Another One Rides The Bus

Another one rides the bus. This is the Elevate Pult Podcast, and I'm your host, Chrissanne Long. And with me, as always, is Rob Arturi.

Hello.

And we're joined with my dear friend Tom Phillips, the director of the Citrus Connection.

And we're so happy to have you, Tom.

Oh, I'm happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

So let's start just with some softballs.

Let's talk about how you got to Polk County, how long you've been here. Talk about Michelle and the boys for a second. Just give us, give us the Tom Phillips bio.

You got it. So I'm 42 years old. I came to Lakeland 8 years ago. I'm the executive director of the Citrus Connection, which is the countywide bus service, and actually came down here for the job. So I was 34 years old. The agency had gone through some changes. They were looking for something different. I guess they were looking for somebody younger. And so I was able to get the job. My wife Michelle and I have been married for 18 years. She works at Florida Southern College. She's at probably one of the best-kept secrets in Polk County. She's at Roberts Academy, which is a school for dyslexic children that's on Florida Southern's campus. She teaches 7th grade and that's run by Tracy Tedder, Joe Tedder's wife, Dr. Tracy Tedder.

Right.

And I have 2 boys. One is at McKeel and the other is at Lakeland Montessori Elementary School. So they're both public charter and we've been really happy here in Lakeland.

I happen to know that the decision to move to Lakeland or to Polk County was a little bit of a surprise to Michelle.

Yeah.

I'll say.

Yeah.

So, yes.

So the selection process was that they got down to the last couple of candidates and they wanted to do the typical kind of meet and greet and come down with your family and make sure this is a good fit and let us meet you. And my wife said, no, the kids are in school. I'm not going to go. "So why don't you go down and if they're serious about it, we'll all make a trip down as a family." So I came down, rented the cheapest renter car I could find, stayed in the Quality Inn and came to the interview and loved it and fell in love with Lakeland. And the board had done this really neat thing where they had arranged to have a Polk County who's who take you around and kind of sell you on the community. I drew Ann Furr, former Lakeland City Commissioner.

Yep.

Oh my God, did she sell me on Lakeland and Polk County, right? So she's in the— we're in the car, we're driving around. I'm taking pictures of Common Grounds, Tiger Town, Lake Mirror, just, you know, sending all these great pictures to my wife, selling only the best parts of Lakeland and Polk County. And they offered me the job on the flight back. So she moved here blind.

She had not been here.

She had not been here ever. So came down and we lived in the Ramada at I-4 and 98 for 3 weeks until our rental home— no, go ahead and laugh, Rob, it's okay, right? Site of the former Hooters Hotel, which made it even better. They're constructing the Waffle House that's there now in the morning and the crew is living there. So we're rushing down in the morning to get the kids their free breakfast, right? Before—

did you check like TripAdvisor or something before you—

oh no, no, this is Great, right? It just gets worse. I've got a 140-pound Weimaraner that I'm sneaking in every night, right? I'm the new executive director of an agency that was in flames, bringing my dog to work with me, and all of our crap is still strapped to both of our cars because our house isn't going to be ready for 3 weeks. So that was my introduction to my team and the community. But we look back on it now and we really laugh.

And what I love is I know you've shared that Michelle, is just as much in love with Lakeland and Polk County as you are now. But at the beginning it was a little rocky.

Yeah. So there's #LoveLakeland, right? So for our first couple years here, it was #LoveLakeland Monday through Friday because every weekend we were at Disney or doing other things. But the community really grew on us and her finding that community of Florida Southern has been great.

Yeah.

And so we've really come to love and embrace Polk County. And one of the things that we love the most is just how much it's changed. When we moved here, Polytech was just opening up, and all I heard as somebody new to the community was, oh, this used to be orange groves, or this used to— when I bought my house in South Lakeland, it was all orange groves, right? And so I took my wife and kids out there because I said, we need to take pictures of this because one day it's not just going to be this weird white structure. And when we got out there, literally there were cows still like 2 feet of the IST building. I mean, it was still pastureland. And so just to see the growth that's occurred out there is just to me, absolutely amazing. So it's an exciting time to be here.

Well, I'm just going to say whoever was on the search committee and interviewing and recruiting Tom from Chicago—

Chicago, right?

It was Chicago. And it was Don Salvage. Don Salvage was the board liaison to hire me. He's a Titan. Love the man.

Yeah.

And so he, the board was great, but he was really the one responsible for bringing me here.

He moved to your site, or your wife's site unseen from Chicago.

Yes. I may have also lied and told her that there was a Whole Foods and there wasn't, but it was kind of at the time, like there may have been a few white lies about moving here, like, but that's the one that, you know, 8 years later still sticks.

Yeah.

But now we have GreenWise. Oh yeah. So that's great. So she's great.

Okay, good.

We're good.

Perfect.

We're good. So thank you.

Well, my hat off to you, Don, if you're listening for doing such a great job of recruiting Tom, because I think we couldn't have brought a better person down and the family is awesome as well. So kudos to Don Selvig.

I'd like to thank the general manager of the Ramada for looking the other way for 3 weeks as I snuck my 140-pound Weimaraner up to the 3rd floor.

