The Elephant in the Room

The elephant in the room. This is the Elevate Polk Podcast, and I am your host, Chrissanne Long. And with me, as always, and still from a distance—

not for long—

is Rob Arturi.

Not for long. Not for long.

I am really looking forward to when we are able to record this in the studio, because this is the hardest part of these podcasts these last few— I guess we're talking about months now. Recording these podcasts from different places.

Yeah, it doesn't help the conversation, and I think that's actually something that we'll talk about in a little bit in another context. But I think it does matter. It matters when you are face-to-face with somebody. It changes things a bit. I'm excited about moving our studio to a new home and and what that means. But I'm definitely looking forward to getting back, uh, um, in studio with, with you and with guests and, yeah, and the like.

So it's gonna be great. Okay, so why don't you walk us into this discussion today?

Sure, I'll, I'll clear the minefield for you. So, um, I mean, let's face it, so we took last week off, uh, because I think we both agreed that there were issues we wanted to discuss. There's the elephant in the room. There's a lot of stuff going on in the world right now and in our backyard. But it was important to us to do it the right way and to find our message in all of this, because it's easy to just comment, make commentary on what is going on. But that's the last thing that we need right now. And our goal, our vision for this podcast, and well before any of this came out, was to take those issues and to elevate them, to do something positive, to grow from it. And this is certainly no exception. In fact, maybe it's the most important one yet.

Yeah, well, it's important because it's difficult. And when we shy away from difficult conversations, I don't know that we're going to be able to elevate. Much. So I think that while this might not be everyone's favorite topic, it's going to be important that we at least address some of our own beliefs and philosophies about, you know, our community and how we can kind of come together as one in many ways to build a stronger, united community.

Yeah. And I think it's also important that our listeners understand that we're not We don't have the answers, unfortunately. I wish we did. We don't have the answers. We are not going to solve the world's problems in a, with a local podcast. But what I think we can do, hopefully, is to share a bit of insight as to how we can get on the path to those things, because there's always going to be disagreements among people. That's— I mean, that's inevitable. And there's— that will never change.

Right.

But I think the most dangerous part of all of this is the sharp division, that crevasse that's been expanding in between groups of people. And it's happening on a national level and in national news. And it's trickling down. And it will eventually start to corrupt on a local level. I think our community is, is certainly better off than many others. It's, it's not perfect, but I don't know of one that is. But I think we're definitely better than other communities, but that's not permanent. And I think if we truly do want a better community, whatever that vision is— and it's probably unique in some way to all of us— whatever that vision is, we need to do it a certain way. And I think that starts with a mutual respect and understanding, uh, of the fact that we may not agree, but that's okay. And that we can all respect one another as people and find a path forward.

So talking about the elephant in the room and me as the individual person that I am, caring and committed to always trying to do the right thing and not always being able to do so and feeling like I'm not qualified to have conversations. I I really did some soul searching in the last few weeks and woke up one Sunday morning with a message on my heart and afraid to share it. And I'm gonna just go ahead and share it for the audience so that we can sort of craft the conversation from there. Um, I reached out to all of my Black friends, um, that I had cell phone numbers for and sent this message to them individually. And just because I wanted them to know I was thinking about them and that I wasn't gonna shy away from this discussion and that I wanted them to know that I cared. So this is the message that I sent to my friends. Good morning. I haven't really figured out what to say, and that usually ends up with me saying nothing, and that's not the right thing to do right now. I wanted to reach out and ask you to consider how we can be supportive in a meaningful way during these times. Guide us, educate us, and let us know what actions would be helpful and productive. Please know that I am here and willing to participate in any way I can be helpful in bringing about positive change. I want to stand with you. I love you, and I am hurting as I watch helplessly. And the series of conversations that spun out of me sending that message to my friends has been really reassuring at the same time that it's humbling because I opened up the dialogue and I allowed my friends to talk to me as a human with an understanding that I cared. So we're close, we're friends, we're not standing on opposite sides of an issue. We're standing on the same side of the human issue of kindness and love and being together as a community, but also as friends. So I start there. I don't know if you wanted to add anything before I kind of wove into some of the examples and stories that kind of came out of that.

