The CRA Is Paying It Forward

The CRA is paying it forward. This is the Elevate Polk Podcast, and I'm your host, Chrissanne Long. And with me, as always, is Rob Arturi.

Hello.

Howdy. And we have a guest today I'm excited to introduce. I am going to say hello to Elise. Elise Drumgoe is our CRA manager in the city of Lakeland.

Hey, good afternoon.

How are you?

I'm doing well today. Thank you for having me.

I'm excited to bring you in and be your first podcast experience.

Yeah, it is. It's going to be interesting for me, never having been behind the microphone, but it feels good to be in the box with y'all.

Yeah, well, we're happy to have you.

Yeah.

So we're going to start with a softball. We're just going to talk about you. Well, you're going to talk about you. I want you to just give us the background. I know things, but I want you to just talk about all the important pieces of your journey to Lakeland, how you got here. Starting with where you started from and all of the things in between. But you only have like 1 minute. No, I'm kidding. Take as much time as you want.

No, I'll start out with, you know, for me, I think it's being from Houston, being a Texas guy and then going off and joining the military. So I was in the Air Force for 4 years, a security forces member, multi-tours overseas serving my country. So after that, I went off to college in New Jersey, graduated with my master's degree from Rutgers and worked for Downtown Newark Redevelopment Authority for some time under then-Mayor Cory Booker and moved along from Newark and got into the education sector for a few years. Was a Teach for— I'm a Teach for America alumni, so just a real education advocate as well with it's interwoven into everything that I do to be a public servant and work for the furtherance of others' conditions. And after leaving the classroom, I ended up here in Florida. I worked in the city of Tampa for a couple of years and saw this beacon of light in the, in the middle of Florida and ended up coming over to Lakeland to work for its redevelopment agency.

And I am just glad that you found us because I think that you are an amazing asset to the community. Everyone I know that talks about Alisa or has had an experience dealing with, with a project with Alisa or anything, they, they want to express it in ways that I also want to express it. So I want you to know how much the community I know, and I don't know everybody in the community, and I'm sure you've made somebody mad along the way, or you weren't able to, to make everything perfect. But everyone that I've come across that has had even an experience that we'll talk about on the show has really great things to say about you. So we're very lucky to have you in Lakeland. And like I said, happy to have you on the show.

Yeah, I appreciate that. You know, part of it is I'm always asking myself, I think even in experiences where I can't say yes all the time is how might we and why potentially we might be saying no. So, you know, just always willing to lend a hand.

Well, is that a shift that you've seen? I feel like that's something new to the city of Lakeland in general. I also feel like there's probably a cultural shift countywide as well, but have you been a part of that shift I know that that's probably the mindset you walked in the door with, but I don't know that leadership was always in the same mindset that you are. So have you felt that things are a little bit more going in that how might we versus, you know, no, next?

Oh yeah, absolutely. And I think that's been a lot of Nicole Travis's charge, you know, since she's taken over our department and she's certainly trying to make sure that we're in the community meeting the needs of those who are, coming through the doors because even if I'm not the person or you're not the person that comes through the door, when someone comes through the door that can assist, it's guiding them into the right place and the right resources. And so, it's been good for me to have someone like that as a boss or manager who understands that extending the hand and the work that you put in potentially can lead to something of fruition. So, yeah.

I've sensed that and I'm just glad that you brought up Nicole. She's a great leader. She's a good mentor, I think, for a lot of the people that she leads. And she's a hard worker. She's out there not just pointing fingers and say, "Go do," but she's out there in the trenches with everybody. So hats off to Nicole today.

So how did you like Newark?

Oh man, Newark was a— it was a lot of good food, actually. I actually loved Newark. Wow. Yeah. I spent a lot of time in the Ironbound section of Newark, which is where they've got a lot of good Portuguese food and any direction you walk in, whether you want Italian or Jamaican. I mean, it's just—

Good Chinese food up there.

Yeah.

It's authentic too. It's really authentic. It's great food. So I got nothing bad to say about the Brick City. The people up there are passionate about their city and what they want to accomplish. And I think that they hold their leaders and their city employees to a high standard too.

I wanna know a little deeper into, Elyse, when you decided community development was gonna be your thing. From an education standpoint, you go to college, you pick a track, and then you go get a job. So when you picked the track, did you know what the outcome was that you wanted or were you kind of like me just going through and saying, maybe I'll get a job when I get a degree, you know, kind of thing?

Yeah. Well, I think it's, for me it's always been, I have been a public servant, so it hasn't been so much specifically just carving out a position and saying, I want to do X in community development. It's like, what position do I need to be in to move communities along? Oh, I love that. And so, you know, in my first position when I was in the military, I mean, I was a member of security forces and we get, I think, chided for being the first level of defense when you go onto a military base. But also in my downtime, you know, I spent time coaching, across the base and spending time with mentoring and reading the kids and things like that. And so it really exposed me to the various opportunities in which I could serve. And then also in my time too, I trained a lot with LAPD and LA County Sheriffs. And so I served on a SWAT team for my base. Nice. And yeah, so, you know, a lot of folks don't realize that I have this duality of, you know, I can help you and do these things, but also wanting to— I think I have a passion for police service as well in that way that I understand what they go through on a daily, which makes it easy for me to collaborate with my counterparts here in the city to talk about what's impacting our communities and also to hold them accountable relative to solutions. So, right.

And you're not somebody that hasn't— doesn't have experience that is saying it shouldn't be this way. Right. You have some experience to walk in the door with. So that's, that's pretty cool.

That's especially important for relationships between law enforcement and community. There's lots of places around the country where that is—

it's tested a lot.