There's a statute of limitations on those things.

I think you're good. If you're in Ramada, do not stay in room 318. It still smells like dog.

All right. So do your thing with the editing.

I just got a visual that—

oh, I'm not editing any of that. I got a visual of that National Lampoon's Vacation when they go to Wally World with all the stuff on the car and the family truckster.

It was great. And at the time, the kids were at Lakeland Christian School, right? And which is a phenomenal institution. We just transitioned to the public charter school system for a variety of reasons. But imagine my wife in the carpool line at Lakeland Christian School with all of this stuff strapped to the car.

I mean, it was just—

Wait, do you have any pictures? We need him in the show now.

Every Christian school probably has pictures.

Who are these people?

This is what you don't let in.

Wow.

Wow.

Wow.

Okay. Well, let's, let's start talking a little bit more about why we invited you to come on the show.

Sure.

You shared some things with me before the show, and I just kind of want to read what you wrote, and then we can start there and weave down the path we want to take. So one of the main things that I keep hearing over and over and over again lately is, is the amount of unprecedented growth that Polk County is, is looking into. So Polk County is experiencing unprecedented growth. Currently at 686,000 residents, Polk is expected to hit 1 million residents by 2044. East Polk County is expecting to see 114,000 new citizens, roughly the population of Lakeland, in the next 5 years. As our community transitions from largely small urban and rural to urban, how do we plan to meet the opportunities and challenges of this growth in a constructive way.

So I want you to just kind of tell me what your responses to the question you actually posed should be as far as from the community, from the Citrus Connections side of things.

Sure. So that really goes back to 2014, right? And we'll start with the My Ride, My Roads ballot initiative. And these are what I call BHAGs, right? Big, hairy, audacious goals.

Right.

And so—

Isn't that a Jim Collins— I think it's a Jim Collins. I've read that somewhere.

Yeah, it's definitely not a Tom Phillips.

I've known a few bhags in my day.

And, and so we recognized that, that when we were going to hit a million citizens, that public transportation is vitally important. Right? Right now, Polk County is the 7th poorest suburban area in the United States. 17.7% of our population's at or below the poverty line. So approximately 202,000 of our residents are at or below the poverty line. 86% of the people, Chrissanne, who use the Citrus Connection are transit dependent, meaning they don't have access to a personal use vehicle. 56% of our rides are for employment. So these are people who are using the bus every day to be able to get to and from work.

Right.

And so we launched an unprecedented campaign back in 2012, which was called My Ride, My Roads. And it was really a visioning process for how were we going to deal with the growth that's in Polk County, right? And how are we gonna deal with that from a holistic transportation perspective? And if we're gonna look at that from a holistic transportation perspective, I can't be selfish as the transit director and say that everybody's gonna ride the bus. 'Cause Rob, if I'm gonna get you on the bus, it needs to be 3 things: fast, frequent, and fun. And air conditioned. And air conditioned. Okay, 4, right? And we don't have the frequency right now and we're not fast because we don't have express buses, right? So, getting to the point where I'm going to get you out of your car is extremely difficult.

Right.

But we need more mass transportation.

Well, and I want to add to that, too, because you and I had this conversation years ago and the infrastructure isn't there either. Like the fact that where I live, it would take me probably 35 minutes on foot or if I had a bike to get to a proper bus stop for where I actually live. So even though I don't live in an area that is accessible easily by bus, there are a lot of people who probably are in the same situation but need that opportunity.

Exactly right. And you're making a great point, Chrissanne. We call it the first mile, last mile problem, right? So how do I get from my home to the bus stop? And then once I get off the bus, how do I get from the bus stop to where I'm going?

Right.

And there are innovative partnerships that are, that are out there with Uber and Lyft and birds and scooters and those kinds of things. And that's probably a whole separate podcast.

Yeah.

But so we knew we needed to have this big leap forward and we needed to have this, this community conversation. So in 2014, we went out and we said, let's go ask the community. Let's go have a community conversation about what does good quality public transportation look like to you? And we called it My Ride. We wanted that ownership over people. What does your ride look like? And so we went out to all 17 municipalities. And we went out into unincorporated Polk. We had over 100 listening sessions and we actually went out and asked people in each community, what does good quality transit look like to you? So we let the commissions know and the county commission know and the city commissions know that we were gonna do this. We just wanted to understand what good transit looked like for the community.

Mm-hmm.

We did the normal show up at the library at 6 o'clock, right? Show up at city hall thing.

Mm-hmm.

You put, you get anybody in government on this podcast, they're gonna tell you the same. You pretty much get the same people.

Right.

Right.

Right.

The truly passionate folks or the caves.

A lot of retired citizens, a lot of people who had been, you know, involved and are just still continuing to follow along with the story of what's going on with their city. But yeah, you're right. It's the same, the same people.

Right.

And then my favorites are the caves, which are Citizens Against Virtually Everything.

Right.

That's a good one.