Well, I think, I think what, what I would add to that is the fact that what you were just talking about is illustrative of my greater point, which is on a one-to-one level, we are not each other's enemy. And even though that this is a, a time of, of— there's a lot of racial division in, in, uh, in the public square and in conversation, I find in my experience, as you did, that when you, when you go on a one-on-one, when it's one person talking to another person, things change a bit. And I think we have to be mindful that while there is— there are certainly considerations that people have based upon where— who they are, what they look like, and the life that they live. And what their experiences have been, uh, that creates a different, a different perspective for different people. It's important to remember that sometimes I think we can look at these, at these narratives and, and at these binary choices where we're all supposed to be as part of different groups and somehow identify with those groups and then make assumptions about the other groups. And it's been my personal experience that when I go outside of that, when I have those one-on-ones— and you had a great post about this— when I have those one-on-ones, all of that kind of goes away. And it's not that we all agree on everything, but we see each other differently and we realize we're not as far apart as we think we are. And I, I find that that in and of itself is a huge step into making that kind of progress that you're, you're talking about.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's uncomfortable sometimes because we are so comfortable not talking about some of those topics, right? Like, it's not socially acceptable sometimes to bring out some of these discussions over dinner or, you know, in a casual conversation. So we're not very well practiced in it.

Yeah, well, that's a conversation. I've had that conversation many times because I You know, in my personal life, I used to like talking about politics. I'll be quite honest with you. I haven't really been into it for, for a while. But the, the fact is we have had this longstanding rule of sorts that you shouldn't talk about politics or religion or social issues, that those are divisive. And consequently, and I, and I get that those don't always they, they tend to be a bit, uh, fiery, and people are opinionated. And if you're having a dinner party, you probably don't want people getting all amped up. So we say those things, right? We say, don't talk about those things. But what's happened is the unintended consequence of that is what you just said. We have an entire generation or two of people now who are incapable of having those conversations. And now we're living with the fact that we need to have these conversations. But you're right, it is easier to not have the conversations because nobody wants to be labeled, uh, or, or, or defamed or insulted or insult somebody else. And we're so afraid of having the conversation that we don't have the conversation, and as a result, things get worse.

Absolutely. Well, and silence sometimes indicates lack of caring. I think that's one of the important issues that I realized is if I just don't say something, it could be perceived as that I'm not interested, that I don't care, that, you know, whatever. So I think it's important that if we're coming from the right place, we're coming from our hearts, And we address and acknowledge that, like you said earlier, we don't have all of the answers, but we're also not just going to stand idly by and not engage in dialogue with people we care about. So I'm going to— I've been given permission to kind of, with my own discretion, so hopefully I don't mess this up, to kind of share some of the responses from these friends. So Nicole Travis, is the director of economic development and community, community and economic development in the city of Lakeland. And her response right after my text, which is, you know, when you send that text and you're like, you kind of take a breath, you're like, okay, did I say the right thing? Did I use all of the right words? Are they going to be offended? Is this going to be hurtful in any way? And so, you know, I'm that space between that waiting for the response is really, you know, there's a lot of tension in the air for me. And so Within a few minutes, she sent me a response back. Thank you for sending this text. Let's talk. Zoom, virtual happy hour, whatever. The one thing that is helpful now more than ever is to listen. It's not to say that you don't understand, because I know you do, but by listening, it will help people of color vent and for you to gain additional understanding. And those two things together will birth ideas of ways to help. Love you dearly. Let's talk. And so That's it. We want to birth ideas of ways to help, but we can't really birth those ideas if we don't talk about it. Right? I mean, that's to me how entrepreneurial, you know, ideas come about is just through talking and exploring and giving, you know, something new a chance, right?

Yeah. And I think what's worse is, you know, I've had a few conversations over the years with, with similar types of situations, not specifically the most recent ones. And what I found in those is that if you talk to somebody about their experience, about the things that they've dealt with in life, you can have a much more meaningful conversation. But when you don't have those conversations, what happens is people tend to adopt the generic conversation where the generic narrative on whatever side it might be becomes your story when in reality, reality, it is not. It isn't your story. It's just a looming narrative. And because many of these social narratives are, in my opinion, intentionally divisive, because there, there is, there's power in, in dividing people. I think it's a horrible practice, but it happens. And I don't want to get too far into the weeds with it, but let's just— I'll leave it and say that there are people out there that benefit when people, ordinary people, are fighting about things like this. And I think that's a tragedy for, for us as people and as a country. But what I find is, is that when you have those conversations like you did and it's, it's, it's Nicole talking to Chrissanne Long, the conversation is much more productive because even though, again, you may have different perspectives and different opinions, you're speaking from your own, your own conscience, your own lives. And that's very important because again, going back to what I was saying earlier, you're bridging a gap that is much closer together. Because when you start to just— when you just adopt those external positions, they are so far apart because they've been engineered that way that it is almost impossible to bring people together. They just dig in. And they start to defend a relative position rather than talking as people. And then we wonder, we wonder why things, you know, just devolve into madness because we're not talking to one another and we're not listening to one another. We're just shouting at one another.