And even though Lakeland Police Department has had some challenges in the past, it really wasn't in that arena. And I think the community relations is certainly a lot better here than a lot of other places, but it is always helpful to have people in different places, different levels within government that have those appreciations because a lot of— that's not necessarily common. That's not something that you'd find in somebody like on your track that you would have had that type of involvement. So I think it is in terms of diversity of—

Diversity of experience, diversity of background.

Yeah, I like that.

Diversity of experience.

Yeah. And it's definitely helped me, you know, coming to Lakeland, I feel like every professional experience I've had to date has really just helped me to hone me to help, you know, when I get I've been implanted here in the community. So those various experiences have helped me be in this position today to really support and to look at it from various lenses because it's not just about throwing dollars at problems. It's, you know, you gotta really get out and do work. And then when I was in Newark, you know, I used to manage a downtown entity. And so part of that was getting folks to take ownership of the public space. I mean, you know, folks would see me walking down downtown Broad Street in a suit, picking up trash, right? Like that's, right. Those are some of the things that you have to do to make sure that folks real, you know, understand that if he'll do it, then I should do it too. And then also, sure. You know, if, if I litter in this downtown, there, there are people like him who take pride in this and, you know, we have that relationship with each other.

So I think it's more than that. I think it's more than the, if you were to litter, you're sending one message, not littering. That's nice. But picking up somebody else's trash, I think, sends a message that you see something more in this city than just a place that's— it's acceptable for there to be trash on the floor.

Mm-hmm.

That's a, that's a powerful point because I think that's a— that lends itself to doing what you're doing right now where you are using taxpayer dollars to invest in the city because you see things in blighted areas that can be more. For sure, that are much, you know, worth much more. So it's a funny example that you made. It's, you know, it's seemingly a small example, but when you say it, I think of it as it makes perfect sense. It's, it's the same premise, just on a, on a bigger scale.

Well, and it goes back to the, I would say, the core of what you said earlier, who you are is, you know, moving communities forward. And you can't move communities forward by looking away when there's something to be addressed. You've gotta kind of get down in it and, and get to the core of what might be the problem. So let's talk a little bit now about the CRA. Um, let's— so I just want to give the audience a little bit of a background on context. I had asked Elise to be on the show weeks and weeks and weeks ago, and, um, you know, I think it stalled. I mean, we have a lot of conversations about a lot of different things, and so, you know, he's like, sure, yeah, I'll be on the show. And then, um, Andrew Bashia and Bob Miller and Moselle Axton had a conversation on Facebook Live feed that I happened to find, and It made a very clear point to me, and I said this to Bob and to Andrew. I haven't— I think I actually said it to Moselle as well, that there's a lot of unknowns about the CRA, that there were a lot of questions that they brought up on the show that they had that they didn't have answers to. And so I thought, well, let's, let's take that information. And Elise, you've listened to the show. And if anyone wants to go, we could put the link in the show notes.

Sure.

You know, it's an hour-long, you know, hour-long discussion about some projects and things. We're not really going to get We're not going to get into the weeds on this show, but we really wanted to educate the community about what the CRA is and what it is not and really what it is designed to do. So let's start with what is the CRA?

Yeah, so the CRA, the Community Redevelopment Agency, is— and there are 3 CRAs in Lakeland, just so you all know, and I get the pleasure of managing all 3 of them. But it's a redevelopment area that is designated for improvements. And that's a short way of putting it. You know, if you've got a blighted area or an area where and depending on the findings of the initial report, which govern how you have to establish a CRA. So just overall, you know, you are the CRA. I want to say that to all City of Lakeland citizens and then kind of drill down to the folks who live in the CRA because, you know, the— of course, the taxpayer dollars do go towards the CRA, and it's specific to the people who live in the redevelopment districts. So everyone is not taxed for the CRA. It's only those folks who live in that area. And those tax dollars that they do, that are collected, get funneled specifically into the community for specific projects. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. So, you know, for someone who lives in South Lakeland, they're not paying for the Midtown CRA, right? That TIF is based on property values that are established at a point in time. And I'll use Midtown for an example because, you know, Midtown is the largest of the CRAs, which spans from approximately the bypass all the way up to I-4 and with some varying east-west boundaries. But those property values were frozen in time some 20 years ago, and the increases on those property values get essentially set aside for those monies to specifically be spent on projects within those redevelopment areas. And so that helps us to further along areas where you potentially would have those monies being spent elsewhere. And so—

Well, let me stop you for one second.

Sure.

Just clarify this because I'm genuinely, I'm ignorant about how this stuff works.

Sure.

And I think it's worth, we're not trying to make a bunch of CRA experts out there, but I think there's a lot of misconceptions. Anytime you talk about tax money, people always have opinions.

Yeah.

When you say that the tax values are frozen, basically are the people living in those districts, are they paying a higher tax rate than they would be, or is the city essentially only using a portion of the value based upon years ago? And as the tax value increases, the taxes will go up, but they take all of the increased taxes that everybody pays and put that into a fund. Is that— do I understand it right?

