The Problem With Diversity

The problem with diversity. This is the Elevate Pulp Podcast, and I'm your host, Chrissanne Long. And with me, as always, is Rob Arture. So what are we going to talk about today?

We are going to do our absolute best to discuss what I will call the problem with diversity while remaining completely apolitical.

Ooh. Well, and we're not going to make any enemies because this isn't about— this is more about inclusivity than it is about diversity. Right.

We have had this discussion for hours. So we're going to attempt to do the Cliff Notes version.

Yeah, we're going to try.

Because yeah.

So I did a recent poll in the Bridge Local Community. I'm going to kind of read it because that will help you know what people were responding to and then what the results were. Based on your personal experiences and observations, do you think Polk County in general is entrepreneurially inclusive? So I gave some context and information about the question so that people could be informed about what I meant by inclusive entrepreneurship or entrepreneurially inclusive. So there are a lot of conversations going on around the country, really, on this topic. Studies are being conducted to assess different communities' entrepreneurial ecosystems. And while it's difficult to know how inclusive a community is without investing in truly understanding the perspectives, experiences, and attitudes of a broad base of entrepreneurs, it's time for us in Polk County, I think, to start having this conversation. This is what Wikipedia says: inclusive entrepreneurship is about supporting entrepreneurs from all backgrounds by creating a genuinely level level playing field. Say that again. Genuinely level playing field. This involves understanding and then overcoming the barriers faced by different people in different places. It's about unleashing the creative potential that people have within them and using this to create a more sustainable future for all of us. So the question was, do you think Polk County is entrepreneurially inclusive? And the results you were surprised by?

Drum roll.

Well, let's talk about what you thought and you responded early on in the poll.

Right.

And what, give me some of the thoughts you had when you read it and what you were thinking you would, the results would be.

So, okay. Upfront, my answer to that poll was yes, that it is economically inclusive.

Mm-hmm.

And you're a white male.

I am.

In your forties.

Just about. Damn.

Well, sorry. Let's do that again. In your 30s, approaching 40s.

I'm in my late 30s, already looking like my 40s.

So sorry, I didn't mean to say that.

I have no hair now.

Right. You shaved it off.

I did.

And there's some gray stuff.

I know.

And I think of you as my, as my, like, you know, equal. So I'm in my 40s and therefore I thought you were my age.

Well, I'm not offended by it because when I was 16 and the guy at the local store thought I was 21, it was great.

Yeah.

It just catches up with you. Right. So we'll leave it at that. But that said, my answer was based upon the fact that I think that there are no specific obstacles that exist based upon immutable things like race, gender, et cetera, on a broad scale, right? So I have a lot of opinions on the diversity issue, but I have more opinions on the fact that, or the way that we would actually correct said problems. So you use the word level playing field, right? My interpretation, or my opinion rather, is that there is no level playing field, period. So there are, if you're a, I am a white male, but, I was raised by a single mom. Now, if I was a white male and my father was a heart surgeon and I had a lavish lifestyle growing up and all kinds of money to do whatever I want, would we have a level playing field? Now—

Would the Rob Arturi raised by the heart surgeon in a lavish family life growing up and the Rob Arturi with a mom, a single mom with struggles, would that be a level playing field?

Would that other person have advantages that I don't have? And my personal belief is that the answer is yes, that there are people in this world. The one answer I, I enjoy debating these identity politics issues because, and again, outside of the political realm, but we're talking in the business context here, but it's all the same because I think that people create many of their own obstacles and they also assign obstacles to, their lack of success. And long term, that actually becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Correct. And I do agree that there is a percentage or there's some attribution of this going back to our previous podcast where it's talking about putting yourself into the conversation or keeping yourself out. So there is a dialogue that is important to empower ourselves and empower others, especially those who feel marginalized to be a part of the conversation and feeling marginalized versus being being marginalized, you know, that's the— there's nuance there, right?

But it's an important nuance, especially in a day and age where people are less equipped today to handle and process nuance.

Correct.