Exactly. And it all gets obfuscated. And when people are confused, they say no. You know, there's a saying that Craig and I always use in the marketing world is, you know, a confused mind says no. So if you're trying to convert somebody over to a sale from a vision of marketing, how it works, you bring them down the funnel. They've got to be clear on what they're actually buying. If they're confused, they're just going to turn around and walk the other direction. In this case, it's making sure we're clear, but once you've built that trust, and that's the other discussion that came out of some of this is that I wouldn't really be able to feel like I could send these messages if I hadn't established the trust, because I'm being vulnerable and I know that they're vulnerable. And so being able to be vulnerable in a trusting relationship is essential, especially if it's a healthy relationship. But I think the problem that's lacking sometimes in many of these public conversations is that the trust hasn't been built. And we have to work at trust, right? You can't just meet somebody and, and say, okay, now I trust you. I mean, the initial feeling might be, I really like this person, I'd like to get to know them, But, you know, would I trust them with my life or would I, you know, are they going to be the kind of person that does what they say they're going to do? And so that comes with time. And all of us working toward this common goal allows us to feel like we are all working in the same direction, swimming in the same direction, rowing in the same direction.

Yeah. And I think the, the point you made about, about kind of moving in that, that same direction, it is, it is really important for us to make those connections as, as people, as individuals, right, to share those stories. Because even if— because that's what we take with us, right? That's how you, how you learn, how you grow. It's important to understand not just what you believe, but what those around you believe as well. Because if you don't, then when you have other conversations with other people, you, you will revert back to what you think the other side believes based upon that larger kind of global narrative. But if you have a contrary perspective, if you have— and I'm not saying I don't want to use you and Nicole or, you know, make— assume that you guys are on polar positions here. But my point is, is that when you realize the person in front of you you may not agree on everything, but they're not so far apart. When you have these conversations with other people in the future, that's a point of reference in your mind that will influence your thoughts, your opinions, and your approach to it. If you don't have that, if you don't have any real-life, tangible, relevant experience in the conversation, your default is just to adopt whatever the media tells you the other side believes. And I have found that on both sides using that, you know, the, the, the, these two— let's distill everything down to two sides in this, right? That people on both sides don't hold nearly the number of beliefs that we are told that they do. And on an individual level, and this is a point I have made for years in having difficult discussions with people, that we, we do not have those— the majority of people don't have those same disagreements. They don't, they don't hold all of those beliefs. Okay. And whether you're talking about, you know, white and black, man and woman, the majority of people don't hold this laundry list of opposing beliefs. They just don't. They just don't. And those, in my opinion, in my experience, that idea that they do is one of the biggest barriers to actually engaging those conversations to begin with.

Mm-hmm. Well, we don't like to be wrong, right? So that's another challenge too, is that we, we, we hold these very extreme dichotomous ways of thinking that my way is right and another person's way is wrong. And finding empathy sometimes is a very difficult thing to do, even though the closest thing you can do to being able to walk a day in another person's shoes is by being empathetic and trying to put on the mind of what it would be like. The closest thing you can do is just imagine. Um, and we don't necessarily want to get into that, uh, way of thinking sometimes, you know, it's just easier to live the way we've always lived and to understand the world through our own lens. Um, but in order to really truly be changemakers or elevate anything, we have to see it from another perspective, not try to change somebody's ideas because those are their experiences and that's how they arrived at the place that they are. But to truly look at them as a human being and say, I didn't live the life that you've lived and you didn't live the life that I've lived. Now that we agree on that, what can we do to bring our community closer together? Or what can we do to find a common ground and build on that? And that's really, to me, the key is to find where we are all in agreement because it's not about your experience, you know, because nobody's lying about their experiences. Their experiences are their experiences. I have talked a lot of times about overcoming my own negative self-worth thinking, you know. And so while I was thinking horribly about myself, that was my reality. That's where I lived in my space. That's how you wouldn't be able to talk me into telling me I was a great person because I wasn't gonna Listen. So we also, we have to find the common ground and that's where from a mental health issues side of things, we need to talk about that. But I feel like there's so much opportunity here for those of us who want to create a better place for our community together. That is where we need to start because there are always gonna be people who think differently, who are angry. I shared, people who are angry are just really hurting people. So it's gonna be hard to spend a dial dialogue on a healthy conversation on somebody who's just spinning all of their wheels on being angry. But I think, let me go into the next example, kind of the response that I got from my next friend. Is that okay?