So, So we knew we had to do it different. So with Publix permission, we watched— we walked Publix grocery store aisles. We went to Waffle House. We went to sporting— kids' sporting events. We went to barbecue competitions and talked to people, literally having sandwich boards with like pictures of what transit was and saying, what does good quality transit need to look like for you? Right. And then at that point, we took all of that data and we designed 19 specific recommendations about what good quality transit looked like in each of these communities. One for each of the 17 municipalities in Polk that was tailored to each of the communities.

Mm-hmm.

One for how do we interact with Tampa and Orlando, which was express. Everybody wants express buses or wanted express buses to the airport every other hour going to the Tampa and Orlando Airport from Lakeland and from Winter Haven. And then we had one for how do you travel in unincorporated Polk County and connect with the cities.

Okay.

That took about 18 to 24 months.

Okay, wait, so stop for a second. It took you 2 years.

Yes.

Setting this whole thing up.

Yeah.

Going, going and listening and talking and getting the feedback from the citizenry.

Yes. Now it's a lot of waffles. It's a lot of waffles. He gained a lot of weight. But understand that we were doing this countywide. So I want to give your viewers perspective, right? This was not just a Lakeland-centric project that would have taken much, much shorter period of time. This was—

don't you have a staff of 400 people to go out and do all of this in like a week? Yeah, we had like 3.

Okay.

And most of it was the same 3 people. And so then we took this, put it together, and went to each of the 17 municipalities and said to the commission from the dais, and I think the power of the dais is extremely important to understand, and a lot of people misunderstand the power of the dais when you're presenting, not when there's a public comment, but when you're presenting. To a commission, right? And understanding that you're addressing the commission with an idea. We said, here's what your citizens— Lake Alfred, here's what your citizens— Lakeland, Winter Haven, Auburndale County Commission, here's what your citizens told us good quality transit looks like to them. Is our compass pointed in the right direction? That's the only question we asked.

Okay.

Not a price tag. Not, we want your support. Is our compass pointed in the right direction?

Right.

And all of the municipalities and the county commission said, yes, your compass is pointed in the right direction.

All of them.

All of them. All of them at this point. Right. We haven't asked for their endorsement yet. There's a great story behind that. So we took that back, put a price tag on to everything, and then went back out to the commissions and said to each of the city commissions, here is my ride, here's the price tag that goes along with that. And the other half of the referendum, the other half cent was, was my roads. Which was a half cent that was going to go towards county roadway infrastructure and maintenance. At the time in 2014, the county was running a $20 million deficit just to maintain, Rob, the roadways that it currently had. There's no money for roadway expansion. There still isn't. Just to maintain what they had. So the other half was roads. So I want to give my counterparts at the county also accolades because they're doing the roads part. As we're doing the rides part.

Okay.

So we put the price tags together and then we went to each of the 17 municipalities and we said, is this something that you would support?

Right.

And they— 16 of the 17 said yes.

Okay.

The only one that said no was Davenport, and that was Mayor Darlene Bradley. She's the one that got arrested for the misuse of the disabled placard. So, okay, maybe she's upset. Maybe she's using the bus now, but not an endorsement that we necessarily cried overnight.

Oh boy.

And so we took that information forward. At the same time, we were holding community workshops with the business community, with the social service community, and making sure that we understood that as well.

Right. Okay.

So as we got these endorsements from the business community, from the social services community, because what the social services community, what VISTI and ElderPointe and Faith in Action North Lakeland, and, and the arts community need from transit is completely different than what Publix needs from public transportation or what Well Dine or Southern Wine and Spirits needs from public transportation. Right, right. They're 24-hour operations. And so we wanted to make sure we had, we had encompassed all of that feedback. So when we went to the county commission and asked them to put this on the ballot after 2 years of work, to put the 1-cent sales surtax on the ballot, there was no opposition that stood up and spoke against putting the issue on the ballot.

Right.

Because they knew what your direction was. They knew what you wanted to do with it.

We had carried them, right? We had not carried them, but we had informed them. They understood the process that we were going through and that everyone was being brought along for the ride, so to speak.

Yeah. No surprises. They knew what was coming.

There were no surprises. Right.

Well, so as you're walking through this, it's more aligned with how the grassroots mindset that I have works. And it's—

so I always have the discussion of the top-down versus the bottom-up.

It is so textbook that you're looking at the bottom level, you know, to build out what do the people need, what are the people we're actually here to serve want, and how are we going to build that for them step by step by step. So it's very different than that top-down mindset. And really the trigger for us inviting you on the show was kind of watching how some recent discussions had gone sideways on social media. So I want Rob, I want you to kind of frame that up for me.

I want the audience to know exactly, I guess, what our agenda is, if that's a word for this discussion at this point.

Sure. I think past couple of weeks in Lakeland have seen some interesting events.

So call it out. Be direct. What are these things you're speaking of?

I'm talking obviously, maybe not so obviously about the issue about the Cleveland Heights Golf Course and which spilled over into the theater.

Right.

I'm just gonna, I'm just saying this because I wanna make sure any listeners who are, this is their first podcast. Right. Right. We've got other episodes that we're talking about, you know, but let's pretend someone just finds the podcast today for the first time and doesn't really know what the heck's going on.