That's where I think a lot of the problem—

very muddy. Yeah, it's very muddy. So let me, let me, let me make sure that I make it very clear where I stand on this situation, that I live in a world in which I embrace learning so much. I immerse myself and I fully expect to know that there is a world of information that I don't know. So I know I— the most, probably the most intimidating thing to think about in life for me is that I don't know what I don't know. And I can only see life through my lens. And so my opinions and my ideas and everything is based on the life that I live, but I'm also looking out and saying, you know what, it's probably different for an African American woman. It's probably different for a Vietnamese male. It's probably different for someone with a GED that didn't finish high school, but then later on got their life in one pile and, and then completed that, or didn't get their GED, but then started mowing lawns and then eventually decided they were going to run their own company. So, yeah, I think that the The level playing field is a misnomer because I don't think it could even be possible because we're all coming at life from completely different circumstances. And even my brother and I are coming at life from two different circumstances because he's a boy and I'm a girl and he was born 4 years ahead of me. And, you know, there's all different things. So no, no twins might be the closest thing to having the exact circumstances. Identical, identical twins. That's, that's it. So I don't think that this is a negative, that there's not a level playing field, but I think where we, where we really need to be focusing in is getting people to the point where nobody's keeping them out of the game, right? Nobody's blocking them from achieving something, although the deck may be stacked against them. And we need to figure out if it is and where it is and how it is and how we can take that deck and, and, and make it more equitable for others. That's That's my position because I don't think we know enough about all of the details of different places people are coming at this from. So if I look at it and I say, "No, I don't think so," it's probably because I'm a female, but also because I've talked to a lot of people who come to me and share challenges that are like, "Why is that happening?" And I don't know why. It might be because they're not qualified or it might be because they're an African American. I don't know. But if it's one versus the other, We need to be able to get to the heart of the matter.

And I agree with that. And I know that our collective opinion on this is very much in line, but from a little bit different perspective. My focus is simple. We spend a lot of time, meaning we, society overall, addressing the cause of the problem. And I feel like we spend an insufficient amount of time addressing the potential solutions for the problem. The reason is because I think that the solution isn't what a lot of people want it to be. And people have found ways to capitalize on that. There is a big money, a big industry in the victimization business, right? So everybody out there needs a knight in shining armor that's going to mow down the obstacles in front of them. My feeling is the opposite. That doesn't exist. It's impossible to do it in that way. The opposite is giving people the tools to overcome adversity versus eliminating said adversity.

100%.

Right? So the fact— I think we're able to talk about this from— because I think fundamentally we both have the same perspective, which is if you— and I believe it's the only perspective that you can have if you genuinely want people to succeed. And I know you do, right? And I do as well, which is why we have that same thing, which is now when you look at people who constantly drone on about all of the other oppressive forces and say, "That's what we need to address." Right. Right? So the idea that because somebody is a white male and they have a perceived advantage over somebody that is not, there's advantages and disadvantages with women. That we talk about as if some of them are intentional. But you really have to go back. I mean, it's hard to deny that that has changed dramatically in our lifetime.

Right.

Right. To the point where now it's really hard to say that just because of your gender, that there's this massive oppressive force.

Right.

What we conflate is that there's genuinely differences in people and men and women are not the same.

Correct.

And we don't take those things into account.

Right.

So we choose different paths. We do different things for different reasons. So it's very, very complex. But again, we focus on the fact that all of this gets attributed to the fact that, well, I'm a woman, you're a man, so therefore you have it easier. And then what I find is the absolute worst is we make it their fault. We assign blame to any man because whatever they have, they got it easier than a woman, right?

And I, I come at it from the data, okay? So when, when I'm looking at this from a glit— like, why? What's the solution? Because I want to figure that out. But I also want to know how, how the problem actually has manifested itself in Polk County specifically, right? I could care less of the national statistics, right? We are, we are unique. You and I are unique. My brother and I are unique. So, so there is no way that you can just pull this blanket and say everything that the data says in the United States is applicable to Polk County 100%.

Sure.