Yeah, you're close. You take a portion of that. So, and I'll give you an example. If you've got $1, say if I own a building in Dixieland, that's worth $1. And then today, 20 years later, that building is worth $2. The difference between the cost from then to now, which is $1, gets put specifically in a fund. And those funds must be spent specifically in Dixieland, in that area for projects that move that area forward. Okay. So, you know, it, it is, it's, it's again, a point in time value and it's a portion of that that gets funneled back to the CRA. So, The city, the county, and Lampted, they all pay into the CRA fund every year. And right now, depending on the district, right, we've got 3 CRA districts. So for Dixieland, our annual operating budget is about $300,000. For Downtown, it's about $1.5 million. And then for Midtown, it's about $3.3 million. So overall, where the city has, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars, the CRA is only $6 million. And so what we do is we take our monies and we Specifically spend them on projects and programs to move those redevelopment areas along. And each redevelopment area has its own plan because it's based on the initial findings of that district. And so it's solely within those boundaries that monies are collected, that monies are spent specifically in those areas, and it has to be specific to the goals that are in the redevelopment plan. So And Dixieland's a prime example. Dixieland is a commercial corridor fronting Florida Avenue, both sides of the block from Ariana up to Lime Street, right? We can't take CRA money and go spend it outside the district, right? We can't take that money and spend it on residential programs in the Dixieland neighborhoods. We have to design programs that are geared towards those specific properties along the, the Dixieland corridor there, South Florida Avenue. So, you know, it's, it's very particular and, and everybody wants access to that money, right? Because they feel like it's tax dollars and I want those I want those tax dollars. Well, we understand you want those tax dollars, but does your project meet a goal of the redevelopment plan? And is it something that we should be focused on? And is your ask within reason? So I think that, you know, if everyone had copies of the redevelopment plans, which are on our website, I was going to ask.

So go ahead. Yep. Okay.

You know, our annual reports, all those documents are available. It's all public record. And we get, you know, we get requests all the time for these things. But yeah, you know, the CRA, 3 areas, 3 various districts, and then we have an advisory board, and the advisory board consists of property owners and business owners. So you have to live, work in the district, one or the other. We have a consolidated board, meaning that we have board meeting members from each area. So we have a total of 11 advisory board members. Ultimately, they are advisory in nature, meaning that we meet We discuss items, we offer opinions. I mean, they offer opinions based on what staff is bringing forward. And then, you know, if it's something that's complex or it needs to be moved to a higher level, well, the CRA is actually the commission, right? So if you've ever been at a meeting, you hear them convene as commission and reconvene as a CRA. Well, that's because ultimately they make all the decisions relative to CRA.

But the advisory board is making the recommendations based on the conversations that they're having.

That's right.

And then they're delivering that, you know, suggestion to the commission for them to make the vote.

That's correct.

So the advisory board doesn't make the decision. The commission makes a decision when they switch hats and then they take into account what the advisory board says.

That's right.

Because they're a voice, obviously intended to be a voice local in that, in that environment. There's a lot of thought put into that. You know, I've heard You know, leading up to this episode, I wanted to do a little bit of research and look at what people are talking about and the conversations that are being had. And it's everything from just, you know, government money picking winners and losers. And I don't know how much money they think is in there, but it's a finite amount.

And it is.

And it's not a lot.

And it's specific to exactly what it's designed to be. And I think— I think I would recommend if anyone is intrigued enough to go and do their research, I would love for people to better understand what the redevelopment plan is for each of the areas.

Yes.

Because then you can find out, all right, and hold the CRA accountable. If you think they're out of bounds, well, your redevelopment plan says this, but how does that apply? Because that's really what the checks and balances are supposed to be there for. It's written and it's public and it's available so that we can be aware of the fact that these are folks doing the best by the people in the communities that they serve.

We talk a lot about getting people involved and people being heard, but If you haven't taken that step that Chrissanne Long just mentioned and done your homework and looked at what the plan is, what is the goal and how these things work, and you just want to shout your opinion, don't expect to be taken seriously. You know, look, we want people to be involved, engaged, and be heard, but you have to be willing to put in some of the work. You have to be willing to look at, well, what is the main plan? If you have a problem with the plan, I think, at least I've known him for 5 minutes, but I'll speak for him. I think that he would listen and I think You think that the board would listen and the commissioner would listen. But when you walk in there with nothing but an opinion, you really shouldn't expect people to stop and take an interest in what you have to say.

Right. And I think I also want to add to that that Elise, his team, commissioners, most city staff that I've met— I mean, all city staff that I've met, they're here to serve. They want you to ask the questions. And if you feel like you're challenging something, well, just ask the question and let them prove to you that they're they're there to answer.

Yeah, well, listen, discourse is important for us because that's how we vet out the decisions that we ultimately end up making. And I think that, you know, we always— all of our meetings are public record and we keep meeting minutes and all that's posted on our website going back several years. We also have our annual reports posted on our website going back several years. So, you know, you get an indication of what we've spent money on historically and you can cross-check that with our redevelopment plan. We also, we publish our budget at the same time the city publishes, overall publishes its budget because we are, we are still an arm of the city, right? As much as folks perhaps don't really understand that. But yeah, we do. We like to talk about whether or not we're meeting the needs of the community. And I think that if we have programs that are defunct, we do it all the time. We sunset programs and we talk openly amongst ourselves about whether or not the programs are meeting the needs of the homeowners or property owners, the business owners, entrepreneurs in the area. And so we're constantly reexamining whether or not there are gaps. And I think that the presumption is that we just kind of keep rubber stamping everything. And really we look at the one, I think the one great thing about us is that one, we are totally innovative. I want to say in the few years that I've been here, we've dumped several things that weren't working or we've moved it to the office of someone who could execute it better and streamlined for the customers that are coming in. So we're just always looking at how we can do better relative to customer service and delivery, but in particular to programs, you know, we certainly want to put the money in the right hands where we'll have the most impact.

And I think— So let's talk a little bit about programs.

Yeah.

Give us some examples, some tangible things that people can wrap their head around that a pro— you call about, you call programs out.

Sure.

What is a program? What does it look like? How does it get applied into the community? And then you said sunsetting. So at some point in time, if it's not working, you know, what, what decision-making goes through? What process do you go through to just to sunset something?