Sure.

So last 2 weeks we've talked to Bob Donahue from the city, Steve Scruggs from LADC, and what we've seen in the evolution online has gone from, hey, did you hear what happened in the Lakeland Commission presentation by Steve Scruggs from the LADC talking about different options? And what happened was it was a mention of obviously different things, different potential opportunities, including modifying or leasing out or outright closing and bulldozing and developing the land that is currently the Cleveland Heights Golf Course, a public golf course. Uh, in addition to that, there's property that, uh, the community theater is on, same type of thing. All of this turned into rather overnight, uh, somewhat of hysteria over Oh my gosh, these things, it's imminent.

Right.

This is happening.

Right. It went from a proposed idea to, oh my gosh, something that I love is going to be taken away from me. And I think that there's a variety of reasons for that. And I think we're going to talk about some of that. But a lot of it comes down to communications or lack thereof. But I want to also look at— so if this is the first episode, go back and listen to the last two because it might give you some more clarity.

Context.

But some of this, I think, you know, that I want to talk about, and we have Tamer on the show, not because we want to talk about the city buses per se.

That's too bad.

That's another show.

That's a whole nother show.

For sure.

We're having him back.

I'm booked for episode 348. Ting nien.

Exactly.

We won't wait that long.

There'll be a bus right to the studio by then.

At that time.

So, but the reality is Tom had shared with us some really interesting concepts and ideas for communication, one of which he just described to you, right? So they had one embark on a project and they took a certain route. My thought process is I think we tend to demonize certain groups. We tend to elevate other groups depending upon our own preferences. None of this is productive. So I think as a community, we need to work together to find the most effective ways to communicate.

Right. And I think that Tom's example is a really good example to help us to see another way in a way that will maybe not even, you know, and we're going to continue the story now, but it's not necessarily about the success or the failure of the effort. Right. So, Tom.

Yeah, sure. So you got to use his cool metaphors like BHAG.

So what Chrissanne Long is alluding to. For the listeners is My Ride, My Roads. 3 years of work was an abysmal failure.

70-30, right?

We failed 70-30, right? It's the worst failure in Polk County. I'm the most successful failure.

Wait a minute, wait a minute.

70-30.

Wait a minute, Tom, that is not the worst failure in Polk County. We're not gonna go down that rabbit hole.

Okay.

But let's just, if you're not living in Polk County, if you're thinking—

Referenda. Right.

Okay.

Referenda results, worst ever.

Right. Much, much smaller pool.

Yes.

Right.

Go on.

So, so, so to Chrissanne's point, Right.

There were weaknesses in our strategy because we took so long. Right. It gave the opposition the time to be able to ramp up to just absolutely crush us. Right. We misunderstood. Although we were engaging our local partners, we failed to understand the vehement opposition to increasing the sales tax from the Florida Retail Federation, which is a statewide organization.

Right.

And they were very dissatisfied with our proposal, right? So having all of that time and going through all of that process gave time for there to be a ramp up. But we had a plan B, right? And so we were very public in saying as we were going through this process, if My Ride My Roads fails, it's not the end of the world. Mass transit needs to continue and county roadway infrastructure needs to continue. So our plan B was to consolidate the duplicative services. And Rob, I know you're a small government guy. The county had its own transit system, right? And we had our own. There's duplicative services there. So we went to the county commission in March of, of 2015, failed in November of '14. March of 2015, we're back in front of the county commission saying, all right guys, it failed, dust off. What do we want to do? Do you want to continue to have mass transit with your employees, your pension liability, your costs associated with that, and you can continue to do that. You can subcontract it out to a for-profit carrier who can definitely do it for less than we can. You may or may not lose quality control, but your employees that have been here for some 20 to 30 years are going to lose their Florida Retirement System pensions or have to retire early. Or you can merge with us. We'll join the Florida Retirement System, making sure that your employees keep their pensions, benefiting the Citrus Connection employees in the the fact that we didn't have a pension program. And I want to be clear, we didn't buy in our years of service. We started at year 1, right? But we now are part of the Florida Retirement System, and we have been able to deliver more service to the residents of Polk County for less money while maintaining a good quality of life for our employees. And that additional savings, Chrissanne, goes back to meeting that growth in the 27 corridor. So because we've been able to save money, the county thankfully has— and thank you to the county commissioners— has reinvested that money in the 27 corridor. Even though we spent 2 years, 3 years ramping up for the BHAG, even though— so good— My Ride My Roads is desperately what we need to get out of our suburban poverty issue, right? The county still benefited, right? Because we went through the process. We went through the process the right way. We were inclusive and we had a plan B.

Right. So, and you advanced the conversation to keep the dialog open and moving forward instead of getting it just basically shut down. Correct. You know, like if, you know, I don't like how slow progress actually has to go because I'm a little bit more of a, you know, let's get it done, let's move. But I think your respect for the process has set you up for success in that, you know, with your Plan B and with, you know, the Dixieland Road Diet and other options and opportunities that are, that are furthering the effort.