So with that being said, if the national statistics say that 1% of financial capital is invested in entrepreneurs who are African American and less than 2% is invested in women who are entrepreneurs. I want to unpack that in Polk County. Is it the same? Is it less? Is it more? Is it better? Is it worse? Is it what it needs to be? Are there just not enough entrepreneurs who are in these two particular, like, that I'm using right now, data sets to be able to raise that bar? But if we're looking at that data, then we're setting ourselves up for the argument to be made that the playing field isn't level and there are these challenges for entrepreneurs who are African American or female or Hispanic or Latino.

So I think the point of the survey isn't to identify the problem. The point of the survey is to gather the data so that we can have a compelling reason to dig in.

Sure.

No, no one is digging into this data in Polk County. They're doing it in other communities across the country.

The Kauffman Foundation I follow avidly and they're doing and they're a lot of all All of this is kind of trickling down into communities like Polk County from there and from other places as well. But to me, the challenge is we don't know anything uniquely to Polk County that can help us create solutions, viable solutions for our entrepreneurs in this community from an economic standpoint. That's where I'm standing.

I didn't— I had no issue with the poll.

No, I know you didn't. I'm just wanting to make sure for the audience, this isn't about you and me. This is about who's listening to our podcast. I forget that there are people listening. I really just want them to know where— what's Chrissanne's agenda? The agenda is I don't want to depend and rely on national statistics or even regional statistics because we're lumped in with Orlando and Tampa, right? And we're not Orlando and Tampa.

Very true.

So that's where I'm coming from. I'm passionate about it too. Can't you tell?

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Well, I studied economics in college and I am no stranger to the awful world of statistics. The funny thing is when you look at these things, these data sets, often when you're trying to do like we used to do in economic forecasting, you hold other variables constant so that you can essentially solve for one variable. So what do you want to know? Well, if we want— income or salaries for women to be equal to that of men will hold everything constant, right? The problem is when you do that, you ignore other significant variables.

Right.

Right?

So Polk County compared to other counties has a, although I think it is better than it was years ago, a higher rate of teenage pregnancies.

Right.

Well, that rate of teenage pregnancy does affect the rate of female entrepreneurship and the ability for women to earn at the same rate. So if you are starting— you start having kids when you're 15 years old and you have multiple kids, it's very hard to get the education and get on a track to do those things. So chances are, when you enter the workforce, it's going to be in a very low-paying, low-skilled position. Now, if you just look at the data and you go, wait a minute, women make, you know, what are they, 75 cents on the dollar or whatever. I hate that statistic because it is so distorted.

Well, it's the data can tell whatever story you want it to tell.

Exactly.

And I'm not going to say that I want the data to— we just don't have any. Like, we don't even have a story.

No, you don't have an agenda. But the difficult part for us is I know on this issue, your goal is genuine and you want to get information so that we can do whatever we can do to make things better for the most people possible, right? Great. I'm with you. The problem is that even if we collect the data and we don't attempt to use it in a way that is for a specific agenda, we have to acknowledge that we are living in a world, whether it be for even here in Polk County, where consensus and public opinion is already shaped by those distorted perceptions.

Of course.

So I gave a talk because I'm involved with Junior Achievement, have been for years. And then they asked me to give a talk to some kids over the summer, like at-risk youth. And I go and talk to these kids. I'm supposed to do this main presentation and I, of course, kind of went off script. And you can imagine.

No, you.

Right. But one of the things I asked them, because they were all African American, I asked them one question. I said, "How many of you think that your race is going to make it more difficult for you to succeed?" Right. About, I don't know, that's about 80% raised their hand. I said, "How many of you think that it will not matter at all?" And about 20% raised their hand. I said, "Okay, so here's the answer. You're both right." Right? Everybody is right. Now, I look at this—

Explain what you mean by that in case—

I know what you mean.

Well, what I mean by that is if you go through life believing that you are preordained to have less success simply because of your race, gender, ethnicity, sexual preference.

Education.

Education level, whatever it might be, then chances are you'll be right. Because you will be essentially fighting battles that don't need to be fought, and you'll be banging on the wall rather than looking for the door. And I've always been one of those that You know, when you look at the problem, is your goal to solve the problem or to complain about the fact that the problem exists?

Right.