Of course.

Okay. So the next person that I have a— I want to share just the dialogue, kind of a summary of the dialogue. I don't think I have a text message directly that I'm going to read verbatim, but Chandra Frederick, who is the Assistant County Manager in Polk County. As a friend of mine, she was in my Leadership Lakeland class, in the best class ever. We all have to say that, but all of our classes are incredibly wonderful. So in my conversation with Chandra, my takeaway with her is that in order to succeed, a Black woman has to buy into a system and whether or not we agree on that philosophy, because I think you and I have talked about it a little bit. It's like, you know, if you want to succeed, you can. And I don't know that I can ever say that's true or not true. I'm just going to say that the personal narrative of the experience someone has had is very real, and it's very tangible to me to hear the pain that comes from a person who says, I feel like there's nothing that I can do because in order to get to this place, I feel like I've had to be silent. And that to me broke my heart because I felt that my beautiful friend Chandra and many other beautiful friends of mine have felt that they had to kind of go along to get along in many situations, but they probably saw things and felt things and experienced things that were contrary to what we're talking about, you know, the human side of life that we believe in and we espouse, but not everybody was buying into that. And so along the way, Some of their own philosophies have been muted. And I think that that's a challenge because the greatest thing we have is our ability to open to free thought. That's an American right and privilege. But at the same time, some people feel like they don't have that right. And that is something that I think we can work to change.

Yeah, I think we have to understand a key difference in a lot of this, right? This is an area that we as, as people are often lousy, uh, and it's that we have to separate facts and opinions. And we— that's the first part. The second part is understanding that it is not always productive. And this is something that I've struggled with. It's not always productive to try and refute one with the other. In fact, most often it's not. And that is a very important part of having this conversation, because if, if somebody tells you, I'm bothered by X, and you say, well, X doesn't exist, the conversation ends, right? But no progress has been made.

Exactly.

There's, there's no nothing, nothing good come. Now, you might both be right. In fact, I would argue that you both are right. But what is the goal here? And if the goal is to, to heal and to bring people together and to find common ground in a crazy world, then we have to be willing to understand that some people out there have opinions that are based upon things that you might not think are real. But those opinions come from somewhere. And by refuting a fact— now, if you're arguing fact to fact, then, then, yeah, sure, you can do that.

You can't argue 4 4 8, right? Nobody's going to convince anyone that that's not true.

Right, right. But if— but what you have to look at is, okay, so you're, you're upset by a situation, and I don't think that situation exists the way that you think that it does. So let's examine how we arrived at this point.

And but first, before we get to that, we have to listen. And that's the overwhelming message that I have heard. And Nicole's response gave it to me. Chandra's response gave it to me. Conversations that I've had since then. All of us, if we are not people of color, and even people of color, we all need to listen. Listen to each other. And then get to the point where we can start talking about solutions. I don't think we jump right in and say, hey, let me figure out how to solve your problem, because we don't really truly understand it, first of all. But second of all, we have to build that trust. And how we build trust is by listening to the other person and making sure that we're completely understanding the perspective that they're sharing, whether we can empathize or, or not, you know, we have to be able to get to that point. We're saying, okay, and if I understand you correctly, how we can solve this problem is X or Y or Z. And is that correct? Am I hearing you correctly?

Yeah. And then, and truthfully, there may be some problems that we cannot solve, right? There, there might be some things that we cannot, you know, gaps that we cannot bridge. And I, although I hate the the cliché, and people use it all the time, agree to disagree.

Um, but sometimes that's the best way to carry on and maintain a relationship and a friendship until a solution can be found, right?

I, I don't like the phrase, and I don't—

because it's very flippant, it's dismissive.

Yes, but, but I, but I understand the idea, and I'm— I fully support the concept, which is we are all more than the sum of our opinions. And I am a very opinionated person.

No way.

I know it might shock you.

By golly, I had no idea that you were opinionated.