Yeah. Prime example, CRA historically had some residential grant programs where we provided down payment assistance to homebuyers in the community. And so we had some level of overlap there with our housing partners, housing division that operates out of Coleman Bush Building. Typically they focus on affordable housing and CDBG, CHIP, and Home Administration. Those are some acronyms for— government loves acronyms. Yeah, it's for federal government programs that provide funding for housing. So they administer those funds as they are divvied up and provided to the city of Lakeland. And locally, those are the folks who are out there repairing homes for the elderly and you know, and providing down payment assistance for folks who are with income restrictions and going to bat for the folks who are within those up to 120% area median income. And so the CRA was not administering its housing grant funds in that manner, and we would just give money to anyone who came in. And it was brought to our attention that, you know, one, we had a service gap. And so it's great for us to recruit new folks to come into Lakeland and provide those funds. But at the same time, you know, do you want to give a down payment assistance to a doctor who makes $200,000 a year at the hospital? Right, right. And then they go and buy a home in an underserved community. I think that everyone would say, yeah, that at least that'll lead to gentrification over time. So, you know, we kind of reexamined that and we started to partner with our housing colleagues to figure out how we might be able to do it differently. And ultimately we ended up eliminating some of our programs and then transitioning some of those over to Housing Division. On the other side of that, on the commercial side, there are grant funds available for property owners or folks who are coming in who would like to purchase property and you want to renovate your building. The CRA will provide matching grants or 50% match for approved renovations. And so, you know, we have those grants available in both Dixieland and in Midtown, and that's because those are goals of the redevelopment plan within those two areas.

Okay.

So just looking at our grant programs and what we offer, those are like our bread and butter where, you know, you got a minor renovation of something you like to do, you want to put a restaurant in, you need a grease trap or something like that, we can certainly support that.

Okay.

So this is basically what I'm hearing too, is that the intention is to be basically a supplemental assistance.

Yes.

Yes.

That there has to be an investment often, I would imagine a much larger investment from the business owner or the homeowner or somebody else who's investing in the community. You're merely providing kind of a catalyst for that.

That's right. And that's what we like to call ourselves, right? We're just that little nudge to get you to do it. And really we're at a point, I think, where folks will tell you every day construction costs are at an all-time high. It's hard as heck to get a contractor to take on a project, if it's hard to do, they'll likely tell you, no, we won't, we don't want to do it, which can drive up costs even further. And so, you know, not being able to secure those trades, it makes it difficult and those funding gaps need to be filled somehow. And so that's where the CRA comes in where we say, yeah, we want you to move that business to this area of town that isn't performing so well. So we'll provide you with these grant funds since you want to invest in this area. And, you know, we do have times where the CRA will embark, we call 'em signature projects now, where, you know, we will go in and we'll kind of procure property in an area at a ridiculous price because no one else will touch it.

Right.

And so, you know, we'll buy it and we'll either renovate or we'll demo and try to bring in other partners. And, and again, it's so that we can provide a catalyst for that specific area.

I think my favorite example, the, the Yard on Mass, I know we talked a lot about the, the CRA's involvement with that.

Yeah.

And I'm certainly happy with it.

Yeah.

That, I mean, that whole campus, you know, from Yardarmass, House 820, yeah. The Collective, uh, Artifact Studios, you know, even the apartments that, uh, kind of run parallel to the tax collector's office. Even the tax collector's office.

Yeah.

I mean, we, we have a hand in everything center block there where folks didn't want to be in that area, you know, 10 years ago. And the buildings were falling apart. We had a lot of services in that area and slowly but surely we just started to kind of plug away at it and folks see value in it now. And I think that it went from where the CRA had to make massive investment when you look at Mass Market. I mean, we spent over $3 million to acquire, renovate that property. And then now where you've got Yard on Mass, where the CRA is really a 20% investor, right? Where, and we hold the property after someone else has paid for the building, you know? And that's something that we keep saying internally is we want to get better with every deal as we go on. So please don't come through the door and expect to get the deal where we buy you a building and we renovate it for you, right? Like we, we want to, that's not how it works. Yeah. We want to do a little bit better with every deal and, and, over time so that, you know, we can make sure that we reinvest those funds wisely.

So let's talk about over time. So let's, it's, you just kind of walked us down or up Massachusetts.

Mm-hmm.

And, and the process by which what was once blighted and rundown and, and vacant and just not a place that people wanted to go is now becoming a center for, you know, creativity and opportunity and things are growing. So if you had started if you were— if you're a skeptic and if you're a cynic, which, you know, we talk about sometimes a lot on the show, um, you might have seen the tax collector's office get renovated and put that, that really nice building there and go, what?

Why?

Why here? And then, you know, the next thing happens— House 820 and Mass Market and Yard on Mass. And, you know, I, I think what I tend to do, which can receive a lot of criticism if you, if you want it to, is I tend to trust the institutional knowledge of the experts doing their jobs. And I do believe that they know what they're doing enough that they have all of our best interests at heart. Now, that doesn't mean that there aren't questions that we should ask and get clarification and just let them go do whatever they want to do, because I don't think that that's part of their job. And that's kind of the hard part for me, as I am a naturally trusting person, to try to argue with a cynic who thinks that there's corruption and that— now, I don't think every deal goes the way that I would want it to go or that the right decision was made for every single thing. But I think we're looking at it from a, let's say, a 20 or 50-year plan. What are we going to look like in 20 or 50 years? And that, I think, is what the CRA's intentional focus is on. We want to make Midtown something people will invest in and want to be in so that we don't need a CRA fund to make those things grow in 10 or 20 or 50 years.