Because a large part of our world and here locally, if you listen to these local politics and people complaining about different things, you know, like we talked about in an earlier episode that some people just want to complain.

Right.

They just want to shout at the wall and complain about it. So I think there is a lot of value in determining what it is, because I think, you know, like one of the questions I ask, is there value in diversity?

Right, right.

And my short answer to that is no. And I get a lot of criticism for that.

Well, yeah, because you're not— there's no context, right? Well, that's true, because we just talked about being in an echo chamber, and in an echo chamber there's no diversity, and therefore you would want to be able to have a diverse set of ideas, thoughts, and opinions, right? Based on a recent conversation we had.

Right. And I am totally—

So there's no context.

Right. But the reason I say it like that is purposeful, because today when you talk about diversity, when you use that word, most people think race, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference.

Right? Perfect. So you're setting me up for where I'm going to take it next.

Right.

Okay.

I look at it as the one thing they leave out, which is diversity of thought. Because to me, that's the only thing that's important. I don't believe there's any inherent value of having 5 people that have different skin colors or sexual preferences, whatever it might be, if there is no diversity of thought. Simply because we look different doing something together isn't an inherent advantage. So that's why I say, and it's somewhat of a prod, but there is no inherent value in just looking different, which is why I think that you actually lose value when you forego good options for the sake of diversity.

Right. And I will— I'm going to cut you off there because I really want to go where the inclusivity discussion goes.

Right. That's the alternative.

Right. And so if you lump them together, then you kind of start thinking of them as the same thing.

Which they're not.

But they're completely different. And so when we started talking in Polk County, specifically Lakeland, Mayor Mutz, when he was running for mayor, was spearheading some conversations about inclusivity and economic economic inclusivity specifically. And I wrapped my head around what that meant at first. I mean, it was the first time that I had heard it, so I didn't really know. So I dug in and I did a couple Google searches. And what you find is that they are pretty much lumped together, diversity and inclusivity. But my definition of inclusivity is one that is not exclusive to any of the conversation data sets, points. Now that's all big if you think about it. So I envision this big spreadsheet. I actually started to create it, got a little exhausted, but I envision across the top all of the different ways we are diverse, not just ethnicity, not just gender, not just age, but also educational background, political position, political alliances.

First-generation immigrant versus, you know, how many years in Polk County, that kind of thing.

Sure. And it's, it's, it's, it's enormous.

So yeah, when you—

when we go back to what we were saying earlier, it's like the level playing field isn't the point.

The point is how we are attacking success for ourselves and taking on— taking ownership of what is—

what we're capable of.

So if we go back 15 years, I was miserable. I sucked at life. I was a failure.

I was—

everything about life was just awful. I was a victim and I had a victim mindset. I wasn't a victim of anything. I was just a victim of believing that the deck was stacked against me, that I sucked and there was no hope for me. I had all of the external support that I needed. I had a mom who loved me, who thought I was very smart and beautiful and supported me in everything and bailed me out of every problem that I found myself in.

I, I just had no self-esteem. I had not low self-esteem, I had no self-esteem. And so I just sat. I was depressed. I would sleep. I would put myself into this pit of despair because, oh, woe is me, this didn't work out for me. Oh, woe is me, nobody loves me. Oh, woe is me, whatever. And that was my life. And so what, what happened, what transformed me was just, I'm gonna try a different way and I'm gonna fake it till I make it. We talked about that in another episode, um, but I'm gonna I'm going to do it long enough to prove to myself that I am a piece of crap or I'm not. So it was like I didn't have enough days strung together trying to do a better version of Chrissanne Long. So I said, all right, I'm going to do this for a year. And if after a year I still feel like I'm a failure, you know, I'm just going to give up. I'm done.

Right.

