto exchange co founded by Cameron and Tyler Winklevoss, famous in the movie that talked about the founding of Facebook, Arch Public is now expanding its reach and influence. The company empowers traders with institutional grade rule based strategies that eliminate emotional bias, enabling users to confidently navigate both traditional finance and crypto markets, notably John Deaton, who is also a user of the company's software. Arch Public software removes the anxiety of predicting market movements, offering a solution where there's, there's no need for a crystal ball to predict the future, just data driven automated decision making. And we're going to dive into that as well as more in the podcast today. Tillman, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me. I appreciate being here.

Yeah, we talk a lot about real estate on the program, but something that we've talked about more and more over the past few years and the audience knows that I'm a big fan of is cryptocurrency and really bitcoin kind of at the center of that. So when your team reached out I was like, oh man, I want to talk to this guy personally. But even better, we get to have our conversation and share it with our next level audience. Tillman but before we dive in, we were talking beforehand about your background as an athlete and man, it sounds like you had a really cool childhood growing up in the Colorado Rockies out there.

Yeah, my parents, we moved to Basalt, Colorado when I was 12 years old.

Where my uncle lives. How. What a small world.

Isn't that crazy? Yeah, we did discuss that. It's a tiny world. I think there's probably, you know, maybe 10,000, 5,000 people that.

Not a lot of people.

Not a lot of people. Yeah. But we moved up here when I was, you know, just turning 13, and I grew up skiing, snowboarding. I was homeschooled. It was. It was quite the childhood. I have nothing to complain about. My parents did not. Did not leave me wanting for entertainment. I. I grew up outside in the wilderness, basically.

Wow. Yeah. You were a homeschooler before. Homeschooling was cool.

Yeah, I homeschooled because of athletic. And quite frankly, when we moved to the Valley, private Christian education was not available. And my mom was really passionate about that. She's an educator at heart and has been a teacher her whole life. And so she took it upon herself and we, we stayed at home and she ended up starting a school in the Valley, and it still runs today with I don't know how many 100 and 100 plus kids. But yeah, it's a local community school.

Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. My mom, my mom, my grandmother were both public school teachers, and I grew up. Grew up in that. In that environment. Yeah. And it's. I mean, it really is. It really is the key to our future. Right. Is. Is education. Yeah.

You spend so much time with the kids.

Yeah.

Needs to be productive.

Yeah. And now we get. Shoot, this is amazing. Right? We got, we got YouTube, we got podcasts. It's. It is amazing the amount of education that's available to today's youth that you and I didn't have. I'm curious. So you, you kind of went mainstream in sports, though. You played, you played football in college. And, you know, how is, how was that process going from homeschool to. To, you know, D1 college football player?

It was quite the transition. I'm not going to lie to you. It was like being thrown in the deep end of life. Texas is a big school. I think at the time I went there, it was, you know, as big as any school in the country. And yeah, we were the number one recruiting class in the country. So that obviously brought a ton of attention that I was not used to coming from small town basalt. And I did play football, Denver, for a Christian school called Faith Christian Academy. It's no longer around, but we won state championship, but it was nothing. I mean, I was not exposed to the scale at which Texas, you know, embraced football players and the Sport itself. So, yeah, it was quite the experience.

Yeah, that's impressive. And, you know, we chatted briefly about, you know, my boys playing lacrosse and, you know, the importance of team sports that you brought up, which I agree, you know, especially for young men today, I think, you know, it can be a challenge in the world as young men in a lot of ways, and we don't need to go too far down that path. But would love, love for you to share, you know, some of the things you learned, you know, through sports, through being part of a team that have now translated as, you know, you've. You've moved into a life of entrepreneurship.

Yeah, I know a few things that stand out to me. Number one, leadership and how important it is. Like, you know, a head coach like coach Mack Brown, who sets the tone across the team the way that he does with his peers. It's just. It's something that provides young men direction that don't have it on a lot of fronts. That society, overly complicated one being race. You know, you find yourself on a team with all sorts of socioeconomic backgrounds, all sorts of racial backgrounds, all sorts of religious backgrounds. There isn't a unifying front there other than that you're trying to accomplish the same goal together. Football field. And what a coach is responsible for is making that team unity stronger than the individual. And Coach Brown did a wonderful of doing that. And in the process, you find out as a human being that we're all the same and they're all uniquely gifted and like a facet of a diamond. And then if you can put aside your ego and hear someone from truly their perspective, there's knowledge and wisdom to be garnered there. And if you can do that across a front of 150 passionate people like what you have on a football team, I mean, you can almost get them. And we've seen it in sport. One of the things that I think we appreciate about sports the most is the underdog story. And these. And these teams that out of nowhere, because they have such team city, are able to win championships. You know, that's what we love about Tom Brady. Just look at his rookie picture and you're going, you know, this is the guy that makes everybody feel warm and fussy about what can be accomplished through teamwork and hard work, you know?