Right. And because we created these customized solutions and had these community conversations, communities have come back to us and Lake Alfred has said, hey, if we are able to attract this business, what are you able to do with transit? Or Winter Haven says, we need a bus stop here. Are there things that you can do? So there have been lots of just micro things that we've been able— just moving bus stops, getting bus benches where they need to go, opening up that community dialogue has advanced transit in all these tiny ways that I'm not even aware of as the executive director.

Right.

But we've opened these dialog channels. So what I was talking to Chrissanne with on social media and the reason that I reached out to her was what was so concerning to me or so difficult to watch for me was that nobody seemed to have seen what was coming. There hadn't been a community conversation, right, about the presentation. And so to me, I think that the reaction is not good for the community, right? It's time wasted. It's people scared. But to me, from a human perspective, it's completely understandable, right? Because you're just picking up the newspaper or your phone's ringing and you haven't heard boo, right? Right.

About your home or your phone calls or the things that are, that make you love Lakeland or love Polk County, or this is why I invested in this place.

And now there's a threat that this is going to go away.

And of course you're going to react to that.

Right. And so to me, the process of public policy is so important. The work that the LADC has done in the 8 years that I have been here and the work that Mr. Scruggs has done is phenomenal.

Right.

Absolutely phenomenal. I mean, County Line Road had nothing on it when I moved here, and now it's just businesses. There are are tens of thousands of people that are employed due to the LEDC.

Right.

And, and I think all of those projects have to happen in secrecy, right? Because, or in very close quarters and conversations because Lakeland, Polk County, we're competing against the world.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Let alone Tampa and Orlando. Right.

So let's, let's go, let's go a little bit further in that because I think that's important. We are fighting with two problems here. All right, there's an inherent communications issue that part of it we can fix. We can do the things like you did with a campaign going out and actually with a grassroots approach to changing policy. And then there are those things where you can't because on the corporate side of things, when you're as a municipality, if you're going to offer incentives or try and lure business into your community to enhance the local economy, you're not the only one doing this. This is being done all over, just as you mentioned. So you don't want to show everybody your hand because then Hillsborough might say, "Well, we'll give you all that plus one." So these things have to be done pretty close to the chest. And then, but what happens is we make these inferences. We always assume the worst because if you didn't know anything about this, you assume that it was a secret and secrets are bad. But in reality, there has to be some degree of secrecy with these things, right? We'll call it confidentiality. So if you call it confidentiality, that has a whole different— people like confidentiality.

Confidentiality.

They don't like secrecy.

Right.

Right. Explain to me the difference and I'll give you $100. The point is, is that all of this comes down to communication and how we present these things. I wanna point out to listeners that you talk about the, the My Ride being a, a failure, right? It didn't fail in my opinion, because anybody thought that the ideas that you wanted to do were bad. I think you went out You listened, you talked to people, and they said, "This is what we want." And in the end, they didn't want to pay for it. That's a very, very important distinction, and it's one that we almost never make in these things. We always talk about, "Well, I think they should have painted the buses blue." And, "No, I think it should have been green." None of that matters. It doesn't matter how many people you talk— 'cause it wasn't that. Those were good ideas. They were farmed from a broad base of people, and in the end, people said, we want all of this stuff, we just don't wanna pay for it.

Right?

Yep.

And that's where you lost. And there's no way to beat that. And, and because you can't just, you can't do it for free.

And I don't know if Tom heard the previous episode, but we actually referenced Aaron Killebrew's voice from the commercials of working within the budget, you know, working within the money that we actually have and making that a point in the, and the advertising that you do, because that is the whole process by which the, transit runs. We don't run transit on private dollars. We run transit on public dollars.

Right. You want a town car? Well, then you have to pay for a town car.

Absolutely.

You want a bus every 5 minutes and you have to pay for it.

And so, and so, Rob, you're right. You're talking about the conversation about what does the community want as compared to what does the community want to pay for.

Exactly.

So, so let's look at that within the context of the conversation as it could or maybe have occurred with the community theater and the Heights, you know, looking at that and having a conversation with them and saying, hey, I need to address your board. We've got this idea as an organization. We're looking at the lakefront. It's 68 or whatever the quote number was, percentage of the property of our greatest asset is owned by the city. And we think this could be good for the community. Let us come and present some of our ideas to you. About what we're thinking for your community theater. What would have the likely outcome have been? My thought process is, is that about half the people sitting in that presentation would have started firing off emails or making phone calls directly to either influential people within the city of Lakeland or the commissioners themselves. And it would have started the controversy, right? And it would have started the controversy very early. And then you would have had that with each of the proposals as it moved forward.

But it also— I always like to say we need to begin with the end in mind. So if we are going to sell this or do this or make this new change, what are we going to do as a result?

So we have a community theater. If we're going to sell that property, what are we going to do with it? Because it could have been a win if, if we walked in the door to have a conversation with the community theater's board and said, hey, We have this idea, we have this other space over here. Let's talk about how, how, how awesome it could be. Look at, look at the opportunity here.

What do you think?

And then, wow, I would love to have this brand new space or this really cool location or 20, you know, 21st century technology.