But I say that as somebody who is extremely opinionated and I have lots of opinions on lots of things, but that's not my world. And I don't look at other people as the sum of their opinions. And I don't try and select people who I associate with based upon whose opinions are like mine, right? The biggest danger that we face as a community and as a country overall— but I'm, you know, focused more on the community side of it— is the idea that we are part of select groups and that we are, we are relegated to, to those groups. I reject that opinion. I reject it wholeheartedly. And I find that some of my best relationships and friendships over the years have come from people with whom I don't agree on many things. Mm-hmm. But it makes life interesting. It keeps, it keeps me on my toes and in debating and discussing things. But it also reminds me that we can have disagreements on things, even if it's facts, whatever it might be, we can have disagreements. But as long as we have shared values—

Oh, that's so important.

Yes, we can get there. Now, there are people in this world that don't have shared values. There's a lot of people out there now making a lot of noise whose values I completely disagree with. And unfortunately, there's very little progress we can, we can make. However, I hope if you've listened this far, the most important thing that I can say is, is this: as bad as you think things are and as divided as you think this country, this community, this world is, we have— the division in values is far smaller than most people think. Most people in this world, whether you're white, Black, Asian, pink, purple, whatever, most people want to raise their family, be safe, live their life, and, and, and, and go on. Right. They're not looking for conflict and chaos. And that's a thread that spans everybody everywhere. And I think if we start with that and understand that we overwhelmingly are all bound by values, that we can make progress from that and that those— that progress, that connection is more important than those areas that we disagree.

Right. Well, and so to go back a little bit, and so let me give one actual direct quote from a response to Chandra's conversation, 'cause this is gonna set me up to the next part of what I wanna share. Basically, she said, "To answer your question, I don't know what you can do. I think you have to do what you feel comfortable doing. And honestly, you have to speak up about what you care about. You have always been able to make a platform for what you care about." That's your gift. And when she held up that mirror for me, I knew I had to have— we had to have this episode. I knew we had to talk about it. This is our platform. Elevate Polk is our platform. And so in order for us to truly elevate the conversation, we're going to have to have this conversation. As uncomfortable as it may have been to get started, I think, I think we're doing a decent job. Um, but I also want to talk about the fact that I've been trying through Bridge Local to have an economic inclusion conversation for the last 2 years, and I haven't gotten anywhere. I realize now the error of my ways. I wasn't engaging with the folks that now I am engaging with. I am now kicking myself in the butt saying, if I had just reached out to Chandra and Nicole and Elise and Ahmad and Lisa and Kia and Ashley and some of these friends of mine that I've started these conversations with a lot more intentionally, they would've given me some tangible feedback on how to move forward. Because what happened since these conversations started is that we've had kind of a better together dialogue on Zoom with a focus on people of color and economic inclusion and economic inclusion from my perspective for the business community. And it's trying to bring more people into the a dialogue about how to do business in Polk County with a mindset of shared values. And so I had one conversation this past weekend that was like, it made it crystallized for me, crystal clear what we're shooting for. So in the referral world of, hey, I'm looking for somebody to paint my house, or I'm looking for somebody to fix my roof, the consumer is given a lot of opportunity opportunities to pick a business to do the business with, right? So, you might pick the business based on a number of reviews they have or the cost of the quote that they give you or who the person was that referred them to you because if they say they are great, then I'm sure that they are. But the dialogue that I had this weekend was this, if I'm going to do business with someone, I want to know that I share their values. If I'm a person of color hiring a contractor to do work in my home. I don't want to advance their commerce, right? I don't want to do business with someone. It's kind of like voting. If you, if you're purchasing something, it's like a vote in favor of supporting that business. I don't want to do business with someone who's completely contradictory to my values. And so what she had said to me was, I went to their Facebook page, I saw some things that were completely contrary to my beliefs. And they made the decision to hire a different contractor simply because of that. And you have the right to do that as a consumer. And so we're able to elevate the dialogue of, we share these values, we hold these truths to be self-evident. This is our obvious, you know, battle cry together. These are the businesses that we want to do business with and these are the businesses who we want to support. Does that make sense?

Sure. Absolutely.

So I'm just excited to, to know that opening these dialogues with friends has opened up other dialogues toward a bigger conversation. And I think that's the goal is, you know, if we don't talk about it, like we said earlier, we're not going to get to a point where we can truly create change. And you know me, I'm— that's what I'm all about. I want to make the world a better place. That's my legacy. If I don't walk that walk and just talk about it, then I'm just a liar and I don't stand for anything.