Yeah, I mean, listen, you just said it. So I'm going to steal one from Nicole where I hate to steal quotes, right? But she used to always say, you know, private investment follows public dollars. And it's an understanding that, you know, we have to make the investment so that we can sort of kick these communities off. You don't get to have a CRA in perpetuity. And I think that's the other thing that folks have a misconception about. We don't get to just say, you know what, we're going to take this money and we will continue to do this for the rest of time. Our Midtown and Dixieland CRAs have just over a decade on them. And so the folks who preceded me and preceded Nicole, they spent a lot of time planning. They spent a lot of time planning and now we're doing. And that's the kicker for us where we really want to make sure that we're spending the money in the right place and that we're not just sitting on dollars. So when we look at the amount of time that we have to make an impact, we're running out of time. And if we don't do something now, then there's a chance that these areas will not, will not take off the way that they need to. And for every person who understands public service and public administration, you know that vacant property is a, it's a crime hazard, right? Yeah, sure. Dilapidated properties breed other issues. And on top of that, it's a hazard to the people who live in the immediate vicinity. And we are carrying that. There's a maintenance expense on an annual basis for vacant properties, rundown properties, the amount of code enforcement resources that go into them. I still don't to this day understand how Jim Dainey and his team keeps up with all the code challenges around the city. So It just overall, when we look at this, you know, if you've got a CRA that can recruit or establish a partnership to build on X vacant property instead of carrying it with no tax, no taxables, right? No taxable values. You've got this mechanism. Like, I'm going to rely, I'm going to lean on that mechanism 9 times out of 10 to help me generate business, generate revenues for that area, because if not, You don't know how long it's gonna sit, right? We can keep waiting around for the next deal. We can keep waiting around for the next thing that we say will come along. But the, the truth is that we don't know, you know, we don't know. And this stuff is cyclical. So we've gotta, we've gotta hit hard now while we have the opportunity.

Right.

And so when you look at the decade of the Midtown and Dixieland CREs that we have left, downtown is about 15 years. If we hit a cycle, a down cycle, there may be nothing during those down cycles or nothing will happen. No projects get approved. So they take years to come to the table just for approval a lot of times, right? With big projects. So I think that if you, you know, it takes 2 years to bring the right people to the table on average. And, you know, 2 years from now, could we guarantee ourselves that we'll be in a market where folks want to invest their private dollars?

I hope we are, but I think you're right. It's important that people realize that, that there is a cost to not doing this. You may still have investment, but it's not gonna be in that same area.

That's right.

And I think I've heard, and I, I was not around Lakeland in the '80s, but there was a very, there is a very vast difference between downtown Lakeland in the '80s and downtown Lakeland now. And even in the last 10 years, there's a huge difference.

Sure.

And so it's intentional. Like it didn't happen on accident. The community leaders looked at downtown and said, we need a better front porch. We need a better, that's right. We need people to come, want to come downtown. And so how does that happen? It doesn't happen overnight. It doesn't happen in 10 years. It happens in 20, 30, 40, 50 years.

Yeah. So you know what they did? They said, well, we think we need a CRA. That's what they did. They like 30 years ago, they said, you know, I think that we have an issue with our downtown. And, you know, 40 years ago they said, we got, we got issues here. How do we bring it back? How do we help? How do we set aside the right funding to plan projects to be able to put in this lovely streetscape that folks enjoy so much? It requires that level of skill to recruit development because folks have to understand the level of infrastructure that it takes to put a development in your downtown core. And that all gets put on a developer and the developer will say, well, you know what, if I can charge more for it in Tampa or Orlando, why not go there? I can, it's gonna cost me the same to build it whether I build it in Lakeland or not. So we have to make ourselves attractive. And right now the historic character of our downtown is such that folks say, hey, I do, I want to come to Lakeland. But, right?

But, you know, unpack that. But what are the, what are the reasons that they, that they give because this isn't the perfect place for them?

Well, diversity in workforce, right? Like the level of skillset for workforce. Also the income of the, of the workforce as well. You know, we lag behind dollars-wise. And then without a doubt, it's the fact that we've got these two booming cities on our periphery that, you know, you can, you can charge higher rent, you can, you get more return on that investment upfront a lot sooner. So, So it's easier to go to those other cities and recoup the money for your investment. So it comes down to whether or not we provide a positive environment when they come through the door. All right.

Right.

So that relationship upfront and the mindset that we have about attracting that development, and then also what incentives can we give 'em to, to come to Lakeland and buy in for the long term? Because once they're here, they're here and they're not likely to leave.

Right.

And, and then that other thing is, like we truly do need more infill. I know that folks think that there's a parking problem now, but there are so many, there's so many gaps in the downtown framework relative to what it means to have a true downtown, right?

So for a non-community development person, can you define what infill means?

Where you've got vacant parcels. So meaning that if I, and I'll give you a prime example, if I'm walking around the north portion of downtown, you know, I've got, I can go to Mitchell's, right? I can go grab got some coffee down there and there's a parking lot right next door. And then you look to the north of that and there's just nothing, right? You look to your south, you've got great— Mon Park is there, great park space. But then you also see a lack of activity above the first floor. And those are areas where we can do better, where we can recruit infill to occupy those spaces so you can max out and you max out your tax dollar as well. You know, folks wonder how Tony Delgado is able to keep the taxes where they are every year. And we don't have increases where other folks are raising their taxes to be able to execute projects and recruit development. You know, we're not doing that. And that's because we have Lakeland Electric, because we manage fiscally properly, but then also because we've got a mechanism to be able to set aside funding for projects, and that's a CRA.

Right. So let's talk about kind of what— where, um, Andrew's point was when he had the conversation with Bob Miller and Axel on the show, um, on the smaller contractors and their ability to have successful projects within CRA areas.