Or maybe a brand new building at a different location paid for not by tax dollars, but paid for by the revenue generated from selling a property that had appreciated in value. I don't think anybody at the theater would oppose that.

No, I mean, they, it would've, it would've been a change and nobody likes change.

Change, but it would've been presented in a way that was palatable and not immediately rejected and a feeling of threat following it.

Right. Because the process is important, right? Right. It's getting people to understand that there can be win-win scenarios or there might be a win-lose scenario, but at least by having the conversation, we've advanced that community. And whether the Lakeland Community Theater stays there forever and it sits on what is eventually $50 million worth of property and never gets sold, or it does move and Rob's vision, for example, happens. Either way, no damage is done.

Right.

Everything is messaging. So in, in my example, in that particular example, there is consideration for all the parties involved, or as many as you can. Yes. As Chrissanne said, people don't like change. Some things are inevitable. You can't please everybody in government. That's a fool's errand. But if the people involved who are going to be the loudest and most threatened by a random proposal to just sell it out from underneath them, if they feel as though you are still engaging their interests, they just want to be heard. They want a voice. They want to know they have some representation. And I think that that's an area where we need to do better.

Right. And I think of a recent example outside of the Citrus Connection where I thought there was a successful community conversation. I believe there had been a number of individuals who unfortunately had lost their lives around the Clubhouse Road area. Area, uh, because of a lack of lighting and a lack of sidewalks, right? And, uh, I think the world of Commissioner George Lindsey. He's on my board, but he's just also an excellent individual. And there was a real community conversation, from my understanding, from what I read in the newspaper, about, uh, levying a special assessment, uh, to be able to put in lights and sidewalks and those types of things to be able to make it more pedestrian-friendly and more pedestrian-safe. And when it came time to go ahead and enact the special taxing unit or assessments or whatever it was, the community largely came out and said to the commission, no, we don't want this. And so the county commission said, okay, we're not going to do this. That to me is again, a great example of a community conversation that occurred because in this case, because of a horrible tragedy, a series of horrible tragedies, right? Sure. But to Rob's point, here are the solutions. Here's what we can do, and here's what it's going to cost and one way that we can pay for it.

Right.

And the answer for the time being is we don't want to pay for it that way.

Right.

But the conversation will continue, and I think that people feel like they've been heard.

It's the trust that you have to build in the position that you're in, Tom, because you are responsible for the direction of public policy. You're listening to the people because those are the people who keep you in your position. The difference is there's a nuance here because this is a very private-funded group of people who don't have maybe the skill or the background or the communication experience to know how to have that dialogue in a way that's going to not feel threatening. I think that's the outcome for me is everybody felt like it was a threat. As opposed to how you handled it. You brought it from, you know, from the grassroots direction.

Well, and I think that Rob alluded to it a little bit in that, in my experience in public policy, is there's always going to be blowback and there's always going to be discomfort. Sure. As good of a job as I think we did on My Ride, My Roads, right? We didn't touch Joe Sixpack, right? The guy who goes to work every day, he knows exactly the price of his Budweiser six-pack. He knows how much his number 3 value meal costs every day, right? He wants to make sure that his mortgage and his taxes are low. He wants to make sure that his wife loves him, right? And he was outraged when My Ride My Roads was put on the ballot, right? And he voted no, put a sign in his yard, didn't reach him. It's not gonna happen, right? That's part of public policy. And I think that to me is where you have to embrace that part of it and know that the discomfort is going to be there. But when you're dealing with public policy, you have a responsibility to bring the people along only as much as they can digest it.

At their pace.

At their pace. Because you're affecting the entire community. So if that takes conversations and discomfort along the way and makes it more difficult by the time you get to the dais, which to me is the end point of public policy.

Yeah.

To me, standing at the dais when I'm asking my board board or my elected officials for something. That's step 99 out of 100, not step 1 of 2.

Right. Which is why it's so slow. Back to what I said earlier, I like fast, but it doesn't happen fast if it's going to happen in a sustainable way or in a way that's going to, like we talked about earlier, for the people that we are here to serve.

Right. And it's hard to do that now when you've got so many opinions. And now the next time we're going to have the exact same situation and it's going to happen even faster than I did this last time.

Because the, the relationship's degrading, right?

Exactly.

It's, it's every relationship is built on trust. And, and Rob, you're absolutely right. I mean, there's people when they look at their national politics, I talk about this all the time, it's like they're picking their sports team. Yeah, exactly. You I vote red or I vote blue. Then when I get down ticket, I vote what I think, but I'm voting for my sports team, right? And so you're right that that trust gets degraded. So the next time that something like this occurs, people are gonna be, to me, my concern as a transit director, as someone within this community, is that people are going to say, oh, here we go again. It's the Lakeland Electric sale conversation, right? All over again. Again, right? It's the Lakeland Community Theater all over again. And I felt like there's a different way. There's a different way that you can go about doing this. And it's uncomfortable.