Right, and I think one area I wanted to make sure we included in this was the— I know how much between whether it's Bridge Local or just your use of social media to kind of get things out there and to reach out and use it for in a positive way. However, comma, what I have seen online is a, a real— the, the entire conversation devolving, you know. And you made a post recently about it's hard to, to hate someone up close, right? And it was a It's a brilliant, brilliant concept because I enjoy online discussions, but the truth is I prefer to talk face-to-face because I find it's easier for me because I say the things that I genuinely believe. I'm not just out there regurgitating something. So—

I feel the same way, except sometimes I say weird things like, "By golly," in real life. So I try to connect my words in advance when I'm writing so that it gives me that safe space to make sure I don't say goofy things that I have to keep saying over and over again.

Right, right. Well, but I, I find that online we are— what do we have online? We have profiles, right? We have things that we like, we have things that we follow. We essentially are the opposite of what I was saying earlier. Our online presence is oftentimes the sum of our opinions, and those those boxes and preferences that we check. And it is very easy for us to be pigeonholed and to pigeonhole others in a virtual environment because you're not seeing the whole person. You're seeing a profile. You're seeing an identity that is written out. And I find that, but when you look at— by looking at people in that oversimplified way, coupled with the fact that the anonymity, oftentimes anonymity, and at best, you know, or at least the fact that you're not in proximity to get punched if you say something, gives people the freedom and the courage to say things that not only would they not say in real life, but that they probably shouldn't say in real life. And all of this is just inflammatory and unproductive. And we are watching the death of civilization in many ways.

Such a dangerous slippery slope.

It is, because we're not, we're not engaging all of the aspects of civility, right? And what it takes to, to, to be around one another and to coexist peacefully, because we're in this online sanitized environment where we can say things and, and do things and not be accountable the same way, right?

So this is what Malcolm Gladwell Chrisanne Long talks about in his book Blink. I think the term he uses is thin slicing. In thin slicing, it's basically we're using a very narrow set of— very narrow amount of information to draw a conclusion, to come to a factual— we're going to walk around with this fact in our minds because we drew this conclusion based on, like you said, someone's profile or one post or how they dress or whether they smiled when we walked by or not. We're just— because as human beings, we're so many interactions in a given day, right? And we have to make these— we have to draw these conclusions quickly. It's a survival mechanism. We have to— we have to go, we have to move, we have to do. And so in the book Blink, he talks about how we have to kind of make sure we cauterize that a little bit so that it doesn't get out of hand, so that we're walking around with these beliefs in our minds based on very narrow amount of information.

I agree. And I think that understanding that is the first step in kind of transitioning these conversations from polarized, distant online channels and really refocusing those to one-on-one. And I urge people to do that because I truly believe it has been my experience in many phases of my life that when you engage somebody and when you listen to them and they listen to you— and I don't— I push back a little bit on the idea that one, one group needs to listen exclusively to the other. I think that we do. I think we all need to listen to one another.

Yeah, 100%. It doesn't work. Just— it's not a one-way street, right?

It's not just about catharsis. It's not just about venting and blame, because then that builds resentment. Right. If I'm forced to sit quietly and just listen and say nothing in response, that's not a healthy response.

Exactly. Exactly.

That, that it may seem nice, but it's really just patronizing. And below the surface, you become resentful.

Right. And I also— very important point that came out of another conversation with Lisa, Lisa Sunshine. She and I had a discussion. And I think the important point, the takeaway was to also have self-care. We also have to maintain our own healthy minds, right? So there's the question that we worked through together when we talked. She asked me, you know, I don't want to discount like the pain and the reality that people have endured. And this is just a— this could be a broader conversation amongst this Don't let yourself be the person who is the untrained therapist. Sometimes therapy, you know, it's cathartic to share, and it's important that we listen. But when it starts to get to a point where we have to help the other person to heal, that's a professional discussion. We are not— I am not capable, I am not qualified to, to resolve some of these harrowing experiences for people, right? That's just not something that I can take on because I'm going to bring my myself through something that I've got to— I've got to keep my life alive, right? My— I can't just lay all the way down and say, okay, I'm just going to be here for everyone. So we have to also maintain those boundaries and respect each other's boundaries, I think, is an extremely important point. But when it gets to the point where, okay, it's— I'm time— it's time for healing, seeking a mental health counselor or therapist is going to be huge for a lot of people. And we also have to just maintain that a little bit of that distance because I have to also protect myself. And that's not a selfish thing to say. It's how can I continue to help the cause if I'm not strong enough to continue to help? Does that make sense?