Sure.

And how— what does a smaller developer need to have when they walk in the door to work well with the CRA so that it's a win for all. Because I think that the attitude is, and I mean, I can almost see it, but I'm not in the trenches, so I don't know it to be true, but I can see where it would seem skewed that the larger developers kind of get all of the handholding and the friendly environment. And maybe there's a chance that that's not exactly applied across the board. So are they walking in with a different awareness of the CRA, an expectation, or is it maybe that they're just not walking in with the full story of what they need to walk in with?

Yeah, I mean, I think that we should do a better job of educating folks, you know, and I want to take some of the onus for that because at the end of the day, we are public servants and we are trying to recruit people to come through the door to engage in business with us. And so if folks don't necessarily understand the overview of the programs or how they work or could leverage those, it's on us to do better at it. And I think that we've been talking about the education aspect of what we do a whole lot more of late to make sure that we, and not just Andrew, just generally for our community and the people that we serve in those CRA districts.

So, well, I think the education needed is probably some workshops.

Yeah. It's ongoing. Mm-hmm. That's exactly what you're saying.

Things that's an ongoing conversation. So somebody new comes in, hey, I have an idea. Hey, I wanna invest. What do I do? What are the steps? Because I think there's a, there's a document out there for, you know, starting a business downtown. Yeah. You know, just a generic piece of, you know, educational information that I don't know exists, but I know that you have the resources and the interest and the desire to, to create that. And I think what I love about what's happening with, with Andrew bringing that up and being heard and being acknowledged, not being shut down, you know, not saying, you know, get out of here, you don't know what you're talking about. We're, we're now understanding how government can work. Somebody brings up a question. Now we're seeing, okay, well, what could we do better is the response. It's not, you know, we've got this all figured out and, you know, you just don't know anything. I like to see how we're responding and how we're working to find solutions so that we can solve the educational gaps. Because honestly, these big corporate, you know, investors, big, big developers are coming in with a person who's experienced in that. They know community development. They have a guy on staff that knows all of the things. So that's their expertise. They don't need to have someone answer those questions when they walk in the door.

Yes, it is the education. And Andrew had a valid point. You know, I want to say that where he was challenging us relative to the expenses on a project called Lincoln Square, it's a 21 single-family homes in the neighborhood where Webster Park South and Paul A. Diggs come together. We built 21 houses there, and beforehand it was 100-some-odd apartments there. They were run down. They had asbestos. The school is— the apartments were next door to Lincoln Avenue Academy on a multi-acre track there. Just a full block of crime and drug activity. And what folks will say is that, we would've done the same thing you done but for cheaper or more. And I have to disagree is who is going to spend the money to buy those apartments knowing that your return on investment immediately, you're done, right? Right. If you're not gonna build that back, You'll never make the same money off that site. And you gotta abate it. And by the way, if you intend to turn this into a subdivision, which is what we did, you gotta put in a new road. And by the way, the stormwater runoff in this neighborhood is horrid. So you need to run a stormwater pipe underneath it while you're at it.

Right.

Oh, and by the way, right? And that's what it kept becoming. Oh, and by the way, you know, we're gonna underground all these utilities.

So you start this endeavor.

Yeah.

And then you, then you start pulling the sweater, you know, the string on the sweater, and everything starts to unravel, and you start realizing that the project that you thought it was isn't everything that you thought it was, or is it exactly as you thought it was at the beginning?

It was exactly what we knew it was. We, and that's the point of the CRA, we knew going into it that it was going to be cost prohibitive for someone else to do it because again, a private investor would not make the same move and then put in the houses and then sell them to folks in the community below market value, right? And I think that that's where the gap is at in education. I mean, listen, the reason why you've got a CRA is because this particular part of town was neglected for X amount of years. And it's an admission, right? It's a complete admission that that's what's occurred and not enough resources went into it. And so for us to, then check ourselves and say, you know what, is this investment really too good for this community? I think that, you know, that in and of itself, it creates another layer of issues, right? Where we would even say something like that. So for us, we knew what we were getting into and it was a matter of how long we would wait for someone else to be interested in doing it, or how much would we have to incentivize someone else to do it and then not get exactly what we knew the community wanted. Because when, when we put Lincoln Square back, that's after several community meetings, community meetings, visioning sessions, talking to folks about what they wanted. You know, it was a community center at one point, and then ultimately it settled on, we need quality affordable housing. We need to fix the queuing issues between the school and our community, and We want to make sure that we add some character because our community is just as old as other communities in Lakeland, but we don't have any historic designations.

Mm-hmm.

So what we did was we built properties that have historic character and they look like something you'd see in, in a historic district.

Right.

And we did that below market value. And when we realized that the value on the homes that we were building was above the break-even point for us, we didn't raise the prices. A classic investor move is to go back and say, well, you know what, I'm gonna take the money out of that, right? I'm upcharging you now because I know that this is worth more than I built it for. So, and more than I'm selling it to you for. Well, now we've got 21 families who received a down payment assistance. So we removed the barrier to lending that really exists. For most people. We made sure they got fixed-rate mortgages. We made sure they intended to homestead, which prevents us from having folks who will rent and then in turn we just have a revolving door. Sure. But we also, we sold predominantly to people who used to live either in those apartments or live in the community in the vicinity and go to church there. And instead they drive somewhere else at the end of the day on Sunday. And so now they're, they're invested in the community.

So what it sounds like you say, you're saying to me as I'm hearing this, as you tell the story, you're piecing it together in a way that has, has never been pieced together for me. So I'm, I'm grateful for that. But what you're saying to me is you're investing in people.

Without a doubt.