But what happened in that year when I was faking it till I make it was that I started to see value in myself and I started to see opportunity and I started to see success and I started to feel feel like a good person and I started to act like a happier version of myself. And all of the pieces behind that started to unfold. So I can— I mean, I could claim the Hispanic card. I'm 50% Cuban, right? I can claim being a woman. So I am a minority and in all intents and purposes I am, but I don't look like one and I don't act like one. And I don't want that to be the reason that I'm given an opportunity. I want to earn it. And I want it to be mine because I am the best person for the opportunity or that I can achieve that goal or I can make that thing happen. And so in spite of where we started this conversation, I didn't think we were going to get to this point. I wasn't planning on talking about the yucky version of Chrissanne Long.

But the point that I'm trying to get to is that when we can look at the data and see something, we can all tell the same story.

So if we believe in our minds that the deck is stacked against us and it's skewed white male or, you know, all of these people get all these opportunities, we can't flip that script very well.

I wholeheartedly agree. And your take on all that is the reason that we're friends, because it is my opinion almost to a tee. But it goes back to the fact that we both do want the best for people.

Yeah.

And what you described is not just the way that you did it, it's legitimately the only way that you do it. You cannot, and this is a conversation for another episode, but I have a real, I'm real anti-Dr. Spock. There was a—

Yeah.

The idea we could build—

Is he still publishing his book?

I don't know, but oh man, I'm not a fan of burning books, but if we did, I would start with that one because I don't think You can't build your child's self-esteem. And all of this notion of we could just make you believe in yourself. Well, kids, you develop self-esteem by overcoming adversity. That is the only way you develop self-esteem. You didn't have, and you said it perfectly, you had all of these advantages, right? You had a good family. You didn't grow up in the streets of, you know. No.

I have no real victim story. I was just a person with a victim mindset.

But the fact is, the only way that you overcame that was by facing that adversity. And when you were able to do that and you could do it incrementally, the fact that you're able to overcome small hurdles yourself and— but not deflecting on something else, but when you did it, that's how you build self-esteem. That's the only place that it comes from at all.

Right.

I think the value in this, and the data is important because it makes a compelling case, but I think the message is even more important that if you want to find the strength to overcome these issues, it isn't in sitting in a room or at a town hall meeting or whatever it might be or on Facebook complaining about the awful overlords. My thing is—

It's in doing the thing.

It is.

It's in the thing you're doing. And doing it maybe badly at the beginning. Maybe you're mediocre right now and you're just right. You're just at it, hacking at it, hacking at it. Because boy, I can tell you how I hacked at it. You should see our first logo. You should see our first website. You should see all of the things that we were hacking, right? But we grew because we started somewhere and then we built on that. So let me— I don't know how long we've been talking, but I really want to get to the actual, like, —results of the survey. Yes. So we want to make sure we do that. And I think the most compelling, most exciting part to me was that, I mean, yes, the statistics of this very unofficial poll, right? I mean, this isn't like statistically correct or I don't know, probably wouldn't hold its water anywhere. But we had 66 votes saying no, that they don't think Polk County is entrepreneurial inclusive. And then we had 40 votes that said they're not sure. And then 20— and I'm sorry, 32 said yes, they think that Polk County is entrepreneurial, entrepreneurially inclusive. And I think what that—

the compelling part for me is that there are almost as many people who voted that they don't think it's inclusive, that they don't know. And I think that's my point is we don't know what we don't know.

Right. And if we're going to— if we're not— that anybody's listening, really, maybe hopefully they're listening to this podcast, but nobody's listening from the leadership of the Polk County community on the topics that I'm kind of throwing at them.

I'm kind of like that. I'm like that really annoying bug that never goes away. I'm buzzing, buzzing, buzzing, buzzing, and everyone's kind of swatting at me.

I'm there, I'm there. But they don't really— I don't think they don't want me there.

I think they genuinely like me. But the conversations that I'm bringing to them are challenging them in ways that they don't know how to solve the problem. Right.