Yeah. I mean, you look at where Tom Brady came, and some people love him, some people hate him, and that's. That's. That's cool. That's one of the great things about sports. Right. But, yeah, his story is amazing. You know, Kind of coming, coming from, you know, not, not a high level. I forget even what, when was he drafted? He was drafted way down.

Last pick in the draft.

Yeah, I mean it's physically the last pick.

Like you couldn't get worse than him and then now you better than him. And whether you love him or hate him, I look at life through the lens of math and if you're looking at all the football players in the world on a scatter chart, he is an anomaly that's so far outside of all of the other dots. Like you have to pay attention to him. You have to acknowledge that he is, he's very, very unique. I can't remember how many championships he's won, but it's going to be a long time before somebody catches them, you know.

Oh yeah, yeah. And it's, you know, you brought up some really great points. You know, sports is really, you know, the, the, you know, in some cases the last bastion of true merit based rewards. You know, that's out there and it's, I love what you said. Like anybody can come up. There's so many great stories. Michael Lewis is one of my favorite authors. The author of Moneyball and the, you know, movie with. I think my wife likes that movie because of Brad Pitt. But I like the movie because of the author in the story. But no, it's a great, like you said, it's a great story of how, you know, if you take all the individual components and you put them together as a team and the sum of the parts is so much greater. You know, Tom Brady, Bill Belichick, you know, how they, how they pulled, you know, kind of these second string players together to create, you know, just this absolute dynasty.

Well, they make them. The coach used to say this before almost every single game. He's, he would come in the locker room and he'd get. These are pearls of wisdom. Like Coach Brown is like all hall of Fame. Only coach in the history of NCAA to, to win a hundred games at two different programs. Think about that.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

I did not know that. Wow.

Yeah. So he used to come in and go, you're not going to lose this game because you're less talented, you're more talented than the other team. You're going to lose this game because you don't want it more and you're not going to fight hard enough. We, I know you guys want it. I know you're going to try as hard as you can. The only going to lose this game is if you individually don't focus on Your job, and you don't do that job as well as I know you can do it. You guys do that. We win every game this season. And it gives you, in those high pressure moments, it boils it down to a simple task. Just do what you practice every day. We're going to be fine. You know, and that gives you that confidence as a young player that you couldn't garner for yourself without that type of leadership. Right?

Yeah. No, it's, it's so important in that mindset, you know, that you, you kind of touched on there, you know, the mindset of a champion and doing what you want. We've had sports psychologists come on the podcast, you know, over the past few years, and, you know, that's, that's one of the things that, that's like the number one thing that they say is, you know, how do you want to show up? Like, who, who do you want to be when you get out there? And it all boils down to, you know, do you want to show up as, as your best self and go out there and do that? And then actually, we've translated that into one of our family rules, which is do your best. Every day, do your best, and that's, that's all you're capable of. And sometimes, you know, your best on any given day is, is a little more, a little less than, than the day before. But, yeah, if everybody's out there doing their best as, as individuals, the team, it's, it's just amazing what teams really is. You know, when you were talking about individual sports versus team sports and, you know, cycling is an individual sport, but we came in as a club team in cycling. We weren't even an official team sport at Virginia Tech, where I went. And we ended up beating the number one ranked men's team at nationals just through, you know, working together as a team and pulling together, it was a lot of fun to do that. And those friends, I was just texting one here earlier today. You know, we're talking 25 some years ago and we're still friends today, and you, you form those, those bonds through life. So. Yeah, so important. I know that's not what you came on, on the show to talk about today.

I love talking about sports. It was a huge part of my life. I don't mind.

Yeah, yeah, no, it's, it is. There's. There's so many lessons that are out there. So you were saying that you've, you've been in the trading space for a long time. What was your first introduction? Because I, I was day trading as a junior in college. A lot of lost hours of sleep, but I was making a lot of money as a junior in college. It was a lot of fun. And then. So I'd love to hear how you got into trading into the stock market and then when did you transition into cryptocurrency?