That is, and that's a priceless investment. Like when you, when you invest in a person, like you can talk about Mr. Brooks if you want and, and, the story that goes there, that is priceless. There is no, there's no cap on the amount of money we should put into the opportunity for a person to live in a place where he knows he's comfortable and being blind, I think he's completely blind.

Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately.

And now he has a home and it's something that we've invested in him.

That's right.

I don't know. I don't know if, I mean, shoot, I would love for somebody to invest in me in that way. But at the same time, it's realizing that the community cares about people in a way that is more important than the ROI on a project.

Yep.

That's what most people want. I don't know, even those of us who are— I wouldn't say I'm one of the skeptics. Most people do believe there's a role for government, but I think what frustrates people is that they don't believe that the outcomes are essentially following what they want.

Yeah.

So it's good to hear when you're talking about these things, about the effects on real people, and that there is a difference for some people. It's not— you're not changing everything about everywhere. You can't do that, but you start with one. And in this case, there's a lot more than one, but you're changing individual lives and you're increasing stake in the community. And there's an investment by the CRA and that spurs a subsequent investment by private entities and then an investment by homeowners who buy the homes and who have way more invested in interest in the community when they own the house versus I'm just renting a dilapidated apartment. So all of these things play into, you know, this reinvestment. It's really a multi-pronged thing. And I don't know that there's a whole lot of better ways that we spend tax dollars than in that, you know, in that lane.

Yeah. And I think that for investors, you know, it's one of those gut checks, right? It's like how much value do you place on your dollar? And, With respect to the desire to maximize ROI and you say, I want to, I gotta get my money out of this, I gotta get my money out of this. Well, how much, right? Is, is that, if we're talking 20% or 15%, because that's what, you know, that's what we get asked is you CRA need to reduce my risk in order for me to do what you're doing in the community. I want you to reduce my risk so I don't lose my shirt. And the response to that is, well, when you draw up your product, make sure one, it's something that's comparable, you know, that it fits the community, right? Don't just go out and design a house that, you know, you gotta sell it for $185K to recoup your investment. And because that's not the marketplace that we're here to serve. And the other is how much risk realistically are you willing to take on? Because guess what? Oh, when we do projects, we take it all on, right? When we do it, we take it all. And not only do we take it all, we angle at the quality of life when we do it, where we say, you know what, is one more thing going to improve the quality of life for the people in the vicinity? And if that answer is yes, then we chase it, we spend the money and we go do it, you know? And so I would hope that as private investors start to look at the programs that we do have, that they start to maybe lower those numbers and say, it's worth more for me to have a connection in the community with the people that I'm going in with here and that will potentially be neighbors than for me to maximize that dollar on the output side.

Right. Well, and it's a different mindset when you're walking in. I'm going back to what you said earlier, and that is your personal kind of mission is to advance communities.

Yes.

And so if you're coming in to advance community, then that is going to probably reduce what you're needing as a return on your investment, but you also need to make it make sense. So that means, you know, if it doesn't make sense, that's okay. There's no sin in that. But there is a reality that this is a different kind of return on the investment. This is a community investment as opposed to a money, get my money back investment. I want to, this is a question that I wanted to ask earlier, but it didn't fit. I don't know that the average listener knows intimately what gentrification means. So I would like to have just a, not a textbook definition, sure, but more of a, of a reality check of what is gentrification and how, how are we avoiding gentrification through the CRA and what are we doing to make sure that the public is aware of that story?

Yeah, man, gentrification is a sore spot and only because We didn't come on here thinking we weren't going to talk about the tough issues, right? Oh, listen, that's— it's hard because when you go into a community, the goal is to work with the folks who are either in that community or to move them along with you in lockstep, right? As you bring in projects or develop an area. And ideally you accomplish that. Otherwise you're bringing in a bunch of money, right? Because the money makes the decision. So then The folks who have the money come in and then they start bringing their friends with money who say, oh yes, we don't need this in this area anymore. And so you start to push out the folks who are now, who have historically occupied an area, and before you know it, you got a completely different community than you started with. And so I think the way to combat that, and I won't even say combat it because you do need fresh money to to invest in communities. And ideally it won't all be government dollars that go into a community. So for us it's been finding the right partners and finding folks with a community-driven mindset who want to give back. And so I think that the perception that, you know, the CRA just goes in and buys up an area to gentrify it or support that gentrification is, you know, it's, it's unfortunate that folks kind of put that narrative out there, but communities change over time. And some— the other part of that is the people who live in those communities realize they have an asset and they start to sell them. They start to say, "Yeah, oh, you like it here? Well, I'm going to move somewhere else." And, you know, I think that it's just a combination of factors that start to play in where the community naturally will change. You know, the Yard on Mass folks have been great because when one of their founders, Matt Patrick, he was telling me about his time in Little Rock and how, you know, he watched a community just sort of grow around a business there. And that's what they intend to do here. And the great thing about him, he said, man, we're not afraid of Talbot House. You know, we are here and we're part of the community and we're gonna hire some people from over there to help us here with our grounds and to do things here on our site. And it is because they build community, right? They build community, they believe in community, and it is something that runs deep in their business model.

It sounds like it's really just a big balancing act. Everything is all about figuring out where the balance lies, and it kind of changes as the, you know, what do they call that thing that back and forth? Pendulum. Pendulum. As it continues to shift, you know, you're just constantly finding that equilibrium, finding that place that's going to work. And I think with human nature, you're never going to have it perfect. So the ability for you guys to see what we can do better, what's not working, and what we can improve as you continue to go down this journey is something that I am thrilled to hear and see in action. You know, I don't think it's just all, you know, lip pop, you know, just lip service, lip talk, lip service.