But we have to, I think, be aware that there is a reason to look at this information so that we can say, no, we're actually really doing better than the average in the nation. I think maybe we would find that out if we spent the time to look at it and then also offer some support in the empowering and in the shoring up the cheering side of things, encouraging. And because, yeah, I mean, you can— I had to do a lot of it myself. I had to get over myself. I had to get out of my own way. Right. And I had to change my own tape in my head about what was going on. Well, maybe some of the listeners don't know what a tape is. Is. So I had to change the— what's the digital version of a tape? MP3? The message that kept playing over and over and over and over in my head that it was a trench. Like, you can't get out of the trench unless you create a path up and out and over. Right. And that takes a lot of work. And so now I'll admit there are days— I mean, preparing for this podcast was kind of like a memory of that. That zero self-esteem. Why do I have to talk about— why does anybody care about what I have to say? And this was that old script that was going on. And I had to say, no, I'm going to get uncomfortable. I'm going to do it. I'm going to trust Rob. He has my best interests at heart. He thinks that what we are going to talk about is going to be interesting. So let's do it. But it didn't happen because somebody came and bailed me out. It didn't happen because someone helped me out of the trench. I did have to dig that my way out of it.

So what you're describing in all of that can be distilled to one word, fear. Yeah. And the willingness to face it versus the much easier way of creating reasons why that fear is well-founded. Right. Right? And that's much easier to do, but it certainly doesn't breed self-esteem. And it, I know it sure as hell doesn't breed success. Right. I want to see, because I think this, this, the goal, the journey here is worthwhile for everybody involved because I'm a huge proponent of small business. I don't care where they're coming from, what they're doing, but I want more people doing it. And one of the things that I think we can do is, in addition to looking at the data, is to kind of promote that message, which is you gotta get a little tough. And you gotta face some fear, fear of failure, fear of inadequacy, whatever it might be. But the biggest, in 2019, the biggest, most oppressive forces that are in your life are almost undoubtedly in your head.

In your head. A lot of it is, that is 100% true.

And those are the ones that are the most difficult to overcome. And the ones that we tend to attribute the least. Right.

Well, and there is still a very real basis for some of this conversation outside of overcoming the fear. And sure, because if the, if the information is thus that access to capital is a real problem for people who are not in a certain subset of the data, then there can be measurable outcomes to a different end that we can kind of start shifting toward, or whatever other tangible barrier that exists that would come out of an intentional effort and understanding the entrepreneurial struggles of the Polk County area. Because some of my— our struggles in Lakeland are going to be different than Fort Meade. Our struggles at Winter Haven, Haynes City, Frostproof, there are entrepreneurs in every corner of this county that all have different challenges and we're only just starting to have the conversation. This is just the very, very, very beginning. I don't feel that I've made much traction. I don't have a lot of momentum yet, but I'm still taking that positive risk of being the bug in the ear saying, hey, we need to have this conversation. It's important enough. It is because there's, there is that piece that we need to have entrepreneurial education, that it is yourself that you have to be prepared, you have to be resilient, you have to keep at it and consistent and showing up and all of that stuff to get out of your own way. You're your own barrier.

But then we need to figure out what other barriers can we maybe move together towards, you know, removing, you know, if we can create some more angel funds, angel investment funds or capital, you know, opportunities for specifically for some of the underserved areas of entrepreneurs. We're winning.

I think it's easier than that because I don't know, I think nowadays the angel money is there, the investors are there. What I think is lacking and the reason that it gets pushed into this, the cultural diversity angle of race, ethnicity, sex, gender, all that stuff is because there's a cultural difference in what you're aware of is because we We don't teach entrepreneurship in schools. We teach diversity, but we don't teach entrepreneurship. Truth. Right? So, which is, to me, it's counterintuitive, right? Why aren't we focusing on common ground versus we're all different, but then show us how we can work together. I think that the biggest problem is not that minorities don't have access to capital because they're minorities. It's not as if these, different business funding companies and things. It's not like they're your local banker who's, you know, has a white hood in his closet at home and is saying, I'm not, you know, those days are horrible. And thank God that that's not the life that we live today. Right. So my point is, is that it's very easy to assume that that might be something that you're dealing with, but more than likely, it's that you're not aware of those options that are out there for you. Right. And how do you get aware of those and figure out how, which ones to avoid, all of that. Right.