And I think we also need to think about the fact that it's generating this very hard to discern— maybe it's there, maybe it's not—

conspiracy theory. It's—

the conspiracy theorists are now free to think that there is a conspiracy because there's no way disprove that there isn't a backroom deal going on. So the brains are going to go. So it started with the Lakeland First PAC discussion in Lakeland saying that this was going to be a supermajority on the dais because all of the commissioners, or 4 of the 7 commissioners, had been supported by this PAC. Why would we think that there would be any nefariousness going on just simply because we were supporting the community and getting these commissioners there? Until then, there there are these other things that start to take place that are also being brought to the commission. So when you, when you, when you let your brain go and your imagination go, conspiracy theory or not, it's going to become something people believe. Your perception is reality.

It's people like sports. Tom made a great example. It's a, it's a sports thing, right? I'm team red or I'm team blue, right? The fact is people enjoy it because it's become a weird It's one of my personal crusades to kind of unring that bell as best as we can because it's not a road that we want to go down as a country and it sure as heck isn't one we want to go down as a community.

Totally not.

And I'm watching this in real time where we're going down those same paths where we're taking the national politics because like what you said, Tom, was, "Okay, I'm team red or team blue at the very top and then I'll start to winnow things and be a little bit more nuanced on my way down." That process is eroding. Eroding, and it's going faster and faster to the point where now we're talking about these, our local municipal leaders who are effectively part-time employees. And we're looking at it like they're part of some evil cabal of people running on influence and peddled by people with money and power. And I'm not naive to think that money doesn't play a role in some decisions and can influence people. But it's gone so far. And now we're at a point where it's like the conversation doesn't even matter because people want to believe what they want to believe because it's fun. It's interesting. People get passionate about it.

I don't know if it's fun. It's not fun. It's just satisfying. It's some sort of like—

Well, they can't complain about their boss, right?

Okay.

They can't complain about their spouse.

Right.

But man, I can complain about my government. Yeah. It's an easy punching bag.

Right, right.

So it's an easy topic. I would have a tendency to agree with Rob. I mean, the Lakeland City Commissioners are excellent people. They are here doing a service. And we have had so many great community conversations where we've made big decisions and they haven't had to have been that controversial. Right, right, right. Whether it's the rollback of the 10th of a mil, right, that occurred last cycle, right? That was extremely controversial. But there was a community conversation that occurred about that. About that. The dog park. Do we need a dog park? Do we not need a dog park? Great conversation. We're getting a dog park. A community conversation. And I would even say, and I don't know your individual feelings about this, but I thought Lakeland handled the Confederate statue monument issue better than anywhere in the nation.

Yeah, I think the outcome—

I agree. Forget the outcome. I don't want to talk about that. Let's talk about the conversation that this community had. Right, right. No one was arrested. Nothing was being spray-painted in the middle of the night. Nothing was being boxed up. Nothing was being done, right? It was a real true community conversation, and it was a conversation among an incoming administration and an outgoing administration, right?

Right.

Incoming commissioners and outgoing commissioners. But there's a civility— yep, conversation. Massive emotional issue for people on on both sides.

But look what happened with the end result, right? Nobody was necessarily thrilled because on your polar ends, get rid of it, blow it up with dynamite, or leave it where it is and let's put lights on it. Those are the two extremes. And what our government did was they listened to all of the voices and they came up with a measured response that said, we're going to respect those of you who like this thing. And we're going to respect those of you who want it to be somewhere else. That's what government is about.

And now, because we've had that conversation, the hairs are standing up in the back of my head. Julie Townsend and the LDDA are leading a fantastic community conversation about what's going to go in Munn Park.

Right, right.

And we're all going to benefit from whatever goes there. Now, there's going to be impassioned pleas on both sides. Is there going to be a carousel? Is there going to be a bandshell? Is there going to be another monument? I don't know. But what I do know know is that because of the process that the community went through and the leadership and the openness of that dialogue, we're going to have something in that park that is going to benefit everyone. Maybe we don't do anything, right? But the community was not torn apart over it. And that to me is a prime example of a hugely emotional issue.

And it was a slow process.

It was slow. And, and who doesn't think think that it was painful, painfully slow. Let's just move the thing or box it up, or as Rob said, all the different options. But because they went through the process, right, we came up with a solution that nobody is happy with, but everybody is okay.

Okay, everyone had to compromise basically.

But they did. But people are willing to compromise when they believe that their interests or their opinions, their feelings things have been heard or taken into consideration. I think most people understand that they're not always going to get their way. They just want to know that they were considered. And I think that's what the city did right with the monument issue. As messy as it was, Tom's point is spot on. It was far less messy than anywhere else. We're capable of doing this. We really are. This is not something that is just, we have to fundamentally change. It's just something we have to be, in my opinion, union more conscious of. And we have to be willing to take those steps and to think about how the communications process has changed and evolved over the years.