Yeah, I got into trading, same as you. Jester Dormitory, University of Texas I was a finance major, so I was intrigued with the markets. My grandfather left me a little inheritance that I could play with and unlike you, I did not successfully make money. I lost all of that. I learned exceptional lessons and I, I think that's when I, I just saw the promise of independence that the markets can give you. That was very attractive to me. I wanted be able to own my own time, which I think is really what makes you wealthy in life. And the markets to me offer something, an advantage in that department that most other company, most other enterprises don't, don't offer or money making activities don't offer, especially when you measure it against how much scalability of income you can produce. Right. And so that, that always intrigued me and I, I fell in love with markets and, and have been passionate about them ever since. I think crypto for me came into the picture in late 2012, early 2013 when I owned a demolition company. I bought in. And I have always had an entrepreneurial bent. I always wanted to own my own business and that was a real easy for to understand business. And that primarily is around managing finance costs of your equipment against your, your pipeline of deals and making sure that you're paying off equipment in short periods of time so that, then your profit margins. Margins. So bottom line is, is I, we had that company, it was very successful. But 2008, real estate crisis hit and all of our projects just basically got put on hold for a year. I got to see the other side of what banks treat you like when you're, when you have overextended, when you have too much loans, you don't have the income, you know, when you're essentially in charge of a failing business. And it really, the bad taste in my mouth, it was so predatory and so vicious. And if you don't have a master's degree in that, you're at the behest of people who you thought were your friends and you've kind of trusted along the years to be there to help you in life. And so I, I just saw the, the ugly nature of that and it really stuck in my crawl, you know. And so I Carried that forward and I got introduced to bitcoin and I saw that it solved all those problems. It was a democratized level playing field for anyone and everyone in the world to participate in without doing any paperwork or without going through any gatekeepers. And that was something that if I looked at any disruptive technology that you could point to that had huge potential, like Uber and you know, whatever doordash, it's all about breaking down access years. And so this, I saw bitcoin immediately as a huge disruptor to the financial sector as, as breaking down access barriers and allowing people to innovate and integrate with a financial network that couldn't was censorship. Lists and permissions, permission lists and all of the intrinsic things that we love about bitcoin. But you know, the sovereignty of owning bitcoin and the appeal that, you know, there's only three people that own bitcoin in this entire world and I can guarantee this. It's people who bought it, people who mined it, or people who stole it. Those are the only three people that have it. Yeah, you can't say that about any ipo. You can't say that like those are all permission based access points. Did you get invited to Nvidia's IPO launch? No, I didn't either, but we both got invited to bitcoin's launch and we're still invited to bitcoin's launch and we will always be invited because work is rewarded in a proof of work network. And so when you look at the value of the potential value of a network that's owned by the people, for the people, there's kind of no turning back after that, in my opinion. So everything that I've done since then has been centered around Bitcoin or trading or breaking down access barriers through technology. And those are the things that I'm passionate about.

No, I love it. And my introduction, I mean, I knew about bitcoin being in the finance world, my MBA is in finance, so we've got some overlap there as well. But I was having a conversation with my friend, as we mentioned, Bob Burnett, who's been on the show multiple times. And I had the fortune of having an Austrian economics professor in my MBA program. And I loved it. He was great. He had the accent, the whole nine yards. And if people aren't familiar with Austrian economics, it's all about sound money and a very conservative view on money versus the Keynesian view of money in specific America and really the developed world today. And Bob and I are sitting there and I'm Recounting this story how, you know, I stopped going to this economics class because I love the professor, but it was too slow. So I'd read it, I'd do the work. I'd go once a week instead of all the classes. And I came in one day and turned in my work and I said, hey, I'm, you know, professor, I'm sorry I missed class. And he goes, I never said you had to come to class. And I was like, oh. I was like, great. I can go, you know, I can do my thing and kind of learn on my own schedule. And at the end of the semester, I get called in by the dean of students, and he brings me in and he goes, do you know why you're here? And I said, no, I have no clue. He goes, here to talk about your economics class? And I'm like, oh, no. I was like, I didn't go to enough classes, right? I'm like. I'm like, well. And I start to say, the professor said that I didn't have to go. I'm trying to cover myself, you know, And I go, oh, I talked to the professor. And he goes, oh. So, you know. And I go, what? Because he was smiling. And he goes, well, you got the highest grade in the school. And I said, really? I said, huh? I go, no, I didn't know that. What did you think? And I go. I go. I was like, nevermind.