It does. And I think another benefit of that is there's— there are definite challenges that we face in the world today and in our country today and in our community today. However, things are very different than they were, you know, 50 years ago during the civil rights era, and thankfully. It doesn't mean that we've arrived, but we're— we've— we have made a lot of progress. But things have changed a bit, and I think sometimes we get— we get— things get muddied. And what I think— you said self-care earlier— I think we all need to understand that most often the biggest obstacles in our own lives is ourselves. And we, we have to understand the role that we play as individuals and the role of empowering ourselves to do things, to do everything possible we can to improve our own lives, our own positions. If we do that, then we can see those external forces more clearly, and we can make better decisions. But if you don't really have an understanding of where you fit into your own life, it becomes very easily— easy to blame others and to look externally for all of these things. And if you wonder why things can't get fixed, is because sometimes you're— some, some aspects are, are of the problem are real, and some of them are just kind of lumped in. And that makes it hard for real change, real progress to be made. And it's not dismissing, you know, somebody's feelings or what have you. But if you really want positive change, you have to look— and this goes beyond just a racial— this isn't anything.

That's why I said it's a broader conversation.

It is.

It is across all of the boards.

It is. But it starts within each of us. And the next step out from that is those in our circles. And expanding that conversation and doing it in a way where people feel comfortable talking to one another because others are willing to listen. And we can hopefully make some progress towards a better community.

And after we listen, then we have to formulate those solutions and create action plans. And that's the discussion. So I've been, like I said, I've been talking about economic inclusion for 2 years. There hasn't been any buy-in or any traction, so it just kind of stays stagnant. But in one of my other discussions with Latrice Moore, who teaches entrepreneurship at Polk State College, she said we have to get past this point of window dressing. We have to get past the talking of the talk and start walking the walk. And so that's where I am right now, is focusing my energy and my attention on creating solutions and action plans so that we're not just going to sit here and talk and talk and talk. It's important that we talk so that that we listen long enough so that we understand the challenges and the nuances of those challenges. But I think at this point in time, my focus is to be directed, my energy directed towards outcomes that are meaningful and productive and positive. And so I don't want to sit and, you know, I think I have to do enough of that sitting and listening to truly be able to understand and then be able to take action that's going to lead to a better place or a better world. Better together. You know, we've been using that a lot.

I agree. And I don't— I can't really say it any better. I think we all, all of us want the same thing. Yeah, the vast majority of us want the same thing. We just have to be willing to, to be humble and be patient and be respectful of one another. And I hope we can get there because the alternative is not good. There— this is not a situation where one side wins. And I think, you know, the— if I could put a cap on everything, my, my, my opinion of all of this is this is not a case of, of one side versus another. If there are two sides, if two sides emerge and become, uh, hardened in all of this, we lose as a society.

Yes, absolutely we do. And so I'm going to put my cap on here, and this is the last little shout-out, I guess, of this episode. But Ahmad Taylor sent me a text message prior, it was like in May, it was actually on my birthday, he sent me this text message. He didn't know it was my birthday, it just was happenstance, but there are no coincidences, I'm convinced. So it's a quote from William Hutchison Murray. It's often attributed to Goethe, but it is actually traced back to William Hutchison Murray. And the quote goes like this: Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back, always ineffectiveness. There is one elementary truth, the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then Providence moves too. All sorts of things begin to occur which would never otherwise have occurred, and a whole stream of events issues from the decision raising in one's favor all manners of unforeseen incidents and material assistance which no man or woman could have dreamt to come their way. Therefore, the question shifts from how can this be done to the affirmation, I will do this. And the one that people have probably heard is the end of that quote is, if you can dream it, whether you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. Begin it now. So that's how we're going to wrap up this episode unless you have any other thoughts you wanted to add at the end here.

I can't, I don't have any more eloquent than that. So.

All right. Thanks for listening. And remember, we have a new episode each week. So be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. And remember to leave us a review. We promise to read every one. You can always find all of our episodes at elevatepolk.com. And if there's something you want to hear about on an upcoming episode or a guest you'd like us to invite, reach out to us on Facebook at Elevate Polk.