And some of the, some of the dialogue that's out there in the other communities that are doing this work, as far as just the inclusive entrepreneurial ecosystems, right. Have discovered that it's really the network that you surround yourself with that makes you believe that you can go out and start a business. And so if you've never had anybody in your life, in your neighborhood, in your, in your, in your community, you know, section that has has done that, stepped out on faith and created a business and tried, then you don't see that as an opportunity or a possibility for yourself, right? And so now it's starting to go, okay, well, we need to encourage the opportunity. We need to kind of shore that, that we need to strengthen that dialogue in these areas that have not had that opportunity, because it's available to anyone. But if you don't know how, if you've never seen anyone ride a bike and someone planted a bike in front of you, how are you going to learn how to do it, right? You've got to have somebody help you keep your balance, figuring it out, doing all of that. Exactly. And, and that's where this conversation, I want it to take us, but I can't get us there because the data doesn't exist. That's why I started asking some of these questions that I hope we're going to talk about, you know, as we go through this podcast, because they're really just based on we aren't talking about it. And if we're not talking about it, then how are we ever gonna fix it or say, hey, we're good, we're actually better than anybody thought we were. But we don't know that because we're really not talking about it. And we're not doing any data collection, data gathering, research that is based on the idea that if we knew this stuff, we could create solutions for it. We could help areas of the community that had— that are based on that data underserved and start to serve them in a better way.

I agree. You know, my, my point on this is all this is— it's not a zero-sum game for one person to be successful. Somebody else doesn't have to give up their seat. Right. And, and any true entrepreneur knows that. Yep. And growth through collaboration and that sort of thing is invaluable.

Well, just thinking about competition too, knowing how important competition is to success and to improving your game. So when I— what I said about our very first website and our very first logo, I knew it sucked. I knew I wasn't looking at it going, this is the best thing ever. You know, we're going to be winning awards with this stuff. But it was all I could do. And so I'm sitting there comparing myself to other, you know, other businesses in the community. Going, I'm not good enough, I'm not good enough, I'm not good enough. But you know what? I want to be. Sure. So I'm going to work on it, and I'm going to make it better until it can be polished and look more professional. And when I was able to hire a graphic designer, that was the best day of my life, because now I didn't have to depend on me, who has zero artistic skills whatsoever, to create something. Um, and, and I had some, some resources. But it didn't start there. It started at caca. And maybe on our website we can have like a picture of, of, you know, what the original logo looked like, because it It was, it's pretty bad.

Well, but that, that evolution is something that is worth sharing. And that's what draws people into that, that inclusivity, that inclusive environment. And it's things like education and awareness more so in my opinion, than removing obstacles. It's really about being a magnet to draw people towards that path to success.

Right. Well, and sharing our struggles. Right. I mean, I don't know that you've ever shared any struggles. I don't— did you ever struggle? I don't struggle. No. See, but we have to— I think we have to peel back the onion a little bit and get real, because if you— and I think that might be a really nuanced piece of this as well, because I don't know how you started your business, but I do know that I didn't have any capital. I didn't have an— I didn't have a nest egg. I didn't have— I was like unemployed. I was creating a job for myself because I had none and I had been driving to Orlando and it wasn't working and I was spending more money on gas than I was making in my, in my hourly. So I was like, I'm just going to find a job that I can do and I want to do this. And so I tell you what, created our job.

I tell you what, next episode. Oh, next episode we're going to, we're going to share the struggles.

Oh, it's going to be the struggle. It's the struggle episode. Let's talk about that on the next episode. Yeah. Because I know that this one, this one is really not about the struggle. Right. But we need to know that we can talk about it. I think that's the thing is I, I, I think we wanna protect, like going back to, you know, the echo chamber and, and the, you know, the online persona and, you know, and the authenticity. The authenticity. Yeah.

Because it isn't easy.

The more we can tell that the struggle is the struggle, the more people will look at it and go, oh wow, you know, that person's so successful. Oh, but they struggle too? Oh, well then maybe I can. And getting us out of our own trenches or our own, you know, our imagined barriers is really important. All right. Well, that's all the time we have. Thank you for listening and make sure to subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. And don't forget to leave us a review. And if you have something you want to hear about on an upcoming weekly episode, reach out to us on Facebook at Elevate Polk.