I was gonna get reprimanded for my attendance record.

Yeah. But it was my. But the funny thing is it was my favorite class and I spent so much time learning about Austrian economics and that. And Bob Burnett and I are sitting there one night at a mastermind, and we stayed up late in the morning talking about it, and he told me all about the history of bitcoin. I was like, I got to get into bitcoin. This makes perfect sense. And it is phenomenal what it's done for people and really the freedom that it offers the world. And I feel like we're just getting started here in terms of it, but you've really kind of iterated here, Tillman. Bitcoin has now become much more mainstream. I mean, you can buy it, buy it through like Fidelity on an etf. And most, you know, most brokers now have access to those. But talk about the genesis of Arch Public and really what you do in the crypto space today.

Sure, yeah. Arch Public is a company that's focused again on breaking down barriers. If you've ever heard of high frequency trading or you've ever heard Another Michael.

Lewis flashboard, another Michael Lewis book Algo.

Trading or Algorithmic Trading. You know, everybody kind of knows it exists, but the, the company started with a central question of is why can't I get my hands on something like this? Why can't I have a suite of tools that allows me to pre program what I want to have happen and then I can detach my physically from the computer and have that, you know, executed on my behalf. And you know, if you look at any major hedge fund brokerage house that they have this inside of their suite of tools, but it's proprietary to their platform and it's proprietary to their higher net worth client. You can get your access but you can't ever get the code itself. And that was a problem for me because it requires me to trust that the algorithm's working with inside of a black box. So I built a company to change all of that. And so all of our software is user driven. You run it on your computer, you have physical control over all the parameters. It plugs into all of the major crypto exchanges, Gemini, Kraken, Coinbase, Robinhood. So you can keep your money in your brokerage account and you can plug in through API pools in our software and run it to your heart's content. And what we found is that once someone sees it, there's all of this, you know, light bulb type moment that goes off as to what the potential is. And our software is not a one algo. You can create hundreds of instances within it. So you can say if Bitcoin goes up by 4%, sell $500 worth. If Bitcoin goes down by 4%, buy a thousand dollars worth. Well, you just created a 2 to 1 bullish buy schedule that's going to harvest volatility as Bitcoin channels. Or you say, you know what, I want to buy on a DCA curve, but I want to buy on all of the bottom of red candles.

Well, that's something dollar cost dca, dollar cost averaging, which a lot of people are familiar with.

Yeah, yeah, dollar cost averaging. But one step further. So dollar cost averaging is I want to buy $500 worth of point every Tuesday at 9am right there. That's not using market data to determine whether Tuesday at 9am is a good day to buy. A better way to do our cost average is to schedule out how much money is going to go into any triggered event and then have something monitoring the exhaustion of big red candles. And you define what the length of a candle is and it's confirmed with Volume. And as the volume starts to shift outside side of that selling candle, for example, that's when you want your trigger event to take place. Why? Because the market's rich on the other side of the trade. You're going to get filled with better fill. You're going to get instant, no slippage trades on bigger volume than you could otherwise. And all of your DCA points are going to be at the bottom. Red candles. Like that's the, that's the ideal scenario and that's what our software does for customers exceptionally well.

Yeah, I love it. Yeah, you're putting, you're putting dollar cost averaging on steroids, which is, you know, privately. That's what I've discussed with, you know, like some of our coaching clients and different things. But yeah, this is way better than, you know, when you and I were trading in college and you're just, you know, you're trying to follow everything and do it manually and we did. We didn't have the technology at that point. At least people like, you know, people like you and I that probably had a, you know, a five figure trading account. Right. In college you don't have access to all these.

You have nothing.

Yeah, exactly. So this is amazing, but one of the things I'm really excited about is you and I were chatting about before the show and this is going to come out early November here, this episode, Tillman. But you're talking about the launch of your new fund, which mates two of my favorite asset classes, real estate and cryptocurrency and bitcoin. Yeah. So share a little bit about that. This is exciting.

Yeah, I love bitcoin. I think it's a value add to any traditional business. Why do I think that? Well, I think that Michael Saylor, if you need evidence, go watch his keynote speech at the Bitcoin treasury conference this last year. He proves that it's outperformed the Mag 7 by a factor of 2x. So what's that telling you? It tells you that, you know, if, if you believe that Bitcoin is on a power law curve and that we have yet to plateau, then you can assume that in the next few years is going to look similar to the last few years, minus some volatility. Right. And so essentially what our fund focused on is injecting Bitcoin as a Treasury asset to high cash yield, real estate, property acquisitions. So instead of taking a debt mechanism and leveraging that to buy more Bitcoin for a Treasury, we know there's a lot of really great pieces of property out There that have tax advantage to them to the tune of 80% accelerated depreciation in the first year.