Well, and one more point about that too is that when you take a polarizing issue like the monument or like the golf course or like the community theater, you find that the majority of people really don't have an opinion. And yet they're involved in the decision-making process just as much because they are watching this whole thing unfold and they're kind of in the middle of it. So what I— where we talked about before is I really was just more concerned about the way it was going to impact my community. I wasn't really concerned about the outcome. I was concerned about, is this going to create divisiveness that's going to never go away? Are we going to have enemies at the end of this experience? And we didn't because it worked its way. We worked it, we worked through it in a healthy way. But the reality is not everybody plays golf. Not everybody is involved in the theater. Not any, not everybody had an opinion about the monument. Those that didn't are also to be considered in all of these discussions because they are going to have to live here after the aftermath, if there is going to be aftermath.

Sure.

But like I said before, people having, for finding this to be fun fun in some ways. I was in a conversation online, if you can believe that.

You have fun. That's the thing. This is fun to you and it is, it's not fun to me.

I've had to scale back a lot because I used to think it was fun. And then I started to realize that, you know, I'm of the mindset I would have any conversation I'd have online, I'd have with you, you know, over a beer. And I don't, I don't take this stuff personally. And what I found out is that while I may not have taken it personally over the past 25 years that I've been having political passionate political debates with people, other people have changed and they take it real personally. So I'm having a conversation, just responding to, asking for evidence that there is this sweeping corruption and paid-off commissioners, if there is any evidence of this, because I haven't seen any yet and I'd love to if there was any. And I began to get threats from people of violence. And one person was entering the conversation, not because I think she had an opinion, opinion, but simply because she was sticking up for her friend who was saying this stuff to me. So my point is, is that the team sport approach to all of this, it attracts people who don't even have an opinion, like you, like you pointed out. But I do like that guy, so I'm going to go with whatever his opinion— because we've mentioned it before and I'll say it again, the dichotomous thinking— we feel like we have to choose between the Hatfields and the McCoys. It's not a winnable battle. This is all a distractionary thing.

We can go down a path. No, and it slows the process down for the next time.

Right, exactly.

The next time that there's the BHAG idea, right? People are going to be cautious about it. They're going to think that something's happening and it doesn't have to be that way.

Yeah.

And it becomes reflexive in the speed in which that outrage comes up.

Well, and over time the bias is un— you can't undo the bias. Like there is now becoming an attitude or an opinion that is, prevalent among many people that there is no trust there. Don't trust this organization, don't trust that person, don't trust whatever, any of that, whatever that is. And that's unhealthy. I mean, we all have the same goals in mind. We all want a thriving, growing, healthy community. And yet we all aren't going to agree every single time about every single thing. But that doesn't mean we need to stop trusting each other. We need to build that trust and the degrading, as you use the word, degrading of trust, that's got to be the focus, I think, think for a while.

So, Tom, summarize this for us, because I think you started all of this with a much more concise explanation than I ever could make.

But from a communications perspective, to try and to get to do better as a community, in my one experience with a community conversation, it is that you have to put the time into having conversations with the community in the places and the spaces that they operate so that you can have that authenticity when you want to move your position forward.

Right.

It's the standard. We'll meet in the library and we'll have the boards up. And Rob, I think you talked about it once, you know, you got the Quarter Pounder, right? And it's this is what this project is going to look like. And it's this big, juicy hamburger and everything looks great. Then you open it up and it's a piece of crap. You have to have those authentic conversations and to me, be ready for the blowback. And I think the point that you all are making is within social media, it's going to be quick. It's going to be immediate. It's got to be expected. And you have to kind of ride that wave of criticism and disappointment and discussion so that by the time you get to the actual decision point, There's an authenticity that's there that a community conversation has occurred. I, I feel the same thing about the road diet, right? The Citrus Connection is directly impacted by the road diet. We're losing 14 stops, some of our most popular stops, but we're running a Dixieland community shuttle around the area. There are many people who feel that Florida Avenue is going to be unusable. There are many people who are excited that it's going to turn into a cafe urban type environment. It's been a very controversial issue, and I know a lot of people are exhausted about talking about it already.

Already.

And it hasn't even started. And I look at it from a public policy perspective and I say, this is exactly what we should be doing. People should be getting ready for it. They should know what's coming because at the end of the day, they are going to determine for themselves whether it's a good or bad idea. but the process makes sure that the organization, whether it be government or not, their trust is still there. Their brand, their reputation has not been affected.

Right.

Because as you said, Rob, My Ride My Roads was a great idea. People didn't want to pay for it. I don't think the Citrus Connection brand was damaged at all.

I don't think so.

But people still made a decision. Right. And I think that's where it's different in public policy than it is in the private sector. Right. Yeah. We win or we lose. If we don't get Mission Foods in Polk County, we get the jobs or the jobs go somewhere else. Right. That's a W and an L. The road diet is public policy. It has to be fixed.

Right.

We have to do something about it. The only, to me, win-loss of the road diet is did people know it was coming? Did we engage them? And would we let them know what the reasonable expectations are? And if the answer is yes, then to me, we've done a great job.

And since that's an upcoming issue that we're going to be needing to address, I want to have you back on the show specifically to talk about that as we get there, because there are a lot of things to talk about there with the shuttle and things like that. This was great. I hope you guys enjoyed this episode as much as I did. And I just appreciate Tom, thank you for coming on the show.

We'll have you back again soon.

Thank you for having me. Having me.

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thanks, Marcy.

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