Not editing that.

Well, and I just, I want that to be the essence of, of this conversation. We didn't— we're not getting into the weeds of how the CRA operates and what a good project is or a project that isn't appropriate or whatever. It's just really an overview of what the CRA wants for the community that it's serving and how to get in contact with them. But I do, before we wrap up, I just want, you know, what are you excited about? What's coming? What's the newest, greatest, latest things that you can share?

Yeah, on the books, I would say I'm very excited about residential downtown.

Okay.

I mean, that is just like, it is just such, it's such a need. And I think that the downtown businesses will tell you the more people we have living down here, the more we'll thrive. And right now the Murraton Project, 300 units, Framework Group coming here, they've done projects in Tampa that are just phenomenal quality. Very excited about them. They're under construction now just north of the police station. And then, you know, Summit being downtown, right? Another employer, 500 employees. Yeah, big employer. But you know, I mean, when you think about the number of people that will be milling about downtown to spend their money, you know, you ask any downtown business what the challenges are and they'll tell you it's getting people out on the street level.

Right.

To spend that dollar. So where retail is, falling by the wayside, we're doing things to help make sure that, you know, we can continue to thrive. So I would say those are things that I'm excited about. And then also I'm excited for Midtown because we've got, we just approved at the board level an infill affordable housing land bank where we'll be working with small builders to hopefully to give away land to some degree so that they can build affordable housing.

Oh, cool.

Forgive some, yeah, provide impact fee reimbursements to make make sure that they see the value in building on some of these city and CRA-held properties. So, you know, it's programs like that that will help take us to the next level where we've got tons of vacant property throughout the city and we need to have affordable units. So we're trying to capture those units, right? To me, those things are super important to the longevity of the community. And then also I'll give you one for Dixieland. It's How do we further the arts and make sure that we got a road diet on the horizon? We're gonna do this test to see if that's the right thing to do. And I can tell you that anybody who lives in the vicinity of South Florida Avenue certainly does not enjoy the idea, right?

Of that change.

Well, they want the change. What they don't want is for people to be cutting through their neighborhood at 60 miles an hour. So the fact that we wanna slow down traffic and help preserve that corridor that is historically significant. I think that people will appreciate it once they start to slow down and see it. So, you know, we're going to help do some things to make sure that the road diet is attractive in the CRA. And that's what we do. We supplement across the board. We supplement housing, commercial development, transportation projects, you know, capital improvements. We do it all. But I'll say that the— because we have so much going on, You know, I probably won't hit it all, but the other thing I'm really excited about is arts, the partnership with the school board that we have right now. We're working on a shared use path for Lake Parker, the lakefront. And, you know, it's about a 1-mile segment where we're putting in some student art. And it also—

Awesome.

Yeah. And it'll attract people to the lakefront. And I'm hoping that it'll turn into a regular annual or biannual program that we do with the school board to get new student art out there.

That would be great.

And that's ownership, right? That's getting kids to go into an area area they wouldn't normally go into and convincing their parents to take them down there to look at their art or their friend's art, and then doing it again and again and again to, to get that community buy-in and, and, um, and, and help them see that Lakeland cares about their opinion and, and we want them to stay here in the community for many years to come. And we are running out of time. And our, the last 10 years of my life flew by. The next 10 years are going to fly by for the redevelopment opportunities And if only half of those are in good fiscal, you know, just atmosphere, right? Where, you know, folks really want to spend proactively. Well, that's half of that time. So we cannot be in planning mode. We really have to go out and get you all projects that generate taxable revenue so we can keep your taxes low during the downtimes.

As you were saying that, how the last 10 years have flown by and the next 10 years are going to fly by, an image of your little girls just flashed through my mind as in 10 years they're not going be little girls anymore. So I don't know if you want to do a shout out for your girls, and then you can listen to this episode and say, "Look, Daddy's a star!" Never.

They, first of all, they did not think, like, under any circumstances that I do anything important, right? It's just that, "Oh, Daddy knows a lot of people." Right.

But if you mention them, then—

Totally. So Ileana and Soraya are great students, you know, they're wonderful athletes, and they play instruments. So my girls are are, um, you know, just geniuses and, and sweethearts. And so how old are they? 11 and 8.

11 and 8. So in 10 years, 21 and 18.

Yeah.

Boom.

Yeah.

God bless you.

It's over. Yeah.

Well, and I saw a cute post, something, um, between you and Nicole Travis's husband about, um, having classes for, for dads who do hair. Dads who do hair.

Yeah.

Because I think that's just a cool thing to know that you're, you know, you, you gotta figure out what to do with that mess sometimes.

Oh yeah. Listen, every weekend, uh, you know, when I'm, when I'm hanging out with my girls, I'm trying to do hair. And I keep telling them, I say, no matter how old you get, I'm going to do your hair. So, they know. And, you know, Sundays are wear your hair down for daddy day. So, that's when I have to fight with it the most. But, you know, it's good stuff.

You're a good egg, Noonan.

Yeah.

I just think you're just a really great asset to the community. And I just wanted you to talk a little bit about the human side of Elise because, you know, we can get caught up in the business stuff, but I really, I know that there's a really good heart and a good person here sitting with us, and I appreciate your time.

Well, thank you.

And we're gonna wrap up. I hope that if anybody has questions, they can go to— what's your website again?

LakelandCRA.net.

And that's a wrap. Thanks for listening, and remember, we have a new episode each week, so be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. And remember to leave us a review. We promise to read every single one. You can always find all of our episodes at ElevatePulse.com. And if there is something you want to hear about on an upcoming episode, or if you want a follow-up to a previous episode, reach out to us on Facebook at Elevate Polk.