Our favorite things. Absolutely. Exactly.

I mean, it's just a no brainer. And then on top of that, if you're taking the, if you're the landlord, the fund is the landlord and we're taking payments and we're putting all of that into bitcoin. Plus we have structured partnership deals with the businesses themselves to share 50% of their net operating income to buy more bitcoin. Then we have a vacuum cleaner that's just accumulating cash and appropriating that to the bitcoin treasury, which, you know, I've done a lot of analysis as to what the perfect ratio would be. And if you take historically over the last five years, if you took 5, 11% of your available investable asset, you know, cash, and you put it into Bitcoin, you've offset 100% of the inflation rot or erosion that you have on your capital. And so if 11% percent is what I would consider to be the bare minimum to preserve my purchasing power, you know, somewhere between 11% and 50%, if business can afford it, is I think, the sweet spot. And you look at some of the previous companies like Dillard's, JCPenney, these big retail outlets that were cash cows back in the day. If they had appropriated a lot of that upside to bitcoin instead of into, you know, their own growth curve, they would have diversified in a way that would have protected them from the inevitability of all businesses, which is you become irrelevant.

Yeah. And that's, I mean, and that, that really is, that really is the market cycle. Right. We watch these businesses grow to prominence. Some of them hit monopoly status. I mean, you and I, I mean, shoot, J.C. penney was everywhere when I was a kid. Yeah. You know, Sears, all these companies. And then, you know, the cycle turns, you know, even look at the auto industry, multiple different things. But you and you touched on two things, Tillman, that I'd like to drill down a little bit into to help the audience understand this. And these are, these are things that I've come to the same conclusion of. One is I feel like Bitcoin is an optimal asset to trade because of the volatility. Can you talk a little bit about that?

So our software allows you to set if, then scenarios both to the downside and the upside. So if bitcoin goes down by 5%, buy this many Bitcoin. If Bitcoin goes up by this percent, sell this many Bitcoin and you can dial it in one to one ratio where you're cashing out of every trade one to one. Or you can leave bitcoin in there and that would resemble what a covered call strategy look like where you're accumulating when you're out of the money for long term appreciatory potential and you're cashing out when you are in the money to take a yield. And so we think bitcoin and any crypto specifically is that volatility can be harvested very easily if you have the tools to do that. And so what happens is, let's say I'm wanting to appropriate capital into the markets and let's just take bitcoin for an example and I say I want to put $100,000 to work this year in bitcoin, I want to own a one bitcoin. If, if, if I just smash by 100,000 today, I have exposure immediately, right. If I dollar cost average in 10,000 over 10 purchases arbitrarily, then I have a blended cost curve over all of those averages. Well, what happens if the price dips and I have an instance that says buy Bitcoin on that dip, but also have an instance that says if it pops back up, sell 50% and get me some more cash. Well, if, if bitcoin just keeps dropping, what do you do? Well, your dollar cost averaging very effectively down the, the price curve and you're getting healthy exposure over a long period of time. And because the software allows you to segment your capital out, you're not ever putting all your eggs in one basket or one price bracket.

Yeah.

What happens though along that downtrend if the price goes up? Well, you're producing yield and, and that you're harvesting because that trigger event happens to the upside and you're cashing out some of those profits on that trade. And there's boxes where you can check in the software like don't ever sell my position below, below my cost basis. So you're essentially just dcaing intelligently until there's an upside volatility spike and then you're cashing out to the degree that you want to. And the more or upside volatility spikes there are, the more the cash is produced. And so if you find yourself in a trending channel where bitcoin just bouncing up and down a lot, you're able to produce a of potential with that type of price movement even though it's not moving up the, if you took that string of price movement and stretched it out. There's a ton of stored energy there.

Yeah. And if, you know, in a stock, you know, if you do that across and the stock goes up, it goes down, it goes up, it goes down. But it starts at 100, it ends at 100, you can actually make money on that stock. And a lot of people listening are probably familiar with the covered call strategy in the stock market. And what I love is your company has actually allowed investors and traders to automate this so they can make it automated. But also you mentioned take the emotion out of it, which I think is very important. And then the other topic that you brought up and we kind of glossed over but I think is very important because we're seeing a lot of companies, not just MicroStrategy or now Strategy and Tesla and other big name companies, but these companies are forming what's called a Bitcoin treasury within their business. Can you just dive, take a couple minutes and dive into that? Tillman, for those listeners, those audience members that may not be as familiar with it as you and I.

Sure. Because bitcoin has so much upside because it has a track record of 16 years of proving that upside. If you inject it into a failing business that has us, you know, a modest amount of margin to make up before it could turn successful, Bitcoin very effectively can be created into that and give you upside where there otherwise isn't. Right. So Bitcoin treasury companies are publicly traded entities have, you know, like Gamestop would be an example of one where they don't make money anymore. And maybe that's changing a little bit with these card tradable cards that they've dived into. But you know, Dillard's was a previous example. There are a lot of companies that are publicly traded that had a great run and they're sitting on a lot of cash, but they don't have any real market share that they're, you know, continuing to reap benefits from.

And so they're mature, stable companies that may not may have exited the growth curve or they're on the backside of the S curve.

That's right. So Michael Saylor was one of those companies, Strategy was one of those companies and he figured out a mechanism that allowed him to change his destiny. And what that mechanism was is he would issue a convertible note but borrow money from a lot of people, a lot of money. And he would hand them a note that said, you can convert these to shares of MicroStrategy. And so a lot of people took those because they knew the conviction that Michael Saylor had as it pertains to never selling Bitcoin. And so there was this trust bond that now strategy was an accumulation engine that an individual couldn't be by themselves. So it offered what you call a positive MNAV that you couldn't achieve. And an M NAV is just the, the multiple of net asset value is what it stands for. But it's basically like if the value of bitcoin on these treasury company's balance sheet and then you took the value of their market cap in share price, an M NAV one is them being equal. Well, Saylor found that he could trade upwards of 4m nav like 4x multiplier of what bitcoin holdings were worth. Well, the only reason why you would do that is you think that they can borrow more money than you can borrow and buy more bitcoin at a, an accelerated rate which he proven to do exceptionally well. Well beyond what I thought he could have done from a capital placement.

It's been impressive.

It's been, it's been impressive. You're talking about billions of dollars and you're talking about every two weeks, every, I mean just, you know, billion dollars a year, billion dollar two billion a year. It's been very, very impressive. A lot of people have followed in those footsteps. Their performance has not been as impressive. And so you're seeing people chasing, trying to save public companies because they can borrow money on this debt mechanism and you know, it may work for. Until it doesn't. There's, there's a mechanism whereby, which you can determine the fair and equitable value of those entities, which is the M Nav. If it's a 1,1 M Nav and you don't think they're going to sell Bitcoin, you're buying to me at a very, you're buying Bitcoin. Right. But just in a different vehicle. If it's a training above MNAV of one, you're betting on management. And so to the degree that you want to bet on management, bet on management. It's great. And I bet on management all the time.

Yeah, yeah, wonderful. Well, we're coming near the end of our time, Tom, and I'd be remiss if I didn't give, give you a chance and also the audience a chance to hear about Arch Public, which you guys are doing, how investors, traders, our audience can learn more about your company, the tools that you have as well as your new fund that you have coming out.

Thanks so much. Yeah. If you go to archpublic.com you can schedule a time to talk to one of us, one of our team members and they will go through the setup process walk you through how to get the trading algorithms up and running. They are absolutely free to use up to $10,000 of tradable value per year. So if you're less than $800 per month in investable monies into crypto, you can use our software for free forever. If you are somebody that's higher net worth and one more complex strategy that is going to place a lot more capital. There's tiers that we have in inside of our concierge program. There's absolutely zero pressure. Try the software. If you find value in it and you want to come into the concierge program, please reach out. But other than that you can get started and see kind of behind the curtain of automation self for absolutely no commitment. So go to our website archpublic.com Sign up to talk to one of of the team members and we'll you'll be in good hands. We'll take good and get you set up. Even if you only use the free software, we'll still hold your hand and get you up and running.

Awesome Tillman. Thank you for that. And yeah please check out the website. Check out Arch Public really cool tools. It's it's worth just for the education value and diving more into what Tom and I have been discussing today. Tom and this has been a fun conversation. We can go on for another hour with this. I look forward to catching up with you next time out. I'm out there in the in the Aspen area visiting with my family and thanks for taking the time to talk to our audience today.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me. I look forward to catching up in person.

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